So, What can we get for Bagwell?

[adeelsiddiqui]

Seriously, washed up.

We can play lamb at 1B or even berkman or Lane. Once berkman comes back, we should be pretty solid, and im sure we can get a prospect or two for baggs.

So should we pull the trigger, or just let him suck his contract out here?

[kaleidosky]

Originally posted by adeelsiddiqui
Seriously, washed up.

We can play lamb at 1B or even berkman or Lane. Once berkman comes back, we should be pretty solid, and im sure we can get a prospect or two for baggs.

So should we pull the trigger, or just let him suck his contract out here?


I would never suggest trading him (unless we could get something really serious back for him...then I guess even I would consider it)


But to consider the question.. I doubt we can get any real prospects out of a deal for a broken down Bagwell at this point. I'd imagine we'd get a Redding or Duckworth-type prospect. A guy that was once projected to be good but hasn't panned out yet (and probably won't)

Add to the equation what Bagwell means to the franchise, the attitude he brings to the clubhouse, and what he's done over the years.. I don't think we make a deal for so little.


(But like I said, I wouldn't consider it)

[rockets-#1]

C'mon now, do you really think the 'Stros would trade Bagwell after all he's done for the organization? And, do you really think another team is gonna take him on at this point in his career when you you weigh his production against his salary? Nu uh. The only reason the Astros would trade him is 'cause they suck (check), they won't have a legit shot at making the playoffs come the deadline (rapidly approaching), and they wanna give him a shot to win a World Series with a contender.

[drapg]

Isn't he getting paid something along the lines of $17 million?

What can we get?

Absolutely nothing.

[BSW]

We would have to pay another team to take him. I expect for him to start hitting better when Berkman returns to the lineup as pitchers will not be able to pitch around him with such ease.

[bottlerocket]

a dozen baseballs??

[SamCassell]

The Stros would have to agree to pick up most of his contract in a trade, a la the Sosa deal. And what's the point of trading him if we're going to still pay his salary. We've got Bags for this season and next, after which he'll presumably retire with that arthritic shoulder.

[msn]

Originally posted by adeelsiddiqui
Seriously, washed up.

We can play lamb at 1B or even berkman or Lane. Once berkman comes back, we should be pretty solid, and im sure we can get a prospect or two for baggs.

So should we pull the trigger, or just let him suck his contract out here?
When he ends the season with 90 RBI's again, can I rub this all in your face.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by msn
When he ends the season with 90 RBI's again, can I rub this all in your face.

It doesn't matter. Most Astros fans have the loyalty of a two-dollar hooker.

[BSW]

Originally posted by msn
When he ends the season with 90 RBI's again, can I rub this all in your face.

I am just glad he is his slump now and not later in the season. He goes through this at some point every freakin year and the fans start screaming for him to pack his stuff and leave. He always puts up good power numbers and RBI's. My only problem with Bagwell is that he can't throw.

I like how Garner has been replacing Bagwell in close games when a throw might be necessary.

[DaDakota]

Loyalty?

LOL....they get paid to play, and when they can't help us win anymore, they should retire, or move on.....

Bizness is Bizness.

The players today hang on for the big bucks FAR too long...Bags is a prime example.

Too bad Baseball doesn't have NFL like contracts.

DD

[Furious Jam]

Originally posted by msn
When he ends the season with 90 RBI's again, can I rub this all in your face.

I'll take that bet!

And anyway, you expect more than 90 RBIs for $17 million this year. But no way he reaches 90 anyway.

[Furious Jam]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
It doesn't matter. Most Astros fans have the loyalty of a two-dollar hooker.

Hey, fans are more loyal than players. When players leave or get ridiculous contracts to stay, it's all about business. But when those same players don't deliver, fans aren't entitled to get upset?

[BSW]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
It doesn't matter. Most Astros fans have the loyalty of a two-dollar hooker.

So true....once Bagwell is done I want to see Berkman at first. I think that will be good for his legs.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Furious Jam
Hey, fans are more loyal than players. When players leave or get ridiculous contracts to stay, it's all about business. But when those same players don't deliver, fans aren't entitled to get upset?

have you ever taken a paycut to root for the Astros?? :)

[msn]

Originally posted by Furious Jam
you expect more than 90 RBIs for $17 million this year.
While this sounds right in principle, the fact is this is a backloaded contract. He was being paid far under market value when he was piling up Hall of Fame numbers and credentials, and now it's time to pay the piper, as it were. The backloading of the contract was the idea of Hunsicker and McLane, not Bagwell. But, feel free to make him the bad guy if you wish.

I'll take that bet! ...no way he reaches 90 anyway.
You're on. :)

[Furious Jam]

And for my third post in a row...

Bagwell has no trade value, unless you can name a team that wants a 1st basemen who can't throw and who isn't hitting for average or power... at $17 million this year alone.

Only starry-eyed fan boys could see any value in Bagwell. They're living in the past.

[BSW]

Originally posted by Furious Jam
I'll take that bet!

And anyway, you expect more than 90 RBIs for $17 million this year. But no way he reaches 90 anyway.

Let's say you walk into work and you are offered a guaranteed contract. The first couple of years you are paid an amount under the industry average....but in three years you will be paid way more than the average.....are you saying you would not take it?

[The Real Shady]

We could probably trade Bagwell, Burke, and Astocio for nothing. The other team would need compensation for taking on Bagwell's contract so Burke and Astocio would probably do it.

That being said we are just going to have to bite the bullet and keep him. If he has a horrible year and bats like .240 with 18 HR's there is a chance he would accept a buyout and reitre at the end of the year.

[Xenon]

It's kind of sad actually. I really think he's hurting his chances at the hall by playing well past his time. The career batting average continues to slide...

[meh]

This "loyalty" business doesn't exist in sports, except in the form of $$$. For that reason, the Astros are VERY loyal to Bagwell, for they gave him that ridiculous 6yr/$85 mil contracts that has been biting them in the ass ever since.

As for Bagwell's value on the open market, look at what the Cubs got for Sammy: eat most of his contract and worthless prospects. Bagwell is a worse hitter than Sammy right now, and has an extra year on the contract. Meaning the Astros could trade him by eating two years worth of Bagwell's contract for worthless prospects.

[rocketfan83]

Nothing, to much money nobody will take him unless he goes on a tear and even than unlikely

this is off topic I noticed that Bagwell is listed as 180 this season? Whats up with that? He had to be way over 180 not to long ago.
Biggio is listed as 185.

