Lane, Burke and Tavarez make sense for Garnerball

[Rileydog]

Sorry if this has already been hashed . . .

In thinking about this further, since, Garner's managerial style places an emphasis on making things happen, being aggressive, I think Tavarez breaks camp as our startign CF. Burke will play 2b. Biggio will be the superutility guy.

Our lineup will be
Tavarez/Biggio
Burke
Berkman (when he gets healthy)
Bagwell
Lane
Ensberg/Lamb
Everett
Ausmus

Tavarez and Burke will be called upon to play small ball. Tavarez like Juan pierre. Everett will be asked to do the same. We have little choice but to manuracture runs and play good defense. Hopefully our starting pitching will carry us.

(don't get me started on the reasons why Beltran is the ultimate weapon for Garner).

[gunn]

Originally posted by Rileydog
Tavarez like Juan pierre.

Except he's not left handed and not a slap hitter. All of the good slap hitters have primarily been leftys. I've said it before, untill Taveras learns to drive the ball he will get busted inside by RHP at the major league level. I'd also like to add that Taveras has not shown the ability to draw walks either, which is crucial to the leadoff spot.

[meh]

Managers should only manage to the strength of his players. If our lineup happens to have a lot of speed, then by all means play agressively. If they're a bunch of slow guys that hit homers, then play conservatively to wait for the bomb.

A team should never field inferior players for the sake of "managerial style". If Lane, Burke, and Taveras happens to be our best players at their positions, then we should do be more aggresive on the basepaths. Burke and Taveras certainly aren't going to have many extra base hits.

Garner managed pretty well last season. He had Beltran running all the time because Beltran is just too good. He ran some other guys only occasionally, more to surprise opponents than anything else.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rileydog
Tavarez like Juan pierre. .

Pierre is a lifetime .300 plus hitter...and steals around 45-50 bases a season...I think thats expecting a bit much

[Rileydog]

certainly i'm being optimistic. one of my thoughts, not stated here, is that Purpura is focused on developing young talent. the fact that these young players resemble the mold of players Garner wants makes it all the more likely that Purpura will push them through the system and give them a shot at the show.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rileydog
certainly i'm being optimistic. one of my thoughts, not stated here, is that Purpura is focused on developing young talent. the fact that these young players resemble the mold of players Garner wants makes it all the more likely that Purpura will push them through the system and give them a shot at the show.

i hear ya....i mean, pierre started somewhere too...man this is gonna be a frustrating year

[codell]

I must be one of the few who would be shocked to see Taveras in the Stros lineup next year, barring injury.

He needs at least a AAA season.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by codell
I must be one of the few who would be shocked to see Taveras in the Stros lineup next year, barring injury.

He needs at least a AAA season.

i agree...i think he will probably see more time as a pinch runner here and there

[MadMax]

Originally posted by NJRocket
i hear ya....i mean, pierre started somewhere too...man this is gonna be a frustrating year

just like 3/4 of last year, huh?

have some faith you freaks!!!! ;)

[Austin70]

Originally posted by MadMax
just like 3/4 of last year, huh?

have some faith you freaks!!!! ;)


So true, I kept on waiting for them to kick it in and start putting some wins together, I figured we were never out of it until we were 10 games out with 9 left.

[Rileydog]

I'll be kinda pissed off if Tavaras isn't here by mid season (assuming that the team is not in serious playoff contention). At a minimum, he should be a september call up.

He killed AA and should probably have been moved to AAA last year, thereby facilitating his move to the bigs by mid year this year.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Rileydog
I'll be kinda pissed off if Tavaras isn't here by mid season (assuming that the team is not in serious playoff contention). At a minimum, he should be a september call up.

He killed AA and should probably have been moved to AAA last year, thereby facilitating his move to the bigs by mid year this year.

let's think of some guys who virtually skipped past AAA...or just stayed there a very short time. didn't berkman do that??? who else?? redding??

[Rileydog]

oswalt did. maybe carlos hernandez too (damn him and his head first slide).

