Kent is tearing it up

[fya]

Nice job, Purpura.

The Stros' glaring weaknesses (obvious over the offseason) are being exposed.

MIDDLE RELIEF &

SOME OFFENSE TO REPLACE C-BELT & KENT

The only way this team will change is if the fans stop going to the park. And with Clemens on the team, that is doubtful.

McLane is a smart man, but doesn't care about winning.

No middle relief = no chance-----unless you have Beltran, Berkman, and Kent in the middle of your lineup.

[Puedlfor]

oh, for ****s sake.

[Clutch]

Kent is a great offensive player, we knew that ... and he is in fact tearing it up, but the Astros have Biggio, who was a liability in left field, and a young prospect in Burke. If they had kept Kent, I'm not sure that filled our greatest need.

Beltran is a whole 'nother story though.

To let Kent go to save some money for Beltran, then lose Beltran and really only spend to keep a cash cow like Clemens.... yeah, it's a little hard to swallow after such an amazing season. Right now there's more pop left in Debbie Gibson than there is in the Astros lineup, but it is nice to see Lane hitting some out of the park.

[Rocket Fan]

I wish we had kept Kent too. I never understood the attitude at the time that it was no big deal that we let him go.. he was our leading rbi guy, and was probably worth the money we had on his option for one more year

[bottlerocket]

Wasn't that the last straw for Hunsiker?

Hunsicker wanted to resign Kent but Uncle Drayton veto that notion. We are missing his bat in the line up.

[pgabriel]

Originally posted by bottlerocket
Wasn't that the last straw for Hunsiker?

Hunsicker wanted to resign Kent but Uncle Drayton veto that notion. We are missing his bat in the line up.


I think you hit the nail on the head. Not signing Kent to keep Biggio on the field I think drove Hunsinker over the edge. You can say what you want about Burke or keeping Biggio, but Kent has out performed his contract every year as an Astro. If you are going to be the sensible spending team, you keep your best values. Didn't the guy lead this team in RBI last season, and you don't want to pay him $8million to keep Biggio on the field. Further proof that Drayton wants to sell tickets more than win.


I didn't write anything in the threads when they decided not to resign, but you guys who don't think he was worth the money are dead wrong.

[leroy420]

Sorry, but none of you know what pushed Gerry to walk away.

Kent was given a fair offer and he turned it down. He is a good offensive player and the Astros are missing his bat. Oh freaking well. What do any of you say about what Biggio is providing at 2nd this season? He certainly is producing and playing at least as well defensively as Kent does. Get over it.

[mateo]

Stros are gonna suck this year but Tavarez and Scott and Burke are at least getting some play. I figure Berkman will move back to 1B when Bags retires.

[leroy420]

It's TAVERAS



Sorry, but so many are butchering his name. He is not at AA anymore. At least give him the respect of spelling his name correctly, Mataeo.

[Htownhero]

Originally posted by leroy420
It's TAVERAS



Sorry, but so many are butchering his name. He is not at AA anymore. At least give him the respect of spelling his name correctly, Mataeo.

http://nofreelist.com/images/nofreelist/movie/341.jpg

"Lighten up, Francis"

[Nick]

Kent was a guy that I would have loved to see come back.... but he wanted more than the 1 year $7 million w/ an option year based on some easily meant incentives (plate appearences).... and he got it from the Dodgers.

Additionally, you guys are acting like its a no-brainer to choose another 2 years of a 38 year old Kent over Biggio... we're talking about a guy who is an Astro-lifer, has accomodated and switched positions for the club, and who has sacrificed his body over the long-haul big-time.... it was clearly a tough-ass decision.

Finally, you guys are clueless to why Gerry really quit. There's no way you can go as far as to say that he left because of the Kent situation. The ONE guy who I know Gerry wanted in this lineup over the last 3 years was Jason Lane... and he was suggesting to not re-sign Biggio to do that... but Drayton resigned him.

EDIT: Looks like Redding still can't figure it out in the best of pitcher's parks in Dodgers stadium... he gives up 5 ER on 3 HR in 5 innings so far.... hell, even Suckworth had a better day than that.

[Rocket Fan]

nick.. didn't we already have an option on him though???

I thought we had a 1 year option for 9 million that we could have exercised. Sure it would have been 9 million stead of 7 million, but it would have made us only have to give him 1 more year.

[Oski2005]

I gotta say I agree. . . on the misspelling of Taveras. How hard is it to spell this name? TA-VER-AS, it's so simple. It's not like people are demanding you know how to spell Mientkiewicz.:p

[Rocket Fan]

It's not half as bad as the fact that I saw people spell Clemens name. Clements.. many times last year!

[gunn]

Originally posted by Nick

Additionally, you guys are acting like its a no-brainer to choose another 2 years of a 38 year old Kent over Biggio... we're talking about a guy who is an Astro-lifer, has accomodated and switched positions for the club, and who has sacrificed his body over the long-haul big-time.... it was clearly a tough-ass decision.

Since when was it a "one or the other" situation? I didn't know we added a stud leftfielder to force Biggio elsewhere thus having the luxury of not re-signing Kent. Drayton is a penny pinching snake who cuts corners in the name of winning for the sake of the bottom line. Get out of town snake.

[Nick]

Originally posted by gunn
[B]Since when was it a "one or the other" situation? I didn't know we added a stud leftfielder to force Biggio elsewhere thus having the luxury of not re-signing Kent. [B]

Maybe it was Biggio then... I have a feeling that he DID NOT want to end up playing LF again.

I'm not going to debate your opinion on Drayton. He does care about the bottom line... but you do have to realize that ALL teams not named the Yankees do that.

Show me another mid-market team, and I will tell you guys they've had to part w/ for payroll reasons... in some cases, really good players who went on to do much better than Kent is going to do for the Dodgers.

[gunn]

Originally posted by Nick
Maybe it was Biggio then... I have a feeling that he DID NOT want to end up playing LF again.

I'm not going to debate your opinion on Drayton. He does care about the bottom line... but you do have to realize that ALL teams not named the Yankees do that.

Show me another mid-market team, and I will tell you guys they've had to part w/ for payroll reasons... in some cases, really good players who went on to do much better than Kent is going to do for the Dodgers.

St. Louis

My "opinion" on Drayton is fact. We are not just talking about a run-of-the-mill, mid-market team with a mid-market owner here with the Astros. We are talking about a mid-market team with the weathiest owner in baseball at it's side, and a team that generates revenues to place them in the upper third in the league. The problem is: that we have a swindling snake of an owner; one that has consistantly lied about losing money, and in previous years failed to open the books to back it up. The events that transpired this offseason are nearly ironclad in showing the motives of the penny pinching snake.

