Terry Schiavo dead

[Sir Jackie Chiles]

RIP

[wouldabeen23]

at least this fiasco of a dog and pony show is over....I hope Terri has found peace

[giddyup]

That poor woman. RIP.

[nWo34Life]

RIP.

:(

The Lord only knows the truth and he'll judge them when their time comes.

[Falcons Talon]

May she finally rest in peace.


+

[RocketMan Tex]

May Terri Schiavo rest in peace, and may George W. Bush, Jeb Bush, Tom Delay, Bill Frist, Randall Terry and Jesse Jackson rot in hell for using her as a political pawn.

[F.D. Khan]

RIP

One thought that I had was that if they were going to let her die wasn't there an easier way than starving her for 13 days??

No one know how conscious she is or how much pain she feels. Wouldn't it have been more humane to give her some drugs to kill her quickly instead of starving her??

But in reality there are hundreds of Terri Shiavo's accross every city in Hospice's. I don't know why this one recieved more attention than the others.

[SamFisher]

She was dead 15 years ago.

[GRENDAL]

RIP

[andymoon]

Originally posted by F.D. Khan
RIP

One thought that I had was that if they were going to let her die wasn't there an easier way than starving her for 13 days??

No one know how conscious she is or how much pain she feels. Wouldn't it have been more humane to give her some drugs to kill her quickly instead of starving her??


I agree. Unfortunately euthanasia is illegal and will be as long as this administration is in charge (the Justice Department is fighting the state of Oregon on their relatively new right to die law).

May Terri Schiavo have peace.

[RocketMan Tex]

Originally posted by F.D. Khan

But in reality there are hundreds of Terri Shiavo's accross every city in Hospice's. I don't know why this one recieved more attention than the others.

Because (1) she had no living will and (2) her widower disagreed with her parents about whether she would have wanted to be kept alive in the vegitative state she was in.

I sincerely hope that the result of all of this will be that everyone who has a will also has a living will or directive.

[Invisible Fan]

Originally posted by F.D. Khan
RIP

One thought that I had was that if they were going to let her die wasn't there an easier way than starving her for 13 days??

No one know how conscious she is or how much pain she feels. Wouldn't it have been more humane to give her some drugs to kill her quickly instead of starving her??


Such as lethal injection?

I hope she lived in peace for those past 15 years.

[4chuckie]

RIP

This i sone instance where I disagree with my republican friends. I believe the (majority of) medical experts who said she was in a PVS and therefore will go with what her husband asked.

[ivanyy2000]

This thing is sooo ridiculous.

1. Why does she have to starve to death? If court approved her death, then let it be quick, easy and painless.

2. Why didn't her husband give the custody to her parents? Her parents want to take care of her, let them do it! It seems not about the money, there aren't much left. I guess it is just because Michael Schiavo hates his in-laws so much.

Personally, I agree she was dead 15 years ago and death is probably a relieve to her, but there are just too many things don't make sense to me.

[A-Train]

Now, she can use the golden PSP to fight the armies of hell...

[Master Baiter]

Originally posted by A-Train
Now, she can use the golden PSP to fight the armies of hell...
That is so wrong but I still laughed. I watched that episode this morning.

They should have let her die a long time ago. Hopefully she has found some peace. Her parents should be ashamed.

[Nick]

Originally posted by ivanyy2000
2. Why didn't her husband give the custody to her parents? Her parents want to take care of her, let them do it! It seems not about the money, there aren't much left. I guess it is just because Michael Schiavo hates his in-laws so much.

Its not because he hates his in-laws... it was because he loved his wife so much, and he knew her wishes better than her parents did.

If you're married, or if you are going to be married, imagine how you'd feel if your wife's parents (who don't have close to the amount of contact w/ her that you have) decided that they knew what she would really want, and they called you a no-good liar. You'd be pretty upset w/ them too.

[JayZ750]

Johnny Cochran didn't get an RIP till the 10th or 11th reply.

[Cohen]

Originally posted by SamFisher
She was dead 15 years ago.

Thank you God. We were all wondering.

[Sishir Chang]

I myself have supported the legal and medical rulings and believe that Terry Schiavo's passing has been proper in respect to her own wishes, the law and the founding principles of individual liberty, separation of powers and federalism of this country.

Still I would wish peace to the Shindlers. Their determination to keep a loved one alive in the face of all odds isn't necessarily something to be ridiculed but to be appreciated. Hopefully they can move on and mourn their daughter as she should've been 15 years ago.

I wish peace upon Michael Schiavo and his family and hopes this allows him to move on with his life.

I wish peace on everyone else who has bitterly fought this case. Hopefully this will spark greater understanding of end of life situations.

Finally I wish peace upon Terry Schiavo. I never met her and know very little about the person she was. From what I know she was an unfortunate victim of a tragic medical situation and then just as tragically thrust into potentially one of the most controversial legal cases of this country.

I don't believe in Heaven or Hell but I do believe in a soul and wherever that soul is I hope its at peace.

[leroy420]

Originally posted by RocketMan Tex
May Terri Schiavo rest in peace, and may George W. Bush, Jeb Bush, Tom Delay, Bill Frist, Randall Terry and Jesse Jackson rot in hell for using her as a political pawn.

[edwardc]

Originally posted by Nick
Its not because he hates his in-laws... it was because he loved his wife so much, and he knew her wishes better than her parents did.

If you're married, or if you are going to be married, imagine how you'd feel if your wife's parents (who don't have close to the amount of contact w/ her that you have) decided that they knew what she would really want, and they called you a no-good liar. You'd be pretty upset w/ them too.

If he loved her so much why did he father 2 other kids .

[Sishir Chang]

Originally posted by edwardc
If he loved her so much why did he father 2 other kids .

Crikey!

Lets keep on crucifying the man for being human. If it had been almost 10 years since your signficant other had been in a situation where they couldn't relate to you physically or emotionally and pretty much every doctor was telling you they weren't going to get better how long would you be willing to stay celebate?

