Moyer rejects Astros

[Another Brother]

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3289354

Sources: Astros' attempt to deal for pitcher rejected
By JOSE DE JESUS ORTIZ
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle
RESOURCES
ASTROS 2005


According to a high-level baseball official, Seattle Mariners veteran lefthander Jamie Moyer employed his rights under the collective bargaining agreement to block a trade to the Astros.

As a policy, Astros general manager Tim Purpura does not comment publicly on any trade discussions he has with other teams. But it was no secret among the scouts at Minute Maid Park that the Astros made a run and were rejected by Moyer.

Purpura would only confirm that the Astros were close to a deal for a pitcher who could have helped as a starter and reliever.

"I would say we are at a point where we could have had a deal done," said Purpura, who hasn't given up all hope of making a deal before the non-waiver trade deadline Sunday at 3 p.m.

Moyer, a pitcher who has succeeded because of his superb command of the strike zone, is 9-3 with a 4.33 ERA over 21 starts. He would have bolstered the Astros' already vaunted rotation while also serving as an option for the bullpen.

As a player with more than 10 years in the majors and five in a row with the same team, Moyer had the right to block the trade based on rights that are referred to simply as the 10/5 right.

Since reaching the majors in 1986 with the Cubs, Moyer is 201-148 with a 4.16 career ERA.

Purpura has been busy working the phones all week, putting his odds of making a trade at 50-50 Friday evening. By late Friday night, he admitted thinking his odds of making a significant trade were at 80 percent.

By Saturday afternoon, he dropped his odds of making a significant trade to about 20 percent.

"There could still be some minor or lesser situations that could clear," he said.

[Uprising]

eh. Too bad.

[adw]

Moyers loss.

[redgoose]

Well, i guess some people just want to go home earlier than others. He would have been a good option pitching out of the #4 spot.

[Svpernaut]

I guess we would move him or Wandy to the pen if it would have happened seeing as he is a starter and we need a lefty reliever? His W/L ratio is pretty good, but his ERA of 4.33 and 6 innings a start leaves a lot to be desired... Obviously he's probably a better pitcher then Wandy is this season, but who wants to give up nice prospects for him. If we had to give up Wandy or Backe for him I'd rather keep the young guys.

[JeeberD]

Looks like we might have been offering Burke...

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=378 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD bgColor=#0c2c56>Jamie Moyer (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.asp?leaguenum=&sport=MLB&id=3932) - S - SEA (http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse_news.asp?leaguenum=&sport=MLB&majteam=SEA)</TD><TD width=40 background=/images/dia_wt_2_trans_tr.gif bgColor=#0c2c56><SPACER width="30" type="block" height="16">
</TD><TD align=right></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR height=1><TD bgColor=#0c2c56 height=1><SPACER width="1" type="block" height="1">
</TD></TR><TR><TD>According to the Houston Chronicle, Jamie Moyer vetoed a trade that would have sent him from the Mariners to the Astros.
No word on what the Astros would have given up. Chris Burke has been mentioned in some possibilities with Houston. Moyer has a 6.79 ERA outside of Safeco this season, but he's still capable of helping a contender. Jul. 30 - 8:50 pm et
Source: Houston Chronicle (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/bb/3289354)

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Nick]

Moyer would have been pretty damn good here (with Ausmus catching his stuff). I know his ERA is 4.33, but that has to be adjusted for playing in the AL, and having to face significantly better lineups with the DH (especially this year).

Moyer has always been able to shut down big hitting teams (like the Yankees), and he probably would have been picked up SOLELY to be our 4th starter against St. Louis (which is notoroious for struggling against soft-tossing lefties).

I do also understand that he probably didn't want to leave his family all the way up in Seattle.... he'd have probably accepted a trade to LA/SD before here (even though they're in worse shape).

[mateo]

Burke for Moyer would have been a gyp.

[Svpernaut]

Moyer would have been pretty damn good here (with Ausmus catching his stuff). I know his ERA is 4.33, but that has to be adjusted for playing in the AL, and having to face significantly better lineups with the DH (especially this year).

Giving up Burke wouldn't have been the end of the world, but not one of our pitchers. Moyer's ERA is a bit misleading because he plays half of his games in Seattle's big black hole of a ball field. His ERA at home is 2.64 in 10 starts but his ERA is 6.79 in 11 away starts. I don't think he'd do too well in Minute Made with those kinda numbers. The Home/Away ]SPLITS[/B] (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=1799[B) on him are pretty crazy.

[DaDakota]

DO NOT give up Burke....he is going to be a good player..

Moyer is not a difference maker...that would have screwed the chemistry up for a bit.

Just ride the players we have.......and if you HAVE to make a trade, bring in a bat...not a pitcher.

SHEESH !!

DD

[Svpernaut]

DO NOT give up Burke....he is going to be a good player..

Moyer is not a difference maker...that would have screwed the chemistry up for a bit.

Just ride the players we have.......and if you HAVE to make a trade, bring in a bat...not a pitcher.

SHEESH !!

DD

I agree with just about everything you said, we still need a quality lefty out of the pen... but who doesn't in the NL?

[rikesh316]

Screw him, Wandy and Zeke could get the job done.

[bobrek]

If they are intent on trading Burke for a left hander, they would do better going after Romero of the Twins.

[arkoe]

We need a bat more than we need another pitcher anyway.

[redgoose]

If they are intent on trading Burke for a left hander, they would do better going after Romero of the Twins.

I had heard on the radio they were. That was yesterday, could of fell apart by now, or thinking positivley, being put together right now. But Romero is a darn good set up man. But i thought the Twins wanted a bat.

[Lil Francis]

If he wants to stay in Seattle and be out of playoff contention by June then go right ahead.

[meh]

Moyer would have been pretty damn good here (with Ausmus catching his stuff). I know his ERA is 4.33, but that has to be adjusted for playing in the AL, and having to face significantly better lineups with the DH (especially this year).

Ah, but that's countered by the fact that Safeco Field is one of the best pitcher park in baseball. Take all things into consideration, I think his ERA as an Astro might just be in the mid 4s.

I really want to know what we're prepared to give up. I just can't believe it could possibly be Burke. It would go against all the stuff the management has said about not morgaging the future for this season. Moyer is the definition of a rental player. Burke was our best prospect at the beginning of the season. Pupura must be REALLY down on him to trade him for someone like Moyer.

[The Cat]

Ah, but that's countered by the fact that Safeco Field is one of the best pitcher park in baseball. Take all things into consideration, I think his ERA as an Astro might just be in the mid 4s.

I really want to know what we're prepared to give up. I just can't believe it could possibly be Burke. It would go against all the stuff the management has said about not morgaging the future for this season. Moyer is the definition of a rental player. Burke was our best prospect at the beginning of the season. Pupura must be REALLY down on him to trade him for someone like Moyer.

Nieve, not Burke.

The Mariners also completed a deal with Houston that would have moved Jamie Moyer for two prospects, one of which was starter Fernando Nieve. Moyer invoked his 10-and-5 rights and the deal was scotched. Houston does not expect to make another deal, but the Mariners have talked with Moyer about teams to which he would accept a deal.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4274

I don't want to jump the gun because we still have 15 hours left, but this deadline is incredibly frustrating. We have such amazing pitching and we're one bat away from being a legit threat to win it all... and it seems like the front office is doing nothing about that. All sorts of outfielders have been dealt the last two days, and we need one of them... just one! The Astros have pulled off some shockers in the past, but with Purpura now saying the odds of a deal are around 20 percent, it's starting to get depressing. :(

Let's get something done Tim... time is running out.

[The Real Shady]

I don't want to jump the gun because we still have 15 hours left, but this deadline is incredibly frustrating. We have such amazing pitching and we're one bat away from being a legit threat to win it all... and it seems like the front office is doing nothing about that. All sorts of outfielders have been dealt the last two days, and we need one of them... just one! The Astros have pulled off some shockers in the past, but with Purpura now saying the odds of a deal are around 20 percent, it's starting to get depressing. :(

Let's get something done Tim... time is running out.

Matt Lawton for Nieve and Burke. Get it done Purpura.

[BigCountry132]

^^^^

Agree, one bat and we will be able to battle with the Cards. I found it interesting in that article about a Marquis for B. Giles, he would fit perfectly in our lineup and has always hit well in MMP; but its a pipe dream.

[Groogrux]

Who's been traded in the last couple of days?

[steddinotayto]

does he have too much pride to be a 4th starter?

[cuttino]

nieve (and another prospect) for moyer? thank god that didn't go through :eek:

[The Cat]

Who's been traded in the last couple of days?

Winn, Byrnes, Bigbie, and Cruz Jr. There are also the 1B types like Nevin that could move Berkman to the outfield. Cameron, Huff, Lawton and a few others are still rumored to likely be on the move.

None are all that great, but each would be a huge upgrade on Chris Burke. If we're looking at dealing a prospect with some credibility like Nieve, I don't understand why we can't look at a position where even an average hitter is a tremendous upgrade and instead focus on acquiring a player at our position (SP) with the most depth.

[BigM]

nieve (and another prospect) for moyer? thank god that didn't go through :eek:

no sh!t! nothing against moyer but isnt improving our rotation about as far down the list as you can get? certainly not at the cost of a decent prospect either.

at this point i have no problem with our team as is and the details of this trade makes me skeptical on pupura' s thinking should we make a trade.

[Svpernaut]

Winn, Byrnes, Bigbie, and Cruz Jr. There are also the 1B types like Nevin that could move Berkman to the outfield. Cameron, Huff, Lawton and a few others are still rumored to likely be on the move.

None are all that great, but each would be a huge upgrade on Chris Burke. If we're looking at dealing a prospect with some credibility like Nieve, I don't understand why we can't look at a position where even an average hitter is a tremendous upgrade and instead focus on acquiring a player at our position (SP) with the most depth.