[Nick]

Originally posted by gunn
St. Louis

My "opinion" on Drayton is fact. We are not just talking about a run-of-the-mill, mid-market team with a mid-market owner here with the Astros. We are talking about a mid-market team with the weathiest owner in baseball at it's side, and a team that generates revenues to place them in the upper third in the league. The problem is: that we have a swindling snake of an owner; one that has consistantly lied about losing money, and in previous years failed to open the books to back it up. The events that transpired this offseason are nearly ironclad in showing the motives of the penny pinching snake.

Awesome... I'm glad you chose St. Louis... since I lived there for 4 years, I do actually know what goes on there... and you will be SHOCKED that they are just as much a mid-market team as anybody else around.

First of all, w/ Drayton, he may have the most net-worth, but none of that was from baseball. He probably doesn't lose money anymore, but by playing for 10 years in one of the worst baseball stadiums, along w/ one of the worst television contracts... its understandable that it took him awhile to come around on the payroll. I'm not vouching for the Drayton before MMP was opened... that guy had some major talent that could have won earlier than they did... but I haven't found much to complain about the last 3 years, starting with the Kent signing.

Now for St. Louis... first, lets look at how they arrived at their current team:

1. David Eckstein - Couldn't afford to pay Edgar Renteria what he wanted, so they settled for somebody who makes less, is worse, and will never be confused for anything other than an average MLB shortstop. I'd even take our light-hitting SS over him just for defensive purposes.

2. Larry Walker - I'll admit... this was a good trade for them. I liken it to us picking up Kent for our two years with him. Management saw that they had a shot at him last year, and since they were only like 30 games up on the division, they decided that "yea, this could be our year." That wasn't the case, however, the previous year where management refused to allow some of the discussed trades because of payroll issues.

3. Albert Pujols - fell into their lap when a fluke injury allowed Bobby Bonilia to make the team. He's homegrown... equilavent to our system producing Lance, with the exception that we spent a first round pick on Lance. St. Louis never knew what they were getting in Pujols, until he showed up... hmm, playing the kids... where have I heard complaints about that before.

4. Scott Rolen - the trade looks lop-sided now, but at the time, Bud Smith was a lights out pitcher who had thrown 3 no-hitters in the minor leauges, and one at the major league level... and Placido Polanco was a great player for them (and for Philly), and he was one of LaRussa's favorites. Rolen fell in love with St. Louis, and told Boras to make it happen (he ended up getting far less than he would have had he spoken to the Yankees or Red Sox... it never happened, because he loved St. Louis). Too bad our mid-season trade pickup didn't do the same for us.... is it Drayton's fault that he never fell in love with Houston? He only probably raised his contract value by $20 million by trading for him, and giving him a chance to shine on the big stage of the playoffs for his team.

6. Jim Edmonds - Another steal of a trade... Edmonds was an average-above average CF for Anaheim, who the Cardinals got for KENT BOTTENFIELD and Adam Kennedy. Once again, they weren't expecting this sort of production from him.

5. Mark Mulder - Again... this is a trade situation first of all. Secondly, its one that could end up being lopsided in the A's favor. Daric Barton is one of the BEST catching prospects out there. Kiko Calero is one of the BEST middle relief pitchers out there. And Danny Haren is one of the BEST young pitchers from the minors. Mulder could be washed up, since he's been awful in his last SIXTEEN starts... but then again, he could become a cy young candidate again. Who knows.

Now that you see the above players, who pretty much fell into their laps, lets see the ones who they've let go due to payroll issues:
1. Steve Kline - lefty reliever, gets people out, looks like he was unhappy in the end to go but he made his decision... just like Beltran did.

2. J.D. Drew - You think they'd rather have Larry Walker for the next two years, over JD for the next 10? They ended up getting Jason Marquis and Adam Wainwright for him... and those guys will be decent, but the Braves normally don't let good pitching go unless they know something. BTW... this was strictly a payroll move since Drew was going to be a FA. They tried to pass it off as a "he's always injured" thing, but there were plenty of Cardinals fans who were PISSED that they got rid of JD, and he actually had a good year.

3. Woody Williams - I know you're probably laughing about this, but Cardinals fans actually wanted to keep this guy. He revitilized his career there, and in the end, he had a pretty decent playoff showing (game 5). Now, they have to settle for an off-and-on Matt Morris and Jeff Suppan.

4. Edgar Renteria - already mentioned above.



So, in the end, Houston and St. Louis are pretty damn similiar. Since the Cardinals have drawn 3 million fans every year since 2000, the revenue streams are about even. Also, they had a slight edge on television/radio payroll that was only recently trumped by the new tv deal we got. Finally, they got Rolen and Edmonds to stay because of how great they loved playing in St. Louis, not because they broke the bank for them... and the last BIG NAME FA they signed was Tino Martinez. We've actually been more successful in both the FA signing department (Kent, Pettite), as well as the minor league system department (Oswalt, Lidge, Lane).

Why have they been more successful? (or just as succesful, if you count our good years in the late 90's, while they were having bad years). A couple of trades that worked out better than they possibly could have imagined in Edmonds and Rolen. A bunch of #2 starters who pitched above their heads last year like Suppan and Carpenter. And finally, a freak of nature in Albert Pujols.

[gunn]

Originally posted by Nick
Awesome... I'm glad you chose St. Louis... since I lived there for 4 years, I do actually know what goes on there... and you will be SHOCKED that they are just as much a mid-market team as anybody else around.

If they are "just as much a mid-market team" as the Astros and their revenues a nearly equal then why the huge differential in payroll? One reason: ownership.

First of all, w/ Drayton, he may have the most net-worth, but none of that was from baseball. He probably doesn't lose money anymore, but by playing for 10 years in one of the worst baseball stadiums, along w/ one of the worst television contracts... its understandable that it took him awhile to come around on the payroll. I'm not vouching for the Drayton before MMP was opened... that guy had some major talent that could have won earlier than they did... but I haven't found much to complain about the last 3 years, starting with the Kent signing.

As far as Drayton's net worth is concered, yes, a chunk of that is from baseball, and the Astros to be specific. If you do not have any questions, or problems rather, with this past offseason, then you are clearly turning a blind eye to reality.

Now for St. Louis... first, lets look at how they arrived at their current team:

1. David Eckstein - Couldn't afford to pay Edgar Renteria what he wanted, so they settled for somebody who makes less, is worse, and will never be confused for anything other than an average MLB shortstop. I'd even take our light-hitting SS over him just for defensive purposes.

