[ESPN] 40 current palyers that will be in Hall of Fame

[SupermanSK]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=schoenfield/050728

[Harrisment]

1. Roger Clemens and 2. Barry Bonds
The only questions left with these two: Is Clemens the greatest pitcher of all time? And: Has Rick Reilly already written his "Why Bonds doesn't deserve to go into the Hall of Fame" column?

19. Craig Biggio
He has more than 2,700 hits and should reach 3,000, but he doesn't have to get to that magic number. This guy has done everything on the field: hit for average (four times over .300), hit for power (six times with 20-plus homers, twice with 50-plus doubles), steal bases (as many as 50 in one season), draw walks (.400 on-base percentage four times), score runs, win Gold Gloves, change positions, hustle (one year he grounded into zero double plays while playing every game), stay healthy … well, everything except clean his helmet.

20. Jeff Bagwell
The inside of Bagwell's shoulder is a bigger mess than a postgame spread under attack from David Wells and David Ortiz. It's even possible his career might be over. I fear the nonthinking man's response will be: "Bagwell didn't hit 500 home runs, he played in the Steroid Era, he choked in the playoffs and he had that crazy batting stance, so I'm not voting for him."

Let's do a quick comparison of Bagwell to the post-World War II first basemen who have made the Hall, along with one who will:

BAGWELL VS. THE WORLD
Player H R HR RBI AVG OBP SLG SB OPS OPS+
Bagwell 2311 1517 449 1525 .297 .408 .541 202 .949 150
McGwire 1626 1167 583 1414 .263 .394 .588 12 .982 163
Murray 3255 1627 504 1917 .287 .359 .476 110 .836 129
Perez 2732 1272 379 1652 .279 .341 .463 49 .804 122
Stargell 2232 1195 475 1540 .282 .360 .529 17 .889 147
McCovey 2211 1229 521 1555 .270 .374 .515 26 .889 148
Killebrew 2086 1283 573 1584 .256 .376 .509 19 .884 143
Cepeda 2351 1131 379 1365 .297 .350 .499 142 .849 133


Bagwell is the best player of the bunch. Only McGwire tops him in adjusted OPS; only Murray can come close as a fielder; and none is in the same league as Bagwell as a base runner. Bagwell's 152 runs scored in 2000 ranks as the most in one season since 1950. He was such an alert, aggressive runner, he once led the majors in frequency of going from first to third on singles. He put up monster numbers despite spending most of his career in the Astrodome. Add it all up, and the ESPN Baseball Encyclopedia ranks him as the 21st best player (not including pitchers) of all time, entering the 2005 season.

Now, that's my case for Bagwell's enshrinement … I think I've persuaded the jury.

[xiki]

A Page 2 piece I liked...priceless.

[Groogrux]

I love it when it takes 5 freaking clicks to get halfway through the article.

[Oski2005]

I love it when it takes 5 freaking clicks to get halfway through the article.

Me too, I'm glad they added the single page view button. I don't recall if it was always there when they started the stupid multipage layout.

[codell]

Bagwell stacking up against those other HOF 1st baggers is VERY impressive

WOW

[Toast]

This is a fun article. My dad & and I often like to argue whether Bags & Bigg will ever make it into the hall of fame. As Houstonians, of course, we both think he deserves it. Glad to see some nat'l media think so too.

[wrath_of_khan]

Check the front page of ESPN.com right now -- they've got this article on the front page with a picture of Bidge and Bags. Very nice.

Can someone post a screen cap before they change the front page?

[Supermac34]

This is a fun article. My dad & and I often like to argue whether Bags & Bigg will ever make it into the hall of fame. As Houstonians, of course, we both think he deserves it. Glad to see some nat'l media think so too.

One thing I've noticed about Biggio and Bagwell is that they often get UNDER-rated in Houston compared to national opinions.

Maybe its just that I'm so often used to Houston players being underated by national news, I discount my opinion of local folks too much for homerism.

[mateo]

I really wanted to see Bags hit HR#500.

[A-Train]

I don't think Mark McGwire will make the hall of fame. Terrible strikeout numbers, 12 career stolen bases, mediocre hit and RBI numbers, and he only hit .300 three times, two of those seasons he played less than 100 games...

