Obesity is a disease???

[MartianMan]

The situation in US has become ridiculous. The practice of blaming the government and society for personal problems have reached an all-time high...



C.D.C. Team Investigates an Outbreak of Obesity

By GINA KOLATA
Published: June 3, 2005

For the first time, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has sent a team of specialists into a state, West Virginia, to study an outbreak of obesity in the same way it studies an outbreak of an infectious disease.

Kerri Kennedy, the program manager at the West Virginia Physical Activity and Nutrition Program, said the state had requested the agency's investigation.

"We were looking at our data," Ms. Kennedy said, and saw that "we are facing a severe health crisis."

The state ranked third in the nation for obesity - 27.6 percent of its adults were obese, compared with 20.4 percent in the country as a whole. And, Ms. Kennedy said, "our rate of obesity appears to be increasing faster than the rest of the nation."

Going along with the obesity was a high prevalence of diabetes and high blood pressure, which are associated with extra pounds. West Virginia ranks fourth in the nation for diabetes, with 10.2 percent of the population affected, compared with 6.4 percent nationwide. And it is No. 1 in its prevalence of high blood pressure, with 33.1 percent having the condition, compared with 25.8 percent of people nationwide.

So the state asked the agency's disease detectives to tackle its obesity problem, and a three-week investigation began on April 25. It focused, Ms. Kennedy said, on two places that represented towns and cities in the state - Gilmer County, with 7,160 residents, and Clarksburg, a city with 16,743 residents.

The investigative teams spent a week and a half in each place, going to schools and asking about physical education programs and about what sort of food was provided. They asked, for example, whether students "were offered at least one or two appealing fruits and vegetables every day," Ms. Kennedy said. And "would you replace regular sour cream with low-fat sour cream?"

They went to workplaces, asking whether there were policies to encourage physical activity. For example, Ms. Kennedy said, "if you choose to walk, could you have an extra 15 or 20 minutes added to your lunch break?" And, were there items like 100-percent fruit juices and bottled water in vending machines?

They went to random grocery stores and restaurants, asking whether they offered fruits and vegetables and skim or 1 percent milk. And they asked whether it was safe to walk along the roads, whether there were sidewalks and whether they were in good repair, whether there was good lighting for walking at night.

"The C.D.C. came up with the questions for us," Ms. Kennedy said. But, she noted, many of the questions, like the ones about sidewalks, were designed for urban areas. She said she was not sure how well they would work in rural West Virginia, and some statisticians said they did not think the study would work at all.

Dr. Julie Gerberding, the director of the disease centers, said in a press conference yesterday that this type of investigation was a first for the agency.

"This has never happened in the history of the C.D.C," she said.

The centers held the news conference to clarify its position on weight and obesity. Agency scientists recently published a study concluding that overweight people had a lower risk of death than normal-weight people and that even obese people did not have much of a risk of early death unless they were extremely obese. A year earlier, different researchers at the agency published a study saying that obesity and extra weight were markedly raising death rates in this country.

Obese people were defined as having a body mass index, a measurement of weight in relation to height, of 30 to 34.9; the extremely obese had an index of 35 or higher.

Dr. Gerberding said that there were still questions about the best ways to estimate death risks from extra weight but that there was no question about the health impacts of being obese or overweight, which can increase the risk of diseases like diabetes, high blood pressure, arthritis and some cancers. Being obese or overweight, Dr. Gerberding emphasized, are "critically important health threats" and the agency is increasing efforts to understand the causes of the obesity epidemic and how to help people lose weight and keep it off.

The West Virginia data are now at the agency, being analyzed. Some preliminary information may be available in August, Ms. Kennedy said.

Rudy Philips, a 27-year-old clinical nursing assistant who lives in Clarksburg, said that he was unaware of the study, but that he knew something of the dietary problems in the state. He himself had a good diet, he said, and while "I could stand to lose 5 or 10 pounds, I am not obese." But obesity is a problem in the state, he observed.

"We tend to eat a lot of fried foods, we're meat-and potatoes type people," Mr. Philips said. "Most restaurants don't have healthy choices."

But some statisticians said it was hard to see what could be learned from the agency's investigations.

Daniel McGee, a professor of statistics at Florida State University who has analyzed obesity data, burst out laughing when he heard about it. "My God, what a strange thing to do," he said.

"They'll find out what we all know - that the country is no longer set up for physical exercise," Dr. McGee said. And that schoolchildren "don't get a nutritious diet." And that "there is a lot of high-fat food on the shelves of every supermarket."

But, he said, "that doesn't tell you much."

"I'm sure skinny people go to those same restaurants," Dr. McGee said. "Skinny kids go to those same schools."

David DeMets, a professor of biostatistics at the University of Wisconsin, was also extremely skeptical.

"We get a lot of false positives from that kind of investigation," Dr. DeMets said. "We get people worried," but there is no way to know whether what is found - a lack of fruits and vegetables in the schools, for example - has anything to do with the obesity epidemic.

"Perhaps it is true, perhaps it is not," Dr. De Mets said.

[Mr. Brightside]

b.s., obesity is weakness

[PhiSlammaJamma]

Eating has nothing to do with self control or weakness. Even a skinny person gets hungry. It could very well be a disease.

[wizkid83]

Obseitity is due to the fact that people, especially in the south and west U.S. don't freaking walk and eat horrible stuff. It's b.s. if they are gonna start regulating it, here's another thought excercise some freaking self control.

[wizkid83]

Originally posted by PhiSlammaJamma
Eating has nothing to do with self control or weakness. Even a skinny person gets hungry. It could very well be a disease.


Skinny person gets hungry, but people get fat cuz they eat out of enjoyment. They enjoy food too much that they get to a point where they spend money on food that's 1) not neccessary and 2) don't work it off.

I don't think the government should have any reguations or try to get people skinny by regulation. It's your right to enjoy your self and get fat, but don't let the government come in and force your diet on you for you.

[Mr. Brightside]

Originally posted by PhiSlammaJamma
Eating has nothing to do with self control or weakness. Even a skinny person gets hungry. It could very well be a disease.