There are no "big bats" on the market other then Manny "I'm A Plague To My Team" Ramirez... and there really haven't been any for months. All of the names you mention are NOT improvements on our current rotations of Palmeiro, Lane, Lamb & Burke... giving up two great prospects to get 10-15 more points in batting average doesn't make any sense. There are no big run producers on the board and that is why there hasn't been any action... and Purpura has said from day one that he would not jeopardize our prospects for a 3 month rental player, and I'm happy about that. It made sense with Johnson and Beltran, but it doesn't make sense now because there are no players anywhere near their caliber available at a reasonable price.

[The Cat]

There are no "big bats" on the market other then Manny "I'm A Plague To My Team" Ramirez... and there really haven't been any for months. All of the names you mention are NOT improvements on our current rotations of Palmeiro, Lane, Lamb & Burke... giving up two great prospects to get 10-15 more points in batting average doesn't make any sense. There are no big run producers on the board and that is why there hasn't been any action... and Purpura has said from day one that he would not jeopardize our prospects for a 3 month rental player, and I'm happy about that. It made sense with Johnson and Beltran, but it doesn't make sense now because there are no players anywhere near their caliber available at a reasonable price.

I didn't ask for a big bat. I'm asking for an average to slightly above average one. It's much more than 10-15 points in batting average. It's the potential for at least the threat of a home run or extra bases. It's the potential to draw a walk. It's the potential for all sorts of runs that Chris Burke simply can't provide at that position.

Chris Burke is a starting corner outfielder with an OPS around .650. That's unacceptable. If you platoon him with Palmeiro, that helps, but Palmeiro's history shows you that he's unlikely to continue his production over the long haul. I'm not asking two give two great prospects for Adam Dunn or some other big run producer. I'm asking to sacrifice one solid prospect for a reliable .750 - .800 OPS-type bat in left field, and unless you think Palmeiro's numbers will continue, we don't have one of those on this roster. That's unlikely to work if we want to contend for a championship.

Maybe Palmeiro will continue to play as he is and Purpura's faith will be rewarded... but as much as I love Orlando, that's not a risk I'd be willing to take. Maybe the asking prices for the Lawton/Bigbie types are just too high, but I have a hard time believing Nieve and another prospect (what we offered for Moyer) couldn't get it done.

[Bassfly]

I can't believe people are suggesting trading Burke, a five-tool player who hasn't even played a full season of MLB ball, for a Lawton/Winn type bat. Lawton/Winn will always be mediocre players at best, whereas Burke has the potential to be greater. I'm glad you're not the GM.

[Xenon]

I can't believe people are suggesting trading Burke, a five-tool player who hasn't even played a full season of MLB ball, for a Lawton/Winn type bat. Lawton/Winn will always be mediocre players at best, whereas Burke has the potential to be greater. I'm glad you're not the GM.

I think you need to look up what the term "five tool player" means. However, I would not give up Burke for Moyer either. He may pitch well in Safeco, but take a look at his road splits.

[Bassfly]

A person who hits for average, hits for power, can steal bases, good defense, a plus arm.


Burke's stats last season in AAA:

37 SB
.315 AVG
16 HR
.507 SLG

Has always been considered a plus defender with a good arm.

[MadMax]

A person who hits for average, hits for power, can steal bases, good defense, a plus arm.


Burke's stats last season in AAA:

37 SB
.315 AVG
16 HR
.507 SLG

Has always been considered a plus defender with a good arm.

hold up, chief. he had a great season in AAA. he ain't a 5 tool guy in the bigs. and he's not going to be.

i don't see anyone out there on the market i'm jazzed about, though. burke's numbers are what they are right now...but they're improving. and i think they'll continue to improve. i think we have the ability to win and contend this year without giving up ANY of our very few good young players.

[SuperS32]

WOw :eek: :eek: - this would have been a rip off. Moyer's career is dwindling FAST, and Nieve is maybe one of our 3 best pitching prospects - if this is the price for the guys our there, I don't want to make a deal.

[Bassfly]

Whether you want to argue if he's a five-tool player isn't the point. He hasnt even played a full season yet!! This is the first time he's seeing these pitchers. Are his numbers bad? Yes. But after some serious growing pains including him batting .179 and getting demoted, he got his average up to .260 before having his playing time cut into. He has been improving throughout the season as he gets acclimated to major league pitching. Isn't that exactly what you want your prospects to do?

This guy was our best prospect for 3 years for a reason, and some people want to trade him for the likes of Randy Winn and LAwton after watching him play for a little over half a season?

[bigboymumu]

DO NOT TRADE BURKE!!!!

[Groogrux]

I'll take Burke and our best team in the league over the last half of the season over trading a prospect away for any of the guys who were traded yesterday. People keep saying we need to make a trade for a bat, but two months is not a fluke. It's just not. OPS and whatever other stat one wants to throw out be damned.

[The Real Shady]

I'll take Burke and our best team in the league over the last half of the season over trading a prospect away for any of the guys who were traded yesterday. People keep saying we need to make a trade for a bat, but two months is not a fluke. It's just not. OPS and whatever other stat one wants to throw out be damned.

You can always get better. We havn't exactly been knocking the cover off the ball so an extra bat will help. The reason we have been winning is because our pitching has been unbelievable, and I have a hard time believing that bringing in an extra bat will mess up our pitching chemestry.

[SamCassell]

We don't need another pitcher, and we don't need to trade Burke or Nieve. Moyer saved us from a bad move by Pupura. Better to make no trade than a bad one.

[The Cat]

I can't believe people are suggesting trading Burke, a five-tool player who hasn't even played a full season of MLB ball, for a Lawton/Winn type bat. Lawton/Winn will always be mediocre players at best, whereas Burke has the potential to be greater. I'm glad you're not the GM.

Mind telling me where I suggested trading Burke for one of those?

I'm suggesting replacing Burke in the lineup for the next two months with one of these guys because Burke isn't ready this season. I'm not suggesting trading Burke altogether. Keep him on the bench or let him go back to AAA to get some starts and let's try again next season or whenever he's more ready to be a MLB starter. He's not right now.

[Groogrux]

You can always get better. We havn't exactly been knocking the cover off the ball so an extra bat will help. The reason we have been winning is because our pitching has been unbelievable, and I have a hard time believing that bringing in an extra bat will mess up our pitching chemestry.

I'm sorry, but Randy Winn, Jose Cruz, Jr., Bigbie or Byrnes will not put this team (the same team who has been the best in the majors over the last two months) over the top. It's not worth even thinking about getting your panties in a wad over not acquiring these guys.

[The Real Shady]

I'm sorry, but Randy Winn, Jose Cruz, Jr., Bigbie or Byrnes will not put this team (the same team who has been the best in the majors over the last two months) over the top. It's not worth even thinking about getting your panties in a wad over not acquiring these guys.

I'm not talking about those jokers, I want Lawton.

[NIKEstrad]

A person who hits for average, hits for power, can steal bases, good defense, a plus arm.


Burke has a noodle arm. That's why he got moved from short in the first place, and why they stick him in LF not center or right. His 16 homers were an aberration- and still aren't exactly a tremendous power showing.

I'm kind of glad we didn't lose Nieve for a rental like Moyer. I'd put him in a package for Dunn, or a similar big bat though. It's just a bad market this year, though.

If we can Lane going hot again, I think we can ride this team through the playoffs. Lane has numbers pretty comparable to Beltran- fewer RBIs, and runs, but equal steals, more homers, and a higher OPS. Who would've predicted that?

[The Cat]

I'll take Burke and our best team in the league over the last half of the season over trading a prospect away for any of the guys who were traded yesterday. People keep saying we need to make a trade for a bat, but two months is not a fluke. It's just not. OPS and whatever other stat one wants to throw out be damned.

Look where the Orioles were after two months... that seems pretty fluky right about now. Even the White Sox are trying to make a deal and they've had the best record in the majors all season.

I'm not saying we're going to crash like the Orioles have. We're certainly a good team. But the great general managers are the ones that are able to look beyond the wins and losses and see players that are overachieving or underachieving and make trades by what the future likely holds. When we were struggling, Purpura saw the team for what it was and fortunately gave it more time before overreacting. Now that we're doing well, he needs that same judgment to realize when we're overachieving.

Clemens is a great player... arguably the best ever. But a 1.46 ERA? C'mon. That's less than half the runs he gave up a year ago when he won the Cy Young! At somepoint he'll regress slightly and become closer to his norm. Pettitte is a great player. But his ERA now is almost 1.5 points lower than a typical season in his career. Sure, you can expect a little bit lower because of the AL/NL transition, but not to go from 4 to 2.5 or wherever he's at now... that's ridiculous. I'm enjoying the ride, but also expecting in the back of my mind that he'll give up a few more runs later on. Roy, while not too far ahead of his career numbers, is also having the season of his life.

As great as they are, they're all pitching slightly over their heads and are likely to give up a few more runs than they have been. As a result, our offense is going to have to pick up the slack more than they have been. I don't see how they're going to be able to do that with Chris Burke in the lineup. Maybe with Palmeiro, but again, it's unlikely he'll continue his current play. I hope he proves me wrong, though, cause it looks like that may be our only chance.

[Groogrux]

I'm not talking about those jokers, I want Lawton.

He hasn't been moved yet which is what I asked about in the first place. If we can get Lawton or Ibanez for a decent price, I'd be happy to take them. The other four aren't even worth the time it takes to argue. Well, maybe they're not that bad... :D

[Groogrux]

TheCat,

I don't argue with any of that. But if we're going to come crashing down, none of the guys who have been dealt in the last couple days are going to save us. They're marginal, irrelevant players.

[The Cat]

TheCat,

I don't argue with any of that. But if we're going to come crashing down, none of the guys who have been dealt in the last couple days are going to save us. They're marginal, irrelevant players.

We'll see. They certainly aren't the difference in a lot of wins, but they can be the difference in some close games that we know we're going to play. Burke's nearly an automatic out every time he comes to the plate against any sort of decent pitching. I'm more optimistic when Ausmus comes to the plate and occasionally when the pitcher comes to the plate (if it's Backe and maybe Roger). I agree that none of these guys are world-beaters, but I'm nervous to have such an easy out in one of the premier slugging positions. To say it hasn't been done before by a contender would be a tremendous understatement.

