Delay's Hypocrisy...again.

[krosfyah]

DeLay's own brush with end-of-life tragedy (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/3104831)

Well, it turns out Delay's father was in a persistent vegitative state (while he was in his 3rd term) when the family decided not to keep him alive any further using machines. Tom Delay, with the rest of the family, was in the room when he passed.

Delay is an a$$!

I don't want to make light of his father's death...but with all due respect...Delay has contributed to the circus event that is Schaivo so I can't feel too much pitty for Delay himself.

[MadMax]

I think many would argue there's a distinction between removing a feeding tube and removing a ventilator and/or starting dialysis. A pretty significant difference, actually.

Don't get me wrong, though...I'm no Tom DeLay fan.

[krosfyah]

Originally posted by MadMax
I think many would argue there's a distinction between removing a feeding tube and removing a ventilator and/or starting dialysis. A pretty significant difference, actually.



Really? Do people inherently draw a morality line between dialysis + feeding tube and only feeding tube?

I think we are seeing why Delay is facing ethics problems. I'd call Delay's grand-standing on the Schaivo case a serious ethical lapse.

But to be honest, I've been fortunate enough to not know anything about this subject. So maybe this is common knowledge and I just missed the boat previously.

[Trader_Jorge]

Not the same situation at all. You did in fact miss the boat, krosfyah.

[Svpernaut]

Originally posted by krosfyah
Really? Do people inherently draw a morality line between dialysis + feeding tube and only feeding tube?

I think we are seeing why Delay is facing ethics problems. I'd call Delay's grand-standing on the Schaivo case a serious ethical lapse.

But to be honest, I've been fortunate enough to not know anything about this subject. So maybe this is common knowledge and I just missed the boat previously.

Not even close... there are huge differences between the two. For one Terri Shaivo is "active" which means she can move/moan/speak/interact, while his father was in complete vegetative state, meaning he just layed there. You also failed to compare the age difference between the two... his father had a full life, while Terri was struck young.

To be honest I don't really have a stance on this issue because it's a "he said she said" situation, but I don't see the harm in letting her parents take care of her. I know if it was my wife, and I had a new family (he as a girlfriend and kids with her) I'd let her be and move on with my life... if they want to keep hope alive, so be it.

I do find it unlikely though that she would have requested to be "mercy killed" because she was supposively a devout Catholic, and last I checked with catholocism is is a big no-no to take your own life.

Either way, your comparison (and other left winger's) to the two cases is way off base.

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by Svpernaut
Not even close... there are huge differences between the two. For one Terri Shaivo is "active" which means she can move/moan/speak/interact,
Either way, your comparison (and other left winger's) to the two cases is way off base. Actually she can't interact, and can't even swallow on her own.

It is debatable to say that she can speak as well. There have been those that say she can, but others say it is nothing but reflexive noises. 5 of the 6 doctors who actually examined her in person say that the only part of her brain that wasn't dead controled only the most basic of functions such as breathing, and organ function, etc.

[mateo]

Its extremely simplistic and idiotic to believe that those who wish Terry to be left in peace are left-wingers.

Read some polls.

[langal]

I heard that Schiavo can, infact swallow. The court order prevents people from attempting to feed her water or solids in any way, shape, or form. Sticking a buffalo wing in her mouth would result in an arrest.

I don't think Delay is being hypocritical in this situation. If Shiavo's parents shared Michael Schiavo's intentions, then there would be no controversy at all. I don't think Delay's case involved any sort of legal battle between family or ex-familiy members.

What seems to anger people here is that the parents DO want her to live and ARE willing to pay for it. If the husband simply relinquished his custodial rights, then there would be no controversy whatsoever.

While I personally think that he should do such a thing, the law has spoken and should be upheld.

I hear that the next controversy would be over the corpse. Husband wants it cremated immediately against the wishes of her parents. Again, he may have every legal recourse to enforce such an action - but it may not necessarily be the moral thing to do. He should at the very least allow the parents to decide how they want her interred.

[Svpernaut]

Originally posted by mateo
Its extremely simplistic and idiotic to believe that those who wish Terry to be left in peace are left-wingers.

Read some polls.

