Purpura Live on 740AM for Astroline @ Live

[Stack24]

Hey guys..just wanted to give some of you a heads up and let you know the guest was a last minute decision and it's Tim Purpura here's here at live and the radio broadcast starts at 7 and he is doing this interview cause he said he wanted to clear the air about a lot of mis information going out there etc etc....so if you want check it out and it might answer some stuff.

He looked kind of nervous walking in cause all the media was already here waiting for him to ask him questions.

[weakfromtoday]

Thanks for the heads up Stack, I've got it streaming now.

[codell]

please post a recap Stack

[bigboymumu]

Purpura being as clear as he can be.


PLAN B- We are going with the young guys. We aren't trading our pitching and we aren't trading away Burke.

Drayton knew what he was doing. We didn't go after other premier free agents not because of Beltran but because Drayton/Purpura want to go with the young guys. Drayton is a smart guy. I don't believe Boras put one over on him.

[Nick]

I think it was more a case of "there really wasn't anybody else that was that attractive other than Beltran," rather than "we love the young guys so much."

Honestly... all you "plan B" advocates (njrocket).... who else did you want the Astros to go after? I'm already on record (from during the winter meetings, and after the beltran signing) that I didn't think Beltre, Drew, or Finley were either worth it or fit this team.

I didn't mind Alou so much... but then you factor in that he's a 38 year old left fielder, who somehow stayed injury free last year for the first time in a long time... and that's normally not a trend that gets better with age.

Other than those guys, I didn't see the Astros being in the market for anybody else big... the options just weren't that good.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by Nick
I think it was more a case of "there really wasn't anybody else that was that attractive other than Beltran," rather than "we love the young guys so much."

Honestly... all you "plan B" advocates (njrocket).... who else did you want the Astros to go after? I'm already on record (from during the winter meetings, and after the beltran signing) that I didn't think Beltre, Drew, or Finley were either worth it or fit this team.

I didn't mind Alou so much... but then you factor in that he's a 38 year old left fielder, who somehow stayed injury free last year for the first time in a long time... and that's normally not a trend that gets better with age.

Other than those guys, I didn't see the Astros being in the market for anybody else big... the options just weren't that good.

What about pitching? Clement, Martinez, Lowe...

[Uprising]

I would have liked to have gotten Alou. But eh.

This season we will be fast and athletic (minus Baggy). SHould be an interesting season, and hopefully good one.

[Nick]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
What about pitching? Clement, Martinez, Lowe...

Out of those three, the only one that could "earn" their contract is Lowe, since he's pitching in the NL and is in a severe pitcher's park.

Clement has been Redding-lite in terms of "head" problems and inconsistency. Also, the Cubs basically let him go... to be somebody else's problem.

Pedro? I'll pay half his salary if he actually pitches his entire contract without either a.) a major drop in production, or b.) a major injury. Hell... he may already be injured, per his refusal to take an MRI for the Mets.

The pitchers that I covet are young POWER arms, who play on teams that might not be able to keep them long term (or they might not want to stay there long term)... Ben Sheets, Josh Beckett, Roy Halladay (not that young, but still Oswalt's age).

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by Nick
The pitchers that I covet are young POWER arms, who play on teams that might not be able to keep them long term (or they might not want to stay there long term)... Ben Sheets, Josh Beckett, Roy Halladay (not that young, but still Oswalt's age).

Add Burnett, Willis, Harden, and Santana to that wish list. Not going to happen though.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Purpura being as clear as he can be.


PLAN B- We are going with the young guys. We aren't trading our pitching and we aren't trading away Burke.

.

Did he really say that? Is this some kind of sick joke?

[rocketlaunch]

he basically said he will go young and pick up a couple older pitchers they talked about burba... and he said a left had specialist possibly john franco lefties hit .167 against him. He said a lot of teams are calling right now because we have space in our budget to help them move players.

He talked about backe.. and how he does not plan to move him but he will not rule out anyone if it can help the franchise

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by NJRocket
Did he really say that? Is this some kind of sick joke?

He said he doesn't want to trade Burke and he doesn't want to trade pitching. I added the part about going with the young guys.

[isoman2kx]

Originally posted by NJRocket
Did he really say that? Is this some kind of sick joke?


*barfs over a rail*

[bigboymumu]

This talk of Burnitz is making me sick.

[NewRoxFan]

Originally posted by Uprising
This season we will be fast and athletic (minus Baggy). SHould be an interesting season, and hopefully good one.

Hmm... Berkman (pre and morseo post-injury). Ausman. I sorta think Bagwell is still one of the 'stros better baserunners. WHich I think underlines a big problem with the team.

[NJRocket]

How about trades? How about Podsednik? Matt Clement or Derek Lowe wouild certainly have helped. You'd rather have Orlando Palmiero than Moises Alou if you had the chance? How can you say that a guy like JD Drew or Beltre wouldnt help us? Thats being naive. You think JD Drew is injury prone? We have a 1B whose arm is about to fall off his body and can only hit if someone is behind him in the lineup.

How about Hudson? How about Mulder? How about Carlos Be...never mind...how about Orlando Cabrera or Edgar Renteria? Dont like Beltre? How about Glaus? WHat about Russ Ortiz Carl Pavano, Odalis Perez, Brad Radke, Woody Williams or Jaret Wright?????


Not enough talent for ya Timmy? Maybe thats because he wouldnt know what talent unless it was stuffed inside of a friggin burrito. I wish the hell I was around for that interview because I would have rattled off those names to him and see what he had to say.

[NIKEstrad]

Originally posted by NJRocket
How about trades? How about Podsednik? Matt Clement or Derek Lowe wouild certainly have helped. You'd rather have Orlando Palmiero than Moises Alou if you had the chance? How can you say that a guy like JD Drew or Beltre wouldnt help us? Thats being naive. You think JD Drew is injury prone? We have a 1B whose arm is about to fall off his body and can only hit if someone is behind him in the lineup.

How about Hudson? How about Mulder? How about Carlos Be...never mind...how about Orlando Cabrera or Edgar Renteria? Dont like Beltre? How about Glaus? WHat about Russ Ortiz Carl Pavano, Odalis Perez, Brad Radke, Woody Williams or Jaret Wright?????


Not enough talent for ya Timmy? Maybe thats because he wouldnt know what talent unless it was stuffed inside of a friggin burrito. I wish the hell I was around for that interview because I would have rattled off those names to him and see what he had to say.

Clement and Lowe? Ok...You're talking about guys who would be #3 or #4 (if Rocket returns) starters for us. For 9 mill a year or so, no thanks

Podsednik fetched an under 30 .300-30-100 guy in Carlos Lee. We didn't have one of those.

