Hey prolifers, who's to be damned for the loss this fetus?

[wnes]

A Wife's Plea

(link (http://www.antiwar.com/orig/abukhdair.php?articleid=6250))

by Lidia Abukhdair

I am the wife of Staff Sgt. Ali Abukhdair. Under different circumstances, he would be the one addressing this letter to you, but because he is in the military he has lost his freedom of speech and was ordered not to talk to the media.

My husband is currently an active member of the United States military. He has been serving his country since June 1994. He was deployed for 12 months to Iraq with the 101st Airborne (Air Assault) Division. He was also deployed to a combat zone in Kosovo while he was stationed in Germany. He is a faithful Muslim of Palestinian origin.

Currently, he is assigned to the 28th Quartermaster 49th Group. They are to deploy sometime during the first days of June. He has filed for conscientious objector (CO) status under AR 600-43. Under regulations, the process is supposed to take 90 days to reach the headquarters of the Department of the Army.

It has been over 90 days since he applied in February. Regulations state that they are to place him in duties that conflict as minimally as possible with his beliefs, which his unit has not done at all. They have sent him to the range to qualify with a weapon, and they have sent him to live-fire exercises. They have also given him a vehicle license for a which he has not been trained and is not qualified for.

When he we went to see his first sergeant to apply for CO status, he was told that all he was doing was trying to get out of deployment, despite this being his third major deployment and the fact that he was a member of the 101st and one of the first to enter Iraq.

He went to see the chaplain, and he recommended a discharge, which is not what my husband wants because he is applying for noncombatant duties to finish his obligations to the military. If the Army wants to give him a discharge, then he has no choice but to accept. He would rather accept this than violate his beliefs by being in any kind of violence.

Application for CO status proceeds as follows: unit commander, post chaplain, mental evaluation, investigating officer. His commander approved his application, the chaplain believes my husband is sincere in his beliefs and request for CO status, the mental evaluation report said my husband was sane, and the investigating officer also approved his claim and believes my husband's sincerity. When my husband went to see the battalion commander about his situation, all the BC wanted to know is which dialect of Arabic my husband speaks and how he helped the 101st in Iraq as a translator. The BC is biased because of the mission.

About two months ago, I was pregnant. I was about five months, and my husband sent me to stay with a girlfriend of mine because I was stressed about his situation. After a couple of weeks, I had a miscarriage. My husband came and picked me up, but his command did not want to give him any time off. We are trying to get some type of counseling, but are not having an easy time. Since I am from the Dominican Republic, I do not have permanent resident status in this country and my visa is about to expire. My husband has told his command numerous times of our situation but is not getting much help or time off. I don't have a driver's license, so it will be hard for me to go shopping or to the doctor. My military identification is about to expire, and I can't get a new one until I complete my immigration paperwork . He also told his command about that, and they basically told him that it's his problem.

My husband joined the military to pay for school. He did his duty and risked his life numerous times. He is just tired of violating his religious beliefs about war. He has tried to let the military know this and has sought counseling, but the military doesn't care. His first sergeant repeatedly tells his soldiers that all he cares about is making sure 145 bodies deploy -- and nobody is going to get out of deployment.

[MadMax]

uh. i don't get it.

do you think someone is to be damned for EVERY death?

[ima_drummer2k]

Ah, yes. The patented D&D callout thread. Complete with a link to antiwar dot com.

Love it!

[wnes]

Originally posted by MadMax
uh. i don't get it.

do you think someone is to be damned for EVERY death?

No.

But why the brouhaha about abortion then?!

[MadMax]

Originally posted by wnes
No.

But why the brouhaha about abortion then?!

are you kidding??? seriously???


this is a miscarriage. people die of natural causes all the time. my grandfather died of a heart attack. my grandmother died of lung cancer. no one was responsible. no one snuffed out their lives. had my grandparents lost their lives as a result of someone else's actions...or someone denying them their lives...then you'd have a punishable offense, potentially.

do you seriously not see the difference between a miscarriage and an abortion???

[wnes]

Originally posted by MadMax
are you kidding??? seriously???


this is a miscarriage. people die of natural causes all the time. my grandfather died of a heart attack. my grandmother died of lung cancer. no one was responsible. no one snuffed out their lives. had my grandparents lost their lives as a result of someone else's actions...or someone denying them their lives...then you'd have a punishable offense, potentially.

do you seriously not see the difference between a miscarriage and an abortion???