No questioning that. But I would take Eckstein over our NON-Hitting SS, defense aside, eight days a week.

4. Scott Rolen - the trade looks lop-sided now, but at the time, Bud Smith was a lights out pitcher who had thrown 3 no-hitters in the minor leauges, and one at the major league level... and Placido Polanco was a great player for them (and for Philly), and he was one of LaRussa's favorites. Rolen fell in love with St. Louis, and told Boras to make it happen (he ended up getting far less than he would have had he spoken to the Yankees or Red Sox... it never happened, because he loved St. Louis). Too bad our mid-season trade pickup didn't do the same for us.... is it Drayton's fault that he never fell in love with Houston? He only probably raised his contract value by $20 million by trading for him, and giving him a chance to shine on the big stage of the playoffs for his team.

The Phillies were in a position as to where they had to trade Rolen or he was going to walk at season's end with no compensation in return. Bud Smith was disappointing the season in which he was traded, but he's a lefty and had promise. What is Drayton's fault is that he didn't meet the asking price for Beltran to begin with, nor did agree to the inclusion of a no-trade clause. Drayton is a swindling rat who has every reason to withhold information. Because he is a liar.

6. Jim Edmonds - Another steal of a trade... Edmonds was an average-above average CF for Anaheim, who the Cardinals got for KENT BOTTENFIELD and Adam Kennedy. Once again, they weren't expecting this sort of production from him.

"Average-above average CF" is laughable. Edmonds has been a Gold Glove caliber CF since his coming into the league. He was an All-Star in his first full season in which he hit .290 33 HR and 107 RBI. Over the next three years with the Angels he never hit below .290 and never had less than 25 home runs, so to say "they weren't expecting this sort of production from him" is equally as laughable as saying your above remarks regarding the player of the same name. Also, they may have got these players through trades, but they've also inked them to deals.

[Baqui99]

In retrospect, I would have liked to bring back Kent for one or two more years to make one final run at the World Series while Roger is here.

But last year's team struggled to manufacture runs, which absolutely killed us in the playoffs. Not to mention our defense (aside from Beltran) was nothing to brag about. We need to focus on situational hitting this year. I'd like to see us move runners up, get down good sac bunts, and steal bases. Combine that with good defense and great pitching, and we could end up doing pretty well this year.

[Mr. Clutch]

Originally posted by gunn
Originally posted by Nick
Awesome... I'm glad you chose St. Louis... since I lived there for 4 years, I do actually know what goes on there... and you will be SHOCKED that they are just as much a mid-market team as anybody else around.

If they are "just as much a mid-market team" as the Astros and their revenues a nearly equal then why the huge differential in payroll? One reason: ownership.


According to Forbes, the Astros make $10 million in income, while the Cardinals lose $4 million, which about makes up the difference in payroll.

[Nick]

gunn.... Rolen and Edmonds agreed to stay in St. Louis long-term (below market value) because that city loves baseball, they love the people who play baseball there, and they both knew that the situation was just too good to pass up. How does Drayton control that situation?

Also, I know Edmonds had decent numbers in anaheim... above average numbers. Did the Cardinals think he would become the 40 HR, 100 RBI, 100 BB guy that he's been 3 out of the last 5 years, HELL NO... and there was NOTHING he did in his first 7 years in Anaheim that said he would all of a sudden start doing that with regularity.

Hell... if the Angels had thought that, don't you think they would have asked for more than Kent Bottenfield?!?

Also, I am not turning a blind eye to anything about Drayton... I agree that he (like most houstonians who thought we had a legit shot at Beltran) was played by Boras. Was there anything he could have done to stop that, call them out, and move on to another direction??? No... because then everybody here (including yourself) would have accused him of being a snake. You said "he didn't meet his asking price".... then why did Boras say (of all things) that they had actually AGREED financially? (which Drayton actually denied). It was apparently the other stuff that caused the hold-up. (which is a bunch of BS... how close do you really think we were... I say not close at all, otherwise they would have talked a little bit more than just the final day before the deadline).

In the end, I've seen Drayton gone from somebody who refused to draft certain players because of their asking price, let home-grown pitchers like Kile and Hampton walk, and a guy who tried to pass the Astrodome off as a great place to play sports (only to flip-flop once the Oilers left)... to a guy who signs draft picks like Troy Patton out of HS, ensures that all of the stud home-grown players will be Astros for life (Berkman, Oswalt, and soon Lidge extensions), and who goes out and signs the big name FA's to try and remain competitive (Kent, Pettite, and the $100 million + he offered to Beltran).

The guy offered over $100 million, and Beltran turned it down. Rolen stayed in St. Louis for 8 years $90 million, when he turned down over $100 million offers from the Phillies the year before, and the Yankees would have offered him a boat-load had he negotiated with them.

You can blame Drayton for a lot of things... but its hard to blame him for trying to sign a guy who didn't want to be here in the first place. Why didn't Carlos allow us to come to his home? Why did he sign with the Mets the day after the deadline... don't you think if he was only considering the Astros, he would have taken some more time to think about other teams now that Houston wasn't in the picture?

In the end, the Cardinals do spend a little more... but its only because they've acquired the players to do so via some great trades by Walt Jocketty, and in turn... those players agreed to stay there for far less than market value.

Had Rolen tried to pull a Beltran and get top value no matter what, St. Louis WOULD NOT have resigned him... just like they didn't re-sign JD Drew or Edgar Renteria.

The end of the story is that... all teams care about the bottom line, and all teams (besides the Yankees) sacrifice good players to do so. The Cardinals did that to Drew and Renteria, and the Astros did that to Kent (but not Beltran... the guy you're trying to sign has to actually want to stay here).

[MykTek]

sheeshes....the season is started, forget the offseason, cheer for what we have now, when we get berkman back, we'll be ok....Lane is proving he can makeup some of the power that we lost....

[BigM]

Originally posted by Puedlfor
oh, for ****s sake.

the thread should have stopped here. :)

[Groogrux]

I'm still trying to figure out how and why half of you call yourself ****ing Astros fans.

Please, for the love of all that is holy, go ****ing root for the Dodgers, Cardinals, Cubs, or any other ****ing team.

Of course, a few years into it, you'll be bitching about that team's owner and the players and everything else except actually watching the game for pleasure. I just don't get it.

[MadMax]

I think I just threw up a little in my mouth.

[Dennis2112]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
I'm still trying to figure out how and why half of you call yourself ****ing Astros fans.