[arkoe]

Here's that table a little easier to read:


<table cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" border="0" width="418" style="color: white;" id="inlinetable">
<th colspan="11" style="background-color:black;">BAGWELL VS. THE WORLD</th>

<tr valign="top" style="background-color:black;">
<td width="34" style="color: black;">
<b>Player</b>
</td>
<td width="34" style="color: black;">
<b>H</b>
</td>
<td width="34" style="color: black;">
<b>R</b>
</td>
<td width="34" style="color: black;">
<b>HR</b>
</td>

<td width="34" style="color: black;">
<b>RBI</b>
</td>
<td width="34" style="color: black;">
<b>AVG</b>
</td>
<td width="34" style="color: black;">
<b>OBP</b>
</td>
<td width="34" style="color: black;">
<b>SLG</b>
</td>
<td width="34" style="color: black;">
<b>SB</b>
</td>
<td width="34" style="color: black;">
<b>OPS</b>
</td>
<td width="34" style="color: black;">
<b>OPS+</b>
</td>
</tr>
<tr valign="top" style="background-color:black">
<td width="34">
Bagwell
</td>
<td width="34">
2311
</td>
<td width="34">
1517
</td>
<td width="34">
449
</td>
<td width="34">
1525
</td>
<td width="34">
.297
</td>
<td width="34">
.408
</td>

<td width="34">
.541
</td>
<td width="34">
202
</td>
<td width="34">
.949
</td>
<td width="34">
150
</td>
</tr>
<tr valign="top" style="background-color:black;">
<td width="34">
McGwire
</td>

<td width="34">
1626
</td>
<td width="34">
1167
</td>
<td width="34">
583
</td>
<td width="34">
1414
</td>
<td width="34">
.263
</td>
<td width="34">
.394
</td>
<td width="34">
.588
</td>
<td width="34">
12
</td>
<td width="34">
.982
</td>
<td width="34">
163
</td>
</tr>
<tr valign="top" style="background-color:black">
<td width="34">
Murray
</td>
<td width="34">
3255
</td>
<td width="34">
1627
</td>
<td width="34">
504
</td>
<td width="34">
1917
</td>
<td width="34">
.287
</td>
<td width="34">
.359
</td>
<td width="34">
.476
</td>
<td width="34">
110
</td>
<td width="34">
.836
</td>
<td width="34">
129
</td>
</tr>
<tr valign="top" style="background-color:black">
<td width="34">
Perez
</td>
<td width="34">
2732
</td>
<td width="34">
1272
</td>
<td width="34">
379
</td>
<td width="34">
1652
</td>
<td width="34">
.279
</td>

<td width="34">
.341
</td>
<td width="34">
.463
</td>
<td width="34">
49
</td>
<td width="34">
.804
</td>
<td width="34">
122
</td>
</tr>
<tr valign="top" style="background-color:black;">

<td width="34">
Stargell
</td>
<td width="34">
2232
</td>
<td width="34">
1195
</td>
<td width="34">
475
</td>
<td width="34">
1540
</td>
<td width="34">
.282
</td>
<td width="34">
.360
</td>
<td width="34">
.529
</td>
<td width="34">
17
</td>
<td width="34">
.889
</td>
<td width="34">
147
</td>
</tr>

<tr valign="top" style="background-color:black;">
<td width="34">
McCovey
</td>
<td width="34">
2211
</td>
<td width="34">
1229
</td>
<td width="34">
521
</td>
<td width="34">
1555
</td>
<td width="34">
.270
</td>
<td width="34">
.374
</td>
<td width="34">
.515
</td>
<td width="34">
26
</td>
<td width="34">
.889
</td>
<td width="34">
148
</td>

</tr>
<tr valign="top" style="background-color:black;">
<td width="34">
Killebrew
</td>
<td width="34">
2086
</td>
<td width="34">
1283
</td>
<td width="34">
573
</td>
<td width="34">
1584
</td>
<td width="34">
.256
</td>
<td width="34">
.376
</td>
<td width="34">
.509
</td>
<td width="34">
19
</td>
<td width="34">
.884
</td>
<td width="34">
143
</td>

</tr>
<tr valign="top" style="background-color:black;">
<td width="34">
Cepeda
</td>
<td width="34">
2351
</td>
<td width="34">
1131
</td>
<td width="34">
379
</td>
<td width="34">
1365
</td>
<td width="34">
.297
</td>
<td width="34">
.350
</td>
<td width="34">
.499
</td>
<td width="34">
142
</td>
<td width="34">
.849
</td>
<td width="34">
133
</td>

</tr>
</table>

[Oski2005]

I don't think Mark McGwire will make the hall of fame. Terrible strikeout numbers, 12 career stolen bases, mediocre hit and RBI numbers, and he only hit .300 three times, two of those seasons he played less than 100 games...


