Clemens run support

[arkoe]

I don't get it, but for some reason it seems that the Astros get Clemens really shoddy run support. In his first two games, he only has had three runs scored, two of those he drove in himself.

It seemed like last year there were several games where Clemens would have gotten wins if we only get one more run for him.

Has anyone else noticed this? Am I making this up, can anybody find me numbers for run support? I don't know where to look i t up...

[NJRocket]

Clemens seemed to be in a lot of 2-1 or 3-2 games last yr....and the trend is continuing this year. He could very well be in for a RJ -like year of 2004 where he goes around 15-15 with a sub 3 ERA.

[Svpernaut]

It's been two starts.. which isn't exactly enough starts to guess how many wins/loses he'll have because of lack of run support.

[bottlerocket]

Man for the Rocket to get wins he is going to have to throw a shut-out for him & Stros to win. Oh waite he did throw one and they still lost.

[arkoe]

Originally posted by Svpernaut
It's been two starts.. which isn't exactly enough starts to guess how many wins/loses he'll have because of lack of run support.

Maybe I wasn't specific enough, I wanted to know his run support LAST year.

I realize he's pitched two games so far this year and that it's very early in the season. Yet, there's no reason Roger shouldn't have two wins in two tries.

[redgoose]

Get ready for this year's Randy Johnson!

[The Real Shady]

When the Astros are out of contention he'll get traded to a contender who can score him some runs.

[Svpernaut]

Originally posted by arkoe
Maybe I wasn't specific enough, I wanted to know his run support LAST year.

I realize he's pitched two games so far this year and that it's very early in the season. Yet, there's no reason Roger shouldn't have two wins in two tries.

Once again, getting a no decision this early in the season isn't a big deal... if he has 10 by mid season then maybe we should worry. We're having our offensive struggles right now, but it's mainly because we have two automatic outs in the line up right now in Everett and Ausmus... simply put, they are rally killers. We are hitting just fine, just not finding the holes we need to when it counts. It will come... especially when Berkman comes back.

[arkoe]

Pitched a shutout through seven today, game's now in extra innings tied. No W for Roger.

I don't know, it just irks me that we can't get him the win. And you know it pisses off a certain Hall of Famer.

[wrath_of_khan]

This is starting to remind of the year Nolan led the league in Ks and ERA only to post a losing record with us...

[BigM]

roger has been around too long to be pissed about run support. he understands how baseball works and sometimes it's just not there. obviously he'd like to have it but it's not something that will get to him AT ALL unlike a certain tim redding.

don't take anything away from how well tim hudson pitched either.

[bottlerocket]

The Astros are the only team that can have a(the same) pitcher throw a shutout (twice) and lose.

[arkoe]

Originally posted by BigM
roger has been around too long to be pissed about run support. he understands how baseball works and sometimes it's just not there. obviously he'd like to have it but it's not something that will get to him AT ALL unlike a certain tim redding.

I'm not saying it's going to affect his pitching, I'm saying he's going to be asking for a trade come the trading deadline.

[JPM0016]

Originally posted by arkoe
I'm saying he's going to be asking for a trade come the trading deadline.

Just like he did with the lack of run support last year.

[A-Train]

Well, at least the Astros will be able to get a couple of decent prospects for Clemens when they trade him this July...

[MadMax]

Watch your head...the sky is falling!!! aaaaahhhhhhh!!!!!!

Did the Braves get "run support" for Hudson last night? Took them 12 innings to score a run, as well. We faced their ace...they faced ONE of ours. We came up short. Both teams blew chances to score earlier in the game. Yet at the end of the night...one of 162...one team's fans will talk about how great their win was last night. And the other team's fans will talk about how....their season is over??? their hometown hero will demand a trade soon???

Give me a break. It's baseball...a marathon. Remember last season even a little bit???? I do. Most of you hopped on and off the bandwagon all season long.

p.s. i don't wanna hear any of you guys ever bitching about fan support in Houston again.