Please, for the love of all that is holy, go ****ing root for the Dodgers, Cardinals, Cubs, or any other ****ing team.

Of course, a few years into it, you'll be bitching about that team's owner and the players and everything else except actually watching the game for pleasure. I just don't get it.


Well said RM95!!!!!

I root for the uniform not the players. Whoever has the uniform on is who I cheer for...period.

GO ASTROS!!!!!!!

[A-Train]

wow...people whining about a former player doing well for another team...I thought I was in GARM for a second

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
I'm still trying to figure out how and why half of you call yourself ****ing Astros fans.

Please, for the love of all that is holy, go ****ing root for the Dodgers, Cardinals, Cubs, or any other ****ing team.

Of course, a few years into it, you'll be bitching about that team's owner and the players and everything else except actually watching the game for pleasure. I just don't get it.

RM - the fact that we ARE fans is the reason why we want a winning team on the field. This isn't little league where we really want the kids to have fun and see everyone play different positions.

Some of us spend a lot of money on season tickets and expect a good product in return...every year....regardless of what our market level is compared to the rest of the league.

We have a wealthy owner who, while MANY times has made a TRADE midseason to bolster our chances, doesn't really like to part with a buck. Fact is, the trades were exectued by a guy he supposedly help drive out of town because they didn;t see eye to eye on how they should build a team.

I, and other ingrates, could turn to you homers and say, "how the hell do you call yourselves Astros fans if you dont really care that we have a horrible lineup and dont have a very good chance at making the playoffs? Go root for the Pirates and you can be happy that we are giving young guys a shot and not spending money" just like you do to us. Its no different.

[fya]

Amen, bro ^

[MadMax]

NJ -- for clarification...do you think McLane is a "snake." a constant liar??

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by MadMax
NJ -- for clarification...do you think McLane is a "snake." a constant liar??

No

[Groogrux]

It's called supporting your team through good times and bad. As a franchise, despite no World Series rings, we've had a great run over the last decade. That success has earned the team as a whole some ****ing respect, which most of you don't show at all.

And whether it's little league or MLB, it's still a game. One that has been made more enjoyable to me during the last decade thanks to our owner, our management and our players. Instead of consistently ****ting on them like many of you do, I, along with precious few here, decide to respect them.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by NJRocket
No

ok..i'm thinking there's a difference. i disagree with you on this team. and i think you probably suck some of the joy out of being a fan for yourself. but we can disagree on the lineup.

but when you're arguing with someone who starts at the premise that the owner is a snake...someone who lies without thinking...well, it's hard to even engage that. there's no common point for discussion, because it comes back to some "truth" to the other guy that trumps every argument you make.

if you believe they got played by boras, that's fine. but i don't think you' believe McLane's offer to Beltran was disingenuous or illusory. from what you've said, your problem with McLane in that deal was that he got played..that he was naive. But not that you felt his offer was just trash thrown out there to look good to the public, knowing it wouldn't be taken or something like that. So if you believe he genuinely made that offer, which would have been among the richest in league history, it's hard to argue that he's a cheapskate after the fact.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
It's called supporting your team through good times and bad. As a franchise, despite no World Series rings, we've had a great run over the last decade. That success has earned the team as a whole some ****ing respect, which most of you don't show at all.

And whether it's little league or MLB, it's still a game. One that has been made more enjoyable to me during the last decade thanks to our owner, our management and our players. Instead of consistently ****ting on them like many of you do, I, along with precious few here, decide to respect them.

and i agree with this, too. baseball is still fun for me, particularly when my team is competing down the stretch of the season. for MOST of my life, the astros didn't do that, save a few rare exceptions. in drayton's era, it's been something they've done nearly annually.

[Groogrux]

BTW, can someone show me proof, with quotes from Hunsicker, that he was forced out? This is just another one of the anti-Astros person's typical made up argument.

Also, just because you want a winner regardless of market level doesn't mean that there isn't a market level that the Astros are in. They're not the Yankees. I'm not understanding why some of you can't or won't understand the economics of baseball. Oh yeah, blind hatred.

Sad.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
It's called supporting your team through good times and bad. .

I support this team as much or more than anyone on this board...whether its watching games or buying season tickets year after year.

I respect the players as much as anyone.....but if its time for a change, then I'll complain that the guys are too old, too slow, or just plain not good enough to be here and that we need to go out and fill some holes...like other good teams do who have wealthy owners.

You seem to have the same view on the Astros (which is fine...its your kool aid...stir it as u like) that has driven fans here nuts for years....and that is that you would rather be loyal to some of the players who have given you pleasure in the past as opposed to keeping up with the Jonses and doing what you need to so.

The thing is....we are in the "what have you done for me lately" age in every major sport....not the "what did you do for me for the past 7 yrs" age. If we, as a team and as fans, choose to be ok with the former, then we will watch the playoffs and enjoy some exciting regular season games from time to time......but if we go out and approach things as they should be approached in this day and age of free agency, perhaps we will continue to have success.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
BTW, can someone show me proof, with quotes from Hunsicker, that he was forced out? This is just another one of the anti-Astros person's typical made up argument.

.

can u show proof that he wasnt?

[Groogrux]

We're 11 games removed from being one game away from the World Series. I'm sorry if that's not enough time for me to come to the conclusion that we're not "keeping up with the Joneses".

When I say the bad times, I'm not saying we're in the midst of a bad time. It's way too soon to tell whether you doomsdayers want to say we are or not. And if/when we ever are, I'm going to wait and reserve judgement until I see how long and what the team does to get out of it. I'm sure that will take more than 11 games too.

The vast majority of MLB teams do it the same way the Astros do.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by NJRocket
can u show proof that he wasnt?

It's not up to me to prove an accusation with absolutely no proof of truth as false. If you're going to make an accusation, you better back it up with facts.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by NJRocket


The thing is....we are in the "what have you done for me lately" age in every major sport....not the "what did you do for me for the past 7 yrs" age. If we, as a team and as fans, choose to be ok with the former, then we will watch the playoffs and enjoy some exciting regular season games from time to time......but if we go out and approach things as they should be approached in this day and age of free agency, perhaps we will continue to have success.

to be fair, part of that is because he's less willing to write off players he contends are still producing. Biggio is the big glowing example of that.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by MadMax
to be fair, part of that is because he's less willing to write off players he contends are still producing. Biggio is the big glowing example of that.

That's the most maddening part of this argument. Sure, Kent is playing extremely well right now, but so is Biggio to a little lesser extent. And he's making nearly $5 million less.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
We're 11 games removed from being one game away from the World Series. I'm sorry if that's not enough time for me to come to the conclusion that we're not "keeping up with the Joneses".