He'll make it because for McGuire, 500 homeruns still counts as an automatic ticket, for some reason, the same doesn't apply to Palmeiro.

[Howyalikemenow]

Great stats for Bags. Man... really puts into perspective how much of a bad@ss he is.

Cool article.

[Toast]

I don't think Mark McGwire will make the hall of fame. Terrible strikeout numbers, 12 career stolen bases, mediocre hit and RBI numbers, and he only hit .300 three times, two of those seasons he played less than 100 games...

He'll make it. Not first ballot, but he'll make it.

[msn]

McGuire (sp?) and Palmeiro will both make it, and they both deserve it. A lot of Hall of Fame power hitters have "horrible strikeout numbers". It goes with the territory. You are aware that the former home run king was also the strikeout king, aren't you? Additionally, power hitters often have relatively high (or at least above average) OBP and not-so-breath-taking AVG. Killebrew, for example, hit over 570 jacks and couldn't scratch .260 for his career AVG. No one argues whether *he* belongs, though. This is why I believe Red is in. Bagwell, on the other hand, is a bona fide slugger *and* hits for average--incredible.

Now, it sure was nice to see a sportswriter counting B&B among the definites. Not even two years ago, a lot of those national guys had B&B on the bubble.

I especially enjoyed one of the talking heads's article on Biggio earlier this year.

About the comparison between Bagwell and HoF first baseman--Ray Kerby over at www.astrosdaily.com has assembled a similar chart comparing Biggio to HoF second baseman. He's not the very best, but he does pretty well.

[T_in_Charlotte]

Haven't had a chance to read this yet....did they have a poll like most Sportsnation articles do?

[Icehouse]

I don't know much about baseball, but has any other team had two potential HOF players on the same team for the majority of their careers and no playoff success (I say none because we didn't do squat until last yr with Beltran)? I know baseball is more of a team sport, so I'm trying my best not to put them in Stockton & Malone category.

Again, I don't really follow baseball. School me............

[Puedlfor]

It's really unique to have two Hall of Famers on the same team, who both came up within a few years of each other, and both will retire within a year or so of each other so that they become inextricably linked in the minds of people. It's hard to make a comparison - but recently - Roger Clemens and Wade Boggs on the Red Sox for starters.

[Svpernaut]

Add it all up, and the ESPN Baseball Encyclopedia ranks him as the 21st best player (not including pitchers) of all time, entering the 2005 season.

That is pretty damn impressive... Bagwell haters please take note. Biggio is a LOCK to get in, and has been for a year or two, his hits, HBP, stolen bases, doubles, playing style and personality will make him a 1st ballot no-brainer. I think Bagwell will make it in too, just not sure if he can get in on the first ballot thanks to those "no 500 homers" bastards.

[DaDakota]

Another reason both Bags and Biggio will make it is they are quality guys and have always been good to the media...which just so happens VOTES for entry into the HOF.

Being a good guy helps....it may hurt Bonds...at least I hope it does.

DD

[msn]

it may hurt Bonds...at least I hope it does.
Bonds is a first-ballot hall of famer. He was a sure hall of famer *before* he hit 73, *before* he 'roided up. He may be a Cobb-esque a-hole and a Perry-esque cheater, but he is one of the all-time greats.

[Svpernaut]

Bonds is a first-ballot hall of famer. He was a sure hall of famer *before* he hit 73, *before* he 'roided up. He may be a Cobb-esque a-hole and a Perry-esque cheater, but he is one of the all-time greats.

Even if bonds was a convicted murderer he'd be a first ballot HOFer... the hall is full of horrible people, but great ballplayers. Now, none of them ever cheated the game the way Bonds did... but there is no way a 700HR guy isn't getting in on the first shot unless he just shoots himself in the foot with the media the 5 years after he retires.

[Hammer755]

I don't think Mark McGwire will make the hall of fame. Terrible strikeout numbers, 12 career stolen bases, mediocre hit and RBI numbers, and he only hit .300 three times, two of those seasons he played less than 100 games...

You're kidding, right? McGwire was far from a one-trick pony - he drew almost as many walks as he had strikeouts. He has a higher career OBP than Tony Gwynn! An almost 0.400 OBP, the 10th best SLG% of all-time, and nearly 600 HR. He should be an easy first-balloter.