Are you saying all miscarriages are due to natural causes? Isn't there any induced or inflicted miscarriage?

It's amusing a prolifer would choose "nature" over God on the matter of life.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by wnes
Are you saying all miscarriages are due to natural causes? Isn't there any induced or inflicted miscarriage?

It's amusing a prolifer would choose "nature" over God on the matter of life.

what is this thread about?? are you seriously just calling people out??

call it God, if you wish. I'll call it God, if it makes you feel better. I don't know if you believe in God or not...but I'll leave you to "damn" Him for administering over life and death.

i don't know about induced on inflicted miscarriages. i don't know enough about it.

[rhester]

Originally posted by wnes
Are you saying all miscarriages are due to natural causes? Isn't there any induced or inflicted miscarriage?

It's amusing a prolifer would choose "nature" over God on the matter of life.

Miscarriages are unintended. No one mentioned cause.

I think you understand what the intent to kill means.

The cause of death in an abortion is not even a topic.

The cause of death in a miscarriage is worth researching as many doctors are working to reduce the number of miscarriages.

"Isn't there any induced or inflicted miscarriage" they are calling that abortion??????????

[Cesar^Geronimo]

on the other hand --- why would someone sign up and join the army then say they were conscientious objectors? If you aren't willing to go into combat don't sign up! He wasn't drafted he voluntereed. I remember hearing of some doctors complaining of being called into active duty. They used the miliatary to pay for school but then didn't want to hold up there end of the bargain.

As far as helping his wife, I think the goverment owes that to the families of men in harms way.

[mleahy999]

This is a terrible reach. Your soapbox priviledges should be reviewed.

[JuanValdez]

This thread is nonsensical. The miscarriage is not even the point of the article that starts the thread. :confused:

[MadMax]

Originally posted by JuanValdez
This thread is nonsensical. The miscarriage is not even the point of the article that starts the thread. :confused:

oh, yeah??? well what about your inherent contradictions and hypocrisy about steroids in baseball, JV???


what? there was one? ;)

[ima_drummer2k]

Originally posted by JuanValdez
This thread is nonsensical. The miscarriage is not even the point of the article that starts the thread. :confused:
Well, can you prove it's not true?????

[wnes]

Originally posted by mleahy999
This is a terrible reach.

Hmm, stern admonishment from someone who suggested 9 lb pot be something of a haystack like this:

http://www.izix.com/personal/photos/west/images/HayBale.jpg

[SamFisher]

Originally posted by ima_drummer2k
Ah, yes. The patented D&D callout thread. Complete with a link to antiwar dot com.

Love it!

The patented imadrummer2k D&D one liner. You actually do love it, I think.

[langal]

Umm.. the military is to be blamed? And therefore, conservatives are to be blamed, and thus ... pro-lifers are to be blamed!

Wow - that completely changes my positions on war, economy, and abortion.

[glynch]

Can we at least agree that when you bomb Iraqi women and they and their unborn fetuses die, that this is not being pro-life?

[TheFreak]

Well, I guess you can say goodbye to the pro-life movement after this thread. Exposed, big time.

[mleahy999]

Originally posted by wnes
Hmm, stern admonishment from someone who suggested 9 lb pot be something of a haystack like this:

http://www.izix.com/personal/photos/west/images/HayBale.jpg

This is in jest. Anyone with basic intelligence understands a bale of hay does not represent 9 lbs of goodies. Another reach on your part.

[Buck Turgidson]

Thank you glynch, for making this thread complete.

[wnes]

Originally posted by TheFreak
Well, I guess you can say goodbye to the pro-life movement after this thread. Exposed, big time.

To make myself clear, I am not pro-abortion. I think it should only be done, regrettably, when one doesn't have other sensible choices.

What I have a gripe with, is that while I agree with them on principle - that every life should be treasured, most prolifers seem to forever attach themselves only with the livelyhood of fetuses in the case of abortions. The losses of lives of born (and innocent) human beings, on the other hand, are hardly given enough attention to by the prolifers.