[Raven Lunatic]

According to this link: link (http://www.baseballtruth.com/leadingoff/leadingoff_092804.htm)

his run support last season was 4.8 or so. I think that is probably at least middle of the pack, if not a bit above it.

[msn]

Originally posted by bottlerocket
The Astros are the only team that can have a(the same) pitcher throw a shutout (twice) and lose.
The Astros have *lost* a no-hitter before! I believe it was one of Don Wilson's, but I'm not sure a remember it correctly. 1-0, five walks.

[JPM0016]

Originally posted by MadMax
Give me a break. It's baseball...a marathon. Remember last season even a little bit???? I do. Most of you hopped on and off the bandwagon all season long.


Well said Max

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by MadMax
Watch your head...the sky is falling!!! aaaaahhhhhhh!!!!!!

Did the Braves get "run support" for Hudson last night? Took them 12 innings to score a run, as well. We faced their ace...they faced ONE of ours. We came up short. Both teams blew chances to score earlier in the game. Yet at the end of the night...one of 162...one team's fans will talk about how great their win was last night. And the other team's fans will talk about how....their season is over??? their hometown hero will demand a trade soon???

Give me a break. It's baseball...a marathon. Remember last season even a little bit???? I do. Most of you hopped on and off the bandwagon all season long.

p.s. i don't wanna hear any of you guys ever bitching about fan support in Houston again.

Max....you are making it like those of us who are fed up with the lack of moves/production/etc are rooting against the Astros now. We are simply complaining because we got a taste of the friggin big time last year....and now we are on the path to a .500 season...ok? Therefore, stop pretending like everything with OUR tem is peachy and that things are looking up. I want them to turn it around as much as you....but so far, they have performed WORSE than I expected...and I wasnt expecting much.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by NJRocket
Max....you are making it like those of us who are fed up with the lack of moves/production/etc are rooting against the Astros now. We are simply complaining because we got a taste of the friggin big time last year....and now we are on the path to a .500 season...ok? Therefore, stop pretending like everything with OUR tem is peachy and that things are looking up. I want them to turn it around as much as you....but so far, they have performed WORSE than I expected...and I wasnt expecting much.

on the path to a .500 season after what...12 games??

i'm not saying that everything is peachy. i'm not saying that at all. clearly there are problems. i'm saying the opposite is NOT true. i'm saying the sky isn't falling. hell, in this thread alone we've arrived at the conclusion that Roger will be asking for a trade!!! Seriously, NJ...do you not see that as silly after 12 freaking games. The Yanks are 5-8...the Giants are 6-6...the Dogers are 10-2...Atlanta and Florida are just one game over .500, each. What in your experience of watching baseball makes you think these things will stay the same???

I understand your concerns for the offense. But frankly, last night we met an ace. Our ace hammered theirs...their ace hammered us. Both bullpens fared well. Both teams combined to give up one run in about 24 combined innings of pitching. I have concerns for this offense, too. Clearly they're missing their best hitter. And I have reason to believe McLane will go out and get another stick to help out. There's probably some tinkering with the lineup that would help maximize production as well.

So it's not that I think we're World Series bound!! It's that I don't think our season is doomed. It's that I don't think last year's Cy Young winner and hometown hero is going to demand a trade tomorrow. Remember how ridiculous that May/June thinking looked last October? I'm not saying for sure you'll see a repeat of that. But I'm saying let's watch some of this shake out before we give up on the season. And yes...if you're giving up on the season after 12 games, you're not much of a fan.

[Groogrux]

You know Max is serious when he capitalizes the beginning of his sentences. :D

Keep up the good fight, Max. I think I'm bowing out for a while. I watch baseball for the love of the game. Reading this junk is starting to ruin it for me.

This post not approved by pgabriel.

[msn]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
I watch baseball for the love of the game. Reading this junk is starting to ruin it for me.
Wow. The whining and hand-wringing here is absolutely tame compared to other places.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by msn
Wow. The whining and hand-wringing here is absolutely tame compared to other places.

I'm sure it is. Which is why I don't go to other places. :)

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rocketman95


Keep up the good fight, Max. I think I'm bowing out for a while. I watch baseball for the love of the game. Reading this junk is starting to ruin it for me.