Something doesn't seem right. I'm not sure what Bag's weight was back in his day but it had to be above 200. And I doubt Biggio out ever out weighed bagwell.

[VesceySux]

Jeff...
What is he good for?
Absolutely nothing!
Say it again!
Jeff...
What is he good for?
Absolutely nothing!

(Go Astros.)

[isoman2kx]

a lockbox.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by meh
This "loyalty" business doesn't exist in sports, except in the form of $$$. For that reason, the Astros are VERY loyal to Bagwell, for they gave him that ridiculous 6yr/$85 mil contracts that has been biting them in the ass ever since.

.

not ENTIRELY true. there are examples of guys taking less money to stick with a franchise. there are examples of franchises paying a guy more long term because he already did great things for them.

[SamCassell]

It doesn't follow that players who took less money did so out of loyalty. Sure, some did. Others take less for any number of factors, including lifestyle, familiarity, chance to win, friendships, hometown, weather (sunny vs. snow), family, opportunity, endorsements, market size (big vs. small), etc. And franchises overpaying for established vets (like the Stros with Bags) could do so because of the ability to market the franchise, perceived fan reaction to that player leaving, ability of that player to personally sell tickets (Clemens), or simply bad business decisions or misreading a fluctuating player market. Who knew that the skyrocketing salaries for players were going to drop right after Bags signed?

I think words like loyalty get thrown around too much.

[pgabriel]

There is no way that Bagwell finishes strong like he historically does. He is hurting way to much and it isn't going to get any better. The guy was getting cortisone shots in Spring Training. That's not good.


He is untradable, no one will take him, Drayton won't do it, and there is no way he leaves $17MM on the table. So just forget it.

[BSW]

I believe he has had gotten the shots the last two years.

[pgabriel]

Originally posted by BSW
I believe he has had gotten the shots the last two years.

I don't think he was getting them in Spring Training.

[hardwood]

It's tough to see these guys go out on a slow burn.Bags should retire after this season.His shoulders are shot,he can't even work out.That big swing has too many holes when he is not right.This is the classic case of not one,but two guys being with the same organization a long time,beyond endangered species status,almost extinct....and that tears me both ways.More so with Biggio,because,while I believe Bags should retire an Astro now, I believe we should have traded Bidge to the American League 2 years ago.( to be a DH)
I fancy myself a baseball purist,and I miss the good ole days when you looked at a baseball card and saw the players stats,with the same team for many years.But mad money has brought forth the players union(which has insane concessions to begin with),free agency,maniacal agents,steroid juicers,and bottom line owners.(who are paying the salaries,getting stadiums without increasing payroll,but won't open the books)Guys change teams like one does cars.Did I mention the Commisioner/owner?Sorry for the off topic rant,but it hurts me to see money and greed erode at our national pastime.
....Craig,and Jeff,you've been great...we've had fun and I'll always root or ya'll,but this franchise MUST be operated in accordance with the present environment,with the idea of winning being at the core.You don't get rid of HUN.You take the shackles off!You move Craig,and let Jeff retire gracefully.Man,Drayton just wants to squeeze every bit of PR,goodwill,and tickets sales out that he can,while increasing the price of the franchise before possibly selling.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by SamCassell
It doesn't follow that players who took less money did so out of loyalty. Sure, some did. Others take less for any number of factors, including lifestyle, familiarity, chance to win, friendships, hometown, weather (sunny vs. snow), family, opportunity, endorsements, market size (big vs. small), etc. And franchises overpaying for established vets (like the Stros with Bags) could do so because of the ability to market the franchise, perceived fan reaction to that player leaving, ability of that player to personally sell tickets (Clemens), or simply bad business decisions or misreading a fluctuating player market. Who knew that the skyrocketing salaries for players were going to drop right after Bags signed?

I think words like loyalty get thrown around too much.

Sam, call it whatever. A guy takes less money to play for a team he enjoys playing for with teammates he likes playing with in a city he enjoys playing/living in. Call it duck butter if you want. I'll call it loyalty. When Biggio said no to St. Louis and Colorado's bigger offers to stay here...arguably saving the franchise from N. Virginia...I'd call that loyalty.

[BSW]

Originally posted by pgabriel
I don't think he was getting them in Spring Training.
Yeah, he did have them in Spring Training the last two years....


Last year -
156 Games - .266 27 HR's 89 RBI's

Article states that he had his sceond shot on June 15th....which means he had his first at Spring Training.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/2629078

Had his second one on June 15th. Go back six weeks from there and that would be Spring Training.

2003
160 Games - .278 39 HR's 100 RBI's

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/sports/bk/bkn/1821476

[BSW]

Every year it is the same thing....and it is not just Bagwell...it is Biggio too.

Bagwell and Biggio are washed up.

They should retire.

They suck.

Why do we not trade Bagwell?

and for Biggio now...he should not try for 3,000.


Then at the end of the season Bagwell hits 20+ HR's and somewhere around 100 RBI's.

Biggio scores 100+ runs, hits 40+ doubles, and 15+HR's. (last year 24)

Yes, some of their numbers have dropped...especially Bagwell, but he still produces. I hate the fact, as well I am sure every Astros fan does too, that he cannot throw but I have to give the guy props for going out there and giving his all even though he is in so much pain.

If Bagwell was traded or Biggio was let go to seek another team to play for I am sure some of you would do a complete 180 and start bashing McLane.
yeah, that's right...I said it!
:eek:

[SamCassell]

Originally posted by MadMax
Call it duck butter if you want. I'll call it loyalty.
What is this duck butter stuff? How do you milk the duck, to get butter? Does it taste better than the standard variety? Is this a veiled reference to how soft Brandon Duckworth is? :)

[MadMax]

Originally posted by SamCassell
What is this duck butter stuff? How do you milk the duck, to get butter? Does it taste better than the standard variety? Is this a veiled reference to how soft Brandon Duckworth is? :)

i have no clue where that came from...was typing, and that just flew off my fingertips. have no idea. :)

[Furious Jam]

Originally posted by msn
You're on. :)

Let's bet $20 that Jeff doesn't make it to 90 RBIs this year.

But in making that bet, I want to make it clear that I would never root against any Astro and that I would be happy to lose $20 if it meant Jeff collected around 100 RBIs this season. But objectively, I don't think there's anyway he gets there, so I'm willing to profit off of that.