I don't believe that Mr. Schiavo did the noblest thing but he did the understandable thing. I believe that one can try to move on while still honoring the wishes of a someone who you loved.

[SamFisher]

Originally posted by Cohen
Thank you God. We were all wondering.

Were you really wondering Cohen? It wasn't that hard to figure out. All it takes is basic background reading on PVS.

I know, from some of your breathless reports in the other thread, that you've been watching Fox News Channel and the parade of fools (John Edwards, former pretend psychic host of Crossing Over, not would be VP, was my favorite) who have been claiming that her husk was going to miraculously resuscitiate itself, but that wasn't going to happen.

[SamFisher]

Originally posted by edwardc
If he loved her so much why did he father 2 other kids .

You're right, he should have gotten a vasectomy and sat by her bed and watched the involuntary reactions of his former wife's body for as long as medical science would allow, no matter what cost.

[polypheus]

Originally posted by Sishir Chang
Crikey!

Lets keep on crucifying the man for being human. If it had been almost 10 years since your signficant other had been in a situation where they couldn't relate to you physically or emotionally and pretty much every doctor was telling you they weren't going to get better how long would you be willing to stay celebate?

I don't believe that Mr. Schiavo did the noblest thing but he did the understandable thing. I believe that one can try to move on while still honoring the wishes of a someone who you loved.

Once Michael Schiavo decided to start another family with another woman, he was in an adulterous relationship and should no longer have been considered to be Terri's husband. It was wrong of Michael to move on yet still continue to remain married to Terri technically just to keep control of Terri and put her to death to spite her in-laws.

There's nothing wrong with Michael wanting to move-on, remarry and start a new family. But he should have DIVORCED her and left her to her parents custody and walked away. What he did was not honorable and not what most people would have done in this situation.

[Sishir Chang]

Originally posted by polypheus
Once Michael Schiavo decided to start another family with another woman, he was in an adulterous relationship and should no longer have been considered to be Terri's husband.

According to the law though there isn't grounds for a divorce if neither parties ask for it.


There's nothing wrong with Michael wanting to move-on, remarry and start a new family. But he should have DIVORCED her and left her to her parents custody and walked away. What he did was not honorable and not what most people would have done in this situation.

I'm not saying this is noble but how do you know most people wouldn't do the same thing we are all human with both human aspirations to nobility and human weaknesses? This is an unusual case and I don't think anyone knows what they would do until they were in it.

For that matter has it ever occured to you that in spite of his human weaknesses the reason Michael Schiavo is putting up with this is because he actually does want to honor Terry Shiavo's wishes and is willing to put up with the hate and legally wrangling to honor those wishes?

The truth is unless you have ESP and a time machine none of us know what Michael Schiavo or Terry Schiavo truly think. All we have to go on with is the determination of courts who have exhaustively litigated this case and are unambiguous in their rulings.

That's why we have a judicial system to determine these situations.

[SamFisher]

Originally posted by Sishir Chang


The truth is unless you have ESP and a time machine none of us know what Michael Schiavo or Terry Schiavo truly think.

.

Sishir, you are in luck, my friend, my aforementioned friends at FNC have half of this equation covered:

clip (http://mediamatters.org/static/video/foxfriends-200503250006.wmv)

http://mediamatters.org/items/200503250006

[bnb]

It's curious how discussion on this issue has morphed into a euthanasia debate. (when it isn't a partisan poo fling). Isn't it really a 'custody' issue? If her parents and her husband were in agreement here, would the courts be involved at all? I can imagine the grief of her parents, who want her kept alive, being forced to watch their daughter die. And being powerless to stop it. And in that sense, the second part of Poly's post makes sense. Why not let them 'take care' of her.

Yet if he felt strongly that her wishes were being denied??? (but why did it take 15 years to press this?). And if he's the appointed 'decision maker' then shouldn't he be allowed to make that 'decision.' (subject to appropriate medical opinions, of course).

Crazy that this took the path it did. And in that sense, I'm glad it's over. The whole thing stopped being about 'her' long ago.

[rm365]

Originally posted by bnb
It's curious how discussion on this issue has morphed into a euthanasia debate. (when it isn't a partisan poo fling). Isn't it really a 'custody' issue? If her parents and her husband were in agreement here, would the courts be involved at all? I can imagine the grief of her parents, who want her kept alive, being forced to watch their daughter die. And being powerless to stop it. And in that sense, the second part of Poly's post makes sense. Why not let them 'take care' of her.

Yet if he felt strongly that her wishes were being denied??? (but why did it take 15 years to press this?). And if he's the appointed 'decision maker' then shouldn't he be allowed to make that 'decision.' (subject to appropriate medical opinions, of course).

Crazy that this took the path it did. And in that sense, I'm glad it's over. The whole thing stopped being about 'her' long ago.

according to the law, all that matters is what Terry would have wanted to do. Would she have wanted to be kept alive in that situation or not, would she want to be intubated, feeding tubes, etc. Whoever best knows what she would have wanted (a living will or someone designated to take care of her medical decisions... or if none of those are available, based on past conversations with whomever) thats what decides if she is kept alive. Its called substituted judgment I think. Its sad for her parents but they aren't allowed to make medical decisions for her. Unfortunately in this case, the parents and her husband disagreed on what they think Terry would have done. Issues like this are usually settled in the hospital when the family and doctors and ethnics committee members all meet.

[giddyup]

Originally posted by andymoon
I agree. Unfortunately euthanasia is illegal and will be as long as this administration is in charge (the Justice Department is fighting the state of Oregon on their relatively new right to die law).
News flash: euthanasia was legal before the Bush Administation.

[basso]

Originally posted by SamFisher
(John Edwards, former pretend psychic host of Crossing Over, not would be VP, was my favorite)

you know, i was wondering, if the erstwhile would-be VP could channel an upborn child, why couldn't he channel terri?