It is weakness and lack of self control, when they refuse to go to the gym. It is weakness, when you eat till you are full.

[tigermission1]

Originally posted by Mr. Brightside
It is weakness and lack of self control, when they refuse to go to the gym. It is weakness, when you eat till you are full.

It is mainly due to laziness, but not to the point that it's a "disease". You can lose weight/gain weight at anytime, but it is not some "disease" that is due to some virus or illness.

May be they should start with shutting down every major fast food chain in the country, that would do the trick!:rolleyes:

[slickvik69]

In boxing these guys lose 30 lb and become sculpted in 6-12 weeks of intense training. It's possible to lose weight and be in shape if one just puts in the effort.

[Sishir Chang]

Originally posted by tigermission1
It is mainly due to laziness, but not to the point that it's a "disease". You can lose weight/gain weight at anytime, but it is not some "disease" that is due to some virus or illness.

May be they should start with shutting down every major fast food chain in the country, that would do the trick!:rolleyes:

But the same could be said for heart disease, ephysmia, type II diabetes and several cancers. Where do we draw the line and say that the CDC and other agencies have nothing to do with those?

I agree that we're on a slippery slope in regard to regulation and am against the idea of suing fast food or regulating resturants for the health content of their food but at the same time something needs to be done about rampant obesity. Even if you're not fat there is a costs to our society from obesity related health problems from raising the cost of health care, lost productivity and even environmental damage from more dependence on energy for transportation since morbidly obese people have to rely on powered help.

[Sishir Chang]

Originally posted by slickvik69
In boxing these guys lose 30 lb and become sculpted in 6-12 weeks of intense training. It's possible to lose weight and be in shape if one just puts in the effort.

I once lost 7 pounds in two days to make weight for a tournament. I was 22 at the time and its not something I would try now.

That's an extreme case but rapid weight loss from intense training is beyond most people because of the demands it puts on even the body of healthy people.

[MartianMan]

Originally posted by Sishir Chang
But the same could be said for heart disease, ephysmia, type II diabetes and several cancers. Where do we draw the line and say that the CDC and other agencies have nothing to do with those?

Point is, Obesity is EASILY controlled by self-control. Several of those 'diseases' you listed are problems that cannot be controlled as easily even if the person begins living the 'ideal' fitness lifestyle. For example, if you just eat less you'll lose weight and many people recover from diabetes. Everyone can do it. However, cancer cannot be reversed.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by slickvik69
In boxing these guys lose 30 lb and become sculpted in 6-12 weeks of intense training. It's possible to lose weight and be in shape if one just puts in the effort.

With boxers, that is their job. They have trainers and other folks who work with them to aid in the "effort". How should the man or woman with 3 kids and a 9-5 job be expected to put in the same effort as these boxers you use as an example?

[Rocket River]

A Better Nutritional and Physical Health System in schools
could definately 'train' people for long term Healthy Life Styles

Rocket River

[KingCheetah]

How will we vaccinate ourselves against this evil scourge?

[tigermission1]

Originally posted by KingCheetah
How will we vaccinate ourselves against this evil scourge?

:D

[Mr. Brightside]

Originally posted by KingCheetah
How will we vaccinate ourselves against this evil scourge?


lol, thats like a mr. meogwi post.

[KingCheetah]

Originally posted by Mr. Brightside
lol, thats like a mr. meogwi post.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v68/kchee/kcheesmirk1.jpg

[langal]

Originally posted by KingCheetah
How will we vaccinate ourselves against this evil scourge?

simple, let's outlaw all privately produced and prepared food.

people will now eat a daily allotment of government gruel.

maybe the US should hire Kim Jong Ill to head this project.

[Invisible Fan]

Fast food and commuting

Fruits and vegetables probably reduces cancer, but the least it does for obesity is that it reduces the proportion of fatty processed foods you eat during a sitting.

[MartianMan]

Originally posted by bobrek
With boxers, that is their job. They have trainers and other folks who work with them to aid in the "effort". How should the man or woman with 3 kids and a 9-5 job be expected to put in the same effort as these boxers you use as an example?

They can eat less. Heck, that takes less effort than eating more.

[Sishir Chang]

Originally posted by MartianMan
Point is, Obesity is EASILY controlled by self-control.

If it was so easy there wouldn't be an obesity problem.

I'm leery of government regulation but we're not going to wish this problem away.

[wizkid83]

Originally posted by bobrek
With boxers, that is their job. They have trainers and other folks who work with them to aid in the "effort". How should the man or woman with 3 kids and a 9-5 job be expected to put in the same effort as these boxers you use as an example?

Energy bars for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Problem solved.

[MartianMan]

Originally posted by Sishir Chang
If it was so easy there wouldn't be an obesity problem.

I'm leery of government regulation but we're not going to wish this problem away.

I agree.

However, obesity IS easily controlled by self-control. The self-control part is the hard part.

[El Toro]

just to clarify, i don't think the CDC is doing this to dictate what we should eat. i gathered from some of the posts in here that people think the CDC is alienating one's right to pig out. what they're doing is a behavioral study whose results will be used to help prevention efforts, like making sure school kids are educated on the importance of a balanced diet and exercise program or having the proper choices at vending machines and such. IMO, the epidemic of obesity is a combination of behavioral characterists and genetics, so this should be a good start on the CDC's part, in the very least.

[MR. MEOWGI]

Originally posted by MartianMan
I agree.

However, obesity IS easily controlled by self-control. The self-control part is the hard part.

You can eat the same amount of non-fattening food as you can fattening food and not get fat. If they really don't know how bad the food is that they are eating, then self-control is pointless. It was a real eye-opener when I found out exactly what it takes for me not to gain weight. Basically I can not eat anything. :D

[Refman]

Firstly, I want to start by letting everybody know that I am NOT obese, so this is an unbiased opinion. Obesity can be caused by a number of factors. Some things to note:

1. Sedintary, stressful lifestyle, particularly for executives.

2. Most of the food in this country is crap. Even a lot of the "healthy" foods have a lot of filler instead of nutrition. A lot of people will then eat more in order to attempt to satisfy their body.