This kind of hypocrisy is magnified by the prolifers' collective, eerie silence on the large-scaled casualties caused by the ill-intended, insufficiently preprared, and poorly executed Iraqi War. On the one hand, they lament the decay of social morals, condemn the incessant killing of fetuses by heartless abortion practitioners. On the other hand, they turn blind eyes to the extreme cruelties inflicted upon the innocent lives lost in this war - be it collateral damages caused by cluster bombs, or "unintended" disasterous consequences from the use of depleted uranium shells in a supposedly "conventional warfare".

In this case, the death of an innocent fetus inside the womb of an higly distressed woman, who had to live through the anguish of anticipating her husband (who objects to killing) coming back intact, barely fazed the tender hearts of the prolifers who so care about fetus - much above every other forms of life. Abortion is a miscarriage with a directly physical force by human being. The said miscarriage due to stress and hardship to the well-being of the mother was caused by this man-made war, not some freaking natural disaster, or God specified destiny.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by wnes
To make myself clear, I am not pro-abortion. I think it should only be done, regrettably, when one doesn't have other sensible choices.

What I have a gripe with, is that while I agree with them on principle - that every life should be treasured, most prolifers seem to forever attach themselves only with the livelyhood of fetuses in the case of abortions. The losses of lives of born (and innocent) human beings, on the other hand, are hardly given enough attention to by the prolifers.

This kind of hypocrisy is magnified by the prolifers' collective, eerie silence on the large-scaled casualties caused by the ill-intended, insufficiently preprared, and poorly executed Iraqi War. On the one hand, they lament the decay of social morals, condemn the incessant killing of fetuses by heartless abortion practitioners. On the other hand, they turn blind eyes to the extreme cruelties inflicted upon the innocent lives lost in this war - be it collateral damages caused by cluster bombs, or "unintended" disasterous consequences from the use of depleted uranium shells in a supposedly "conventional warfare".

In this case, the death of an innocent fetus inside the womb of an higly distressed woman, who had to live through the anguish of anticipating her husband (who objects to killing) coming back intact, barely fazed the tender hearts of the prolifers who so care about fetus - much above every other forms of life. Abortion is a miscarriage with a directly physical force by human being. The said miscarriage due to stress and hardship to the well-being of the mother was caused by this man-made war, not some freaking natural disaster, or God specified destiny.

wow. generalize much?

do you think that to be pro-life you have to be pro-war? ask these guys if that's the case http://www.democratsforlife.org/

ask the Catholic Church...the Lutheran Church...the Presbyterian Church..the Methodist Church..the Episcoplian Church...ask those groups if they agree with you.

you need to get out more and meet more people who have ideas different from your own. you'll find that people can't be compartmentalized as easily as you might have thought.

[andymoon]

Honestly, it is a good article that points out some of the problems cropping up in the military today. I think it is a little sad that this family has had so many issues. Only a little sad, but sad nonetheless.

However, this has nothing to do with the abortion debate.

[wnes]

Originally posted by MadMax
wow. generalize much?

do you think that to be pro-life you have to be pro-war? ask these guys if that's the case http://www.democratsforlife.org/

ask the Catholic Church...the Lutheran Church...the Presbyterian Church..the Methodist Church..the Episcoplian Church...ask those groups if they agree with you.

you need to get out more and meet more people who have ideas different from your own. you'll find that people can't be compartmentalized as easily as you might have thought.

I can see with things unfolded, more and more prolifers who were initially for the war are now against it (heck, even many non-prolifers have switched boats) . However, do most prolifers oppose the war with the same vigor and passion as they do to abortion? I say, hardly.

(To andymoon, I never intended to turn this thread into another abortion debate. My arguments were 1) most prolifers seem to care more about fetuses than living human beings, 2) even so, as glynch pointed out, fetuses died from war (directly or indirectly) didn't cause much concern from these prolifers.)

[bnb]

so the puzzle unfolds...

...it's about the fetuses that die in the war!!! Not the miscarriage.

I still don't see the connection to steroids and baseball, though??

[wnes]

Originally posted by bnb
so the puzzle unfolds...

...it's about the fetuses that die in the war!!! Not the miscarriage.



Why on earth miscarriage is not related to the life/death of a fetus?

[JuanValdez]

This thread was getting pretty funny until wnes posted a half-intelligible post.

Originally posted by wnes
In this case, the death of an innocent fetus inside the womb of an higly distressed woman, who....