[adeelsiddiqui]

Originally posted by msn
When he ends the season with 90 RBI's again, can I rub this all in your face.

OOooooHHHH 90 RBI's

:rolleyes:

im sure mike lamb can do that too.

[Furious Jam]

Jeff will never be bought out and retire early. I just hope he has enough sense to quit when his contract is up, instead of going for 500 homeruns (to lockup the Hall of Fame, because the juiced-ball era stats he has now are no lock).

But if does ask for another contract, even at the MLB minimum, I hope the team would have enough sense to turn him down. He is a below average 1st baseman at this point, both offensively and defensively - and he'll be even worse when the 2007 season starts.

[Furious Jam]

Originally posted by adeelsiddiqui
OOooooHHHH 90 RBI's

:rolleyes:

im sure mike lamb can do that too.

Yeah, that's really not that impressive for someone batting 3rd. But I still bet he won't get there because you'll probably see Garner "resting" him more and more. The shoulder might force him to the IL for a few games too.

Remember, Jeff is not a big guy for a 1st baseman - he always relied on bat speed, which is one of the first things to go. I think you'll be surprised by how quickly his power numbers will slide.

[bigboymumu]

The reason we keep Bagwell is simple. We need to pass the current culture to the next generation Astros. It is no longer about the numbers. Yes, the guy should take more days off, yes, the guy should be dropped in the order, but, HECK NO, the guy is not overpaid. He deserves everything he gets.

Just don't re-sign him again. ;)

[adeelsiddiqui]

Truly if this was hakeem, it woulda been different, i mean the man had brought us 2 championships and earned his retirement fund towards the end.

But Bagwell, come on now, losing to the cards in the playoffs is the best youve ever done...

[SamFisher]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
The reason we keep Bagwell is simple. We need to pass the current culture to the next generation Astros.



I think baseball might be cracking down on that kind of culture...

[msn]

Originally posted by adeelsiddiqui
Truly if this was hakeem, it woulda been different, i mean the man had brought us 2 championships and earned his retirement fund towards the end.

But Bagwell, come on now, losing to the cards in the playoffs is the best youve ever done...
Yeah, forget beating the Braves the series before. Forget 6 consecutive years of 100 RBI, 30 HR, etc. Forget, before the shoulder fell apart, the best--yes, the BEST--all-around 1B (defense, baserunning, hitting) in all of the major leagues.

That's the thing with short-sighted comments--they're so short-sighted.

[msn]

Originally posted by Furious Jam
Let's bet $20 that Jeff doesn't make it to 90 RBIs this year.

But in making that bet, I want to make it clear that I would never root against any Astro and that I would be happy to lose $20 if it meant Jeff collected around 100 RBIs this season. But objectively, I don't think there's anyway he gets there, so I'm willing to profit off of that.
I'll do a tipjar bet. I thought we were talking bragging rights; I'm not the betting type.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by msn
Yeah, forget beating the Braves the series before. Forget 6 consecutive years of 100 RBI, 30 HR, etc. Forget, before the shoulder fell apart, the best--yes, the BEST--all-around 1B (defense, baserunning, hitting) in all of the major leagues.

That's the thing with short-sighted comments--they're so short-sighted.

arguably the best first baseman in NL history.

[Random.]

We could trade him to an American team in need of a good DH.

Like the Angels, they could use a power DH. And it would give Bagwell a better chance to win a world series than the Astros have.

Win/Win!

[adeelsiddiqui]

Originally posted by msn
Yeah, forget beating the Braves the series before. Forget 6 consecutive years of 100 RBI, 30 HR, etc. Forget, before the shoulder fell apart, the best--yes, the BEST--all-around 1B (defense, baserunning, hitting) in all of the major leagues.

That's the thing with short-sighted comments--they're so short-sighted.

thats the thing about sports, people forget not so great moments, and cherish the great ones. I love bagwell, hes been my favourtie player for quite the while, but he hasnt gotten us anything.

And you seem to be all for stuff that aint short, how much does bagwell help us out in the LONG run?

[DaDakota]

Originally posted by msn
Yeah, forget beating the Braves the series before. Forget 6 consecutive years of 100 RBI, 30 HR, etc. Forget, before the shoulder fell apart, the best--yes, the BEST--all-around 1B (defense, baserunning, hitting) in all of the major leagues.

If he could still do any of that, this would not be a topic, he got paid handsomely for all of that production, and is being paid WAY to much because of it.

He should be put out to pasture or sent to the glue factory.

DD

[BSW]

msn...I just don't think they get it.

It's not worth trying to explain.

[Furious Jam]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
The reason we keep Bagwell is simple. We need to pass the current culture to the next generation Astros. It is no longer about the numbers.

Man, I don't buy that at all. Didn't Jeff and Craig chase off Terry Collins and Larry Dierker? They supposedly don't tolerate knuckleheads, but they played with Carl Everet, Jeff Kent, Jose Lima, Derek Bell, Chuckie Carr, etc. I think they're definitely top dogs in that clubhouse and you're in trouble if you pi$$ them off, but I don't think they're leaders per se. To me, they're like Patrick Ewing - you know they're working hard, but you never see any fire.

[Furious Jam]

Originally posted by SamFisher
I think baseball might be cracking down on that kind of culture...

Now that's funny... But is there a ring of truth to it? Jeff is a product of that era and did have ridiculous arms. I don't want to start a whole new topic in this thread, but I think it's curious that no one has ever raised the possibility. Though I know our local sports writers would never dare mention it without some kind of evidence in front of them.

[msn]

Originally posted by adeelsiddiqui
thats the thing about sports, people forget not so great moments, and cherish the great ones.
That's more a life thing than a sports thing. Some people all you know is what they're against, and some people all you know is what they're for. I choose to celebrate the good times rather than bitch and moan about the bad times--especially when the good *far* outweights the bad, but that's just me.

[Furious Jam]

Originally posted by msn
I'll do a tipjar bet. I thought we were talking bragging rights; I'm not the betting type.

That's fair. Whoever loses has to start a thread that will (A) explain that he was wrong and (B) announce that he's putting money in the tipjar in the other's name. The amount of money isn't important.

[pgabriel]

Originally posted by BSW
Yeah, he did have them in Spring Training the last two years....



Article states that he had his sceond shot on June 15th....which means he had his first at Spring Training.




And he already had two in this Spring Training before the season got started.

