Everything Beltran related!

[Alimoe84]

Ok people, this is hard for me to say right now because I am as pissed off as the next diehard Astros fan that we couldn't sign Beltran. Do you all remember how excited we were last offseason? When we got Pettitte and Clemens? Half of the people here didn't even know who Carlos Beltran was. Even without Carlos our team was predicted to compete for the WS. Well we all know how the season started. Then we acquire Beltran knowing that he's probably another rental like Randy Johnson, but the magical run in the regular season and post season made us fall in love with Beltran and Astros baseball all over again. What I'm trying to say is that when Beltran comes to Houston in another uniform, I hope all of us fans can remember what a magical run he and and the rest of the team gave us. He might not be in an Astros uniform anymore, but theres no doubt that he played as hard as he could whenever he put that jersey on. Making sliding catches, tattooing the baseball etc. I just really hope that this city takes the opportunity that we'll have to show some class and not boo this guy, because for the first time in my lifetime, he gave me something to do in October.

[bottlerocket]

Sorry still booing.

Beltran lied to us saying that it wasn't about the $$$. I should have know he like the rest. It's all about the $$$.
Where is Jerry MaGuire when u need 'em.

[bigtexxx]

I'm going to boo him. He should have let us know earlier that he was all about the money. He screwed us out of making other offseason moves. I won't cheer that greedy sack of poop.

[Trader_Jorge]

Heck no I'm not booing Beltran. Why? Do you not prefer more money to less money? Drayton McLane continued his penny-pinching ways when we could least afford to do so. He got burned. Plain and simple. This negotiation boiled down to MONEY. Drayton wouldn't pay to play. Good luck fielding a winner next year, Drayton. Please God, sell the team to someone who recognizes the value of paying for talent. Please.

Drayton is one of the richest owners in the game. There is absolutely no excuse for this. Especially when you consider the new regional sports network that is in the works. No excuse but stinginess on the part of McLane. AGAIN.

[weakfromtoday]

What's the advantage of not booing? We might get him in 2012?
I don't think it matters. He will probably hear plenty of boos in NY even if he is playing well. I wouldn't call him an enemy of the Astros by any means, but I don't think a warm welcome is really justified. I think complete silence might be a better option. He gets called up to bat and MMP goes completely silent.

[Uprising]

I am so booing his ass. Screw him for not coming here.

Man....I had to drink forget tonight instead of drinking in celebration. Damnit....I can't ebelive we didn'ast get him!

[adw]

I'll be booing his greedy ass all day :mad:

[Uprising]

make us wait this long, and miss out on the other big FA....damn you. DAMN YOU!

[HoneyNut Ichiro]

It depends on where he signs...if he goes to the Mets for $106 million, I'm gonna boo until I can't talk anymore. If he goes to the Yankees, however, for $150 million, then maybe not.

[Uprising]

as long as he stays out of our division!

[steddinotayto]

Why NOT boo beltran? If it wasn't for him being traded to the Astros, he would have NEVER had a postseason like that (ESPECIALLY during a contract season) in Kansas City. That postseason bumped his value up so much that the Mets are willing to overpay.

[rezdawg]

Im booing. And throwing sh!t at him.

[LongTimeFan]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
Heck no I'm not booing Beltran. Why? Do you not prefer more money to less money? Drayton McLane continued his penny-pinching ways when we could least afford to do so. He got burned. Plain and simple. This negotiation boiled down to MONEY. Drayton wouldn't pay to play. Good luck fielding a winner next year, Drayton. Please God, sell the team to someone who recognizes the value of paying for talent. Please.

Drayton is one of the richest owners in the game. There is absolutely no excuse for this. Especially when you consider the new regional sports network that is in the works. No excuse but stinginess on the part of McLane. AGAIN.

And you base that on what? I hope it wasn't the Beltran negotiations, or your baseball creditibility might be shot.

Oh yeah, BOOOOO

[BigM]

i'm going to have a hard time booing him because one of my best astros memories is now of the incredible show he put on for us last year in the playoffs. but a part of me now really believes he had no intention of signing here at all and used us to increase an offer from either of the new york teams. f#$k it, boo the traiter!

[Aceshigh7]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
Heck no I'm not booing Beltran. Why? Do you not prefer more money to less money? Drayton McLane continued his penny-pinching ways when we could least afford to do so. He got burned. Plain and simple. This negotiation boiled down to MONEY. Drayton wouldn't pay to play. Good luck fielding a winner next year, Drayton. Please God, sell the team to someone who recognizes the value of paying for talent. Please.

Drayton is one of the richest owners in the game. There is absolutely no excuse for this. Especially when you consider the new regional sports network that is in the works. No excuse but stinginess on the part of McLane. AGAIN.

You are a long time respected poster and I have read some very good posts from you in the past, but come now, there is alot of ignorance in this post tonight. I used to believe Drayton was a penny pincher, but no more. The offer he made Beltran was EXTREMELY generous by market standards.

You say Drayton is one of the richest owners in the game. No owner in major league baseball is going to run their team out of pocket like it is a hobby. These teams are run as businesses, and the payroll comes out of income generated by these teams.

Also, I thought the proposed new sports network idea was scrapped?

I really wanted Beltran too and I am hurt and betrayed tonight, but we should'nt blame Drayton. He sincerely did everything he could and should have to bring Beltran here. Blame classless,greedy, hypocritical Carlos Beltran.

[noscrusir]

ALl about the money... bOOOOOO!

[tim562]

Hell, No, I am booing.

And I am bringing all my buddies with me to boo his dumbass too.

I encourage EVERYONE to do the same

Man, Screw Beltran, I am so pissed right now.

I can assure everyone, he is going to be royally booed when he comes to Minute Maid; as he should be.

[Davidoff]

I am not as big of a Astros fan as some of ya'll I am a HARDCORE Rockets fan so I understand why so many are pissed off, if this were to happen with the ROX and some young talent I would be pissed off too...I say BOOOO away..

[drapg]

Originally posted by bigtexxx
I'm going to boo him. He should have let us known earlier that he was all about the money. He screwed us out of making other offseason moves. I won't cheer that greedy sack of poop.

100% agreed.

I'll boo him 'till I'm blue in the face.

[Oski2005]

Of course we should boo him, like texxx said, if we had known he was all about the cash, we wouldn't have wasted such precious time waiting for Boras to throw us little scraps of negotation time. Vladimir Guerrero is a better player and he's making way less than Beltran, so we were going to overpay if we got him. The only reason we should be upset with Drayton is the fact that we were willing to overpay Beltran this season, yet we couldn't have gone after a guy like Vlad when the market was in our favor last season?

[Willis25]

I don't normally like to boo a player - but it was all about the money - the Mets a garbage (even with CB) AND the few million more he gets out of them will be eaten up in taxes and living expenses


of course his agent's cut will be more :rolleyes:

[T_in_Charlotte]

Why boo? both teams will be 25 games under .500 by the time that finally happens, so they will be lucky that any of the 15,000 in attendance even notice or care.

[Rockets10]

i just wish there was a way where i could applaud him for like 10 seconds for what he did here last year, and then just boo the crap out of him for the rest of the time.

[ima_drummer2k]

I'm not going to boo him.....but I will spit on him and slap his ugly wife.

[Buck Turgidson]

This sucks. Really sucks. ****ed again by the Mets.

No possible way I'm ever going to boo the guy. He was the player singularly most responsible for the greatest playoff run in the history of the Astros. From the beginning, I said that if Beltran was running the negotiations there was a better than 50/50 shot that he stays in Houston; if Boras is calling the shots then there was virtually no chance. Boras played the game his way, his mastery of promotion, especially the media, is really remarkable...he would have made an excellent circus barker back in the day. Given the ****ed up financial situation of MLB, he played the game to perfection.

Unfortunately, I will never have an opportunity to "boo", heckle, kick the dog of, piss on the Xmas tee of, and throw bags of piss on to, Satan Boras, Don Fehr, and the rest of the suits at the MLBPA and the corporate office, but I will never boo Carlos Beltran.

The Mets however, are, after years upon year of utter suckitude since '86 (+/- a season or two), back upon my ****list.

The Mets will not make the playoffs this year.

[The Real Shady]

**** Beltran!! I'm booing his ass, and would go Piston fan on him and pelt him with beer if I could. We made him a good offer and he ****ed us. BOOOOO!!!

[MoBalls]

I cried myself to sleep last night :(

[ima_drummer2k]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
Heck no I'm not booing Beltran. Why? Do you not prefer more money to less money? Drayton McLane continued his penny-pinching ways when we could least afford to do so. He got burned. Plain and simple. This negotiation boiled down to MONEY. Drayton wouldn't pay to play. Good luck fielding a winner next year, Drayton. Please God, sell the team to someone who recognizes the value of paying for talent. Please.

Drayton is one of the richest owners in the game. There is absolutely no excuse for this. Especially when you consider the new regional sports network that is in the works. No excuse but stinginess on the part of McLane. AGAIN.
Of course, all of this is completely moot if Beltran had no intention of signing here in the first place and was just *using* the Astros to get more money from the Mets....

[Lil Francis]

We should all throw monopoly money at him and ask him if thats enough for is ungrateful sorry ass.

[fya]

Booing is part of the game. Beltran is just another punk now.

[wakkoman]

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_perspectives.jsp?ymd=20050109&content_id=929068&vkey=perspectives&fext=.jsp

HOUSTON -- There will be a few misguided individuals who, needing someone to blame for Carlos Beltran's departure, will direct their recriminations at Houston general manager Tim Purpura.

To those who would pillory Purpura because Beltran held the Houston Astros hostage to the 11th hour Saturday night before doing what he obviously intended to do all along -- go for the green -- we say why stop there?

Why not blame Purpura for the price of gas or the weather? That would make about as much sense as blaming him for Beltran bolting.

The fact is the Astros gave Beltran $100 million reasons to return. All of the talk about wanting to play for a winner and liking Houston and playing in warm weather were clearly nothing more than calculated posturing designed to get more money. At least Randy Johnson, after the Astros traded for him during the playoff drive of '98, made it clear to the organization he would not re-sign with them when the season was over.

Agent Scott Boras could have informed the Astros weeks ago that they had no shot at bringing his client back. But that's not Boras' job. His job is to get his clients top dollar, and Beltran will now get that from some other club.

Purpura and the Astros had little choice but to take Boras and Beltran at their word, putting everything else on hold. The Astros didn't want to pursue other free agent outfielders and perhaps send the wrong message to Beltran as well as take up money that could be used to sweeten the offer to the budding superstar. Meanwhile, Boras used Houston as a foil to try and start a bidding war between the two New York teams.

"We went as far as we could to get it done, but in the end we ran out of time," Purpura said. "Despite all of our best efforts, we weren't able to get it done and it's certainly very disappointing."

The Astros first offered $70 million, then $75 million, then $84 million and finally $100 million over seven years with a chance to make it $112 million over eight years if the 2012 option was granted. The final offer was more money than Houston has ever offered any player, and that includes Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio, Johnson or Roger Clemens. And it wasn't enough.

That's as much money as Cardinals first baseman Albert Pujols received on his extension last year and more than Angels outfielder Vladimir Guerrero got last year, two players whose statistics clearly surpass Beltran's, and Pujols is three years younger. And it wasn't enough.

Perhaps, in the end it will work out well for the Astros. The baseball landscape is littered with long-term deals that have failed spectacularly (think Jason Giambi, Mo Vaughn, Denny Neagle, and Houston's own disappointment with a promising young outfielder coming off a breakout season a few years ago, a guy named Richard Hidalgo).

For all of his obvious gifts, Beltran is still only a career .284 hitter who has hit more than 30 home runs in a season just once. While Beltran may prove to be the kind of talent along the lines of Guerrero or Pujols, he hasn't done it on a grand scale yet, with the exception of his 12 postseason games this past season. And that followed a July 1 -- October 3 stretch during which Beltran hit .249.

But Houston was willing to gamble he was a budding superstar. You could say Purpura and the Astros didn't do what could reasonably be expected to bring back Beltran. They went above and beyond that.

Purpura and baseball operations president Tal Smith are known in the industry for being shrewd when it comes to putting a dollar sign on talent. They knew a fair price for Beltran, and owner Drayton McLane Jr. exceeded that price by a significant margin.

To his further credit, McLane has never made a more impassioned sales pitch in his life. The community also got in on the effort. Fans signed petitions and held Web site drives urging Beltran to return. There were dozens of fans milling around Minute Maid Park late Saturday night awaiting word on Beltran's decision.

Local civic and business leaders got involved in an effort. Teammates like Jeff Bagwell phoned Beltran. Roger Clemens agreed to arbitration, leaving the window open for his return while Beltran made up his mind.

"I can't say enough about the effort everyone put in to try and get this done," Purpura said. "It was a team effort on the part of a lot of people. There were too many issues. We just ran out of time."

It was a combined effort as everyone gave it their best shot. But in the end Beltran wouldn't take $100 million to play baseball in Houston. For him, it wasn't enough.

Blame greed if you like. Blame Boras or Beltran.

Just don't blame Purpura.

Jim Molony is a writer for MLB.com. This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.

[grekel]

I say shower him with non-stop booing and dollar bills which have first been wiped across everyone's Boras so that each has a little Beltran on it.