[NIKEstrad]

Originally posted by Rileydog

He killed AA and should probably have been moved to AAA last year, thereby facilitating his move to the bigs by mid year this year.

I think he would've been moved up, but he had a hip injury I believe on and off in the second half of the season.

Max- Carlos Hernandez comes to mind. Roy wasn't in AAA too long was he?

The thinking with Taveras is that he gets so many hits with his legs as it is, then again, didn't Brian Hunter hit in the mid .300s in the minors?. I think if he blows up during spring training, he has a shot at the job.

[Deuce Rings]

Originally posted by MadMax
just like 3/4 of last year, huh?

have some faith you freaks!!!! ;)

Faith or blind faith? Based on the current state of the team, I would say blind faith.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Deuce Rings
Faith or blind faith? Based on the current state of the team, I would say blind faith.

it would have been far more blind at the time we made the comeback, frankly. only one team in MLB history had a comeback like that.

the offseason isn't over...we clearly have some money to play with at the trading deadline. i'm thinking we ought to watch them play at least one game before we write off the entire season. just a hunch.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by MadMax
the offseason isn't over...we clearly have some money to play with at the trading deadline. i'm thinking we ought to watch them play at least one game before we write off the entire season. just a hunch.

Nah, I think we should just get rid of the games. You know, just let all the experts decide who the best teams are, then when they come to a consensus, then announce the champion.

It must suck to be a sports fan without enjoying the sense that "anything can happen".

[SamCassell]

Willy Taveras strikes out way more than a guy with zero power should. He needs more time in AAA to develop that skill, or he's going to become Brian Hunter part 2. He's not close to Juan Pierre until he learns plate discipline.

Those other guys that were listed, Oswalt and such, came up as polished products. They proved they had mastered the minor-league game. Willy needs a little more seasoning.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Nah, I think we should just get rid of the games. You know, just let all the experts decide who the best teams are, then when they come to a consensus, then announce the champion.

It must suck to be a sports fan without enjoying the sense that "anything can happen".

It's the same crap that people complain about with college football...that we miss the "anything can happen" component of a playoff system that we have in other sports. it's the fun of being a fan.

[SamCassell]

Tell "anything can happen" to fans of the Brewers, Pirates, Reds, Tigers, and Devil Rays. Surely you recognize that there's a requisite of, for lack of a better word, talented players. There's a reason why the NL East finished in the exact same order from 98 through 2003.

To write off a season before it starts for a team like the Astros, who do have some remaining talent, is certainly overly pessimistic. But this sunshine-and-flowers stuff is equally ridiculous, in a sport that lends itself so readily to numbers evaluation. The eternal optimists don't hold the patent on being "true sports fans".

[MadMax]

Originally posted by SamCassell
Tell "anything can happen" to fans of the Brewers, Pirates, Reds, Tigers, and Devil Rays. Surely you recognize that there's a requisite of, for lack of a better word, talented players. There's a reason why the NL East finished in the exact same order from 98 through 2003.

To write off a season before it starts for a team like the Astros, who do have some remaining talent, is certainly overly pessimistic. But this sunshine-and-flowers stuff is equally ridiculous, in a sport that lends itself so readily to numbers evaluation. The eternal optimists don't hold the patent on being "true sports fans".

sam...yikes!!! ease up!!!

no one is saying sunshine and flowers. who here is saying this team is a lock to win the division?? or even the wild card? who here is pushing that??? RM95 and I are probably the most solid in the optimism camp, and neither one of us has said that. i'm not predicting this team will be better than the Cards.

i just think, given where we were at the start of last season, the only difference is no Jeff Kent. at the beginning of last season, did you think we would suck?? we removed jeff kent...we may replace those RBI's with Burnitz. if we can get clemens to come back, i think our opening day rotation looks better than it did last year. does that lock anything down for us?? of course not. but i'm not ready to say, "awww...we're gonna suck," until i see this team play. these are the same guys who wrote off the season last year. there's just too many variables.

we're not the devil rays, pirates, brewers or tigers, sam. not even close. and i don't think it's sunshine and flowers to assert we're not. it's reality instead of overreaction to an offseason that hasn't concluded yet.