Drew and Beltre are Boras guys. Enough said.

Renteria and Cabrera are nice, but we're paying Everett less than a mill, and he's a dandy of shortstop.

I'll give you Hudson or Mulder, but frontline starters are not something we're lacking. The price for one of those guys probably would've started with Burke and Astacio, plus probably a Lane, Buchholz, or Backe.

You can have your Jaret Wrights for 3 years, 21 million.

Purpura's been one of the leaders in talent identification in this organization. Criticizing him on handling the media, and agents like Boras is one thing, but not on talent knowledge

[rocketlaunch]

lowe's contract is way to high he has had one good season his whole career and has basically lived off of that. he is not worth 9 mil a year for 4 years

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by NIKEstrad
Clement and Lowe? Ok...You're talking about guys who would be #3 or #4 (if Rocket returns) starters for us. For 9 mill a year or so, no thanks



Both of those guys could win 15 games for us...4th starters on a team where Pettitte is coming off of surgery and our #1 might give us some sympathy sex on his way to the hall of fame wouldnt be such a bad thing

Drew and Beltre are Boras guys. Enough said.

Boras guys who signed with other teams without a bunch of he said/ she said BS for 2 months.

Renteria and Cabrera are nice, but we're paying Everett less than a mill, and he's a dandy of shortstop.

This is the point in your post that I realized you would argue every name I listed.

I'll give you Hudson or Mulder, but frontline starters are not something we're lacking. The price for one of those guys probably would've started with Burke and Astacio, plus probably a Lane, Buchholz, or Backe.

The Cards gave up HAren, Calero and some other schmuck for Mulder...the Braves gave up Thomas (who isnt any better than Lane if Lane is 1/2 as good as some of you make him out to be), Juan Cruz who cant find ther plate and some no name. Don't make it like we would have had to gut our entire farm system to get those guys.

Purpura's been one of the leaders in talent identification in this organization

I beg to differ until he proves me wrong. All of a sudden you guys are making this guy the brains behind everything Hun did and found....I think not.

[rocketlaunch]

NJ

they have said it before hun left that purpura was the man finding the players with the scouts. They talked about it tonite how he will use younger guys more. He was saying it will be good to see the guys he has been with since drafting and locating them.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by rocketlaunch
NJ

they have said it before hun left that purpura was the man finding the players with the scouts.

Who is they? The others on this board who disagree with my assertion of this offseason?

[bobrek]

Originally posted by NJRocket
Both of those guys could win 15 games for us...4th starters on a team where Pettitte is coming off of surgery and our #1 might give us some sympathy sex on his way to the hall of fame wouldnt be such a bad thing


Clement has never won 15 games in any season in his career. Why would he win 15 with Houston?

[bobmarley]

Originally posted by NJRocket
Who is they? The others on this board who disagree with my assertion of this offseason?

You are just mad because you have season tickets because you thought we had Beltran. Quit assuming. I makes you look bad.;)

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by bobrek
Clement has never won 15 games in any season in his career. Why would he win 15 with Houston?

He COULD win 15....he could win 12 or 18 as well....same thing with Lowe

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by bobmarley
You are just mad because you have season tickets because you thought we had Beltran. Quit assuming. I makes you look bad.;)

I've had season tickets for 3 years....2 of the years I didnt go to more than 5 games because I wasnt living here....I didnt get tickets because of Beltran...but I certainly didnt keep them to see a bunch of kids I can go watch at Round Rock

[bigboymumu]

Some of you guys really surprise. The Astros just had the worst offseason in recent team history and you guys are finding excuses for an owner that has repeatedly been dishonest with us about the Astros' financial situation. Plan B has always been to go with the young guys. Don't believe that BS spin that comes out of Drayton's mouth.

[bobmarley]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Some of you guys really surprise. The Astros just had the worst offseason in recent team history and you guys are finding excuses for an owner that has repeatedly been dishonest with us about the Astros' financial situation. Plan B has always been to go with the young guys. Don't believe that BS spin that comes out of Drayton's mouth.

I prefer the young guys myself.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by bobmarley
I prefer the young guys myself.

prefer them to what? winning?

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by bobmarley
I prefer the young guys myself.

OK. The problem I have is... If you are going to go with the young guys then go with the young guys. Don't blame Boras for what he did when we really did not miss out on any other free agents.

This was our plan. Boras is just the scapegoat.

[rocketlaunch]

Originally posted by NJRocket
prefer them to what? winning?

who available right now will help us win.. I want to know that. You are automatically assuming teams want to trade good players to us. and that free agents that signed else where wanted to come here

[bobmarley]

Beltran was the only guy I wanted this offseason.

besides maybe some cheap bullpen help.

We lost out on that vinture so now I dont feel like overpaying some over the hill FAs just so it looks like we did something.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by rocketlaunch
who available right now will help us win.. I want to know that. You are automatically assuming teams want to trade good players to us. and that free agents that signed else where wanted to come here

I just listed about 3 zillion guys that would have and could have helped us...would they have come here? Possibly...but we won;t know that since Carlos was Plan A and nothing was Plan B.

Purpura even said it himself....Drayton is a smart guy and Boras didnt pull one over on him. Well if Drayton was aware of everything and didnt have the wool pulled over his eyes, then he knew full well we didnt have much of a cghance at Carlos and basically wasted the entire offseason because he didnt want to just come out and say "Fans, we are going to have a youth movement. We arent going to get Carlos and we aren't going after anyone else for that matter."

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by NJRocket
I just listed about 3 zillion guys that would have and could have helped us...would they have come here? Possibly...but we won;t know that since Carlos was Plan A and nothing was Plan B.

Purpura even said it himself....Drayton is a smart guy and Boras didnt pull one over on him. Well if Drayton was aware of everything and didnt have the wool pulled over his eyes, then he knew full well we didnt have much of a cghance at Carlos and basically wasted the entire offseason because he didnt want to just come out and say "Fans, we are going to have a youth movement. We arent going to get Carlos and we aren't going after anyone else for that matter."

exactly!

[NJRocket]

You know what....I know you guys are all fans and want the best for the team. I just want to see what your feelings are if we dont do anything else this offseason other than lock up Vizcaino and Lamb and we are 15 games out of 1st in June.

[msn]

Purpura, first as head of scouting and then as assistant GM for years under Hunsicker, has been the one "identifying talent" for the better part of a decade. Oswalt, Miller, Berkman, Santana, Everett, Burke, Lane, and a host of others all say hi. To say that Purpura knows nothing about identifying talent is an excercise in ignorance of the recent history of this franchise. It is also more likely the product of bitterness over the whole Beltran thing than sound reasoning.