You misread, I was stating the "left wing view" of Delay's supposed "hypocrisy" by standing for Terri while pulling the plug on his father in 1988... That comment had nothing to do with Terri directly. Like I said, I don't really have a stance because I don't know who to believe... they both make compelling cases. However, if she was catholic I believe whatever they do should align with catholic beliefs... and no, I'm not catholic.

Also, FranchiseBlade she does interact because she moves/moans when touched... I'm NOT saying she's coherent or knows what's going on, she's just not motionless like patients on ventilators.

[DonnyMost]

I don't see much difference in having to have a machine feed you through a tube or having to have a machine breathe for you through a tube.

It may just be playing symantics, but they're both critical life functions that are not under the control of person in question.

[Invisible Fan]

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3789436

The moral of the story is to write a living will so your family won't have to deal with any ambiguity and conflict.

[nyquil82]

Originally posted by Invisible Fan
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3789436

The moral of the story is to write a living will so your family won't have to deal with any ambiguity and conflict.

...and so both political parties don't take away the last moments of dignity in your life and whore your lifeless body for personal political gain.

[KingCheetah]

'Doctors advised that he would "basically be a vegetable," said the congressman's aunt, JoAnne DeLay, who suffered broken bones in the crash.

"There was no point to even really talking about it," Maxine DeLay, the congressman's 81-year-old mother, told the Times. "Tom knew, we all knew, his father wouldn't have wanted to live that way." '

link (http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGB02JH1U6E.html)

[RocketMan Tex]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
Not the same situation at all. You did in fact miss the boat, krosfyah.

True that. There was no possible political gain from taking his father off the ventilator.

[Svpernaut]

Originally posted by RocketMan Tex
True that. There was no possible political gain from taking his father off the ventilator.

People who think they are doing this for political gain are crazy... especially considering that nearly every poll thas has been cast on the subject shows that 3/4 of the US sides with the Husband. I don't know why they're all doing it (vast majority of both sides voted to help her), but it isn't political gain.

If you think it is then you obviously don't know how politics works. If you stand for something that 75% of your voters disagree with that doesn't help you. I think the situation has simply struck a cord with people because it is such a unique case.

[rhadamanthus]

Originally posted by Svpernaut
You misread, I was stating the "left wing view" of Delay's supposed "hypocrisy" by standing for Terri while pulling the plug on his father in 1988.

Hypocrisy is independent of political leaning.

[Svpernaut]

Originally posted by rhadamanthus
Hypocrisy is independent of political leaning.

My statement had nothing to do with hypocrisy in politics, it had to do with the statement of hypocisy placed on DeLay by comparing his father's case to Terri's... Feel free to read.

[wouldabeen23]

Originally posted by Svpernaut
People who think they are doing this for political gain are crazy... especially considering that nearly every poll thas has been cast on the subject shows that 3/4 of the US sides with the Husband. I don't know why they're all doing it (vast majority of both sides voted to help her), but it isn't political gain.

If you think it is then you obviously don't know how politics works. If you stand for something that 75% of your voters disagree with that doesn't help you. I think the situation has simply struck a cord with people because it is such a unique case.

The Republican stance on this issue is two fold:

First and foremost, this was another situation in which they thought they could elevate a tragedy to further ingratiate themselves to the uber-conservative Christian Right, plain and simple. This make my hypocrisy meter redline since DeLay advocates executing the mentally retarded and his choice to support pulling the plug on a family member.....I grow weary of using the term "hypocrisy" as it is loaded and overused, but I simply can't think of a better alternative--a spade is a spade right?

Second, they wanted to play moral values "chicken" with the Democratic party--daring the Dems to blink first. W/Frist/DeLay and Company will jump on an issue that has any sort of religious underpinning or an opportunity to further hijack the "family values/morals" debate and slander the Democrats to look like godless communists.

The reason why they are going against 75% of the country is firstly due to their supposed mandate but mostly due to not wanting to lose face. They have reached a point of critical mass, they cannot disengage untill they have exhausted every shred of political capitol they have left. Methinks the game of chicken may have backfired on the party of values...

[Sishir Chang]

A couple of things here:

1. Terry Schiavo cannot swallow. Swallowing is one of the test of consciousness which she hasn't passed and if she could swallow they wouldn't need a feeding tube. They aren't feeding her orally because its against the law but because she can't chew or swallow.