[BSW]

Originally posted by pgabriel
And he already had two in this Spring Training before the season got started.

he has them every six weeks.....so what?

The guy plays hard....does not complain.

[Random.]

Originally posted by BSW
The guy plays hard....does not complain.

18 million reasons not to complain.

[SamFisher]

Originally posted by Furious Jam
Now that's funny... But is there a ring of truth to it? Jeff is a product of that era and did have ridiculous arms. I don't want to start a whole new topic in this thread, but I think it's curious that no one has ever raised the possibility. Though I know our local sports writers would never dare mention it without some kind of evidence in front of them.

There is a lot of circumstantial evidence pointing against him - the skinny kid who got huge and was lifting huge amounts of weights at or around the era of the steroid boom in baseball, then the weight loss, decline & chronic injuries right at or around the time they began to scrutinize juicers, the confirmed steroid using teammate in Camniti, who echoed Canseco's shocking 'revelation" five years before he did it, and said that everybody else and their brother was doing it but didn't name names, etc. Obviously not enough to put him in jail - but you'd have to be blind to ignore it.

As an astros fan you can give him the benefit of the doubt, but looking at it objectively - I harbored the same suspicions about McGwire, Bonds, Giambi, etc based on similar evidence, and those are all confirmed at this point.

[BSW]

Mailbag: Is Bagwell worth the money?
04/28/2005 1:33 PM ET
By Alyson Footer / MLB.com

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/content/printer_friendly/hou/y2005/m04/d28/c1031680.jsp

Don't get me wrong, Jeff Bagwell is a great player, but I don't think he's worth 18 million dollars. I don't think anyone is, not a Beltran, not a Johnson, no one. Heck, Craig Biggio only makes a sixth of what Bagwell makes. Now I know why the Astros couldn't re-sign Kent and Beltran. All they offered Kent was one million. I think Kent has more left in him than Bagwell too. Why didn't Bagwell ask for a slightly lower salary so that maybe they could have gotten those guys back. I mean Bags is important, but he has health issues and he gets paid 36 more times the amount of Lidge. There's something wrong here. -- Mike J.

First things first: Biggio has made plenty of money over his Astros career. He's playing for a lot less now than he used to, but he had a seven-year stretch where he didn't make less than $6 million. And the day will come where Lidge will be making 36 times what some of his younger teammates are making. Lidge is not yet arbitration eligible, which means in his first three years in the big leagues, he'll make a little more than the league minimum. That's the way the system works.
Bagwell signed a contract following the 2000 season, and he is honoring that contract. There is no provision in big league contracts where a player can be docked pay if he doesn't put up certain numbers. If Bagwell hits .200 in April, he's not going to call up Drayton McLane and offer a refund. That would be ridiculous.

When the Astros have had chances to obtain big free agents in the past, Jeff has been willing to restructure his contract so the team would have room for that added salary. The Astros offered $105 million for Beltran, and I didn't hear one word about not being able to offer him more because of Bagwell's contract. The club didn't seem to have a problem giving $18 million to Roger Clemens and $85 million to Lance Berkman -- who, by the way, is one of the reasons the Astros have been shut out more times this month than they were all last year.

Yes, Bagwell takes up a lot of that payroll, and his production so far this season is far below what's expected of him. But I get tired of hearing Bagwell get dumped on for all of the Astros problems. This team has more issues than one high salaried player. It takes an entire lineup to score runs, and for the most part, no one is doing his job.

[BSW]

I think she Alyson does a good job of explaining things.

[pgabriel]

Originally posted by BSW
he has them every six weeks.....so what?

The guy plays hard....does not complain.

My point was his condition is getting progressively worse each season and so are his numbers and he won't finish as strong as he historically does.

And as someone else pointed out, he ain't volunteering so what does he have to complain about.

[Furious Jam]

Originally posted by BSW
Mailbag: Is Bagwell worth the money?
04/28/2005 1:33 PM ET
By Alyson Footer / MLB.com

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/content/printer_friendly/hou/y2005/m04/d28/c1031680.jsp

Don't get me wrong, Jeff Bagwell is a great player, but I don't think he's worth 18 million dollars. I don't think anyone is, not a Beltran, not a Johnson, no one. Heck, Craig Biggio only makes a sixth of what Bagwell makes. Now I know why the Astros couldn't re-sign Kent and Beltran. All they offered Kent was one million. I think Kent has more left in him than Bagwell too. Why didn't Bagwell ask for a slightly lower salary so that maybe they could have gotten those guys back. I mean Bags is important, but he has health issues and he gets paid 36 more times the amount of Lidge. There's something wrong here. -- Mike J.

First things first: Biggio has made plenty of money over his Astros career. He's playing for a lot less now than he used to, but he had a seven-year stretch where he didn't make less than $6 million. And the day will come where Lidge will be making 36 times what some of his younger teammates are making. Lidge is not yet arbitration eligible, which means in his first three years in the big leagues, he'll make a little more than the league minimum. That's the way the system works.
Bagwell signed a contract following the 2000 season, and he is honoring that contract. There is no provision in big league contracts where a player can be docked pay if he doesn't put up certain numbers. If Bagwell hits .200 in April, he's not going to call up Drayton McLane and offer a refund. That would be ridiculous.

When the Astros have had chances to obtain big free agents in the past, Jeff has been willing to restructure his contract so the team would have room for that added salary. The Astros offered $105 million for Beltran, and I didn't hear one word about not being able to offer him more because of Bagwell's contract. The club didn't seem to have a problem giving $18 million to Roger Clemens and $85 million to Lance Berkman -- who, by the way, is one of the reasons the Astros have been shut out more times this month than they were all last year.

Yes, Bagwell takes up a lot of that payroll, and his production so far this season is far below what's expected of him. But I get tired of hearing Bagwell get dumped on for all of the Astros problems. This team has more issues than one high salaried player. It takes an entire lineup to score runs, and for the most part, no one is doing his job.

This is great. :rolleyes:
Like anything from MLB.com would say anything negative about a player.

Putting the money aside, your team probably isn't a contender if Jeff Bagwell is your 1st baseman and 3rd hitter. Last year, he was sandwiched inbetween stars like Beltran, Berkman, and Kent, but this year he's been exposed as a player in steep decline, not the bedrock of the team.