[msn]

You're kidding, right? McGwire was far from a one-trick pony - he drew almost as many walks as he had strikeouts. He has a higher career OBP than Tony Gwynn! An almost 0.400 OBP, the 10th best SLG% of all-time, and nearly 600 HR. He should be an easy first-balloter.
I agree he is a hall-of-famer, a great chance at first ballot.

But he *was* a one-trick pony. It's just that his one trick was amazing.

OBP in his case is a function of his one trick--lots of walks, due to lots of power. Defense: not really. Speed: no. Arm: nope. Hit for average: ho-hum. Hit for power: WOW. Of the five tools, he is a hall-of-famer in exactly one.

[Hammer755]

I agree he is a hall-of-famer, a great chance at first ballot.

But he *was* a one-trick pony. It's just that his one trick was amazing.

OBP in his case is a function of his one trick--lots of walks, due to lots of power. Defense: not really. Speed: no. Arm: nope. Hit for average: ho-hum. Hit for power: WOW. Of the five tools, he is a hall-of-famer in exactly one.

I was not aware that 'tools' was part of the criteria for Hall of Fame induction. I thought it was supposed to be performance on the field.

[Sishir Chang]

One thing I've noticed about Biggio and Bagwell is that they often get UNDER-rated in Houston compared to national opinions.



Saddly that's true. Over the years there's been so many people in Houston eager to bash Bags and Bidge taking for granted just how great players they are.

[msn]

I was not aware that 'tools' was part of the criteria for Hall of Fame induction. I thought it was supposed to be performance on the field.
I believe you misunderstand me. I argued that he most certainly does belong in the Hall.

Have you ever heard the term, "5-tool player"? The "tools" have *everything* to do with "performance on the field"! I was only pointing out that even as a bona fide Hall of Famer, McGwire (I need to look up that spelling) was arguably a one-trick pony: amazing power, and not much else.

[Sishir Chang]

Umm.. Could we quit talking about baseball players "tools" as HOF qualifications. I have this awful vision of John Holmes and Dirk Diggler being inducted into Cooperstown.. :eek:

[JeeberD]

Numbers 21-40 today...
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=schoenfield/050729

23. Mark Prior and 24. Roy Oswalt
My top two Hall candidates among the 30-and-younger pitching set.

Prior's injuries, of course, raise a red flag, but I think they actually help his long-term future, since they served to limit his innings at a young age. A lot of pitchers have burned out from too many innings at a young age -- think Dwight Gooden and Fernando Valenzuela -- while many Hall of Fame pitchers didn't have heavy workloads until their mid-20s.

Oswalt, 27, is on pace for his second 20-win season, has had an ERA higher than 3.01 just once in his first five seasons, has terrific control and excellent strikeout numbers. Other than proving he can stay healthy for 10 more years and having zero recognition beyond the radar of fantasy players, he looks like a good bet.

[arkoe]

Oswalt made the second 20. (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=schoenfield/050729&num=0)

24. Roy Oswalt

Oswalt, 27, is on pace for his second 20-win season, has had an ERA higher than 3.01 just once in his first five seasons, has terrific control and excellent strikeout numbers. Other than proving he can stay healthy for 10 more years and having zero recognition beyond the radar of fantasy players, he looks like a good bet.

Edit: Beat me by a minute.

[msn]

Umm.. Could we quit talking about baseball players "tools" as HOF qualifications. I have this awful vision of John Holmes and Dirk Diggler being inducted into Cooperstown.. :eek:
That's why Bagwell is such a lock for the Hall. A solid five-tool player in his prime, he is the complete package. :p

[Buck Turgidson]

Saddly that's true. Over the years there's been so many people in Houston eager to bash Bags and Bidge taking for granted just how great players they are.
Only if you take the rantings of the typical sports radio caller as indicative of anything other than the general opinion of the type of person who garners his knowledge from a talk radio program.

But I agree in a larger sense - Houston baseball fan has absolutely no idea how lucky they've been the past decade-plus.

[codell]

Ive always felt that if Palmeiro isn't a HOFer, then it would make the case for Bagwell pretty difficult. This writer feels differently.

HMMMMMMM

[TheFreak]

Does anyone have any information on how difficult it was to hit homeruns in the Astrodome during Bagwell's time? What year did they move the fences in? Did they move them in more than once?

[francis 4 prez]

maybe my browser screwed up something, but is anyone else missing #31 and #33-36 on the 21-40 list?