[Groogrux]

I never said that people like MadMax or myself have a "patent on being true sports fans". I just don't see the point of enjoying sports if you're not an optimist about it. That's just be though...to each their own.

[SamCassell]

I think your words were "Go away and root for the Cubs." But anyway I wasn't trying to be harsh - sorry if it came off that way. I need to sprinkle my posts with more :) and :D and maybe a few of :p every now and then, it's just hard to tell the inflection in a post without someone in front of you. If we were all drinking a few beers at a bar it'd be different.

I guess it's one of those agree-to-disagree things. Y'all don't understand how people can enjoy sports without being optimists, I don't understand the point of entering threads discussing offseason moves and saying "anything can happen." That's true, I guess, but the fun of the hotstove league is discussing and evaluating player moves. If you prefer not to do so, cool, but why let it rile you up when people do? It's all part of the fun of the offseason. :cool: <----note the smiling emoticon with the sunglasses

And for the record, I can't look at this team and think they're as good as they were last year. I don't think they'll be terrible, but I think they've taken a step or two back from where they were last season, even with a theoretically healthy Pettite. I can't turn a blind eye to the loss of our 2 best RBI men without a replacement and not comment. Doesn't mean I won't cheer for the Stros as hard as anyone! To me being a sports fan is't being always optimistic (in the sense of seeing the current situation as rosy - of course we all hope for the best in the future), it's experiencing the ups, and downs, of the season (and offseason).

[MadMax]

for the record...we lost ONE of our top RBI men compared to what our expectations were going into last year. we didn't have carlos in the beginning. while we'll certainly miss those 7 he provided for us in all of September :) i'm just talking about what our expectations are beginning this season as opposed to beginning last season.

but at this point, the record is incomplete. the offseason isn't over. i don't know if this is the team we have, or if there will be more. so saying definitely they'll suck or be great next year is beyond me.

[SamCassell]

Of course, you can't say definitively. You can only look at what's on paper now, and what's been rumored (Burnitz?) - but that doesn't mean you have to wait until April to have an opinion.

Compared to last season, at the beginning of the season, we're missing Kent and Wade Miller. Remember, there was talk that the Stros had "4 aces" going into the season, and there was alot of optimism for Redding - as much as there is for Backe this year anyway. Dotel was supposed to be a good closer, and Lidge a good setup guy, but both were semi-unproven and Lidge is definitely considered better going into this year than he was last. Ensberg was coming off a good 2003 and was considered to be a rising star, his poor showing in 04 has diminished the expectations for him now. Berkman's not in the opening lineup, and might miss a month, which means that there will be some productivity lost in April, maybe longer depending on his recovery (we had a great April last year). Everett, Ausmus, Biggio, Bagwell, Clemens, Oswalt, Pettite are all about the same going into 03 as they were 04. Removing Beltran from the equation certainly helps even the analysis, but I think the expectations at 2B, 3B, RF, and SP are less than they were at the start of last season.

Of course this is subject to change, if we sign significant players the outlook will be cheerier.

[rrj_gamz]

Originally posted by NJRocket
Pierre is a lifetime .300 plus hitter...and steals around 45-50 bases a season...I think thats expecting a bit much

The average is that high because he was in Colorado...

[NIKEstrad]

Originally posted by rrj_gamz
The average is that high because he was in Colorado...

You're only supposed to mention that if it detracts from a player that the Astros are reported to be considering.

:)

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by MadMax
i just think, given where we were at the start of last season, the only difference is no Jeff Kent. .

and...

no Wade Miller
no realization that Biggio can't play LF either
no Berkman for a short while and no guarantee he will bee 100% all year

[Uprising]

I'm still excited for next season no matter what. We are not in a terrible state.