[candlegreen]

Originally posted by Lil Francis
We should all throw monopoly money at him and ask him if thats enough for is ungrateful sorry ass.

haha, that was pretty good. On Booing Beltran, I can't imagine anyone more angrier than me last night when the news came out that the Astros never really had much of a shot and that Beltran was shut out from us since late December. Seriously, if Beltran was indeed "kept prisoner" by his own agent, I would fire him like a bad habit. I know there are complications, but why would anyone want to play on a team that loses consistantly?

What does the Mets have to offer? A young infield and an aging... and I mean AGING future Hall-of-Fame pitcher? With the taxes and living expenses in NY, and the fans/media attention, he'll be lucky to post his average numbers sitting under that pressure. NY players are known to be relieved playing on the road when on a slump; is that the life that he wants?

Of course, there IS a possibility that he just wanted to go to a team other than the Mets whom are offering more money.... With that, I'll soften up my stance a little unless the team is ...the Cubs.. or Yankees.... I guess I'll end up booing him anyways.

But all in all, if what was said is true, and that the Astros was being played the way they have, that magical run in '04 would not be enough to keep me away from getting all my friends together, buying front row seats next to the 3rd base bench (spending money to show appreciation for McLane while wreaking havoc on the entire Mets team), and go from there. I just hope the Astros invest that money efficiently (Berkman, .. Oswalt, other potential FAs?)

[RocketManJosh]

I'm not going to be booing Carlos Beltran because he left. That's fine. I don't expect everyone who plays here to want or have to stay here.

It's the fact that he used us, and obviously lied straight through his teeth just to get more dollars from someone else. He screwed us by not allowing us to go after any contingencies.

**** Beltran ... He is on the hit list ... any by that I mean he deserves a ball thrown to his dome.

[Trader_Jorge]

The biggest gaffe in all of this has nothing to do with the size of Drayton's offer. Look, with the benefit of hindsight, we know that Drayton did not offer enough money. Period. With that said, we now see the biggest problem as being Drayton's anticipation that we *would* be the winning bidder. Every move we've made this offseason has been tailored around signing Beltran. We passed on Kent. We didn't give Miller his money. We haven't signed any other free agents. We basically cleared the decks in anticipation of signing Beltran. Was this wise? NO. When you are dealing with a Boras client, how can you expect to win the negotiation when you don't offer the most money? It was clear that the Mets were offering more money. It was all over the media. Drayton completed misread the situation and attempted to call Boras' bluff. It did not work. Boras is one of the best negotiators on this earth. He took Drayton to the cleaners on this one. Used and abused him.

My gripe is twofold: If you are going to clear the decks to sign a once in a decade superstar, then why would you not raise your final offer when it is clear that you aren't the lead horse? Secondly, why would you mortgage the farm on thinking you can win a negotiation with Scott Boras and have his client accept less money? These are two HUGE negotiating errors on the part of McLane. Huge.

I can't believe some of you guys are giving Drayton the benefit of the doubt. Every year we lose guys because Drayton won't pay. And every year we end up disappointed after the season is over. Drayton did not make a winning bid for Carlos Beltran. Period. He did not pay to play. And in so doing, he got PLAYED.

[isoman2kx]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
The biggest gaffe in all of this has nothing to do with the size of Drayton's offer. Look, with the benefit of hindsight, we know that Drayton did not offer enough money. Period. With that said, we now see the biggest problem as being Drayton's anticipation that we *would* be the winning bidder. Every move we've made this offseason has been tailored around signing Beltran. We passed on Kent. We didn't give Miller his money. We haven't signed any other free agents. We basically cleared the decks in anticipation of signing Beltran. Was this wise? NO. When you are dealing with a Boras client, how can you expect to win the negotiation when you don't offer the most money? It was clear that the Mets were offering more money. It was all over the media. Drayton completed misread the situation and attempted to call Boras' bluff. It did not work. Boras is one of the best negotiators on this earth. He took Drayton to the cleaners on this one. Used and abused him.

My gripe is twofold: If you are going to clear the decks to sign a once in a decade superstar, then why would you not raise your final offer when it is clear that you aren't the lead horse? Secondly, why would you mortgage the farm on thinking you can win a negotiation with Scott Boras and have his client accept less money? These are two HUGE negotiating errors on the part of McLane. Huge.

I can't believe some of you guys are giving Drayton the benefit of the doubt. Every year we lose guys because Drayton won't pay. And every year we end up disappointed after the season is over. Drayton did not make a winning bid for Carlos Beltran. Period. He did not pay to play. And in so doing, he got PLAYED.

lol


never cease to amaze me jorge.

105 mill should of been enough under any circumstances

give me a ****ing break

[Trader_Jorge]

Originally posted by isoman2kx

105 mill should of been enough under any circumstances

Not when you are

1. Dealing with a team willing to pay more

2. Dealing with a Boras client.

This is EXACTLY the mistake Drayton made. He assumed a Boras client would accept less money. He based all his off season moves on this flawed assumption. He got burned. Now we are left with nothing.

And by the way, when I type up a lengthy, well reasoned post, how about responding with a little substance next time, rookie.

[Groogrux]

The last good forum...

[Rockets10]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
The last good forum...

. . . just got derailed.

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
The last good forum...
says "**** the mets right in the goatass."

Go Stros.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by Buck Turgidson
says "**** the mets right in the goatass."

Go Stros.

You home?

[Buck Turgidson]

day after tomorrow. wodki will be poured.

[steddinotayto]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
Not when you are

1. Dealing with a team willing to pay more

2. Dealing with a Boras client.

This is EXACTLY the mistake Drayton made. He assumed a Boras client would accept less money. He based all his off season moves on this flawed assumption. He got burned. Now we are left with nothing.

And by the way, when I type up a lengthy, well reasoned post, how about responding with a little substance next time, rookie.

so what happens when the Mets up THEIR offer after we increase our offer? it'll just be another n everending story until the winning bidder/franchise basically mortgages any financial stability they once had.

i agree with you that the Astros were being foolish for not having a backup plan. If they had one, they could have used that as a bluff for Boras/Beltran (i.e. "if he dont' want to sign with us, fine. I have Delgado, Lowe, Ordonez on speed dial"). Play hardball. But expecting our owner to go the distance when the length of the distance is not even known is asking a bit much.

We know McLane "lowballed" with the 70 mil offer. But how can that be a lowball offer when it's right in line with the likes of Pujols, Guerrero, etc? Okay he got a spectacular postseason on his resume. We bump up our deal. It finally reached the vicinity of 100-105 mil. We didn't even try to match or even beat the Mets' 112 offer. But what if we did? It's a lose-lose situation. We lose in that we caved in and offered to beat it (say 113 mil). But would have have guaranteed Beltran signing with us? Knowing how Minaya is running the Mets right now, they would have upped their offer. Then what? We basically keep countering until Boras gets what he wants. And what if we DO sign Beltran at an astronomical price? Like 120 mil? How much financial leeway do the Astros have in terms of filling other holes and resigning their own, LOYAL, players? Berkman and Oswalt still have contracts to think about. We still need pitching depth.

McLane might have made a shrewd move by not beating the Mets offer but do you honestly think that Beltran is worth that kind of money? I dont' like it that we didn't go into battle with a contingency plan but there's no point in blaming the management now.

We basically 'hit' on 2 Kings on a table of Blackjack. We could have doubled down, but the jackpot was too much so we gambled. Stupid but we gambled.

[ChrisP]

Originally posted by Buck Turgidson
No possible way I'm ever going to boo the guy. He was the player singularly most responsible for the greatest playoff run in the history of the Astros. From the beginning, I said that if Beltran was running the negotiations there was a better than 50/50 shot that he stays in Houston; if Boras is calling the shots then there was virtually no chance.

Buck, I appreciate what you're saying. But, the agent works for the athlete, not the other way around. Anything Boras did was because Carlos wanted it that way. This is all his choosing and so he is the one to blame.

Boras is just doing his job -- he's a snake and he does it well. Carlos is the guy who could have been honest with the organization about his intentions. He could have respected the team that gave him the opportunity to shine in a contract year. He chose to be silent and let Boras do the dealing. We were used.

[Buck Turgidson]

I'm pissed, but I'm not aware that CB has said anything as to his motives.

And until he does, and since he repeatedly said that he dislikes the business side of baseball and will "leave that to my agent", I will not heap scorn on anyone. I will also not begrude anyone for seeking financial security for their entire extended, extended, grown up in tremendous poverty, famiily.

Sucks, but I don't think CB called the shots here.

I'd rather cheer for the guys wearing Astros uni's than boo anyone else, maybe that's just me.

[steddinotayto]

Originally posted by Buck Turgidson

Sucks, but I don't think CB called the shots here.



Beltran called the shots once he called Boras to hire him as his agent.

[THE ROX]

well for whtas its worth i hope he chokes in ny like the yankees did against boston.go stros delgado and a pither to go.please.

[Trader_Jorge]

I wonder how much Drayton would like a taste of his own medicine. Since I've lived in Houston for quite some time (certainly more than Beltran's 3 months), I'm going to offer the Astros 80% of the face value for season tickets. That seems about right. Hometown discount!

[isoman2kx]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
I wonder how much Drayton would like a taste of his own medicine. Since I've lived in Houston for quite some time (certainly more than Beltran's 3 months), I'm going to offer the Astros 80% of the face value for season tickets. That seems about right. Hometown discount!


lol you are a moron jorge

we offered him a damn good deal, there was no discount to it.

[rezdawg]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
I wonder how much Drayton would like a taste of his own medicine. Since I've lived in Houston for quite some time (certainly more than Beltran's 3 months), I'm going to offer the Astros 80% of the face value for season tickets. That seems about right. Hometown discount!

You are correct, if the Mets are offering Beltran 140 million.

[Rule0001]

my only gripe is that it was a beltran or else strategy

and now that that's gone under..... damn :\

[isoman2kx]

Originally posted by rezdawg
You are correct, if the Mets are offering Beltran 140 million.

well yeah if it was $140 mill but screw that if we would have to offer him that

thought espn just said it was $119 mill

[rezdawg]

Originally posted by isoman2kx
well yeah if it was $140 mill but screw that if we would have to offer him that

thought espn just said it was $119 mill

Exactly, thats why Jorgie Porgie has no clue what he is talking about.

[isoman2kx]

Originally posted by rezdawg
Exactly, thats why Jorgie Porgie has no clue what he is talking about.

ahh my fault

missed the humor :cool:

[Uprising]

Man, my hangover made me forget about this....until I logged onto my pc! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Damn you Beltran! You are so being booed by me, and I might just do that monopoly money thing. Sounds perfect for him. Screw him for making us wait this long. Damnit. Now what.....we are screwed. Delgado?

[rezdawg]

Originally posted by Uprising
Damnit. Now what.....we are screwed. Delgado?

Now...we have nothing. I wouldnt mind signing Magglio for a year, but Im not in the mood to deal with Boras again.

I liked that rumor regarding Soriano. At least its some sort of a consolation prize.

We have to do something though...this team is just not going to cut it.

[Uprising]

Originally posted by rezdawg
Now...we have nothing. I wouldnt mind signing Magglio for a year, but Im not in the mood to deal with Boras again.

I liked that rumor regarding Soriano. At least its some sort of a consolation prize.

We have to do something though...this team is just not going to cut it.

with the current lineup....we have no RBI's. Berkman....injured right now, and Baggy. Pretty much no one else. Damnit, I wish we still had Kent.

so this mean LANE is starting in the OF?

[isoman2kx]

Originally posted by rezdawg
Now...we have nothing. I wouldnt mind signing Magglio for a year, but Im not in the mood to deal with Boras again.

I liked that rumor regarding Soriano. At least its some sort of a consolation prize.

We have to do something though...this team is just not going to cut it.


or we could (and probably are barring the outcoming of this offseason) be in a 3-4 year rebuilding process :(

[rezdawg]

Originally posted by Uprising
with the current lineup....we have no RBI's. Berkman....injured right now, and Baggy. Pretty much no one else. Damnit, I wish we still had Kent.

so this mean LANE is starting in the OF?

C: Ausmus
1B: Bagwell
2B: Burke
SS: Everett
3B: Ensberg
OF: Berkman
OF: Biggio
OF: Lane

Imagine that lineup with Berkman out...

[Uprising]

Originally posted by rezdawg
C: Ausmus
1B: Bagwell
2B: Burke
SS: Everett
3B: Ensberg
OF: Berkman
OF: Biggio
OF: Lane

Imagine that lineup with Berkman out...

:( :( :(

[Raven Lunatic]

Originally posted by wakkoman

The fact is the Astros gave Beltran $100 million reasons to return. All of the talk about wanting to play for a winner and liking Houston and playing in warm weather were clearly nothing more than calculated posturing designed to get more money. At least Randy Johnson, after the Astros traded for him during the playoff drive of '98, made it clear to the organization he would not re-sign with them when the season was over.


This part of the article is KEY. Astros knew from the get go that they wouldn't able to, or at least not willing to, offer as much as the bigger market teams like Chicago or New York. If it was always about money, we could have looked elsewhere early and used that time to get better. Instead, we hear constant **** spewing from Beltran's lying mouth telling us he is about winning and how he likes the low-key aspect of Houston, etc etc. So the Astros hold out hope, keep in this until all the worthwhile FAs have signed elsewhere, and then we find out in the end that it was, and always was, about the money.

Boras played our ass like he has played every other team he deals with. I'll give the Yankees credit, they didn't fall into the trap this time. Randy Johnson let Astros management know early that he wanted a 4 year deal. The Astros would only offer a 3 year deal, so they didn't get teased and strung along for half their offseason. I'm not saying Beltran shouldn't be allowed to do this, it is indeed part of business. But these reasons are plenty for me to boo his ass until I can't boo anymore. That's part of baseball just as much as Boras's chick**** businessman tactics.

