Chron: Astros have no hard feelings for Beltran

[nWo34Life]

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/3132226

NEW YORK -- They had stopped off in pairs, offering Carlos Beltran hugs and congratulations. For a few seconds at least, it was as though nothing had changed since last October's thrilling postseason. But reality set in quickly.

Beltran is now with the New York Mets, and he felt awkward when introduced to the sellout crowd at Shea Stadium on Monday afternoon.

With his past right in front of him, Beltran smiled and waved to his former Astros teammates stationed along the third-base line for pregame introductions.

As if the Astros could forget, the Mets' public address announcer introduced Beltran by mentioning he tied the postseason record for home runs last October with eight. Beltran took his place along the line, waved at the Astros and smiled as Jeff Bagwell offered him a salute.

A second later, Beltran turned his back to face the crowd. The Astros were behind him. A beautiful memory perhaps, but a memory nonetheless.

"It was emotional for me because the experience I had in Houston was incredible," Beltran said. "God gave me the opportunity to play with good Christian people. I really got along well with all of them, and I enjoyed my time in Houston.

"It's a weird feeling to feel like you're playing against them. But this is part of the business, and this offseason was a difficult offseason for me."

Beltran, who mentions God in almost every sentence, went to bat in the first inning not knowing how he would feel facing his old teammates. He found comfort in Astros catcher Brad Ausmus' words.

"He told me that he missed me," Beltran said. "I said, `Man, I miss you too.' He wished me good luck and good health. I wished him luck and told him to stay healthy. It truly was a beautiful experience for me.

"Unfortunately, we couldn't get to the negotiations I was waiting for. But I think God has a plan for everybody. Maybe He had a plan that I wasn't expecting."

Beltran grew accustomed to appreciative hugs from his Astros teammates as he soared through the postseason last year.

"He's a good guy," Astros manager Phil Garner said. "There's no hard feelings at all. We wish him well, just not when he's playing us."

A respected foe

Even Roy Oswalt, who despises the practice of fraternizing with opposing hitters, smiles when Beltran's name is mentioned.

"He's the enemy now," Oswalt said. "It's different for sure after seeing what we all went through last year."

Other than maybe rookie Willy Taveras, who replaced Beltran in center field, the Astros were disappointed when Beltran spurned owner Drayton McLane's $108 million offer, instead signing a seven-year deal with the Mets for $119 million in January.

"Being a guy that's been around a long time, you realize that (movement) is the game now," Bagwell said. "Would we love to have him back? Yeah, because that type of player doesn't come around often."

Beltran, who will turn 28 this month, started his career in Kansas City. He broke in with the Royals in 1998 and remained with them until he was traded to the Astros in a three-team deal last June 24.

He was in Houston for only four months, leaving what some would call a lifetime of memories with his postseason excellence.

As Beltran tied Barry Bonds' record of eight home runs in a single postseason, the Astros got within a victory of the franchise's first appearance in the World Series. Beltran hit .455 with four home runs, two doubles and nine RBIs to help the Astros beat longtime postseason tormentor Atlanta in the National League Division Series, the first playoff series victory in franchise history.

Beltran hit .417 (10-for-24) with four home runs, five RBIs, 12 runs, eight walks and four stolen bases in the seven-game NL Championship Series against the Cardinals.

No-trade clause key issue

Beltran raised his stock tremendously heading into the free-agent market. McLane chased him into the last day (Jan. 8) the Astros could negotiate with him. Considering the higher taxes in New York, most everybody agrees the offers were essentially equal financially.

McLane refused to give Beltran a full no-trade clause, and Beltran maintains that was a deal-breaker.

"In reality, something I wasn't going to compromise was my stability," Beltran said. "That's what I did. Thank God I found stability in New York that I couldn't get in Houston."

McLane has said the no-trade clause was not the only hurdle between the parties, but he definitely learned his lesson and gave Lance Berkman a full no-trade clause last month as part of a six-year, $85 million deal.

Berkman is considered one of the best sluggers in baseball, but even he admits he isn't nearly as versatile or complete a performer as Beltran, a five-tool player who is considered one of the game's best defensive center fielders and base stealers.

Business is one thing. Camaraderie built in the postseason is something else.

"I really spent a great time over there being able to play in the playoffs and share moments with them," Beltran said. "I just feel happy to see all of them. I'm playing for the other side, but I just wish them all the best because they're great guys.

