Fixing Public Education

[pirc1]

If you listen to politicians (Democrats and Republicans), everyone wants to fix the school system. They all have different ideas, more money, more tests, vouchers, etc...

But the problem with the public educations system have been going on for generations and different Administrations from both parties have tried but not succeeded. Is this really a problem that can be fixed? If so, why have it not been fixed up to now. Why have other countries been doing better with less resources(Eastern Europe and many Asian countries come to mind)

If you are the education secretary, what would you do? Are there models that can be borrowed?

Hopefully this will generated some good debate and ideas, please no name calling please.;)

[basso]

Originally posted by pirc1


But the problem with the public educations system have been going on for generations and different Administrations from both parties have tried but not succeeded.

i would say that vouchers haven't truely been tried on a large scale. i'm not doctrinally in favor of them, but i am curious to see what would happen if they were given a fair shot at working.

[MR. MEOWGI]

http://www.duffgardens.net/img/char/jasperj.gif

"Talking out of turn? That's a paddlin'. Lookin' out the window? That's a paddlin'. Staring at my sandals? That's a padddlin'. Paddling the school canoe? Oh, you better believe that's a paddlin'."

[pirc1]

Originally posted by basso
i would say that vouchers haven't truely been tried on a large scale. i'm not doctrinally in favor of them, but i am curious to see what would happen if they were given a fair shot at working.

I am all for whatever works, maybe there should be a timed test on a large scale say for like 2-3 years?

[NJRocket]

They need to have more stringent guidelines for becoming a teacher and then compensate them accordingly. Forget putting money into a newer, better football field or auditorium....pay the damn teachers what they deserve. Pay them bonuses tied to the kids' scores on the state/national exams. There are no more important people in regards to our future than today's teachers.

[pirc1]

Originally posted by NJRocket
They need to have more stringent guidelines for becoming a teacher and then compensate them accordingly. Forget putting money into a newer, better football field or auditorium....pay the damn teachers what they deserve. Pay them bonuses tied to the kids' scores on the state/national exams. There are no more important people in regards to our future than today's teachers.

Teachers may not be the most highly paid profession but they are probably not doing too badly. I do not believe it is rocket science to teach high school kids Math, Science, English, etc... But I believe today's teachers sometimes do focus too much on the psychlogy of teaching instead of the material being taught.

[basso]

local control is hugely important. the problems in New York City, which are largely the result of cronyism in the teacher's union, are likely quite different from those is, say Boise. money will always be an issue, but it's not always the solution. the amount of money wasted in the nyc schools is simply staggering.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by NJRocket
There are no more important people in regards to our future than today's teachers.

i swear i'm not disagreeing just to disagree with you!!!

but i'd say parents are more important. and i think part of the problem with our education system is the embracing of the notion that it is to teach and be all things to children. that they take the place of parents in our society. this is conclusion i've drawn from being married to someone who taught first grade for 5 years and hearing comments made from parents about their role in their kids' lives relative to teachers.

i also think our education system isn't NEARLY as bad as it's made out to be.

[NJRocket]

i agree Max....i almost wrote "other than parents...".....but I'm wit ya

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by pirc1
Teachers may not be the most highly paid profession but they are probably not doing too badly. .

I honestly don;t know what they make...if they are making 5 figures, its not enough.

[pirc1]

Originally posted by NJRocket
I honestly don;t know what they make...if they are making 5 figures, its not enough.

If they are making 6 figures then I definately should switch to teaching.:D

I agree that parent's role is very important. No kids will learn well in school without a good environment at home.

[111chase111]

Originally posted by MadMax
i swear i'm not disagreeing just to disagree with you!!!

but i'd say parents are more important. and i think part of the problem with our education system is the embracing of the notion that it is to teach and be all things to children. that they take the place of parents in our society. this is conclusion i've drawn from being married to someone who taught first grade for 5 years and hearing comments made from parents about their role in their kids' lives relative to teachers.

i also think our education system isn't NEARLY as bad as it's made out to be.

Max, I think you hit the nail on the head. When kids come from families with supporting parents who care about their kids educations and (most importantly) believe it's up to the kid and the kid's family to get that education they turn out just fine. It's probably the main reason why middle and upper class kids (regardless of race) tend to do better. Also, children coming from families who's culture emphasises the importance of doing well in school (Asians, for example) also do well.

The problem is not so much with our system as with the culture of lower-class America.

[MR. MEOWGI]

Originally posted by pirc1
I do not believe it is rocket science to teach high school kids Math, Science, English, etc...