EXACTLY, EXACTLY, EXACTLY.

we lost Beltran and Kent

we gained Pettitte and a full season from Lidge...if you want to subtract Lidge from that equation, fine.

but what if Lane ends up with power numbers similar to Kent's last season? does that change the equation for you? we're looking at a team right now whose best hitter is injured...and they're around .500 after 11 games. 11 freaking games.

what RM95 and I...and many others...have been saying is just chill out. give it time. don't come in here after the third series of the season to say, "aha!!! see I was right all along!! this team sucks!!!"

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
We're 11 games removed from being one game away from the World Series.

Cmon RM....you know that statement, while correct in context, doesnt really describe the "state of the union" so to speak

The vast majority of MLB teams do it the same way the Astros do.

and a vast majority of the teams dont make the playoffs...nor do i care about the vast majority of teams

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
That's the most maddening part of this argument. Sure, Kent is playing extremely well right now, but so is Biggio to a little lesser extent. And he's making nearly $5 million less.

granted we are arguing about this in a Jeff kent thread so it may appear that i am pissed about the Bidge over kent decision....but i dont have such a problem with Bidge...I have a problem with getting rid of kent and not replacing the offense

[SamCassell]

Originally posted by MadMax
what RM95 and I...and many others...have been saying is just chill out. give it time. don't come in here after the third series of the season to say, "aha!!! see I was right all along!! this team sucks!!!"
NJ has been saying since the offseason that he was displeased with the moves being made. In the offseason, your response was "The offseason's not even finished yet! Wait until it's over before you judge. We don't know what's in store." Now, he's making the same comments he's made for months, with the regular season underway, and you tell him he should chill out and wait to see what develops. My question is, at what point is it OK for him as a fan to comment on his thoughts about the lineup and our postseason prospects?

[MadMax]

Originally posted by SamCassell
NJ has been saying since the offseason that he was displeased with the moves being made. In the offseason, your response was "The offseason's not even finished yet! Wait until it's over before you judge. We don't know what's in store." Now, he's making the same comments he's made for months, with the regular season underway, and you tell him he should chill out and wait to see what develops. My question is, at what point is it OK for him as a fan to comment on his thoughts about the lineup and our postseason prospects?

very fair criticism. and i'm aware of it.

my point is that Lane seems to be giving us, so far anyway (very limited sample size) what we got from Kent last season...but now we have better defense in both LF and 2B.

i think this team can compete. you never know for sure in baseball, but i think they can compete. i will hold out hope until they're eliminated, because that's just me. but i realize other people will fall off earlier if they don't produce.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by SamCassell
NJ has been saying since the offseason that he was displeased with the moves being made. In the offseason, your response was "The offseason's not even finished yet! Wait until it's over before you judge. We don't know what's in store." Now, he's making the same comments he's made for months, with the regular season underway, and you tell him he should chill out and wait to see what develops. My question is, at what point is it OK for him as a fan to comment on his thoughts about the lineup and our postseason prospects?

Not 11 games into the season.

NJRocket,

Sure, we're not as good as we were last year. I'm not sure we ever had a good chance of being as good, especially when Beltran basically told Taveras before the deadline that he wasn't coming back (see latest SI). While you were upset at our offseason and the lineup we're putting out there everyday, some of us believe that if we weren't going to resign Beltran, the best course of action for our future (which includes more than this season) was to go the young route. It hasn't proven to be a disaster yet either. Four of our six losses have been by one run (to be fair, two of our five wins have been by one run as well) and we're only a couple of weeks away from getting our best offensive player back. In the meantime, Clemens is showing no drop off and Backe is pitching very well. Oswalt is Oswalt and Pettitte is coming back very nicely. If we can stay in the race until June, there's a good chance that McLane and Pupura will bring in another bat or whatever it is we need.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by MadMax
very fair criticism. and i'm aware of it.

my point is that Lane seems to be giving us, so far anyway (very limited sample size) what we got from Kent last season...but now we have better defense in both LF and 2B.

.

The thing is (or one of the things anyway) that, while Lane is on pace for herculean numbers....and Clemens pitching as well or better than he did to start off last year....and Pettitte looking like the Andy of old (maybe better)...we, as a team, are still not looking great.

PS- well said Sam...thx

[SamCassell]

Originally posted by MadMax
my point is that Lane seems to be giving us, so far anyway (very limited sample size) what we got from Kent last season...but now we have better defense in both LF and 2B.
I don't know that Biggio's been a big improvement over Kent defensively, but I acknowledge your point. I've been a proponent of Jason Lane literally for years, and I think he can produce in LF at a level not too far below what Kent did at 2B last year. LF is supposed to be quite a bit better offensive position than 2B, so moving Biggio back from LF to 2B does help in filling in that offensive gap. The power production in CF will be harder to make up for, although I believe eventually Taveras will fill in for much of the defense lost (he's still making some understandable rookie mistakes out there).

[Rocket Fan]

I'm as diehard a fan as anyone.

When I don't like something, I will say it. Things don't ever change if people don't complain.

Heck, in cities like Chicago I'm surprised the owner even puts anyone on the field. Those people would sell out all the games even if he had a 5 million dollar payroll.

Sports are a business, and as customers.. if we don't like the way something is done we can complain about it.

Some of us don't go for the idea that owners lost so much money etc... even if Drayton did lose all the money he claims. the value of the team has gone up dramatically to more than enough cover any losses.

[Rocket Fan]

Just to make it clear.. talking about this in my class and the fact that people often ignore it.. made me feel the need to post it.

Teams say they are losing money, but often times don't talk about the fact that the value of their franchise is going up so rapidly..


1992 - Drayton purchased team for 103 million dollars

Forbes currently values the team at 357 million dollars

So when considering the argument that he hasn't made money off of baseball, I take into account franchise values.

[Rocket Fan]

The last post was posted, not because I just felt the need to talk about Drayton.. but in response to nick saying that none of his net work had to do with baseball

[Groogrux]

Just because it's valued at something a) doesn't mean it will sell for that much and b) doesn't take into account the fact that he hasn't sold it yet.

[Rocket Fan]

Even if it doesn't sell for quite 357 million.. it will sell for more than 103 million.

Sports teams are like an investment, each year they are going up and up in value so that in the end when they are sold.. the owner gets far more than he paid for it.