"They congratulated me for everything that I went through this offseason. They were happy for me."

Under Bagwell (since 1991) and Craig Biggio (since 1988), the Astros have had what is considered one of the warmest clubhouses in the majors.

"My teammates couldn't treat me any better when I was traded there," Beltran said. "They made me feel as though I had been part of the organization for many years. I wish the best for that organization, the front office and everybody. I hope they can live up to the expectations they have set as a team."

Rocket poses tough test

Part of the goal in Houston is to beat everybody, including the Mets. Beltran, hitting .300 with two homers and six RBIs in 30 at-bats as a Met, knows Roger Clemens won't concede him anything when a three-game series continues tonight.

"He's a great pitcher," Beltran said. "He has great preparation. He has the best preparation I've ever seen for a pitcher. Include Pedro (Martinez) in that category right there. I think those guys prepare well before the game, during the game.

"It was a great experience for me to play in Houston and see him pitch the way he did. I know Wednesday we're going to face him, and it won't be easy."

Astros Summary

Sneak a peek

On Saturday, Craig Biggio quietly saved the Astros' pitchers by making two catches in shallow right field, one to strand a runner in scoring position in the eighth inning and another to strand two runners in the ninth.

Those plays kept the score tied at 3, setting up Jose Vizcaino's walk-off double in the bottom of the ninth. Without Biggio's defensive gems, especially the one all the way toward the line in the eighth, the Astros would have definitely entered the bottom of the ninth trailing.

But Biggio was in danger Monday when right fielder Jason Lane ran into him and dropped a fly ball, leading to three unearned runs in the Mets' five-run eighth.

In most cases, infielders are supposed to bail out if the outfielder calls for the ball. But when a crowd such as the 53,663 at Shea Stadium makes it difficult to hear, the outfielder must concede or at least see where the infielder is.

"It's one those things that you learn to deal with over the years," manager Phil Garner said. "You've got a lot of noise in the crowd. The outfielder needs to sense. The infielder's taught to keep going until he hears the outfielder. He can't hear him, so the outfielder has to sort of peek and be able to see where the infielder is and know when he has the ball."

Biggio plans to use Monday's mishap as a learning experience.

"I thought I was kind of underneath," Biggio said. "And then the next thing you know, it's one of those things that we'll just talk about."

Added Lane: "It hit my glove. That's what we're trying to talk about right now — about trying to take a peek at each other. When it's loud like that, it's just tough to figure out (who will get) the ball when you have a little bit longer run or you're not sure who's going to get there easier.

"Obviously, we've worked on it in spring training, but we never have simulated that kind of noise."

Coming up

RHP Roger Clemens (1-0, 1.29 ERA) faces the Mets tonight. He is 3-5 with a 5.72 ERA in the regular season against the Mets and 0-3 with a 7.64 ERA in three regular-season starts at Shea Stadium. He has not appeared at Shea since June 15, 2002. LHP Kazuhisa Ishii (0-1, 6.75 ERA) will start for the Mets.

[Nick]

I'm glad Carlos got the memo from Boras to stick w/ the "no no-trade clause" company line.

Maybe eventually, he'll also mention the 20 other demands they dropped on Houston at the last second... things that could have been negotiated weeks before, if he truly wanted to stay.

[Joshfast]

I'm really glad that the astros have no hard feelings torward Beltran, but I sure the hell do.

[Nick]

Originally posted by Joshfast
I'm really glad that the astros have no hard feelings torward Beltran, but I sure the hell do.

They may say nothing to his face, but secretly, I bet you Clemens, Bagwell, Biggio and Roy (especially Roy) are a little ticked that he decided to bolt... especially since it was mainly those guys (and Berkman) that played the best in the 36-10 stretch to make the playoffs... not Beltran.... and they gave him the opportunity to shine on the huge stage (and bow, did he definitely made the most of it).

The only Astro who is probably at ease with Carlos not being here in the long-run is Lance... he got his big contract, and he will be the face of the Astros for the next 6 years... not Carlos.

[BigM]

Originally posted by Nick
I'm glad Carlos got the memo from Boras to stick w/ the "no no-trade clause" company line.

