Garner's comments

[NJRocket]

Minutes after the Mets completed a three-game sweep, Astros manager Phil Garner grabbed the scouting report he had on the Mets, ripped it and tossed it in the trash can.

"You don't need this," Garner said, "because you can't defense dribblers."

He is right....you can't defense them....but unfortunately, that dribbler last night...and the bloops in the previous games, were/are not the reason we lost. We lost because we have ZERO offense....ZERO. Perhaps Garner realizes this and he is just as frustrated as we (the fans) are....but can't do a damn thing about it. You "homers" still excited about seeing the young guys play? Still think pitching will get us to the playoffs? Good pitching will win playoff series.... but we probably won't get a chance to see that.:mad:

[SamCassell]

This team isn't as bad as they were in the Mets series, and not as good as they were the first two series. This is a middle-of-the-pack team with 4 good starters, a great closer, and an offense that is very poor without Berkman and very well could be below average with him. I don't know that the offense is strong enough this year to carry defense-only players like Everett and Ausmus. I don't know who we'd replace them with though, at this point. We'll see how it goes I guess.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by SamCassell
I don't know that the offense is strong enough this year to carry defense-only players like Everett and Ausmus.

which brings us back to the offseason when Renteria, Cabrera, and Eckstein were all available

[MadMax]

Originally posted by NJRocket
which brings us back to the offseason when Renteria, Cabrera, and Eckstein were all available

NJ, you're not helping your cause. Where were you last week after the Reds sweep? Are you seriously coming on here in early April after one series and after an even 4-4 start after 8 games to call people out?? Ridiculous.

[SamCassell]

Renteria would have been a nice signing. Varitek was a FA, too. Both got big money though, I don't think we would have been willing to pony up that kinda cash.

The thing is, the knock on Everett in the minors was that he was an incredible fielder who couldn't hit. It's not like he's regressed, he's the same guy he's always been. I really like his fielding, but I have no illusions that he'll suddenly become, at age 28, a good hitter.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by MadMax
NJ, you're not helping your cause. Where were you last week after the Reds sweep? .

i was right here complaining how bad of a hitter Everett is....and i have been preaching that we should have gone after other guys for months to improve our lineup...dont make it like i just came here out of the woodwork and i am all of a sudden

we have the LOWEST amount of runs scored in the league

[Nick]

We do have an awful offense right now... yet we are 4-4, and probably should have been better if not for some of the awful/lucky plays that all went the Mets way.

95% of that is due to the stellar pitching we've had so far.

If anything, this start merely proves again how much more important pitching is than hitting. We've had the lead in every ballgame except the first one, and while the entire offense hasn't come around yet, I've seen enough from Lane and Tavares to have me content that they can be productive, especially once Berkman comes back.

If they continue to hit like this for the whole season, however, then yes... they won't be going anywhere. But, just like everybody was too early to jump on the bandwagon last week after the sweep, its still too early to jump off after this series... where we should have won all three of these games.

I'm reserving judgement on the offense till both Berkman comes back, and the weather gets better ... plus, this team is just perpetuating what they've done the last 6 years... whether they're hot or cold, they're either ALL hot or ALL cold.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Nick
. yet we are 4-4, and probably should have been better if not for some of the awful/lucky plays that all went the Mets way.



or worse had we not gotten a 2 run infield hit by our pitcher

I'm reserving judgement on the offense till both Berkman comes back, and the weather gets better

berkman....yes......the weather??????:confused: you gotta be kidding

[The Real Shady]

The only problem with Everett is that he is batting leadoff in our lineup. Move him to the bottom of the order and give him some time. He batted .270 last year and he has steadily improved with the bat ever year he's been in the majors.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by NJRocket
i was right here complaining how bad of a hitter Everett is....and i have been preaching that we should have gone after other guys for months to improve our lineup...dont make it like i just came here out of the woodwork and i am all of a sudden

we have the LOWEST amount of runs scored in the league

and you made comments all offseason that we'd suck. you use one series in early April to plant your flag and declare victory on that.

imagine how much you would have basted me if i had done the same for my opinion of this team immediately after the Reds series. it would be ridiculous to do that.

[Nick]

Originally posted by NJRocket
or worse had we not gotten a 2 run infield hit by our pitcher



berkman....yes......the weather??????:confused: you gotta be kidding

See... good pitching helps! :D

And yes... the weather. Our guys aren't going to hit longballs in cold 50 degree weather... actually, nobody is (the Mets didn't have any either).

There were 6 shots to left in the last two games by Biggio, Ensberg, Lane and even Tavares that would have been easy HR's in MMP.

The bottom line is that this team seems like they haven't played well at all... and yet they are 4-4. No team stays down offensively forever... not even the Royals or the Pirates. However, pitching will be the difference maker. If they ever lose that, they'll be in much more trouble.

Also, I expect this team to be a much better home team... no reasoning, just a hunch I had going into the Mets series.

[rrj_gamz]

You can't base the potential of a post season on 1 the 3rd freakin' series of the season...:rolleyes:

Seriously, we weren't dominant, but we didn't stink up the joint either...Do we have great starting pitching, sure, but without the bats, we're stuck like chuck...anyway, I think its still a good idea to have our current team play and hopefully Berkman will provide us with the offensive HR power we desperately need...

[Saint Louis]

Everett isn't a leadoff hitter, he should be hitting either 2nd (where he can move runners over) or 8th.

Ausmus shouldn't be hitting at all, which he isn't, but since DH'ing isn't an option 7th or 8th in the lineup.

For better or for worse, Taveras should start leading off.

Biggio should either stay in the two hole or move back to three and let Bagwell hit cleanup until Berkman returns.

I'd rather start the season with a solid starting rotation, closer and a weak offensense then start off with no pitching and a great offensive club. It is a lot easier for the bats to show up later then try and find pitching.

[Nick]

BTW... NJ... the "kids" are not exactly the problem in the lineup right now.

Scott went 3-4 yesterday, and probably should have gotten more than the 1 RBI had Baggy not slowed up at 3rd in the 1st inning. Taveras, while his average wasn't too hot, was all over the basepaths yesterday... making a huge difference w/out the benefit of a hit.

Everett and Ausmus have been horrible... I still think Everett can get back to where he was before he got hurt (not at leadoff, however)... but Ausmus may be close to being 'done'. The fact that he's tried a new stance/swing almost every year, and he seems to be getting worse, probably lends to the fact that he has absolutely NO confidence right now, whatsoever.

As I said before the season, the difference-makers in this offense were going to be the production of Ensberg and Lane. Each has the capability to have a monster season with the bat... but, since they've never done that before, it will always be suspect until they actually acheive something.

[SamCassell]

Originally posted by Nick
BTW... NJ... the "kids" are not exactly the problem in the lineup right now.
I actually agree with Nick on a baseball post. :) Everett and Ausmus are the problem so far. Tavares has been outstanding, I really like what I've seen from the kid. Luke Scott is still a question mark, especially since we need some power from LF. He had a good day yesterday. Ensberg and Lane are "potential" guys who are too old to be prospects and are thus facing make-or-break years, at 28+ you've got to produce or get off the field. So far so good.

[leroy420]

I would have to be considered one of NJRocket's "homers." We are not doomed. I do think it is already time for some tinkering. Everett is not a leadoff hitter. Ensberg is not a cleanup hitter. I would like to see Taveras get a shot at leadoff. Biggio is doing too well at #2 to move him. Move Lane to #4, Scott to 5 and Ensberg 6th. When Burke starts in LF, move Ensberg back up to 5 and Burke 6th. Everett should be 7th or 8th. Ausmus, well, Ausmus is Ausmus. Unfortunately, we don't have many better options. Maybe Quintero is slightly a better hitter than Ausmus and Chavez. Who knows? Either way, the catcher should be 8th.

We've played 4.9% of the games so far. There is a lot that can and will happen between now and the time to make actual judgements.


BTW...I was a little disappointed to hear that it will be Duckworth and not Astacio starting on Sunday. That is by no means permanent, but I would have like to see Astacio or even Wandy Rodriguez given a shot. Depending on what happens on Sunday, that might be possible next week.

[msn]

Bitching when they lose, silent when they win, calling people "homers" who choose to be optimistic, frantic emoticons...

