Kubiak and Wade Phillips are 7-0 and Rick Smith is.....

Don't shoot the messenger but... what does this have to do with the Texans?

 

He's won as many Super Bowls as... take you pick of the usual genuinely mediocre QBs that have a ring: Rypien, Johnson, McMahon, Dilfer, Hostetler... So I don't think winning *a* Super Bowl invalidates anything, especially when the Colts won their Super Bowl almost in spite of him (he was really bad that postseason, and not just by his lofty standards, either).

What sticks out to me is how often his teams are one and done; that's significant, IMO. Not winning a Super Bowl ever year - that's a ridiculous standard. But when you're very often the best team in your conference, when you're very often playing at home... well, you should have a much better showing, IMO. And when you compound that consistent underachievement with his own individual underachievement - which spreads across two franchises, four coaches and countless teammates... it's really hard to see him as anything beyond a significant underachiever in the postseason.

Again, there are few players of his caliber who have a greater discrepancy between regular season results and postseason results. It's really striking, and it's a knock he has carried at least since college.

Just Manning (Colts + Broncos) v. Belichick/Patriots (2000-2014).

 

The list of QB's who have played in 3 SB's, while winning at least one impresses me more.

The list of QB's who have led two different franchises to SB's is also impressive.

A tad dramatic. In the end, he's a lesser post season player who still was able to lead two different franchises to SB's, one at an advanced age. And another year a Raheem Moore f up away.

This was fun... Time to get back to more relevant discussion. Feel free to pm me your response. I'm standing by my opinion of his post season accomplishments are still worth noting.

 

Troy Aikman 3–0
Bob Griese 2–1
Ben Roethlisberger 2–1
Kurt Warner 1–2
Peyton Manning 1–2

That's not a terribly impressive list, frankly - not a single one of those QBs is anywhere near Manning, in terms of individual accomplishment. And yet... there he sits, at the bottom of the list, as he seems to do on a lot of playoff lists...

It's actually a remarkably unimpressive list: Warner and Craig Morton. But it IS, indeed, an impressive feat as we know Manning was a driving force behind the Colts' and Broncos' overall success.

Dramatic? That's a fairly benign, objective overview of his postseason career, IMO. He has far more often than not been a 1 or 2 seed, and he has authored more 1-and-dones - while playing below expectations - than any other QB in NFL history.

And speaking of dramatic, he was "a Raheem Moore f up away"... from making a championship game.

But funny you should mention that game... yeah, sure - everyone remembers Moore's whiff - but it didn't lose the game; it only sent it to overtime, which is when Manning threw an interception that led to the game-winning field goal. Manning also threw a pick-6 earlier and was outplayed by both Joe Flacco and Trindon Holliday. For Manning, it was his 8th career 1-and-done...

 

I thought we were done with this... should have said "at least" 3 SB's... as it is, you didn't have to limit it to just "exactly" 3SB's, if you include Montana, Brady, Bradshaw, Staubach, list gets better and better (and guys like Favre, Young, Eli, Flacco don't make that list).

In the end, its better than saying Manning is basically Mark Rypien... now that's dramatic.

 

Agreed; it is a much more impressive list:
Tom Brady
John Elway
Terry Bradshaw
Joe Montana
Roger Staubach
Jim Kelly
Troy Aikman
Bob Griese
Ben Roethlisberger
Kurt Warner
Peyton Manning
Fran Tarkenton

BTW, only one player on that list has an overall losing record in the postseason - care to venture a guess which one?............. Yep, even Jim Kelly and Fran Tarkenton, who are a combined 0-7 in Super Bowls, have managed to put together an overall winning postseason record, primarily because they don't hang a yearly 1-and-done on their resume. They've been to the playoffs a total of 13 years and have made 7 Super Bowls.

I never said that; what I did say is that they have the same number of rings, which is a factually accurate statement. BTW, Rypien's career postseason record? 5-2.

 

I'd take an actual SB win over simply a winning record in the post-season... every single freaking time. (also, I would have excluded Kelly, Tarkenton from above list as the criteria was at least 3 SB's while winning at least one).

 

Sure; the prerequisite for winning a Super Bowl, though, is winning in the postseason. Hard to win Super Bowls when you're on your couch.

Fair enough; that puts Manning firmly at the bottom of this list, in terms of SB winning %.

...

I know you want to wrap this up... since we agree that Manning is worse in the postseason (both from a team and individual perspective), how would you explain it? Keep two things in mind: 1) it covers 24 games, or a season and a half, which is a fairly large sample size in the NFL; certainly large enough to balance out any outliers; 2) you can only lose once in any given postseason - so it's actually (in theory, anyway) *harder* to accumulate more losses; a single Super Bowl championship (as a #1 or #2 seed) requires *four* 1-and-done additional postseasons to arrive at a losing record.

Manning is 8-2 in years he went to the Super Bowl; 3-11 in the 11 other postseasons.

IOW, the losing is significant enough to essentially (from a record-perspective) bury *three* Super Bowl runs.

Why has he been *that* unsuccessful so consistently? It can't be *that* random...

 

Again, your opinion.

Given the dearth of "SB runs", and how a player is buried permanently (in terms of all-time greats) if he doesn't win one... not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The SB runs DID happen, regardless of what he did in the other years... and they frankly needed to happen to cement his place among the all-time greats.

Just like you say his large sample size eliminated "outliers"... you have nearly every other QB in his position with smaller sample sizes that allows for outliers. Brady is the only one close in terms of post-season games/appearances that had definitively had more success... and we discussed possible reasons for that (his singular coach for that entire run that happens to be considered as one of the top 2 coaches in NFL history, in a sport where the coach may be the most or 2nd most important member of an organization.