3. A shocking frequency of thyroid dysfunction. I learned of this because my wife is a class away from a masters in public health. Nobody seems to know why the frequency is what it is. All that is known is that when the thyroid levels are brought to within normal levels through medication, these people drift towards a normal weight.

Carry on with the reading of books by their cover.

[Invisible Fan]

There's this new study that confirms a correlation between obesity and the lack of sleep. Not much is known why, but sleep deals with seratonin and seratonin and other neurotransmitters are responsible for appetite. Americans are known for incurring huge sleep debts.

If Americans had more free time, less would resort to cheap and convenient fast food and more could walk instead of driving 5 minutes to the grocer.

Then again, with adequate time and preparation, there wouldn't be a billion dollar industry built upon magic pills and secret diet plans hinged upon temporary short term results.

[langal]

A new study seems to confirm the longstanding theory that obesity may be related to food intake.

[Invisible Fan]

Originally posted by langal
A new study seems to confirm the longstanding theory that obesity may be related to food intake.

Next time you see a fat relative, be sure to laugh at their face for me too.

[MartianMan]

Originally posted by Refman
Firstly, I want to start by letting everybody know that I am NOT obese, so this is an unbiased opinion. Obesity can be caused by a number of factors. Some things to note:

1. Sedintary, stressful lifestyle, particularly for executives.

2. Most of the food in this country is crap. Even a lot of the "healthy" foods have a lot of filler instead of nutrition. A lot of people will then eat more in order to attempt to satisfy their body.

3. A shocking frequency of thyroid dysfunction. I learned of this because my wife is a class away from a masters in public health. Nobody seems to know why the frequency is what it is. All that is known is that when the thyroid levels are brought to within normal levels through medication, these people drift towards a normal weight.

Carry on with the reading of books by their cover.

So basically it's:

1. By choice.

2. By choice. I'm assuming you are talking about food you buy at restaurants and fast food joints. Not food that you make yourself.

3. By choice. Thyroid dysfunction is probably the effect of over-eating. Humans aren't used to eating so much food, and some people's body can't deal with it properly.

Maybe we judge this problem as a simple problem because it is a simple problem. The answer is the hard part...for some.

[MR. MEOWGI]

Corn.

When we look back at that first Thanksgiving, so many years ago, it's tempting to feel bad for the Native Americans, who foolishly welcomed the Pilgrims and were subsequently violently massacred and given smallpox by the White Invaders from Europe.

There's some merit to this point of view, but there is at least some small ironic satisfaction in knowing that the natives introduced the Europeans to the substance which may yet be their downfall -- corn.

Corn is not inherently bad. There's a lot to be said for it. It's a hardy plant that grows with relative ease in a wide variety of climates. It can be served in a wide variety of ways. It can be mass produced affordably and it can be used to make a number of useful derivative products.

The question is: Did God in his infinite wisdom mean for every living thing on the planet to eat corn as part of every meal, every day, in mass quantities, from children to senior citizens to cows?

You see, it's not just gnawing on an ear of corn from the garden.

Corn starch is used in virtually every bread or pastry you can buy in a major chain grocery store. And with a few scattered exception, every bread you can buy anywhere else too.

Corn starch, syrup and cellulose are used in every medicine you can put in your mouth.

Then there's the sugar. Any time you see the simple word sugar on an ingredient list you can substitute "corn syrup." That means in soda, in cookies, in candy bars, even in BAGS OF SUGAR. And not just sugar. Almost every sugar-free sweetener on the market today is made from a corn product.

But just because it doesn't taste sugary doesn't mean you're clear. Corn syrup, starch and/or oil is added to french fries, peanut butter, saltines, steak sauce, table salt, margarine, iced tea, fruit juice (even ones that claim to be 100% juice), "raw" honey, fish sticks, soy milk, wine, beer, liquor, chicken nuggets, flour, barley, caramel, Vitamin C, vanilla extract, vinegar and/or yeast. Corn-derived glycerin is found in almost every soap, lotion, toothpaste and shampoo.

Anything on the label you can't pronounce is better than even odds to be corn.

Considering all this, you would think the corn industry would be a fiercely independent group of farmers who are sitting pretty on the fruits of their labor.

Not so! The U.S. corn industry (easily the world leader) gets $5.5 BILLION in federal subsidies, an ample amount of which is kicked back to politicians in the form of campaign contributions, thus perpetuating a system in which the national interest is heavily invested in creating more and more and MORE avenues through which to feed corn to an unsuspecting public.

But, amazingly enough, it gets worse. Not satisfied with being the largest single component of the average American's diet, the corn industry genetically modifies its product, sometimes without government supervision, and then distributes the end results to consumers without labeling it.

And genetically modified "supercorn" is now sweeping through North America much like Hitler wanted the Aryan strain to sweep over Europe. GM corn has already profoundly damaged Mexico's native "wild" strains of corn. Pretty soon, there won't be any unaltered corn left, even for comparison purposes.

All this would be bad enough on the face of it. The human metabolism and digestive system craves variety. Too much of the same thing is bad, especially when that thing — corn — is so undigestible that the unprocessed kernels will pass untouched through your entire digestive system to emerge whole and unscathed in your feces.

In this paradigm, people are only a little better off than cattle. Almost every chicken, pig and cow in the United States is force-fed corn. Even salmon! Alas, these animals can't properly digest a diet of all corn (not to mention the massive amounts of pesticides used to keep the corn bug free).

So the livestock gets sick. That sickness is treated by antibiotics and hormones which then bleed into virtually every piece of meat or cup of milk served in America, making the people who consume them sick.

Now, if it's really bad for cows -- who have THREE stomachs -- to eat nothing but corn, what is it doing to those of us with only ONE stomach?

The corn lobby, one of the most powerful in American politics, does not want to see that question answered. Not surprisingly, there has been little research done on the topic at our fine government supported universities and research labs. Scratch "little." There are NO studies covering the broad societal issue.

What little information HAS trickled out is pretty alarming.