[Major]

To say it hasn't been done before by a contender would be a tremendous understatement.

That may be so, but has their ever been a starting pitching staff with 3 of the top 4 starters in the league? Pettite is now #4 in ERA.

If we're going to win, it's not going to be the traditional way - it's going to on the backs of ridiculously good pitching. If our pitching does regress to more traditional levels, this team isn't going to win anything, no matter if we add a bat or not (barring a Manny/Helton/etc type).

The only rumored players out there I'd be interested in at this point are Aubrey Huff or Moises Alou (ignoring of course the Heltons, Mannys, etc) unless it costs very little for one of these other guys. For the prices teams seem to be asking though, I'd pass. Another guy that could be interesting is Jeff Kent. :) Move him to 1B (he's played there some this year) - he loved it here and would probably be excited to come back and have another chance at a WS.

[Groogrux]

Were Lamb's comments about Kent the other day facetious?

[Major]

Were Lamb's comments about Kent the other day facetious?

I'm pretty sure they were. If he really felt that way, I can't imagine him saying it on air... the Astros have been pretty good about not talking bad about ex-teammates.

[T_in_Charlotte]

Just heard on ESPN radio that Moyer rejected a trade to the Braves, too.

[Blatz]

I'm pretty sure they were. If he really felt that way, I can't imagine him saying it on air... the Astros have been pretty good about not talking bad about ex-teammates.


He was making the point that they were not worried about messing up the chemistry if they make a trade. He didn't sound like he was joking to me although I did get a laugh out of it because it was such a shock to hear. I don't remember the exact question but his answer was, we had Kent last year and nobody liked him and that didn't mess with the chemistry.

That's what you are referring to right?.

[MadMax]

I'll take Burke and our best team in the league over the last half of the season over trading a prospect away for any of the guys who were traded yesterday. People keep saying we need to make a trade for a bat, but two months is not a fluke. It's just not. OPS and whatever other stat one wants to throw out be damned.

i agree completely. the young guys are improving.

they're not untouchable. if the RIGHT deal came along, i wouldn't hesitate to include Burke in it. but at this point, given the guys who've moved...i'm glad we haven't!

[Puedlfor]

Burke is improving because there was no where to go but up. He's hitting .250, barely getting on base three times out of ten - and has twelve extra base hits.

He's playing left field. He's not doing this sweeping up grounders at short - or tracking down fly balls in center - he's playing a traditional power position and not giving us anything on offense. We've played superbly the past two months - but we've done so in spite of having left field manned partially by a poor hitter. Matt Lawton would be a massive upgrade over Burke, but inexplicably the Pirates are holding on to him.

We need a bat. I'm just afraid the bat we need isn't available.

[MadMax]

Now the Rangers are saying Soriano won't be moved.

This trade deadline has been among the least memorable in terms of names moving. Cruz, Jr. and Winn aren't exactly inspiring changes.

[Baqui99]

What is Moyer, like 60 years old now? Thank God he rejected this trade. I don't want his soft-tossing ass pitching to the Cards or Braves.

[Trader_Jorge]

People keep saying we need to make a trade for a bat, but two months is not a fluke. It's just not.

People? Uh, you mean people like YOURSELF?

If we can stay in the race until June, there's a good chance that McLane and Pupura will bring in another bat or whatever it is we need.

Gosh the search function is great at calling out people who shift their argument to protect their favorite owner in baseball...

[bobrek]

People? Uh, you mean people like YOURSELF?



Gosh the search function is great at calling out people who shift their argument to protect their favorite owner in baseball...


You do know that if the season ended today, the Astros would be in the playoffs, therefore your preseason prediction that they would not make the playoffs was wrong.

[Major]

People? Uh, you mean people like YOURSELF?



Gosh the search function is great at calling out people who shift their argument to protect their favorite owner in baseball...

You should learn basic grammar. "Keep saying" implies a present tense. Posting a quote from a few months ago really doesn't apply to "keep saying".

[Trader_Jorge]

I hope the Astros do make the playoffs. A trade for a bat would have been nice, as Rocketman95 pointed out prior to flip flopping.

[bobrek]

I hope the Astros do make the playoffs. A trade for a bat would have been nice, as Rocketman95 pointed out prior to flip flopping.

So, can't changing conditions cause a flip-flop? For example, you bet me the Astros wouldn't even be contending back when they were 15-23. Would you make that same bet now? If not, does that mean you've "flipped-flopped"?

[bobrek]

I hope the Astros do make the playoffs. A trade for a bat would have been nice, as Rocketman95 pointed out prior to flip flopping.

To prove that YOU are not a flip-flopper, let's double the bet. If the Astros are 5 games or closer to a playoff spot after the games of August 31 are complete, you pay $50.00 to the tip jar, otherwise I will.

[Groogrux]

Had it been msn or rikesh36 or someother poster not named Rocketman95, Trader_Jorge would probably have slurped down another bowl of Wolf chili instead of posting.

Obsession, it's not just a fragrance...

[Trader_Jorge]

So, can't changing conditions cause a flip-flop? For example, you bet me the Astros wouldn't even be contending back when they were 15-23. Would you make that same bet now? If not, does that mean you've "flipped-flopped"?
Not a valid comparison. I will happily make the donation to CF.Net should the Astros stay in the wild card hunt, as stipulated in the bet. (Major will you finally donate?) The difference is that Rocketman95 and the other Drayton apologists were using the "trade for a bat at midseason" argument to minimize the damage done from the disastrous offseason. They basically were saying, 'don't worry about all the losses over the offseason, we're going to make another deadline deal to plug the hole'. Well, they were wrong, and it should be noted. Drayton proved he was not committed to improving the team by not getting it done -- not getting it done over the offseason and not getting it done at the deadline. Maybe Purpura is just terrible. Maybe he's hamstrung by Drayton's penny-pinching ways, which is what drove Hunsicker out of town. Either way, this team needs a bat. When it became increasingly apparent that the Astros weren't going to make a move, the Drayton apologists shifted course and adopted the 'oh well no one is out there' or the 'we don't need a bat, two months is not a fluke' argument. You can't expect to win a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP (which should be the goal here, not simply a wild card berth) when the bottom of your order has so many automatic outs.

[bobrek]

Not a valid comparison. I will happily make the donation to CF.Net should the Astros stay in the wild card hunt, as stipulated in the bet. (Major will you finally donate?) The difference is that Rocketman95 and the other Drayton apologists were using the "trade for a bat at midseason" argument to minimize the damage done from the disastrous offseason. They basically were saying, 'don't worry about all the losses over the offseason, we're going to make another deadline deal to plug the hole'. Well, they were wrong, and it should be noted. Drayton proved he was not committed to improving the team by not getting it done -- not getting it done over the offseason and not getting it done at the deadline. Maybe Purpura is just terrible. Maybe he's hamstrung by Drayton's penny-pinching ways, which is what drove Hunsicker out of town. Either way, this team needs a bat. When it became increasingly apparent that the Astros weren't going to make a move, the Drayton apologists shifted course and adopted the 'oh well no one is out there' or the 'we don't need a bat, two months is not a fluke' argument. You can't expect to win a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP (which should be the goal here, not simply a wild card berth) when the bottom of your order has so many automatic outs.

Of course it is a valid comparison. Changing situations lead to changed opinions. If that is flip-flopping, then everyone flip-flops all the time.

Early in the season it apepared the Astros needed another started and/or reliever. Over the course of June and July, the bullpen has improved and Rodriguez appears to be a bona-fide starter. Sure they could have used an extra bat (they still may get one), but I doubt it had anything to so with money.

Simple question which you can answer yes or no - Do you now think the Astros will be a viable contender for a playoff spot heading into September (i.e. within 5 games or less)? If so, then you have changed your opinion since they were 15-23 (i.e. you have "flip-flopped). If not, then let's double the bet. Which is it?

[Groogrux]

The difference is that Rocketman95 and the other Drayton apologists were using the "trade for a bat at midseason" argument to minimize the damage done from the disastrous offseason.

You are correct. Other Drayton apologists and myself used that argument since every season prior to 2005 (and as far as I know for this season), the games had to be played before the playoff participants were identified.

They basically were saying, 'don't worry about all the losses over the offseason, we're going to make another deadline deal to plug the hole'. Well, they were wrong, and it should be noted.

Wrong. We were basically saying 'you still have to play the games before you can make a determination on how the season will end. If our record indicates we have to make a deal, then we will make a deal benefitting our club'.

Drayton proved he was not committed to improving the team by not getting it done -- not getting it done over the offseason and not getting it done at the deadline. Maybe Purpura is just terrible.

Or maybe there wasn't any out there that was worth bothering making a trade for. I would've liked Lawton. Hearing that the Cubs obtained him, I'll be interested to see what they gave up to get him and what we have in our system that compares. If it comes out that we could've had Lawton for not much, then I will be the first to bitch. And if Lawton then hits .200 for the Cubs, I will be the first to say I was wrong about wanting the Astros to go after him.

Maybe he's hamstrung by Drayton's penny-pinching ways, which is what drove Hunsicker out of town.

Please prove this accusation.

Either way, this team needs a bat.

Most likely. Randy Winn is not that bat.

When it became increasingly apparent that the Astros weren't going to make a move, the Drayton apologists shifted course and adopted the 'oh well no one is out there' or the 'we don't need a bat, two months is not a fluke' argument.

When it became increasingly apparent that the Astros would compete for a playoff spot, not even a "true fan" like yourself could post one congratulatory post, instead you harp on past problems that aren't really relevant at this moment. I feel sorry for you that you can't enjoy this baseball season that has the Astros in playoff position when the month of August begins.

You can't expect to win a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP (which should be the goal here, not simply a wild card berth) when the bottom of your order has so many automatic outs.

We'll see. Four out of the last five WORLD CHAMPIONS were recipients of the wild card berth.

[Trader_Jorge]

bobrek, I really don't know how to make this more clear, but will try.