[basso]

Originally posted by RocketMan Tex
May Terri Schiavo rest in peace, and may George W. Bush, Jeb Bush, Tom Delay, Bill Frist, Randall Terry and Jesse Jackson rot in hell for using her as a political pawn.

i'm sure they're saving you a place.

there's some interesting news in a press release from the National Organization on Disability last november 9, after the election. there was a shift of almost 25 points in GWB's support among the disabled from 2000 to 2004. 16% of that shift occured after the florida supreme court struck down "Terri's Law."

http://www.nod.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=page.viewPage&pageID=1430&nodeID=1&FeatureID=1470&redirected=1&CFID=1622961&CFTOKEN=27807975

--
People with Disabilities Give Unprecedented Support to President Bush

November 9, 2004

Vote 2004Pre-election survey’s 6.5 percent winning margin reflects a dramatic break from past voting

WASHINGTON, DC, November 9, 2004—In a dramatic shift in support toward a Republican presidential candidate, a clear majority of voters with disabilities chose George W. Bush over Sen. John Kerry in last week’s national election. According to a survey conducted by telephone between October 29 and November 1, 2004 by Harris Interactive®, likely voters1 with disabilities preferred President George W. Bush over Senator John Kerry by 52.5 percent to 46 percent. One percent of likely voters1 with disabilities preferred Ralph Nader.

“It’s a major break from the past that I think comes as a surprise to almost everyone,” said N.O.D. President Alan Reich. “It’s a very interesting result that many find confounding especially given past voting patterns, but there were clearly new dynamics at play this year.”

“Concerns over terrorism and over personal and national security—issues that were not factors in past elections—were very large factors this year. And the strength of the turnout among conservative voters undoubtedly brought more Republican-leaning people with disabilities to the polls than voted in the past. Not to be ignored is the strength of the senior vote, and many in our community are seniors. So the net result of votes cast by people with disabilities was the same as what we saw nationally, only more so. Still, it’s an unexpected result,” Reich said.

Reich also said that overall turnout by voters with disabilities was an additional factor that may have helped President Bush. Turnout among likely voters with disabilities was estimated by Harris to be 52 percent, significantly higher than the 2000 voter turnout estimate of 41 percent.

Nationally, President Bush won the popular vote by a margin of just 2.5 percent: 50.5 percent to 48 percent. His winning margin among voters with disabilities, according to the survey taken just prior to the election, was 6.5 percentage points.

In past presidential elections, people with disabilities have consistently supported Democrats over Republicans by solid majorities. According to Harris Interactive, in 2000, Vice President Al Gore was preferred 56 to 38 percent by likely voters over then-Governor George W. Bush. Bill Clinton carried the disability vote 69 percent to 23 percent over Senator Dole in 1996, and 52 percent to 29 percent over President H.W. Bush in 1992.

“It would be a mistake to assume that the election results represent a permanent, fundamental shift in the voting behavior of people with disabilities,” Reich concluded. “The needs are great and the votes of Americans with disabilities must be earned.”

The poll results are part of a larger National Organization on Disability survey project studying voter preferences, issues of concern, and barriers to voting during this election season. This survey project has been made possible by a grant from Carnegie Corporation of New York.

[SamFisher]

Originally posted by basso
i'm sure they're saving you a place.

there's some interesting news in a press release from the National Organization on Disability last november 9, after the election. there was a shift of almost 25 points in GWB's support among the disabled from 2000 to 2004. 16% of that shift occured after the florida supreme court struck down "Terri's Law."



Yes, retards voted overwhelmingly for Bush






(.........bash me mightily)

[RocketMan Tex]

Originally posted by basso
i'm sure they're saving you a place.



See ya there, nutbush. First round is on me!

[bobrek]

Originally posted by giddyup
News flash: euthanasia was legal before the Bush Administation.

I think you meant to type "illegal".

[Cesar^Geronimo]

SamFisher just became the first person ever on my igonore list.

[JuanValdez]

+

[SamFisher]

Originally posted by Cesar^Geronimo
SamFisher just became the first person ever on my igonore list.

:mad: Man, what a tragic consequence of my ill considered actions. You just missed a quality post, here's a little ditty I just wrote, which you won't see (unless you peek of course).

APRIL is the cruellest month, breeding
Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
Memory and desire, stirring
Dull roots with spring rain.
Winter kept us warm, covering
Earth in forgetful snow, feeding
A little life with dried tubers.
Summer surprised us, coming over the Starnbergersee
With a shower of rain; we stopped in the colonnade,
And went on in sunlight, into the Hofgarten,
And drank coffee, and talked for an hour.
Bin gar keine Russin, stamm' aus Litauen, echt deutsch.
And when we were children, staying at the archduke's,
My cousin's, he took me out on a sled,
And I was frightened. He said, Marie,
Marie, hold on tight. And down we went.
In the mountains, there you feel free.
I read, much of the night, and go south in the winter.

[giddyup]

Originally posted by bobrek
I think you meant to type "illegal".
No, andymoon was making it sound like it was the fault of this Bush Administration that euthanasia was illegal. I was being sarcastic to make a point. Coulda gone the other way....

[andymoon]

Originally posted by giddyup
News flash: euthanasia was legal before the Bush Administation.

I think you meant ILlegal, but you are right. No state had passed a right to die law until Bush was in office. Now that Oregon has such a statute, Bush's Justice Department is fighting against it.

[Cesar^Geronimo]

actually --- I didn't really add Sam to my ignore list.

I just find the term "retard" highly offensive. I work with alot of people struggling with downs sydrome, dp, cerbral palsy etc.... Every day they fight for exceptance and for people to look beyond the label "retard".

I assume that they statement was made out of ignorance not malice.

[SamFisher]

Originally posted by Cesar^Geronimo
actually --- I didn't really add Sam to my ignore list.

I just find the term "retard" highly offensive. I work with alot of people struggling with downs sydrome, dp, cerbral palsy etc.... Every day they fight for exceptance and for people to look beyond the label "retard".