And as much as Beltran's playoff performance was amazing, and as much as it did for this team, it doesn't matter to me now. What he did for the team in half a season doesn't make up for what he has done now, which is to seriously hamper the team's ability to field a competitive team for ALL of 2005. Oh yes, his ass will get booed. He might as well be a ghostbuster for as much boos as he will be hearing. I'll see to that.

[Uprising]

I hope one of our pitcher's hits him with a pitch.

[rezdawg]

Originally posted by Uprising
I hope one of our pitcher's hits him with a pitch.

It doesnt even have to be a wild pitch. :D

[Uprising]

Originally posted by rezdawg
It doesnt even have to be a wild pitch. :D

Man, that would so make my day though if I was at the game. The place would erupt!

man.....I really hate you Beltran.

[MykTek]

i don't blame Beltran....from the half season we had him, he seemed like he didn't care how much he got....he wanted the best for his family.... i think the person to blame is Boras....he knew the astros had a deadline and tried to get other teams into the mix to jack up the price.....

[rezdawg]

Originally posted by MykTek
i don't blame Beltran....from the half season we had him, he seemed like he didn't care how much he got....he wanted the best for his family....

Then he would have signed with Houston. His agent didnt put a gun to his head...if Carlos wanted Houston, he could have had Houston.

[rocks_fan]

A question TJ. How is Houston supposed to put in a winning bid when every time Drayton or Tim puts in an offer Boras goes to one of the NY teams and goes "Well here's Houston's bid. Can you go a couple million more?" If the Astros had put their best offer out first, that would've been trumped real quick leaving them nowhere to go. The fact remains that both NY teams can afford to outspend Houston and every other team in baseball not named the Dodgers.

So, Houston had to play the "Houston loves you and you'd be the man here" card. But Boras wouldn't let that happen. Omar Minaya was allowed free access to Beltran in Puerto Rico to sell him on playing for the Mets. The Astros haven't been allowed to talk to Carlos since December 22nd. Sure they could've ignored Boars and visited Beltran anyway, but you could pretty much kiss any chance of talking to Boras goodbye.

I blame Beltran for hiring Boras in the first place and for apparently being a huge hypocrite (or liar, one of the two). I blame Boras for being a gigantic tool and a pariah that could very well kill professional baseball. I don't blame Drayton and Tim for doing everything they could and offering more money than they'd ever offered ANYONE before.

[Baqui99]

In the end, it all boils down to Beltran. If he wanted to be an Astro, he could have made it happen. We put it all on the table, and instead he decided to play for one of the most mismanaged franchises in pro sports, the Mets. F*ck him.

I will boo him mercilessly for the way he cockteased the Astros management. We were set to make him the richest player in franchise history, and he leaves for a few extra bucks. And I too hope that he gets hit on the wrist with a Brad Lidge fastball, ending his season.

[Trader_Jorge]

If you clear the decks to sign a free agent, be prepared to pay up. If you aren't going to pay up, then don't clear the decks. Houston cleared the decks by dumping Kent and Miller and by not signing anyone else. After doing that, Drayton gets cold feet at the end of a negotiation over $11mm and a no trade clause? Inexcusable. Really it is. How can anyone think otherwise?

Forget about the tax angle. Any tax advantage of being in Houston is wiped out by the endorsement opportunity in New York. NY has a huge Puerto Rican population. Beltran will be their posterboy.

This all boils down to money. Drayton wouldn't spend it. What else is new?

[candlegreen]

The offer was estimated to about $105 mil over 7 seasons. He's willing to put $105 million dollars for a player in a team where the sports icons are making less. This would by far, be the highest amount ever paid by the Astros. It's ridiculous that anyone can say that he's being tight with his wallet. Even if he HAS the money, no one should have the right to tell him how he should spend it, much less a number in the 9 digits.

[kaleidosky]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
If you clear the decks to sign a free agent, be prepared to pay up. If you aren't going to pay up, then don't clear the decks. Houston cleared the decks by dumping Kent and Miller and by not signing anyone else. After doing that, Drayton gets cold feet at the end of a negotiation over $11mm and a no trade clause? Inexcusable. Really it is. How can anyone think otherwise?

Forget about the tax angle. Any tax advantage of being in Houston is wiped out by the endorsement opportunity in New York. NY has a huge Puerto Rican population. Beltran will be their posterboy.

This all boils down to money. Drayton wouldn't spend it. What else is new?

haha, sorry, you can't really make an argument with stupid people...cause they'll come back with the same arguments.

If Drayton offered 112 and the Mets gave him 119 and won...he's still "not spending it". Same if he offered 180 mil and the Mets gave him 200, right?

Somehow, it's never enough. He went way above and beyond anything this club and city has ever seen, which is all we could have asked for and more. I would have been unhappy if he didn't reach 15 mil per season. Drayton shelled out 17 mil. And 7 years.

He didn't get cold feet over anything. Stop spinning it. He refused to give in to a demand that he couldn't meet.

They didn't "dump" Kent and Miller. Kent was offered a good contract, and someone overpaid for him. I'm fine not having Kent back with a viable young option in Burke in the wings...if Kent would come back for a decent amt that we offered, then great.

Miller? There is a consensus among all experts that Miller is a great risk for big-market teams, and something small-market teams couldn't afford. The guy has a 50/50 shot at being back to his usual self. He would have cost us more than the 1.5 he got from Boston due to arbitration. Not worth it for us especially...and even the 1.5 is only a good deal if you can risk that. Which Boston (and the Yanks and the like) can

[halfbreed]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
If you clear the decks to sign a free agent, be prepared to pay up. If you aren't going to pay up, then don't clear the decks. Houston cleared the decks by dumping Kent and Miller and by not signing anyone else. After doing that, Drayton gets cold feet at the end of a negotiation over $11mm and a no trade clause? Inexcusable. Really it is. How can anyone think otherwise?

Forget about the tax angle. Any tax advantage of being in Houston is wiped out by the endorsement opportunity in New York. NY has a huge Puerto Rican population. Beltran will be their posterboy.

This all boils down to money. Drayton wouldn't spend it. What else is new?

Ladies and Gents...I give you...someone who has absolutely no clue!!

No trade clauses are trash. ANYONE can be traded. And if we offered any more money, Boras and Beltran should have worn skimasks. He wasn't worth the amount the Mets paid. They can afford to overpay because they're NY. We can't.

[candlegreen]

Also, the Astros was tagged along throughout this entire off-season. Beltran expresses interest and the Astros did what is necessary to give the Astros a fighting chance. The other FAs available might give the Astros a chance to compete, but not as a favorite to possibly win it all with a team that has aging stars. The Astros, giving what was in the FA pool, have to look to sign Beltran or work on "rebuilding" towards the future.

Having that Beltran says his part in how he loves the city, and wanting to play for a winning team; all in addition to how many major sports analyzers gave the Astros a fighting chance to land Beltran, I don't think the Astros could go any other direction.

At any rate, it's over with now. Beltran should and prolly did make the final decision. It's to go to a mediocre team for more money. Living costs and taxes will eat up a good sum of that extra $14 million and he will be watched and pressured every second of his MLB seasons. When he gets in a slump, the Mets fans will boo him to no end because that's how the reputation is of NY fans. If he struggles, the Mets will be stuck with a contract that would be hard to get rid of (although I doubt that will happen). At any rate, I don't blame the Astros in a thing that they have done since the off-season.

[dEVIL]

he should use all that money to get his mole removed
or im gonna remind him of it when he gets here

[Trader_Jorge]

Guys, you just can't use the "upward spiraling salaries" argument in this case. Drayton should have been aware that the negotiation would have taken this form. It is after all, Boras we are talking about. Instead of acknowledging that the negotiation would take shape like it did, Drayton anticipated being able to sign Beltran for a slight hometown discount. This was the mistake. The anticipation of signing a Boras client for less money. This anticipation led to dumping Kent and Miller. It also led to us passing on all other quality free agents.

If you are going to play Boras' game -- and Drayton apparently committed to do so by 'clearing the decks' this offseason -- then you can't complain about salaries spiralling out of control. Drayton should have been aware of this before the game even began. He wasn't, and as a result, he got taken to the cleaners by the best in the business -- Boras.

The mistake here was estimating the demand for Beltran and estimating Boras' negotiating skills. Drayton UNDERESTIMATED both and as a result got screwed like a tied goat.

[Raven Lunatic]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
Guys, you just can't use the "upward spiraling salaries" argument in this case. Drayton should have been aware that the negotiation would have taken this form. It is after all, Boras we are talking about. Instead of acknowledging that the negotiation would take shape like it did, Drayton anticipated being able to sign Beltran for a slight hometown discount. This was the mistake. The anticipation of signing a Boras client for less money. This anticipation led to dumping Kent and Miller. It also led to us passing on all other quality free agents.

If you are going to play Boras' game -- and Drayton apparently committed to do so by 'clearing the decks' this offseason -- then you can't complain about salaries spiralling out of control. Drayton should have been aware of this before the game even began. He wasn't, and as a result, he got taken to the cleaners by the best in the business -- Boras.

The mistake here was estimating the demand for Beltran and estimating Boras' negotiating skills. Drayton UNDERESTIMATED both and as a result got screwed like a tied goat.

Well, I think the mistake was less underestimating Boras' negotiating skills and more trusting Beltran too much and underestimating Boras' ability to get his client to ignore everything but the money. Everything Beltran said publicly gave the impression that the Astros wouldn't necessarily have to have the highest offer to be the winning bidder. That was apparently bull****, because everything else, outside of the money, that Carlos said he valued was something Houston could boast that New York either couldn't, or couldn't to any degree higher than Houston. It was all the money. We got played by Beltran as much as Boras.

[rezdawg]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
Drayton.....got screwed like a tied goat.

Exactly. Those bastards screwed Drayton, Purpura, the Astros, and the fans of Houston.

[Hottoddie]

Originally posted by weakfromtoday
I think complete silence might be a better option. He gets called up to bat and MMP goes completely silent.

Now, this would get more national attention than all the booing in the world.

Imagine, every time Beltran comes up to bat, the fans all stand up, turn their backs to the field, & remain silent throughout his at bat.

The message would be loud & clear, "You turned your back on us after we opened our hearts to you."

[rezdawg]

Originally posted by Hottoddie
Imagine, every time Beltran comes up to bat, the fans all stand up, turn their backs to the field, & remain silent throughout his at bat.


Then Beltran hits a foul ball and some unlucky bastard gets clocked in the back of the head.

[The Real Shady]

Originally posted by Hottoddie
Now, this would get more national attention than all the booing in the world.

Imagine, every time Beltran comes up to bat, the fans all stand up, turn their backs to the field, & remain silent throughout his at bat.

The message would be loud & clear, "You turned your back on us after we opened our hearts to you."

That would be pretty cool to do. I would worry though that he might hit a homerun and nail one of the turned around fans in the back of the head.

[moestavern19]

man **** Beltrash

[rocks_fan]

Well T_J I can see how you won "the andymoon Debate Challenge". Unfortunately just repeating the same point over and over isn't really a debate. The bottom line is Drayton and Tim offered what they thought (and was) fair market value for someone and they got beat out despite demonstrable evidence that Beltran may be costing himself money over the long run.

By the way, just because Carlos signs with the Mets doesn't automatically guarantee him some gigantic contract with Nike or Gatorade. Banking on endorsements to make up any cost of living differences is as speculative as putting all your money into the stock market.

And as to "clearing the decks", what would it look like if the Astros had offered a deal to Finley? It would look like they didn't really think they had a chance at Beltran and went looking somewhere else. Or what if Finley had agreed to a 2 year deal worth (for instance) $15 million, then Beltran turns around and says, "OK, 7 years $105 million works for me where's the contract?" What are they supposed to do, have 2 expensive CFs or tell him "Nope sorry, deal's off you were too slow." They had to wait for Beltran to make his decision and ended up getting nothing.

Lastly, wanting an aboslute no-trade clause is an iffy proposition at best. Having $15 million a year for 7 YEARS tied up in one player can hamstring a team who has a limited operating budget. The Astros had to have a way out in case Beltran didn't live up to his contract (in their opinion) and someone offered them an out. Alex Rodriguez got traded, Ken Griffey Jr. got traded, Mark McGwire got traded, Randy Johnson got traded TWICE. Why should Beltran be any different?

All in all, the Astros stuck to their guns, the Mets apparently caved, Beltran and Satan Boras got what they wanted, and we got screwed.

[ima_drummer2k]

Originally posted by Hottoddie
Now, this would get more national attention than all the booing in the world.

Imagine, every time Beltran comes up to bat, the fans all stand up, turn their backs to the field, & remain silent throughout his at bat.

The message would be loud & clear, "You turned your back on us after we opened our hearts to you."
Naw, I'd rather just throw beer on him.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
If you clear the decks to sign a free agent, be prepared to pay up. If you aren't going to pay up, then don't clear the decks. Houston cleared the decks by dumping Kent and Miller and by not signing anyone else. After doing that, Drayton gets cold feet at the end of a negotiation over $11mm and a no trade clause? Inexcusable. Really it is. How can anyone think otherwise?



ditto

ditto

ditto

He chose to go after ONE guy...he should have been prepared to pay over market value for him...there is nothing else that even comes into play here.