Now, is Purpura a good GM? The jury's still out. Personally, I miss Gerry Hunsicker. He was incredible.

[halfbreed]

Originally posted by NJRocket
You know what....I know you guys are all fans and want the best for the team. I just want to see what your feelings are if we dont do anything else this offseason other than lock up Vizcaino and Lamb and we are 15 games out of 1st in June.

FYI, that's about where we were this year. Go figure.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by msn
. Oswalt, Miller, Berkman, Santana, Everett, Burke, Lane, and a host of others all say hi. .

Yeah I'm sure Purpura found all of those guys on his own....not. Was he absent the day we had tryouts for RF between Abreu and Hidalgo? Or the day we let Santana get claimed in that rule 5 draft or whatever? Say what you want...but there's a huge void in GMing and evaluating now that Gerry is gone.

[msn]

Originally posted by NJRocket
You know what....I know you guys are all fans and want the best for the team. I just want to see what your feelings are if we dont do anything else this offseason other than lock up Vizcaino and Lamb and we are 15 games out of 1st in June.
Good teams on paper underperform all the time. Mediocre teams on paper play over the heads all the time. This team, on paper is pretty average. If the Astros are 15 games out of first by 1 June, I hope to see Taveras in CF and Burke at 2B. Might as well give the guys some run to 1) cement our future at the position or 2) build up their trade value.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by halfbreed
FYI, that's about where we were this year. Go figure.

Touche....but last year we had the talent...it just wasn't producing.

[msn]

Originally posted by NJRocket
Yeah I'm sure Purpura found all of those guys on his own....not. Was he absent the day we had tryouts for RF between Abreu and Hidalgo? Or the day we let Santana get claimed in that rule 5 draft or whatever? Say what you want...but there's a huge void in GMing and evaluating now that Gerry is gone.
"Say what you want," but Purpura was in charge of all those scouts and coordinated all those meetings that landed and cultivated that talent in the Astros organization. Purpura wasn't "absent" the day Abreu and Santana were lost. These were, in fact, the GM's decision. The Astros *knew* how talented they were, but all organizations can only protect a certain number at each level and these losses are fairly common.

[nigma2000]

I am sorry but we don't go from one game being in to the world series to all of sudden let's rebuild with young guys. They are rebuilding one year too early. Management is just plain stupid there.

They should have gave Kent that second year and then go all out on Beltran even if it is over paying him if they had to. That would have been one outragous contract with Bagwell and Biggio coming off the books soon. 105 million offer is a competitve offer like they said but this is an all or nothing offseason to repeat the run.

Like people said there was no other worthy free agent. I would have done everything in my power to keep the same magical team, they had the chemistry.

[Nick]

Originally posted by NJRocket
You know what....I know you guys are all fans and want the best for the team. I just want to see what your feelings are if we dont do anything else this offseason other than lock up Vizcaino and Lamb and we are 15 games out of 1st in June.

Then you better start following the Yankees, Mets, or Red Sox... cause not every team goes out and signs big FA's every off-season.

I stand by the fact that the only big name everyday FA player that fit this team was Beltran. Sure, I'd "take" Beltre, Drew, or Finley if they were being handed to me... but I'd never build a team around any of those guys (and that's the type of money they recieved).

Clement? honestly, you haven't been watching him or else you'd see the Cubs starting Glendon Rusch in his place down the stretch.

The team that the Astros have to keep their eyes on is the Cardinals... both in terms of how they perform, and the type of roster they build (because they both have similiar payrolls, and play in similiar markets). They gave up a kings ransom to get Mulder (who is easilly injured), and they failed to re-sign Renteria... that's not that stellar of an off-season either.

BUT... you don't see them going out willy-nilly and signing big players just because they had good years. You HAVE to think about how they fit the team... how you plan on filling other needs once you commit their $$$... and how much of their performance is based on consistency, or just simply one big FA year (Drew, Beltre).

The name of the game for this, and all other mid-market teams, is still player-development. It gets you Berkman, Oswalt, and Lidge. And while it is currently dry at AA and AAA (save Astacio, Tavares, and Bucholz)... these things run in cycles... and Mitch Einertson and Troy Patton are going to RISE through the system in fast-track fashion.

I know its hard to think long-term, but once Beltran refused to re-sign, that's what this team has to do... even though a core of Berkman, Oswalt, Everett, Ensberg, and Lidge will still win you a fair share of games.

[bigtexxx]

Originally posted by Nick
and Mitch Einertson and Troy Patton are going to RISE through the system in fast-track fashion.

Troy Patton is a fantastic pitcher. I was thrilled the Astros got him, because I didn't want Rice to have to face him in a playoff situation. He should have gone top 3 rounds if it weren't for his idiotic demand that he wanted a $1 million signing bonus. Left handed, low 90s pitcher with a great future - from Tomball, too.

[Nick]

Originally posted by bigtexxx
Troy Patton is a fantastic pitcher. I was thrilled the Astros got him, because I didn't want Rice to have to face him in a playoff situation. He should have gone top 3 rounds if it weren't for his idiotic demand that he wanted a $1 million signing bonus. Left handed, low 90s pitcher with a great future - from Tomball, too.

Agreed... Drayton stepped up big time on this one... this team has NEVER picked a big-name draft pick because of $$$ issues, but Lance's dad (his agent) convinced him otherwise.

Too bad Lance's dad couldn't have represented Beltran.

[rocketlaunch]

our top level clubs in the minors are pretty bare. The lower levels that is a different story it is supposedly stockpiled.

Losing beltran our compensation is a first round supplemental and a 2nd round that is what purpura said tonite so that will help even more. 4 picks total in the first and 2nd round this year

[gunn]

Originally posted by msn
If the Astros are 15 games out of first by 1 June, I hope to see Taveras in CF and Burke at 2B.

Taveras better learn to drive the ball or he'll get busted inside by RHP at the major league level all year long.

[gunn]

Originally posted by Nick
and Mitch Einertson and Troy Patton are going to RISE through the system in fast-track fashion.

... as well as, Josh Muecke and Fernando Nieve

[Nick]

Originally posted by gunn
... as well as, Josh Muecke and Fernando Nieve

I just got goosebumps hearing those names (although Nieve struggled once he got to AA last year).

For a guy who followed Oswalt, Lidge, and Hernandez's careers in the minors... I'm pretty psyched when I see talent down there, because it DOES translate into major league success, and in the case of Oswalt and Lidge... major league greatness.

[gunn]

Originally posted by Nick
I just got goosebumps hearing those names (although Nieve struggled once he got to AA last year).