[Svpernaut]

maybe my browser screwed up something, but is anyone else missing #31 and #33-36 on the 21-40 list?

You must be viewing in Firefox.... Firefox is having trouble with all of the tables in the code, happens quite often unfortunately. I love Firefox, but it can't determine code on it's own quite like IE. Firefox isn't closing the table tags just past Kent's stats comparison table.

The "AS" refers to All-Star appearances, not All-'Stache team, although Kent would make that in a landslide. Final conclusion: He doesn't look out of place in the above list. I think he needs two more productive years after this one, and he'll have to line up behind Roberto Alomar and Craig Biggio. But he makes it.


33. Trevor Hoffman
Of the modern closers, only Mariano Rivera can match Hoffman's dominance and consistency. He's about to move past John Franco for second on the all-time saves list. He has saved 89 percent of his opportunities (a total surpassed only by Eric Gagne and John Smoltz for those with at least 50 saves). And he has one of the top three entry songs of all time (AC/DC's "Hell's Bells").


34. Francisco Rodriguez
K-Rod's got the potential to be one of the best closers ever.
I expect K-Rod to thank me in his Hall of Fame speech.

OUT: John Franco, Eric Gagne, Braden Looper


35. Adam Dunn
The crystal ball predicts 702 home runs and 4,685 strikeouts.

OUT: Bobby Abreu
But he'll make the Sabermetric Hall of Fame and the Fantasy Baseball Hall of Fame.

36. Johnny Damon
Whoa … hold on there, Schoenfield … Johnny Damon? The Hair Hall of Fame, sure, but Cooperstown? Yes, I'm surprised, too, since Damon has been an All-Star just twice and hit .300 just three times. (He's headed for a fourth.) Here's why he makes it: Damon will get 3,000 hits. If he does, he's as good as butter. The long-locked one has over 1,720 hits and should finish the season with around 1,800. He's 31. If he averages a conservative 160 hits per season (he's had more than that every year since 1998) through age 36, he's sitting at 2,600 and thinking Cooperstown. He's also coming up on his eighth season of 100 runs scored -- only 27 others have that many. And only 11 have done it 10 times (Alex Rodriguez would make it 12 this year). He's better than we realize.

OUT: David Ortiz, Jason Varitek, Trot Nixon, Bill Mueller, Mark Bellhorn

OUT: Garret Anderson
Anderson has an outside shot at 3,000 hits. He's not a great player due to his mediocre on-base percentage and has only topped 30 home runs once, but that magic barrier makes him a candidate.

[gwayneco]

Only if you take the rantings of the typical sports radio caller as indicative of anything other than the general opinion of the type of person who garners his knowledge from a talk radio program.

But I agree in a larger sense - Houston baseball fan has absolutely no idea how lucky they've been the past decade-plus.

True. Has there been a better 1B/2B combo? I guess you could make some arguments for Greenberg/Gehringer or Gehrig/Lazzeri. Maybe there are some more modern combos that are comparable, but right now I'm stuck in 1935 and can't get out.

[Buck Turgidson]

right now I'm stuck in 1935 and can't get out.
Then throw on some Bob Wills & enjoy the stay.

[Beck]

Saddly that's true. Over the years there's been so many people in Houston eager to bash Bags and Bidge taking for granted just how great players they are.

I also think people under-rate him because of his lackluster playoff performance and hes never made a world series. He's 1-5 in playoff series, and a career .232 hitter in the postseason. He was actually worse than that in 1997-99, when he had his monster regular season years.

Bottom line, you can argue hes the best NL first baseman in the last 40 years. The guy has unbelievable stats in every category. Hes a 40-30 first baseman, thats unheard of these days.

[redgoose]

Bags and Bidge will probably gain some votes for playing on the same team for their whole career. That's a very rare oddity these days. :cool:

[Buck Turgidson]

True. Has there been a better 1B/2B combo? I guess you could make some arguments for Greenberg/Gehringer or Gehrig/Lazzeri. Maybe there are some more modern combos that are comparable...
Perez/Morgan is the only one I can think of that's comparable, no others have the longevity as a combo that these guys do. Palmeiro/Alomar only played together for 3 seasons.

[gwayneco]

Perez/Morgan is the only one I can think of that's comparable, no others have the longevity as a combo that these guys do. Palmeiro/Alomar only played together for 3 seasons.

Yep, I don't think a lot of fans really understand how fortunate we've been to have them.

And I did put on some Bob Wills. Thanks for the idea!