2. The feeding tube isn't merely a funnel they put in her mouth but is actually implanted into her stomach. For people who claim that the difference is that she's being kept alive through food and water like the rest of us are missing the point that this isn't just a matter of feeding her but medically implanting an artificial esophagus that also has to be continuously monitored to prevent infection and other such problems when you create an artificial opening. Saying this is just the continuous of a natural process is the same as saying that dialysis is as natural as what the kidneys do.

I think the problem is that too few people understand exactly how extreme her condition is. Its not a matter that out of cruelty by her husband or by legal fiat that she's not allowed to eat or that all they need to do is hand her over to parents and they can feed her like a baby. A baby can still take food and water orally. This is more like giving her an artificial umbilical cord.

[Sishir Chang]

Originally posted by langal
I hear that the next controversy would be over the corpse. Husband wants it cremated immediately against the wishes of her parents. Again, he may have every legal recourse to enforce such an action - but it may not necessarily be the moral thing to do. He should at the very least allow the parents to decide how they want her interred.

Michael Schiavo's lawyer announced today that an autopsy would be done on Terry Schiavo. I believe this was largely in response to claims that he was cremating her to cover up abuse.

[rhadamanthus]

Originally posted by Svpernaut
Feel free to read.

Ok.

From Yahoo (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050329/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman_8) :
Michael Schiavo contends his wife told him years ago she would not want to be kept alive artificially under such circumstances.

And Delay says:

"There was no point to even really talking about it," Maxine DeLay, the congressman's 81-year-old mother, told the Times. "Tom knew, we all knew, his father wouldn't have wanted to live that way."

But now ol' Tom says:

"Congress has a legislative and moral duty to do what we can to protect her," Mr. DeLay said on March 17, after the House passed a measure intended to prevent the withdrawal of Ms. Schiavo's feeding tube. "Her life is being threatened, and we have it in our power to act on her behalf. Every human life deserves at least that much." -
link (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/28/politics/28delay.html)

And finally:
hypocrisy (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hypocrisy)

Meanwhile - real problems are still ignored while media and politcians continue to promote trivial controversies.

[moestavern19]

I've never seen so much fuss over a Girl swallowing or not.

[glynch]

Well we have to update the long term observation about conservatives and the right to life.

Conservatives believe that the right to life begins at conception and ends at birth. It starts again when you are in a vegetative state with no brain waves.

[Svpernaut]

Originally posted by wouldabeen23
The Republican stance on this issue is two fold:

First and foremost, this was another situation in which they thought they could elevate a tragedy to further ingratiate themselves to the uber-conservative Christian Right, plain and simple. This make my hypocrisy meter redline since DeLay advocates executing the mentally retarded and his choice to support pulling the plug on a family member.....I grow weary of using the term "hypocrisy" as it is loaded and overused, but I simply can't think of a better alternative--a spade is a spade right?

Second, they wanted to play moral values "chicken" with the Democratic party--daring the Dems to blink first. W/Frist/DeLay and Company will jump on an issue that has any sort of religious underpinning or an opportunity to further hijack the "family values/morals" debate and slander the Democrats to look like godless communists.

The reason why they are going against 75% of the country is firstly due to their supposed mandate but mostly due to not wanting to lose face. They have reached a point of critical mass, they cannot disengage untill they have exhausted every shred of political capitol they have left. Methinks the game of chicken may have backfired on the party of values...

It's laughable that you think this is a right-wing agenda issue when the VAST majority of politicians are for the fight... left-wing included. Hell, Jesse Jackson is fighting for her... and he's no republican.

[Svpernaut]

Originally posted by rhadamanthus
Ok.

From Yahoo (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050329/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman_8) :


And Delay says:



But now ol' Tom says:

-
link (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/28/politics/28delay.html)

And finally:
hypocrisy (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hypocrisy)

Meanwhile - real problems are still ignored while media and politcians continue to promote trivial controversies.

Once again, you can't compare to two scenarios because no on in DeLay's family wanted his father to live... Terri's parents are the ones who started this fight, and as her parents they have the right to try...