Have you had a chance to see Jimmy Barthmaier?

[Nick]

Originally posted by gunn
Have you had a chance to see Jimmy Barthmaier?

Not as young as Patton (he's 21), but he's a big guy... kinda reminds me of Qualls, and could very well end up as a bullpen/middle relief guy if he doesn't make it as a starter.

[gunn]

Originally posted by Nick
....(although Nieve struggled once he got to AA last year).

I would say his struggles were far less than the struggles Einertson saw when he hit low A. On a side note... Could the Astros have an Oswalt clone in Matt Albers? From what I've heard, the scouts are pretty high on him (although I don't think his stuff is quite up to Roy's caliber).

[Raven Lunatic]

I'm surprised by how much Willy Tavarez people are calling for. Did he even take one swing in AAA last season? Sure, he's fast and can play CF well, and those are things that will immediately transfer to the major league level...but you could be talking about a guy that hits less than Brad Ausmus. Do you want another guy like that on the team right now? I say give him a year (or at least half a year, depending on how he handles it) at triple A and go from there.

[NIKEstrad]

Originally posted by NJRocket
B
The Cards gave up HAren, Calero and some other schmuck for Mulder...the Braves gave up Thomas (who isnt any better than Lane if Lane is 1/2 as good as some of you make him out to be), Juan Cruz who cant find ther plate and some no name. Don't make it like we would have had to gut our entire farm system to get those guys.



Nice selective memory. You managed to leave out the centerpieces of BOTH deals.

"Some other schmuck" was Daric Barton, a catcher considered one of the best offensive prospects in baseball. Haren is probably better than any pitching prospect we could put up, and Calero is a rock solid reliever.

"Some no name" was Dan Meyer, a 24 year old lefty who was one of the Braves top pitching prospects, and is expected to be in the A's rotation this year. Juan Cruz has a tremendous arm and had a 2.75 ERA last year. Thomas and Lane are probably equals. Thomas is 2 years younger.

Point is, you don't get Hudson or Mulder without dipping into at least a couple of Astacio, Buchholz, Taveras, Backe type prospects. I think the Astros want to hold off doing that because we've got the ace already, and would prefer to develop another cheaply.

[Nick]

Maybe I confused Nieve struggling at AA with his playoff performance there... he actually was very good in the 3 games he started in the regular season (according to the stats).

Einterston did struggle at Tri-city... but he didn't play much there, and also hit a HR in the final week, so I'll wait till we get a bigger sample.

Still... the stuff he did in the Appy league is scary, and has never been done before.

[gunn]

Originally posted by Nick
Still... the stuff he did in the Appy league is scary, and has never been done before.

Absolutely. Hopefully he keeps showing the pop in his bat and his rookie league debut is more than just a fluke season.

[Fegwu]

For some weird reason I feel like we are going to over achieve and make the playoff this season. I just can't explain the details of this felling.

For my wish list- I want to see Taveras and Burke starting on opening day in centerfield and 2nd base respectively, and 1 and 2 in the batting order.

Now lets go spend some money on pitching.

[Xenon]

It certainly looks like its going to be a tough year. Burnitz isn't the answer at all. The guy struggled to hit .280 last season. Yes, 280 in Colorado is struggling. We can not have another automatic out in this lineup. I can't believe that this team is even considering him.

The person that I would really like to see as our new centerfielder is Shannon Stewart. He may not be the greatest defensively out there, but he can't do any worse than Biggio, Lane. We should be able to package some minor leaguers (Whiteman, Bucholz, Astacio) to make this happen. The Twins may demand Burke instead of Whiteman. We'd have to think long and hard about that one, but I think it still may work out best for us.

2B Burke/Biggio
CF Stewart
RF Berkman/Biggio?
1B Bagwell/Biggio
LF Lane/Biggio
3B Ensberg
SS Everett
C Ausmus

[Ottomaton]

Originally posted by Nick
Agreed... Drayton stepped up big time on this one... this team has NEVER picked a big-name draft pick because of $$$ issues, but Lance's dad (his agent) convinced him otherwise.

Too bad Lance's dad couldn't have represented Beltran.

This is mildly ironic. I guess you don't remember the big bonus that the Astros gave to Lance Berkman when he was one of the top 5-10 players in the draft but slid to 16 because of money issues.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Nick

Clement? honestly, you haven't been watching him or else you'd see the Cubs starting Glendon Rusch in his place down the stretch.

.

Rusch only made starts because of injuries to Prior and Wood (and possibly Clement IF HE WAS INJURED) down the stretch. Don't comment on what you don't know. He didnt take his spot in the rotation.

They gave up a kings ransom to get Mulder

Haren. Calero and some backup catcher....nice ransom

[Nick]

Originally posted by Ottomaton
This is mildly ironic. I guess you don't remember the big bonus that the Astros gave to Lance Berkman when he was one of the top 5-10 players in the draft but slid to 16 because of money issues.

Its different though... he was a bonafied 1st round pick, a college player of the year, and he would have eventually been picked by somebody in the 1st two rounds.

Patton was a HS who was all set to go to college, when the Astros finally bit in the 7th round. Slipping a couple of picks is one thing, but the fact that nobody was willing to meet Patton's demands but us is the reason I say Drayton stepped up.

This team does not normally draft the HS pitchers who usually have the ridiculous contract demands, yet have not really proven much in competitive baseball. In this case, they did...

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by NIKEstrad
"Some other schmuck" was Daric Barton, a catcher considered one of the best offensive prospects in baseball. Haren is probably better than any pitching prospect we could put up, and Calero is a rock solid reliever.

.

So now Daric Barton is Johnny Bench and Haren and Calero are the new nasty boys.....pullleeezze

[Nick]

Originally posted by NJRocket
Rusch only made starts because of injuries to Prior and Wood (and possibly Clement IF HE WAS INJURED) down the stretch. Don't comment on what you don't know. He didnt take his spot in the rotation.



Haren. Calero and some backup catcher....nice ransom

Dusty skipped Clement in the rotation down the stretch in September.... don't question me on facts, I'm not like other posters here.

"It is what it is," manager Dusty Baker said of Clement. "We'll probably skip him a turn, and hopefully he can have a couple of bullpens and get it together." Health does not appear to be an issue, so there might be a little punishment here. The Cubs thought they had the perfect plan to sweep Florida Monday when Mark Prior shut down the Marlins in the first game while many Cubs' hitters, including Sammy Sosa, rested for Game 2, in which Florida was starting reliever David Weathers against Clement. Then Clement allowed Weathers to out-pitch him. He's 0-2 with a 7.63 ERA in his last four starts. (taken from http://www.allstarstats.com/scb/lm/reports/player.asp?sport=BB&Leaguenum=0423&Mode=&X=6099&Y=0 , but you can find more on this in other places... I simply did a google search.)