1) There is no indication at all in the article that the miscarriage was caused by distress on the part of the mother. She happens to mention stress and miscarriage in the same paragraph; that's all. That far into a pregnancy, miscarriages are less common, but not unheard of. **** happens. Her stress might have contributed to the miscarriage, or it might not have. Impossible to tell. Either way, the position she and her husband were in was of their own doing. The miscarriage had nothing to do with the military's decisions.

2) It annoying to read in abortion threads how prolifers don't care about the children after they are born or they don't care about mothers. Or not enough to suit you. Where do people get this information? How do people -- especially people who dislike prolifers and don't spend time socializing with people of that persuasion -- get their pulse and know what their feelings are regarding mothers in need and children in need, or what they do about those problems?

[No Worries]

Originally posted by MadMax
do you seriously not see the difference between a miscarriage and an abortion???
I take it that you are pro-miscarriage.

[wnes]

Originally posted by JuanValdez
Either way, the position she and her husband were in was of their own doing. The miscarriage had nothing to do with the military's decisions.


Let's see. Mr. Abukhdair followed exactly the procedure of filing for CO. 90 days later, no result. However, the Army didn't follow its own regulation by putting him in "duties that conflict as minimally as possible with his beliefs". This is his 3rd major deployment. He would even accept a discharge - much like a long serving employee taking an insult of being forced to leave a company just before his retirement - but the Army didn't grant either. What other options he has? Deserting? AWOL? Where is the slightest compassion expressed from any prolifer considering what he and his wife had gone through?

[JuanValdez]

Originally posted by wnes
Let's see. Mr. Abukhdair followed exactly the procedure of filing for CO. 90 days later, no result. However, the Army didn't follow its own regulation by putting him in "duties that conflict as minimally as possible with his beliefs". This is his 3rd major deployment. He would even accept a discharge - much like a long serving employee taking an insult of being forced to leave a company just before his retirement - but the Army didn't grant either. What other options he has? Deserting? AWOL? Where is the slightest compassion expressed from any prolifer considering what he and his wife had gone through?

What does that have to do with the miscarriage? I'm not following you at all.

[meggoleggo]

Originally posted by wnes
Why on earth miscarriage is not related to the life/death of a fetus?

I don't think that that's not what anyone is saying here. I think everyone here knows and fully relates a miscarriage to the death of a fetus. It's the fact that through no direct physical harm (like being pushed down some stairs or going to an abortion clinic) this fetus died. This fetus did not die in war either.

Now I do agree that if the military would actually quit dragging its collective ass on the issues, this woman would have been less stressed. But I'm not going to say that if she had been less stressed that this fetus would certainly have survived. And I'm not going to say that any one party is responsible for the miscarriage.

What I am going to agree with is this:
Can we at least agree that when you bomb Iraqi women and they and their unborn fetuses die, that this is not being pro-life?

[Sishir Chang]

In this case, the death of an innocent fetus inside the womb of an higly distressed woman, who had to live through the anguish of anticipating her husband (who objects to killing) coming back intact, barely fazed the tender hearts of the prolifers who so care about fetus - much above every other forms of life. Abortion is a miscarriage with a directly physical force by human being. The said miscarriage due to stress and hardship to the well-being of the mother was caused by this man-made war, not some freaking natural disaster, or God specified destiny.

I think I follow your point but it seems pretty strained. Miscarriages happen all the time and while stress is one factor there are many other factors that could've caused it. In regard to people like Mad Max and Rhester they draw a very big distinction between miscarriage and abortion and it is one of the central pieces of their arguments against abortion. That one is artificial and intentional while the other is natural and accidental. So I think its off base to try to make them feel guilty over an issue where the already make a distinction.

[Sishir Chang]

2) It annoying to read in abortion threads how prolifers don't care about the children after they are born or they don't care about mothers. Or not enough to suit you. Where do people get this information? How do people -- especially people who dislike prolifers and don't spend time socializing with people of that persuasion -- get their pulse and know what their feelings are regarding mothers in need and children in need, or what they do about those problems?

That's a generalization but its one that's not totally without basis when you look at the policies championed by many of the most ardent pro-life politicians. These are people who will argue about the need to preserve the lives of fetus's yet will argue just as vociferiously for cutting programs that support things childcare, early education, access to prenatal and pediatric health care and even oppose family leave.