Standard MO for whiners. Nothing to see here.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by msn
Bitching when they lose, silent when they win, calling people "homers" who choose to be optimistic, frantic emoticons...

Standard MO for whiners. Nothing to see here.

I wasn't silent when we won...but if it makes you feel better to say so, then by all means...:rolleyes:

[MadMax]

Originally posted by NJRocket
I wasn't silent when we won...but if it makes you feel better to say so, then by all means...:rolleyes:

were you using that Reds series to say, "hey..looks like i was wrong...we can win in spite of our weaknesses??" i don't recall reading that. why is the Mets series more significant than the Reds series? what about it allows you to extrapolate out to support your contentions for this team for the entire season more so than the Reds series does?

[bobrek]

Originally posted by NJRocket
which brings us back to the offseason when Renteria, Cabrera, and Eckstein were all available

So, you intend to give up on Everett after the 2004 season (with his .273 average)? His average was just as good the past 2 years as Eckstein and I would venture to say Everett is a better fielder. Eckstein makes 7x what Everett does.

Cabrera signed for 6 (~ 13x Everett) million and Renteria signed for 8 million (~19x Everett). Why would either of these two guys even consider signing with a team that has a young starting SS who has done well in the field and has been an adequate hitter?

Also, in addition to those 3 shortstops, you also mentioned that Drew, Finely and Dye would be nice additions. 8 or so games into the season we have the following:

Drew - 9.4 million, .125 average
Finley - 6 million, .176 average
Dye - 4 million, .194 average

I suspect those 3 will hit better as the season progresses, just as I expect Everett to settle in at .260 - .270.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by bobrek
So, you intend to give up on Everett after the 2004 season (with his .273 average)? His average was just as good the past 2 years as Eckstein and I would venture to say Everett is a better fielder. Eckstein makes 7x what Everett does.

Cabrera signed for 6 (~ 13x Everett) million and Renteria signed for 8 million (~19x Everett). Why would either of these two guys even consider signing with a team that has a young starting SS who has done well in the field and has been an adequate hitter?

Also, in addition to those 3 shortstops, you also mentioned that Drew, Finely and Dye would be nice additions. 8 or so games into the season we have the following:

Drew - 9.4 million, .125 average
Finley - 6 million, .176 average
Dye - 4 million, .194 average

I suspect those 3 will hit better as the season progresses, just as I expect Everett to settle in at .260 - .270.


and Kent is hitting over 400 and Beltran over 300......what is my point? My point is that we should have spent money stregthening our lineup....which is the most anemic in the league right now

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bobrek
So, you intend to give up on Everett after the 2004 season (with his .273 average)? His average was just as good the past 2 years as Eckstein and I would venture to say Everett is a better fielder. Eckstein makes 7x what Everett does.

Cabrera signed for 6 (~ 13x Everett) million and Renteria signed for 8 million (~19x Everett). Why would either of these two guys even consider signing with a team that has a young starting SS who has done well in the field and has been an adequate hitter?

Also, in addition to those 3 shortstops, you also mentioned that Drew, Finely and Dye would be nice additions. 8 or so games into the season we have the following:

Drew - 9.4 million, .125 average
Finley - 6 million, .176 average
Dye - 4 million, .194 average

I suspect those 3 will hit better as the season progresses, just as I expect Everett to settle in at .260 - .270.

DOWN GOES FRASIER!
DOWN GOES FRASIER!
DOWN GOES FRASIER!

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by MadMax
were you using that Reds series to say, "hey..looks like i was wrong...we can win in spite of our weaknesses??" i don't recall reading that. why is the Mets series more significant than the Reds series? what about it allows you to extrapolate out to support your contentions for this team for the entire season more so than the Reds series does?

While I'm thrilled to be 4-2, I cant help but think that yesterday's game was a microcosm of things to come this season.

doesnt exactly look like i was thrilled with the way we had played when we were 4-2 does it Frazier?

[msn]

At another forum I like to read, I saw the following rules posting:

1. No whining.
2. EVER

[bobrek]

Originally posted by NJRocket
and Kent is hitting over 400 and Beltran over 300......what is my point? My point is that we should have spent money stregthening our lineup....which is the most anemic in the league right now

And the Astros sucked through much of the season last year. So what. We are 8 games into the season. Berkman has yet to pick up a bat. The team is 3rd in the NL in ERA. The supposed real weakness of the team (bullpen) is also 3rd in the league in ERA.

You have to give the team some time to settle in, make some decisions and not have knee-jerk reactions to a season that is one week old. Incidentally, the Pirates are more anemic in terms of runs scored .

As anemic as the offense is, the Astros are in the top half of the league in average(6th), slugging(6th), OPS(5th) and OBP(4th). They are getting the runners, they just aren't driving them in.

EDIT

Forgot to mention - they lead the league in stolen bases.

[RIET]

Are people denying that our offense is very suspect?

Crazy.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by RIET
Are people denying that our offense is very suspect?

Crazy.

Of course the offense is suspect right now. They are starting two players who have not played past AA, the occasionally start a AAA all star second baseman in LF. They are missing a .300, 30, 100 bat. (They also have higher team stats (except for runs scored) then the Cardinals. On 04/15 - so what?

[Rocket Fan]

We'll see what happens...but it took a miracle to even make the playoffs last year.. yes we did okay once we got in them. but it took a miracle to even make them. . and we lost leading RBI guy and Beltran.. so that's why all the worries about the offense..

I was also worried about relief pitching during last years playoffs and am still worried about it.

Yes, I'll still complain about Kent because I wish we had kept him in the first place.. we did have the choice.. we had his option.

If we get trashed if we blame anything on the team.. can the other side admit that we did NOTHING this offseason. NOTHING...

if we don't make playoffs.. can I blame the organization. because they did NOTHING

[Nick]

Originally posted by RIET
Are people denying that our offense is very suspect?

Crazy.

Is our offense the best? No.

Is our offense the worst? No.

Is our overall offense as bad as it has been to start the season? No.

If for some reason, this continues, will it lead to our demise? Yes.

Do I think it will continue? No.

Do we need the best offense ever to win? No.

Do we even need last year's level of offense to win (which was not the best). No.

Is it too early to be either a.) be a doomsdayer after 3 losses, or b.) start printing world series tickets after 3 consecutive wins? Yes.

Do we have a better record than some teams with better offense than us right now? Yes.

Do we have a worse record than teams with worse pitching than us right now? No.

Do fans pay more attention to offense rather than defense and pitching? Yes.

Did I ask one too many questions? Yes.

Why can't I stop? I don't know... its very easy to type this way.

:D

[Rocket Fan]

I still think there's a chance we can sneak into the playoffs..

but sometimes its tough to be optimistic when I see us get so close to the world series. and then instead of taking the next step to get to world series .. we just take huge step back..

If the team is really as good as they were the last month of the season last year.. then losing a few players might be okay..

but I doubt they were as good as they were the last month of the season.. so I worry.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
We'll see what happens...but it took a miracle to even make the playoffs last year.. yes we did okay once we got in them. but it took a miracle to even make them. . and we lost leading RBI guy and Beltran.. so that's why all the worries about the offense..

I was also worried about relief pitching during last years playoffs and am still worried about it.

Yes, I'll still complain about Kent because I wish we had kept him in the first place.. we did have the choice.. we had his option.

If we get trashed if we blame anything on the team.. can the other side admit that we did NOTHING this offseason. NOTHING...

if we don't make playoffs.. can I blame the organization. because they did NOTHING

I'll admit right now that the team did nothing (relatively) in the offseason. That doesn't mean it was wrong or right. We have to wait for the season to play itself out.

This isn't basketball. Only 4 teams (25%) make the playoffs unlike the 50% that make it in the NBA. Just because a team doesn't make the playoffs doesn't mean the season was a success.

I'll withhold my opinion for a while yet.

As of now, the clutch hitting is horrible, Everett and Ausmus are horrible and Biggio is playing great (offensively). The defense is adequate but needs to get better and the pitching has been very good, but it's only been ONE WEEK!

[Rocket Fan]

nick.. I'm making any of my comments about the team.. based on what I think of the roster before the season started... (out of town until first week or so of May so can't watch games yet)..

but I agree that it's too early to know for sure about the team.. I'll be curious to see how they are looking. two weeks after berkman gets back or so .