The problem is they can't teach at all when they are doing is nothing but babysitting and dealing with unsupportive parents. That's the hard part. The subject matter is an after thought.

[pirc1]

Originally posted by 111chase111
Max, I think you hit the nail on the head. When kids come from families with supporting parents who care about their kids educations and (most importantly) believe it's up to the kid and the kid's family to get that education they turn out just fine. It's probably the main reason why middle and upper class kids (regardless of race) tend to do better. Also, children coming from families who's culture emphasises the importance of doing well in school (Asians, for example) also do well.

The problem is not so much with our system as with the culture of lower-class America.

Good point, in many inner city schools often sports is thought of as the only way to move out of poverty instead of good education.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by MR. MEOWGI
The problem is they can't teach at all when they are doing is nothing but babysitting and dealing with unsupportive parents. That's the hard part. The subject matter is an after thought.

i agree. my wife would come home so frustrated after talking with parents who said, "i never have time to read with my kid!" that's such crap. seriously..we're talking about 5 minutes. i've read with my 5 year old since he was months old....i'm already reading to my 4 month old every night before he goes to sleep. that's not to pat myself on the back...i'm really saying it's not that great of an effort.

when children feel loved...when they feel supported...when they're encourage...they perform better in all aspects of life. again, that's not rocket science. i'm a mentor through a church program called Kids Hope. i spend one hour a week with a kid at a public school. we spend a bit of time studying for spelling tests...but we spend most of our time just hanging out, with me showing an interest in him and how he's doing. the kids' performance from this goes up big time. it's shown time and time again. just a very minimal investment of time and care goes so freaking far. the child i mentor comes from a single parent home...his father is far away in another state. he laments to me how he wishes he had a father around. it breaks my heart. and it's no suprise to me why he struggles at school. not a diss on his mom at all, because she's great and she tries super-hard. it's merely the product of a culture that sees kids as a burden instead of a responsibility.

[whag00]

Originally posted by NJRocket
I honestly don;t know what they make...if they are making 5 figures, its not enough.

You want six figures for teachers? Come on now lets be reasonable. Teachers work 5 days a week and 9 months a year. And they get all holidays off. Teachers average $47,000 (www.salary.com) for about 180 days of work.

I agree with 111chase111 the problem is more cultural than anything else.

[pirc1]

Originally posted by whag00
You want six figures for teachers? Come on now lets be reasonable. Teachers work 5 days a week and 9 months a year. And they get all holidays off. Teachers average $47,000 (www.salary.com) for about 180 days of work.

I agree with 111chase111 the problem is more cultural than anything else.

By the way, the University I work at the Profs average 80K.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by whag00
You want six figures for teachers? Come on now lets be reasonable. Teachers work 5 days a week and 9 months a year. And they get all holidays off. Teachers average $47,000 (www.salary.com) for about 180 days of work.


yeah..i used to say this to my wife, and she'd reluctantly agree. ultimately they work less than 9 months a year. they have roughly 3 months off for summer...two weeks at Christmas time..a week at Spring Break..and various other days throughout the year. my wife was home by 5 on most evenings.

definitely a difficult job. but not sure it warrants six figures.

[giddyup]

Originally posted by MadMax
i agree. my wife would come home so frustrated after talking with parents who said, "i never have time to read with my kid!" that's such crap. seriously..we're talking about 5 minutes. i've read with my 5 year old since he was months old....i'm already reading to my 4 month old every night before he goes to sleep. that's not to pat myself on the back...i'm really saying it's not that great of an effort.
I've read "Thumbelina" and "Snow White and the Seven Dwarves" forty nights in a row and counting. I changed the names of the dwarves and it's been a big hit so far...

Reading with your kids is one of the greatest times you can have with them. I don't understand parents who wouldn't do it.

[Rocket Fan]

I think a huge problem with teachers is the fact that they are paid almost soley based on number of years they teach, and it isn't easy to fire them.

If no matter how great you are, you will not make any more money or less money.. it takes away some motivation. Why work hard when you won't get fired, won't get a pay cut, and won't get a pay raise. Pretty secure job!

Doesn't matter if you are a great teacher, you know that you will likely make less than the horrible teacher with one more years experience than you..

Teacher unions etc though don't want them to be paid based on performance though. I know there are arguments about the teach may just have horrible kids etc, but I'm sure there is someway around that.

I've heard proposals about paying based on how much they performed better than the year before, so that you account for the fact some kids aren't performing well to begin with.