I assume that they statement was made out of ignorance not malice.

It was rude to say and borderline unacceptable.

[thegary]

I have learned
To look on nature, not as in the hour
Of thoughtless youth; but hearing oftentimes
The still, sad music of humanity,
Nor harsh nor grating, though of ample power
To chasten and subdue. And I have felt
A presence that disturbs me with the joy
Of elevated thoughts; a sense sublime
Of something far more deeply interfused,
Whose dwelling is the light of setting suns,
And the round ocean and the living air,
And the blue sky, and in the mind of man:
A motion and a spirit, that impels
All thinking things, all objects of all thought,
And rolls through all things. Therefore am I still
A lover of the meadows and the woods,
And mountains; and of all that we behold
From this green earth; of all the mighty world
Of eye, and ear, - both what they half create,
And what perceive; well pleased to recognise
In nature and the language of the sense
The anchor of my purest thoughts, the nurse,
The guide, the guardian of my heart, and soul
Of all my moral being.

[Band Geek Mobster]

Why do the good always die so young?

[giddyup]

Originally posted by Band Geek Mobster
Why do the good always die so young?
I thought you died two years ago... Disney must have been rough?!

[andymoon]

Originally posted by SamFisher
It was rude to say and borderline unacceptable.

Take out the "borderline" and this statement is accurate. "Retard" is a word best left in the past like the N word as well as all the other derogatory racial slurs out there.

[Sishir Chang]

Originally posted by andymoon
Take out the "borderline" and this statement is accurate. "Retard" is a word best left in the past like the N word as well as all the other derogatory racial slurs out there.

I agree.

Sorry Sam but was going over the line.

[Sishir Chang]

Originally posted by basso
i'm sure they're saving you a place.

there's some interesting news in a press release from the National Organization on Disability last november 9, after the election. there was a shift of almost 25 points in GWB's support among the disabled from 2000 to 2004. 16% of that shift occured after the florida supreme court struck down "Terri's Law."


So I suppose now you will be fully supporting issues designed to help the disabled like strengthening the Americans with Disabilities Act, increasing funding for Medicare and Medicaid, repealing the Fed. ban on funding stem cell research, removing caps on medical malpractice litigation and allowing reimportation of prescription drugs from other countries.

[Cohen]

Originally posted by SamFisher
Were you really wondering Cohen? It wasn't that hard to figure out. All it takes is basic background reading on PVS.
...


While you're at it, I'd like a few more questions asked.

For instance, how is it that some people miraculously recover with similar or even reportedly worse symptoms? Was the chance for recovery after 6 months in PVS, 1 in 200? Less? If you were Terri's father, wouldn't that be good enough for you?




You're so bitter about Republicans that you can't even take moment to empathize with Terri's parents. You criticize me for my 'beathless' reports in the other thread, but I'd rather side with some parents who are trying to keep their daughter alive and give her every chance at life than a husband who's already moved on... or liberals with a chip on their shoulder.

As for Fox, it's on in my house only when my children's grandparents visit so I saw a total of about 5 minutes of a report a couple of weeks ago. Sounds like you watch it more than I do.

[glynch]

RIP, Terri Shiavo. It is 15 years too late for her immediate relatives to stop feuding I suspect.

Hopefully we can start to address such issues of the roughly 20,000 kids who starve to death daily in the world. Kids it should be noted that still have the brain power to feel pain and despair..


Oh well, probably back to following whether Michael Jackson went to court in pajamas or slacks.

We do have Hilary talking about video games so maybe that can be the focus of the network news for awhile.

Maybe someone can pass a law that keeps both sides of the Shiavo family from profitting from the books and TV movies.

[SamFisher]

Originally posted by Cohen
[B]While you're at it, I'd like a few more questions asked.

For instance, how is it that some people miraculously recover with similar or even reportedly worse symptoms? Was the chance for recovery after 6 months in PVS, 1 in 200? Less? If you were Terri's father, wouldn't that be good enough for you?


Cohen, I'm pretty damned convinced by the findings of the courts who have exhaustively litigated this for several years and ruminated on these facts.

But anyway, please enlighten me on these miraculous cases (I guess the courts, and the various experts on whose opinions they relied, must have not liked them so much

Since you are now a medical expert though, i invite, I beg, I plead you to address the report of the doctor that Jeb appointed to save her and he ended up arriving at the same conclusion most rational people have.

Sishir Chang has posted it for us and referred you to it numerous times in the other thread. I don't believe you ever addressed it, once, you just say "yeah but her family and the nobel prize guys said this!!!!!!!". Are you purposefully ignoring it because it exposes the quackery that is the foundation of your argument?




You're so bitter about Republicans that you can't even take moment to empathize with Terri's parents.

I empathize with them, and recognize them for what they are, people who need counseling.

[/QUOTE]

so you'd rather indulge their fantasies and their quack svengalis than respect what has been determined to be their daughters wishes? Fortunately for her (body, and her parents in the long run as well) others much wiser and well versed in this than you and I in the situation have decided differently, numerous times.

[Sir Jackie Chiles]

Looks like I kinda knew what I was doing when I posted this in the D&D instead of the Hangout...

[DonnyMost]

Peace be to her and her family.

[SamFisher]

Somebody took time out from shrimp scampi to try to save a life!

http://www.terrisfight.net/press/gibson.jpg

[bnb]

how swell of mel...

[Lil Pun]

Now they are arguing over her burial.

[DonnyMost]

Originally posted by Lil Pun
Now they are arguing over her burial.

Of course. Cause human beings are petty a**holes. :mad:

[jcantu]

I think that atleast one good thing will come out of this whole situation: a more aware public with regards to advanced directives. Everyone should have advanced directives, no matter how young or healthy, so situations like this can be avoided.

I saw an estimate that between 10 and 20% of Americans have advanced directives. This is entirely too low of a number. Its suprising that even at a hospital like M.D. Anderson, many of the patients do not have directives. IMO it is due to doctors not feeling comfortable asking patients about that situation, and patients not wanting to talk about it either.