Also, Haren was the Cardinals BEST pitcher down the stretch in the season, and he was the only one they had who could throw strikes in the World Series. Calero was their most effective relief pitcher for the entire season... he's a future setup guy/closer... and if you watched him against us, you know he's got wicked stuff.

All this for a guy who may have had his best years behind him in Mulder... I've spent a lot of time in St. Louis, and I can tell you that fans there are VERY weary of that deal... and these are the most knowledgeable fans in all of baseball.

Once again... I'm open to your criticism... as long as you do accept others as well, as all I did was state the facts.

[leroy420]

Originally posted by NJRocket
You know what....I know you guys are all fans and want the best for the team. I just want to see what your feelings are if we dont do anything else this offseason other than lock up Vizcaino and Lamb and we are 15 games out of 1st in June.


Well, some of us would still be fans and go to the games to cheer on the Astros no matter what. I hope you would, too.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Nick
Dusty skipped Clement in the rotation down the stretch in September.... don't question me on facts, I'm not like other posters here.

"It is what it is," manager Dusty Baker said of Clement. "We'll probably skip him a turn, and hopefully he can have a couple of bullpens and get it together." Health does not appear to be an issue, so there might be a little punishment here. The Cubs thought they had the perfect plan to sweep Florida Monday when Mark Prior shut down the Marlins in the first game while many Cubs' hitters, including Sammy Sosa, rested for Game 2, in which Florida was starting reliever David Weathers against Clement. Then Clement allowed Weathers to out-pitch him. He's 0-2 with a 7.63 ERA in his last four starts. (taken from http://www.allstarstats.com/scb/lm/reports/player.asp?sport=BB&Leaguenum=0423&Mode=&X=6099&Y=0 , but you can find more on this in other places... I simply did a google search.)

.

Matt Clement, who came out of Sunday's start because of a sore neck, said he'd be ready to start Saturday in Florida.
"It feels like a day after, maybe a little achier than normal," Clement said. Source: Arlington Daily Herald


Matt Clement - S - Boston Red Sox Free Agent Aug 29
Matt Clement left today's game in the fifth inning with an undisclosed injury.
Kent Mercker replaced him. Clement gave up four runs in 4 1/3 innings.


Matt Clement - S - Boston Red Sox Free Agent Aug 29
Matt Clement left today's game with an upper back and neck strain.
Clement is day-to-day. If he can't make his next start, Glendon Rusch will fill in for him.


Matt Clement - S - Boston Red Sox Free Agent Aug 29
Matt Clement doesn't expect to miss any additional time after leaving today's game with an upper back and neck strain.
It looks like Glendon Rusch will remain in the pen.


HE WAS INJURED



Also, Haren was the Cardinals BEST pitcher down the stretch in the season, and he was the only one they had who could throw strikes in the World Series. Calero was their most effective relief pitcher for the entire season... he's a future setup guy/closer... and if you watched him against us, you know he's got wicked stuff

There were 3 or 4 guys in their bullpen with as good as or better ERAs than Calero....As for Haren...40 something innings with a 4.50 ERA isn't anything to write home about

[Nick]

Yet Dusty and Clement himself said he was not hurt by the time he was able to make starts in September... (its in the quote I posted).

A lot of Chicagoans saw thru this guy has a head case and a career underachiever... that's why I call him Redding-lite. If they really thought he was worth it, they gladly would have shelled over the $$$. They didn't... and the Red Sox (who have now taken a risk on two NL central pitchers) did.

As for Calero... he had a 2.78 ERA while filling Lidge's role of two years ago. As far as everyday relievers, only Julian "the head case" Tavarez was a better righty. They gave up quality to get quality... and any time you do a 3 for 1, it could always end up backfiring.

[SamCassell]

Say what you want about Clement, his ERA was better than any starter in their rotation last season except Zambrano - better than Kerry Wood, better than Prior, better than Maddux. He's not a star, but he's a solid pitcher. $6m was probably too high, but the SP market went sky high this offseason for some reason. Dusty Baker, btw, is an idiot. I don't think you can base anything on his expertise.

Danny Haren and Kiko Calero were both good relievers for the Cards last season. Haren's a prospect who's probably going to end up being a #3 starter. Good, not great stuff, and he's young still. Calero a future closer? You talk about him like he's a prospect, but he's already 30. He's as good as he's going to get. Neither are anywhere close to Mark Mulder, a hard throwing, young, lefty starter who's averaged 18 wins a year over the past 4. If Mulder's injured, or Barton develops into a good player (probably not a catcher, he's got a weak arm. LF or 1B is likely) then Oakland got over on the Cards. If he's healthy, it was an absolute steal for St. Louis.

[RocketFan007]

Guys, please stop quoting NJRocket so much, even though he's on ignore, I can still see his drivel.

[NJRocket]

I guess I'm flattered in a strange sort of way:D

[Rileydog]

NJ Rocket: I'm as upset, pissed off and generally frustrated as you are. But I can see what the Astros decided.

1. Last year's team was 1 game from the world series. But also, last year's team was terrible for 1/2 the year, then caught lightning in a botte. The truth is that the team was really soemthing in between. A good but not great team. Perhaps if we brought Beltran back, we could make the huge push again. Perhaps. But even in the best case, Biggio and Bagwell are older. Maybe Clemens comes back, maybe not.

2. The plan B's, the beltre, finley, etc, that have been discussed. I honestly don't think they would have been enough. We needed Beltran's entire game, a MVP type person to help in every facet of the game.

3. Should we have broken the bank for Beltran? I think you argued we should. (if i recall incorrectly, sorry). My heart agrees. The GM in me says no. Our offer was fair and the right one. If we could have landed Beltran at 105MM, we would still need to spend some money on building a legit contender.

The Burba, Wendell garbage you're seeing now would not have been the course. I think we would have spent extra to get the alloy rims on the brand new Mercedes.

4. We are where we are. The question is where we go. I think it would be foolish to spend money in anything other than relief pitching and maybe Burnitz on a 1 year deal. If Lane and Burke can play, let them play. if they exceed expectations, maybe we make that Randy Johnson acquisition.

5. I'm trying to recall our Randy Johnson team. I htink we had Johnson, Hampton, Reynolds, Dotel, Jackson and Wagner. Our lineup was Biggio, Bagwell, Berry, Bell, Lugo, Ward, and some other folks. (I'm sure I'm leavig out someone).