With respect to our bet, I fully accept that if the season ended today, I would lose and happily donate the money to Clutch. I'm due for another donation anyhow. He deserves it. I'm not cheap. No problem at all. Heck, I may go over and above the $25 that we stipulated. I can tell you that it won't be due to your nagging and attempting to change the bet after the fact, but rather due to a well-deserved reward for a well-run website.

The reason Rocketman95 flip flopped is because our bottom of the order still stinks. It is not world championship caliber. If someone would like to prove the case that Jason Lane, Adam Everett, Chris Burke, and Brad Ausmus are good enough sticks to lead us to the promised land, than please do so. I think the majority of rational baseball fans would disagree mightily, regardless of the recent string of wins. The flip flop occurred because the problem still exists. The problem still exists and his opinion reversed course. Totally different than our bet, bobrek. In our bet, the problem no longer exists and the facts have proven the bet to be a winner for you. It's all but decided, barring a monumental collapse. If Lane, Burke, Everett, and Ausmus were hitting .400 with 40 homers, then Rocketman95 would be justified in changing his opinion. However, as we all know, that is far from the case. That's the difference.

[Groogrux]

Winning is all that matters Trader_Jorge. If me admitting that I was wrong will prompt a congratulatory post from you regarding the team's success thus far, then whatever. I would like to know why you continue to whine and moan about who was wrong four months ago while the Astros hold the wild card lead. Why is it that you cannot be happy that the Good Guys would be in the playoffs if they started today, July 31st?

But I'm sorry that I don't feel that any of the guys traded (Lawton excluded) would push this team (the best in the majors for half a season). If my not wanting Larry Bigbie proves a statement made by me in March incorrect, then there, I'll give that to you. Hope you sleep better tonight.

[bobrek]

bobrek, I really don't know how to make this more clear, but will try.


Facts have also changed since they were 15-23 (on their way to 15-30).

1. The starting pitching has gotten stronger.

2. Lane, Burke, Ausmus and Everett are all hitting much better. Everett has hit around .265 since the end of May. Ausmus hit over .300 this month. Burke has hit .250 since the end of May and Lane .280. That doesn't even bring into account what Berkman and Ensberg have done. So while the hitting could be improved, it is not nearly in as bad a shape as it was two months ago, thus the need for additional offense has abated.

3. The relief pitching has also improved.

So to state it simply, facts were DIFFERENT back in May. Facts have indeed changed with respect to the team's needs.

Incidentally, who was the player or players you were publically advocating for the Astros to sign as free agents during the "disastrous" offseason?

[Rocket Fan]

I was concerned with the offseason losses, but expected us to at least contend even if we didn't make playoffs.

I still think being concerned about the offseason losses is legitmate because when the goal is to win the world series....it's always nice to see the team improve.


That is the past now though, so I will focus on the current team.

We clearly aren't as bad as we played for a while. Also we PROBABLY aren't as good as we are playing right now (best team in MLB good).

Will have to wait and see where this team settles at. Probably somewhat less than the current winning pace, but better than early in the season.

I will say this, although we need another bat probably... if we are only pitching 3 starters in the playoffs.. roger, oswalt, and andy could carry us on few runs..

[Ottomaton]

Man, what is it with old decaying left-handed starters and the Astros? Anybody remember Al Leiter's rejection a few years back?

Baseball-reference.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/leiteal01.shtml) lists Jamie Moyer as the 5th most similar pitcher to Leiter through age 38, for what it's worth. (It is near the bottom of the page.) Of course, Moyer is 41 now...

[Trader_Jorge]

It is quite convenient for the Drayton apologists to throw out names like Randy Winn or Larry Bigbie and say they couldn't help the team. Isn't it strange that the apologists would exclude the most talked about name -- Adam Dunn? Or other talked about names like Mike Sweeney or ManRam (a pipe dream given Drayton's purse strings)? I mean, given that the apologists spent the early months of the season reassuring us that the front office would make a move at the deadline for a bat, it just seems odd that this case of selective amnesia has overcome them...

Anyone else agree with bobrek that our bottom half of the order is world championship caliber? I don't. The rest of the league doesn't. Most fans on here would have liked to have seen a bat added. Hey, at least no one was dumped for salary purposes, like they were this offseason... Looks like the front office is improving!

[LongTimeFan]

Anyone else agree with bobrek that our bottom half of the order is world championship caliber? I don't. The rest of the league doesn't. Most fans on here would have liked to have seen a bat added. Hey, at least no one was dumped for salary purposes, like they were this offseason... Looks like the front office is improving!


I haven't heard you complain since we've been winning. Good to hear from you

[MadMax]

It is quite convenient for the Drayton apologists to throw out names like Randy Winn or Larry Bigbie and say they couldn't help the team. Isn't it strange that the apologists would exclude the most talked about name -- Adam Dunn? Or other talked about names like Mike Sweeney or ManRam (a pipe dream given Drayton's purse strings)? I mean, given that the apologists spent the early months of the season reassuring us that the front office would make a move at the deadline for a bat, it just seems odd that this case of selective amnesia has overcome them...

Anyone else agree with bobrek that our bottom half of the order is world championship caliber? I don't. The rest of the league doesn't. Most fans on here would have liked to have seen a bat added. Hey, at least no one was dumped for salary purposes, like they were this offseason... Looks like the front office is improving!

TJ --

we're 9 games over .500.

we're in first place for the wild card right now.

get the stick out of your ass and enjoy the season.

[Major]

It is quite convenient for the Drayton apologists to throw out names like Randy Winn or Larry Bigbie and say they couldn't help the team. Isn't it strange that the apologists would exclude the most talked about name -- Adam Dunn? Or other talked about names like Mike Sweeney or ManRam (a pipe dream given Drayton's purse strings)? I mean, given that the apologists spent the early months of the season reassuring us that the front office would make a move at the deadline for a bat, it just seems odd that this case of selective amnesia has overcome them...


Even you understand basic economics, I think. Lots of buyers... not enough sellers = very high prices. Given that none of the "big names" got traded (Huff, Dunn, Manny, etc) to anyone, do you think that just maybe the prices were way too high and <B>every team</B> saw this?

[Clutch]

I'm stunned that the team has done what they have done ... I really am. I did not see it possible. Not after starting Taveras and Scott (WTF?), jumping out of the gate the way they did and seeing Bagwell bow out. So they have definitely proven me wrong.

BUT, just because they are winning now doesn't mean they didn't have to make a move -- in fact it should have pushed them to make one. The window of opportunity for this pitching staff (which right now is World Championship caliber) is not big. Roger Clemens has started 21 games at a sick 1.46 ERA ... and doesn't have double-digit wins yet. They need a bat. I was a little shocked they didn't make a move.

Serious question here -- what has Tim Purpura accomplished since taking over the GM reigns? I'm not being sarcastic... I'd feel better if I knew of something that he did that I'm not currently aware of. Right now it looks like the man's contributions include running off Kent and introducing the addition of a healthy Lance Berkman, but maybe there's more.

If Hunsicker was in there I would at least feel a little bit more like this meant that nothing was really possible via the trade market ... with Purpura I don't know.

Didn't the Cardinals get Larry Walker last year after the deadline via waivers? Seriously doubt anything like that is possible, but I sure wish they could add a stick.

[rikesh316]

I agree with Clutch, we need a another big steak. Adam Everett has the be the worst no.6 hitter in the game and Burke the least productive starting OF. Brunlett deserves more playing time and so does Palmerio. Its obvious that Burke is not ready for the big leagues. Burke has little value as a OF, so send him down and let him season a little more.

[rikesh316]

My bad I meant big STICK not steak.

[rikesh316]

One of the prospects would have been in Fernando Nieve. Hell no would I give up Nieve for 43 year old pitcher. Purpura would have looked dumb if Moyer accepted this trade, thankfully he didn't.

[Puedlfor]

It is quite convenient for the Drayton apologists to throw out names like Randy Winn or Larry Bigbie and say they couldn't help the team. Isn't it strange that the apologists would exclude the most talked about name -- Adam Dunn? Or other talked about names like Mike Sweeney or ManRam (a pipe dream given Drayton's purse strings)? I mean, given that the apologists spent the early months of the season reassuring us that the front office would make a move at the deadline for a bat, it just seems odd that this case of selective amnesia has overcome them...

The names Randy Winn and Larry Bigbie are thrown out there, because they're the people who got traded.

Adam Dunn? Didn't get moved because the Reds asking price was too high.
Ken Griffey jr? Didnt get moved because the Reds asking price was too high.
Manny Ramirez? Didn't get moved because the Red Sox asking price was too high.
Aubrey Huff? Didn't get moved because the Devil Rays asking price was too high.

No big names got moved, because the bad teams with veteran assets overplayed their hands and tried to grab too much talent - and the playoff contenders just weren't willing to pay it.

The only player that moved who could've made an impact with the Astros was Matt Lawton, which is irksome that we didn't end up with him - but that's how pathetic a trade deadline this was.

[Major]

Serious question here -- what has Tim Purpura accomplished since taking over the GM reigns? I'm not being sarcastic... I'd feel better if I knew of something that he did that I'm not currently aware of. Right now it looks like the man's contributions include running off Kent and introducing the addition of a healthy Lance Berkman, but maybe there's more.


He didn't panic - that's his biggest move. It would have been easy to go out and spend the $18M we saved on Beltran to go out and get marginal talent to say he was doing something. Look at the Nationals. They got Preston Wilson. The result? They had to bench their super-rookie Ryan Church, and for whatever reason, their team has been in a tailspin ever since. If nothing is available, being desperate and just making a move for the sake of looking like they were doing something can be counterproductive. The fact that no big hitter moved tells me that prices were probably too high. Maybe the best move was to stand pat. We won't know whether that was a good decision until the end of the year. Astros players have said for the last week or two that they are happy with the team, like the chemistry, and don't feel a move is necessary (as opposed to earlier in the season) ... we'll see if they were right.

Bottom line is he gave the rookies a chance (something not all GMs are willing to do) and has a team that is now leading the wild card.

[Major]

No big names got moved, because the bad teams with veteran assets overplayed their hands and tried to grab too much talent - and the playoff contenders just weren't willing to pay it.