[Chance]

So I have this company that wants us to do a parody of a song currently on the Billboard charts. Frank and I decide to use American Idiot by Green Day and I write these reall witty lyrics about White trash America and I am super happy with it.

And then last night The REAL Killer Bees (Boras and Beltran) drop that bomb on us.

So this is what we came up with.

Beltran's an Idiot (http://www.apolloxviii.com/download/beltran/beltranclean.MP3)

Beltran turned out to be an idiot
After engineering Astros Mania
The he left us when we know he coulda stayed
He epitomizes greedy America

Chorus
Welcome to a new realization
All across the Astros Nation
Bleep him we will be okay
We'll dance with the ones that brung us
And curse the agent Scott Boras
It's enough to make you...

The whole city stayed up 'til eleven
Thinkin' Carlos would bring us to Heaven
Instead he bent us over like a punk in prison
Without the courtesy of a reach-around.

Chorus
+HURL!

Beltran turned out to be an idiot
To win without that Judas will be a little sweeter
Only one killer Bee committed treason
Clemens come back for one more season

Welcome to my vision of elation
It's a brand new Astros Nation
Don't worry everything's okay
The B's have been there from the beginning
They always find a way to come up winning
Scott Boras is the anti.....Christ!

Download it and spread it. I figure it has a shelf life of a week, tops! Send it to your Astros fan friends. Let them know Apollo XVIII did it.

[isoman2kx]

*applauds*


will download and save for sure :D

[Miguel]

Ah ah, ee ee, tookie tookie indeed.

I've commenced the spreadination

[Miguel]

I've had a complaint already Chance.

"needs more cowbell"

[Chance]

Originally posted by Miguel
Ah ah, ee ee, tookie tookie indeed.

I've commenced the spreadination

I apprecialize your inspreadification of our work. Frank is playing all the instruments. We did it in 3 hours. That rules.

[EddieWasSnubbed]

Brilliant Chance! I'm sending it to a couple friends now.



By the way, I was in Magnolia from December 20th to the 31st...I should have said something about it. I stayed with my dad off of Honea-Egypt(If you still remember me).

[Rocket Fan]

:D Thats' pretty darn impressive that you put that together so quickly!

[mogrod]

Classic! Great Job!

[ima_drummer2k]

OK, I'm starting to feel better. Thanks Chance!

[bigtexxx]

Outstanding in all ways. The prison rape references could not have been more appropriate.

[FranchiseBoi86]

Wow, that was awesome!

[LonghornFan]

As the jungle midget would say.....RACK IT!

[Creepy Crawl]

Thats really cool man . I will be spreading it to all the pi**ed off people I know . :D :cool:

[rocks_fan]

Better than the "real" song.

[Supermac34]

Sweet. You going to air that on 610?

[sums41]

i'm not mad he signed with another team, im mad he didn't sign earlier and put the Astros in the situation they're in. I loved last October and the run the Astros had, but i don't think it can make up for the position he has put the Astros in with all the good free agents gone this "offseason".

[CHAD444]

im mad that he didn't give us indication that he was going elsewhere.....i live in arizona and thank god for him the mets don't have spring training in az or believe me he would here it......i live right next to a spring training site and ive met him a few times and he seemed like a good guy ...but boras messed him up and he's like the rest....may he be with the mets for 3 years of losing then waive his no trade clause to go to a contender again...................not the mets....they will never contend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RocketManJosh]

Thanks Chance ... That's going to help me get over this torture

[rocketlaunch]

hahaha great job chance

[rezdawg]

solid.

[Stack24]

I caught it on 610 on my way home tonight.

Basically this how it goes.

" Honestly i am very dissapointed, the signing of Beltran would be a big thing for this orginization. He would have been the poster child of this franchise for years to come. To have a chance of getting a player like he is, is rare."

Then it went on talking about Purpura addressed the media and said his next goal is to fill the voids in the outfield, bullpen, and starting pitching through free agents and trades to come.

Nice to see Bags didn't mind having Beltran be the poster child of this team and passing on the handle of the team if Beltran had signed. Oh well move on from it.

[Chance]

Originally posted by Supermac34
Sweet. You going to air that on 610?

yeah. after the kiddies get to school.

thanks for the comments guys!!!

Chance

[Preston27]

That's awesome Chance.

[TheRaven]

IF Beltran planned to stay here, he would have signed in December... IF he was calling the shots.
Lots of ifs... for the Astros. All the while Boras/Beltran knew he wasn't coming back.
I can hear Boras now, like Tim Matheson in Animal House:
"Face it. You f**ked up. You trusted us!"

[kaleidosky]

nice

[MoBalls]

too funny...

[DanHiggsBeard]

observational
impersonations
females
song parodies


in that order.

[Chance]

Originally posted by DanHiggsBeard
observational
impersonations
females
song parodies


in that order.

You are wrong.

Fart jokes.
Fat people falling down.
Degredation.
song Parodies.

[DanHiggsBeard]

ha, at least you can roll with it.

I just really dislike song parodies or singing comedians.

The majority seems to enjoy it though, so keep it up.

[DanHiggsBeard]

oh, and I was wondering if you listen to the band Self.

A lot of your parodies and even originals I've heard have a similar sound to them.

[Chance]

Originally posted by DanHiggsBeard
oh, and I was wondering if you listen to the band Self.

A lot of your parodies and even originals I've heard have a similar sound to them.

No but I am ALWAYS wanting to hear new and interesting stuff. Do have an mp3 you could kick this way???

On singing comedians you really need to try out Stephen Lynch. He's hilarious and original.
clm

[DanHiggsBeard]

I guess I could make a mp3 when I get home. I think their best record is "Subliminal Plastic Motives". YOu can read a description and hear some bad sound samples at http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:idjp7ioog7or

If you give me the address I'll send a copy to the station.

[rrj_gamz]

This is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard...Don't Boo Beltran...Are you kidding me, 1st of all he lied about saying it wasn't about the money, 2nd, he had the ahole Boras as an agent, which, in the grand scheme of things, its not that much more money that in Houston given the lack of state and city taxes here in Houston Texas...

I'm booing my arse off every single time....

[DanHiggsBeard]

um, everyone goes for the money in every walk of life. Let me know next time one of you takes a job offering more money so I can come boo you at your workplace.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by DanHiggsBeard
um, everyone goes for the money in every walk of life. Let me know next time one of you takes a job offering more money so I can come boo you at your workplace.

what?? that's not true. people make work sacrifices all the time for other factors....for more vacation time...closer to family...women stay home with children...and on and on. there are a few guys on this board, SamFisher and TJ being a couple, who claim to have taken less to do a job they enjoy.

[DanHiggsBeard]

and these people are the exception rather than the rule.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by DanHiggsBeard
and these people are the exception rather than the rule.

it all depends...most people i know wouldn't uproot their families and move them unless the differene in money/lifestyle were hugely significant. my brother-in-law recently turned down a job in SF for that very reason...paid more, but wasn't much of a lifestyle change given relative dollars...and he says there's no way he'd move his kids away from the home and school they love. i think most people are like that.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by DanHiggsBeard
and these people are the exception rather than the rule.

There are still people who survived 9-11 who are taking lesser paying jobs when they get offers that they can live with (support their family etc) to get out of NYC.

[ChrisP]

Originally posted by DanHiggsBeard
um, everyone goes for the money in every walk of life. Let me know next time one of you takes a job offering more money so I can come boo you at your workplace.

Tell that to Karl Malone (signed for less in LA to win), or Barkley (signed for less so "#33 that ho" could come and help us win), or Cuttino (signed for less because he wanted to stay here).... just a couple of quick examples off the top of my head.

And these guys are making so much money that they can really afford to make such sacrifices without affecting their standard of living. Meanwhile, as Max points out, people in every walk of life make the same kinds of sacrifices in their job decisions. I'd take less for a job, for example, if it meant I could take more vacation.

[JBIIRockets]

Chance, this might be your best effort. I've been listening to it over and over again.

[Drewdog]

All of these debates of why...... I wanted to collectively get a poll of who you really think mucked up the deal to keep Carlos an Astro.

[NJRocket]

I blame Boras for Beltran ending up in NY.

I blame Drayton and the front office for the debacle that was created as a result of never having a plan B.

[Rocket G]

Whoever voted for Drayton & Purpurra is a mental retard.

[MadMax]

i don't know who to blame. it all depends on perspective. if you're willing to pay just whatever, then you blame the owner. if you think that boras' games are dirty pool, you blame him. if you think beltran was less than forthright, you blame him.

i do question the purpose of the deadline rule. why? what's the reason for that rule? he can negotiate with every other team after 1/8..but can't negotiate with the only other player in the sweepstakes? i dont understand the purpose of that.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rocket G
Whoever voted for Drayton & Purpurra is a mental retard.

it was me

[MadMax]

Originally posted by NJRocket
it was me

don't want to engage an argument..but how high would YOU have gone?? not that it matters because it's not your money...but would you have payed virtually anything?? given him an A-Rod deal...just to keep up with the Mets??

[Drewdog]

My view is.... If Carlos really wanted to be a Houston Astro, he would have told his agent to make it work. Agents work FOR the players......... not the other way around. If Carlos is idiotic enough to let his agent run the show and determine where he plays, then he isnt a REAL man.

Bottom line IMHO is Carlos said either the Mets all the way, or either choice is fine just as long as I make the most money.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by MadMax
i don't know who to blame. it all depends on perspective. if you're willing to pay just whatever, then you blame the owner. if you think that boras' games are dirty pool, you blame him. if you think beltran was less than forthright, you blame him.

i do question the purpose of the deadline rule. why? what's the reason for that rule? he can negotiate with every other team after 1/8..but can't negotiate with the only other player in the sweepstakes? i dont understand the purpose of that.


Max - the rule was put in place by the players union to prevent collusion by the owners.

[Drewdog]

Clearly when you sign Scott Borass as your agent, you are in the game for one thing and one thing only.........






$$$$$$$$$$MONEY$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by MadMax
don't want to engage an argument..but how high would YOU have gone?? not that it matters because it's not your money...but would you have payed virtually anything?? given him an A-Rod deal...just to keep up with the Mets??

I think he is worth about the same as Vlad and Pujols....that being said, I guess 15 a year for 6 or 7 yrs would sound about right......HOWEVER....If I went ino the negotiation not having a fall back plan, I'd be damn sure I came home with the pretty girl no matter what the cost...so, if I went into the fray the same way Drayton did, I would have made it very clear that I would top any offer so that Carlos made sure I got the last look.

[SamCassell]

Such a flawed question. Beltran operated in his own interests, Boras operated in his own interests. Neither of them (obviously) cared about preventing a "debacle" for the Astros, nor should they. But at the same time, I don't think the Astros offer was unreasonable. If anything, $108m was high. They took a risk on their offseason, put all their chips on the roulette wheel, bet on signing Beltran and let it ride.

[leroy420]

Originally posted by Drewdog
My view is.... If Carlos really wanted to be a Houston Astro, he would have told his agent to make it work. Agents work FOR the players......... not the other way around. If Carlos is idiotic enough to let his agent run the show and determine where he plays, then he isnt a REAL man.

Bottom line IMHO is Carlos said either the Mets all the way, or either choice is fine just as long as I make the most money.

Well, then Carlos isn't a real man. I think that both Carlos and Boras are at fault. I thought all along that Chicago was his favorite. If that was so, why didn't they give the Cubbies more time to enter the fray? Either way, it was about the money and it was not about winning.

Ultimately, I do believe that Boras was not giving Carlos the whole story. I'm sure that he was telling Carlos that the whole income tax thing was overblown. It was Carlos' fault for either believeing him or putting this blind faith into a man that no one likes and that has burned bridges with nearly every team in MLB.

[AntiSonic]

The rules. MLB needs a salary cap.

[Trader_Jorge]

I can not believe the people who are giving McLane a pass on this, especially given his history of being tight with money.

1) The Astros mortgaged everything to take a crack at Beltran. With this having been done (Kent, Miller, no other free agents), you'd better go above and beyond to make sure you get your man. Drayton balked at the last minute on $11mm and a no-trade clause. Pathetic.

2) There was no plan B. None. Look at the unmitigated disaster that has become of this offseason. We were 3 innings away from the World Series last year. Instead of doing what we could to improve, we have significantly gotten worse. Why does everyone give McLane a pass on the Kent situation? Answer: Because we are so accustomed to his stinginess that we are callous to it. On the heels of that disaster, we give Drayton another pass for bidding too low? Come on now. Someone's definition "market rate" is obviously out of whack.

3) Perhaps the biggest gaffe of them all: Drayton EXPECTED to win the negotiation with Boras for the rights to Beltran. Only a FOOL would expect this when the following things are in play:
-- Your bid is lower than another bidder
-- You have a rookie GM working on the case against the toughest agent in the game
-- You expect a hometown discount after 3 months of service
-- You aren't prepared to raise your bid when faced with competition
-- You are inflexible on the small details (like a no-trade clause)

The blame this offseason is on one man -- Drayton McLane. He had the chance of a lifetime to secure a cornerstone for the franchise. He pissed it all away by tightening up at the last minute over $11mm and a no-trade clause.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
I can not believe the people who are giving McLane a pass on this, especially given his history of being tight with money.

1) The Astros mortgaged everything to take a crack at Beltran. With this having been done (Kent, Miller, no other free agents), you'd better go above and beyond to make sure you get your man. Drayton balked at the last minute on $11mm and a no-trade clause. Pathetic.