This year's team is about the same caliber. Oswalt, Pettitte, Backe (maybe Clemens), (no middle relief except Qualls), Lidge. Berkman, Bagwell, Biggio, Lane, Burke, Ensberg/Lamb. Lets just see what happens.

The reality is that we, as fans, have never experienced anything like last year. Indeed, I felt envious of all the other cities that have teams that are regularly in the postseason hunt. it sucks to be asked to surrender that excitement and hope. But that's MLB and the crappy no salary cap system we have. Maybe we'll outpeform.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rileydog
5. I'm trying to recall our Randy Johnson team. I htink we had Johnson, Hampton, Reynolds, Dotel, Jackson and Wagner. Our lineup was Biggio, Bagwell, Berry, Bell, Lugo, Ward, and some other folks. (I'm sure I'm leavig out someone).

This year's team is about the same caliber. Oswalt, Pettitte, Backe (maybe Clemens), (no middle relief except Qualls), Lidge. Berkman, Bagwell, Biggio, Lane, Burke, Ensberg/Lamb. Lets just see what happens.

.

good point....i cant debate that

[xiki]

Originally posted by Rileydog
Indeed, I felt envious of all the other cities that have teams that are regularly in the postseason hunt. it sucks to be asked to surrender that excitement and hope. But that's MLB and the crappy no salary cap system we have. Maybe we'll outpeform.

Yankees, Red Sox, Atlanta are in the hunt every summer. Who else? Otherwise, it's a lot of one season wonders. Who else always appear to be legit October contenders with legit chance to win a LCS?

Angels, Mariners, Twinkies, Cards, A's? Good teams usually. Not year in/year out squads. Mets, Phils, Dodgers spend a fortune and fall flat by May 1.

If Pettite is healthy. If Clemens comes back, and continues to define time. If Roy O keeps his groin intact. (Same for Cubbies staff). If a trading deadline deal is made. Then, a contender exists.

All hope is not dead.

WS? Yanks or Red Sox v ? Why not Clemens and Pettite making back page headlines in the NY tabs?

[MadMax]

Originally posted by xiki
Yankees, Red Sox, Atlanta are in the hunt every summer. Who else? Otherwise, it's a lot of one season wonders. Who else always appear to be legit October contenders with legit chance to win a LCS?

Angels, Mariners, Twinkies, Cards, A's? Good teams usually. Not year in/year out squads. Mets, Phils, Dodgers spend a fortune and fall flat by May 1.

If Pettite is healthy. If Clemens comes back, and continues to define time. If Roy O keeps his groin intact. (Same for Cubbies staff). If a trading deadline deal is made. Then, a contender exists.

All hope is not dead.

WS? Yanks or Red Sox v ? Why not Clemens and Pettite making back page headlines in the NY tabs?

and...it should be noted...we have the 5th best winning percentage in all of MLB over the past 10 seasons. that's not shabby. admittedly, it doesn't earn you a championship parade and a big trophy...but it's hard to argue the astros aren't in the playoff hunt virtually every season. which is what was being said.

[SamCassell]

Originally posted by Rileydog
I'm trying to recall our Randy Johnson team. I htink we had Johnson, Hampton, Reynolds, Dotel, Jackson and Wagner. Our lineup was Biggio, Bagwell, Berry, Bell, Lugo, Ward, and some other folks. (I'm sure I'm leavig out someone).
No Dotel... he came in the Hampton trade. Elarton was the setup guy. That Mike Jackson fiasco was another year. Lima was our 4th starter and won 16 games. Pretty sure every starter in our rotation won double figures. Biggio and Bagwell were absolute studs that year (until the postseason), now they're average players. Berry and Spiers were a good platoon at 3B. Oh yea - you've also left out guys like Moises Alou and Carl Everett. They were bit players I guess, easy to forget.

Your comparison is really poor. Unit/Hampton/Reynolds/Lima was at least as good as Clemens/Oswalt/Pettite/Backe, and Bagwell/Biggio/Alou/Everett/Berry/Bell was a much, much, much better lineup than Berkman/Bagwell/Biggio/Ensberg/Lane/Burke.

[Rileydog]

Sam,

Thanks. memory gets fuzzy. hated that jackson debacle.

I'd take Clemens/Oswalt/Pettitte/Backe over the Johnson led staff any day. you're probably right about the hitting, although much depends on how well Burke and Lane play. The two squads are reasonably similar.

madmax,

I'd probably add the Giants to that list. They always seem to be in the playoffs or right in the hunt.l

[xiki]

Originally posted by Rileydog
Sam,

Thanks. memory gets fuzzy. hated that jackson debacle.



Memory IS fuzzy...details on said fiasco, please.

[Rileydog]

we had a late game lead against ATL. I think 8th inning. Dierker brought in Mike the thriller Jackson instead of Dotel. Jackson got hammered and we lost. Killed our chances in the series.

[SamCassell]

From what I remember - 8th inning, game 1, Stros up by a run at home, Dotel available but Dierker brings in Mike Jackson to pitch. He gives up a run and the lead (Wags went on to finish the choke job). Stros never recovered in that series, Dierker gets the axe. Think the famous quote by Dierker about his decision was "Check the record."

[gwayneco]

Originally posted by SamCassell
No Dotel... he came in the Hampton trade. Elarton was the setup guy. That Mike Jackson fiasco was another year. Lima was our 4th starter and won 16 games. Pretty sure every starter in our rotation won double figures. Biggio and Bagwell were absolute studs that year (until the postseason), now they're average players. Berry and Spiers were a good platoon at 3B. Oh yea - you've also left out guys like Moises Alou and Carl Everett. They were bit players I guess, easy to forget.

Your comparison is really poor. Unit/Hampton/Reynolds/Lima was at least as good as Clemens/Oswalt/Pettite/Backe, and Bagwell/Biggio/Alou/Everett/Berry/Bell was a much, much, much better lineup than Berkman/Bagwell/Biggio/Ensberg/Lane/Burke.

The 98 team led the league in runs scored and was second in ERA.

[gunn]

Originally posted by MadMax
and...it should be noted...we have the 5th best winning percentage in all of MLB over the past 10 seasons.

Max, I think you have fallen too deeply in love with this stat.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by gunn
Max, I think you have fallen too deeply in love with this stat.

I believe his point is that every year for the last 10 years (except 2000) the Astros have been in the playoff hunt in September. Not many teams can say that. In addition, by always being in the hunt, the Astros have seldom had the opportunity to dump veterans in favor of youngsters with potential at the trading deadline.