Honestly, I'm not sure they really overplayed their hands. The sellers were in a position of power this year. Unlike Randy Johnson, Beltran, etc - these big names aren't in the final years of their contract this year. All those teams can still trade those players during the offseason or next deadline, so there was no urgency for them. It's just one of those years, with so many teams in contention, that very few big-name free-agent hitters were out there (if any?).

[The Real Shady]

Just look at it this way. Next season we are going to have several tradeable pitching assets in Wandy, Zeke, Backe, and Nieve. If Wandy and Zeke can continue to pitch well to finish the season their value will sky rocket.

[redgoose]

Just look at it this way. Next season we are going to have several tradeable pitching assets in Wandy, Zeke, Backe, and Nieve. If Wandy and Zeke can continue to pitch well to finish the season their value will sky rocket.

I totally agree. :cool:

We have a much better chance making a trade during the off season for a bat. Our pitchers are gaining value and that's all those bad teams want, young pitching prospects. Plus teams that want to trade someone in the summer, know teams can just sign guys outright instead. I expect thr Reds asking price for Dunn and company to significantly drop. His arbitration won't be adding any value to him either. Dunn should be priority #1 in the off season, next to resigning Roger and Biggio. Then, I still think Huff would be nice addition, and since he's a FA, we won't give anything up, other than Drayton's money. :D

I see the Reds as the biggest losers in the trade deadline. They couldn't get rid of Dunn, Griffey, or Kearns. That's a horrible job by their GM, who is way to greedy, if you can't get rid of one of those guys with probably the most buyers in trading deadline history. He should be embaresed. :p

[BigCountry132]

The cubs got Lawton for Jody Gerut, yes the same player who was swapped for the Jason Dubois. Its hard to believe that an astros offer could not match that of Gerut. Purpura missed that one b/c IMO, we really need a bat if we want to win the Series.

Link for lawton trade http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2121047

[redgoose]

Serious question here -- what has Tim Purpura accomplished since taking over the GM reigns? I'm not being sarcastic... I'd feel better if I knew of something that he did that I'm not currently aware of. Right now it looks like the man's contributions include running off Kent and introducing the addition of a healthy Lance Berkman, but maybe there's more.



I stated the exact same thing in another thread after Kent talked publicly how he loved Houston and was even going to take less than his 9 million option to stay here. Sure, he didn't overpay for anyone at the trading deadline, but what GM did? He still should of been going all out to get a bat before the season even started. Teams like Tampa knew they weren't going to contend then.

So if you asked me what has he done? All i could tell you is he ran Jeff Kent out of town. :mad:

[fya]

poopoora is a ****ty gm.

[Major]

He still should of been going all out to get a bat before the season even started.

Our outfield was going to be Lane, Berkman (after a month), and Willy. If we had gotten a bat there, Willy would still be in the minors. Would that have been a good thing? Expectations were high for Lane, so he was finally going to get his opportunity no matter what.

1st base - Bagwell. 2nd - Biggio, SS - Everett, C - Ausmus. These positions were all set and we weren't looking to upgrade any of those.

The other concern was 3B. Would you have liked to have gone out and gotten a 3B before the season and benched Ensberg?

The only reason we have a corner outfield spot problem is Bagwell had surgery (moving Berkman) and Lane has not performed to expectations. Neither of these were expected before the season started. If anything, we would most likely have moved to get a CF or a 3B, and the result would be no Willy or no Ensberg.

[thacabbage]

I totally agree. :cool:

We have a much better chance making a trade during the off season for a bat.
How does that help us this season...
The goal is to win this year as it is highly unlikely that if Roger returns next year, he, Andy, and Roy will be this dominant.

Considering that the asking price for Jamie freaking Moyer was Nieve, I'm just hoping that the asking price for hitters was way too high. I would hate to think that Purpura is delusional enough to think this lineup as composed will cut it or incompetent enough to not be able to put together a deal. Then again, it scares me that he was willing to deal Nieve for Moyer...we really dodged a bullet there.

In the end, while many of you say this lineup is good enough to get it done, well I agree - theoretically anybody can get hot in the playoffs. But it's about giving yourself the BEST shot to win and when you already know that these guys are playing way over their heads combined with the fact that we pretty much have a one year window, well, you need to mask your handicap. This isn't like the St. Louis Cardinals of last year mashing their way to the pennant. Somehow, this offense is getting it done with smoke and mirrors on the backs of possibly the greatest statistical pitching trio in the last decade.

In the end, I fear that our recent success has given us a false sense of security. It reminds me of the 1997-1998 Rockets season when, with rumors abound (including Damon Stoudamire), the team went on a winning streak close to the deadline and decided to stand pat. That team, like this one, also had a small window of opportunity.

[redgoose]

Our outfield was going to be Lane, Berkman (after a month), and Willy. If we had gotten a bat there, Willy would still be in the minors. Would that have been a good thing? Expectations were high for Lane, so he was finally going to get his opportunity no matter what.

1st base - Bagwell. 2nd - Biggio, SS - Everett, C - Ausmus. These positions were all set and we weren't looking to upgrade any of those.

The other concern was 3B. Would you have liked to have gone out and gotten a 3B before the season and benched Ensberg?

The only reason we have a corner outfield spot problem is Bagwell had surgery (moving Berkman) and Lane has not performed to expectations. Neither of these were expected before the season started. If anything, we would most likely have moved to get a CF or a 3B, and the result would be no Willy or no Ensberg.

I would have of gotten an outfielder without blinking.

We started the saeson with an entire minor league outfield! When has that been done before on any team? :confused: Lane and Taveras could fight for time.

It was also pretty obvious bagwell was gonna go down. The team already knew his shoulder was a complete mess. That was a given.

So there were more than one reason to go our and get another big bat for the lineup. Especially when it was fresh in everyone's mind we had just lost 2 all stars, kent and Beltran.

Seemed obvious too me and the entire sports nation we needed major help.

[Trader_Jorge]

It seems as though a large % of the board is unwilling to let go of young prospects like Nieve and the like. If everyone's goal is to win a championship, and Roger Clemens could be in his final season, can anyone tell me what we are waiting for? Seems like this is the best time there will ever be to make a deadline deal. No? How often will Roger be pitching this way, if at all? What about Ensberg playing out of his mind, or players like Wheeler, Taveras and heck, even Biggio exceeding expectations. Given the Rocket's short time frame and the chance to see what he and Pettitte can do in the playoffs together, it seems like the iron was hot. Did we strike? Nope.

[NYKRule]

Moyer has always been able to shut down big hitting teams (like the Yankees),

As a Yankees fan this offends me.

Moyer's 3 year splits

vs. NYY 6.15ERA 8Starts 48.1IP 56H 34R 33ER 14HR 18BB 29K .286BAA

[Puedlfor]

We didn't strike, because it was a horrible year to make a deadline deal.

1) Too many teams in the race meant a lot of buyers and very few sellers.
2) An underwhelming free agent class meant that there were few rent-a-players, and less pressure on teams to deal players.
3) The prominent involvment of Chuck LaMar and the Reds. LaMar is just horrible to deal with, and was demanding top level prospects for Baez and Julio Lugo, before rendering Lugo off-the-market. The Reds were worse, they couldn't decide who was even on the market - much less what they would like for them.
4) The Manny Ramirez Deal. Which consumed so much attention from so many teams(including teams who had negotiations with New York or Boston to move surpluses/fill holes created by the trade), that smaller deals just didn't even get looked at.

[Trader_Jorge]

I guess the question I'm asking is which would you prefer:

1) Continued above-average play that will barely get the Astros to the post-season but nothing after that. (What we've seen for the past decade)

2) Take a chance and put a championship contender on the field, perhaps at the peril of future seasons

Given the Rocket's status, I opt for 2.

Could you imagine how potent out lineup would be if Drayton had used the Beltran money to put Manny Ramirez in our outfield? You can't say the opportunity wasn't there. Boston was desperate to unload him (heck, they waived him last year) and likely would have picked up part of his salary. Putting ManRam in our lineup instantly gives us credibility for a title. Instead, we are messing around with washed-up has beens like Jamie Moyer. Is Purpura even on the same wavelength as anyone else? Jamie Moyer? What, was Rick Sutcliffe not available?

[Major]

If everyone's goal is to win a championship, and Roger Clemens could be in his final season, can anyone tell me what we are waiting for? Seems like this is the best time there will ever be to make a deadline deal. No?

Last year was the best time to do it because had an older team (Bagwell, Kent), and we did.

Every year a team can say "this might be the last chance". In reality, it's just the opposite for this team. The core of the team - Willy, Berkman, Ensberg, Everett in the field; Roy, Pettite, Wheeler, Lidge, Qualls, Astacio, Wandy pitching - is young and will be here for a while. The only impact players we'll be losing due to age soon are Ausmus, Biggio and Roger Clemens. Ausmus and Biggio each likely has a few more years, Roger probably the same. If we do lose Roger, that's $18,000,000 to go get impact players to replace him. The team's future is bright, certainly looking towards the next year or two - now is not the time to trade away integral future parts of marginal improvements.

Look, we'd all have liked to have added a bat. But the simple fact of the matter is no impact player was available at a reasonable price - every team went through this same problem. I don't see how you can blame a GM for not getting an impact player when NO GM was able to do it. There might have been some minor guys out there like Winn and such, but these guys simply aren't difference makers. It's just not worth risking changing the chemistry and mix on this team, along with giving up future prospects, for an extra 0.050 to 0.100 of OPS.

[Major]

Could you imagine how potent out lineup would be if Drayton had used the Beltran money to put Manny Ramirez in our outfield? You can't say the opportunity wasn't there. Boston was desperate to unload him (heck, they waived him last year) and likely would have picked up part of his salary. Putting ManRam in our lineup instantly gives us credibility for a title. Instead, we are messing around with washed-up has beens like Jamie Moyer. Is Purpura even on the same wavelength as anyone else? Jamie Moyer? What, was Rick Sutcliffe not available?