2) There was no plan B. None. Look at the unmitigated disaster that has become of this offseason. We were 3 innings away from the World Series last year. Instead of doing what we could to improve, we have significantly gotten worse. Why does everyone give McLane a pass on the Kent situation? Answer: Because we are so accustomed to his stinginess that we are callous to it. On the heels of that disaster, we give Drayton another pass for bidding too low? Come on now. Someone's definition "market rate" is obviously out of whack.

3) Perhaps the biggest gaffe of them all: Drayton EXPECTED to win the negotiation with Boras for the rights to Beltran. Only a FOOL would expect this when the following things are in play:
-- Your bid is lower than another bidder
-- You have a rookie GM working on the case against the toughest agent in the game
-- You expect a hometown discount after 3 months of service
-- You aren't prepared to raise your bid when faced with competition
-- You are inflexible on the small details (like a no-trade clause)

The blame this offseason is on one man -- Drayton McLane. He had the chance of a lifetime to secure a cornerstone for the franchise. He pissed it all away by tightening up at the last minute over $11mm and a no-trade clause.

Thankfully someone else other than me gets it.

[bigboymumu]

Beltran is not worth his contract. We are better off.

[Trader_Jorge]

Originally posted by NJRocket
Thankfully someone else other than me gets it.

Yeah, it's amazing how many 'Stros fans are buying in to the immediate damage-control response put out by Astros.com and the Chronicle. Almost the instant Beltran said no to the Astros, there were articles up on those websites saying McLane and Purpura weren't to blame. What a joke. I'm seeing a lot of those articles being regurgitated by McLane apologists.

[Summer Song Giver]

Beltran should have been a KC lifer, therefore I will blame MLB for their broke ass system..

I'm ready to move on though let's see what else we can salvage from this offseason, personally I would try to sign as many decent number 3-4 type starters as possible and use them to fill the rotation and bullpen and maybe one aging bat who could still do it for one more year. It is imperative that we stay in a challenger mindset until Bags salary is off our "cap".

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Beltran is not worth his contract. We are better off.

so you are ok with taking a break from competitive baseball this year after getting within 9 outs of the WS?

[Groogrux]

The offseason is over?

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
The offseason is over?

I love the positive attitude but honestly....and im not being sarcastic here...who at this point can get us back to where we were last year?

[CAKoudelka]

Retard here

I think Drayton and Tim totally dropped the ball here. I agree with Trader here, if you are already gonna commit 100 mil to the guy, if you are ready to blow your offseason and possibly your entire year on one guy, you better make sure that no matter what happens, you win.

You dont tease the city with almost getting to the World Series and then take a dump on yourself saying something like, " We ran out of time ", I mean, anyone that buys that, I got some property and a few bridges for sale.

Its just always funny to me that we lose players, and then its always, always, always the players fault, Drayton never steps up to take the blame, its always a "smart business decision" How many players do you expect to give us home town discounts, I mean, they roll up with a 5 yr 75 mil offer, and think thats gonna do it, are you kidding me, thats disrespectful right there. The Mets came with 100 mil out the box.

Next thing you know, you have Tim and Drayton running their mouths, and both contradicting each other, Richard Justice is blasting Beltran publicly and the deadline hasnt gotten here yet. If thats not Tim and Draytons fault, then who ?

They dropped the ball, in my mind, there is no way you risk your season like this, and come up empty handed, which honestly, it looks like we will.

What I do realize is that in a few months, we could be surprised by the team thats on the field, they could possibly come together somehow and make some noise, but I also understand, we could be in the cellar, looking up all year, and honestly, if we are, its directly related to the actions of Drayton and Tim, and maybe moreso on Drayton

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by NJRocket
I love the positive attitude but honestly....and im not being sarcastic here...who at this point can get us back to where we were last year?

Soriano would be a decent start, not to mention there's still a chance that Clemens will come back (which I think he will if we make a trade for Soriano). If Clemens comes back, basically the only loss from the beginning of last season is Kent/Dotel. We've replaced Dotel already and Kent simply wasn't worth the money he got from the Dodgers, IMO. If you add Soriano and Clemens to the mix along with bolstering the bullpen, which you know they'll do anyway, then there's no reason to not count the Astros among the favorites in the Central.

[leroy420]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
I can not believe the people who are giving McLane a pass on this, especially given his history of being tight with money.

1) The Astros mortgaged everything to take a crack at Beltran. With this having been done (Kent, Miller, no other free agents), you'd better go above and beyond to make sure you get your man. Drayton balked at the last minute on $11mm and a no-trade clause. Pathetic.

2) There was no plan B. None. Look at the unmitigated disaster that has become of this offseason. We were 3 innings away from the World Series last year. Instead of doing what we could to improve, we have significantly gotten worse. Why does everyone give McLane a pass on the Kent situation? Answer: Because we are so accustomed to his stinginess that we are callous to it. On the heels of that disaster, we give Drayton another pass for bidding too low? Come on now. Someone's definition "market rate" is obviously out of whack.

3) Perhaps the biggest gaffe of them all: Drayton EXPECTED to win the negotiation with Boras for the rights to Beltran. Only a FOOL would expect this when the following things are in play:
-- Your bid is lower than another bidder
-- You have a rookie GM working on the case against the toughest agent in the game
-- You expect a hometown discount after 3 months of service
-- You aren't prepared to raise your bid when faced with competition
-- You are inflexible on the small details (like a no-trade clause)

The blame this offseason is on one man -- Drayton McLane. He had the chance of a lifetime to secure a cornerstone for the franchise. He pissed it all away by tightening up at the last minute over $11mm and a no-trade clause.

So, 7 yrs. and $105-108 million aren't enough for you. You would have also given him ANOTHER $11 million right off the top? That doesn't in any way sound silly to you? Where then would you come up with the money for Oswalt and Berkman, two career Astros that actually want to be in Houston?

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Soriano would be a decent start, not to mention there's still a chance that Clemens will come back (which I think he will if we make a trade for Soriano). If Clemens comes back, basically the only loss from the beginning of last season is Kent/Dotel. We've replaced Dotel already and Kent simply wasn't worth the money he got from the Dodgers, IMO. If you add Soriano and Clemens to the mix along with bolstering the bullpen, which you know they'll do anyway, then there's no reason to not count the Astros among the favorites in the Central.

I agree Soriano will help....and judging by stats, he is comparable to Beltran in most areas other than defense...I wonder what we will be willing to part with to get him. I'd love to think that "selling high" with Backe would make sense for us but i dont know

And I think you may be right about Clemens if we get Soriano.

[VesceySux]

I don't blame Boras. He did his job, and he did it well. :mad:

Beltran is to blame. At the end of the day, it's HIS life, HIS choice, and HIS agent choice.

[Trader_Jorge]

Originally posted by leroy420
So, 7 yrs. and $105-108 million aren't enough for you. You would have also given him ANOTHER $11 million right off the top? That doesn't in any way sound silly to you? Where then would you come up with the money for Oswalt and Berkman, two career Astros that actually want to be in Houston?

Fine, if you think the negotiation in unwinnable, then don't enter into it in the first place. When Drayton and Purpura entered into the negotiation, they mortgaged the farm to win it. It was their *flawed expectation* of being able to win the negotiated that destroyed our entire offseason. Why on earth Drayton thought he'd win when he KNEW that he didn't have the highest bid is beyond me. It really is. Especially when you are dealing with Boras -- a man with a reputation of selling to the highest bidder. If you mortgage the farm to win a negotiation, you'd better be prepared to do whatever it takes. If you aren't prepared to do whatever it takes -- and Drayton clearly wasn't -- then don't even bother. Salvage your offseason by acquiring cheaper talent. Drayton and Purpura got taken to the cleaners.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
Fine, if you think the negotiation in unwinnable, then don't enter into it in the first place. When Drayton and Purpura entered into the negotiation, they mortgaged the farm to win it. It was their *flawed expectation* of being able to win the negotiated that destroyed our entire offseason. Why on earth Drayton thought he'd win when he KNEW that he didn't have the highest bid is beyond me. It really is. Especially when you are dealing with Boras -- a man with a reputation of selling to the highest bidder. If you mortgage the farm to win a negotiation, you'd better be prepared to do whatever it takes. If you aren't prepared to do whatever it takes -- and Drayton clearly wasn't -- then don't even both. Salvage your offseason by acquiring cheaper talent. Drayton and Purpura got taken to the cleaners.

i think this is a fair point. they were enamored with beltran's assertions that it would be different with hiim...that he was really concerned about a winning organization and a warm-weather climate, etc. the astros bought into that, no doubt. maybe they were suckers for doing that.

the problem is...the backlash would have been hell if they hadn't pursued beltran. for every one fan that blames them now for this...there'd be 3 talking about how cheap drayton is for not pursuing beltran at all.

my take is that, at the end of the day, the offer was more than fair. i think the astros would have been overpaying beltran relative to other talent in the league if he had accepted their offer. teams that go into negotiations with no cap or limits on what they're offering a player get hosed. particularly with boras, who gets teams bidding against themselves.

[Trader_Jorge]

So you'd prefer a weaker team to fan backlash? :confused:

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
So you'd prefer a weaker team to fan backlash? :confused:

no..i don't. i'm simply saying the fan criticism now rings hollow with me if the same people would be bashing him for not going after beltran, in the first place

[Trader_Jorge]

Originally posted by MadMax
no..i don't. i'm simply saying the fan criticism now rings hollow with me if the same people would be bashing him for not going after beltran, in the first place

Why? Drayton is too cheap to sign Beltran today, just like he was too cheap to sign Beltran at the beginning of the offseason? What has changed??:confused:

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
Why? Drayton is too cheap to sign Beltran today, just like he was too cheap to sign Beltran at the beginning of the offseason? What has changed??:confused:

there's nothing cheap about a $105 million offer, TJ. there are 10 contracts like that in the history of the league. it's a fair offer. you don't overpay to match the other guy who overpays.

[Trader_Jorge]

Originally posted by MadMax
there's nothing cheap about a $105 million offer, TJ. there are 10 contracts like that in the history of the league. it's a fair offer. you don't overpay to match the other guy who overpays.

The offer was too cheap to sign Beltran. Oh, you say it wasn't? Then why is Beltran a Met? Oops.

[Mr. Clutch]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
The offer was too cheap to sign Beltran. Oh, you say it wasn't? Then why is Beltran a Met? Oops.

He's a Met because they overpaid to get him. And I doubt he even wanted to stay in Houston. Vlad Guerrero gets paid less then him and is a better player.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
The offer was too cheap to sign Beltran. Oh, you say it wasn't? Then why is Beltran a Met? Oops.

i said overpayed, didn't i?

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by NJRocket
so you are ok with taking a break from competitive baseball this year after getting within 9 outs of the WS?

Not at all. It's time to make some deals. Drayton better bring some players in. We need speed, we need relievers.... I say spend the money on numerous players.

I should of wrote the following:

If Drayton spends the money he saved on this deal on other players then he made a sound decision. (IMO) I do not and will not accept any excuses from him for not signing Beltran if he doesn't replace him!!!!

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Not at all. It's time to make some deals. Drayton better bring some players in. We need speed, we need relievers.... I say spend the money on numerous players.

I should of wrote the following:

If Drayton spends the money he saved on this deal on other players then he made a sound decision. (IMO) I do not and will not accept any excuses from him for not signing Beltran if he doesn't replace him!!!!

but who do you get, bigboy??? this offseason, i mean.

[NJRocket]

I think Soriano would be a nice start

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by MadMax
but who do you get, bigboy??? this offseason, i mean.

Teams are still trying to get rid of contracts. Ordonez is one year removed from an MVP caliber season. Soriano is out there... I bet the Brewers have players available...

[JPM0016]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Teams are still trying to get rid of contracts. Ordonez is one year removed from an MVP caliber season.

And he's also a Scott Boras client. Ordonez isn't happening

[swilkins]

I enjoyed this. Thanks.

Funny thing is that I have been listening to 610 since the early nineties and here for a few years and never connected you with the same guy they mention on 610. And quite frequently I might add. I tend to overlook the obvious on occasion.

Great job.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by JPM0016
And he's also a Scott Boras client. Ordonez isn't happening

I remember you guys discussing that in another thread. Why can't we get Ordonez?

[JPM0016]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
I remember you guys discussing that in another thread. Why can't we get Ordonez?

Do you really think that Drayton and co. would really want to negotiate with Boras again? Just a feeling, but i'd say no, absolutely not.

[rezdawg]

Originally posted by DanHiggsBeard
um, everyone goes for the money in every walk of life. Let me know next time one of you takes a job offering more money so I can come boo you at your workplace.

This is quite humorous.

Let me know the real difference between 105 million (in Texas) versus 119 million (in New York).

The contracts are almost identical. If he is willing to sacrifice being on a good team, living in a low key city, warm weather, etc... for only a couple million dollars when he already has a 9 digit salary, then he's got some serious issues. And if you dont see this, then you've got some serious issues as well.

Bottom line, Beltran used the Astros like a pawn. We were the tool and he got every penny out of another team because he made it seem like we were really an option.

[Bogey]

For those saying that once you put all your offseason into getting Beltran, you better get him, how high would you go to pay him?
As high as it takes is not a good answer. The Astros don't know what the Mets were offerring. They could have been bidding against themselves, which I think they were for a while. That's how you end up like the Rangers with an A-Rod type salary that you have to hope the Yankees or Redsox will eventually take off your hands.
The Astros gave it there best shot, but came up short b/c Beltran is all about the money.