[gunn]

Originally posted by bobrek
I believe his point is that every year for the last 10 years (except 2000) the Astros have been in the playoff hunt in September. Not many teams can say that. In addition, by always being in the hunt, the Astros have seldom had the opportunity to dump veterans in favor of youngsters with potential at the trading deadline.

I think we all clearly understand the point.

[CAKoudelka]

At some point though, you have to quit accepting making it to the playoffs as a "good season", especially when the goal for the organization is to make it to the World Series. Am I saying I dont appreciate the fact that we have been in the playoffs ? No, not at all.

I honestly dont think Drayton ever had a plan b, I think the plan the whole way was to go young, I really dont think Drayton ever was that interested in obtaining Carlos or any other free agent, not cause they werent interested, cause he doesnt wanna spend the money.

I can tell you I would feel much more comfortable with a guy like Finley or Drew in the OF and Biggio back at 2nd base. I would feel a lot better about our pitching staff with Lowe, Pedro, Mulder or Hudson.

We didn't go after other premier free agents not because of Beltran but because Drayton/Purpura want to go with the young guys

I would have sworn that Tim/Drayton claimed early on in the "negotiations" for CB that we were not pursuing any other players because they were dedicated to bringing CB back ???? Anybody else remember that ? Maybe I am still pissed over the whole thing, but the more these two idiots divulge about the negotiations, the more I lose respect for both

oh well, heres to a wonderful 05 season

[Raven Lunatic]

Originally posted by NJRocket
The Cards gave up HAren, Calero and some other schmuck for Mulder...

Originally posted by NIKEstrad
"Some other schmuck" was Daric Barton, a catcher considered one of the best offensive prospects in baseball. Haren is probably better than any pitching prospect we could put up, and Calero is a rock solid reliever.

Originally posted by NJRocket
So now Daric Barton is Johnny Bench and Haren and Calero are the new nasty boys.....pullleeezze

Originally posted by NJRocket
Don't comment on what you don't know.

I think you said it best yourself.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Raven Lunatic
I think you said it best yourself.

Are you happy now that you wasted 15 minutes putting that together? If you are debating that Haren and Calero are journeymen type pitchers at best...and regardless of how good a prospect Barton is, he is still a prospect....then you need to take the advice yourself.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by gunn
Max, I think you have fallen too deeply in love with this stat.

as i was posting it, i knew you'd respond like this.

i hear ya...it's not a championship. but that wasn't what i was saying. i was responding to a post that said we weren't in the playoff hunt from year to year. that's false. and the stat i'm in love with refutes it directly. it was not the argument that you and i have had here from time to time.

[Rileydog]

mmax, I think I started this discussion about being envious of cities that have teams that are in it year after year. Let me attempt to refine the thought a little.

1. I agree that the Yanks, Sox, ATL (I might add the Giants) are the teams that seem to be regulars. Houston is mired in a group of pretty good franchises that frequently visit the playoffs.

2. Your stat talks about our actual performance in the last decade. It's undeniable and a hard, real number. But what stinks is that only once or twice have I ever believed that our team was actually good enough to do anything other than get pummeled in the first round.

3. With the Randy Johnson team and 1994 Stros, it was a completely different feeling. It was something far greater than mere hope and sitting in the crowd with your fingers crossed, praying that something good will happen. It was knowing that you had players that could and would make it happen. That feeling was the core of our excitement last year, which is the focus of my point.

I'm envious of cities with teams that have that feeling every year, regardless of how it actually pans out. I'd say that the Yanks, Sox and ATL generally have that confidence. (kinda explains a lot about their fans, but that's a different topic.) To a lesser degree, it seems that the A's (the big 3), Cards (modern murders row), Cubs (tantalized with young power arms, but damn they have under performed) and Giants (even lesser degree) have those kind of teams.

4. As I type this, I realize that maybe what this all boils back down to is Biggio and Bagwell. Too long ago, they established an expectation of failure from the fans and thus blunted the possible excitement and hope. During their time here, we have only been confident and excited when the teams' playoff hopes were pinned on talents other than theirs . . . Johnson, Clemens, Beltran. And maybe that's the real rub of the Beltran situation. We're back to ol' Biggio and Bagwell.

[MadMax]

biggio and bagwell did pretty darn well in the playoffs this past season, riley.

i would say we had a legit shot in every postseason we hit except 97. second worst shot was 01, in my opinion, because of oswalt's injury...without that injury, i would say their chances were fine, going in. but 98, 99 and 04...i felt good about all of those years, going in.

but we will never have the expectations...or even the justification for the expectations..that yankees fans or red sox fans have every year. we don't have that kind of revenue base. we just don't. until the playing field is made more level, that's the way it goes.

[Rileydog]

Mmax,

B&B did fine last year, but I think that was because they were the 3rd and 5th best/most important hitters on the team.

[edit} B&B did more than fine, they were good. Maybe it's not their fault that the stros didn't succeed when hopes were pinned on them. maybe they didn't have the help like they did last year. But the fact is, we're back to relying on ol B&B, which is all to familiar and a bit underwhelming.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Rileydog
Mmax,

B&B did fine last year, but I think that was because they were the 3rd and 5th best/most important hitters on the team.

[edit} B&B did more than fine, they were good. Maybe it's not their fault that the stros didn't succeed when hopes were pinned on them. maybe they didn't have the help like they did last year. But the fact is, we're back to relying on ol B&B, which is all to familiar and a bit underwhelming.

i'm not sure that's true. we're relying on a good starting staff..hopefully with clemens returning...and we're relying on berkman and young talent as well.

remember...when the astros fell apart in previous postseasons, it wasn't just biggio and bagwell looking stupid...freaking everyone on the the team couldn't hit. it's like they ALL went into slumps. alou, carl everett, caminiti, berry, and on and on. they all went into slumps. and not just slumps...they all looked silly at the plate.

[msn]

Originally posted by Rileydog
But the fact is, we're back to relying on ol B&B, which is all to familiar and a bit underwhelming.
I'm so glad to be familiar with ten years of B&B than ten years of whatever the hell the Pirates, Orioles, Blue Jays, Reds, Royals, etc. have been familiar with for the last ten years.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rileydog
Mmax,

B&B did fine last year, but I think that was because they were the 3rd and 5th best/most important hitters on the team.

.


I agree...they had tremendous lineup protection last year

[gunn]

Originally posted by MadMax
as i was posting it, i knew you'd respond like this.

i hear ya...it's not a championship. but that wasn't what i was saying. i was responding to a post that said we weren't in the playoff hunt from year to year. that's false. and the stat i'm in love with refutes it directly. it was not the argument that you and i have had here from time to time.

I hear ya; my comment was primarily in jest.