[StupidMoniker]

If you have problems serving in combat, I don't understand why you would think it is a good idea to join the military. Sounds like somebody trying to con the government. If you are against pre-marital sex, don't be a porn-star. If you are against serving in combat, don't be a soldier. This isn't real complicated stuff.

I think it is a little disturbing that he had no problems fighting Christians in Kosovo (in defense of Muslims) but felt the need to become a conscientious objector now that he is asked to serve as a quartermaster (not even a front line soldier, but a supply person) now that the enemy is predominantly Muslim.

All of that being said, this thread seems to have very little relationship to one's stance on abortion, so I have the same problem with the calling out that many others have expressed.

[MadMax]

I take it that you are pro-miscarriage.


oh, you know it!!! i'm Mr. Miscarriage. i'm involved with several organizations that promote miscarriage.

where am i??

what the hell is this thread about, anyway?

[andymoon]

If you are against pre-marital sex, don't be a porn-star.

What if you are married to your co-star? ;)

[StupidMoniker]

What if you are married to your co-star? ;)

The only people in the industry that have the power to pick all of their co-stars (or in this case, limit themselves to one partner) are those who produce their own stuff. Even establised stars are not going to get work with only one partner, the best you can hope for is only your spouse as a male partner plus many lez partners. I don't know if there are any male, non-producer stars that only perform with one partner. So, it is fine to produce your own stuff and only perform with your husband, but that makes you more of a porn mogul than a porn star. :)

I suppose this just illustrates the point that there are limited exception to everything. If you were great at some job that the military needs that would not likely put you in a combat situation (satellite photo analyst, etc.) then you could certainly serve even if you have a problem going into combat, but that is not the situation here. We have a grunt that decided he suddenly is uncomfortable with going into combat, even as a quartermaster.

[Sishir Chang]

You sure seem to know a lot about the porn industry. ;)

[JuanValdez]

That's a generalization but its one that's not totally without basis when you look at the policies championed by many of the most ardent pro-life politicians. These are people who will argue about the need to preserve the lives of fetus's yet will argue just as vociferiously for cutting programs that support things childcare, early education, access to prenatal and pediatric health care and even oppose family leave.

Well, wnes was talking to 'prolifers' not pro-life politicians. And, pro-life politicians generally would cut such programs due to a mostly seperate philosophy concerned about the role of government in society, not simply because they are heartless bastards. A prolifer (who is not a politician) isn't fettered by concerns about the role of government or their duty to constituency, to a balanced budget, to adminsitrative efficiency, to greasing the wheels of government or any of the other myriad concerns of a politician. In those things, they have their one vote to worry about. Otherwise, though there are things a citizen can do beside the vote: working in church and charitable organizations, donations, advocacy, and the like. Living out their beliefs in their own lives. There's a lot more to a person than how he votes. So, I don't think it's fair to make generalizations about a segment of the population by looking at their corresponding role in another population (the Congress). It just makes for easy grandstanding.

[MadMax]

So, I don't think it's fair to make generalizations about a segment of the population by looking at their corresponding role in another population (the Congress). It just makes for easy grandstanding.

which pretty much sums up this thread and about half the D&D...assumptions about other people across the board based on their take on one certain issue.

[StupidMoniker]

You sure seem to know a lot about the porn industry. ;)

To me it is fascinating. I think it is the only industry where women make more money than men, yet it is traditionally viewed as degrading to women, and often abusive of women.

[andymoon]

To me it is fascinating. I think it is the only industry where women make more money than men, yet it is traditionally viewed as degrading to women, and often abusive of women.

Do women make more than the men? That would make sense to me, but I could have sworn I saw an article that claimed otherwise.

[StupidMoniker]

Do women make more than the men? That would make sense to me, but I could have sworn I saw an article that claimed otherwise.

I read that women make more per scene than men in male/female scenes, but lez scenes pay less than male gay scenes (and men in male/male scenes are not necessarily gay in their private lives, some are "gay for pay"). It is funny to me that a thread about the war in Iraq that was titled to be a call-out of the pro-life movement has evolved into a discussion of the adult film industry. :)

[Ottomaton]

call it God, if you wish. I'll call it God, if it makes you feel better. I don't know if you believe in God or not...but I'll leave you to "damn" Him for administering over life and death.