[mateo]

Someone needs to start a poll:

More bizarre period:

1. Culture Club
2. Culture of Life

Both have their popular hits (and massive mistakes) and are full of weirdos.

[Invisible Fan]

Originally posted by Cohen
While you're at it, I'd like a few more questions asked.

For instance, how is it that some people miraculously recover with similar or even reportedly worse symptoms? Was the chance for recovery after 6 months in PVS, 1 in 200? Less? If you were Terri's father, wouldn't that be good enough for you?



After 15 years, everyone involved might have a sense of closure from this ordeal. Maybe not the ideal sense given the circumstances, but how long does it take before people are allowed to move on?

Maybe if the technology permits, such as stem cell regeneration, there can be better odds for victims of PVS, but that's one tall order for people to recover after that long.

[Cohen]

Originally posted by SamFisher
Cohen, I'm pretty damned convinced by the findings of the courts who have exhaustively litigated this for several years and ruminated on these facts.

You so expertly avoided the question: do the courts always do whats right for everyone? (How 'exhaustively litigated' was the OJ trial, anyway?)

A hypothertical scenario: say not enough evidence exists to convict a husband of a crime injuring his wife to where she cannot speak ... can the courts overrule what he says his wife's wishes were? Just answer the question. You seem so convinced of the court's infallibilities. Shall we review the history of horrible outcomes where the courts were bound by law to make a horrible decision?


But anyway, please enlighten me on these miraculous cases (I guess the courts, and the various experts on whose opinions they relied, must have not liked them so much

Look'm up. Or just look up the meta-analysis.


Since you are now a medical expert though, i invite, I beg, I plead you to address the report of the doctor that Jeb appointed to save her and he ended up arriving at the same conclusion most rational people have.

I don't know who Jeb appointed and I don't care. That's where you have a serious problem ... your hangup WRT Republicans blurs your vision.


Sishir Chang has posted it for us and referred you to it numerous times in the other thread. I don't believe you ever addressed it, once, you just say "yeah but her family and the nobel prize guys said this!!!!!!!". Are you purposefully ignoring it because it exposes the quackery that is the foundation of your argument?

I care about what her family said because they're of more concern to me than what the Conservatives want or what the bitter Liberals don't want. Clinical research is not 'quackery', and I don't know what 'nobel prize winnners' you're talking about. Want to elaborate?


I empathize with them, and recognize them for what they are, people who need counseling.

Condescending, abhorrent bullsh*t.


so you'd rather indulge their fantasies and their quack svengalis than respect what has been determined to be their daughters wishes? Fortunately for her (body, and her parents in the long run as well) others much wiser and well versed in this than you and I in the situation have decided differently, numerous times.


I'm no 'medical expert' and I never claimed to be. Another instance where you must be confusing me with someone else. But after working in the healthcare industry for 15 years assessing medical quality of care and watching how medicine evolves, I can assure you that folks like you put far too much confidence in 'specialists', and far too much confidence in their abilities to see what new advances are coming around the corner. Look through the research on MCS and PVS. A lot of 'we're not sure' or 'we don't know'.

How about : http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0D17FF345F0C7B8CDDAB0894DD404482
' New Signs of Awareness Seen In Some Brain-Injured Patients'

Again. they're not certain what it means for an MCS patient, but it might be that they just cannot respond. Isn't that a MATERIAL enough issue to make you wonder about how much the 'specialists' really understand?

As for the 'quack svengalis', they may be the ones who imagine the next breakthrough therapy.

Remember 'Lorenzo's Oil'?

Lorenzo's oil finally proven to work

The controversial do-it-yourself medicine that inspired the heart-rending movie Lorenzo's Oil has finally been proved to work. The new research ends years of uncertainty about the treatment and demolishes the claims of experts who repeatedly said it was a worthless quack remedy.

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2851


I hope none of your children contract any serious illness. Apparently, unlike Lorenzo's parents, you would simply accept the 'experts' opinions and give up.

[Sishir Chang]

Originally posted by Cohen
Originally posted by SamFisher
You so expertly avoided the question: do the courts always do whats right for everyone? (How 'exhaustively litigated' was the OJ trial, anyway?)

Cohen;

I can understand your concern but what would you have us do? Ignore court rulings?

This case has been so widely litigated and reviewed all the way up to the USSC that its hard to consider it a legal mistake. The OJ criminal trial was only tried once and when it was somewhat reviewed in the civil trial he was found guilty. This case has been tried and appealed repeatedly and found to be in accord with the strictest interpretation of the law.

What you're asking for is for the courts to ignore the law or interpret it very very broadly.

[SamFisher]

Cohen: this marks the second time you have, for some reason, attempted to invoke the criminal justice system in an attempt to defend your position. I'm not sure why you do this, but it is either out of ignorance as to the way it works or a deliberate attempt to distract and discredit via irrelevance. Either way it is immaterial. The courts, who made findings of fact, reviewed the doctors asssessments, and even reviewed the assessments of the "power of prayer" quack doctors that you hold in high esteem. They did so more patiently and extensively and exhaustively than you did. But keep invoking OJ if it makes you feel better...:confused:

I find it particularly amusing about how you accuse me of "expertly avoid the question" that the law is always right. Are you in a PVS yourself? THis is from the other thread, directly responding to a post of yours, in which you similarly injected the irrelevant criminal law analogy:

[i]Originally posted by SamFisher
I'm pretty confident that there's an exhaustive legal record on this of affidavits, testimony, and expert reports on this.

None of this is decided on a "reasonable doubt" standard either, by the way - it wasn't a criminal trial. It was pre-trial motions, the standards for which vary.

I'm not arguing that the law is always right, I'm just saying that your presumption that "well, the family didn't get its chance, and 444 doctors out 1000 say this, and etc" --- all of that has been heard and considered. http://bbs2.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=92647&perpage=30&pagenumber=3

Perhaps you missed it? I find it hard to believe since you continued posting in that thread afterwards.