[Nick]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
but I doubt they were as good as they were the last month of the season.. so I worry.

Last year's team was not as good as their 36-10 finish indicated. At the same time, they were not as bad as the team that found themselves 4 games below .500 in July.

In the end, thanks to a long-ass season, everything always evens out... and that's what happened last year. Sure, it was a fluke... but it was also a fluke that they were that bad to begin with to need that fluke.

[Rocket Fan]

bobreak..

Normally it wouldn't even be such a big deal. us doing nothing

it is just so irritating to be for the first time .. that close to a world series... and instead of taking the next step.. doing nothing in the offseason.

[Nick]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
it is just so irritating to be for the first time .. that close to a world series... and instead of taking the next step.. doing nothing in the offseason.

1.) Signed Lance to an extension

2.) Signed Roy to an extension

3.) Promoted Tavares and Scott... two gutsy moves that may pay-off in the end.

4.) Potentially will give Astacio and Wandy some MLB experience... and this will lead to either a promising 5th starter, or potential trade bait to get another hitter.

5.) Got Pettite healthy again.

Doing "nothing" for most people means no trades or FA signings... but there's more to baseball than just that.

But yes... they may have done nothing to improve from last year.... I will admit to that.

[Rocket Fan]

nick.. true, they did underachieve much of last year..

they better not do it again this year though, because they can't expect to have that amazing of an end to a season again.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
bobreak..

Normally it wouldn't even be such a big deal. us doing nothing

it is just so irritating to be for the first time .. that close to a world series... and instead of taking the next step.. doing nothing in the offseason.

The Astros were one win away from a world series in 1980 and (EDIT) 2 in 1986.

[Nick]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
nick.. true, they did underachieve much of last year..

they better not do it again this year though, because they can't expect to have that amazing of an end to a season again.

Agree w/ you totally.

They need to play consistent... so far, their pitching is the only thing that that seems to be constant (and that's no small feat).

Frankly, our starting pitching was never this good over a 7 game stretch throughout last year... we'd always have a hiccup or two, or three (thanks to a Redding, or a Munro).

[RIET]

Originally posted by bobrek
The Astros were one win away from a world series in 1980 and 1986.

We lost to the Mets in 6 games in 1986.

Even with Mike Scott pitching it wasn't a given unless he would have pitched a complete game.

Dave Smith and Charlie Kerfeld choked like a b*tch.

[Rocket Fan]

nick.. heck for me.. even if we kept Kent I'd have been at least somewhat happy. It's not that we didn't get better that I have a problem with, as much as it is that we didn't even stay at the level we were at.

The first 3 are at least debatable, so I'll start with the last one. Andy getting healthy again? We signed him last year, how did we do anything this year? I guess on Purpura's resume when they ask him what he did this summmer he can say he got Andy healthy.

The others, I guess you could classify as doing something.


At the end of last year, I knew Berkman and Roy were going to be an Astros (for at least another year), I guess that's why I don't consider that anything.. being that they were going to be here anyways. But admittedly, resigning them were big moves.

Promoting the minor league guys, I'm not sure if that was gutsy or they were given no choice since they didn't sign anyone or keep what they had.

I'll admit to knowing nothing about Astacio or Wandy, so won't comment on that.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by RIET
We lost to the Mets in 6 games in 1986.

Even with Mike Scott pitching it wasn't a given unless he would have pitched a complete game.

Dave Smith and Charlie Kerfeld choked like a b*tch.

Whoops, I forgot game 6 was for game 7....(of course, we all assumed Scott would win :) )

[Rocket Fan]

bobreak. yeah they were one game away, but last year was more impressive since they actually had to win a series. Technically in the past they could have made the playoffs, and not won a single game. . and still woudl have been closer to the world series than any recent teams..

In other words, every year that they made the playoffs in the old system, they were automatically closer than we had ever been recently.. before last year.

[RIET]

One of our problems has been developing good young power hitters.

Other than Berkman, who has come through our system in the last 5 years?

Scott and Lane are probably good platoon players but nothing more.

[Rocket Fan]

I was born in 83 though so, for me last year was way further than we've ever been :)

[Rocket Fan]

Now that I think about it, you could argue that last year was less impressive since in the old system we wouldn't have even made the playoffs

[Rocket Fan]

To be optimistic, I think if at some point this season we add one more bat.. I'd feel a lot better about this team..

I never expected to keep Beltran anyways, but if we go out and somehow replace Kents bat.. I think we'd be okay this year.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
Promoting the minor league guys, I'm not sure if that was gutsy or they were given no choice since they didn't sign anyone or keep what they had.

.

it was plan B unfortunately

[Rocket Fan]

nj.. I'd hate to see plan C :)

Another reason I'm less optimistic about this year is. at least in the past we knew Gerry knew how to make midseason trades..

Purpura might be able to too, but we just don't know yet how good he is at deadline deals. He could end up being great, we just don't know yet.. so it's hard to judge how likely a midseason deal is for us.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by NJRocket
it was plan B unfortunately

...and 8 games into the season, it looks like a better plan than an outfield of Dye in left, Finley in center and Drew in right, which I assume you would have been satisfied with if it were the Astros "plan B".

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
nj.. I'd hate to see plan C :)

Another reason I'm less optimistic about this year is. at least in the past we knew Gerry knew how to make midseason trades..

Purpura might be able to too, but we just don't know yet how good he is at deadline deals. He could end up being great, we just don't know yet.. so it's hard to judge how likely a midseason deal is for us.

Ive actually posted something similar in the past month or so....I think we will miss Hun a heckuva a lot more than people think. If guys want to say that Purpura is the talent guru and is good at finding kids in the minors etc who can play...then fine...i wouldnt know if he was or wasnt good at that.

I DO know that Hun was a master at pulling off trades...good ones at that....and I guess it remains to be seen whether or not Purpura can do the same.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by NJRocket
Ive actually posted something similar in the past month or so....I think we will miss Hun a heckuva a lot more than people think. If guys want to say that Purpura is the talent guru and is good at finding kids in the minors etc who can play...then fine...i wouldnt know if he was or wasnt good at that.

I DO know that Hun was a master at pulling off trades...good ones at that....and I guess it remains to be seen whether or not Purpura can do the same.

To me, the biggest loss was the loss of Hunsicker. The only "mistake" I think he ever really made was leaving Abreu unprotected in the exapnsion draft and using the excuse that it was between he and Hidalgo. It would be a reasonable mistake to make by choosing Hidalgo over Areu, but i never understood why they couldn't have left both of them protected and exposed someone else? Oh well....

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by bobrek
...and 8 games into the season, it looks like a better plan than an outfield of Dye in left, Finley in center and Drew in right, which I assume you would have been satisfied with if it were the Astros "plan B".

Drew or Finley in the OF over Scott or Burke would have bettered our lineup...period.

And enough with the "8 games into the season " crap.....those of us who were furious about doing nothing in the offseason and plan B being rookies, have said all along that we would have been better off having an actual plan B...and not just a default.

[RIET]

Originally posted by NJRocket
I DO know that Hun was a master at pulling off trades...good ones at that....and I guess it remains to be seen whether or not Purpura can do the same.

Absolutely true. Hunsicker was fantastic.

Other than protecting Johan Santana and Richard Hildago's contract, he was pretty much right on almost every move.

[Fegwu]

Originally posted by bobrek
I suspect those 3 will hit better as the season progresses, just as I expect Everett to settle in at .260 - .270.

Everett will not hit 0.200 if he stays in the leadoff spot. That much I can bet on. Garner is now setting him to fail.

I would have prefered AJ Piertzinski to Brad Outmost ...errr Bad Ausmus...errrr...our catcher. Though AJ is not be all, he at least looks like he can play.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by NJRocket
Drew or Finley in the OF over Scott or Burke would have bettered our lineup...period.

And enough with the "8 games into the season " crap.....those of us who were furious about doing nothing in the offseason and plan B being rookies, have said all along that we would have been better off having an actual plan B...and not just a default.