Who were you going to trade to get Manny? It would have taken Ensberg or Berkman, at the very least, plus prospects. They weren't unloading Manny for prospects - the proposed deal got them Huff and Cameron for him, and even that was deemed not enough. Boston was looking for players that will help them win this year.

[Trader_Jorge]

Last year was the best time to do it because had an older team (Bagwell, Kent), and we did.

Every year a team can say "this might be the last chance". In reality, it's just the opposite for this team. The core of the team - Willy, Berkman, Ensberg, Everett in the field; Roy, Pettite, Wheeler, Lidge, Qualls, Astacio, Wandy pitching - is young and will be here for a while. The only impact players we'll be losing due to age soon are Ausmus, Biggio and Roger Clemens. Ausmus and Biggio each likely has a few more years, Roger probably the same.
First, Kent could have been had this year, and not re-signing him is the biggest blunder to date of Purpura. Second, Pettitte has only one more year on his contract, and Lidge (and Ensberg) is going to be needing a whopper of a contract as well. Remember what happened with Billy Wagner? Hopefully the same fate won't befall Lidge. Wheeler, Astacio, Wandy, Everett, Qualls -- those guys aren't the core of any team. They are easily replaceable filler. Allowing the Rocket to redeem himself after last year's Game 7 would be excellent and a nice reward for him taking Drayton's hometown discount.

If we do lose Roger, that's $18,000,000 to go get impact players to replace him.
BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Kind of like Drayton used the Beltran money to acquire..... oops, to fund another steepled building on the Baylor campus. Seriously, what in the world makes you think Drayton is going to fully allocate those dollars to improving this team. What, is Purpura going to bring in Griffey Jr's 20-year annuity of a contract? Funny.

[thacabbage]

Last year was the best time to do it because had an older team (Bagwell, Kent), and we did.

Every year a team can say "this might be the last chance". In reality, it's just the opposite for this team. The core of the team - Willy, Berkman, Ensberg, Everett in the field; Roy, Pettite, Wheeler, Lidge, Qualls, Astacio, Wandy pitching - is young and will be here for a while. The only impact players we'll be losing due to age soon are Ausmus, Biggio and Roger Clemens. Ausmus and Biggio each likely has a few more years, Roger probably the same. If we do lose Roger, that's $18,000,000 to go get impact players to replace him. The team's future is bright, certainly looking towards the next year or two - now is not the time to trade away integral future parts of marginal improvements.

Look, we'd all have liked to have added a bat. But the simple fact of the matter is no impact player was available at a reasonable price - every team went through this same problem. I don't see how you can blame a GM for not getting an impact player when NO GM was able to do it. There might have been some minor guys out there like Winn and such, but these guys simply aren't difference makers. It's just not worth risking changing the chemistry and mix on this team, along with giving up future prospects, for an extra 0.050 to 0.100 of OPS.
You are sorely underestimating Roger Clemens. He is 1/3 of the only reason we would have had a realistic shot through the postseason. The rest is not a core - they are along for the ride.

[Major]

BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Kind of like Drayton used the Beltran money to acquire..... oops, to fund another steepled building on the Baylor campus. Seriously, what in the world makes you think Drayton is going to fully allocate those dollars to improving this team. What, is Purpura going to bring in Griffey Jr's 20-year annuity of a contract? Funny.

Hmm... Berkman, Bagwell, Biggio, Alou, Kent, Pettite, Clemens, huge offers to Johnson, Beltran, Kile ... What makes you think Drayton won't spend if impact players are available? There's a difference between smart spending and stupid spending.

[Major]

You are sorely underestimating Roger Clemens. He is 1/3 of the only reason we would have had a realistic shot through the postseason. The rest is not a core - they are along for the ride.

You don't make the playoffs solely with a guy who plays one out of 5 days. We're 11-10 in the games Clemens has started. We're 46-38 in all the other games. Clearly, plenyty of other people are contributing to our success too. We're in the position we're in because everyone has been contributing key innings, key hits, key defense, etc.

[Trader_Jorge]

Hmm... Berkman, Bagwell, Biggio, Alou, Kent, Pettite, Clemens, huge offers to Johnson, Beltran, Kile ... What makes you think Drayton won't spend if impact players are available? There's a difference between smart spending and stupid spending.
Um, half the players you listed left because Drayton didn't want to spend the money to keep them around. Then you imply that Bagwell's $18,000,000 salary this season is smart spending?

CLASSIC

[Trader_Jorge]

You don't make the playoffs solely with a guy who plays one out of 5 days. We're 11-10 in the games Clemens has started. We're 46-38 in all the other games. Clearly, plenyty of other people are contributing to our success too. We're in the position we're in because everyone has been contributing key innings, key hits, key defense, etc.

But you win in the playoffs with excellence. Clemens represents that. Again, this isn't about just making the playoffs and calling it a successful season. We're sick of that. We want to be in the CHAMPIONSHIP hunt, not just happy to be in the post-season. And attempting to downplay Clemens W/L record this season is just plain silly. He's the best pitcher in baseball and doesn't have any run support. How you choose to ignore that is mind boggling.

[Major]

Um, half the players you listed left because Drayton didn't want to spend the money to keep them around. Then you imply that Bagwell's $18,000,000 salary this season is smart spending?

CLASSIC

And yet they came here in the first place (via trade or free agency) because Drayton was willing to shell out tons of money. Something you continue to ignore when whining about him. If you could have predicted 5 years ago that Bagwell's shoulder would have degenerated, then I'd love to hear what you know about other players and what kind of shape they will be in 5 years from now.

[Major]

But you win in the playoffs with excellence. Clemens represents that. Again, this isn't about just making the playoffs and calling it a successful season. We're sick of that. We want to be in the CHAMPIONSHIP hunt, not just happy to be in the post-season. And attempting to downplay Clemens W/L record this season is just plain silly. He's the best pitcher in baseball and doesn't have any run support. How you choose to ignore that is mind boggling.

We HAVE Clemens already - what's your point? We already have the key components to excel in the postsesaon. Freaking Randy Winn or the like isn't going to make a difference there. That's the whole point. How you are unable to comprehend basic economics of buying and selling is mind boggling.

The W/L record when Clemens pitches demonstrates that our winning season is a TEAM effort. We have plenty of other people contributing - this team is not just winning right now on the back of Clemens. It was completely unrelated to the discussion of trade scenarios, but on the make up of the team and how we're winning.

[thacabbage]

You don't make the playoffs solely with a guy who plays one out of 5 days. We're 11-10 in the games Clemens has started. We're 46-38 in all the other games. Clearly, plenyty of other people are contributing to our success too. We're in the position we're in because everyone has been contributing key innings, key hits, key defense, etc.
Like I said, "He is 1/3 of the only reason we would have had a realistic shot through the postseason." Everyone else contributed to get them to this point but it would have been the sheer brilliance and dominance of that top 3 and Brad Lidge that would have gotten them through the postseason. Greatness like that doesn't come along too often. You are sorely underestimating Roger Clemens when you lump him in a core along with Taveres and other replaceable parts. He is greatness manifested - when you have that, you go all out to give it a chance.

I'm hoping you're right that there just wasn't any deal out there because I would hate to think Purpura is delusional enough to consider this lineup good enough.

[thacabbage]

Major: If you're saying that a deal couldn't be made within a reasonable price, I can accept that.

But if you're saying that a deal wasn't needed and this lineup will be sufficient...I just have to strongly disagree.

[Trader_Jorge]

We HAVE Clemens already - what's your point? We already have the key components to excel in the postsesaon. Freaking Randy Winn or the like isn't going to make a difference there. That's the whole point. How you are unable to comprehend basic economics of buying and selling is mind boggling.

The W/L record when Clemens pitches demonstrates that our winning season is a TEAM effort. We have plenty of other people contributing - this team is not just winning right now on the back of Clemens. It was completely unrelated to the discussion of trade scenarios, but on the make up of the team and how we're winning.
The point is that we don't have Clemens for too much longer, so the time to act is now. I have no idea why you continue to bring up Randy Winn, when better players were available, like Dunn and Huff.

Then you claim we have the pieces to excel in the postseason. Um, didn't the Cardinals sweep us not too long ago? Wouldn't we play them in the postseason? Comprende?

Finally, I fully understand the economics of buying and selling. Those economics are quite different when Drayton is holding the purse strings. Gerry Hunsicker seems to agree with me...

[Nick]

I'm hoping you're right that there just wasn't any deal out there because I would hate to think Purpura is delusional enough to consider this lineup good enough.

I don't think anybody is thinking that this lineup is anywhere close to being a "powerhouse"... but the player we were looking for was a decent-hitting OF, with some experience, and one that wasn't owed exorbitant amounts on a contract.

Basically... out of the guys who ended up getting traded... that limited that list to Randy Winn, Jose Cruz Jr. and Matt Lawton. Now, all 3 would have made the Astros better than they are now... but none of them would make the offense good enough to beat St. Louis in a 7 game series (provided the cardinals are fully healthy... which is actually going to be highly questionable in october).

The Reds weren't going to give Dunn away for nothing... and if they were, you would have seen St. Louis, Chicago, or any other team in need of outfielders all over that as well. No team (big or mid market) were willing to touch Griffey with a 2000 foot pole. And Manny, in the end, was just being Manny.

I know its hard to accept the fact that this will be our lineup going into the playoffs... but we could have had a Winn, Cruz, or Lawton all year and probably not be that much better than we are right now. Our offense will depend solely on whether Ensberg can continue his big season, and whether or not Lance continues on his upward trend back towards his career slugging/OBP #'s.

This team wins with pitching and timely hitting... nothing more, nothing less. In the playoffs, they'll need even more of that. They'll need guys like Lamb and Bruntlett to continue to get big hits at the right time. They'll need Orlando Palmeiro to carry his stellar season average when he faces Smoltz and Hudson. They'll need Jason Lane to gain confidence in those great abilities he shows flashes of.

But in the end, we're talking about the playoffs like they're tommorow. This team is just now starting to find itself... and there could be a whole different perspective on things come October. For now, we'll just have to wait and see.

[Puedlfor]

Adam Dunn and Aubrey Huff were not available to us.