Anyway, speaking of avoiding, I'm glad you've avoided putting forth credible evidence of brain dead people recovering from PVS by positing that i look them up. That really helps your cause. Where should I start? TomDelay.gov? Cultureoflife.com? Help me out Cohen. You're the one who knows about this.

You've also, of course, avoided, for about the nth time, addressing the voluminous credible medical evidence against the vegetable rights crusade you irrevocably committed yourself to. Read the report Cohen. It's pretty convincing. It's alot more convicing than the Nobel Prize Winners you cite - and by this I mean this gentleman:

[Originally posted by Cohen
Is that true? I heard a doctor interviewed that said he spent a total of 10 hours evaluating her, and claims that she can be rehabilitated to the point that she could even speak again. She's not in a vegetative state. If I heard correctly, the doctor claimed that 33 doctors feel that she can be rehabilited, more than the few that didn't. He also has videos of patients who were worse off than Sciavo and learned to speak again.

This gentleman that you refer to as influencing your opinion, based I guess off some interview you saw on some cable news channel (I guess not fox, ha), billed by the pro PVS crowd (her family & various politicians) as a Nobel Prize winner, or a Nobel Prize nominee, is of course neither - other than some born-again christian who runs a pseudo-medical/religious website and obviously has his own agenda.

But then you've got "Lorenzo's Oil" in your corner. That would be great if we were talking about adrenoleukodystrophy. But of course we're not.

People have challenged you before to post peer-reviewed credible evidence, and you have nothing. You basically made a snap-judgment based on some interview of a grieving family member who was spouting off delusional silliness in a moment of emotional stress and now you're stuck with it for better or worse .... actually take out "better" and just leave in worse.

You can continue to defend this view, but I suggest you get acquainted with the power of prayer you have aligned yourself with because this is an argument you're not going to win on your own.

Edit: I also like how you enjoy framing the issue as a bunch of bitter liberals making trouble. I guess that's why 70-80% of the country thought this whole thing was an embarrassing fiasco, which correspondingly caused GWB, who, 2 weeks ago was saving vegetative liives by signing bills in his pajamas, to retreat off the scene like a beaten dog after his approval rating dropped because of it.

[Sishir Chang]

I posted this in the 'Schiavo Neurologists' thread but will do it again here since its such a big topic of debate.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7328639/

This link has an image from her 2002 CAT scan.

[lalala902102001]

Letting someone starve to death and making it headline news is just plainly wrong.

[Mr. Brightside]

"what about the people in rwanda"

[Cohen]

Originally posted by Sishir Chang
Cohen;

I can understand your concern but what would you have us do? Ignore court rulings?

This case has been so widely litigated and reviewed all the way up to the USSC that its hard to consider it a legal mistake. The OJ criminal trial was only tried once and when it was somewhat reviewed in the civil trial he was found guilty. This case has been tried and appealed repeatedly and found to be in accord with the strictest interpretation of the law.

What you're asking for is for the courts to ignore the law or interpret it very very broadly.


No. I don't want court rulings to be ignored. But courts are bound by law, which is not always what's 'right'.

In this instance, I'm still at a loss as to why the husband did not just divorce Terri and let the family care for her. Although it is possible that a young woman would mention to her husband that she didn't want to be kept alive by machines, I seriously doubt they went into great detail and she considered whether that would include removing a feeding tube.

[Cohen]

SamFisher,

You've still expertly avoided the leag question that I posed. Regardless of whether these were 'pre-trial motiions'. The question was if there was possible wrongdoing, would it require a criminal conviction of the husband before he loses the right to resolve medical decisions for his wife.

As for the medical issues, we'd still be bleeding patients if everyone had your opinion WRT medicine. You know why I brought up Lorenzo's oil ... to show that your approach to medicine, the meekish 'this is what the experts say and all other views are quackery' ... is dangerous and wrong. You act like I have no medical grounds to stand on, but what do you stand on? Go to MedLine and enter CMS/PVS. AGAIN, it's a poorly understood area of medicine. Hence, we will contionue to see reports like the one about whether MRIs indicate that some CMS patients may actually be aware but lack the ability to respond. Or the recent research that shows that the stems cells in the brain can grow new neurons...contrary to what the 'experts' have claimed. Neurogenesis...I'll be d*mned.

The undeniable fact: we have a LOT more to understand about this condition and there will ultimately be therapies and even cures for many of these people.

Or you can just trust the 'experts' and accept that there will never be a cure and stop trying to hold out 'false hope' and send everyone to counseling.

[codell]

Originally posted by Cohen
[B]In this instance, I'm still at a loss as to why the husband did not just divorce Terri and let the family care for her.

My wife and I talked about this the other night. I told her that I would be devestated if I knew she didn't fulfill my wishes not to be kept alive in a PVS and instead just signed away her guardianship over to my parents just to appease them so they could keep my alive.

If you told your wife the same thing, would you have a problem with her signing you over to your parents, despite your wishes?

[Cohen]

Originally posted by Sishir Chang
I posted this in the 'Schiavo Neurologists' thread but will do it again here since its such a big topic of debate.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7328639/

This link has an image from her 2002 CAT scan.


Prediction: in our lifetimes, the pace of breakthroughs in this medical specialty will accelerate.

BTW, what does a flat-EEG mean? Apparently, some brain functions are still working. Weren't people once considered 'gone' when the heart stopped? After all, there's no way to re-start a heart, right?

No doctor can claim that they know where the technology will be at in only 5 years. IIRC, we only learned about adult brain neurogenesis in the last couple of years. That will prob spur additional research (they already identified a protein that may help the stem cells survive in parts of the brain where they would normally die off).

In only 10 years we'll be substantially ahead of where we are now.

[Cohen]

Originally posted by codell
My wife and I talked about this the other night. I told her that I would be devestated if I knew she didn't fulfill my wishes not to be kept alive in a PVS and instead just signed away her guardianship over to my parents just to appease them so they could keep my alive.