The most obvious health effect of the corn glut is obesity. Granted, with a few exceptions, most people who are overweight have only themselves to blame. But we live in a world where the food industry spends millions of dollars marketing sugar (aka corn syrup) to PRE-SCHOOLERS. Food manufacturers hire people with doctorates in child psychology to help them outsmart four-year-olds (and their parents). You can even buy corn puffs coated with corn syrup, made expressly for kindergarten kids.

The processed sugar game leads to its own complications, including hyperglycemia and hypoglycemia. The symptoms for each of these disorders, interestingly enough, can be alleviated by eating more sugar, much like the symptoms for heroin withdrawal can be treated by taking heroin.

Drug guru Terence McKenna long argued that refined sugar easily fits the technical definition of an addictive drug — after all, it's harmful to your health and you suffer withdrawal symptoms if you try to quit using it. Nevertheless, heroin is considered "bad" but extraneous sugar (aka corn) is included in food and medicine products aimed at ONE-YEAR-OLDS.

Other possible effects of excessive corn consumption include diabetes (related to the aforementioned hypoglycemia), heart disease and tooth decay.

An unknown number of people additionally suffer from corn allergies. The reason the number is unknown is that it's difficult to remove all the corn from your diet to test the premise (especially if you eliminate corn-fed meat and corn-treated meat products). And if you somehow succeed in doing so, you will find that you have incidentally have removed virtually everything else from your diet as well.

So what does the future hold? More corn, in all likelihood. The U.S. government is putting out something on the order of $20 billion in farm subsidies a year, the most concentrated portion of which goes for corn.

Bush administration Health and Human Services director Tommy Thompson, the overweight man purportedly in charge of keeping the nation healthy, told ABC News in 2003 that the gigantic corn subsidies don't affect nutrition for Americans.

You see, he explained, "the subsidy programs are things that are done through Congress."

He didn't complete the thought, but we'll do it for him: "Naturally, anything done by Congress can't possibly have an effect on real people."

http://www.rotten.com/library/medicine/corn/


Not the best source, but I'm in a hurry and it gets the point across. People do not know what they are eating.

[SamFisher]

Originally posted by MartianMan
So basically it's:

1. By choice.

2. By choice. I'm assuming you are talking about food you buy at restaurants and fast food joints. Not food that you make yourself.

3. By choice. Thyroid dysfunction is probably the effect of over-eating. Humans aren't used to eating so much food, and some people's body can't deal with it properly.

Maybe we judge this problem as a simple problem because it is a simple problem. The answer is the hard part...for some.

Do you live in a cave? There is a truckload of evidence that certain folks are genetically predisposed to retain fat more than others. This is like saying dyslexic people choose not to be able to read -- they just have to study harder....:rolleyes:

[MartianMan]

Originally posted by SamFisher
Do you live in a cave? There is a truckload of evidence that certain folks are genetically predisposed to retain fat more than others. This is like saying dyslexic people choose not to be able to read -- they just have to study harder....:rolleyes:

That argument doesn't have much substance. Obesity is an effect of a cause: over-eating. Dyslexia is a disability which causes people to have difficulty to read and process words.

If the genetic factors that lead to obesity are so powerful, please point out the people in Africa and Asia that are obese. There aren't any because you need food to become obese. You don't magically become obese because of 'genetic factors'. Of course, people's metabolisms are different, but it's up to them to control their weight: self-control. Also, if the 'genetic factors' are so powerful, why aren't the people in Europe as fat as Americans? Genetically, people in Europe have the same genes as white Americans, yet they aren't fat. Again, your argument doesn't hold.

[Invisible Fan]

Originally posted by MartianMan
That argument doesn't have much substance. Obesity is an effect of a cause: over-eating. Dyslexia is a disability which causes people to have difficulty to read and process words.

If the genetic factors that lead to obesity are so powerful, please point out the people in Africa and Asia that are obese. There aren't any because you need food to become obese. You don't magically become obese because of 'genetic factors'. Of course, people's metabolisms are different, but it's up to them to control them weight: self-control. Also, if the 'genetic factors' are so powerful, why aren't the people in Europe as fat as Americans? Genetically, people in Europe have the same genes as white Americans, yet they aren't fat. Again, your argument doesn't hold.

I don't know about Euros, but Asian youths are becoming fatter with the inception of McDonalds and global fast food.

Check out the remaining Native American tribes. They used to be one of the fittest cultures on the planet. Now their populations are racked with chronic diseases such as diabetes, hypertension, and high cholesterol because their diet now includes cheap and easily accessible highly fatty and processed foods.

[MartianMan]

Originally posted by Invisible Fan
I don't know about Euros, but Asian youths are becoming fatter with the inception of McDonalds and global fast food.

Check out the remaining Native American tribes. They used to be one of the fittest cultures on the planet. Now their populations are racked with chronic diseases such as diabetes, hypertension, and high cholesterol because their diet now includes cheap and easily accessible highly fatty and processed foods.

I agree. However, SamFisher was arguing that genetics was the cause, as if self-control had nothing to do with it.

Becoming obese is a choice, harder for some than for others. Everyone here has an option of buying their own groceries and making their own food. They all have the option of walking 20 minutes a day. Is it hard to do if you have work and children? Sure it is. But you can just eat less. It's all a choice.

[MR. MEOWGI]

Originally posted by MartianMan
I agree. However, SamFisher was arguing that genetics was the cause, as if self-control had nothing to do with it.

Becoming obese is a choice, harder for some than for others. Everyone here has an option of buying their own groceries and making their own food. They all have the option of walking 20 minutes a day. Is it hard to do if you have work and children? Sure it is. But you can just eat less. It's all a choice.

But you have to be very well educated about your choices and exactly what you should eat. I doubt if most people even know.

[Lil Pun]

Originally posted by MartianMan
I agree. However, SamFisher was arguing that genetics was the cause, as if self-control had nothing to do with it.

Becoming obese is a choice, harder for some than for others. Everyone here has an option of buying their own groceries and making their own food. They all have the option of walking 20 minutes a day. Is it hard to do if you have work and children? Sure it is. But you can just eat less. It's all a choice.