Maybe eventually, he'll also mention the 20 other demands they dropped on Houston at the last second... things that could have been negotiated weeks before, if he truly wanted to stay.

exactly, there is NO WAY the no trade clause was the only thing keeping them apart. carlos sounds like a great person but he never raved this much about the astros after the season or when we were trying to retain him. makes me believe he never wanted to return.

[BigM]

Originally posted by Nick
They may say nothing to his face, but secretly, I bet you Clemens, Bagwell, Biggio and Roy (especially Roy) are a little ticked that he decided to bolt

why especially roy?

[Nick]

Originally posted by BigM
why especially roy?

Roy is one of the biggest competitors we have on our team... in fact, he's probably borderline-psycho about coming out on top... and others in the clubhouse have taken note about it.

Take for example last year, when he got so riled up, he decided to plunk Michael Barrett... basically saying, if he was going to lose, he was going to take one of their guys out doing it. Bagwell jumped all over him for that... but at the same time, Roy came off as somebody you just don't want to mess with.

[bottlerocket]

I will still BOO greedy (1/7 deadly sins) Beltran when he visits the Juice Box.

[pgabriel]

I understand the responses in this thread will be mostly from upset Astro fans but Beltran played in this town for exactly half a season. Its not like I don't know, signing as a free agent in your home-town and then demanding a trade before your contract runs out because things didn't go the way you wanted.

[Nick]

Originally posted by pgabriel
I understand the responses in this thread will be mostly from upset Astro fans but Beltran played in this town for exactly half a season. Its not like I don't know, signing as a free agent in your home-town and then demanding a trade before your contract runs out because things didn't go the way you wanted.

Yay... lets make analogies to T-mac that don't make any sense. :rolleyes:

This would only really apply to ORLANDO fans... they're the ones that are bitter about T-mac, not us. Plus, T-mac didn't string them along for half the summer making them believe that he wanted to stay there... only to bolt at the last second. They got what they believed to be fair value for him... we got nothing from Beltran in the end.

Frankly, we're like Tornoto... T-Mac left them after they drafted him, nurtured him, and then he went for the big payoff (even if he played it off as "going home"). I don't care what you say about what we should feel... if a guy made a difference, you should always want to keep him.

Why are we talking about this again? This is strictly a baseball topic.... hell, Randy Johnson left us after having his best half of a season ever, just so he could go home and pitch and have 5 more great years.

[VesceySux]

I'm extremely bitter because I live in New York and have to hear about him constantly. Also, I'm pissed because the secondhand info (not third or fourth) I received from Beltran's personal handler (i.e. agent) about him "going to sign with Houston" was a freaking lie.

[tim562]

I have some seats out there close to centefield. I will let Beltran know exactly how I feel. Believe me, I will.

[NJRocket]

Its obvious that a no trade clause was one big part of the deal breaker. It became very obvious once we didnt hesitate to give one to Berkman. Were there others? Perhaps. I sure hope providing Carlos with his own personal pitching machine, a suite for road games, and a luxury box weren't the others. Don't make it like the no trade clause wasnt a factor....it was. Granted, Carlos chose a team that will have troule making the playoffs being in the same division as Fla, Atl and Phil...but that doesn't help us any.

[Colt45]

Originally posted by NJRocket
Its obvious that a no trade clause was one big part of the deal breaker. It became very obvious once we didnt hesitate to give one to Berkman. Were there others? Perhaps. I sure hope providing Carlos with his own personal pitching machine, a suite for road games, and a luxury box weren't the others. Don't make it like the no trade clause wasnt a factor....it was. Granted, Carlos chose a team that will have troule making the playoffs being in the same division as Fla, Atl and Phil...but that doesn't help us any.

Wow, an entire offseason and some people STILL don't understand that Beltran wasn't going to re-sign with the Astros under ANY circumstances.

Give it up, NJ. Carlos will never date you.

[Sishir Chang]

McLane refused to give Beltran a full no-trade clause, and Beltran maintains that was a deal-breaker.

"In reality, something I wasn't going to compromise was my stability," Beltran said. "That's what I did. Thank God I found stability in New York that I couldn't get in Houston."

McLane has said the no-trade clause was not the only hurdle between the parties, but he definitely learned his lesson and gave Lance Berkman a full no-trade clause last month as part of a six-year, $85 million deal.

Even if Boras had dropped several last minute factors into the negotiations whey didn't McLane at least agree to the no-trade clause to expose Boras as the greedy bloodsucker he is?