This post not approved by pgabriel.

We all love the game...some of us hate to see our teams lose. This is a message board...where people post how they feel about certain things....the state of the Astros for instance.

I'm sorry that we all don't have the warm fuzzy outlook that you, Max, and some others do...perhaps if there was anything to go on other than a miraculous 36-10 stretch by a much better OFFENSIVE Astros team last year and a history of trades executed by a GM that is no longer here, we would feel differently.

We all realize that our pitching may be amongst the best in the league..but so far, our lineup is producing less than we naysayers evern expected.

So, please...don't act like we are raining on your parade here....we are fans (perhaps more passionate than you given how upset we are with the state of things) alike. I understand you dont like when guys pick on Drayton....fine. Bottom line is that we aren't very good RIGHT NOW (a phrase i used in the offseason when you guys told me to wait and see what happens between then and spring training)...and whether its Beltran's fault, Boras' fault, Bagwell's fault, Drayton's fault, Hun's fault, Tim's fault, your fault or my fault....I could care less....we are struggling and thats all I can see.

I see, therefore I post.

[msn]

Originally posted by NJRocket
I see, therefore I post.
You see, therefore you whine.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by msn
You see, therefore you whine.

good one:rolleyes:

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by NJRocket
I see, therefore I post.

Why don't you show me your posts when we were 4-1?

[MadMax]

What is warm and fuzzy about giving a team more than 12 games before you throw out the season?

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Why don't you show me your posts when we were 4-1?

ypu mean the one where i said something to the extent of " Its all nice to be 4-2, but we still cant hit the ball and we cant expect to keep winning like this since we have the least amt of runs scored?"? That one?

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by MadMax
What is warm and fuzzy about giving a team more than 12 games before you throw out the season?

whats pessimistic about talking all offseason about how bad our lineup will be only to see it be worse than expected?

[MadMax]

Originally posted by NJRocket
whats pessimistic about talking all offseason about how bad our lineup will be only to see it be worse than expected?

ok...then again i ask...WHY WATCH??? YOU WERE RIGHT...in your own mind, anyway. and you've used a grand total of 12 games to prove that. hell, you did it in about 8 games. so why bother???

i know you're a baseball fan...and it's why it baffles me that someone who has watched baseball year in and year out would start making declarations about the course of a 162 game season after 8 are in the books. again..think Yankees fans think this is where they'll end up?? see any trends there that would concern you, too??

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by NJRocket
whats pessimistic about talking all offseason about how bad our lineup will be only to see it be worse than expected?

Well, you admitted in your previous post that you were pessimistic when we were 4-1.

What is so hard to understand that we've played exactly 12 out of 162 games?

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by MadMax
ok...then again i ask...WHY WATCH??? YOU WERE RIGHT...in your own mind, anyway.

in my own mind? you think that we have a good lineup?

What is so hard to understand that we've played exactly 12 out of 162 games?

Gun to your head....do you think that the Astros will make the playoffs with this current lineup (including Berkman)? If yes, what are you basing it on other than there are 150 games left?

[msn]

Originally posted by NJRocket
whats pessimistic about talking all offseason about how bad
I realize your point is that you feel your position is realistic as opposed to pessimistic and I see where you're coming from...

It's just that from outside of the context of this discussion, this looks pretty funny in an ironic sort of way:
whats pessimistic about talking all offseason about how bad?

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by msn
I realize your point is that you feel your position is realistic as opposed to pessimistic and I see where you're coming from...

It's just that from outside of the context of this discussion, this looks pretty funny in an ironic sort of way:

not if you finish my sentence where it says "how bad our lineup will be only to see that its worse"

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by NJRocket
Gun to your head....do you think that the Astros will make the playoffs with this current lineup (including Berkman)? If yes, what are you basing it on other than there are 150 games left?

Here's a shocker...I don't know. I do know one thing is that you can't predict a season, especially when your team has two aces and two above-average pitchers in their starting five, 12 games into the season.