As for other issues being ignored, when congress and the President voted and past the bill they weren't in regular session. Congress votes on mundane things all of the time on both sides of the political isle.

[Deckard]

Originally posted by Svpernaut
It's laughable that you think this is a right-wing agenda issue when the VAST majority of politicians are for the fight... left-wing included. Hell, Jesse Jackson is fighting for her... and he's no republican.
The only thing laughable is thinking that this "fight" is anything but an attempt to capitalize on a divided family's grief and despair.

As for DeLay... he is a piece of walking excrement, but I think what happened to one of his family members shouldn't be used politically against him, just like I think it's poor taste to jump up and down about Jerry Falwell's health problems. More to the point, just like it has been a travesty watching the Republicans and the media exploit Terri Shaivo and her divided family. In my opinion, the situation and sorrow of all involved should never have become public. The exploitation of what should be a private matter is sickening.



Keep D&D Civil!!

[wouldabeen23]

Originally posted by Svpernaut
It's laughable that you think this is a right-wing agenda issue when the VAST majority of politicians are for the fight... left-wing included. Hell, Jesse Jackson is fighting for her... and he's no republican.

Jesse Jackson is as much of a Media Hound as Tom Delay or the RNC...this is press, nothing more.

If you, sir, beleive that this issue wasn't first siezed upon by right-wing republicans and elevated to the national level at their fanatical perisistence, then I have a an affordable plot of ocean front property in Arizona to sell you....

Left Wing politicians DID take part in this debate in favor of Shiavo's parents. However, it's "laughable" that you can ignore the facts that this IS a right-wing agenda issue elevated by right-wing politicos!

And to those Dems who blinked and took part in this sorry fiasco that has done nothing more than further weaken our Federal system--SHAME on you!

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Deckard
In my opinion, the situation and sorrow of all involved should never have become public. The exploitation of what should be a private matter is sickening.



i understand what you're saying here. but it becomes public record by its very nature when the family disagrees earnestly with the husband regarding the life of their daughter...and uses the courts as their forum for that disagreement.

[Deckard]

Originally posted by MadMax
i understand what you're saying here. but it becomes public record by its very nature when the family disagrees earnestly with the husband regarding the life of their daughter...and uses the courts as their forum for that disagreement.
It was common knowledge among the press that JFK would poke just about anything in a skirt. They didn't report it. I understand what you're saying. I just wish the current political party in power, and the media, had just decided that this wasn't something to exploit for their own gain. Lots of people fight issues in the courts, as you certainly know. Most of them don't become tools of party politics and the media.



Keep D&D Civil!!

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Deckard
It was common knowledge among the press that JFK would poke just about anything in a skirt. They didn't report it. I understand what you're saying. I just wish the current political party in power, and the media, had just decided that this wasn't something to exploit for their own gain. Lots of people fight issues in the courts, as you certainly know. Most of them don't become tools of party politics and the media.



Keep D&D Civil!!

wait...this isn't a matter of common knowledge. this is public record. through our government's courts. brought all the way up on appeal to the United States Supreme Court, though denied writ, I believe.

i certainly can understand how you'd think this was exploited by politcal parties...and i won't disagree. but as for the public's interest...this is a very compelling case with literal life/death implications for all of us, going forward. at the very least, a great cautionary tale for people to plan for the future with living wills and the like (spoken like a lawyer who has a partner who practices in the area!! :) ). but honestly..there are very compelling issues in this case about public policy, in general.

[Deckard]

Originally posted by MadMax
wait...this isn't a matter of common knowledge. this is public record. through our government's courts. brought all the way up on appeal to the United States Supreme Court, though denied writ, I believe.

i certainly can understand how you'd think this was exploited by politcal parties...and i won't disagree. but as for the public's interest...this is a very compelling case with literal life/death implications for all of us, going forward. at the very least, a great cautionary tale for people to plan for the future with living wills and the like (spoken like a lawyer who has a partner who practices in the area!! :) ). but honestly..there are very compelling issues in this case about public policy, in general.
I'm just being idealistic. :)

Over Easter, living wills were a hot topic, so maybe some good may come from this. My Mom, for example, declared in front of about 15 people that she, "...don't want to be kept alive by some darn machine." That's about all I can see as being good, however.