Instead Beltran's gone and McLane and the Stro's are left looking like idiots for not giving a guy who cracked a 45 year curse with a historic playoff performance a relatively common clause to keep him. McLane got played on this and was too boneheaded to recognize it.

[coma]

Originally posted by VesceySux
I'm extremely bitter because I live in New York and have to hear about him constantly.

VS-

So now that the season has actually started, has the fervor over Beltran died a bit? What kind of press does he get compared to the Yanks?

[desihooper]

I'm surprised that Jesus Ortiz did not drop the racecard and say that McLane gave Berkman a full no-trade because he's white. Wasn't he the same guy who pretty much called out Hunsicker and Tal Smith last year for being racist? I think this is the second contract that McLane included a no-trade deal (Pettitte last year and now Berkman). Obviously Biggio and Bagwell didn't need explicit no-trade clauses in their contracts because of their 5-10 status. I think that Boras was stalling for a better deal as he tried to "negotiate" last minute items into the contract (incentives and perks). I'm sure the Astros finally figured out how disingenuous this effort was on the part of Boras and Beltran and decided to fold before the stakes got raised even higher. Beltran will never be the winner he we last year with the Mets. That bully is a joke. I hope he enjoys his newfound A-Rod status for a few years while he puts up big numbers for a bottom-feeder team.

Now that he's got his contract worked out, would anyone be opposed to trading for him (I can hardly type that without cringing at the thought of losing more prospects)?

Wonder if Beltran will have some added motivation to go yard off of Clemens after he "called him out" during his press conference. If he does, I hope the Rocket has a lil something for him during his next AB.

I just thought of something, if Beltran takes Clemens yard, how reluctant would Piazza be to dig in right after?!? :D

[MadMax]

Originally posted by desihooper
I'm surprised that Jesus Ortiz did not drop the racecard and say that McLane gave Berkman a full no-trade because he's white.

nope..different guy

[Nick]

Originally posted by NJRocket
Its obvious that a no trade clause was one big part of the deal breaker. It became very obvious once we didnt hesitate to give one to Berkman. Were there others? Perhaps. I sure hope providing Carlos with his own personal pitching machine, a suite for road games, and a luxury box weren't the others. Don't make it like the no trade clause wasnt a factor....it was. Granted, Carlos chose a team that will have troule making the playoffs being in the same division as Fla, Atl and Phil...but that doesn't help us any.

Drayton already went on record saying that there was no way that a no-trade clause would ever be a deal-breaker. He also said that once they started bringing that up, along w/ issues of deffered money, etc., on the very last day... he knew that right then, that he'd been played for a fool.

Thus, it probably never got to the point to where Drayton said, "we'll waive the no-trade clause..." because they were never negotiating... it was the Astros putting up their offer, and Beltran's crew saying "we'll wait and see..." up until the freaking deadline, where it was blatantly obvious that had he wanted to go to houston, he wouldn't have waited all the way till then.

Drayton was pissed that he never got a chance to see and talk w/ Carlos in person... he was never extended an invitation to Puerto Rico... and when he wanted to issue a joint statement w/ Boras that Carlos wasn't going to sign here (this was around the time of the winter meetings), Boras convinced him that he was still one of the major players (and he was... the Cubs and Yankees were barely in the hunt, and the Mets hadn't even showed up yet).

[Svpernaut]

Originally posted by NJRocket
Its obvious that a no trade clause was one big part of the deal breaker. It became very obvious once we didnt hesitate to give one to Berkman. Were there others? Perhaps. I sure hope providing Carlos with his own personal pitching machine, a suite for road games, and a luxury box weren't the others. Don't make it like the no trade clause wasnt a factor....it was. Granted, Carlos chose a team that will have troule making the playoffs being in the same division as Fla, Atl and Phil...but that doesn't help us any.

Beltran had no intentions of signing with us... I think that's the obvious part. Him and Boras intentionally waited until the last minute to make a decision to get the most out of the bidding war. The players may say that they have no grudges, but they do... and the fans sure as hell do.

[bobrek]

As I understand things, McLane offered a "limited" trade clause which would allow Beltran to specify one of X teams he could be traded to. If I were a player, this would be the optimum deal. Not only do you get a big contract, you also get the "right" to choose what team you can be dealt to. If the teams sucks and they want to trade you, you have your pick of the litter.