But you are basing your opinion on assuming that 2005 performance will be relatively close to past performance - correct? That being the case, wouldn't you agree that 8 games into the season is too early to make a determination as to what the proper course of action should have been? Isn't it possible, that whichever outfielder remains predominantly in the starting lineup once Berkman returns (Scott or Taveras) will have a better season than Drew or Finley?

[bobrek]

Originally posted by Fegwu
Everett will not hit 0.200 if he stays in the leadoff spot. That much I can bet on. Garner is now setting him to fail.

I would have prefered AJ Piertzinski to Brad Outmost ...errr Bad Ausmus...errrr...our catcher. Though AJ is not be all, he at least looks like he can play.

There are reasons that Pierzenski gets traded (granted Joe Mauer was one of them). He is not a good teammate. While you may prefer A.J. (easier to spell), to Ausmus, I doubt any of the pitchers would.

[NJRocket]

But you are basing your opinion on assuming that 2005 performance will be relatively close to past performance - correct?

yes

That being the case, wouldn't you agree that 8 games into the season is too early to make a determination as to what the proper course of action should have been?

yes and no.....8 games is certainly not the benchmark to judge the next 154...however, the performance thus far (even in 1 or 2 of the wins) is exactly what I expected when we did nothing this offseason

Isn't it possible, that whichever outfielder remains predominantly in the starting lineup once Berkman returns (Scott or Taveras) will have a better season than Drew or Finley?

possible..yes

[ArtV]

Originally posted by NJRocket

You "homers" still excited about seeing the young guys play?

While I was too excited about this offseason, the young guys have been playing well. I've been pleasently surprised. Heck, Taveras bats between Mr No. O and the pitcher still has a early BA of .370. Lane and Scott are batting over 300 as well. Berkman coming back won't give us the boost we need as he will be replacing one of the .300+ guys though he does have more power.

A couple of things hurting us so far.

1) Middle relievers - not good enough to bridge the gap between our starters and Lidge.
2) Brad Ausmus.
3) The batting order - please Phil, it's time to adjust to get the most out of this line-up. I'd try:
Taveras
Biggio
Scott
Bagwell
Lane
Ensberg
Everett
Chávez
pitcher

[Nick]

The Giants spent big for an Aumus-clone in Mike Matheny to replace AJ... that alone should say what teams think of that guy.

[Fegwu]

Originally posted by bobrek
There are reasons that Pierzenski gets traded (granted Joe Mauer was one of them). He is not a good teammate. While you may prefer A.J. (easier to spell), to Ausmus, I doubt any of the pitchers would.

I know and I have heard above his abrasive side but we badly needed help knowing Berk's situation and the Beltran no show.

Heck we signed Carl Everret knowing his baggages. What about Mitch Mulosky [sp?]? - didn't we put up with his antics? He would not have been traded if he was able to stay healthy despite his numerous personality negatives. All we needed was a stop gap - we could then trade A.J. if he was too much of a negative effect in the locker room by midseason. With Vets like Roger, Bidge, Baggs, etc I would bet that A.J. would have respected them and behaved himself.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by ArtV
(1) Middle relievers - not good enough to bridge the gap between our starters and Lidge.


Out of curiosity, why do you say this? With the exception of the 1st Mets win, the middle relievers haven't cost the team at all, and if a couple of routine plays get made in that game, who knows?

Last night, Franco gets a dribbler to Bagwell for an out and then gives up a dribbler which tied the game. Wheeler comes in and gets a ground ball for an error which allowed the winning run to score.

The previous night, the Mets scored on another softly hit ball up the middle.

When you boil it all down, the only problem the team has had so far is timely hitting. They are getting enough base runners to win but aren't driving them in.

[Fegwu]

Originally posted by Nick
The Giants spent big for an Aumus-clone in Mike Matheny to replace AJ... that alone should say what teams think of that guy.

Common Nick, you are a descent baseball mind and you should know better than this. The Giants were not lacking for offense. A.J. was expendable because his offense would not be missed that much while in return they get a better staff manager, person and defender in Mike.

You can even figure that one out without much thought - that example is not good.

Calvin Murphy has a saying that states that every team is not for every player. Many players that were hated in other balls clubs have come here and fit in nicely. Weren't those same Giants tired of Jent Kent's act? Wasn't the same Kent close to a model citizen here? What about Derek Bell? Once he left here he couldn't fit in in Pittsburg.

[SamCassell]

Originally posted by Nick
The Giants spent big for an Aumus-clone in Mike Matheny to replace AJ... that alone should say what teams think of that guy.
While I'm not a big fan Matheny, I wouldn't say that the Giants spent big (he's making what Ausmus is this season), nor that he is a clone of Ausmus (2 years younger and better defensively, won last 2 gold gloves).

I'm not big on A.J. for the reason cited, but LoDuca's a guy I like. Wasn't he a free agent this offseason?

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by SamCassell

I'm not big on A.J. for the reason cited, but LoDuca's a guy I like. Wasn't he a free agent this offseason?

Yes

[SamCassell]

Now there's a guy who can hit and evidently calls a good game. And his contract wasn't pricey. Dunno if he was ever looked at, or if he had any desire to leave Florida, but he's a solid piece of their lineup.

[Nick]

Once again... if the catcher position is this team's biggest problem for the enitre year... I'll be more than overjoyed.

Brad Aumus' hitting woes are too far down the list of potential concerns for this team for me to spend any more time arguing about it... I was just saying that the Giants chose a light-hitting, more defensive minded catcher over AJ.

[Groogrux]

Thank you bobrek.

It's bobrek.

[Nick]

Originally posted by SamCassell
Now there's a guy who can hit and evidently calls a good game. And his contract wasn't pricey. Dunno if he was ever looked at, or if he had any desire to leave Florida, but he's a solid piece of their lineup.

Flordia made sure to lock him up... convinced that he would be the difference between Josh Beckett being a Kerry Wood, or Josh Beckett becoming one of the greatest ever.

Also, he's got AJ Burnett and Dontrelle to work with as well... DAMN, does anybody else realize how deep the pitching for the Marlins is? And its basically all home-grown, and this is also after losing Pavano.

[Fegwu]

Originally posted by Nick
Once again... if the catcher position is this team's biggest problem for the enitre year... I'll be more than overjoyed.

Brad Aumus' hitting woes are too far down the list of potential concerns for this team for me to spend any more time arguing about it... I was just saying that the Giants chose a light-hitting, more defensive minded catcher over AJ.

That is very weak coming from you.

At least attempt to paint the full picture here - the Giants are among the ML leaders in runs scored. Go figure! That aguement is weak - let it go.

[Nick]

Originally posted by Fegwu
That is very weak coming from you.

At least attempt to paint the full picture here - the Giants are among the ML leaders in runs scored. Go figure! That aguement is weak - let it go.

The whole debate is weak... who cares about the catcher? ;)

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally posted by Fegwu
That aguement is weak - let it go.
Not according to Brian Sabean.

But what does he know?

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by Buck Turgidson
Not according to Brian Sabean.

But what does he know?

Not nearly as much as some people here. Duh.

[fya]

Originally posted by Nick
The Giants spent big for an Aumus-clone in Mike Matheny to replace AJ... that alone should say what teams think of that guy.

The Giants also have a better owner and higher payroll, so that doesn't really matter to them.

[Buck Turgidson]

When you boil it all down, the only problem the team has had so far is timely hitting. They are getting enough base runners to win but aren't driving them in.

Exactly, bobrek, situational hitting and defense.

[Nick]

Originally posted by fya
The Giants also have a better owner and higher payroll, so that doesn't really matter to them.

They aren't the Yankees... they still make decisions that only help better the team, but only at the right cost.

[ArtV]

Originally posted by bobrek
Out of curiosity, why do you say this? With the exception of the 1st Mets win, the middle relievers haven't cost the team at all, and if a couple of routine plays get made in that game, who knows?

Last night, Franco gets a dribbler to Bagwell for an out and then gives up a dribbler which tied the game. Wheeler comes in and gets a ground ball for an error which allowed the winning run to score.

The previous night, the Mets scored on another softly hit ball up the middle.

When you boil it all down, the only problem the team has had so far is timely hitting. They are getting enough base runners to win but aren't driving them in.