Keep D&D Civil!!

[rhadamanthus]

Originally posted by Svpernaut
Once again, you can't compare to two scenarios because no on in DeLay's family wanted his father to live...

Proof? Other than the linked story?

Regardless, this is still HYPOCRISY. Delay understood his father would "not have wanted to live this way". For everyone else, "Congress has a legislative and moral duty to do what we can to protect her(him)."

Get it?

{rimshot}Not that i expect any Delay supporter to understand the concept of logical thought and responsibilty for one's actions...{/rimshot}

Terri's parents are the ones who started this fight, and as her parents they have the right to try...


I'm pretty sure her husband started it.

[Sishir Chang]

At first I thought the way that Deckard did but as this case has dragged out I agree with Mad Max that there is a compelling public interests in this as it touches on several key issues regarding, personal liberties, federalism, separation powers and even the legal definition of marriage.

[glynch]

Living will is the best revenge
By ROBERT FRIEDMAN, Perspective Editor
Published March 27, 2005

Like many of you, I have been compelled by recent events to prepare a more detailed advance directive dealing with end-of-life issues. Here's what mine says:

* In the event I lapse into a persistent vegetative state, I want medical authorities to resort to extraordinary means to prolong my hellish semiexistence. Fifteen years wouldn't be long enough for me.

* I want my wife and my parents to compound their misery by engaging in a bitter and protracted feud that depletes their emotions and their bank accounts.

* I want my wife to ruin the rest of her life by maintaining an interminable vigil at my bedside. I'd be really jealous if she waited less than a decade to start dating again or otherwise rebuilding a semblance of a normal life.

* I want my case to be turned into a circus by losers and crackpots from around the country who hope to bring meaning to their empty lives by investing the same transient emotion in me that they once reserved for Laci Peterson, Chandra Levy and that little girl who got stuck in a well.

* I want those crackpots to spread vicious lies about my wife.

* I want to be placed in a hospice where protesters can gather to bring further grief and disruption to the lives of dozens of dying patients and families whose stories are sadder than my own.

* I want the people who attach themselves to my case because of their deep devotion to the sanctity of life to make death threats against any judges, elected officials or health care professionals who disagree with them.

* I want the medical geniuses and philosopher kings who populate the Florida Legislature to ignore me for more than a decade and then turn my case into a forum for weeks of politically calculated bloviation.

* I want total strangers - oily politicians, maudlin news anchors, ersatz friars and all other hangers-on - to start calling me "Bobby," as if they had known me since childhood.

* I'm not insisting on this as part of my directive, but it would be nice if Congress passed a "Bobby's Law" that applied only to me and ignored the medical needs of tens of millions of other Americans without adequate health coverage.

* Even if the "Bobby's Law" idea doesn't work out, I want Congress - especially all those self-described conservatives who claim to believe in "less government and more freedom" - to trample on the decisions of doctors, judges and other experts who actually know something about my case. And I want members of Congress to launch into an extended debate that gives them another excuse to avoid pesky issues such as national security and the economy.

* In particular, I want House Majority Leader Tom DeLay to use my case as an opportunity to divert the country's attention from the mounting political and legal troubles stemming from his slimy misbehavior.

* And I want Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist to make a mockery of his Harvard medical degree by misrepresenting the details of my case in ways that might give a boost to his 2008 presidential campaign.

* I want Frist and the rest of the world to judge my medical condition on the basis of a snippet of dated and demeaning videotape that should have remained private.

* Because I think I would retain my sense of humor even in a persistent vegetative state, I'd want President Bush - the same guy who publicly mocked Karla Faye Tucker when signing off on her death warrant as governor of Texas - to claim he was intervening in my case because it is always best "to err on the side of life."

* I want the state Department of Children and Families to step in at the last moment to take responsibility for my well-being, because nothing bad could ever happen to anyone under DCF's care.

* And because Gov. Jeb Bush is the smartest and most righteous human being on the face of the Earth, I want any and all of the aforementioned directives to be disregarded if the governor happens to disagree with them. If he says he knows what's best for me, I won't be in any position to argue.

link (http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/27/Columns/Living_will_is_the_be.shtml)