If Jeff was DHing in the AL and was batting 6th, I wouldn't have that big of a problem with the money - it's a bad deal, let's move on. But right now, Jeff is collecting that massive paycheck and hurting the team - those two things should never go together. If you're playing in constant pain and not producing, the right thing to do would be to workout a buyout and retire. Isn't that what Hakeem did?

[BSW]

Well, Bagwell just delivered his 449th HR.

:)

[msn]

Originally posted by Furious Jam
If you're playing in constant pain and not producing, the right thing to do would be to workout a buyout and retire. Isn't that what Hakeem did?
No. If I remember correctly, Hakeem bitched about not being offered a top-tier player's contract after his last contract expired, and ended up playing in Toronto b/c they paid him what he felt he was still worth. It was painful to see the Greatest Rocket Ever playing in other colors, but that's the business. And I don't hold it against Dream--if you market yourself and can make one more year at multi-million dollars, why on earth not?

Tell ya what--you succeed at the Game you love like a minute fraction of one percent of people do, racking up hall of fame credentials, get awarded (after signing lower-than-market-value contracts twice) the contract of anyone's dreams, and let's see if you "do the right thing" and hang up your cleats because you're "hurting the team". You have no idea what you would do in that situation--because you're never been there. It's awfully easy to sit in pious judgment of someone else when one has no frame of reference--NONE--other than ESPN talking heads, armchair GM'ing, and little league baseball.

Oh, and Bagwell will hit .280-.290 and drive in 90 runs while swatting 25-30 this year.

[rockets-#1]

Bagwell isn't near the player he once was; everyone knows that. Bagwell is not playing like a player worth $17 million; we all know that. But, he deserves that $17 mil for what he did in the prime of his career when he was underpaid. He deserves it for his service to the organization, so lay off 'em.

[Xenon]

Make no mistake Bagwell is the number 1 reason we are in the position we are now. Making up his lack of production in the 3 slot is something this team cannot overcome this season. Look at his stats last season and compare them to every other regular 1st baseman in the NL. They were BELOW average. Do you honestly believe he will reach even those stats this season with less protection around him and being another year older? I don't.

It's just a tough situation all around. Of course he deserves that money and I'm sure even he knows how much he is hurting the team right now, but what can you do?

Btw, I'll bet the Yankees would take him right now, as long as we package him with Pettitte or Oswalt. :(

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally posted by Xenon
Make no mistake Bagwell is the number 1 reason we are in the position we are now.
Lane's 2 for his last 22 AB's (he's streaky, big time, get used to this) & looks completely lost at the plate;
MoBerg is about the ****tiest excuse for a middle of the order run producer I've ever seen;
Mike Lamb is hitting under .200 as a starter;
Biggio & Taveras have, not unexpectedly, cooled off since their quick starts;
Luke Scott is not ready to hit MLB pitching;
Chris Burke is, and probably will always be, a punch & judy slap hitter;

Over the past week, Bagwell has been knocking the crap out of the ball (despite getting pitched around with men on base, regularly).

The 4-5-6 spots in the lineup have been the problem. They HAVE to drive in runs, and they haven't. Berkman will fix some of this, but they need another run producer, posthaste. 3B seems to be the only position that's open to a productive change...that's a hard position to upgrade, though.

The first month of the season is for evaluation, they know what the problems are with this team, now they have to make a couple of moves. Aubrey Huff makes a lot of sense, but Tampa will want MLB-ready pitching (Zeke or Wandy + another high minor league arm - a Hirsch, McLemore, Nieve type - I'd guess).

[Mr. Clutch]

I'd do that trade for Huff. We're wasting a great pitching staff right now.

[Xenon]

I consider that 3 slot the most important slot in a lineup. Not the 4, 5 or 6. I think the old mentality of putting your big rbi guy in the "cleanup" slot is outdated. Teams like the Cards (Pujols) and us last season (Berkman) have it right. You put your best hitter there, always.

So given that, you'd have to expect more from your 3 hitter than your 4-6 hitters. Look at this lineup, do you really think that someone like Ensberg is more important than Bagwell to this teams success?

[adeelsiddiqui]

Originally posted by Mr. Clutch
I'd do that trade for Huff. We're wasting a great pitching staff right now.

if we could get huff for bagwell, lets just say, id be happy.

[swilkins]

I can admire that Bagwell shows up and tries to perform, but his time has passed.

When his contract is up, he needs to retire.

He's not worth the check and I don't think we would get anything in return to justify losing him.

[leroy420]

Just a comparison for the month of April...

Jeff Bagwell: .263 avg / 3 hr / 13 rbi (1 more rbi today, so far)

Todd Helton: .267 avg / 1 hr / 9 rbi

Carlos Delgado: .300 avg / 2 hr / 10 rbi

and just for fun...

Carlos Beltran: .284 / 3 hr / 12 rbi / 1 steal


I wanted to point out that there are other 1B in the league that are also considered stars and that aren't doing much, if any, better than Bagwell. Yes, his shoulder could fall off at any second. He is still productive with the bat. He has been notorious for slow starts to the season, even at his peak.

I am with those that say that no one is worth $17 million per season. However, Jeff Bagwell (along with Biggio) has been the face of this organization for many years. He hasn't complained when times are rough. He goes out every day and plays his ass off. What he has done for this team and the city of Houston is immeasureable. I, for one, would be very disappointed to see him in another uniform. He should and will retire a Houston Astro.

[francis 4 prez]

at this point? probably larry andersen.

[Mr. Clutch]

Originally posted by leroy420
Just a comparison for the month of April...

Jeff Bagwell: .263 avg / 3 hr / 13 rbi (1 more rbi today, so far)

Todd Helton: .267 avg / 1 hr / 9 rbi

Carlos Delgado: .300 avg / 2 hr / 10 rbi

and just for fun...

Carlos Beltran: .284 / 3 hr / 12 rbi / 1 steal


I wanted to point out that there are other 1B in the league that are also considered stars and that aren't doing much, if any, better than Bagwell. Yes, his shoulder could fall off at any second. He is still productive with the bat. He has been notorious for slow starts to the season, even at his peak.

I am with those that say that no one is worth $17 million per season. However, Jeff Bagwell (along with Biggio) has been the face of this organization for many years. He hasn't complained when times are rough. He goes out every day and plays his ass off. What he has done for this team and the city of Houston is immeasureable. I, for one, would be very disappointed to see him in another uniform. He should and will retire a Houston Astro.

I agree he has done a lot for us, and his contract was backloaded so he earned it. But those other guys on the list will be way ahead of him by the end of the season.