[NIKEstrad]

Originally posted by nWo34Life

"It was emotional for me because the experience I had in Houston was incredible," Beltran said. "God gave me the opportunity to play with good Christian people. I really got along well with all of them, and I enjoyed my time in Houston.


I guess having to play with Brad Ausmus was a deal breaker as well.

[MadMax]

I think I told some of you that I had the pleasure of meeting the chaplain for the team last year. He told me that the guys on this team who met with him were really close...Beltran, Berkman, Everett, Lidge, Palmeiro, Pettitte and others I'm forgetting right now. I think that guy felt that Beltran's close ties with guys here would keep him here. That was as close as I got to "a source" throughout that whole mess.

[fya]

Old man mclane got played for a sucker and that's that. Purpura SHOULD have seen it all coming but he is new to the business so I'll cut him some slack.

Beltran and Boras are both little snakes in the grass and did what they had to do, but mclane failed HORRIBLY at plan "b" if there ever was one.

[DaDakota]

Am I the only one who is glad Beltran is gone, he is not close to being worth that much money.

He is a career .270 or so hitter, and great in the outfield, but he stunk for a good portion of his time in Houston, and seemed to not be the type of guy to focus all year.

He would have helped a lot, but not for that kind of money.

Good riddance Belty....

DD™

[Nick]

Originally posted by DaDakota
Am I the only one who is glad Beltran is gone, he is not close to being worth that much money.

I don't think the situation is as dire as it was when I found out that he wasn't coming... and I'm much happier that he ended up w/ the Mets, and not the Cubs... but overall, I would have LOVED to have this guy long-term.

Say what you will about his performance down the stretch of the regular season... I have never seen any ballplayer as hot as he was in the playoffs, when it really mattered the most.

[MadMax]

I'm certainly not glad Beltran is gone. But it's also certainly not the end of the world.

[Lil Francis]

Originally posted by Nick
Roy is one of the biggest competitors we have on our team... in fact, he's probably borderline-psycho about coming out on top... and others in the clubhouse have taken note about it.

Take for example last year, when he got so riled up, he decided to plunk Michael Barrett... basically saying, if he was going to lose, he was going to take one of their guys out doing it. Bagwell jumped all over him for that... but at the same time, Roy came off as somebody you just don't want to mess with. The Astros won like 18 straight home games after that lost to the Cubs. Oswalt might have saved the season with that one play.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by NIKEstrad
I guess having to play with Brad Ausmus was a deal breaker as well.

I suspect NOT playing with Ausmus would have been a deal breaker for Clemens.

[Svpernaut]

As usual on Astros threads I agree with Nick and Max. While I'm not happy we lost Beltran (anyone who performs like that in October is special), I never thought we were as bad off as people made us to be. I'm happy now because I see that Taveras has the ability, attitude and talent to be just as great a player as Beltran for a lot less dough.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Svpernaut
I see that Taveras has the ability, attitude and talent to be just as great a player as Beltran for a lot less dough.

i don't know if i'd go that far. but certainly the gap between the two is less than i might have thought...based solely on taveras' potential, of course. i don't think you're ever going to see beltran's power number from taveras. but you're going to get good defense in CF, a guy who seems to be able to get on base well, and lightning on the basepaths.

[Svpernaut]

Originally posted by MadMax
i don't know if i'd go that far. but certainly the gap between the two is less than i might have thought...based solely on taveras' potential, of course. i don't think you're ever going to see beltran's power number from taveras. but you're going to get good defense in CF, a guy who seems to be able to get on base well, and lightning on the basepaths.

I don't think Beltran will be the ultimate power hitter that most people think... I think that last season was just a special one for him. He has the ability to go yard but I imagine he'll stick around the 25-35 homerun range for the next 5 years, last year was his only season above 30. Now, I know Taveras isn't going to hit 30+ homeruns, but considering that he plays half of his games in the Juice Box he can easily hit 20+ until he has time to mature.

It should be noted too that Beltran's career stats aren't really that impressive, at least not 125 million dollar impressive. He had some decent home run years in his 5+ seasons in KC but he also struck a crapload in his time with KC including 3 seasons of 120+ strike outs. It took Beltran a little over 5 seasons to find his swing and patience, and I think Taveras can reach that much faster because of our veterns and Gary Gaetti.