My sister is a teacher, and no matter what I hear.. I'm not ready to say they are the least underpaid people in america etc. You can start out in Houston area at around 34k or so and move up from there each year. That isn't a horrible salary for the number of days off a year etc that they get. There are plenty of people who make less than that. For instance, oh construction workers who work almost everyday a year with no holidays etc in the Houston heat.

They could be paid more, but they aren't THAT underpaid. .if you take into account number of days a year.

[andymoon]

Originally posted by NJRocket
They need to have more stringent guidelines for becoming a teacher and then compensate them accordingly. Forget putting money into a newer, better football field or auditorium....pay the damn teachers what they deserve. Pay them bonuses tied to the kids' scores on the state/national exams. There are no more important people in regards to our future than today's teachers.

This may be the first time I have agreed with you, but when you are right, you are right.

The reason we don't have great teachers is that teacher's salaries aren't even close to competitive with the market. The best people are sucked up by corporations and with the dwindling of public research funds (that used to go to the universities), even R&D people are taken out of the educational market in favor of corporate riches.

Starting salary for high school teachers should be somewhere around $40k.

[Rocket Fan]

And before everyone defends teachers..

I know some are great, but I had some absolutely HORRIBLE TEACHERS... and we need to make it where those ones can be fired..

I know teachers who were horrible for 30 years, and people complained about them every year and they still kept their jobs.

[Rocket Fan]

Apparently in cyfair isd for instance, you start at 36k a year now with no experience etc...

work a few years and you are making 40k a year....that's not horrible for days worked etc.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
Apparently in cyfair isd for instance, you start at 36k a year now with no experience etc...

work a few years and you are making 40k a year....that's not horrible for days worked etc.

on your analysis about people who work longer being paid more...that wasn't true when my wife was teaching. they increased the starting salary for teachers while not changing those who had been there. people who just started teaching were making more than she was though she was in her 5th year and was the "team captain" of her grade level.

[pirc1]

If the biggest influence is culture and family. How could that culture be changed? Not by throwing more money certainly.

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
I think a huge problem with teachers is the fact that they are paid almost soley based on number of years they teach, and it isn't easy to fire them.

If no matter how great you are, you will not make any more money or less money.. it takes away some motivation. Why work hard when you won't get fired, won't get a pay cut, and won't get a pay raise. Pretty secure job!

Doesn't matter if you are a great teacher, you know that you will likely make less than the horrible teacher with one more years experience than you..

Teacher unions etc though don't want them to be paid based on performance though. I know there are arguments about the teach may just have horrible kids etc, but I'm sure there is someway around that.

I've heard proposals about paying based on how much they performed better than the year before, so that you account for the fact some kids aren't performing well to begin with.

My sister is a teacher, and no matter what I hear.. I'm not ready to say they are the least underpaid people in america etc. You can start out in Houston area at around 34k or so and move up from there each year. That isn't a horrible salary for the number of days off a year etc that they get. There are plenty of people who make less than that. For instance, oh construction workers who work almost everyday a year with no holidays etc in the Houston heat.

They could be paid more, but they aren't THAT underpaid. .if you take into account number of days a year.

AS someone who currently teaches at a 100% title 1 school I can tell that basing pay on the scores of children won't work, and will hurt the impoverished students that need the most help.

The first reason is that in poorer neighborhoods and schools you have a larger transient population. You have students who show up from a village in another country and have never been to school before in their life, and don't speak the language yet they have to be tested. Their scores will not be up to par, and you will be punishing the teachers who are willing to put in the extra time, and work required to bring those students up to snuff.

Secondly all the best teachers would then transfer to the richest schools that have the most advantages so they could get the best pay. That would in turn leave the neediest kids with the bottom of the barrel or most inexperienced teachers.

Thirdly it encourages cheating. Texas had shown remarkable improvement with kids tests scores, only to find out recently that there had been wide scale cheating because of tying funds and bonuses to test scores. In addition teachers that might not cheat will be pressured by administrators to do so. I wouldn't have said this except that it has already happened.

I am all in favor being able to get rid of teachers who are poor teachers. I know some, and I think poor teachers in the past are responsible for a lot of the beaurocratic mess the plagues schools now. Rule after rule after program after program was put in to place because some teachers weren't getting their jobs done.

The teachers at underpriviledged schools with English language learners have to put in more hours and work harder, but will see less results than other teachers. Yet it will be the other teachers that get paid more if we tie pay to the test resorts.