The Reds were in complete shambles about who to move at the deadline - and preferred to wait until the winter anyways.

Huff was a part of the Ramirez deal - and unavailable until Tampa gave up on it - and there was no way the Devil Rays were going to easily give up on those talks, given the wealth of prospects they were slated to get.

[Nick]

Major: If you're saying that a deal couldn't be made within a reasonable price, I can accept that.

But if you're saying that a deal wasn't needed and this lineup will be sufficient...I just have to strongly disagree.

I definitely think he's saying the former, and using the latter as a way to soothe the anger that some of you have right now.

I also forgot to mention in my last post that St. Louis and The Yankees were also in dire need of outfield help in their lineups... yet the right deals weren't out there for them either. This was just one sh***y trade deadline, and we all knew that when the Reds stopped offering Dunn, and the D-Rays decided to play hardball with all teams (not just our beloved houston astros).

[Major]

The point is that we don't have Clemens for too much longer, so the time to act is now. I have no idea why you continue to bring up Randy Winn, when better players were available, like Dunn and Huff.


What would you have been willing to trade to get Dunn and Huff? And what was your proposed deal for Manny that you thought we should have made?


Then you claim we have the pieces to excel in the postseason. Um, didn't the Cardinals sweep us not too long ago? Wouldn't we play them in the postseason? Comprende?


Wow, that's your argument? That we lost 3 games to a team, so we have to make a trade to beat them? The Cardinals just lost series to the Cubs and Brewers. If they play them in the postseason, do you think they'd be unable to beat them?

Both the Cardinals and Astros are worst this year than last. The series came down to a pitch here or there last year... I have no reason to think it wouldn't do the same this year.

[Major]

I definitely think he's saying the former, and using the latter as a way to soothe the anger that some of you have right now.

I also forgot to mention in my last post that St. Louis and The Yankees were also in dire need of outfield help in their lineups... yet the right deals weren't out there for them either. This was just one sh***y trade deadline, and we all knew that when the Reds stopped offering Dunn, and the D-Rays decided to play hardball with all teams (not just our beloved houston astros).

Exactly. I posted earlier in the week that the test for Purpura would be if those good guys (Dunn, Huff, etc) got traded to other places at reasonable prices. I would have loved to add Huff, Alou, Kent, or Griffey to this year (Dunn also, but not as much). There were lots of teams interested in those names, and the fact that none of them got traded tells me that the only way to get them was to overpay. I'm not going to blame Purpura for not doing that.

As it stands, the best teams in the NL are Cards, Braves, and Astros. Cards have the best offense. Astros have the best pitching. It's a tossup as to who'd win between the three, in my opinion. Our offense is not that much worse than the others (as attested to by being the #1 offense for the past month), and their pitching is not that much worse than ours. Nothing that was available to us would have changed that. It will likely come down to what team is hot down the stretch, but there's no reason to think we can't win with this group.

[DVauthrin]

Judging Tim Purpura based on one of the worst trade deadlines in a long time is not fair. This deadline makes 2003's look awesome, and that's saying a lot. I'm not saying we didn't need a bat: we did, and still do. But however, based on what was readily available and at their reported prices, the team honestly has better options in house if they just hit like they can. (See Mike Lamb when comparing people to a Cruz Jr type, and Lamb isn't better than Lawton overall but he fits the run producer mold better than Lawton does)

If you want some examples of how bad it was, I'll be happy to oblige:

1) Danys Baez and Chuck Lamar's(TB GM) trade demands(he told the Mets he wanted Jose Reyes or David Wright for him, and of course the Mets said goodbye, click. Now imagine what Huff's price tag would be) Not to mention the only deal he would consider for Huff was the 3 way with Manny which was incredibly unlikely to happen in the 1st place.

2) The Reds were so against trading that they wouldn't move freaking Rich Aurilia. Yes, I said that right, Rich Aurilia. So if they wouldn't move Aurilia, obviously Dunn, Kearns and Griffey weren't going anywhere.

The Reds are so set against trading that they are unlikely to move even Rich Aurilia.
''If I had to handicap it, I'd say we're probably not going to do anymore,'' general manager Dan O'Brien said.
Source: Cincinnati Enquirer(from rotoworld.com)

3) AJ Burnett stayed in Florida, despite the fact the Marlins will not resign him after the year and many AL contenders were after him. This is because Florida is in both the WC and NL East race.

4) The biggest names moved were Randy Winn, Phil Nevin, Jose Cruz Jr, and Matt Lawton. For pitchers it was Chan Ho Park, Kyle Farnsworth, and Ron Villone. Those names by themselves should make it obvious how bad this deadline was this year. Jamie Moyer would have been the best SP moved, but he not only blocked a trade to Houston, but a trade to Atlanta, and he's not that good.

5) The Royals didn't move Mike Sweeney, even though it's obvious they should have. Same goes for Milwaukee and Overbay(they have Fielder ready for the show). Furthermore, concerning teams like Milwaukee, they are more concerned with trying to have a winning season for their fans than doing their usual seller routine. Same goes for Detroit and a few other teams.

6) The NL West/East screwed a lot of things up. The Giants 13 games under 500, traded young players for another 30 and older player in randy winn. Why? Because Arizona leads that division with a 52-55 record. So therefore a bunch of teams who should have been sellers weren't. Conversely, with all 5 teams in the NL East being within striking distance of the WC/Division, there were 5 more buyers and 5 less sellers in the market.

The bottom line is this deadline eclipsed 2003 as the worst in recent memory, and it did so easily. And that was the year that the Orioles wanted Ensberg, Lane and Buck for Ponson(who was almost traded for Nevin this year). In fact, I can probably name the amount of sellers in this years trade market on one hand.

TB, Seattle, Pittsburgh, Colorado were the only real sellers. The Reds were all talk; the Brewers are shooting for 500, as are Baltimore/Detroit/Toronto, and Kansas City did nothing. Not only that, TB wanted ridiculous returns on their players(ie Kazmir for Zambrano sequels); Seattle only wanted to dump Winn, Moyer and Pineiro; Pittsburgh had only Redman, Mesa, Lawton and possibly Kip Wells on the block and they were obviously picky on their return demands;Colorado moved Preston Wilson and Kennedy and Chacon(everything except Helton worth something). Bottom line is there just wasn't much talent even available this deadline, and you had like 80% buyers/20% sellers on a thin market to begin with. That equals disaster.

So then you have to take into account that the Astros were against rent a players so their pool of players was even smaller. The only really viable options that I see after this all shook down were Cruz Jr in a platoon with Burke, or a guy like Lawton for a good prospect(Gerut has proved himself at the MLB level to at least be able to perform somewhat). The mariners only moved Winn because the giants offered Jesse Foppert(a top prospect a year removed from Tommy John surgery). And winn nor lawton were the kind of run producer they need, in fact they are leadoff type hitters.

The point is while I wanted a bat that could really put us in a great position talent wise to maximize our pitching staff, there just wasn't one either available or available reasonably. I'm not going to blame Purpura for not doing anything at the worst trade deadline in a long time. However, if he doesn't address the offense in the upcoming offseason, then fire away, because he knows what holes he'll need to address at that time, along with having the time and resources to do that.

[Another Brother]

I would've liked Lawton. Hearing that the Cubs obtained him, I'll be interested to see what they gave up to get him and what we have in our system that compares.

Me too. ;)

[DVauthrin]

Me too. ;)

Here is what they got for Lawton:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6634

A cheap lefty hitting outfielder who can be an adequate replacement for them. Essentially a more productive player than Chris Burke, and a similar talent to Jason Lane except that he is LH.

So in summation, would you have done Jason Lane for Matt Lawton(a rent a player, btw) because that's pretty much a similar price to what the cubs paid.

[bigboymumu]

I guess I dislike Drayton as much as anyone. But, I do not blame Drayton this time. I think a prudent owner should not give away the farm to get average players. IMO, the decision boiled down to players not money. I for one am glad we didn't give away Burke and/or Nieve.

On the other hand, I also agree with Clutch. I am a little worried that TP is a little scared to pull the trigger on deals. Gerry used to always pull something out of his hat. But, I will reserve judgement until we have enough time to evaluate TP. I guess it isn't fair to TP when we compare him to Gerry.

LETS SIT BACK AND ENJOY THE RIDE. WE HAVE A FIGHTING CHANCE.

[The Real Shady]

Here is what they got for Lawton:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6634

A cheap lefty hitting outfielder who can be an adequate replacement for them. Essentially a more productive player than Chris Burke, and a similar talent to Jason Lane except that he is LH.

So in summation, would you have done Jason Lane for Matt Lawton(a rent a player, btw) because that's pretty much a similar price to what the cubs paid.


Lane for Lawton is a no brainer. Maybe there was something Purpura didn't like about Lawton. hmmmm...... AB? LOL :D

[MadMax]

Dear Cynics and Bandwagon Jumpers:

Please stop watching.

Thanks in advance,

MadMax

[Bassfly]

I think this will be a prominent issue throughout the remainder of the Astros season and offseason. Should we have mortgaged our future for a bat?

When I first read the Nieve-Buckholz-Astachio for Dunn rumor, my initial reaction was HEELLLLLLL NO. However, during our recent run and watching how truly dominant our pitching can be, I've changed my stance. You gotta add a bat. I think we can all agree on this, and I think we can all agree that the likes of Winn, Lawton, Cameron, etc etc aren't the bats we want.

- Ramirez was unattainable. The RedSox weren't looking to trade him for prospects. They would have wanted Qualls, and Lane on top of our prospects at the very least. (even then Boston fans would have said they got too little)Trading our future is one thing, but tinkering with our current roster is too much. Come playoff time Qualls, Wheeler, and Gallo will be just as important as Lidge.

- Dunn. I think I would have pulled the trigger on the aforemention trade, but the thing is you gotta be able to hit for average in the playoffs. Even if we did make a trade for Dunn, come October we would be pulling our hair out as he strikes out 3 times a game.

- Soriano. See above, he's not good at hitting for contact and strikes out too much. This is why he got traded in the first place.