Each year the team is worth more and more. Although the owner doesn't see the profit each year, I'm sure they are quite aware of the payoff they will get when they do decide to sell the team eventually.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Just because it's valued at something a) doesn't mean it will sell for that much and b) doesn't take into account the fact that he hasn't sold it yet.

but it does take into account that he can take equity out of the team if he wanted (and maybe he does)....sort of like a refinance on a house.

[Rocket Fan]

I mainly just don't like the term mid market team.

We are worth the 11th most of any team. So while technically if you count 10th - 20th team as mid market.. then we are mid market...

We are pretty dang close to being "upper third".. which sounds vastly different.

[Groogrux]

And we have the 12th largest (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/3530368) payroll.

[Rocket Fan]

but often times by the way people talk.. you would think that he is doing us a favor..

like he was doing us a favor by increasing payroll etc because we are a "mid market team".. when in reality, I think we should always have a payroll that's top 11 or so.

My point is he isn't doing us any "favors".. owning a team is big money. it's not charity work that the fans should be happy with whatever.

[Groogrux]

No, the way people talk about him, you'd think he gutted the team, never did anything to try to improve the team, and made us a cellar dwelling team for the duration of his ownership tenure. That, and raped your grandmother.

I'm just trying to defend a man who by all accounts has been a good owner. I don't think he's a god or anything. My eagerness to defend him is triggered by the five posters who want to call him McLame and refuse to see any good that he has done here.

EDIT: That wasn't very clear...I meant for every one person defending McLane, there are five posters who bash him.

[Nick]

I'm thankful that we have such great debates in here... w/out you guys, we'd just be "another ho-hum team".

What do the Reds fans argue about? What about Diamondback fans? They've both seem to make "efforts" to make their teams better, and they really aren't all that great. How about the Phillies... if you were a fan of them, would you really think there'd be a viable shot at the playoffs with such a stud division, where they might not even be as good as the Mets of all teams.

I know it shouldn't matter what goes on in other cities or other teams, but I guess I'm thankful that even in times where it seems like this team shouldn't contend... there is still a ton of hope, a ton of debate, and passion that has been developed because of this team's recent PAST. (you can live in a "what have you done for me lately" world NJ... but if the Astros had sucked the last 6 years, there's a good chance you're not going to be buying season tickets for them, posting passionate posts on this board, or even mustering the strength to criticize them).

Now, for the daily Astros fan affirmation (reasons to stay positive so far this season):

1. Oswalt, Pettite, Clemens, Backe - do you guys realize that at no point last year (even the beginning of the season, since Pettite was injured so early) did we have a starting 4 that has put together this many consecutive quality starts? The pitching which was supposed to carry us to the WS last year before we had even hit April is better than it ever was.

2. Jason Lane - He's aggressive with anything in the zone, he's hit to all fields, and he's been the one hitter who hasn't really looked bad at any time this year. A Berkman-Lane combo could rule this team's power for awhile.

3. Lights out Lidge - He could have stumbled out of the gate like some other closers, but he's looked just as dominant as he was to end the playoffs. No earned runs yet.

4. one run games - Don't discount the ability of this team to be competitive in all the games this year. Even though they've come on the short end of most of them, that doesn't breed the losers mentality that some of the other teams who just came off a 1-5 road trip may have. They know they SHOULD have won all 3 games in NY, and 2 out of 3 in Cincy.

5. Nobody has run away with this division yet - I still remember 2000, when it seemed like the Cardinals had already won the division by the second week of the season. People were telling me to give it time, its a long season, the Astros are the defending division champs and they'll start playing great in Enron soon, blah blah blah. Alas, St. Louis ran away with the division, and the Astros had one of their worst year's ever. You're not seeing any of that so far... so there's still plenty of chances and plenty of hope.

[Rocket Fan]

rocketman95.. I agree that Drayton has overall been a good owner.

Just like you don't the perception that he has been a bad owner, I don't like the perception that he has done us all a big favor.

My point is, he is a smart businessman.. just like other smart businessmen.

smart businessmen don't usually buy things that they know will lose them cash.

[Rocket Fan]

When I'm watching the games. I cheer like no one else.

I like that Houston fans push the owner to make sure he stays on top of things.

Houston fans pushing for Roger signing and resigning I think helped.

I think teams benefit most from fans who demand the very best. If the fans are tough on the owner, he knows he has to perform at his very best to ensure the fans keep coming back.

[Nick]

Once again, all the Drayton bashers, name an owner who has had a better more consistent run of success, not named Steinbrenner.

Or name one who is immune to criticisms of not re-signing players to save money, caring a lot about the bottom line, etc. If you're not a Yankees fan, and you're stil a MLB fan, there's a good chance that you would be complaining no matter what team you were rooting for.

We see it because we're in Houston, but you'd also see it in St. Louis, Chicago, Phoenix, Anaheim, Seattle, Dallas, San Francisco, and the rest of the "mid"-market teams.

btw... "mid" market just basically means "not Yankees or Red Sox" now... that's about it.

[NJRocket]

speaking of lance.....anyone have an updated ETA?

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
Just like you don't the perception that he has been a bad owner, I don't like the perception that he has done us all a big favor.


Of course, my perception isn't perception. Look back at this thread where people are calling him a liar and what not. I don't see anyone saying he's done us a big favor or anything.

[Rocket Fan]

rocketman95.


I certainly have never called him a liar.

Maybe he did lose money for years, but I do think that value of the team etc should be looked at in response to statements like nick made about the fact that none of his net worth has to do with the team.

[VesceySux]

Top Payrolls and W/L Records So Far:

1. Yankees: 4-8
2. Red Sox: 7-5
3. Mets: 6-6
4. Phillies: 6-6
5. Angels: 6-6
6. Cardinals: 6-4
7. Giants: 6-5
8. Cubs: 6-6
9. Mariners: 6-6
10. Braves: 6-6
11. Dodgers: 9-2
12. Astros: 5-6

2/3 of the top 12 payroll teams are .500 or less. Please stop whining.

[SamCassell]

Owners get too much credit for Ws, and too much blame for Ls. The most important thing an owner can do is give his GM a budget that allows him enough flexibility to stay competitive, and then get out of the way. My only complaint about Drayton is his self-aggrandizing manner of interjecting himself into certain contract negotiations, like Steinbrenner. He does a good job otherwise. He's involved himself in the process much more than typical owners do.

[Rocket Fan]

Most of the people saying things about the roster are not basing it on two weeks. They are just repeating what they said all summer.

I have said all along, that I think in the end we may be able to contend for a playoff spot, but I do think we lost a lot more than we gained during the offseason.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
rocketman95.


I certainly have never called him a liar.