[Raven Lunatic]

Originally posted by NJRocket
Are you happy now that you wasted 15 minutes putting that together? If you are debating that Haren and Calero are journeymen type pitchers at best...and regardless of how good a prospect Barton is, he is still a prospect....then you need to take the advice yourself.

My response had nothing to do with Haren and Calero. As Nikestrad pointed out, the centerpiece of the trade WAS Barton. You can try to downplay it all you want with the "still a prospect" talk, but there's a reason some of the best GMs in the league make lots and lots of money every year finding guys like him. It's because they usually amount to more than "some backup catcher." If you would just admit that you didn't do your research before making a judgement on that trade, it would be one thing. But instead you try to manipulate the value of blue chip prospects to save some face.

Oh, and if what I posted previously would have taken you 15 minutes to do, then I am sorry you're slow. Copy and paste is your friend.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Raven Lunatic
My response had nothing to do with Haren and Calero. As Nikestrad pointed out, the centerpiece of the trade WAS Barton. You can try to downplay it all you want with the "still a prospect" talk, but there's a reason some of the best GMs in the league make lots and lots of money every year finding guys like him. It's because they usually amount to more than "some backup catcher." If you would just admit that you didn't do your research before making a judgement on that trade, it would be one thing. But instead you try to manipulate the value of blue chip prospects to save some face.

Oh, and if what I posted previously would have taken you 15 minutes to do, then I am sorry you're slow. Copy and paste is your friend.

You know a guy runs out of ammo when he has to resort to insults...I stand by what I said..

Haren is probably better than any pitching prospect we could put up, and Calero is a rock solid reliever.

looks to me like he said that Haren and Calero were big pieces of the trade since he debated me by telling me that we had no one as good as Haren to give up and certainly didnt have a "rock solid reliever" (other than lidge) on the team

as for the 15 minutes thing...sorry - i guess i hit a nerve

[Raven Lunatic]

Originally posted by NJRocket
You know a guy runs out of ammo when he has to resort to insults...

As opposed to starting off your post making fun of me for taking the time to properly space out the replies I accumulated? Show me where I insulted you.

Originally posted by NJRocket
looks to me like he said that Haren and Calero were big pieces of the trade since he debated me by telling me that we had no one as good as Haren to give up and certainly didnt have a "rock solid reliever" (other than lidge) on the team

This is true, and I don't have enough knowledge of Haren to say if his value leans more towards your opinion or Nikestrad's. Calero is a solid reliever who had a pretty season last year. Nikestrad's overall point was that the package of Haren, Calero and Barton was a significant one, and more than you seemed to think it was. Your knowledge of Barton's value was directly related to that.

Originally posted by NJRocket
as for the 15 minutes thing...sorry - i guess i hit a nerve

Quite the opposite. All I did was point out it didn't take as long as you seemed to think. The fact that you even bothered to criticize how much time or effort I put into my posts makes me think I hit a nerve.

[NIKEstrad]

Originally posted by NJRocket

looks to me like he said that Haren and Calero were big pieces of the trade since he debated me by telling me that we had no one as good as Haren to give up and certainly didnt have a "rock solid reliever" (other than lidge) on the team

as for the 15 minutes thing...sorry - i guess i hit a nerve

Haren was a top level pitching prospect coming into the season, and a low 3s ERA in the 2nd half did nothing to change that status- he's still 24. You thought Astacio was good this year? Haren only pitched 8 games in AA at 23, because he went 6-1 with a 0.82 ERA, and a 49/6 K/BB ratio. We haven't had a prospect like that since the Oswalt/Redding/Hernandez class. How you write off a 24 year old with a mid-90s fastball and made the jump from AA to the majors in one season as a "journeyman" is beyond me.

Calero is one of the better setup men in the league. If you watched the NLCS, you saw the type of stuff he has, and the command of it.

As I said..."Some other schmuck" was Daric Barton, a catcher considered one of the best offensive prospects in baseball

Scouts were RAVING about him, and he was Moneyball personified- at age 19, playing catcher, with an OBP over .400, and an OPS in the .900s, plus more walks than strikeouts- by comparison, our big 18 year old prospect Mitch Einertson had twice as many walks than strikeouts. You not only failed to mention him by name, but dismissed him as some other schmuck.

The fact is, Calero was probably the least of the 3 players they gave up- and we would struggle to find 3 Calero-like talents to give up. Baseball Prospectus rated our current system as the 28th best in the league right now. The free agent acquisitions of recent years (Pettitte, Kent) caused us to lose our high draft picks, and so we haven't reloaded quite as fast. As a result, our top prospects are mostly projectable guys like Nieve and Patton, who are in all likelihood a couple years away from being real commodities.

As I said, we don't have an offensive prospect in the same realm as Barton. It's debatable if we have a pitching prospect like Haren. And I wish we had a reliever we could rely on to deliver a low 3.00s ERA in front of Lidge.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Raven Lunatic


This is true, and I don't have enough knowledge of Haren to say if his value leans more towards your opinion or Nikestrad's.

Then stay out of the discussion instead of chiming in ...Nike doesn't need your help in debating this

Nike - my point from post 1 was that it didn't take a king's ransom to get these guys (Mulder/Hudson)...and we won't know what the A's thought of our prospects because we basically had one goal (or maybe none based on recent quotes by purpura) and didnt give anything else a chance to materialize. That being said, who knows what will be of Mulder...he didnt seem to be close to 100% last year....but we never gave ourselves a chance to find out.

[leroy420]

Originally posted by NJRocket
Are you happy now that you wasted 15 minutes putting that together? If you are debating that Haren and Calero are journeymen type pitchers at best...and regardless of how good a prospect Barton is, he is still a prospect....then you need to take the advice yourself.

NJR, you really need to read "Moneyball". Once you do, you will understand that you should always assume that Billy Beane knows something that you don't know. This guy is a genius when it comes to aquiring players that continue to make the A's competitive w/o any money. It wasn't about aquiring players that the average fan (or even scout in many cases) thinks is good or not. Beane thinks that Haren, Calero and Barton are players that fit into his mold of what makes the A's a good team. It's possible that Beane didn't think any of the Astros prospects fit. He's already got the one that he wrote about in the book, Kirk Saarloos.

[Raven Lunatic]

Originally posted by NJRocket
Then stay out of the discussion instead of chiming in ...Nike doesn't need your help in debating this.

I agree. Nikestrad is doing a damn good job of shredding your points by himself, so I will bow out. But since you apparently had little to no knowledge of Haren, Calero or Barton's value before you declared that Mulder trade so one sided, perhaps you should take your own advice and stay out of discussions concerning things you don't know about.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Raven Lunatic
I will bow out. .

good idea