Not if your metabolic rate is screwed up due to genetics. Metabolism is the process which the body (cells) uses to break down substances and produce energy. The energy produced is used for bodily functions such as breathing, heartbeat, temperature control, and yes even in the metabolic process too. It also yields energy one would uses for activities such as running, walking, etc. So if one person yields more energy than another than voila they'll proabably burn more calories and fat easier than another too.

As Sam also said some people are just more prone to store or retain more fat than others, which may or may be related to their metabolism and it may not.

Bottom line, I don't think Sam was ruling out your "choice" theory he was just stating it isn't everybody's "choice" and I think it is foolish for you to say it is completely one's "choice" as well and other factors that are beyond one's control have nothing to do with it.

[wnes]

Is US the only country on earth (or one of the very few) that has drive-through window service in every fast food restaurant?

I always wonder why these folks can't get their lazy (fat) asses out of their cars to order junk food. They are doing a double-whammy to their well-beings - voluntarily shunning a moderate exercise routine while consuming unhealthy food.

On top of that, these folks are doing a double-whammy disservice to our nation - consider how much fuel is wasted everyday and the amount of harmful gases emitted from those vehicles waiting in line and/or slowly passing through the drive-through lanes.

I say Congress should enact a law either eliminating all drive-through services, or imposing hefty taxes on drive-through merchant activities.

[langal]

I don't doubt that certain people may be more predisposed to obesity on some genetic level. But how does that explain the rise in obesity rates? Are those with the unfortunate "obese gene" reproducing at higher rates than others?

As someone mentioned, the problem seems more endemic to the US. Is the genetic pool of the US more predisposed to obesity than that of Europe or Canada?

There may be a few isolated cases of screwed up metabolism, but I do not think the vast majority of obesity cases can be attributed to this.

[Lil Pun]

Why do you all keep bringing up Europe?

Scotland just reported a rapid rise in obesity rates, 1 out of every 5 children is now the number there. 1 out of every 5 15 year old is obese in Britain and the rate is twice as high for 6 year olds. The WHO announced in March that more than half the populations of Spain, Denmark, Italy, and Russia are over-weight as well as Australia, Mexico, and Brazil. They also reported rising obesity rates in Egypt, South Africa, Papua New Guinea and Guatemala, China, and South Korea.

The U.S. may lead the world in obesity rates but we certainly are not alone.

[wnes]

Originally posted by Lil Pun
The U.S. may lead the world in obesity rates but we certainly are not alone.

Can we say US is well ahead ...?

http://angrybear.blogspot.com/obese.gif

[SamFisher]

Originally posted by MartianMan
That argument doesn't have much substance. Obesity is an effect of a cause: over-eating. Dyslexia is a disability which causes people to have difficulty to read and process words.


You don't seem to get it - nobody CHOOSES to have the obesity gene or the dyslexia gene.

It's a pretty simple point - were you born not to be able to understand it, or did you just CHOOSE not to be able to? :confused:


If the genetic factors that lead to obesity are so powerful, please point out the people in Africa and Asia that are obese. There aren't any because you need food to become obese. You don't magically become obese because of 'genetic factors'. Of course, people's metabolisms are different, but it's up to them to control their weight: self-control. Also, if the 'genetic factors' are so powerful, why aren't the people in Europe as fat as Americans? Genetically, people in Europe have the same genes as white Americans, yet they aren't fat. Again, your argument doesn't hold.

There are plenty of obese africans and asians, and there are more so as they are exposed to calorie laden western foods. Likewise there are plenty of fat europeans who experience the same effect as processed foods become more prevalent . Is it your position that Europeans have stronger "choice" than Americans? Doubtful. (as the chart indicates, thanks wnes.)

[wouldabeen23]

Originally posted by MartianMan
So basically it's:

1. By choice.

2. By choice. I'm assuming you are talking about food you buy at restaurants and fast food joints. Not food that you make yourself.

3. By choice. Thyroid dysfunction is probably the effect of over-eating. Humans aren't used to eating so much food, and some people's body can't deal with it properly.

Maybe we judge this problem as a simple problem because it is a simple problem. The answer is the hard part...for some.

So, basically, you are being an insufferable ass?

I mean, did a fat kid beat you up in Jr. High or did Momma have a hunger for Hefty dudes and cheated on your old man?

Sorry, but either you are being down-right ignorant or maybe I'm being hyper-sensitive for going 6'4" 300 plus. I have tried EVERYTHING with varying degrees of success ultimately met with veraing degrees of failure. I'm now running three to four times a week, two miles and trying to eat MORE during the day--hope this helps. I guarantee that you eat more in a day than I do, if I LOOK at a potato I will get fatter...Don't give me the "choice" crap and boil it down to your simple little insulting package

I do agree that there is a culture of gluttony and bad food choices and America is going to have to make some tough adjustments or our medical system will collapse. 10-12 year old kids are developing diabetes as a result of obesity, that is scary. I applaud the CDC looking into trends and conditions and analyzing the habits and food content of this country. If it isn't a disease, it could certainly flair into an epidemic.

[Sishir Chang]

If I can mediate between Sam and Martian's point I think you're both right.

Genetics pre-disposes someone to getting fat so if you're around high calorie food you will get fat a lot faster and have a lot harder problem losing it than if you didn't have the right gene.

There are less fat Africans than Americans because while many of them have the pre-disposition gene they don't have access to the food. So it doesn't matter what your genes are if you're living in Darfur or Somalia you aren't going to get fat if there isn't any food around.

[SamFisher]

Originally posted by Sishir Chang
If I can mediate between Sam and Martian's point I think you're both right.

Genetics pre-disposes someone to getting fat so if you're around high calorie food you will get fat a lot faster and have a lot harder problem losing it than if you didn't have the right gene.

There are less fat Africans than Americans because while many of them have the pre-disposition gene they don't have access to the food. So it doesn't matter what your genes are if you're living in Darfur or Somalia you aren't going to get fat if there isn't any food around.

I jsut don't understand what the point the Jedi Master is trying to make about choice.