[leroy420]

Originally posted by Mr. Clutch
I agree he has done a lot for us, and his contract was backloaded so he earned it. But those other guys on the list will be way ahead of him by the end of the season.

You may be right and you may not. I hope for the latter and he proves all of you wrong. He's not going to hit 30+ hr's, but somewhere around .290 and somewhere near 100 rbi is not out of the question and is still considered by many to be very productive, especially considering his shoulder issues.

[Xenon]

Originally posted by leroy420
Just a comparison for the month of April...

Jeff Bagwell: .263 avg / 3 hr / 13 rbi (1 more rbi today, so far)

Todd Helton: .267 avg / 1 hr / 9 rbi

Carlos Delgado: .300 avg / 2 hr / 10 rbi

and just for fun...

Carlos Beltran: .284 / 3 hr / 12 rbi / 1 steal


I wanted to point out that there are other 1B in the league that are also considered stars and that aren't doing much, if any, better than Bagwell. Yes, his shoulder could fall off at any second. He is still productive with the bat. He has been notorious for slow starts to the season, even at his peak.

I am with those that say that no one is worth $17 million per season. However, Jeff Bagwell (along with Biggio) has been the face of this organization for many years. He hasn't complained when times are rough. He goes out every day and plays his ass off. What he has done for this team and the city of Houston is immeasureable. I, for one, would be very disappointed to see him in another uniform. He should and will retire a Houston Astro.

How about a comparison for the year of 2004? ALL starting NL 1st basemen last season sorted by OPS. Just accept the fact that Bagwell is a below average 1st baseman that is hurting this team more than helping. Bagwell has been great for Houston, but these stats are sad to look at.

Helton .347/1.088 ops
Pujols .331/1.072 ops
Thome .274/.977 ops
Snow .327/.958 ops
Casey .324/.915 ops
Choi .270/.882 ops
Wilkerson .255/.872 ops
Overbay .301/.863 ops
Lee .278/.860 ops
Nevin .289/.850 ops
Bagwell .266/.842 ops
LaRoche/Franco .293/.820 ops
Hillenbrand .310/.812 ops
Green .266/.811 ops
Piazza .266/.806 ops
Ward .249/.780 ops

[msn]

Originally posted by Xenon
How about a comparison for the year of 2004? ALL starting NL 1st basemen last season sorted by OPS..... Bagwell has been great for Houston, but these stats are sad to look at.

Helton .347/1.088 ops
Pujols .331/1.072 ops
Thome .274/.977 ops
Snow .327/.958 ops
Casey .324/.915 ops
Choi .270/.882 ops
Wilkerson .255/.872 ops
Overbay .301/.863 ops
Lee .278/.860 ops
Nevin .289/.850 ops
Bagwell .266/.842 ops
LaRoche/Franco .293/.820 ops
Hillenbrand .310/.812 ops
Green .266/.811 ops
Piazza .266/.806 ops
Ward .249/.780 ops
OPS is a totally BS stat. Way to ignore RBI's which is Bagwell's job in the lineup--he finished 7 out of 16, his lowest in years. He won't finish that low this year. You can get any number to say anything you want, but is it relevant? No. OPS is for rotogeeks who prefer to pull out their freaking calculators and make blanket statements about a game rather than *watch* or *play* themselves.

Just accept the fact that Bagwell is a below average 1st baseman that is hurting this team more than helping.
I'll settle for the fact that the "OPS is proof that Bagwell is below average" post was a steaming pile.

[pgabriel]

Originally posted by msn
OPS is a totally BS stat.


says you, but if you look at the guys at the top of that list, most would consider them to be the top first basemen in the NL.

A better comparison however would be to compare Bagwell with all the No. 3 hitters in the majors, OPS, RBI, etc.

[Fegwu]

Originally posted by Mr. Clutch
I'd do that trade for Huff. We're wasting a great pitching staff right now.


Aubrey is an outfielder and I do not think that is where we need help. Like Burk hinted, we need an upgrade at 3rd base.

Brandon Inge and Corey Koskie are the only "likely" available 3rd basemen I can think of. I do not think Texas will be willing to deal Hank Blalock same for Baltimore and Melvin Mora. Ths As made Chavez their franchise player along with Zito.

We may be stock with Morgan for a while unless Mike Coolbaugh continues to tear it up in AAA and forces Tim Purpura to promote him sooner rather than later.

Someone like Koskie will be a great addition imho. We have some descent arms we can ship to Toronto for him plus Morgan.

[nWo34Life]

Looks like surgery might end his career:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=insidedisharthriticshoul&prov=tsn&type=lgns

Astros 1B Jeff Bagwell is showing improvement at the plate, but his arthritic right shoulder remains a major concern. Bagwell, who will turn 37 on May 27, eventually could end up like Albert Belle, finishing his career with a prolonged stretch on the D.L. The Astros are believed to have insurance on his contract, but they likely would not collect any money in his first season of inactivity. Bagwell is guaranteed $15 million this season and $17 million next season, plus a $7 million buyout if his option is not exercised for 2007. . . .

[leroy420]

Originally posted by nWo34Life
Looks like surgery might end his career:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=insidedisharthriticshoul&prov=tsn&type=lgns

Astros 1B Jeff Bagwell is showing improvement at the plate, but his arthritic right shoulder remains a major concern. Bagwell, who will turn 37 on May 27, eventually could end up like Albert Belle, finishing his career with a prolonged stretch on the D.L. The Astros are believed to have insurance on his contract, but they likely would not collect any money in his first season of inactivity. Bagwell is guaranteed $15 million this season and $17 million next season, plus a $7 million buyout if his option is not exercised for 2007. . . .

That's what they've been saying all along. That's why he hasn't had it. I think he will retire after the 2006 season. Maybe a chance after this season if they were to work out a buyout. I would like to see him get one last standing ovation, though. He should be allowed to go out on his terms and that is what the Astros are doing for him.

[msn]

Originally posted by pgabriel
says you,
Says a lot of people. It's not as bad as some others, though--like CERA.

[MadMax]

This is a moot point. He's not going anywhere. No one is taking on that contract. Let's hope we get more out of him. He's on pace for about 95 RBI's right now. Put Berkman behind him, and my guess is he'll start seeing better pitches. Right now he has zero protection in that lineup.

But he's not going anywhere.