I am glad Lane is finally going to get (perhaps) a lot more playing time. He has been good in his time on the field.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
I never said that people like MadMax or myself have a "patent on being true sports fans". I just don't see the point of enjoying sports if you're not an optimist about it. That's just be though...to each their own.

nothing wrong with that...i just think Sam, myself and a few others are being more realistic about this season

Something that a lot of people haven't mentioned is that in addition to losing ground to the Cards, we also lost ground to the Braves, Mets, Giants, Dodgers, Padres and Marlins.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by rrj_gamz
The average is that high because he was in Colorado...

he had played in pretty much the exact same amt of games in Florida as he did in Colorado and had a better average in the seasons he has spent in Florida

[MadMax]

Originally posted by NJRocket
nothing wrong with that...i just think Sam, myself and a few others are being more realistic about this season

Something that a lot of people haven't mentioned is that in addition to losing ground to the Cards, we also lost ground to the Braves, Mets, Giants, Dodgers, Padres and Marlins.

i don't think you're being realistic, at all. you're saying this is going to be a frustrating season...you're saying we're going to struggle to play .500. RM95 and I are suggesting you might want to watch the young guys play first...and see what other moves we make...before you jump to conclusions about a season that doesn't begin for another 3 1/2 months. i would argue that our position is far more realistic than the "sky is falling"position i'm hearing here.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by MadMax
i don't think you're being realistic, at all. you're saying this is going to be a frustrating season...you're saying we're going to struggle to play .500. RM95 and I are suggesting you might want to watch the young guys play first...and see what other moves we make...before you jump to conclusions about a season that doesn't begin for another 3 1/2 months. i would argue that our position is far more realistic than the "sky is falling"position i'm hearing here.

Thank you. I haven't heard anyone say that they believe with absolute certainty that the Astros are going to go to the playoffs. We just think there might be a chance that not getting Beltran isn't the end of the world as we know it.

[msn]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
We just think there might be a chance that not getting Beltran isn't the end of the world as we know it.
"If YOU aren't prepared for the Ice Age, then DOOM ON YOU!!"

[gunn]

Originally posted by rrj_gamz
The average is that high because he was in Colorado...

Is that right? In his five seasons at the Major League level (3 in Colorado and 2 in Florida) his only season below .300 was in Colorado. I'd also like to add that two of his top three OPS years have come in Florida.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by MadMax
i don't think you're being realistic, at all. you're saying this is going to be a frustrating season...you're saying we're going to struggle to play .500. RM95 and I are suggesting you might want to watch the young guys play first...and see what other moves we make...before you jump to conclusions about a season that doesn't begin for another 3 1/2 months. i would argue that our position is far more realistic than the "sky is falling"position i'm hearing here.

Hang on....Im telling you that a team thinking about letting the youngsters play along side of a couple vets who are clearly past their prime is a recipe for mediocrity at best and you are sayiong that IM being unrealistic?

Would it be more realistic to say that we have a great shot at the postseason? You are being a little naive

[Fegwu]

Originally posted by Rileydog
Sorry if this has already been hashed . . .

In thinking about this further, since, Garner's managerial style places an emphasis on making things happen, being aggressive, I think Tavarez breaks camp as our startign CF. Burke will play 2b. Biggio will be the superutility guy.

Our lineup will be
Tavarez/Biggio
Burke
Berkman (when he gets healthy)
Bagwell
Lane
Ensberg/Lamb
Everett
Ausmus

Tavarez and Burke will be called upon to play small ball. Tavarez like Juan pierre. Everett will be asked to do the same. We have little choice but to manuracture runs and play good defense. Hopefully our starting pitching will carry us.

(don't get me started on the reasons why Beltran is the ultimate weapon for Garner).

I had a similar thread to this in almost every way (a forward looking and positive one as well) but it was locked and this one isn't? Whatever...

Oh well great points Rileydog but I will take the Burk+Backe for Sheets trade anyday anytime is the speclation is true. Great starting pitching coupled with serviceable relief bunch is the sure road to competitiveness for us in 2005.