The entire premise of this discussion was people having guys like Eli/Flacco/Luck as significantly better given their post-season success (and Manning's post-season failures)... whereas a case could be made that if they were as consistently great in the regular season, and they had as many playoff appearances as Manning, the "outliers" may be weeded out (helmet catch, Raheem moore... a lot of flukes in those small amount of games that had them winning).

Yeah, now I'm done... this has been beaten to death.... lets see what Manning does in the playoffs this year with one arm/half a brain/and a coach that has some shortcomings and rehash this then.

 

Rick Smith continues to bring us down while Kubes and Phillips, who were with us two years ago, are WINNING.

Except for last weekend, mind you.

 

No.... that's not an opinion; how could a W/L record be an opinion? Even with three Super Bowl runs (which nets him a +6 W/L differential), he *still* has a losing record overall. Now, it is most assuredly my opinion that his lone, broken-clock Super Bowl victory doesn't erase his postseason shortcomings. But his record? No, that's a fact.

Why? I thought him getting two different teams to the playoffs every year was his crowning legacy? *Of course* they have to happen, because a 3-11 postseason record, relative to his accomplishments, is atrocious.

You didn't answer the question: Why has he been *that* unsuccessful so consistently?

A larger sample size is actually, in theory, beneficial to a QB of Manning's ilk because it'll even out possible ridiculous blips, like a helmet catch, or a Moore whiff, and let the cream rise,which is, if given enough games, exactly what great players do. But Manning, far more often than not, sinks.

Maybe it's because he doesn't get to play teams like the Texans, Jags and Titans twice a year in the postseason? But if that's the case........ doesn't that invalidate, to some degree, his regular season performance?....

 

Frankly, PeePee Manning's legacy is far more interesting than the 2015 Houston Texans......

 

Its your opinion that the W/L record would invalidate 3 SB runs. It doesn't for me.

Playoffs by itself, without winning it all, would be very hollow... even if he had a winning record. Getting two different franchises to the SB? One as a geriatric? That's not so bad.

Because he hasn't been as good? Because he's generally faced better teams? In the end, he was able to win it all and make 2 other SB's... so he still was able to be good enough for at least "that" much. Like has been said before, he hasn't been the first QB to ultimately break through after initial playoff lack of success.

He beat better teams than that on his 3 SB runs... including the Patriots twice and the Ravens twice.... so no, it doesn't invalidate it.

As much as you want everybody to agree with you that Manning's playoff short-comings some how invalidate his success'... its just not going to happen. I know you're going to keep responding with the same information over and over again.... as will I... and you'll never be able to convince anybody how its possible to "invalidate" SB runs... especially not from a championship-starved/depraved fan base.

 

Yeah having Peyton Manning helps with that winning record, even if he's not playing well he gives the team a better chance of winning. The Texans? They don't really have an identity, as I understand it we're trying to copy what the Seahawks are doing in Seattle.. but we sort of have to have a good QB first or a consistent defense right?

 

That's not what I said.

It's the stuff of LEGENDS... like Craig Morton.

Try this on for size: 57 different QBs have started a Super Bowl - eight have overall losing postseason records:
Billy Kilmer
Ken Anderson
Kerry Collins
Neil O'Donnell
Daryle Lamonica
Dan Marino
Matt Hasselbeck
Peyton Manning

So here's the question... did Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger, Eli, Favre, Warner, Wilson, Rodgers (etc., etc., etc.... 41 etc's, to be exact) NOT face "generally better teams"? Was that wholly unique to just Peyton Manning?

Well, *a lot* of people already do agree with me... It's not like I created this myth - again, that's why I brought 25-year old Steve Spurrier quotes into the conversation; it's an idea that's been around for a looooooooong time.

But honestly... I keep engaging because it's fun; I enjoy articulate, cordial sports talk/debate.

 

Forget regular season entirely, pretend it doesnt exist and its only a postseason round.

If ___ team is #1-2 seed for 13 seasons with a bye week, starting at home,

And that team gets to choose any available QB for its team

Then Peyton Manning is the LAST QB you go with. He is THAT much a disappointment in postseason. Tony Romo for instance, most would say the criticism Romo gets is fair in spite of his all time great QB rating. Then how can you overlook Manning's middling postseason success compared to his peers?

That said, entirety of career does count. Peyton is certainly better than Bob Griese, and certainly better than any Texans QB ever with just his Denver years alone. His postseason record affects his ranking on all time list, it doesnt tarnish his overall career so much. (But if Manning NEVER won an SB, he'd probably be considered "fool's gold")

 

Difference is Peyton carried all of his teams to the playoffs. This is the only year a team is carrying him to the playoffs. Just look at how the Colts turned into the worst team in the league the one year he played. Then how the Broncos were an 8-8 nothing team until he got there then they went 13-3, 13-3, and 12-4. Not counting this season because he's past his prime and holding them back.

Looking at the list of QB's with multiple SB's I would take him over all on this list.
Bradshaw
Staubach
Kelly
Aikman
Griese
Roethlisberger
Tarkenton
Starr
Plunkett
Eli Manning
Len Dawson
Theismann
Favre
Russell Wilson
Craig Morton

 

peyton's strike rate at winning the sb only takes him out of the goat discussions not dismiss his ability as a franchise changing qb.

 

Kubes being Kubes.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/1...broncos-pulled-same-day-sets-nfl-record-yards

 

Do we blame kubiak for keeping Peyton out there too long or Wade for his awful defense against a team without Jamal Charles?