[hardwood]

...and he provides zero protection for the two hole where Everett should reside.The trickle down effect is HUGE.

[rrj_gamz]

He's not going anywhere...His skills have diminished, but unless someone wants this huge contract, he's staying...

[SamCassell]

Everett doesn't need to be in the 2 hole. And Bags doesn't need to hit 3rd. I admire the hell out of Bags, btw, for going out there every day and playing through the pain. Yes he's a shell of his former self, yes he's over paid, but dude still swings hard every AB, still gives it his all in the field, still plays full out with whatever he's got. He could have Frank Thomas'd or Jason Giambi'd his career a long time ago, sat on the DL and still collected a check.

[hardwood]

Pre wrist injury Everett,
handles the bat well
can handle the fastball
had protection
has speed on the bases and knows how to use it
IS a good bunter
Let him come all the way back.
..and I take nothing away from Bags as a player or person.I just hope he retires after this year exceptin the buyout,because it's painful to watch him out there now,plus it's hurting the team.

[Buck Turgidson]

10-5 rights as well, Max. Much of this thread is just bitching for the sake of bitching, totally divorced from reality.

The timing of this thread is awesome, considering he's hitting about .450 over the past week, and has been getting on base at a ~.380 clip.

I consider that 3 slot the most important slot in a lineup. Not the 4, 5 or 6. I think the old mentality of putting your big rbi guy in the "cleanup" slot is outdated. Teams like the Cards (Pujols) and us last season (Berkman) have it right. You put your best hitter there, always.

Xenon, you're not reinventing the wheel here, the 3-hole is, and has been for a loooooong time, reserved for the best hitter on the team - the guy with the best combination of average, power and on base ability. Nothing new here.

The 4-5 spots are the most important RBI spots in the lineup, spots where power is a necessity, and for the most part, they've been well below average for the Stros this season. Berkman will help this immensely, and in the meantime the increased p.t. for Lamb has been huge. Ensberg is just about useless in rbi situations, his approach at the plate is baffling. 6 hole is a big rbi spot as well, has to "pick up" the other 2 if they fail to drive in men on base, especially when they get pitched around & walk a ton ahead of them, like Bagwell & Berkman.

p.s. Berkman had only 54 ab's hitting 3rd last year, he's said repeatedly that he doesn't feel comfortable there, and prefers hitting 4th.

Personally, my lineup in a couple of weeks would be:

Willy
AE (much better plate patience this year, gives Willy a chance to run, opposed to Bigg)
Bags
Berk
Lane
Biggio
Lamb
Brad

[msn]

Originally posted by Buck Turgidson
10-5 rights as well, Max. Much of this thread is just bitching for the sake of bitching, totally divorced from reality.
Exactly.

[Xenon]

Originally posted by Buck Turgidson
Personally, my lineup in a couple of weeks would be:

Willy
AE (much better plate patience this year, gives Willy a chance to run, opposed to Bigg)
Bags
Berk
Lane
Biggio
Lamb
Brad

When will you guys get it through your heads that Everett is NOT a top of the order hitter? This guy will never get on base enough to justify hitting him there. What you need is a guy that isn't going to struggle to hit .270 and can easily keep an obp above .340. These are things that Everett cannot do. He is the prototypical 8 slot hitter. When has he ever shown that he deserves a top of the order slot? Is it because he can sacrifice bunt? Please.

Taveras
Biggio
Berkman
Lane
Bagwell
Lamb
Everett
Ausmus

or

Taveras
Ensberg
Berkman
Lane
Biggio
Bagwell
Everett
Ausmus

[msn]

Originally posted by Xenon
When will you guys get it through your heads that Everett is NOT a top of the order hitter?
When will you get it through your head that the 2-hole is about more than OBP? (and no, I'm not talking about bunting)

Just because the voices in your head didn't tell you about it doesn't mean it's not true.

[Xenon]

Originally posted by msn
When will you get it through your head that the 2-hole is about more than OBP? (and no, I'm not talking about bunting)

Just because the voices in your head didn't tell you about it doesn't mean it's not true.

If youre talking about patience at the plate then Ensberg fits the bill much better than Everett. This has the added benefit of someone that can actually get on base at a better than .317 clip.

[msn]

Originally posted by Xenon
If youre talking about patience at the plate then Ensberg fits the bill much better than Everett.
No I wasn't, but nice example in Ensberg, there. Dude is whiffing like Jose Hernandez this year.

This has the added benefit of someone that can actually get on base at a better than .317 clip.
There you go making it all about OBP again.

[Xenon]

Ensberg has 22 so's to Everett's 18 so's. That isn't as dramatic a difference as you make it out to be.

Then what it is that makes Everett such a great 2 slot hitter? It's not obp. 320ish for his career. Compared to .360ish for Ensberg. It's not his patience at the plate. Is it his speed? 2 sb's in 4 attempts? Blistering...

[Buck Turgidson]

1. handles the bat well - ability to hit behind the runner, foul off tough pitches, good bunter (he hits a lot of grounders to the left side, if guys start cheating up to defense the bunt, it's easier for those to get by);
2. plate discipline - good eye & patience, has gotten much better since the middle of last year;
3. baserunning - good speed, makes good turns at the bases, fast enough to beat out d.p. grounders, pretty good SB threat;
4. hitting him 2nd makes the lineup deeper and gets one of their better XB hitters (Biggio) into a better RBI spot.

[msn]

Originally posted by Xenon
Ensberg has 22 so's to Everett's 18 so's. That isn't as dramatic a difference as you make it out to be.
I wasn't comparing and Ensberg and Everett--you're the only one who seems to be interested in that.

Then what it is that makes Everett such a great 2 slot hitter?
See Turgidson's post. I've already tried to explain it here too many times, I'm bored with the redundancy.

It's not obp.
Good Lord, man, how many times do I have to say it's not about OBP? Tell ya what, for good measure, why don't post five or six *more* times about AE's OBP?

Is it his speed? 2 sb's in 4 attempts? Blistering... You do realize that speed accomplishes more than stolen bases, don't you? But no, it wasn't speed. Check Buck's post.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Buck Turgidson
1. handles the bat well - ability to hit behind the runner, foul off tough pitches, good bunter (he hits a lot of grounders to the left side, if guys start cheating up to defense the bunt, it's easier for those to get by);
2. plate discipline - good eye & patience, has gotten much better since the middle of last year;
3. baserunning - good speed, makes good turns at the bases, fast enough to beat out d.p. grounders, pretty good SB threat;
4. hitting him 2nd makes the lineup deeper and gets one of their better XB hitters (Biggio) into a better RBI spot.