An endomorphic person genetically predisposed to retain fat can choose to excercise every day and eat right, yet still be ostensibly fatter than an ectomorphic person who chooses not to do so; hell,I'm willing to bet that Lindsey Lohan's ankles are still kind of fat in proportion to the rest of her even though she chose to starve herself and coke her way out of 35 pounds. - so how does the choice analysis help us other than a flawed way to imply superiority?

The African thing also has a lot to do witht he fact that the first African Americans were primarily West, (not East, like Somalia, etc) Africans who arrived here via slavery were those slaves that could survive the middle passage across the atlantic, - that is being chained up in the hold of a ship with little to no food, water, nourishment, severe diahrrea, dehydration, etc etc etc. Those individuals who did were genetically predisposed to better retain fat, salt, etc (which contributes to high rates of hypertension, etc in African americans).

[A-Train]

Morbid Obesity: ICD-9-CM code 278.01

Let's say that you're 5'9" 320 lbs, and you go to the ER complaining of shortness of breath and chest pain. The doctor will probably put that 278.01 code on your chart along with 786.05 for the SOB and 786.50 for the chest pain and it will get paid by most insurance companies.

Or, let's say that you need gastric bypass surgery, which is also covered by insurance, what ICD-9 code will be put on the insurance claim form? You guess it, 278.01...

Obesity is the leading cause of diabetes in the United States. Other complications caused by obesity are hypertension, heart disease, osteoarthritis, and gout.

Just because something is caused by extrinsic factors doesn't mean it's not a disease. Obesity IS a disease, just like the lung cancer caused by smoking is a disease, just like skin cancer caused by sitting in a tanning booth 3 hours a day is a disease, just like arteriosclerosis caused by eating fatty foods is a disease...

Obesity is more than a disease, it's an epidemic...

[langal]

I think some people here (me included) just find it difficult to accept the theory that obese people have little or no choice in the matter - that their obesity is preordained by their genetic code and they they are to be exculpated from any blame.

I'm sure that some people are biologically more vulnerable to the factors that cause weight gain - but their behavior has to play a major factor too. An endomorphic may eat the same stuff that another person eats and thus, weigh more. However - morbid obbesity is another matter.

Some people may be intrinsically more vulnerable to nicotine addiction - however, that fact would still not excuse their smoking.

[SamFisher]

Originally posted by langal


Some people may be intrinsically more vulnerable to nicotine addiction - however, that fact would still not excuse their smoking.

Therein lies the problem, in that you equate it with smoking, something that you need an excuse for, something "bad".

The ability to retain excess fat isn't bad in biological terms, in fact throughout most of human history, when just getting enough calories to live was a struggle, it was a highly, highly beneficial genetic trait. It has only been in the last 100 years or so when it has begun to be problematic as the enviroment has changed.

The funny thing about this thread is the obsession with choice, the point that I can gather is that people who are fat are mentally weaker than those who are not, because they are in part choosing to be fat.

I suppose that would be true, if everybody had the same genetic makeup and access to the same caloric package, but everybody doesn't, so it's a pretty useless thing to judge people on. Obviously this won't change anybody's mind, but I don't think there's much more to say about it than what I said.

[wouldabeen23]

Originally posted by SamFisher
Therein lies the problem, in that you equate it with smoking, something that you need an excuse for, something "bad".

The ability to retain excess fat isn't bad in biological terms, in fact throughout most of human history, when just getting enough calories to live was a struggle, it was a highly, highly beneficial genetic trait. It has only been in the last 100 years or so when it has begun to be problematic as the enviroment has changed.

The funny thing about this thread is the obsession with choice, the point that I can gather is that people who are fat are mentally weaker than those who are not, because they are in part choosing to be fat.

I suppose that would be true, if everybody had the same genetic makeup and access to the same caloric package, but everybody doesn't, so it's a pretty useless thing to judge people on. Obviously this won't change anybody's mind, but I don't think there's much more to say about it than what I said.

Thanks for being on the Fatties side Sam...we can use all the skinny help there is... :D

[MartianMan]

Originally posted by Lil Pun
Not if your metabolic rate is screwed up due to genetics. Metabolism is the process which the body (cells) uses to break down substances and produce energy. The energy produced is used for bodily functions such as breathing, heartbeat, temperature control, and yes even in the metabolic process too. It also yields energy one would uses for activities such as running, walking, etc. So if one person yields more energy than another than voila they'll proabably burn more calories and fat easier than another too.

As Sam also said some people are just more prone to store or retain more fat than others, which may or may be related to their metabolism and it may not.

Bottom line, I don't think Sam was ruling out your "choice" theory he was just stating it isn't everybody's "choice" and I think it is foolish for you to say it is completely one's "choice" as well and other factors that are beyond one's control have nothing to do with it.

I never said people aren't different. I admitted it was so. You need to read my posts.

That argument doesn't have much substance. Obesity is an effect of a cause: over-eating. Dyslexia is a disability which causes people to have difficulty to read and process words.

If the genetic factors that lead to obesity are so powerful, please point out the people in Africa and Asia that are obese. There aren't any because you need food to become obese. You don't magically become obese because of 'genetic factors'. Of course, people's metabolisms are different, but it's up to them to control their weight: self-control. Also, if the 'genetic factors' are so powerful, why aren't the people in Europe as fat as Americans? Genetically, people in Europe have the same genes as white Americans, yet they aren't fat. Again, your argument doesn't hold.

[MartianMan]

Originally posted by Lil Pun
Why do you all keep bringing up Europe?

Scotland just reported a rapid rise in obesity rates, 1 out of every 5 children is now the number there. 1 out of every 5 15 year old is obese in Britain and the rate is twice as high for 6 year olds. The WHO announced in March that more than half the populations of Spain, Denmark, Italy, and Russia are over-weight as well as Australia, Mexico, and Brazil. They also reported rising obesity rates in Egypt, South Africa, Papua New Guinea and Guatemala, China, and South Korea.

The U.S. may lead the world in obesity rates but we certainly are not alone.

We bring up Europe because the genetic makeup of a European is the same as a white man in America, yet white Americans (and other races) are significantly fatter. Why? Because of the choices we make. Such as eating fatty foods, not exercising, etc. make Americans fatter. I don't understand how you guys can argue with such easy to understand logic.