I know you haven't, but people have. In this thread someone has called him a snake. I haven't seen anyone say that McLane's done us a huge favor by being our owner. The closest has been saying he's been better than any other owner the Astros have ever had in our lifetime, which is true.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
but I do think we lost a lot more than we gained during the offseason.


all while most of last years teams we competed with for the playoffs gained more than they lost (except perhaps the Cubs)

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by NJRocket
all while most of last years teams we competed with for the playoffs gained more than they lost (except perhaps the Cubs)

Then why do we play the games?

Let's go straight to the playoffs.

[Nick]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
Maybe he did lose money for years, but I do think that value of the team etc should be looked at in response to statements like nick made about the fact that none of his net worth has to do with the team.

Let me clarify that... I was refuting the opinion that since Drayton is the "richest owner in baseball" he should be spending much more than he is, and should be a big player.

I was merely saying that Drayton's vast "richness" over other owners is not due to baseball. If you only look at baseball "wealth" its George Steinbrenner, and then everybody else... George doesn't pay one cent of his own personal wealth on his team... its all based on revenues from his TV deal and attendance.

[Rocket Fan]

nick.. no problem with that statement...

My personal viewpoint is that an owner can't be expected to spend money from other businesses he owns etc..

So it all comes down to how much he makes from the actual baseball team.. and side dealing that have to do with it..

For instance, some teams buy their own tv stations.. and although the money isn't directly from the baseball team.. its from a tv station that is only there because of the baseball team.. some times big money is made by other businesses that are profitable because they own the baseball team. i dont think this is true in our case since he doesn't own a tv station etc though.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Then why do we play the games?

Let's go straight to the playoffs.

dont be sarcastic....i am merely pointing out that of all the playoff-race teams, we gained the least, or lost the most (or both in some cases)...you have to be blind not to see the position we are in.

the offense will get better when berkman comes back...i recognize that...but i said from day 1 that what transpired this offseason (or didnt transpire) will cause us to struggle big time to make the playoffs..and i havent seen anything other than the good pitching (which i knew we had when i made the assessment) to make me think differently


That being said.....hopefully we sweep the short series with Atlanta and get back some confidence

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by NJRocket
dont be sarcastic....

Heed your own advice Mr. Plan B Man.

I understand the situation we're in. I just prefer to be optimistic about things. If every season went the way everyone thought they would, they wouldn't play the games. It just gets so annoying to come in here everyday and see all you gloom and doomers whining about the same thing every single day. It's tiring and sad.

[pgabriel]

I don't have a problem with Drayton's overall budgett. I have a problem with some of his individual decisions that are based more on sentimentality than the best baseball decisions. There is no reason not to excercise the option on Kent's contract other than to insure Biggio's regularity in the lineup. Even if he was trying to save money to sign Beltran it doesn't make sense. It was one more year.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by pgabriel
I don't have a problem with Drayton's overall budgett. I have a problem with some of his individual decisions that are based more on sentimentality than the best baseball decisions. There is no reason not to excercise the option on Kent's contract other than to insure Biggio's regularity in the lineup. Even if he was trying to save money to sign Beltran it doesn't make sense. It was one more year.

Kent's option was one more year at $9,000,000 vs. $700,000 buyout. That's not an option you immediately snap up. They declined the option and attempted to resign him for a lesser amount. The Dodgers stepped up with a $7,000,000+ offer and trumped any thoughts of Kent resigning.

It makes a lot of sense with respect to saving money for a run at Beltran. Essentially it enabled them to offer Beltran an additional $1,000,000+ per year over the terms of a 7 year deal.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by bobrek
Kent's option was one more year at $9,000,000 vs. $700,000 buyout. That's not an option you immediately snap up. They declined the option and attempted to resign him for a lesser amount. The Dodgers stepped up with a $7,000,000+ offer and trumped any thoughts of Kent resigning.

It makes a lot of sense with respect to saving money for a run at Beltran. Essentially it enabled them to offer Beltran an additional $1,000,000+ per year over the terms of a 7 year deal.

Not to mention that the guy who's currently playing Kent's spot isn't exactly sucking it up. For about $4 million less per year. Loyalty or not, that's not bad. Kent's stats are currently better, but not $4 million a year better.

Of course, if we resigned Kent, Biggio would probably be in LF, but then people would just complain about what a crappy OFer he is.

[pgabriel]

Originally posted by bobrek


It makes a lot of sense with respect to saving money for a run at Beltran. Essentially it enabled them to offer Beltran an additional $1,000,000+ per year over the terms of a 7 year deal.

Its irrelevant in terms of signing Beltran. $1M a year wasn't going to make or break the Beltran deal.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by pgabriel
Its irrelevant in terms of signing Beltran. $1M a year wasn't going to make or break the Beltran deal.

So are you saying that if the Astros had offered $1,000,000 per year MORE than the Mets, he would have still signed with the Mets?

[SamCassell]

Originally posted by bobrek
So are you saying that if the Astros had offered $1,000,000 per year MORE than the Mets, he would have still signed with the Mets?
Do you really think that the Mets were going to get outbid? Their final contract price was an increase on their already highest-paying offer.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by SamCassell
Do you really think that the Mets were going to get outbid? Their final contract price was an increase on their already highest-paying offer.

Probably not, but that wasn't my question. pgabriel said that $1,000,000/year wouldn't make or break any Beltran deal. My contention is that it would. I believe had any number of teams offered $1,000,000/year more than the Mets, that's where Beltran would have gone. In his own words "It's a business".

[Rocket Fan]

I say you take the option..

They were going to pay him 7 million. plus the 700k buyout right?

so it's 7.7 mil and an option for another year.. vs just giving him 9.0 mil for one year?

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Nick
Let me clarify that... I was refuting the opinion that since Drayton is the "richest owner in baseball" he should be spending much more than he is, and should be a big player.

I was merely saying that Drayton's vast "richness" over other owners is not due to baseball. If you only look at baseball "wealth" its George Steinbrenner, and then everybody else... George doesn't pay one cent of his own personal wealth on his team... its all based on revenues from his TV deal and attendance.

are you aware of ANY owner that spends outside of his baseball revenues? i realize that would be hard to show..but i wonder if any admits to doing that. maybe colangello, but he ran up debt doing it, right?

[msn]

Originally posted by MadMax
are you aware of ANY owner that spends outside of his baseball revenues? i realize that would be hard to show..but i wonder if any admits to doing that. maybe colangello, but he ran up debt doing it, right?
I would postulate that no owner, absolutely none, does that. But it would be hard to demonstrate or disprove. It just makes absolutely no business sense to do so.