[Trader_Jorge]

Originally posted by Bogey
For those saying that once you put all your offseason into getting Beltran, you better get him, how high would you go to pay him?

Oh, I don't know..... maybe include a no-trade clause. Which apparently is ALL IT WOULD HAVE TAKEN.

[rezdawg]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
Oh, I don't know..... maybe include a no-trade clause. Which apparently is ALL IT WOULD HAVE TAKEN.

If you actually believe that something so easy to "fix" was the real deal breaker, then youve got to go back and reevaluate everything you have posted....ever.

That point could have been hammered out in an hour. With weeks of contract negotiations, this was not the reason Beltran didnt land in Houston.

[Trader_Jorge]

Originally posted by rezdawg
If you actually believe that something so easy to "fix" was the real deal breaker, then youve got to go back and reevaluate everything you have posted....ever.

That point could have been hammered out in an hour. With weeks of contract negotiations, this was not the reason Beltran didnt land in Houston.

Beltran said it was the reason.

"This is a game where you've got to look at what's best for you and your family," Beltran said. "In Houston, we almost got to an agreement. They wanted to sign me for seven years but they didn't want to give me a no-trade clause. I'm not going to make a commitment for seven years knowing they don't have the same commitment to keep me for seven years."

http://www.nypost.com/sports/mets/37913.htm

Care to amend your last post, rezdawg? Ouch.

[BSW]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
Guys, you just can't use the "upward spiraling salaries" argument in this case. Drayton should have been aware that the negotiation would have taken this form. It is after all, Boras we are talking about. Instead of acknowledging that the negotiation would take shape like it did, Drayton anticipated being able to sign Beltran for a slight hometown discount. This was the mistake. The anticipation of signing a Boras client for less money. This anticipation led to dumping Kent and Miller. It also led to us passing on all other quality free agents.

If you are going to play Boras' game -- and Drayton apparently committed to do so by 'clearing the decks' this offseason -- then you can't complain about salaries spiralling out of control. Drayton should have been aware of this before the game even began. He wasn't, and as a result, he got taken to the cleaners by the best in the business -- Boras.

The mistake here was estimating the demand for Beltran and estimating Boras' negotiating skills. Drayton UNDERESTIMATED both and as a result got screwed like a tied goat.
Questions for you...

What was Pujols contract?
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6619

What was Vlads contract?
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=5737

Now why does a player of less caliber deserve more than those two?

When it comes to comparing them....those two are better players than Beltran ever has been or will be.

The only reason Beltran's contract got so high was for his performance in the playoffs.

Look at his stats.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6132

[BSW]

and....btw...I will be booing him everytime he comes to the plate.

Money hungry....well, I would say more...but it is not very nice.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by JPM0016
Do you really think that Drayton and co. would really want to negotiate with Boras again? Just a feeling, but i'd say no, absolutely not.

This is business. Boras didn't do anything wrong. He didn't pull a "Boozer". I don't think there is bad blood between the Astros and Boras.

[JPM0016]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
I don't think there is bad blood between the Astros and Boras.

I'm sure the Astros didn't mind being toyed with for nearly 4 months. I don't think you'll ever see the Astros talk with a Boras client again.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
This is business. Boras didn't do anything wrong. He didn't pull a "Boozer". I don't think there is bad blood between the Astros and Boras.

i bet there is. judging by purpura's comments and his tone during that press conference...i bet there is.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
Beltran said it was the reason.

"This is a game where you've got to look at what's best for you and your family," Beltran said. "In Houston, we almost got to an agreement. They wanted to sign me for seven years but they didn't want to give me a no-trade clause. I'm not going to make a commitment for seven years knowing they don't have the same commitment to keep me for seven years."

http://www.nypost.com/sports/mets/37913.htm

Care to amend your last post, rezdawg? Ouch.

but i thought you said it was because Drayton is cheap?? :confused:

[Trader_Jorge]

Originally posted by MadMax
but i thought you said it was because Drayton is cheap??

Oh, it most certainly does boil down to Drayton being cheap. Think about it for a moment: Why would Drayton refuse to budge on a seemingly trivial issue such as a no-trade clause? Hmm.. maybe because he wants to trade him in the future. There is no other reason. By signing Beltran to a $100mm deal, Drayton looks like he isn't cheap. However, Drayton's intentions were likely to pay 2-3 years of the contract, then trade him. This way, he appeases the fans who want Beltran back, but still doesn't have to shell out $100mm to the player.

Look, Max, you are always going to defend Drayton for whatever reason -- probably because of his Baylor ties. (btw -- How's Sloan working out for you guys? You can thank Drayton for that too.) If you can't recognize that Drayton choked in this negotiation, then I'm afraid your green and gold goggles are obstructing your view.

[Lynus302]

Chance, you've made this situation not quite as painful. Keep it up, man.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
Oh, it most certainly does boil down to Drayton being cheap. Think about it for a moment: Why would Drayton refuse to budge on a seemingly trivial issue such as a no-trade clause? Hmm.. maybe because he wants to trade him in the future. There is no other reason. By signing Beltran to a $100mm deal, Drayton looks like he isn't cheap. However, Drayton's intentions were likely to pay 2-3 years of the contract, then trade him. This way, he appeases the fans who want Beltran back, but still doesn't have to shell out $100mm to the player.

Look, Max, you are always going to defend Drayton for whatever reason -- probably because of his Baylor ties. (btw -- How's Sloan working out for you guys? You can thank Drayton for that too.) If you can't recognize that Drayton choked in this negotiation, then I'm afraid your green and gold goggles are obstructing your view.

among other things you're full of, you're full of assumptions. i have no ties to mclane. i'm not a big baylor booster...frankly, i find myself rooting for UT more than my alma mater in most things. i think the criticism of mclane is silly when i consider the history of this once-laughingstock franchise, though.

you're making assumptions about what happened in this deal, tj. that's fine...but there's nothing concrete about them. we don't know what the final holdup was. both sides make self-serving comments. the truth is somewhere in between.

i would have been pissed if the astros had not pursued beltran. they make a $100 million + offer. that was more than fair, given value around the league. one team reached down and overpaid, bidding against themselves at $17 million/year. i wouldn't match that, either. i said that last week...and the week before...and the week before that. i've been pretty consistent about that, and it has nothing to do with my years at baylor.

[superden]

boras knew from the get go that we didnt have that much money. everytime we had an offer he would call the yankees and ask them if they can offer more. sure, if this is the case and if it is all about the money, then let it be...i am booing him. i cheer for the astros not the player. beltran strung us all along and we offered him a contract that was basically the same. we gave him everything he wanted and i have NEVER EVER see the city of houston show SO MUCH LOVE to a player. end of convo, i am BOOING him.

[Uprising]

Chance, yall rule! Man...that's so awesome! :D

Where's Beltran Dirty?

[halfbreed]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
I can not believe the people who are giving McLane a pass on this, especially given his history of being tight with money.

1) The Astros mortgaged everything to take a crack at Beltran. With this having been done (Kent, Miller, no other free agents), you'd better go above and beyond to make sure you get your man. Drayton balked at the last minute on $11mm and a no-trade clause. Pathetic.

2) There was no plan B. None. Look at the unmitigated disaster that has become of this offseason. We were 3 innings away from the World Series last year. Instead of doing what we could to improve, we have significantly gotten worse. Why does everyone give McLane a pass on the Kent situation? Answer: Because we are so accustomed to his stinginess that we are callous to it. On the heels of that disaster, we give Drayton another pass for bidding too low? Come on now. Someone's definition "market rate" is obviously out of whack.

3) Perhaps the biggest gaffe of them all: Drayton EXPECTED to win the negotiation with Boras for the rights to Beltran. Only a FOOL would expect this when the following things are in play:
-- Your bid is lower than another bidder
-- You have a rookie GM working on the case against the toughest agent in the game
-- You expect a hometown discount after 3 months of service
-- You aren't prepared to raise your bid when faced with competition
-- You are inflexible on the small details (like a no-trade clause)

The blame this offseason is on one man -- Drayton McLane. He had the chance of a lifetime to secure a cornerstone for the franchise. He pissed it all away by tightening up at the last minute over $11mm and a no-trade clause.

1 - We didn't mortgage everything. Jeff Kent isn't worth 9 mil and Wade Miller is a toss up at best. Maybe you should watch a game before engaging in such discussions.

2 - There has been a plan B in place. Maybe you should read the news before engaging in such discussions.

3 - A no-trade clause is no small detail...Drayton wasn't expecting a hometown discount, you just dont want two 17 mil a year players on the roster...Drayton did raise his bid (once again know your stuff before speaking).

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by halfbreed
Wade Miller is a toss up at best. .


3 - A no-trade clause is no small detail :

Wade Miller at 1.5 million for this year is a steal

A no trade clause is a VERY small detail when its for a player of Beltran's caliber

[JPM0016]

Originally posted by NJRocket
Wade Miller at 1.5 million for this year is a steal


The Astros weren't allowed to negotiate a friendly deal like that either. Otherwise he'd still probably be an Astro.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by JPM0016
The Astros weren't allowed to negotiate a friendly deal like that. .

explain please

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by NJRocket
explain please

Had we gone to arbitration, there's a rule about how much his pay would've decreased from last year. I think the minimum we could've paid him was ~$2.75mil, and that's if the arbitrator sided with us.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Had we gone to arbitration, there's a rule about how much his pay would've decreased from last year. I think the minimum we could've paid him was ~$2.75mil, and that's if the arbitrator sided with us.

gotcha

[ima_drummer2k]

Getting rave reviews from all my coworkers, Chance.

[SamCassell]

How does that mesh with the idea that the Stros couldn't negotiate a deal similar to the Boston one? If Miller was willing to sign for $1.5 mil with Boston, don't you think he'd have been willing to accept a similar deal prior to arbitration with Houston? Unless there's something I'm missing.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by SamCassell
How does that mesh with the idea that the Stros couldn't negotiate a deal similar to the Boston one? If Miller was willing to sign for $1.5 mil with Boston, don't you think he'd have been willing to accept a similar deal prior to arbitration with Houston? Unless there's something I'm missing.

If you decline to offer arbitration, you can't sign that player until May 1, I believe.

[rrj_gamz]

Bor-fatass is to blame...he controlled the situation from start to finish...Beltran was just a puppet, and his "no-trade" bs is just proof of that...

[DVauthrin]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
If you decline to offer arbitration, you can't sign that player until May 1, I believe.

That's not true because Miller wasn't a free agent, he was just under his 6 years of club control but at the point where arbitration is used to determine a player's salary. However after the Astros let him go, he was free to sign a deal with any team. He chose the defending champions, not a big surprise since they were interested.

Sam, Miller wasn't going to do work out a deal like that before arbitration because his agent(assuming he has a brain) would advise him that arbitration would give him quite a bit more than a deal like that would, therefore hold off until after arbitration and you can choose your team essentially even if it is the Astros.

[SamCassell]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
If you decline to offer arbitration, you can't sign that player until May 1, I believe.
Are you sure about that? I thought I remembered the Astros had a long streak awhile back of avoiding arbitration with their players, including working out deals at the 11th hour to avoid going to the arbitor.

In fact, doing a little research, I know you're incorrect on the rules. Here's a quote from the MLB website:

Why couldn't the Dodgers sign Jose Lima to a multi-year deal?
-- Kyle B., Las Vegas.

As things turned out, nobody signed Lima to a multi-year deal. He wound up with a one-year deal for $2.5 million from Kansas City. If he had been willing to take that deal prior to the Dec. 20 deadline for salary arbitration, he'd probably still be a Dodger. But he thought he'd receive a multi-year offer, and the Dodgers were not willing to make that commitment. They could have offered Lima salary arbitration, which would have extended their window to continue negotiating with the pitcher. That would have allowed both sides to better define his value and possibly reach an agreement. But it also would have left the Dodgers somewhat exposed had Lima decided to accept arbitration.
But even if you'd been right, they could have made a Boston-type offer to Miller before the arbitration deadline - maybe even up to $1.7 mil or so, more than Boston ended up giving him. Maybe they did, I don't know, but it doesn't seem likely that Miller and his agent would reject such a deal and then sign with Boston immediately afterward.

[SamCassell]

Originally posted by DVauthrin
Sam, Miller wasn't going to do work out a deal like that before arbitration because his agent(assuming he has a brain) would advise him that arbitration would give him quite a bit more than a deal like that would, therefore hold off until after arbitration and you can choose your team essentially even if it is the Astros.
Look deeper. If Miller's agent rejects a deal because he knows arbitration will yield his client more, then he also knows that the Astros will refuse arbitration for the same reason. So the arbitration payday is never going to come. That said, why wouldn't Miller's agent negotiate with the Astros? The only scenario is if he miscalculated the market for Miller - but he signed quickly with Boston, he didn't really even test the market for long.

[JPM0016]

http://bbs2.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88672

Originally posted by edc
The Astros were not allowed to offer anything less than -20% from last year's contract. $3.4M - .68M = $2.72M

[Chance]

Thanks for all of the love guys, especially the ones that imply that it has made it easier to swallow. Frank gets mad props, too. HE's playing all the instruments. Fire off an email to frank@lemonenemy.com if you feel inclined, the dude rawks.

[halfbreed]

Am I the only one who's been singing the lyrics all day long?