Not to ask an actual question, but given that the general idea implied herein that a fetus is no different in moral terms from a fully developed human being, does the fetus go to hell for not having been baptized? Should the fetus be given a name and given a spot in the family burial plot?

I read a statistic that sited that a percentage greater than half of all fetuses are miscarried before the woman even knows she is pregnant. Do all these count as full fledged deaths and should they account accordingly?

The way this discussion always shakes out reminds me quite a bit of the discussion around Napster. The recording industry is so strict in declaring that downloading music is the equal of breaking and entering, that you only have "pure, concentrated EVIL!" (name the movie) or it's the exact opposite.

If I reject that a fetus is 100% the equal of a human life, something that has been evident for me from the first time I thought on the issue, I have to be 100% "pro-choice" in all ways. You have people making threads like this, trying to point out what (to me) seem like exceptionally logical places where a fetus is not treated to be the 100% equal of a human being. Failure to recognize where these differences occur results in what (from my perspective) appears to be an argument in which one side avoids basic logic when it sits right in front of them.

I don't accept that by downloading from Napster is the same as stealing the Mona Lisa from the Louvre, but I can still accept that downloading from Napster is wrong in it's own right. Listening to the recording industry hacks argue otherwise makes it very difficult for me to think of the argument in terms other than the black and white terms that they submit. By "betting the farm" on the jackpot, they make it nearly impossible for themselves to win.

I honestly believe that if some pro-life person would say something like "well obviously it's not 100% the moral equal of a independent baby, but it's 90% or 50% or 70% of the way there and therefore deserves some consideration" then there might be some more logical discussion of the problem.

Of course, this can result in logic that accepts abortion when various levels of danger to the mother's life are present. If you believe that mother's should die in childbirth rather than consider abortion then I guess there is a bit more logic to your argument, but I don't believe that most people actually believe that there is no place where an abortion is a legitimate consideration, any more than the concept of triage in an ER is unacceptable.

And, though I already here the response about "NOW pro-abortion Feminazi's", I submit that you really have to dig deep to find the particular intractability on the issue that one sees on the average from the pro-life people. Some of them exist; they're just a much smaller fringe. Conversely, all of the pro-choice people I know, when pressed, will admit that there are at least some occasions when an abortion is inappropriate, "third trimester abortion" being the most discussed. They just refuse to accept the initial assertion that the fetus and a fully developed child are the same thing, and so gravitate towards the arguments from the others side.

[Ottomaton]

Do women make more than the men? That would make sense to me, but I could have sworn I saw an article that claimed otherwise.


I would think that, at least until the Viagra era, it would have made more sense to pay larger sums to men, as there are more men who would be disqualified for reasons of "poor acting". I would think this would more than offset the argument about ingrained cultural attitudes towards sex which would suggest a bias towards women’s salaries.

[Sishir Chang]

Well, wnes was talking to 'prolifers' not pro-life politicians. And, pro-life politicians generally would cut such programs due to a mostly seperate philosophy concerned about the role of government in society, not simply because they are heartless bastards.

But to the extent that abortion is a political issue the views and actions of pro-life politicians do matter to assessing the pro-life side no more than a Democrat could ignore Howard Dean's latest rants.

As for whether pro-life politicians are heartless bastards or not I'm sure they don't believe they are but I think there dedications to reducing the need for abortions by making it easier to raise children should be questioned.

[Sishir Chang]

Of course, this can result in logic that accepts abortion when various levels of danger to the mother's life are present. If you believe that mother's should die in childbirth rather than consider abortion then I guess there is a bit more logic to your argument, but I don't believe that most people actually believe that there is no place where an abortion is a legitimate consideration, any more than the concept of triage in an ER is unacceptable.[/rant]

Interesting take but there are several situations where the right of one human cannot be imposed over the rights of another even if that results in death of the first.

I usually cite that in regard to saying even if we regard fetuses as human that still might not end abortion but it could go the other way that if we regard fetuses as human it could be the obligation of the women to bring the fetus to term even if it results in injury or death to her.

[giddyup]

I honestly believe that if some pro-life person would say something like "well obviously it's not 100% the moral equal of a independent baby, but it's 90% or 50% or 70% of the way there and therefore deserves some consideration" then there might be some more logical discussion of the problem.
Talk to andymoon. His position is that the child in utero is 0% human... until such time as s/he can survive outside of the womb. And the pro-Lifers are called the extremists?