Beltran is a special player, there's not denying that... but I think Taveras has just as much raw talent as Beltran did when he came into the league... let's just hope Taveras can progress a little faster then Beltran and be just as successful.

[bobrek]

I am not nearly as sold on Taveras as others may be. While I am quite pleased that he has been getting hits and getting on base, he certainly hasn't been stinging the ball. He has had a couple of bunts and some flairs/bloops.

Taveras has never done anything in the minors to indicate he will hit home runs. His best season was 4. Even with his speed he has shown no propensity for getting extra base hits, never hitting more than 15 doubles.

I hope I am wrong, but once Berkman is ready to play on an everyday basis, it would not suprise me in the least to see Taveras being the odd man out.

[NJRocket]

SVper-

please don't compare Willie and Carlos...while I understand that this may be your way of accepting losing Beltran, it makes you look silly

[DieHard Rocket]

Where is that vomit smiley when you need it?

Beltran may be a nice guy or whatever. That doesn't mean he and his agent aren't greedy bastards that turned their back on the Astros (whether he was worth the money or not). He was set to become one of the next beloved athletes in the city after last postseason...but turns it down for New York where he will receive, well, different treatment the minute he goes into a slump.

[VesceySux]

Originally posted by coma
VS-

So now that the season has actually started, has the fervor over Beltran died a bit? What kind of press does he get compared to the Yanks?

The initial Beltran fervor was insane with the NY press. It's died down now, as the Yankees are king here and dominate the back sports cover of the Post/Daily News. I was speaking more about Mets fans (many of which I work with) and their newfound "Beltran = God" attitude. They need to STFU in the worst way. (God, you'd think a 2-5 record would silence them, but you'd be wrong.)

[MR. MEOWGI]

"It was emotional for me because the experience I had in Houston was incredible," Beltran said. "God gave me the opportunity to play with good Christian people. I really got along well with all of them, and I enjoyed my time in Houston.

But those Christians didn't give me enough money!

Nice try, a$$hole.

[Rocket Fan]

Whether or not he'd have stayed.. I dont' really care.

Stars get a no trade clause...especially when you want them to take less money than being offered by another team..

Whether or not it was really an issue, I don't know.. but it should never have been GIVEN a chance to be an issue.

[Rocket Fan]

That's just my opinion though, I'm sure many of you disagree.

As for the article, it's hard to tell how the players really feel. There seem to be a lot of classy players on the astros team, and I doubt many of them would bash him in public even if they were mad at him..

On the other hand, they are players and know as well as anyone that it's about money in the end a lot of the times.. so they might understand.

[Sishir Chang]

Originally posted by MR. MEOWGI
But those Christians didn't give me enough money!


What was that line about a camel going through the eye of a needle..

Whoops gonna get this thead moved to the D & D.

I have a good friend in NYC who is a lifelong Mets fan and he wasn't happy at all with the Beltran and Pedro signings. He felt the Mets were spending too much to an aging inconsistent pitcher and a fielder and hitter who while having an amazing playoff run has yet to be proven to be a franchise player over the long run.

[BigM]

Originally posted by Nick
Roy is one of the biggest competitors we have on our team... in fact, he's probably borderline-psycho about coming out on top... and others in the clubhouse have taken note about it.

Take for example last year, when he got so riled up, he decided to plunk Michael Barrett... basically saying, if he was going to lose, he was going to take one of their guys out doing it. Bagwell jumped all over him for that... but at the same time, Roy came off as somebody you just don't want to mess with.

ok, gotcha. i thought you meant that roy and carlos had some kind of friendship off the field. yeah roy's competitive nature is one of the main reasons he's my favorite player on the team. you can tell he's fearless.

as for whoever said taveras could easily hit 20 home runs cause he plays at minute maid couldn't be further off. i'd be SHOCKED if he hit 10 in one season. not to say he can't be a really good player in other ways but he's not going to beat you with any kind of power. and as for minute maid, i don't have any numbers but i bet that centerfield takes away almost as many homeruns as left field gives up.

[Svpernaut]

Originally posted by NJRocket
SVper-

please don't compare Willie and Carlos...while I understand that this may be your way of accepting losing Beltran, it makes you look silly

I didn't compare the Beltran of today with the Taveras of today. If you read my statements I made the case that Taveras could easily match Beltran's early career numbers, and could very well progress faster then Beltran did because he isn't on a horrible club like the Royals. Besides, they aren't comparable because Beltran is making 11.5M this season while Taveras is making a whopping 316K... I'll take Willy's cost vs. production ratio any day.