[DVauthrin]

Originally posted by SamCassell
Look deeper. If Miller's agent rejects a deal because he knows arbitration will yield his client more, then he also knows that the Astros will refuse arbitration for the same reason. So the arbitration payday is never going to come. That said, why wouldn't Miller's agent negotiate with the Astros? The only scenario is if he miscalculated the market for Miller - but he signed quickly with Boston, he didn't really even test the market for long.

What i'm saying is the the odds were in Miller's favor all the way. If he doesn't get arbitration, yes he runs the risk no one signs him, but with his stuff and career numbers, no way that happens. If he does get arbitration, he makes 4-5 mil. And secondly, I forgot about the 20% rule that was brought up just now, which means instead of 1.5 mil like Boston, the Astros would have had to offer 2.72 up front, not counting any 2nd year.

I think the Astros decided he just wasn't going to be healthy and to cut their losses than gamble that he would be.

[SamCassell]

So don't offer arbitration - just nontender the guy and then make him an offer of $2 mil (or whatever) with incentives like Boston did.

If you think he wasn't worth what the Red Sox are going to pay him, say that. But the decision to decline arbitration didn't prevent the Stros from attempting to sign the guy.

[DVauthrin]

Originally posted by SamCassell
So don't offer arbitration - just nontender the guy and then make him an offer of $2 mil (or whatever) with incentives like Boston did.

If you think he wasn't worth what the Red Sox are going to pay him, say that. But the decision to decline arbitration didn't prevent the Stros from attempting to sign the guy.

I agree with you on this, but I'm just saying I'm not going to rip into the organization for letting him go as I can understand why. Now if they didn't even tender him a contact after refusing arbitration, then I would criticize them because they should have at least tried. However, this wasn't the first time Miller had arm trouble, and his mechanics are the reason why, so I understand the concern from Houston. Boston had less of those concerns because they had 5 starters already so anything Miller gives them is gravy.

[Uprising]

Originally posted by halfbreed
Am I the only one who's been singing the lyrics all day long?

Nope, I have listened to it like 10 times already.

And sang along last time I listened to it.

[HillBoy]

Originally posted by NJRocket
Thankfully someone else other than me gets it.
OK, consider this: In a way, Beltran's signing does make sense. On Dan Patrick's show last month, the Mets' GM, Omar Minaya spoke emotionally of how he would appeal to Beltran as "one Puerto Rican to another". Don't discount what may have happened when Minaya and Co. trekked down to Puerto Rico and played the "Rican" card. There are 3 million Puerto Ricans in NY which gives them a big leg up in terms of Puerto Rican culture when compared with Houston. Now add in the fact that they gave Boras everything he asked for and it comes as no surprise (to me) that Carlos is headed to Flushing.

Would he have been ideal as the face of the Astros? You betcha! Does it look strange that they will pay $17 million to an inferior player in Bagwell but not Beltran? Absolutely! But this is the nature of the beast: the Astros gave it their best shot and lost. In the long run, the best way to get good/great players is to grow them yourself and the Astros have shown that they can find and develop baseball talent.

The Astros did nothing wrong - that's just the way the free agent system works: it forces you to deliberately overpay for talent and allows for devious and unscrupulous agents to manipulate and distort the marketplace which is exactly what happened here.

[isoman2kx]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
Oh, I don't know..... maybe include a no-trade clause. Which apparently is ALL IT WOULD HAVE TAKEN.

i seriously doubt that was "ALL" that was holding it up


course we'll have to listen to your incessant bitching for the rest of the season

believe it'll be ignore list time in a while.

[rocketlaunch]

By RICHARD JUSTICE
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

What bothers Drayton McLane even now is that there were never any real negotiations.

Only in the final hour or so before Saturday's 11 p.m. deadline did he and Scott Boras have a serious give-and-take about Carlos Beltran.

McLane now wonders if Beltran ever intended to sign with the Astros. He wonders if he was used as leverage to get Beltran a deal elsewhere.

Boras emphatically denies this. He telephoned Monday to say the deal fell apart because McLane refused to give Beltran the same no-trade clause he had given Andy Pettitte.

"We'd agreed on all the economic issues," Boras said. "Drayton stepped up big-time."

McLane denies this.

These issues are important now only because the perception around the country is that the Astros blew their negotiations with Beltran.


McLane, Boras a lot alike
I'd promised myself not to type the words Carlos and Beltran until spring training. I promised I wouldn't mention Scott Boras or the phrase "$100 million," either.

Yet Boras called to say I'd gotten the story all wrong by portraying him as the money-hungry bad guy. He said it was a fairness issue.

One long chat led to a similar one with McLane, and what evolved was a fascinating case study of two bright, stubborn men who cajoled, threatened and bluffed one another for almost three months. They agreed they had come to admire one another, but they disagreed on virtually every detail.

When they were done with one another Saturday night, Beltran had a $119 million deal with the New York Mets, and the Astros had a depleted roster and a wasted offseason.


The no-trade issue
Let's begin with Saturday night's final moments.

Boras said he accepted McLane's final offer of $108 million over seven years. McLane said he never went higher than $105 million.

Boras said the two sides had agreed on a package of incentives. McLane said they never did.

Boras said it was the no-trade clause that ended negotiations. If true, McLane looks foolish.

McLane believes if he had agreed to the no-trade clause, there would have been another hurdle. He believes he was trying to hit a moving target.

Some teams have ironclad policies against no-trade clauses. But McLane gave one to Pettitte last year.

Or did he have one set of rules for Andy Pettitte and another for Carlos Beltran?

"Absolutely not," McLane said. "We didn't draw a line in the sand on that. We were prepared to negotiate. We weren't going to the mat over that."

McLane acknowledged he had offered only a partial no-trade clause, but he emphasized there were a host of other unresolved issues. He considered all of them negotiable.

He said the real problem was that the two sides didn't really begin negotiating until the deadline was closing in. He said he tried to draw Boras into serious discussions several times but was always put off.

Several weeks ago, Boras told the Astros they were no longer in contention for Beltran. He said they had failed to reach the seven-year, $112 million threshold that would have gotten them to the next level of bidding.

Boras told McLane at least five teams had reached the magical $112 million mark. McLane's five-year, $75 million offer didn't come close.

"I told Scott we weren't prepared to go past that," McLane recalled.

He suggested the two sides release a joint statement announcing Beltran would be playing elsewhere next season.

Boras didn't seem eager to announce the Astros were out of the running. Around then, McLane began to doubt Boras had as many bidders as he said.

In the end, Boras apparently found just one team willing to meet his asking price — the Mets. Now Boras and the Astros are spinning their stories like crazy.

"The thing that was disappointing is that we never really had any negotiations until Saturday night," McLane said. "We tried. We offered to fly to Puerto Rico. We've negotiated five contracts with Craig Biggio and four with Jeff Bagwell. Every time we did it with the player in the room. I thought if we could all sit down, Carlos included, we could get a deal done."

McLane believed serious negotiations would begin Friday morning, when he had been instructed to telephone Boras. Instead, he was told they had nothing to talk about.

McLane had increased his offer to $100 million over seven years at that point. Boras told him he wasn't close but that there might be time to salvage something.

"I told him, 'Scott, we're running out of time,' " McLane said. "He said he was in intense negotiations with several teams who'd met his threshold."

When McLane and Boras spoke at 8:30 a.m. Saturday, there was more of the same.

Finally, about 90 minutes before the deadline and almost three months after Beltran became a free agent, Boras and McLane began to negotiate.

Boras said they agreed on everything except the no-trade clause. McLane said they never agreed on almost anything.

Finally, Boras telephoned McLane a few minutes before 11 and told him Beltran would be playing elsewhere next season.

"If we'd had more time, we might have resolved things," McLane said, "but we waited too long to get started. That must have been the plan all along."

richard.justice@chron.com

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/2987123

[bigboymumu]

I guess you guys are right. Maybe the Astros and Boras wont be doing any business any time soon.

[Nick]

good article... points out some vivid details (which we don't know if they are true... but I'll believe Justice before Boras... I can't believe I just said that)...

Notice one name that is conspiculously absent in terms of their "true feelings" on the dealing that went down.... Carlos Beltran. Boras kept him at a good distance away from the Astros because McLane would have been able to see in Carlos' own eyes that he really didn't want to come here next year, and thus Boras would not have competition for his big market team.

Now, when you think about his wife's comments on how each family member wants a different team... its probably just saying that she liked the Astros, and he was looking elsewhere. Also, you can't downplay the Puerto Rican angle... its huge.

Just looking at it from Carlos' standpoint... perhaps he could have become a champion in Houston, but he might be thinking he has a better chance to become a "legend" in NYC.

[wrath_of_khan]

I can't believe they turned down the Stros' offer to head down to Puerto Rico and then had a big love-fest with the Mets down there. That's cold. the writing was on the wall at that point.

[coma]

Originally posted by Nick
Just looking at it from Carlos' standpoint... perhaps he could have become a champion in Houston, but he might be thinking he has a better chance to become a "legend" in NYC.

Excellent point. Around the country, we're still seen as a bunch of rednecks.

Carlos: Do I play and get adored by a bunch of rednecks, or do I play and get championed by my own people.

[DaDakota]

I believe Drayton over Boras.

Boras played the Astros to get the Mets deal, BUT, and this is a big BUT....Beltran had the final say.

DD

[SamCassell]

I think both are liars and masters of spin, and I wouldn't trust either of their versions of what happened. Drayton lost credibility with his annual complaints about how much money the Astros were losing, even after they moved into the new stadium.

[xiki]

Originally posted by DaDakota
I believe Drayton over Boras.

Boras played the Astros to get the Mets deal, BUT, and this is a big BUT....Beltran had the final say.

DD

I, too, believe DMc over S(o)B...but, did CB sell his soul to Boros on the decision?

[MadMax]

i believe virtually anyone over boras. i won't accept everything drayton says as true...but if you asked me to lean one way or the other, i'd lean against boras. boras uses the media every year to exaggerate claims for bargaining position. that's his very nature.

[pugsly8422]

The thing that keeps killing me, and this is only my opinion, is:

If we were never in the running then Boras & Beltran practically ruined our 2005 season with what they did. I'm sure neither of them cares at all about that fact. Had they told us we weren't in it we could've signed other players, but since they used us to simply drive up the price we had all our eggs in one basket and since we lost out we REALLY lost out.

They just don't care that our season is down the drain. If you put our team in numbers on a scale from 1-10....

If we had signed Beltran 9/10
If we had signed others instead 7/10
Since we got neither 4/10 (that's being generous)

They destroyed us and didn't care. As much as I want to blame Boras for this, he was doing his job. Yes I hate him almost as much as Karla, but I think a majority of the blame goes to Beltran. He cared more about getting a few extra dollars than he did about destroying an entire cities baseball season.

Pugs

[Nick]

In hindisight, the Astros should have walked away when Boras told them "they were out of the running since 5 teams have met his goal of $117 million", or they should have just come out and blasted him for that not being true.

Every media outlet picked up on Scott's 5 team ploy, yet none of them really made much of it... saying, "but the only two confirmed offers were from the Astros and Mets, and neither of them appears to be near that threshold."

The Stros (or the Chronicle) had the perfect opportunity to say that "Scott Boras is full of s***, and we'll refuse to be used." Somehow force Boras into proving otherwise, whether it be a good faith negotiation WELL BEFORE the deadline, or them flat-out saying that they really were not interested.

What I do believe:
1. There was never any good-faith negotiations... there was Drayton calling Scott giving him one offer, and then Scott getting back to him saying "We'll get back to you, but you're still in it." That was basically the "negotiations" from the end of the winter meetings till Saturday. An unacceptable practice for both sides. Honestly... teams should employ ex-CIA agents who are human lie-detectors (Jack Burns) to guage whether or not agents/players are being serious when they say certain things.

2. Scott reassured the Astros that they had a shot in this deal to a point that they didn't feel they had to consider any other deals... by not getting into serious negotiations (where you can truly judge one's character) untill the 11th hour, you can do that. Once again, unacceptable way of practicing for both sides... although I believe the Astros really didn't have anybody else in mind that they would have been willing to throw decent money at:

1. Adrian Beltre --- has Hidalgo's one-hit wonder written all over him. Besides, we would have only gone after an OF.

2. JD Drew -- Once again... had been unhealthy his entire career, but finally had one good year (in his FA year, no less).

3. Steve Finley -- At the price he ended up getting, no. He wouldn't have led us to the WS, and he's too old to help build the team around. He's perfect for Anaheim, who would have been contenders with or without him.

[NJRocket]

You know...another thing that irks me is why the hell didn't anyone get on a frickin plane and go to Puerto Rico??? You say we weren't invited......I say, TAKE THE DAMN HINT RIGHT THERE! Carlos couldn't wait for the Mets and their cast of PR's to get down there...a trip that seems as though it may have sealed the deal at this point.

When we weren't invited, it should have been at least a red flag to Drayton and Purpura that perhaps they weren't all that interested in us.

You may say that it wasn't a big deal at the time...ok..here's another...Carlos got on a damn plane and went with Boras to the Yankee office in Tampa. You think he would have gone out of his way to meet with ...say...the Reds? How bout the Pirates? No? Yeah I agree....well how about the friggin Astros?????? Hey Drayton and Tim...ever think that maybe...just maybe you could have picked up the damn phone and arranged a meeting in Florida with Carlos? Oh, we weren't invited to do that either I take it.

How on God's green earth could Drayton and Tim possibly think that we had a very good chance at this??? HOW???? Drayton pissed away the last month in China and everywhere else but in a face to face meeting with Boras and Carlos..and Purpura? Well God for bid he puts down a damn cheeseburger long enough to realize that he isn't cut out for this job.