[SamCassell]

Originally posted by msn
I would postulate that no owner, absolutely none, does that. But it would be hard to demonstrate or disprove. It just makes absolutely no business sense to do so.
Every owner who claims a net loss on the season (many owners do so) is, be definition, spending outside his revenues. So McLane was spending outside his baseball revenue when the Stros played in the Dome, according to his own account.

And extra spending does make sense if there's a projected long-term payoff, such as increased playoff revenue or increased ticket sales / TV deal / marketing in the future with a winning ballclub. And then again, to alot of owners a sports club is an expensive toy, and they want to win.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by SamCassell
Every owner who claims a net loss on the season (many owners do so) is, be definition, spending outside his revenues. So McLane was spending outside his baseball revenue when the Stros played in the Dome, according to his own account.

And extra spending does make sense if there's a projected long-term payoff, such as increased playoff revenue or increased ticket sales / TV deal / marketing in the future with a winning ballclub. And then again, to alot of owners a sports club is an expensive toy, and they want to win.

1. not necessarily. one can spend more than one takes in without borrowing from another stream of revenues to do so....you get that financed elsewhere. i don't know how he handles that, personally.

2. there are very, very few owners in pro sports today that still treat these things as toys without consideration to revenues and expenses...particularly few in baseball. and, not coincidentally, the free-spenders are the ones with the largest revenue streams.

[SamCassell]

Originally posted by MadMax
1. not necessarily. one can spend more than one takes in without borrowing from another stream of revenues to do so....you get that financed elsewhere. i don't know how he handles that, personally.
Maybe it's late in the day, maybe it's the legal research I'm doing, maybe it's because it's a Monday, but how exactly is 'getting it financed elsewhere' any different from 'spending outside baseball revenues'? If you get a loan and spend the money, that's spending money other than your income. I don't understand the nuance as to what difference it makes whether he's spending his own, non-baseball revenue or borrowing from some other source. Both are "spending outside of baseball revenues", to use your phrase.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by SamCassell
Maybe it's late in the day, maybe it's the legal research I'm doing, maybe it's because it's a Monday, but how exactly is 'getting it financed elsewhere' any different from 'spending outside baseball revenues'? If you get a loan and spend the money, that's spending money other than your income. I don't understand the nuance as to what difference it makes whether he's spending his own, non-baseball revenue or borrowing from some other source. Both are "spending outside of baseball revenues", to use your phrase.

what are you, a lawyer? :)

i meant that his value in other fields of business is not related. that he may be taking out loans to meet obligations for his team...but not borrowing from other revenue streams he has elsewhere. make sense??

[Rocket Fan]

The problem of course is I doubt claims by owners that they are losing money.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
The problem of course is I doubt claims by owners that they are losing money.

you doubt that sports owners lose money on their franchises?? do you mean that you doubt their revenues are lower than their expenses...or do you mean you doubt it because it doesn't factor in the increasing value of the underlying asset?

[Rocket Fan]

madmax.. I don't know if its from taking a sports econ class with a very respected sports economist or my personal bias. but I am very reluctant to believe in general that owners are losing money.

Businessmen don't operate that way, and I believe very few treat them as toys.

In most cases, I believe the revenue does exceed the expenses. But even if it didn't the thing we focused on in class etc is the fact that the franchise values are going up so much.. so they are "investing" in a team, which will get them a high return at a later date.

It's pretty easy to make it look like your expenses are higher, but they don't tell the whole story.

For instance, the Yankees could easily show they are losing money on their team. But on the other hand, they have an entire tv station that is making profits, that wouldn't be there without the team. In other words, often times having a sports teams allow an owner to operate another businesss where you can put profits, and it looks like you are losing money when really you are gaining a lot off of the side business you open.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
madmax.. I don't know if its from taking a sports econ class with a very respected sports economist or my personal bias. but I am very reluctant to believe in general that owners are losing money.

Businessmen don't operate that way, and I believe very few treat them as toys.

In most cases, I believe the revenue does exceed the expenses. But even if it didn't the thing we focused on in class etc is the fact that the franchise values are going up so much.. so they are "investing" in a team, which will get them a high return at a later date.

It's pretty easy to make it look like your expenses are higher, but they don't tell the whole story.

For instance, the Yankees could easily show they are losing money on their team. But on the other hand, they have an entire tv station that is making profits, that wouldn't be there without the team. In other words, often times having a sports teams allow an owner to operate another businesss where you can put profits, and it looks like you are losing money when really you are gaining a lot off of the side business you open.

I took some sports economic classes as well...and a sports law class in law school. And I'm not convinced. It is different from sport to sport, for sure. I'm not asserting that NFL teams, which share revenues like crazy, are losing money. I'm less likely to say it about NBA teams as well. But in baseball...I'm more likely to see the problem and say it.

There is almost no doubt in my mind that the Astros were not a profitable busienss when they were in the Dome. Hell, they were in freaking receivership for a while. As the Astros raised payroll in the late 90's, I don't believe those were offset by rising revenues.

I think these "businessmen" get in over their head. They make some money and see this as an opportunity for lots of different reasons...fun is among those reasons. Fame is as well. Most of these guys have tremendous egos. There was a time when, I think, most (or at least many) owners did not expect revenues to meet expenses. It was definitely a toy. That time has seen its day, I think, for the most part.

The Yankees would have to reach big time to show that they are losing money. The media deal is so integral to the team that everyone who considers value of a franchise takes that into consideration. In NY, in particular, it's paramount.

I don't think the Astros are worth $350 million or whatever Forbes said, because I don't think they'd sell for that right now. And while I agree that the appreciation in value of the franchise is not taken into consideration, it's not of much concern to the guy who is making less per year than he's taking in. And ultimately, those two things are not independent of each other. If you can show revenues aren't meeting expenses, you're going to have a helluva time getting an optimum value of your franchise when it comes time to sell. And if the entire value of your asset isn't realized until it's sold, that takes off a lot of the allure as well.

[msn]

Originally posted by MadMax
i meant that his value in other fields of business is not related.
Exactly. McLane does not use his grocery business (I know he sold it, but I don't know his current business) to finance the Astros' payroll, nor he should be expected to. That is business suicide.

[Rocket Fan]

I'm much more likely to believe NHL teams, when they say they are losing money. Just because their willingness to lockout for an entire year, makes me think they aren't earning much profit.

If the Astros did lose money in the dome it was because they knew they'd make more money now. I certainly can't believe they are losing money now.

If teams were losing this much money, I think they'd open the books..

Interestingly enough, I've also come to doubt the economic impact of a superbowl on a city:)