- Huff. I think Purpura should have went after this guy the hardest. Tampa Bay was looking to trade him for prospects, so he was definitely attainable. You have to realize that neither of those pitchers are considered top flight prospects. Buckholz has the best stuff and the only one who has ace potential, but has had arm problems which is always a red flag. Assuming Tampa Bay would have taken Nieve-Buckholz-Astachio for Huff, Purpura should have done it. It would have depleted our immediate farm system similar to what happened with the Randy Johnson trade, but still, no one really regrets that trade.

There's absolutely no way our offense will be sufficient for the playoffs. We should have mortgaged our future, cause as I see it we're pretenders. Getting a legitimate RBI producer like Dunn or Huff (preferably) would have put us as favorites in the NL imo, and I think Purpura dropped the ball this deadline.

[The Real Shady]

Does anyone think that Purpura might not feel a sense of urgency about this season because this is his first year as GM? He may be more concerned with building this team the way he wants in the long term then winning it all right now.

[thacabbage]

Does anyone think that Purpura might not feel a sense of urgency about this season because this is his first year as GM? He may be more concerned with building this team the way he wants in the long term then winning it all right now.
My initial reaction was that because because Purpura handled the majority of the scouting for the Astros before he became GM, and has watched these guys come along, he was more reluctant to deal them, perhaps overvaluing his own prospects.

I agree almost completely with Bassfly's post. We sorely needed a bat. Whether that bat was attainable is a different issue, but you cannot argue that we sorely did not need a bat.

For the future of Purpura's reign, I really hope, for the sake of this organization, that there just wasn't anything available. It scares me though that he completed a deal to send Nieve for Moyer. Our biggest need was a LHP?

[The Real Shady]

You can ask Tim about why the astros didn't make a trade at 3pm today. He'll be doing an online chat.

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050728&content_id=1148079&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou

[Groogrux]

My initial reaction was that because because Purpura handled the majority of the scouting for the Astros before he became GM, and has watched these guys come along, he was more reluctant to deal them, perhaps overvaluing his own prospects.

I would probably lean towards him being in a position to know more about his own prospects than most general managers. However, I think the lack of deals yesterday involving any players of relevance should lead us to believe that a trade was either not to be had or that the sellers overplayed their hand and were asking for too much in return.

Whether that bat was attainable is a different issue, but you cannot argue that we sorely did not need a bat.

I'm not sure I would say sorely, but a big bat would've been nice. I'd have loved to get Manny, Huff, Alou or Dunn, but apparently it just wasn't feasible.

For the future of Purpura's reign, I really hope, for the sake of this organization, that there just wasn't anything available.

I think the fact that there were no players of real consequence dealt proves that there were no good deals available. If you're going to blame Pupura for yesterday, you have to blame all other GMs who had needs but didn't make a trade for a huge bat (or pitcher for that matter). I'm sorry, but the OFs that were dealt do not qualify, with the possible exception of Lawton.

It scares me though that he completed a deal to send Nieve for Moyer. Our biggest need was a LHP?

I'm not sure it was our biggest need, but it was something that needed to be addressed. With Roger having back issues, Backe on the DL, Pettitte a season removed from elbow surgery, Roy admitting that he's pitching with dead legs and arms, and currently having two rookies bring up the rear of the rotation, a starting pitcher was a need. I'm glad it didn't go through, personally, but it was still a need.

[Baqui99]

Excellent article by Jayson Stark regarding the nonsense that went on around the trade deadline:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2121261

[Buck Turgidson]

In summation,

We didn't strike, because it was a horrible year to make a deadline deal.

1) Too many teams in the race meant a lot of buyers and very few sellers.
2) An underwhelming free agent class meant that there were few rent-a-players, and less pressure on teams to deal players.
3) The prominent involvment of Chuck LaMar and the Reds. LaMar is just horrible to deal with, and was demanding top level prospects for Baez and Julio Lugo, before rendering Lugo off-the-market. The Reds were worse, they couldn't decide who was even on the market - much less what they would like for them.
4) The Manny Ramirez Deal. Which consumed so much attention from so many teams(including teams who had negotiations with New York or Boston to move surpluses/fill holes created by the trade), that smaller deals just didn't even get looked at.

get the stick out of your ass and enjoy the season

btw, it was Moyer & Winn for Burke & an undetermined pitcher(s) - Astacio, Nieve, Harville, other. Moyer nixed the deal before it was agreed upon.

Trading Lane for Lawton doesn't fill the hole in the OF, you still have Burke/OP/Lamb/Bruntlett playing LF. Plus, Lane's due to go on a tear.

[The Cat]

btw, it was Moyer & Winn for Burke & an undetermined pitcher(s) - Astacio, Nieve, Harville, other. Moyer nixed the deal before it was agreed upon.

Buck: where did you read that? Will Carroll over at BP said it was Nieve and a lower pitching prospect for Moyer... I didn't realize that Burke and Winn were also in the deal. Winn obviously wouldn't help with power, but certainly he would've been a nice upgrade for the rest of this season...

[Buck Turgidson]

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/234745_moyer01.html

[Baqui99]

Some quotes from the Jayson Stark article that should calm down the internet haters.

"Most anticlimactic thing I've ever been a part of," grumbled an executive of one contender.

"Ridiculous," moaned another contender's assistant GM.

"What a waste of a lot of people's time," muttered an official of yet another club.

Four deals. Four. Incredible. Want to know what happened? Here's what:

• Way too little supply and way too much demand.

• A crummy free-agent class on the horizon that produced almost no decent rent-a-players.

• Two dozen teams that apparently thought of themselves as still being in some kind of race.

• And a group of non-contenders that apparently thought the definition of "seller's market" was: Give us your wallet, your watch, your ATM card, your 401K and your entire Baseball America Top 10 Prospect List.


And the article goes on...

Two sellers who did it wrong
Devil Rays and Reds
You know the names by heart at this point: Danys Baez. Aubrey Huff. Julio Lugo. Adam Dunn. Austin Kearns. Junior Griffey. Sean Casey.
They're all names that have kept Rumor Central percolating for weeks now. So how come, after all that blabbing, not oneof them got traded?

Let's just say a bunch of teams were fuming at the two general managers -- Tampa Bay's always-embattled Chuck LaMar and Cincinnati's Dan O'Brien.

The complaints about LaMar -- a Deadline Day tradition -- were a little different than usual, though. This time, LaMar really had teams convinced he was going to move Baez and Huff for sure, and probably Lugo, too.

But after seeing mega-prospects like Hanley Ramirez, Lastings Milledge, Yasmiero Petit, Jon Lester and Shoppach dangled before his eyes in the Manny-palooza talks, LaMar was unwilling to lower his sights even a little bit when it came time to trade his guys separately. Then, on Sunday, he started telling teams Lugo wasn't even available "after telling everyone he'd move him," said one front-office man.

"I'm always amazed," added one frustrated GM, "by a team that needs that much help, as bad as it is, and doesn't do anything."

But at least LaMar set the ground rules early on. If he didn't get your team's best prospect, he wasn't trading with you. He said that from the start -- and stuck to it. The Reds, on the other hand, sent mixed signals in all directions -- and aggravated more teams than anyone else in baseball.

"I don't understand what they were doing," said an executive of one contender. "I thought we made real solid offers for a couple of their guys, and we'd never get a response. They'd never give you names of guys they want. They wouldn't tell you what they were trying to do. You were never sure who they wanted. You could never tell whether guys you were talking about were available. And they might not even call back."

At least the Reds did make one decent trade (Joe Randa for promising pitching prospects Justin Germano and Travis Chick). How the Devil Rays could stand pat, on the other hand, is a bigger mystery to many teams than the Dead Sea Scrolls.

[Fegwu]

The cubs got Lawton for Jody Gerut, yes the same player who was swapped for the Jason Dubois. Its hard to believe that an astros offer could not match that of Gerut. Purpura missed that one b/c IMO, we really need a bat if we want to win the Series.

Link for lawton trade http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2121047


Now that is the one that really hurts. The sCrUBS got Lawton for bassically Dubois.

Poop could have done better or we could have gotten Lawton for Coolbaugh and/or cash.

[bobrek]

Now that is the one that really hurts. The sCrUBS got Lawton for bassically Dubois.

Poop could have done better or we could have gotten Lawton for Coolbaugh and/or cash.

Do you really think the Pirates would have wanted a 33 year old career minor leaguer?

[Fegwu]

Do you really think the Pirates would have wanted a 33 year old career minor leaguer?

I am not sure if the Bucks would want Coolbaugh with his age situation but I do not think it would have been out of reach if we added cash to the deal. Matt is 34 anyway and will be a FA by year's end.

Coolbaugh is having a great year and Matt's value wasn't that high. I am not even sure Gerut will be in the league in 2 years and I think we could have landed Lawton with minimal offer or effort. If not Coolbaugh, we could have offered a younger class 3A low prospect in the mould of Dubois or Gerrut + cash. You know the Bucks would have loved to get cashback in return for Lawton.

Oh well whatever....

[Oski2005]

The Twins wanted Burke? What did they offer?

[Buck Turgidson]

Do you really think the Pirates would have wanted a 33 year old career minor leaguer?
Of course not.

"We said all along that we wanted to get a Major League player back." -- Dave Littlefield, Bucs GM

http://pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050731&content_id=1151990&vkey=news_pit&fext=.jsp&c_id=pit

Gerut's only 27, was the '03 AL ROY (coming off a knee injury), is arb-eligible but under club control for a few more seasons. He's no more of a scrub/throwaway/whatever than Jason Lane is, except Gerut's more proven at the MLB level.

[MadMax]

The Twins wanted Burke? What did they offer?

a really nice Casio.

[T_in_Charlotte]

Don't know if you saw this on ESPNews today, but Moyer has now rejected a waiver wire trade to the Yankees as well. This guy just doesn't want to go to any contender, does he?

[Nick]

Don't know if you saw this on ESPNews today, but Moyer has now rejected a waiver wire trade to the Yankees as well. This guy just doesn't want to go to any contender, does he?

Since when are the Yankees a contender??? :D