I didn't mean it in a way (my #1 wasn't the #1 problem) that meant that it was a great weakness. But more that since our offense is weak and our starters and closer are strong, we need more strength out of the middle to get us Ws. This seems to be where the momentum shifts. But you are right in that these Ls cannot be put upon those pitchers but more Ks would be nice but asking too much out of that position. I guess it all goes back to weak bats or wrong order.

[msn]

Originally posted by NJRocket
8 games is certainly not the benchmark to judge the next 154...however, the performance thus far (even in 1 or 2 of the wins) is exactly what I expected when we did nothing this offseason
Yet you weren't posting this BS when they were 4-1. At that time you were just bitching about Everett. If the Astros win 4 of their next 6, are you not going to mention this again until the next 3-game losing streak?

BTW, I agree with you completely about Purpura. Great, fabulous with talent, but an unknown as far as GM. I hope we're pleasantly surprised by the end of the season. Hunsicker was just sick good.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by msn
Yet you weren't posting this BS when they were 4-1.

yes, actually i did....i have been posting it for a while now

[Svpernaut]

Good Lord people, it's a 162 game season! Look at the current records of the 8 teams that made the playoffs last year, all have a good chance of bein back but their current records for the most part suck or are average.

Angels - 5W 4L
Astros - 4W 4L
Braves - 5W 4L
Cardinals - 3W 4L
Dodgers 6W 2L
Redsox - 4W 5L
Twins - 6W 3L
Yankees - 4W 5L

37 Wins & 31 Loses

The Astros are NOT the only playoff team from last year struggling... only the Dodgers and Twins are even doing anything remotely close to their potential.

We are struggling offensively, there is no hiding that... but we are HITTING the ball, we just have had our fair share of rally killings. We have two playrs struggling at the plate, plus a pitcher's spot that isn't going to be the best (unless Backe is in there). Once Everett and Ausmus find their strokes (and they will eventually) and once we have Berkman back, we will be just fine.

Either way, it's a 162 game season and you're all bitching after just hte 8th freaking game even though the Cubs and Cardinals are both doing worse then us. Do you honestly think the Nationals will win the east over the Marlins, Atlanta or Philly? Hell no... and the Brewers sure as crap won't win the Central.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Svpernaut
Good Lord people, it's a 162 game season! Look at the current records of the 8 teams that made the playoffs last year, all have a good chance of bein back but their current records for the most part suck or are average.

Angels - 5W 4L
Astros - 4W 4L
Braves - 5W 4L
Cardinals - 3W 4L
Dodgers 6W 2L
Redsox - 4W 5L
Twins - 6W 3L
Yankees - 4W 5L

37 Wins & 31 Loses




Here's the difference between us and those other teams listed...

Angels...still have their team in tact and added a little
Braves...added to their starting pitching (a weakness from last yr)
Cards...added to their pitching...lost womack and renteria but added gruz, eck and Mulder...I'd say at WORST no blood there
Dodgers....inproved their lineup and starting pitching
Red Sox...filled in various holes with equal or better players
Twins...not sure what they did if anything
Yanks...improved SP and 2B...and got Tino so Giambi can DH
Astros...(fill in own sarcastic remark)

[Svpernaut]

Originally posted by NJRocket
Here's the difference between us and those other teams listed...

Angels...still have their team in tact and added a little
Braves...added to their starting pitching (a weakness from last yr)
Cards...added to their pitching...lost womack and renteria but added gruz, eck and Mulder...I'd say at WORST no blood there
Dodgers....inproved their lineup and starting pitching
Red Sox...filled in various holes with equal or better players
Twins...not sure what they did if anything
Yanks...improved SP and 2B...and got Tino so Giambi can DH
Astros...(fill in own sarcastic remark)

You're right, many of those teams went out and blew money and are in the EXACT same boat we are now... so spare us with the "we suck" comments. Those teams and their fans aren't panacking and neither should ours. Yet NONE of them have a better ERA then the Astros... we are third in the league in Team ERA (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/aggregate?statType=pitching&group=9&seasonType=2&type=type1&sort=ERA&split=0&season=2005). We are also having our offensive problems but we ARE hitting the ball and are in the top 10 in Team AVG (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/aggregate?statType=batting&group=9&seasonType=2&type=type1&sort=avg&split=0&season=2005) even with two of our starters doing horribly.

It's also interesting to note the Cubs are 13th in team batting average (we're 10th) and 12th in team ERA (we're 3rd)... and the Cardinals are 28th in team batting average right now, and 29th in team ERA. So don't tell me they made great improvements from last year based on their early record because making ANY assumptions after 8-10 games is ridiculous to begin with... good or bad.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Svpernaut
You're right, many of those teams went out and blew money and are in the EXACT same boat we are now... so spare us with the "we suck" comments.

You completely missed the point....those teams have veteran players (that were either retained or signed) who have proven track records...and all they need to do to suceed, is play up to the past levels....we dont. Our guys all pretty much need career years...and ROY-years for us to get over the hump. How is it that you don't see this? Its not rocket science.

[Svpernaut]

Originally posted by NJRocket
You completely missed the point....those teams have veteran players (that were either retained or signed) who have proven track records...and all they need to do to suceed, is play up to the past levels....we dont. Our guys all pretty much need career years...and ROY-years for us to get over the hump. How is it that you don't see this? Its not rocket science.

Or only two players who are struggling at the plate ARE proven veterns. Our rookies have shown they can hit and hang with the big boys. Taveras isn't going to forget how to hit after 8 games of full-time play, and neither is Scott or Burke. If Everett was hitting about .270 and Ausmus about .250 there is no doubt that we'd be in a lot better shape in the Won/Loss column.

Another stat note... the Astros are 5th in the majors in OBP and are probably near the top in LOB (left on base), I can't find a LOB stat but I know they are top 10 at least, maybe even top 5. They'll come around, and have all proven that they can hit... so I didn't miss your point.

[msn]

Originally posted by NJRocket
....those teams have veteran players (that were either retained or signed) who have proven track records.......we dont.
Holy crap! Bagwell, Biggio, Berkman, Oswalt, Pettitte, and Roger FREAKING Clemens all say hi!

Ever since it was evident the Astros lost out on Beltran you have done nothing but bitch and moan. It's a free country, so carry on.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Svpernaut
Or only two players who are struggling at the plate ARE proven veterns. Our rookies have shown they can hit and hang with the big boys. Taveras isn't going to forget how to hit after 8 games of full-time play, and neither is Scott or Burke. If Everett was hitting about .270 and Ausmus about .250 there is no doubt that we'd be in a lot better shape in the Won/Loss column.

.

So you want Ausmus to hit his career average and you want Everett to hit 20 points higher than his career average. You act like these 2 guys are perennial silver sluggers. If it was Bags and Bidge hitting .081 and .125 (or whatever those 2 slugs are hitting), you would have a point...but they aren't...and you don't.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by msn
Holy crap! Bagwell, Biggio, Berkman, Oswalt, Pettitte, and Roger FREAKING Clemens all say hi!

Ever since it was evident the Astros lost out on Beltran you have done nothing but bitch and moan. It's a free country, so carry on.

i never questioned the pitching....but if it makes you feel better to take things out of context, feel free:rolleyes:

[msn]

Originally posted by NJRocket
You act like these 2 guys are perennial silver sluggers.
BS. We act like he's doing his job, or eventually will as all things average out. YOU, and other perennial whiners, act like they *should* be, and then whine endlessly when they don't perform up to your expectations. Folks with realistic expectations see things differently. Every spot in the order doesn't have to hit .333 and drive in 90 with 25 dingers, believe it or not.

[Svpernaut]

Originally posted by NJRocket
So you want Ausmus to hit his career average and you want Everett to hit 20 points higher than his career average. You act like these 2 guys are perennial silver sluggers. If it was Bags and Bidge hitting .081 and .125 (or whatever those 2 slugs are hitting), you would have a point...but they aren't...and you don't.

Adam Everett hit .273 last season, no reason to see why he won't/can't match that. Brad Ausmus hit .254 last year, no reason to see why he won't/can't match that. They will come around, and if they can hit +/- .010 of their 2004 averages we'll be just fine.