I also made the comment that I don't see Beltran doing much better then last season ever again, it was his peak... he has his huge contract, he has nothing to work for. It will be easy for him to shine on another horrible team like he did in KC. By the way, I couldn't ever look silly posting in the same forums as you.

;)

[Harrisment]

Originally posted by Svpernaut
By the way, I couldn't ever look silly posting in the same forums as you.

;)


Oh I'd say you're well on your way....:p

[NJRocket]

Taveras could easily match Beltran's early career numbers,

based on what?

I'll take Willy's cost vs. production ratio any day.

and so would/did Drayton...and now we will struggle to make the playoffs

I also made the comment that I don't see Beltran doing much better then last season ever again, it was his peak... he has his huge contract, he has nothing to work for. It will be easy for him to shine on another horrible team like he did in KC

baseless comments...he is 27..he has at least 3 or 4 yrs left of 30/100/100 (and thats conservative) left in him

[Svpernaut]

Originally posted by NJRocket
based on what?

What I've seen so far. Beltran's FIRST THREE SEASON STATS (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6132&context=batting) are easily obtainable.

Originally posted by NJRocket
and so would/did Drayton...and now we will struggle to make the playoffs

I'll quote you by stealing your "baseless comments" tag. There is no proof that Drayton DIDN'T do everything in his power to keep Beltran around. We have the best pitching in the NL Central, and our top three can go head to head with any other top three in the league. Feel free to ask the Marlins, Angels and Diamondbacks how they won their Series.

Originally posted by NJRocket
baseless comments...he is 27..he has at least 3 or 4 yrs left of 30/100/100 (and thats conservative) left in him

The comments are not baseless. He's in the NL East now and has to face the Marlins, Phillies and Braves countless times this season, which is far better pitching then he ever saw in KC... The NL pitchers also know more about him then they did last season. 30/100/100 a year isn't worth 125 million for 7 years.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by Svpernaut
What I've seen so far. Beltran's FIRST THREE SEASON STATS (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6132&context=batting) are easily obtainable.


You wrote that "Taveras could easily match Beltran's early career numbers".

Beltran hit 22 HRs in his first full season. Based on Taveras' career minor league numnbers, he won't come within 15 of that.

The only stat of of Beltran's first year numbers that Taveras will probably reach or surpass (providing he plays the whole year).

Stolen bases.

[pgabriel]

Originally posted by Nick
Yay... lets make analogies to T-mac that don't make any sense. :rolleyes:

This would only really apply to ORLANDO fans... they're the ones that are bitter about T-mac, not us. Plus, T-mac didn't string them along for half the summer making them believe that he wanted to stay there... only to bolt at the last second. They got what they believed to be fair value for him... we got nothing from Beltran in the end.

Frankly, we're like Tornoto... T-Mac left them after they drafted him, nurtured him, and then he went for the big payoff (even if he played it off as "going home"). I don't care what you say about what we should feel... if a guy made a difference, you should always want to keep him.

Why are we talking about this again? This is strictly a baseball topic.... hell, Randy Johnson left us after having his best half of a season ever, just so he could go home and pitch and have 5 more great years.

My analogy did apply to Orlando fans. They have a reason to be bitter. Toronto fans have a reason to be bitter in the T-Mac and Vince Carter situation. Orlando fans had a right to bitter when Shaq left.

I was dissapointed he didn't sign here but I'm definitely not bitter. He has no obligation to this team. He only played here for half a season after being traded. He didn't choose to be here and he certainly wasn't here long enough to say he was "nurtured" in this organization. Just like Randy Johnson it was a good mid-season trade that helped this team out but both guys were at points of their careers where they deserve to go to teams of their choice. He played here for HALF a season. Playoff run or not it was just HALF a season.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by NIKEstrad
I guess having to play with Brad Ausmus was a deal breaker as well.

I am missing something. Please explain.

[Surfguy]

Regardless of how you feel about Beltran and whatever the "truth" is about the failure to re-sign him, I'm not sure it is proper to boo him for leaving given he is the primary reason we won our first playoff series and came one game from the World Series. Take away his bat...and we lose that series to the Braves AGAIN. He did more for us in 4 months than anyone has ever done on our team as far as the playoffs go. He didn't choke. I'm pissed he's not on our team but he had a huge impact in the little time he was here so, for that, I'm thankful.