As for teacher's union I belong to one. I belong to 3 unions currently. Actor's equity is kind of lame in my opinion, and doesn't do that much to help most actors. Screen Actor's Guild has its strong points and weak points but has done some good things. I would say it is in the middle of the road. The teacher's union here is absolutely wonderful. They have done things that actually don't just look out for teachers and try and make their jobs easier for more money. They have put in a code of standards that teachers must live up to. They raised the standards and made them uniform for students to live up to. Teachers must live up to the standards and all curriculum must be tied to the state standards.

Anyway, this union is actually very concerned about making education better. Yes they look after teachers benefits too, but it is really a great factor in education.

I'll talk about different ideas for education later. The game is about to start and I have to go.

[Rocket Fan]

madmax. I dont know everyone, but we were discussing it in class the other day about the fact that its basically totally done by how many years...

at one point there was a chart online about how much teachers are paid by each year experience in the district..

I know my sister is being paid more after working there a few years than are the entry level teachers..

[Rocket Fan]

franchise. there has to be someway to base teachers pay on their ability. the fact that a horrible teacher is paid the same amount as a great teacher makes no sense..

Someeway to do it can be worked out. I've heard proposals where you base it on how much the kids are improving from the year before. In that instance, teachers are actually at an advantage by having the poorer kids because there is more room for improvement.

As long as teachers pay is not based on performance at all, I think we will have problems.

Like I said, there are many good teachers, but there are a lot of ones that are horrible and seem to be able to keep teaching forever without being fired or facing a pay cut

[Rocket Fan]

I dont care if its done on test scores or what, but I think in every school people figure out who are the best teachers...

whether its by personal evaluations, or whatever I don't care.. the principals need to figure out who there best teachers are and pay them more than the worst ones. Give some reason for teachers to work even harder to be one of the best.

almost every other job in america can figure out who their best workers are, a school can too

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
I dont care if its done on test scores or what, but I think in every school people figure out who are the best teachers...

whether its by personal evaluations, or whatever I don't care.. the principals need to figure out who there best teachers are and pay them more than the worst ones. Give some reason for teachers to work even harder to be one of the best.

almost every other job in america can figure out who their best workers are, a school can too OK that makes sense, and I don't think I'd have any problem with that kind of thing at all. We do have evaluations which can get teachers fired if they have two unsuccessful ones in a row.

[rimbaud]

From the AFT (http://www.aft.org/salary/index.htm)

2003 Survey & Analysis of Teacher Salary Trends

The latest AFT salary survey shows that efforts to make education salaries competitive with other professions face a stiff headwind—in the form of skyrocketing costs for health benefits. The 2002-03 average teacher salary was $45,771, up 3.3 percent from the previous year, and average beginning teacher salaries rose 3.2 percent to $29,564 for the same period. But those gains are dwarfed by staggering increases in the cost of health insurance benefits—which spiked an astounding 13 percent, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reports.

Also, keep in mind these averages include the Northeast, Claifornia, and other
high cost of living areas. Texas is by far one of the best places to be a teacher, despite the majority of the school systems being pitiful. Just for cost of living.

Max, I am of the opposite opinion with reagrds to our school system. I don't think it is overblown, I think it has been given fake lip service about it's faults but nobody takes it serious enough to actually work on improving anything.

Instead, horrible schools like my HS alma mater are propped up as "miracle schools" because they cook their books. Why fix the problem when you can fix the records!

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
madmax. I dont know everyone, but we were discussing it in class the other day about the fact that its basically totally done by how many years...

at one point there was a chart online about how much teachers are paid by each year experience in the district..

I know my sister is being paid more after working there a few years than are the entry level teachers..

i'm not doubting that story. i just know there was a long period of time where they were offering much larger starting salaries to new teachers than they were to teachers who had been there 5 years or so, because they were having such a hard time attracting new teachers.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by rimbaud


Max, I am of the opposite opinion with reagrds to our school system. I don't think it is overblown, I think it has been given fake lip service about it's faults but nobody takes it serious enough to actually work on improving anything.

Instead, horrible schools like my HS alma mater are propped up as "miracle schools" because they cook their books. Why fix the problem when you can fix the records!

i'm thinking we would see it play out more then. people have bene complaining about our education system for years because of how we tested relative to other countries. we still innovate like a mother...we still have a super productive economy. i'm not saying you don't fix problems...i'm just saying i don't think the problem is as dire as many think it is...with the exception being inner city schools. but that doesn't make up the entirety of public education in this country.

[Rocket Fan]

madmax.. that probably is the way it is in some places.... the only way to attract teachers is sometimes to jack up starting pay a lot. which im sure annoys the people that have been there a while.