If you told your wife the same thing, would you have a problem with her signing you over to your parents, despite your wishes?

We are lucky because we have the opportunity to discuss this with our spouses and parents in depth now so there are no misunderstandings. And FWIW, I will let my feelings be known, but we cannot know all of the circumstance in advance so my wife will have to use some judgement. If it was just the 2 of us, I'd make the decision outright now but we have children involved and their welfare comes first.

[Sishir Chang]

Originally posted by Cohen
No. I don't want court rulings to be ignored. But courts are bound by law, which is not always what's 'right'.

Yes, I totally agree the law isn't always right but it is still the law and in our society we abide by the rule of law. The alternative of asking the judges to go against or beyond the law opens up a can of worms that in most cases would be detrimental to society and at the least should be considered judicial misconduct.

For conservatives, and I don't know if you are one of these, this is a case of be careful what you wish for. Conservatives for decades have railed against 'judicial activists' for broadly interpretting the law and so have been seeking to put conservative justices. Well they got what they wished judges who rule on the law strictly and the rulings on this case have been legally strict.


In this instance, I'm still at a loss as to why the husband did not just divorce Terri and let the family care for her. Although it is possible that a young woman would mention to her husband that she didn't want to be kept alive by machines, I seriously doubt they went into great detail and she considered whether that would include removing a feeding tube.

I was wondering about that too but this is a much more complicated question that simply for Mr. Schiavo to walk away. For one it seems most likely to me that he really does love her and wants to do his utmost to honor what he believes her last wishes. The amount of trouble and hate that he's gotten don't seem worth it to go for this and we know he's already turned down money and all of the settlement and insurance money is gone.

The second thing that I've been reading is about that even if he did divorce her the process would still go on. Apparently the legal rulings aren't on his behalf but are written on her behalf and that the court decisions have centered on her desier to not be maintained that way. So legally Michael Schiavo has no official say in this since the courts are interpretting Terry Schiavo's wishes.

[No Worries]

Originally posted by lalala902102001
Letting someone starve to death and making it headline news is just plainly wrong.
Terry died due to dehydration not starvation.

I say put a Big Mac, large order of fries, and a large chocolate shake in front of Terry and let her have at it. But wait, she can't feed herself or swallow when soemone else feeds her. The question begs whether anyone would really want to "live" like this. I would not and my living will confirms it.

[No Worries]

Originally posted by Cohen
No. I don't want court rulings to be ignored. But courts are bound by law, which is not always what's 'right'.
So the redux of what you are saying is that doctors and the court system are not perfect. Due process in our legal system and 99 out of 100 doctors could be flat out wrong. But what choice do we have? Do we as a society keep patients in a condition similar to Terry's alive (costing $100,000 a year) waiting for the miracle cure that is 1, 10, 20, 50, or 100 years away?

And do you concede the gross injustice of keeping Terry alive for the 15 years or so if it has really been against her wishes?

[thegary]

this thread is reminding me of million dollar baby.

[SamFisher]

Originally posted by Cohen
SamFisher,

You've still expertly avoided the leag question that I posed. Regardless of whether these were 'pre-trial motiions'. The question was if there was possible wrongdoing, would it require a criminal conviction of the husband before he loses the right to resolve medical decisions for his wife.


No. You don't know what you are talking about and are making no sense. I can't avoid what doesn't make sense. I'm not avoiding anything. I'm saying impartial individuals have weighed these questions intensively - you made a snap judgment based on the emotional bleatings of a bunch of folks with an agenda who think baby jesus is going to come down and revive the dead.


As for the medical issues, we'd still be bleeding patients if everyone had your opinion WRT medicine.
What is your proposed course of treatement here doctor? Crystals or prayer circles?


You know why I brought up Lorenzo's oil ... to show that your approach to medicine, the meekish 'this is what the experts say and all other views are quackery' ... is dangerous and wrong. You act like I have no medical grounds to stand on, but what do you stand on? Go to MedLine and enter CMS/PVS. AGAIN, it's a poorly understood area of medicine. Hence, we will contionue to see reports like the one about whether MRIs indicate that some CMS patients may actually be aware but lack the ability to respond. Or the recent research that shows that the stems cells in the brain can grow new neurons...contrary to what the 'experts' have claimed. Neurogenesis...I'll be d*mned.

The undeniable fact: we have a LOT more to understand about this condition and there will ultimately be therapies and even cures for many of these people.

Or you can just trust the 'experts' and accept that there will never be a cure and stop trying to hold out 'false hope' and send everyone to counseling.
I stand on the opinion of multiple reputable physicians who has studied the case and have come to the same conclusion. The condition of this individual was not poorly understood by any means. She was brain dead for 15 years. It was a husk, being kept alive by machines. Every possiblity of her recovery was considered by the various tribunals & physicians, and yes, those so-called experts are a lot more trustworthy on the science of this issue than you are, judging by your posts on the subject.

[Bogey]

The main question about this issue that keeps popping into my head is: "Are the parents wanting to keep her alive for her benefit or for their's?"

[Sishir Chang]

Originally posted by Cohen
Prediction: in our lifetimes, the pace of breakthroughs in this medical specialty will accelerate.


Cohen;

You're correct there but you have to ask the question in Terry Schiavo's case how long is long enough? She's been kept alive due to extraordinary efforts of her doctors and hospice staff. A potential cure for regrowing brain matter is probably decades away. She's been in this state for 15 years and as time goes will continue on a long slow decline. At some point is it just cruel to keep her alive?

I've largely sided with the remove feeding tube side because of the legal issues involved and have wrestled with the personal implications. I've come to the conclusion that I wouldn't want to be kept "alive" like that for such an inordinate amount of time even if I knew that in 10 years their would be a cure. For one I would wake up in a totally different world with most of the people I knew gone or different and I would've already lost decades of my own life in limbo and wouldn't be the same person myself.