[Saint Louis]

I don't want Taveras to try and match Beltran's numbers. Never going to happen. Taveras is not a power hitter. I would rather Taveras shoot for becoming a Kenny Lofton like player and assume the leadoff role for years to come.

[Puedlfor]

I wouldn't be so pissed if he hadn't about the Astros chances of signing him.

At least you knew where you stood with Johnson - he wanted to pitch in Arizona, and said as much.

That's the part that makes me angry with him - the lying.

[BigM]

Originally posted by Puedlfor
I wouldn't be so pissed if he hadn't about the Astros chances of signing him.

At least you knew where you stood with Johnson - he wanted to pitch in Arizona, and said as much.

That's the part that makes me angry with him - the lying.

exactly. i'm guessing 95 percent of the people pissed at him now wouldn't hold any grudge had he been straightforward. it's not that he left for another team, it's that he dicked us around forever then left.

[Master Baiter]

**** Beltran

[SamCassell]

Don't tell me the Boras negotiating tactics surprised you. That's his m.o.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by SamCassell
Don't tell me the Boras negotiating tactics surprised you. That's his m.o.

didn't totally surprise me. and after the fact...particuarly RIGHT after the fact when the deadline passed...i knew what the root cause of the whole situation was. but this was really the first time i saw boras up close. i knew his reputation...but never followed one of his free agents closely during an offseason.

and frankly, this one may have taken the cake.

[SamCassell]

I thought his play of the Beltran "sweepstakes" was masterful. Probably added 40 million to the fair-market contract. He destroyed the Rangers, literally, in the A-Rod deal. He somehow got a team to buy into Magglio Ordonez without a medical exam. And he single-handedly altered the landscape for first-round picks. Boras is an ass, but he gets top dollar for his clients at the expense of laying waste to anything in his path. But the thing is, teams have to be complicit to negotiate with him, on his terms. The Stros got burned this time.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by SamCassell
I thought his play of the Beltran "sweepstakes" was masterful. Probably added 40 million to the fair-market contract. He destroyed the Rangers, literally, in the A-Rod deal. He somehow got a team to buy into Magglio Ordonez without a medical exam. And he single-handedly altered the landscape for first-round picks. Boras is an ass, but he gets top dollar for his clients at the expense of laying waste to anything in his path. But the thing is, teams have to be complicit to negotiate with him, on his terms. The Stros got burned this time.

complicit..unless he's outright lying to them. not just bluffing...but material misrepresentation stuff.

[SamCassell]

Well that's true, you negotiate in good faith and all. I agree with you there. But, and I'm sure you've seen this, there are some attorneys who you know aren't entirely honest in negotiations, civil or criminal. I've negotiated pleas and deals with guys who I didn't trust in the slightest. It's just one of those things, you can't pick who's on the other side of the table. But past history certainly factored into my method of dealing with those guys, and I knew I couldn't trust their word at face value.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by SamCassell
Well that's true, you negotiate in good faith and all. I agree with you there. But, and I'm sure you've seen this, there are some attorneys who you know aren't entirely honest in negotiations, civil or criminal. I've negotiated pleas and deals with guys who I didn't trust in the slightest. It's just one of those things, you can't pick who's on the other side of the table. But past history certainly factored into my method of dealing with those guys, and I knew I couldn't trust their word at face value.

absolutely. happens all the time.

[Groogrux]

So, what would happen if all the general managers took the same step as Ken Williams, the White Sox G.M.? I believe he said last year that he'd never go after a Boras client again.

Anybody who admires what Boras does is shady themselves. What's ironic about baseball is that only the fact that there are a couple of teams who can afford to pay whatever to whomever saved a franchise that was nearly ruined by Boras and to some extent the owner and G.M.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
So, what would happen if all the general managers took the same step as Ken Williams, the White Sox G.M.? I believe he said last year that he'd never go after a Boras client again.

Anybody who admires what Boras does is shady themselves. What's ironic about baseball is that only the fact that there are a couple of teams who can afford to pay whatever to whomever saved a franchise that was nearly ruined by Boras and to some extent the owner and G.M.

I love that idea

I'd love to see it where the majority of teams took that stance....let Boras negotiaite with the yanks, red sox and Mets.