The funny thing is, the only part of our offense that's really been killing us, at least through the first two weeks, is clutch hitting. Not hitting in general, just clutch hitting.

You probably gave up on the Rockets after they started 6-11.

[msn]

Originally posted by NJRocket
not if you finish my sentence where it says "how bad our lineup will be only to see that its worse"
I know, I know--it's just that those first few words sounded pretty funny.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Here's a shocker...I don't know. I do know one thing is that you can't predict a season, especially when your team has two aces and two above-average pitchers in their starting five, 12 games into the season.

The funny thing is, the only part of our offense that's really been killing us, at least through the first two weeks, is clutch hitting. Not hitting in general, just clutch hitting.

You probably gave up on the Rockets after they started 6-11.

nice cop out

i wasnt thrilled with the Rockets start...but given that T Mac is one of the 3 best all around players in the league and Yao is a top 3 center, I knew we had the talent. The same way I look at the Yankees and say...they have about 19 proven all stars so it wont surprise me if they win the division and make the WS. However, looking at our lineup and seeing an aging 1B who's better days are CLEARLY behind him...a gritty 2B who quite possibly could repeat last yrs decent #s....a SS who couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat...a 3B batting cleanup who doesn't swing the bat...a catcher who will bat about the same as our best hitting pitcher...a blooming OF in Lane who actually could produce based on what I have seen (go figure, i am using a 12 game measuring stick to say Lane might have a good year)....a rookie in CF and an All star on the DL who we hope to have back to 100% by June....I dont see much.

[Groogrux]

How is that a cop-out? I've never stated one way or another that we'd make the playoffs. All I've ever said is that I wouldn't be surprised if this team competed based on it's pitching staff and the flexibility we'll have to make moves as we get closer to the trading deadline.

[msn]

Originally posted by NJRocket
nice cop out
Right. It really takes balls to whine this early in the season.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
How is that a cop-out? I've never stated one way or another that we'd make the playoffs. All I've ever said is that I wouldn't be surprised if this team competed based on it's pitching staff and the flexibility we'll have to make moves as we get closer to the trading deadline.

fine....but im asking you what your opinion is....you dont have to bet any money.....no different than asking if the Rox will beat the Mavs....do you think, based on the current lineup plus Berkman...that we will make the playoffs? i HOPE we do....i just dont think we have a top 4 team in the NL wit hthe way things are.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by NJRocket
fine....but im asking you what your opinion is....you dont have to bet any money.....no different than asking if the Rox will beat the Mavs....do you think, based on the current lineup plus Berkman...that we will make the playoffs? i HOPE we do....i just dont think we have a top 4 team in the NL wit hthe way things are.

Please see my post a couple above this one. I wasn't lying when I posted that.

That has been my feeling about this team ever since we lost Beltran and resigned Clemens. I'm not going to make up something to avoid my answer being called a cop out.

[SamCassell]

It would be a really boring forum if nobody talked about how we were doing until the All-Star break. :)

Max is right, the season's hardly over. It's still way too early to make a definitive statement about how the it's all going to turn out. But what fun is it to sit on your hands and say nothing? Right now, the pitching is superb and the offense is abysmal. Our combined pitchers are outhitting all but 4 of our everyday players (Lane, Biggio, Tavares, and Ensberg). Will that keep up? Of course not, but it appears to me early on that Ausmus's and Scott's hot spring training were illusory, and that Everett is miscast at the top of the order. Roger Clemens, meanwhile, is a freaking machine, and so is Lidge. I don't need a full season to evaluate either one of those guys. I'd love to get to the playoffs again just to give Roger another chance at game 7 in the NLCS.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by SamCassell
. Roger Clemens, meanwhile, is a freaking machine,

amen to that...i dont know where he finds it...but he is a freak of nature...watching him work out of that bases loaded jam was purely magical

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by SamCassell
It would be a really boring forum if nobody talked about how we were doing until the All-Star break. :)

I have absolutely no problem with that. I'm pretty sure no one does. I can easily say that the lineup right now, especially when it comes to clutch hitting, is abysmal. It's the "Chicken Little" reaction to that which annoys us. It's 12 games into a 162 game season.