That's not a fate I want and not one I would want to impose on others. For this case all I can go is that the ourts have ruled this was her wish and as one who respects the rule of law I will abide by that.

[No Worries]

Mess with the bull you get the horns ...

Schiavo Family, Husband Spar Over Funeral

TAMPA, Fla. (AP) - The medical examiner completed the autopsy of Terri Schiavo on Friday, clearing the way for the release of the body to her husband, who plans to cremate her remains and bury the ashes without telling his in-laws when or where. ...

[lalala902102001]

Originally posted by No Worries
Mess with the bull you get the horns ...

Schiavo Family, Husband Spar Over Funeral

TAMPA, Fla. (AP) - The medical examiner completed the autopsy of Terri Schiavo on Friday, clearing the way for the release of the body to her husband, who plans to cremate her remains and bury the ashes without telling his in-laws when or where. ...

Wow, just wow.

[B-Bob]

Originally posted by SamFisher
I can't avoid what doesn't make sense.
Yeah, apparently not, judging by your thread argument selection strategeries.

By the way, this is sadly NOT B-Bob typing. I am B-Bob's underpaid caretaker, as of 1/1/05, when he drank himself into a persistent vegetative state (PVS for those in the industry). You may have noticed that he doesn't post much now, or maybe there has been little difference.

Mrs. B-Bob pretty much wants to remove the feeding tube, but she enjoys putting sliced jalepenos through the tube when she's punchy.

Anyway, there are two other factions. B-Bob's parents don't care at all. His father simply said to me "just don't bring his drooling ass back to Texas" and hung up. The last faction is his boss. I'll call her Mrs. X. Mrs. X is getting some sort of PC credit in the office for having a vegetable on staff and she doesn't want to lose that cache.

B-Bob himself only wrote a cryptic line in his will for such cases:
"In case of PVS, do not let Sam Fisher into the home. Do not let anyone put the animal costumes on me. What you must do is go to the clutchfans BBS and ask for advice. Those good, sensible people will know what to do."

So here I am, asking for your input. If this deserves to just be deleted or something, that's fine. I'm not really used to using a BBS. Hey, what are these? :mad: :p :cool: oh I like that one :cool: :cool:

Anyway, please let me know what you think. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Maurice

[Deckard]

Double post!

[Deckard]

Originally posted by B-Bob
Yeah, apparently not, judging by your thread argument selection strategeries.

By the way, this is sadly NOT B-Bob typing. I am B-Bob's underpaid caretaker, as of 1/1/05, when he drank himself into a persistent vegetative state (PVS for those in the industry). You may have noticed that he doesn't post much now, or maybe there has been little difference.

Mrs. B-Bob pretty much wants to remove the feeding tube, but she enjoys putting sliced jalepenos through the tube when she's punchy.

Anyway, there are two other factions. B-Bob's parents don't care at all. His father simply said to me "just don't bring his drooling ass back to Texas" and hung up. The last faction is his boss. I'll call her Mrs. X. Mrs. X is getting some sort of PC credit in the office for having a vegetable on staff and she doesn't want to lose that cache.

B-Bob himself only wrote a cryptic line in his will for such cases:
"In case of PVS, do not let Sam Fisher into the home. Do not let anyone put the animal costumes on me. What you must do is go to the clutchfans BBS and ask for advice. Those good, sensible people will know what to do."

So here I am, asking for your input. If this deserves to just be deleted or something, that's fine. I'm not really used to using a BBS. Hey, what are these? :mad: :p :cool: oh I like that one :cool: :cool:

Anyway, please let me know what you think. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Maurice
Good to see you, Maurice. Welcome to the board. Tell B-Bob that an android is thinking of him. And tell his wife to try habanero peppers. Maybe it will shock him back to, well, whatever he was when he was supposed to be "himself." And this is for you.



Enter Maurice

Ooh, ah
Ooh, ah
Ooh, ah
Ooh, ah

Enter Maurice
My dearest darling, come closer to Maurice so I can whisper
sweet words of epismetology in your ear and speak to you of
the pompitous of love. Even though our road is rough and
long, for you to leave me at this time darling, must surely
be wrong. So come back and reconsider one more thing. Maurice
is the only one to make your little heart sing.

Ooh mama ooh, ooh mama ooh
How can you do the things that you do?
Ooh mama ooh, ooh mama ooh
I'm gonna buy you some brand new shoes
I'm gonna buy you some brand new shoes

Enter Maurice
I don't know why you won't make no more apple pie. Since you've
been gone it's been starvation mama, ever since I lost my
probation. Don't you remember the time that you ended up in
jail? That's right darling, it was Maurice who went your bail.
Now, there's just one more thing that I want to say before you turn
and walk away.

Bom Bom Bom Bom do wah da di dit
Bom Bom Bom Bom do wah da di dit
Bom Bom Bom Bom do wah da di dit...

Darling please, don't walk out that door, you must reconsider
darling, you've done it so many times before. It's not too late,
It's never too late, precious one, for Maurice to love you.
Just remember sweetheart, I bought myself a gun and I will be
the only one.

Steve Miller


http://www.gangster-of-love.com/songrtb.html#0



Keep D&D Civil!!
And Save B-Bob!!!

[Sishir Chang]

Originally posted by B-Bob
Sincerely,
Maurice

Wow I didn't know that Mo-T was B-Bob's guardian. I guess he still wanted to maintain his Houston connection, plus access to the hospitals well stocked pharmacy.;)

[SamFisher]

Space Cowboy, simply because you've been deposed, after being deposed, dont tarry. Pull the plug, gangster of love!

http://images.forbes.com/media/moreon/greenberg_maurice.jpg

[haven]

In the interests of not starting a new thread...

...something similar is occurring in Brittain, though I think the facts are more favorable to the injured party.

http://society.guardian.co.uk/health/story/0,7890,1464933,00.html

I'm sure this goes on all the time without all the resulting publicity.