Lance on 610 brought up a good point about Everett this morning, that he was being "too aggressive" at times and "too cautious" at others in the leadoff role trying to make something happen. He has been too cautious towards the beginning of the game trying to give his lineup more pitches to see from the pitcher and too aggressive late in the game by trying to make something happen. I just don't think Everett has the mentality to be a leadoff man, and I think he could easily hit .280 in another spot besides leadoff.

[leroy420]

Originally posted by SamCassell

I'm not big on A.J. for the reason cited, but LoDuca's a guy I like. Wasn't he a free agent this offseason?


Originally posted by NJRocket
Yes

Actually, LoDuca was still under club control.

[msn]

Originally posted by NJRocket
i never questioned the pitching....but if it makes you feel better to take things out of context, feel free:rolleyes:
Damn! Bagwell and Biggio can pitch?? There's the last thing to cement them for the Hall, for sure! But, if it makes you feel better to ignore half the context, go right ahead.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by msn
But, if it makes you feel better to ignore half the context, go right ahead.

take your own advice

the context was that we added no one....we only lost guys...nor did we replace what we lost with anything proven....just rookies..AA rookies at that.

[SamCassell]

If Ausmus his what he hit last year, he's still the worst hitting regular in the NL. Everett is near the bottom as well if you look beyond BA to walks, run/rbi, and power production. And that's before adjusting for the fact that they play in one of the better hitter's parks.

Argue if you like that we don't need production from every lineup slot, that's open for debate. Argue that their defense makes their offense palatable. But just because someone hits .270 doesn't make them a good hitter. That's not the be all and end all to offensive production. It's not even a particularly good measurement.

[Svpernaut]

Originally posted by SamCassell
Argue if you like that we don't need production from every lineup slot, that's open for debate. Argue that their defense makes their offense palatable. But just because someone hits .270 doesn't make them a good hitter. That's not the be all and end all to offensive production. It's not even a particularly good measurement.

They don't need to be good hitters, they just need to do what they did last year, and I am sure they will. No one said they were good hitters.

[MadMax]

I keep coming back to the fact you're using an 8 game sample size to support your contentions of how this team will perform over 162 games. You simply can't take an 8 game slice of ANY season and use it to make any credible point about the peformance of a team over the whole 162 games. Way too many games...way too many factors.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Svpernaut
They don't need to be good hitters, they just need to do what they did last year, and I am sure they will. No one said they were good hitters.

so you are arguing that if Ausmus hits 250...and Everett hits 270, we will be good enough to make the playoffs?

[MadMax]

Originally posted by NJRocket
so you are arguing that if Ausmus hits 250...and Everett hits 270, we will be good enough to make the playoffs?

NJ, this is beyond silly, now. This team made the playoffs last year. At the beginning of the season, before Beltran, most thought this was a playoff team. But they lost Pettitte...and that really hurt. At the halfway point (thereabouts) they added Beltran. In the offseason they lost Beltran...they lost Kent...they got back Pettitte and "discovered" Backe over the course of the last season.

Their starting rotation is stronger than it was last year. Their hitting is not as strong as it was last year. I'm hopeful they can compete. But when they sweep the Reds in April, I'm not ready to fly a pennant, yet. And when they get swept by the Mets, I'm not ready to condemn the season.

[Svpernaut]

Originally posted by NJRocket
so you are arguing that if Ausmus hits 250...and Everett hits 270, we will be good enough to make the playoffs?

Uhh yes. What did you expect them to do, which .330 out of their cornholes? They are only two of our hitters. Bagwell will do his usual, Biggio will continue to amaze us, Berkman will be the man, Taveras will be a scoring/stealing machine, Lane and Ensberg will have solid seasons... and we do have the best rotation in the National League and maybe even the majors.

We'll be fine.

[RIET]

Originally posted by MadMax
I keep coming back to the fact you're using an 8 game sample size to support your contentions of how this team will perform over 162 games. You simply can't take an 8 game slice of ANY season and use it to make any credible point about the peformance of a team over the whole 162 games. Way too many games...way too many factors.

The main reason we were succesful down the stretch and in the playoffs was because of Carlos Beltran and Jeff Kent.

5 games, 8 games, 10 games, 100 games won't replace their hitting.

It's not a matter of time. It's a matter of talent.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by MadMax
NJ, this is beyond silly, now. .

thats what im trying to tell him

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by RIET
The main reason we were succesful down the stretch and in the playoffs was because of Carlos Beltran and Jeff Kent.

Yes. Carlos Beltran and his 7 magical RBIs in September!

[MadMax]

Originally posted by RIET
The main reason we were succesful down the stretch and in the playoffs was because of Carlos Beltran and Jeff Kent.

5 games, 8 games, 10 games, 100 games won't replace their hitting.

It's not a matter of time. It's a matter of talent.

Carlos Beltran was good down the stretch...not great. Kent hit well...Bagwell came on and hit well...Berkman started slow and then hit well down the stretch as well.

Beyond that, their bullpen started pitching far better than it had been. And they found a legit lights-out closer. They had injuries in the pitching staff that seemed to be miraculously filled in by guys with names like Backe and Munro...who won big games when I never would have expected it.

It's not a zero sum game. You don't subtract Beltran and Kent...and say that's it. We won't be leaving their positions wide open this season. Two others will be fielding their positions this season. Biggio will be at 2nd....Taveras will be in CF. They will post SOMETHING. So you're not merely subtracting all those RBI's or runs scored from last season. And hopefully, you're getting more power from LF than you did last season. Particularly when Berkman gets back and Lane moves over.


And in the end...fine. If you say they suck on paper...if you say they just don't have talent...fine. But don't try to use an 8 game sample size to substantiate that.

[RIET]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Yes. Carlos Beltran and his 7 magical RBIs in September!
And Kent had 22.

Beltran had 21 RBI's the month before and scored 22 runs in September.

Without Beltran and Kent, how far do we go in the playoffs? Not far.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by RIET

Without Beltran and Kent, how far do we go in the playoffs? Not far.

better question would be.....Without Beltran and kent , do we MAKE the playoffs? NO

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by NJRocket
better question would be.....Without Beltran and kent , do we MAKE the playoffs? NO

Without Clemens, Berkman, Bagwell, Lidge, Backe, Oswalt, or Biggio, would we have made the playoffs? NO.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by NJRocket
better question would be.....Without Beltran and kent , do we MAKE the playoffs? NO

you're right. it's over. turn it off. stop watching. and stop posting about it here. if something happens, we'll let you know.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by MadMax
you're right. it's over. turn it off. stop watching. and stop posting about it here. if something happens, we'll let you know.

i was referring to last year ( in response to another post about LAST year)....why does everyone insist on taking things out of context?

[MadMax]

Originally posted by NJRocket
i was referring to last year ( in response to another post about LAST year)....why does everyone insist on taking things out of context?

well..we don't have beltran and kent this year...soooo.....and you've made it quite clear what you think that means.

[msn]

Originally posted by NJRocket
so you are arguing that if Ausmus hits 250...and Everett hits 270, we will be good enough to make the playoffs?
Yes--as long as the guys who are on this team to *hit* actually do. Why does everyone in the lineup have to hit .333/90/25? How in the hell did the '82 and '87 Cardinals ever win anything?

For example--last April and May's horrible offensive woes were not due to Ausmus and Everett. They were due to the great hitters in the lineup not hitting great. Not even hitting well. How hard is that to comprehend?

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by MadMax
well..we don't have beltran and kent this year...soooo.....and you've made it quite clear what you think that means.

but i didnt say it ....this time;)

[RIET]

Originally posted by MadMax
It's not a zero sum game. You don't subtract Beltran and Kent...and say that's it. We won't be leaving their positions wide open this season. Two others will be fielding their positions this season. Biggio will be at 2nd....Taveras will be in CF. They will post SOMETHING. So you're not merely subtracting all those RBI's or runs scored from last season. And hopefully, you're getting more power from LF than you did last season. Particularly when Berkman gets back and Lane moves over.


Since Biggio's move was purely defensive, youre comparing Tavares and Jason Lane to Beltran and Kent.

Even assuming the very best, Tavares steals 42 bases and scores 121 runs, how do we replace the 40 home runs and 100+ RBIs from Carlos Beltran.

No way Jason Lane hits 27 hrs and 100+ RBIs.

In baseball, most games are decided by a run here, a clutch hit there.