[rhester]

Not to ask an actual question, but given that the general idea implied herein that a fetus is no different in moral terms from a fully developed human being, does the fetus go to hell for not having been baptized? Should the fetus be given a name and given a spot in the family burial plot?

I read a statistic that sited that a percentage greater than half of all fetuses are miscarried before the woman even knows she is pregnant. Do all these count as full fledged deaths and should they account accordingly?

The way this discussion always shakes out reminds me quite a bit of the discussion around Napster. The recording industry is so strict in declaring that downloading music is the equal of breaking and entering, that you only have "pure, concentrated EVIL!" (name the movie) or it's the exact opposite.

If I reject that a fetus is 100% the equal of a human life, something that has been evident for me from the first time I thought on the issue, I have to be 100% "pro-choice" in all ways. You have people making threads like this, trying to point out what (to me) seem like exceptionally logical places where a fetus is not treated to be the 100% equal of a human being. Failure to recognize where these differences occur results in what (from my perspective) appears to be an argument in which one side avoids basic logic when it sits right in front of them.

I don't accept that by downloading from Napster is the same as stealing the Mona Lisa from the Louvre, but I can still accept that downloading from Napster is wrong in it's own right. Listening to the recording industry hacks argue otherwise makes it very difficult for me to think of the argument in terms other than the black and white terms that they submit. By "betting the farm" on the jackpot, they make it nearly impossible for themselves to win.

I honestly believe that if some pro-life person would say something like "well obviously it's not 100% the moral equal of a independent baby, but it's 90% or 50% or 70% of the way there and therefore deserves some consideration" then there might be some more logical discussion of the problem.

Of course, this can result in logic that accepts abortion when various levels of danger to the mother's life are present. If you believe that mother's should die in childbirth rather than consider abortion then I guess there is a bit more logic to your argument, but I don't believe that most people actually believe that there is no place where an abortion is a legitimate consideration, any more than the concept of triage in an ER is unacceptable.

And, though I already here the response about "NOW pro-abortion Feminazi's", I submit that you really have to dig deep to find the particular intractability on the issue that one sees on the average from the pro-life people. Some of them exist; they're just a much smaller fringe. Conversely, all of the pro-choice people I know, when pressed, will admit that there are at least some occasions when an abortion is inappropriate, "third trimester abortion" being the most discussed. They just refuse to accept the initial assertion that the fetus and a fully developed child are the same thing, and so gravitate towards the arguments from the others side.



Moral is a good word- Webster's Dictionary defines it as 'relating to principles of right and wrong behavior'

I just would like to say that most health professionals favor that right behavior is to protect the developing baby by doing the right things during pregnancy that will not result in the death of the baby. Mothers and doctors have always seen a moral duty to protect a pregnancy, even at conception. Here is one website's list of right and wrong principles to protect the unborn baby:

"The key is taking good care of your own health. It will help ensure a healthy pregnancy — from embryo, to fetus, to the birth of your child. The healthier you are, the stronger both of you are likely to be.

Here's our best advice for making good lifestyle choices to prepare for having a healthy baby:


Get plenty of exercise.

Get plenty of rest. Learn how to cut back on stress. Enjoy yourself.

Be aware of dangers on the job.

Avoid alcohol and other drugs.

Avoid infections.

Don't smoke.

There are very dangerous chemicals in tobacco smoke. Carbon monoxide, nicotine, and cyanide cut off oxygen to the fetus. They cause


low birth weight

miscarriage

stillbirth

life-threatening complications

infant death"

Link (http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/files/portal/medicalinfo/pregnancy/pub-pregnancy-lifestyle.xml)

[Gutter Snipe]

A lot of issues here. Since I believe that humans have a soul, I'm obviously pro-life - but trying to bring a miscarriage into a pro-life discussion is just flame bait.

I don't have much pity for the soldier. I think that conscientious objector status is more of a relic from the days when we had a draft. He CHOSE to join the army. If he wanted to serve the country without killing people maybe he should have chosen the coast guard or something. Or maybe he could have chosen to have student loans like the rest of us.

It looks to me that he saw CO status as an easy way out, and now he's upset that it isn't going as smoothly as he thought it would. I agree that the army needs to process these things as there regulations state - but if you've dealt with the government at all, you know things never go smoothly or quickly.