Let's discuss why Everett shouldn't be leading off, Garner should've squeezed, Ensberg needs to take his ****ing bat off his shoulder and whether or not Luke Scott is a good player in Florida only. We don't have to declare the season a disaster right now though. Not 12 games into a 162 game season.

[msn]

Originally posted by SamCassell
Of course not, but it appears to me early on that Ausmus's and Scott's hot spring training were illusory, and that Everett is miscast at the top of the order. Roger Clemens, meanwhile, is a freaking machine, and so is Lidge. I don't need a full season to evaluate either one of those guys. I'd love to get to the playoffs again just to give Roger another chance at game 7 in the NLCS.
Agreed on all counts. Elsewhere (not here), I said during the spring that I didn't see Scott or Ausmus doing in April or May what they did in March. I also can't wait to see Biggio back at leadoff, or even Willy T at this point.

[Rocket Fan]

But he's is not saying this because of the 12 games.... he's saying it based on what he has thought all along..

it would be one thing if he thought one way, and changed his mind based on 12 games... but he is just repeating what he has said all along

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
But he's is not saying this because of the 12 games.... he's saying it based on what he has thought all along..

it would be one thing if he thought one way, and changed his mind based on 12 games... but he is just repeating what he has said all along

That doesn't make it any better. They play the games for a reason, you know.

[rrj_gamz]

This is still a good thread given last night...I can't believe we couldn't do anything with runners on 1st and 3rd and no one out...:mad: :mad: :mad:

Anyway, Clemens and the whole team has to be PO'd...

[redgoose]

We all now it and if you don't the Astros offense sucks! I could have told you that in the offseason, in fact i think i did. If you are to say otherwise, you are in serious denial.

Drayton needs to make a trade soon. We have the prospects to pull one off. We have both offense and pitching prospects.

Our starting pitching can't carry us to the playoffs for 1 reason. You have to score runs to win. How many games did RJ win last year?

If we add another bat, Bags, Berkman, and player X should give us the power we need. But we can't hope for a miracle 20 game come from behind streak again.

No, i'm not a bandwagon fan, just a realist who can easily point out the obvious.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by SamCassell


Max is right, the season's hardly over. It's still way too early to make a definitive statement about how the it's all going to turn out. But what fun is it to sit on your hands and say nothing?

what fun is it to incessantly whine and bitch?? do those guys look like they're having fun, to you???

[MadMax]

Originally posted by redgoose
We all now it and if you don't the Astros offense sucks! I could have told you that in the offseason, in fact i think i did. If you are to say otherwise, you are in serious denial.

Drayton needs to make a trade soon. We have the prospects to pull one off. We have both offense and pitching prospects.

Our starting pitching can't carry us to the playoffs for 1 reason. You have to score runs to win. How many games did RJ win last year?

If we add another bat, Bags, Berkman, and player X should give us the power we need. But we can't hope for a miracle 20 game come from behind streak again.

No, i'm not a bandwagon fan, just a realist who can easily point out the obvious.

1. do you feel the same way about the Braves?? they can't score runs either, but they have great pitching...and everyone seems to have them penciled in for the playoffs. the Dodgers had a helluva time trying to eek out runs last season..they ended up winning their division with GOOD pitching...not GREAT pitching. it happens that way, sometimes. it rarely happens the other way (winning with GOOD offense but average to below average pitching). as for your RJ example...it sucks. he was the ONLY pitcher on that team last year. The D-Backs didn't have good pitching last season...they had a good pitcher. That was it. They gave up more runs than every other team in the NL last season, save two. The Astros aren't in that boat at all.

2. who in the world are we going to find as a trading partner in April, goose?? i think we ultimately will add another bat. i have no idea WHO that will be. but i can tell you it won't be until June at the earliest.

[arkoe]

Originally posted by MadMax
what fun is it to incessantly whine and bitch?? do those guys look like they're having fun, to you???