Of all the points, #3 is the only one that i think truly applies to Everett.

I don't think he handles the bat that well. To say he can hit behind the runner when he wants and pull one down the line when somoene charges in for a bunt is like saying he is Tony gwynn-like...which obviously isnt the case.

I guess you could make a case for #2.

I think hitting him 2nd might mkae the lineup deeper, but also puts a guy who is a lifetime 1 for 4 hitter in a crucial spot in the lineup.

[msn]

Originally posted by NJRocket
Of all the points, #3 is the only one that i think truly applies to Everett.
Well, you're wrong. :)

To say he can hit behind the runner when he wants and pull one down the line when somoene charges in for a bunt is like saying he is Tony gwynn-like...which obviously isnt the case.
No, it's not hyperbole at all. If one can be a good jump shooter without being Larry Byrd, then one can hit well behind the runner without being Tony Gwynn.

[hardwood]

When healthy,with protection Everett is the perfect 2 hitter.The guy is recovering from the wrist,has been hit leadoff:rolleyes: ,and has Bags hitting .207 behind him.And he is still very young.Even so,when he went down last year,Adam was proving it on the MLB level.Give him some time.He'll be an all star for many years.

[Mr. Clutch]

Originally posted by Fegwu
Aubrey is an outfielder and I do not think that is where we need help. Like Burk hinted, we need an upgrade at 3rd base.

Brandon Inge and Corey Koskie are the only "likely" available 3rd basemen I can think of. I do not think Texas will be willing to deal Hank Blalock same for Baltimore and Melvin Mora. Ths As made Chavez their franchise player along with Zito.

We may be stock with Morgan for a while unless Mike Coolbaugh continues to tear it up in AAA and forces Tim Purpura to promote him sooner rather than later.

Someone like Koskie will be a great addition imho. We have some descent arms we can ship to Toronto for him plus Morgan.

Huff can play 3rd, he was originally a 3rd baseman when he got to the majors.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by msn
Well, you're wrong. :)


No, it's not hyperbole at all. If one can be a good jump shooter without being Larry Byrd, then one can hit well behind the runner without being Tony Gwynn.

saying he can put the ball where he needs to when he needs to, is not an accurate description of Adam Everett

[msn]

Originally posted by NJRocket
saying he can put the ball where he needs to when he needs to, is not an accurate description of Adam Everett
That's not an accurate description of anyone, if you're going to mince words. Most guys fail 7.5 times out of 10, and the really good ones only fail 7 or 6.25 times out of 10.

He hits behind the runner. If you argue that, you weren't watching or you didn't know what you were watching.

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally posted by NJRocket
I don't think he handles the bat that well. To say he can hit behind the runner when he wants and pull one down the line when somoene charges in for a bunt is like saying he is Tony gwynn-like...which obviously isnt the case.
a) He handles the bat well enough to slow his hands down, drag the bat through the zone & hit the ball to the right side behind the runner. I've seen him consciously do this exact thing several times over the past year.

b) Not talking about showing bunt & then hacking. His *natural swing* produces a ton of balls on the ground to the left side. In potential sacrifice situations, the 3B will cheat up a few steps *before the pitch* in case there is a bunt, balls get on him quicker & you'll get some extra balls past him. This is not really a big deal, more of a tangential benefit.

I guess you could make a case for #2.

Garner has praised his ability to "get deep into counts" & "see a lot of pitches". His OB% is ~80 points higher than his BA (remains to be seen if that continues). His approach at the plate is much different than it was early last season and earlier in his career.

p.s. Everett currently has the same OB% as Craig Biggio, .011 lower than Willy.

[SamCassell]

Originally posted by hardwood
And he is still very young.Even so,when he went down last year,Adam was proving it on the MLB level.Give him some time.He'll be an all star for many years.
Still very young! Adam Everett is 28, which is the prime of his career. Most hitters peak at between 26 and 28. Tejada is 28, Michael Young is 28, those guys are big time shortstops in their prime. In the NL, Rollins is 26, Furcal is 26, both are much better all-around SSs than Everett, and younger. Dude's not going to be a multiple All-Star, he's a very good gloveman who strikes out way too much to qualify as a top-of-the-order hitter, and he doesn't walk. And he doesn't hit for enough power to qualify for middle of the order. Unlike Ausmus, I'm OK with Everett at SS, I like his defense, but I don't harbor any illusions about him being a perennial all-star candidate.

[hardwood]

OK,while he's not as young as I thought,Adam is inexperienced,though proffessional at the MLB level,with plenty of upside.The guy figures to be our starting SS for the next 7 or so years.Even if he just plays 6 because of injury,that's 6 seasons of all star eligibility for a guy who is,arguably already the best defensively at his position.He is capable of hitting anywhere from .270-310.Go back to right before Everett was injured,hitting in the 2 hole.I know he was like at .270 overrall,but was hot in the 2.Before he was hurt,Everett had caught up to Major League pitching.

[hardwood]

2 hole with protection

[Random.]

Originally posted by SamCassell
Still very young! Adam Everett is 28, which is the prime of his career. Most hitters peak at between 26 and 28.

This observation is actually something that has seriously been troubling me about the Astros new "youth movement."

Besides Taveras and Burke, there is very little "youth" on our team, and Burke's playing time is sporadic at best.

Lane, Ensberg, Lamb, Berkman, are all in the 29 to 30 year old range, and Everett is 28.

I'm not really sure how much upside most of these guys have, getting their big "break" in the majors well past (or into) their prime. By the time they get some seasoning, they'll be 32 and for the most part journeymen.

Obviously, it 's mainly the fault of the Astros (through their success) by delaying Lane's progress so much (and is there any doubt how much better he'd be if he had been a full time outfielder for the past 2 or 3 seasons), as they are doing now to Burke.

But the real question is, should we just temper our expectations of what Lamb, Lane, Ensberg, and Everett can actually produce, or should we still expect them to improve like a player in the mid 20s (when they are in their early 30s)?

My bet is that in general (not Lane) they are they are all about as good as they'll ever be, and hoping for perenial All Star status out of any of those three is too much. It's also why I think Burke should get more playing time now, instead of having to play some utility role until Biggio decides to retire and suddenly he's 29 or 30 too.