You replace 1 superstar and 1 very good all-star with a promising 1 dimensional rookie and a platoon player - that's the difference between an 85 win season and a serious contender.

[RIET]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Without Clemens, Berkman, Bagwell, Lidge, Backe, Oswalt, or Biggio, would we have made the playoffs? NO.

We've made the playoffs before with some of those players - and always failed - because of hitting.

Except Brandon Backe can hit better than Randy Johnson so maybe we have a chance now.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by RIET
Since Biggio's move was purely defensive, youre comparing Tavares and Jason Lane to Beltran and Kent.

Even assuming the very best, Tavares steals 42 bases and scores 121 runs, how do we replace the 40 home runs and 100+ RBIs from Carlos Beltran.

No way Jason Lane hits 27 hrs and 100+ RBIs.

In baseball, most games are decided by a run here, a clutch hit there.

You replace superstar and 1 very good all-star with a promising 1 dimensional rookie and a platoon player - that's the difference between an 85 win season and a serious contender.

1. You don't necessarily have to replace those runs if your pitching is better. It's not like a team hits a certain number of runs and they're automatically declared a winner. That's not baseball. If you've improved defensively...and you've improved pitching...then you don't need as much offense to win. It's more of a luxury at that point.

2. Don't forget to add in the "superstar" starting pitcher who wasn't with us for about 3/4 of last season. Oh..and don't forget to add in a closer for a full season who can actually close out games.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by RIET
We've made the playoffs before with some of those players - and always failed - because of hitting.


yeah...and kent's production the year before didn't even get us to the playoffs. that bastard!!!!

this is baseball...not hoops.

[bigtexxx]

Jeff Kent's stats so far this season:
Avg: .419 - beats anybody we got
HR: 2 - tied with Bagwell for most we got
RBI: 11 - The top RBI man on the Astros has a whopping 4 RBI.

[NIKEstrad]

The curious stats are the Astros production in other stats don't seem to line up to their anemic run output.

We're 10th in BA, 5th in OBP, 11th in SLG, 7th in OPS, 2nd in steals (all MLB ranks)...that shouldn't add up to 29th in runs, but it does. I'm not saying we're a good offensive team, but we really should be scoring more runs than we have been.

This team misses Lance. He makes everyone around him better- I don't want to fully judge the offense until he's back, but we were fine with Everett and Ausmus last year.

[Svpernaut]

The team is HITTING great, they are simply lacking scoring... and that will eventualy cure itselft. Our number 1 and 7 hitters aren't going to hit .100 the entire season, they'll eventually start producing no matter who is filling the spots.

Pitching wins world series over offense nearly every year... and has done it three out of the last four. The Diamondbacks, Angels and Marlins all won with pitching... so don't say it can't be done.

Our offense is going to produce just fine and we will be a middle of the pack offensive team with a top of the line pitching staff and late relief. Feel free to ask the Cardinals how their season is going right now with big bats and no pitching.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by bigtexxx
Jeff Kent's stats so far this season:
Avg: .419 - beats anybody we got
HR: 2 - tied with Bagwell for most we got
RBI: 11 - The top RBI man on the Astros has a whopping 4 RBI.

Inadequate sample size. Let's talk in June.

[Groogrux]

Biggio brought up a good point during the pre-game. If we're still in it come all-star break (and I think even before that...early June), McLane will make the deals to bring some bats in if it looks like we need them.

I know most of you will say he's too cheap to do so, but you can't argue with history.

[RIET]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Biggio brought up a good point during the pre-game. If we're still in it come all-star break (and I think even before that...early June), McLane will make the deals to bring some bats in if it looks like we need them.

I know most of you will say he's too cheap to do so, but you can't argue with history.

What history tells us is he rents players for 2 months. That's not exactly taking on a huge financial risk.

I doubt most people even remember Randy Johnson wearing an Astros uniform.

Im not saying we should go out and spend like the Yankees.

However, part of the legacy of his cheapness extends all the way down the pipeline to how we draft players.

Why did we draft Phil Nevin? Was he really the #1 rated player that year? Why did we draft Tony McKnight? Why did we bother drafting Drew Stubbs?

The draft and follows are nice but we aren't always going to strike gold with the Darryl Kiles and the Roy Oswalts.

The minor league draft is a crapshoot, even moreso than other sports. However, when signability determines who you draft, that's not a long-term recipe for success.

It's obviously not limited to only the Astros but as a fan, it's always nice to pretend your owner's #1 priority is to win.

[Groogrux]

I have no idea about McLane's budget and how it pertains to who we select in the amateur draft.

I was simply posting that McLane's got a good history of bringing in players in the middle of a playoff race. So, we should hope that our well above-average starting rotation can hold up the bats until that time.

[Svpernaut]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
I have no idea about McLane's budget and how it pertains to who we select in the amateur draft.

I was simply posting that McLane's got a good history of bringing in players in the middle of a playoff race. So, we should hope that our well above-average starting rotation can hold up the bats until that time.

No need, the bats woke up tonight ;-) Well, except for Everett of course... lol.

[NIKEstrad]

Originally posted by RIET

Why did we draft Phil Nevin? Was he really the #1 rated player that year? Why did we draft Tony McKnight? Why did we bother drafting Drew Stubbs?

The minor league draft is a crapshoot, even moreso than other sports. .

You answered your own question. How do you think the Yankees feel about Brien Taylor?

I see your Drew Stubbs and raise you a Troy Patton.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by RIET
What history tells us is he rents players for 2 months. That's notWhy did we draft Phil Nevin? Was he really the #1 rated player that year? Why did we draft Tony McKnight? Why did we bother drafting Drew Stubbs?


Nevin was one of the highly rated college players the year he was drafted. There were no real big names (e.g. Prior, Mauer, Drew) that came out that year so signability wasn't much of a factor. Jeter was taken 6th that year out of high school

McKnight was taken with the 22nd pick and Stubbs was a 3rd rounder. Why do you even bring those guys up?

[Clutch]

Originally posted by RIET
Why did we draft Phil Nevin? Was he really the #1 rated player that year?

I don't know a ton about the MLB Draft, but I remember that one because the 'Stros had the #1 pick. Correct me if I'm wrong or if my memory is failing on this, but I thought Jeffrey Hammonds was considered the consensus #1 at the time, but wanted too much money so the Astros passed on him. Sort of the Scott Boras-type client at the time. He ended up going #4 to Baltimore.

It's been mentioned in this forum before also, but Derek Jeter went 6th in that draft and apparently the Astros scout in Michigan lobbied hard for the Astros to take him, but word was Jeter wanted $1 million for a bonus, and Houston took Nevin who agreed to $700,000. The scout quit as a result.

You can read about that here :
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=olney_buster&id=1863947

Nevin turned out to be a pretty good ballplayer though ... for someone else of course. I think I remember (if memory serves) that he went like 4-for-70 or something outrageous at the plate in the majors one year, and they sent him back down to Triple-A and he went ballistic ... real unprofessional.

[Nick]

Originally posted by NIKEstrad
I see your Drew Stubbs and raise you a Troy Patton.

Troy Patton is going to be MONEY... and for the amount we're paying him as a 19 year old, he better be MONEY!

I hope he gets up to Corpus before the end of the year.... That would definitely put him on the "fast track".

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
I was simply posting that McLane's got a good history of bringing in players in the middle of a playoff race.

cant argue that

[RIET]

Originally posted by Clutch
I don't know a ton about the MLB Draft, but I remember that one because the 'Stros had the #1 pick. Correct me if I'm wrong or if my memory is failing on this, but I thought Jeffrey Hammonds was considered the consensus #1 at the time, but wanted too much money so the Astros passed on him. Sort of the Scott Boras-type client at the time. He ended up going #4 to Baltimore.

It's been mentioned in this forum before also, but Derek Jeter went 6th in that draft and apparently the Astros scout in Michigan lobbied hard for the Astros to take him, but word was Jeter wanted $1 million for a bonus, and Houston took Nevin who agreed to $700,000. The scout quit as a result.

You can read about that here :
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=olney_buster&id=1863947

Nevin turned out to be a pretty good ballplayer though ... for someone else of course. I think I remember (if memory serves) that he went like 4-for-70 or something outrageous at the plate in the majors one year, and they sent him back down to Triple-A and he went ballistic ... real unprofessional.