Is this directed at me? I was just trying point out that we seem, in my opinion at least, not to score runs for Clemens. Granted, I found the 4.8 stat that Raven found to be a bit higher than I was expecting.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by arkoe
Is this directed at me? I was just trying point out that we seem, in my opinion at least, not to score runs for Clemens. Granted, I found the 4.8 stat that Raven found to be a bit higher than I was expecting.

i didn't have you in mind when i wrote it...but if you feel convicted by my statement then, yeah...i meant you. :D

[redgoose]

Originally posted by MadMax
1. do you feel the same way about the Braves?? they can't score runs either, but they have great pitching...and everyone seems to have them penciled in for the playoffs. the Dodgers had a helluva time trying to eek out runs last season..they ended up winning their division with GOOD pitching...not GREAT pitching. it happens that way, sometimes. it rarely happens the other way (winning with GOOD offense but average to below average pitching). as for your RJ example...it sucks. he was the ONLY pitcher on that team last year. The D-Backs didn't have good pitching last season...they had a good pitcher. That was it. They gave up more runs than every other team in the NL last season, save two. The Astros aren't in that boat at all.

The Braves had better hitters in 2004 than we have now. Andrew Jones, Chipper Jones, Giles, and JD Drew. We don't have a combined force like that plus they had a good mixture of speed. Not to mention the year before that they were the best offensive club in the league. The Dodgers run support did suck, but they were fortunate enough to have the break out season of Adrain Beltre and play in what i consider the worst division in baseball. Their closest competetor was the Giants and we all know their whole offense was Barry Bonds. As for the Dbacks, i am merely pointing out that last year's RJ could easily be this years Clemens.

2. who in the world are we going to find as a trading partner in April, goose?? i think we ultimately will add another bat. i have no idea WHO that will be. but i can tell you it won't be until June at the earliest.

I don't know who their trading partner should be. The Beltran deal caught everyone by suprise last year. There are plenty of good hitters in the last year of their contracts, those are the ones we have to ultimaly target. Or we can find a team that desperatly needs pitching like we need hitting (I.E. Texas) Yes, we may have to wait untill June, unitil half the teams realize their out of the race.

[MadMax]

redgoose -- i meant the braves this year. they're having a helluva time scoring runs.

So far...through 15 games...Atlanta has scored 51 runs and allowed 54 runs.


So far...through 14 games...Houston has scored 55 runs and only allowed 44 runs.


Yet everyone seems to think Atlanta is a contender to win that division and most "experts" I've seen have the Braves matching up against the Yanks in the World Series. Their lineup is nothing special. They have good pitching, but so far it's not nearly as good as ours has been. I'm thinking if they can be considered contenders, the Astros should be too.

BY THE WAY....The SF Giants had a fine offense last year. 2nd in the NL in runs scored, only 5 runs behind the Cardinals. They were beaten by a team with superior pitching, from start to finish.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by NJRocket
Gun to your head....do you think that the Astros will make the playoffs with this current lineup (including Berkman)? If yes, what are you basing it on other than there are 150 games left?

I'll take this one...

I think the Astros can make the playoffs with their current lineup (once Berkman is healthy). Looking at each division, there does not appear to be more than one team that MAY be dominant in each one (L.A., StL and FLA), thus if they don't win the division, they have as good of a chance to make the playoffs as a wild card as any other team.

Given their starting pitching as well as the dominance of Lidge they are better off in pitching than most teams. It is too early to tell about middle relief, but so far they have pitched well (regardless of the won/loss record). Unlike other years, they will manufacture more runs than they have in the past, although not enough to offset the loss of Beltran and Kent.

With their current lineup they will not score as much as last year. With their current pitching staff, they will hold other teams down more than last year. Defense appears to be a wash. Speed is definitely better.

As of today, I think they will finish second in the division, but have a good chance to advance as the wild card. I don't think we can count on a 36-10 finish to this season, so they will have to be better in their first 120 games than last year. I have no doubts (as long as everyone remains healthy) that they will do that.

[arkoe]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y56/aarkoe/dr20evil20pinky.jpg