Europeans and Asians are starting down the road that some Americans are taking, and yes, they are getting fatter. This does nothing to promote your point.

[MartianMan]

Originally posted by SamFisher
You don't seem to get it - nobody CHOOSES to have the obesity gene or the dyslexia gene.

It's a pretty simple point - were you born not to be able to understand it, or did you just CHOOSE not to be able to? :confused:

Lol. I'll try to keep my tone down (even though people are attacking me) and explain it more clearly. Obesity is the EFFECT of over-eating. If you don't over-eat, you'll NEVER become obese, EVEN IF you had the 'so-called' "obesity gene". Just like some people are more susceptible to nicotine addiction, if you don't smoke, you won't develop lung cancer (at least not from smoking).

Dyslexia is a condition that'll you'll ALWAYS HAVE whether you do nothing or do everything. You are BORN WITH IT.

YOU AREN'T BORN WITH OBESITY.


Originally posted by SamFisher
There are plenty of obese africans and asians, and there are more so as they are exposed to calorie laden western foods. Likewise there are plenty of fat europeans who experience the same effect as processed foods become more prevalent . Is it your position that Europeans have stronger "choice" than Americans? Doubtful. (as the chart indicates, thanks wnes.)

Yes. Europeans choose (or by culture) to walk more and eat better foods. Partly because the prevalence of fast food restaurants is not as severe as America and partly cultural. Circumstantial you can say.

[MartianMan]

Originally posted by wouldabeen23
So, basically, you are being an insufferable ass?

I mean, did a fat kid beat you up in Jr. High or did Momma have a hunger for Hefty dudes and cheated on your old man?

Sorry, but either you are being down-right ignorant or maybe I'm being hyper-sensitive for going 6'4" 300 plus. I have tried EVERYTHING with varying degrees of success ultimately met with veraing degrees of failure. I'm now running three to four times a week, two miles and trying to eat MORE during the day--hope this helps. I guarantee that you eat more in a day than I do, if I LOOK at a potato I will get fatter...Don't give me the "choice" crap and boil it down to your simple little insulting package

I do agree that there is a culture of gluttony and bad food choices and America is going to have to make some tough adjustments or our medical system will collapse. 10-12 year old kids are developing diabetes as a result of obesity, that is scary. I applaud the CDC looking into trends and conditions and analyzing the habits and food content of this country. If it isn't a disease, it could certainly flair into an epidemic.

I'm guess I hit a nerve. :eek:

It seems like you're mad at me just because you think that by me saying "it's a choice" AND you being overweight, you feel that I'm calling you weak-minded or unable to conquer your own body. Am I right?

I never said such a thing. I understand becoming obese is like digging a hole. By the time you realize you are in too deep, you can't get out EVEN if you were mentally determined or mentally strong. Especially because obesity throws people's body out of whack, your body may 're-program' itself into storing more and more fat even though you don't need it.

But you can't deny that you chose to dig that hole. I don't know why you are attacking ME.

[MartianMan]

Originally posted by SamFisher
Therein lies the problem, in that you equate it with smoking, something that you need an excuse for, something "bad".

The ability to retain excess fat isn't bad in biological terms, in fact throughout most of human history, when just getting enough calories to live was a struggle, it was a highly, highly beneficial genetic trait. It has only been in the last 100 years or so when it has begun to be problematic as the enviroment has changed.

The funny thing about this thread is the obsession with choice, the point that I can gather is that people who are fat are mentally weaker than those who are not, because they are in part choosing to be fat.

I suppose that would be true, if everybody had the same genetic makeup and access to the same caloric package, but everybody doesn't, so it's a pretty useless thing to judge people on. Obviously this won't change anybody's mind, but I don't think there's much more to say about it than what I said.

I never said having fat is bad. But being OBESE is bad. Obesity is not natural. With obesity come hypertension, increase risk of stroke, etc. Rarely, in the 2 million years (or 6000 if you're Christian) that humans have roamed the Earth, have humans been obese. It's a new and unnatural phenomenon. I never said being skinny is the way to go. I'm saying BEING HEALTHY is the way to go. If you have a BMI of 27, but you run 5 miles everyday with a medium body fat %, that's GREAT.

I never said anything about being mentally weak. You guys are inferring it all by yourselves.

[Refman]

Originally posted by MartianMan
So basically it's:

1. By choice.

2. By choice. I'm assuming you are talking about food you buy at restaurants and fast food joints. Not food that you make yourself.

3. By choice. Thyroid dysfunction is probably the effect of over-eating. Humans aren't used to eating so much food, and some people's body can't deal with it properly.

Maybe we judge this problem as a simple problem because it is a simple problem. The answer is the hard part...for some.
This is now officially the most ignorant thing I have ever read. No

1. No "genius," it isn't by choice. Most people have these things called jobs. They are quite demanding on your time and for many people, consume them entirely. For many executives, the "choice" is between working out at 6:00 or being at the office in an attempt to keep their high pressure jobs so they can take care of their families. An economist you are not.

2. Actually, food you buy at the grocery store is loaded with filler and pesticides. An agronomist you are not.

3. This was a joke, right? When did you start writing for the New England Journal of Medicine? Glad to know you figured out in two minutes at your computer what the entire medical community is puzzled over. See you at the Nobel Prize awards in Sweden. A doctor you are not.

Does anybody have an INTELLIGENT post to reply to my assertions?

[Refman]

Originally posted by MartianMan
Lol. I'll try to keep my tone down (even though people are attacking me) and explain it more clearly. Obesity is the EFFECT of over-eating. If you don't over-eat, you'll NEVER become obese, EVEN IF you had the 'so-called' "obesity gene". Just like some people are more susceptible to nicotine addiction, if you don't smoke, you won't develop lung cancer (at least not from smoking).

Dyslexia is a condition that'll you'll ALWAYS HAVE whether you do nothing or do everything. You are BORN WITH IT.

YOU AREN'T BORN WITH OBESITY.