That's pretty much it. The Astros picked the most signable player.
Most people believed Jeter and Hammonds were the top 2 players but Nevin was the most signable.

As far as why I brought up McKnight. McKnight was a player most people pegged in the 3rd and 4th. Houston negotiated with him early so they took in the 1st round - not based on talent but signability.

My point is when you are frugal at the major league level and extend that to your farm system, you'll get burned sooner or later.

Gerry Hunsicker built a consistently winning team on a mid-low market budget. Hunsicker is now gone, Clemens will soon be gone as will Biggio and Bagwell.

We have some good young players but not superstar status prospects. Per Baseball America for 2005, out of the Top 100 prospects, we only have 2 (Chris Burke 60 and Astacio 80).

Ive been an Astros fan since 1977.

McMullen signed Nolan Ryan. McLane signed Drabek and Swindell. McLane signed Pettitte and Clemens.

Those were exceptions that masked their frugality.

We have never had an owner whose primary objective was to win.

That has always been frustrating.

[Nick]

Originally posted by NJRocket
the weather??????:confused: you gotta be kidding

Well, apparently Jason Lane thought the weather was a factor in NY. ;)

"As bad as we did in New York, a few of our balls got knocked down by the cold. Today was a much more pleasant day," he said.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/recap?gameId=250415117

[NIKEstrad]

Originally posted by Nick
Troy Patton is going to be MONEY... and for the amount we're paying him as a 19 year old, he better be MONEY!


Lefties with arms like his are golden...we miss you Carlos! (Wandy Rodriguez seems to be filling this description, too).

RIET- I get where you're coming from. I could be wrong, but was McKnight the year when there were more strike/lockout concerns?

Baseball America is fine and dandy, but take it with a grain of salt. Systems are usually cyclical. We just went through a time when we brought up 4 blue chip pitchers in like 1 year (Wade, Roy, Redding, Carlos). Only one is pitching well right now. Remember the vaunted Mets gunslingers of Wilson, Isringhausen, and Pulsipher? We managed to pull 2 starting outfielders out of our AA team this year who are doing ok early in the season. We pulled a pretty good end game in Qualls/Lidge straight from our system not too long ago. Guys in the lower levels like Einertson and Patton are showing loads of promise- even take a look at our Round Rock rotation- Zeke, Wandy, Carlos, Buchholz, Gothreaux. Not many teams can put up 5 legit major league prospects in AAA. Patton will be on the way, and Nieve is supposed to light up AA.

We have a young shortstop entrenched if he would ever hit, a rookie 2B to take over for Biggio, and a highly rated catcher in AA. What concerns me is the dearth of corner infield prospects, and that Luke Scott is seemingly our best run producing prospect if/until Einertson comes around.

[Bassfly]

sheesh .... mark prior was drafted by the yankees initially but wanted a ridiculous signing bonus so the yankees declined, so prior went to usc. thats exactly what drew stubbs did, he wanted something to the effect of a 1 million dollar signing bonus and used UT as leverage. kazmir was easily a top 3 talent in the 2002 draft, but fell to 15th cause he wanted too much money. that's why gm's/owners (not just mclane GASP!) are always hesitant about drafting high school players because they always use college as leverage to get a larger signing bonus -- meaning they would waste a high draft pick on someone who would never play for them. using early picks and drafting based on signability is not only common but also wise.

[msn]

Originally posted by Bassfly
sheesh .... mark prior was drafted by the yankees initially but wanted a ridiculous signing bonus so the yankees declined, so prior went to usc. thats exactly what drew stubbs did, he wanted something to the effect of a 1 million dollar signing bonus and used UT as leverage. kazmir was easily a top 3 talent in the 2002 draft, but fell to 15th cause he wanted too much money. that's why gm's/owners (not just mclane GASP!) are always hesitant about drafting high school players because they always use college as leverage to get a larger signing bonus -- meaning they would waste a high draft pick on someone who would never play for them. using early picks and drafting based on signability is not only common but also wise.
It is utterly neanderthal to interrupt a good session of McLane bashing and whining with facts. Please get some manners.

{/tongue-in-cheek}

[RIET]

Originally posted by msn
It is utterly neanderthal to interrupt a good session of McLane bashing and whining with facts. Please get some manners.

{/tongue-in-cheek}

Please. If everyone were afraid of drafting high school players, they wouldn't be drafted.

Minnesota took Joe Mauer even with the risk that he was one of the top HS football players in the country and committed to play football with FSU. And the Twins are not the Yankees.

Certain organizations take college players because they believe the players will be ready to compete sooner (Huston Street) - not because they can offer them less money.

As far as Kazmir, he ended up signing for "only" $2.15 million which was less than some of the people drafted ahead of him got. He was obviously bluffing otherwise he probably wouldve been a top 3 pick. He was giving mixed signals as to what he wanted and what he was willing to accept. Also, teams are often scared to draft pitchers with small builds. They are often high risk potential for arm injuries.

[msn]

Originally posted by RIET
Please.
Don't mind if I do, thank you.

The point was that it is common for organizations to pass on the risk of drafting less signable players, not that "everyone is afraid to draft high school players."

But, I was wrong. McLane is a cheapscate. I've seen the light.

[Bassfly]

Originally posted by RIET
Please. If everyone were afraid of drafting high school players, they wouldn't be drafted.

Minnesota took Joe Mauer even with the risk that he was one of the top HS football players in the country and committed to play football with FSU. And the Twins are not the Yankees.

Certain organizations take college players because they believe the players will be ready to compete sooner (Huston Street) - not because they can offer them less money.

As far as Kazmir, he ended up signing for "only" $2.15 million which was less than some of the people drafted ahead of him got. He was obviously bluffing otherwise he probably wouldve been a top 3 pick. He was giving mixed signals as to what he wanted and what he was willing to accept. Also, teams are often scared to draft pitchers with small builds. They are often high risk potential for arm injuries.


nice post and all but youve avoided the inescapable detail that a considerable percentage of players that are drafted by a team do not end up signing and playing with that team. which is why it's smart to make sure you can sign a player before you choose to draft them, especially if its a top pick.... you cant just throw out money to every high end prospect that demands it

[msn]

Naw, man, let's just face it--we're just naïve homers who are happily oblivious to the glaring and ugly realities that:
--Ausmus and Everett are destroying our playoff chances this year
--Bagwell and Biggio are destroying our ability to build a competitive team in the feature
--McLane is a cheapscate who, meddling like Jerry Jones, ran off his best and most knowledgeable front office guy
--McLane has secretly made $50 million on the Astros while reporting 6-figure losses on an annual basis--the damn book-cooker!!

The first 8 games are evidence enough--this anemic offense will cost us 80 games! You mark my words!!!1:mad: :mad: :( :mad:

[MadMax]

Well, that's it. I saw last night's game and I'm convinced we're World Series bound. We made the 27 Yankees look weak. We're clearly dominant.

So I was right, fools. All you fools who doubted...you were wrong. Wallow in it. This team is awesome. Victory is mine...how sweet it is!!!


p.s. get off Adam Everett for one day. he was 2/5 with 2 runs scored last night. i was pissed at the pop up bunt on the squeeze...but he had a good night last night.

p.p.s. there are but a handful of owners who approach any given year without financial implications in mind. think yankee fans are criticizing Big Stein because he didn't pursue Beltran? some owners take a one-year stab at being great...others build with some level of consistency...still others don't try at all. but to pretend that mclane is alone among MLB owners who take financial considerations into mind when building a team is just silly. they all do. every single one of them. obviously those with higher revenue streams don't have to worry about it as much.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by RIET
Please. If everyone were afraid of drafting high school players, they wouldn't be drafted.

Minnesota took Joe Mauer even with the risk that he was one of the top HS football players in the country and committed to play football with FSU. And the Twins are not the Yankees.


Minnesota took Mauer for two reasons (other than the fact he is a great talent):

1. He was a local kid so they felt they had an excellent chance to sign him, which they did.

2. They felt Prior was unsignable.

Tony McKnight helped the Astros acquire Mike Williams which helped in a playoff run.

Nevin has had a better career over Hammonds, so it could be argued that he was the right choice.