Yes. Europeans choose (or by culture) to walk more and eat better foods. Partly because the prevalence of fast food restaurants is not as severe as America and partly cultural. Circumstantial you can say.
You know what...you really don't get it.

You are being attacked in this thread...because you deserve it.
Let me give you an example. When I was in college, I knew a very pretty, very shapely girl. She was NOT fat. She developed an ovarian cyst. She had to have the ovary removed. Her hormonal levels were thrown so far out of whack that it eventually caused her thyroid to be affected. She gained weight like you wouldn't believe. It is something she has struggled with her entire life. This was not a CHOICE.

A lot of her problem is that now she has to deal with assclowns looking at her and assuming she's just lazy and eats too much.

Does that sound like anybody in this thread?

[MartianMan]

Originally posted by Refman
This is now officially the most ignorant thing I have ever read. No

1. No "genius," it isn't by choice. Most people have these things called jobs. They are quite demanding on your time and for many people, consume them entirely. For many executives, the "choice" is between working out at 6:00 or being at the office in an attempt to keep their high pressure jobs so they can take care of their families. An economist you are not.

2. Actually, food you buy at the grocery store is loaded with filler and pesticides. An agronomist you are not.

3. This was a joke, right? When did you start writing for the New England Journal of Medicine? Glad to know you figured out in two minutes at your computer what the entire medical community is puzzled over. See you at the Nobel Prize awards in Sweden. A doctor you are not.

Does anybody have an INTELLIGENT post to reply to my assertions?

You know what. You don't understand my point. And making snide remarks just shows how ignorant you are.

1. It's their choice to have an executive job. In case you didn't know, people can apply for different jobs. It's a choice. Some people choose to have a high-paying job and sacrifice time with their family. Other people sacrifice high-pay to spend more time with their family. It's all a choice of your priorities. If your job is taking so much time that you can't work out, that's YOUR choice. You can quit.

2. Now you are being idiotic. So when I eat my lettuce and tomatoes, it's just as bad as eating fast foods? Are you saying there are NO nutritious foods available? You are being an idiot.

3. Insulting me on this point doesn't prove anything. Instead, it shows your idiocy.

[MartianMan]

Originally posted by Refman
You know what...you really don't get it.

You are being attacked in this thread...because you deserve it.
Let me give you an example. When I was in college, I knew a very pretty, very shapely girl. She was NOT fat. She developed an ovarian cyst. She had to have the ovary removed. Her hormonal levels were thrown so far out of whack that it eventually caused her thyroid to be affected. She gained weight like you wouldn't believe. It is something she has struggled with her entire life. This was not a CHOICE.

A lot of her problem is that now she has to deal with assclowns looking at her and assuming she's just lazy and eats too much.

Does that sound like anybody in this thread?

I deserve it? Give me a concrete example. When did I attack obese people? Maybe I made claims that you feel are wrong. But then, it is your right to ARGUE your point. Instead, you ATTACK me.

So are you saying everyone that is fat has a hormonal imbalance? You are not proving anything.

When did I look down on anyone? I'm arguing that it's a choice. If I said, "FAT PEOPLE ARE LAZY UGLY B*TCHES AND DESERVE TO DIE!!!". Then you would have a case. But I didn't. Instead, you are the only assclown on this thread.

[Lil Pun]

Originally posted by MartianMan
We bring up Europe because the genetic makeup of a European is the same as a white man in America, yet white Americans (and other races) are significantly fatter. Why? Because of the choices we make. Such as eating fatty foods, not exercising, etc. make Americans fatter. I don't understand how you guys can argue with such easy to understand logic.

Europeans and Asians are starting down the road that some Americans are taking, and yes, they are getting fatter. This does nothing to promote your point.

But you're counting continents. There are over 800,000,000 people in the continent of Europe but only about 275,000,000 in the U.S. On the graph provided by wnes it looks as if you added the European countries together, not even counting the omitted ones, the obesity rates would be about the same, if not worse.

My only point is that it can be both by genetics and choice but not just by choice.

BTW, you asked when you attacked obese people? Please. You basically called all people who are obese lazy who chose to become the way they are and could've helped it if they wanted to but Refman gave you one of the many examples where it is NOT a choice.

[Mr. Clutch]

Why is genetics coming into this? It only explains a fraction of the obese people. Yes, there are some people who are predisposed to becoming fat, and they really can't help it. But these people probably comprise a small percentage of the population, much like a small percentage of people have mental or physical disorders.

I think people have to exercise self control and exercise. But also, we can make the "environment" better for people. I would have no problem with schools banning fast food and coke machines, for example. Just keep the federal government out of it, leave that kind of thing to Europe and Califronia.

I don't think its a uniquely American problem either. Look at how most countries are trending up, I also read an article about the problem in Mexico.

[wouldabeen23]

Originally posted by MartianMan
I'm guess I hit a nerve. :eek:

It seems like you're mad at me just because you think that by me saying "it's a choice" AND you being overweight, you feel that I'm calling you weak-minded or unable to conquer your own body. Am I right?

I never said such a thing. I understand becoming obese is like digging a hole. By the time you realize you are in too deep, you can't get out EVEN if you were mentally determined or mentally strong. Especially because obesity throws people's body out of whack, your body may 're-program' itself into storing more and more fat even though you don't need it.

But you can't deny that you chose to dig that hole. I don't know why you are attacking ME.

Funny you should mention digging holes....cuz you have a doozy of a hole to get out of now.

I can deny that I "dug that hole" because I don't sit around all day eating twinkies and government cheese, which is obviously what you think anyone that is overweight or "obese" does.

I have been the "big kid" since I was born: brothers and sisters--thin, mother--thin, Dad--big. Naturally, I was a better than average offensive lineman from pee-wee through high-school with my size.

I can eat the same amount of food as you and I will be the one that puts on the weight, I have NEVER had a speedy metabolism and I'm paying for it now. Don't get me wrong, a slow metabolism is great when you are a full time football player, I can build bulk muscle mass fairly easy. I have fought my weight all my life, and it's not from being lazy and choosing to be a fat-azz

So yes, you did hit a nerve, a$$hole