This is a disgrace.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by NJRocket
You know...another thing that irks me is why the hell didn't anyone get on a frickin plane and go to Puerto Rico??? You say we weren't invited......I say, TAKE THE DAMN HINT RIGHT THERE! Carlos couldn't wait for the Mets and their cast of PR's to get down there...a trip that seems as though it may have sealed the deal at this point.

When we weren't invited, it should have been at least a red flag to Drayton and Purpura that perhaps they weren't all that interested in us.
.

Your last point is a good one....but your first one isn't. All negotiations were to go throught the agent. You can't just show up and talk to the guy without his agent present.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by MadMax
Your last point is a good one....but your first one isn't. All negotiations were to go throught the agent. You can't just show up and talk to the guy without his agent present.

But we we never even invited to go down. It seemed like 5 minutes after you heard the Mets were interested, Minaya was on a plane to meet with Carlos. I don't know whether or not Minaya had Boras present at the meeting in PR, but if he didn't, it should have been another red flag that we were playing by different rules. If Boras WAS present, that should have been a red flag as well that we didn;t get that opportunity to meet in person.

Again, while it may be 20/20 hindsight for me, joe season ticket holder, it should have been overwhelmingly obvious to Drayton and Tim since this is what they do for a living.

[Nick]

NJRocket.... Carlos and Boras did meet with the Astros right after they met with the Yankees.... in their offices in Kissimee.

Also, when an agent is supposedly telling you, "don't worry about it... you guys are still in it," the Astros believed him. They had their doubts when they weren't invited to Puerto Rico (even though they offered), but Boras' constant reasurring was what skewed them.

Of course, hindsight is 20/20, and it basically says the Astros should have never believed anything Boras said... but we can't fault them now. I know I would have been pissed if the Astros had just walked away, when their only competition was the awful Mets.

Remember, at the time we all beleived that Carlos wanted to go to a winner... didn't like the big market... his wife preferred Houston... and Boras had said they were "still in it".... NONE of those sentiments changed (amongst us fans) till they finally signed elsewhere. Now, its preposterous to think how skewed we ALL were by Beltran/Boras' leaks to the media.

[CAKoudelka]

Man, Drayton got played for a fool. I mean, when Boras told us we were out, then we should have moved on. If Drayton really had no intentions of going over 5 yrs 75 million, as he told Boras, then we should have just stepped down. Drayton ate from Boras' hand.

Instead its the same ol Drayton, same ol damage control. I hate to say it, but, Drayton knew what he was getting into, and he tried to low ball Boras, and it back fired. If you really think Beltran isnt worth 100 mill, then you need to dust off that DVR and watch the playoffs one more time.

I cant say this enough, but, if you arent ready to go above 5yr 75 mill, and Boras tells you, thats not enough, then you move on, but if you are gonna go ahead and offer the 100 mil, make sure you get your man. Dont tell us you ran out of time, thats weak, you knew weeks ago you were out, THE MAN ADMITTED IT, Drayton said he knew weeks ago we were out. if this doesnt lay full blame on Drayton, I dont know who it lays the blame on.

All they kept telling us was they were waiting on Boras, hell Drayton, you knew you were out, you knew it was gonna take 100 mil to win, thats why you waited till the last minute to offer it, cause you were dumb enough to think the Mets didnt have a chance. Why would you ever wait that long to offer a player of this caliber 100 mil, why wait till the last few days, THE ASTROS NEVER SHOWED ANY COMMITMENT, and in the Free Agent world, COMMITMENT = MOENY, and dont think for a second that Drayton doesnt know that. No, good ol drayton wants to sit the guy down, and poor talk him into signing for less than market value, but it dont work that way. Not with Scott Boras.

And if you get to the 11th hour, and you know your season is done if this doesnt happen, all the other FA's have signed, Roger is waiting to find out if Carlos is staying or not, you gotta make it happen. Sorry, I know people dont wanna hear that, but its the truth. Drayton is the one who got played, bottom line. He lost to a better player. Boras won

I dont wanna hear that Roy needs money, or that Berkman needs money, other teams pony up and make it happen, I dont wanna hear about small market, big market, tv deals, whatever, Draytons got the loot, if he is losing so much money, then sell, its getting old hearing about how Drayton is in the poor house, move on if you arent making the kinda money you want.

Trust me, I know he wants to make money, and thats completely fine. But be honest with the fans, you screwed up. You thought you had the Ace, and you didnt. You got bent over cause you are cheap. Scott Boras knows who Drayton is, and Drayton knows full well who Scott Boras is and how he works. The man was dumb enough to admit that he knew we were out, and that he low balled one of the best players out there. Priceless

[NJRocket]

great post CAK

[rrj_gamz]

This is actually a good read...

However, i still call BS on the no-trade clause...Also, the more and more time passes, we never really had a shot to retain him...Bor-fatazz made sure of that...Again, I hope he chokes on all that $$$ and enjoys 7 losing seasons....

[VesceySux]

Why would Carlos care if he ruins our season? His decision, while boosting the Mets, also weakens a possible contender in the Astros. If I were him, I'd be thinking, "One less obstacle for my new team."

[Mr. Clutch]

He's cheap because he offered 105 million instead of 118 million? Give me a break. Boras and Beltran played dirty, that's why we got screwed.

[SamCassell]

How is what Boras does "playing dirty"? Did the way these negotiations went surprise anyone? Should they have surprised McLane, a savvy businessman and multi-billionaire?

[JayZ750]

Originally posted by CAKoudelka


It's one thing to be mad, quite another to be illogical. If Drayton had just stepped out weeks ago and said I can't go over this level, he would have been taking a lot of heat for that as well.

The fact of the matter is that this wasn't only about money. If, having read all the suppossed facts over the last few days, it still isn't clear to you that even if the Astros offer was EXACTLY the same as the Mets, Carlos STILL would have gone to the Mets, then you're not paying attention.

Did the 'Stros play this poorly. Of course. But they were unknowingly in a lose-lose situation. It's just in hindsight, it would have been better if they lost earlier.

[CAKoudelka]

If Drayton had just stepped out weeks ago and said I can't go over this level, he would have been taking a lot of heat for that as well.

Here is the problem with that, yeah, he was gonna take heat regardless, if he stepped out weeks ago, when he knew he wasnt going to win, he would have ONLY taken heat. But now, he takes heat, and he bends over, cause he missed out on bringing in someone else

So now we talk to the Randy Winn's of the world, and we are gonna hear about how great Lane and Burke are, face it man, Drayton blew it, he tried to play games with Boras, lets put out a joint statement LOL, what a joke

All he had to do was use his head, but instead, he wanted to beat Boras at his own game and he lost. I wish all we were complaining about today was losing beltran to the mets, but the truth is, we are also looking at a long season as well, with no help, thanks again Drayont, wonderful job

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by CAKoudelka
Here is the problem with that, yeah, he was gonna take heat regardless, if he stepped out weeks ago, when he knew he wasnt going to win, he would have ONLY taken heat. But now, he takes heat, and he bends over, cause he missed out on bringing in someone else


Two weeks ago who could we have signed? Finley and Alou signed very quickly after the winter meetings, IIRC (and I'll be honest with you, neither one of those guys excites me). J.D. Drew signed a little bit later, but I think it was more than two weeks ago.

He also didn't try to beat Boras at his own game. McLane mistakingly assumed that Beltran meant what he said about playing in Houston. While it's his fault for believing the lie, I can't fault him for taking someone at their word. It's a sad state of affairs in this world that we criticize the man that does that. Especially over a freaking sport.

[rezdawg]

Originally posted by JayZ750
The fact of the matter is that this wasn't only about money. If, having read all the suppossed facts over the last few days, it still isn't clear to you that even if the Astros offer was EXACTLY the same as the Mets, Carlos STILL would have gone to the Mets, then you're not paying attention.

Did the 'Stros play this poorly. Of course. But they were unknowingly in a lose-lose situation. It's just in hindsight, it would have been better if they lost earlier.

My sentiments exactly.

Even though the Astros could have played the game better, we never had a chance. Thanks Carlos.

[CAKoudelka]

McLane mistakingly assumed that Beltran meant what he said about playing in Houston

Several weeks ago, Boras told the Astros they were no longer in contention for Beltran. He said they had failed to reach the seven-year, $112 million threshold that would have gotten them to the next level of bidding.

You may not be excited about those other players, but I can say, I would feel a whole lot better with JD Drew in the outfield, over Biggio and Lane, and a hobbling Berkman, and its not like we didnt know what the repercusions were if we didnt get Carlos, lets be honest with each other here.

McLane made several mistakes, the first was to offer 5 yrs 75 Mill when Boras is telling you flat out, its gonna take 112 to play

It doesnt get anymore clear than that, Drayton knew what it was gonna take to get Carlos. So instead of showing Beltran that we are serious, we offer 5 yrs 75 mill. Then to play games and say, lets put out a joint statement, if thats not trying to play Boras I dont know what that is.

Drayton was foolish, when you are in a situation as big as this, with this much money, and this much as stake, you know the deal. Drayton offered the 100 mill so that he could look like the good guy in the end, hell even Boras put out good PR for the guy, telling us Drayton was competitive. Just admit you made the mistake of coming to a gun fight with a knife, because he did. No matter how you slice it, Drayton knows that he blew it. Drayton just wants us to believe that we honestly had a chance when he knew in his heart, he was never willing to pay.

If you are gonna sit there and tell me, that you go and interview for a job, and they offer you 12 bucks an hour, and then you have another company, who is willing to meet your demands pretty much, who are you gonna go with, and they just hired another guy who just won a championship, and they are working on a helluva first basemen, COME ON

In the end, Drayton wants to look like the victim, he was swept off his feet, taken for a ride, its all BS, its all spin. Drayton wanted Carlos for cheap, he wanted to get another hometown discount, I mean, hell it worked with Pettitte right, Clemens gave us one, why not go for the trifecta. NOT WITH SCOTT BORAS, and Drayton knew that

This is damage control, its the same ol Drayton, its always the agents and players fault.

[Groogrux]

Then why didn't Boras tell McLane and the media that Beltran was not going to be an Astro? Boras also said that the negotiating would start at 10/$200, but we all know that was a lie as well.

I just wish all McLane bashers would do all of us who appreciate the 5th highest winning percentage in MLB over the last decade a favor...go root for the Cubs.

[CAKoudelka]

Boras doesnt have to tell Mclane a thing, are we 5 years old, this is the big times, not sesame street, we are talking about cut throat business deals here, Boras is trying to get his client top dollar, and you know what, he deserves it

Drayton knew what he was worth, he just wasnt willing to pay

End of story

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by CAKoudelka
Boras doesnt have to tell Mclane a thing, are we 5 years old, this is the big times, not sesame street, we are talking about cut throat business deals here, Boras is trying to get his client top dollar, and you know what, he deserves it

Drayton knew what he was worth, he just wasnt willing to pay

End of story

So McLane's job is to read minds now? If you make an offer and someone tells you they're mulling it over, you're supposed to assume that they won't take it and pull out of the bidding?

[CAKoudelka]

Several weeks ago, Boras told the Astros they were no longer in contention for Beltran. He said they had failed to reach the seven-year, $112 million threshold that would have gotten them to the next level of bidding.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by CAKoudelka


Then why're all these people talking about what happened on Saturday. Are you saying Boras rejected the offer, yet the Astros, Boras, Beltran, the Mets, etc. all negotiated until the 11:00 deadline?

And ESPN, CNNSI, Fox Sports, etc. covered it all day Saturday, even though they all knew the Astros weren't in the running?

[weakfromtoday]

Originally posted by NJRocket
But we we never even invited to go down. It seemed like 5 minutes after you heard the Mets were interested, Minaya was on a plane to meet with Carlos. I don't know whether or not Minaya had Boras present at the meeting in PR, but if he didn't, it should have been another red flag that we were playing by different rules. If Boras WAS present, that should have been a red flag as well that we didn;t get that opportunity to meet in person.


Yeah and read this from ESPN today,

Espn article (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1964440)
"NEW YORK -- Carlos Beltran joined what he called "the new Mets" on Tuesday, finalizing his $119 million, seven-year contract with New York.

Beltran said he was impressed that Mets owner Fred Wilpon and general manager Omar Minaya flew down to visit him in his native Puerto Rico."



Carlos did know that Drayton wanted to fly down to Puerta Rico, didn't he? Or does that have nothing to do with the Astros and he was just stating a fact?

[Nero]

We, the fans, are all what is called 'collateral damage'.

Is Drayton personally hurt by this fiasco? Nope, still a biillionaire, last time I checked.

How bout Beltran and Boras? Nope, they got what they wanted.

How bout the rest of the Astros' players? Nope, they'll be fine too. Very few players ever actually get to even GO to a World Series, much less win one, so our own players will just keep on keeping on, making their millions, and coming in second and third place.

What about us fans?

We.. *we* get the shaft here. 4 decades of living with mediocrity, with *occasional* glimpses of potential success, only to have our hopes dashed, time and time again.

The thing that hurts this time, though, is that it actually, finally, was starting to look like we might be able to turn that corner. We had two, possibly three, top-notch pitchers coming back next year. We have possibly the best closer in the game. We have one of the best sluggers (and great guys too) in the game, in Berkman, we have a witch with the glove at Short, we have two beloved savvy vets in Baggs and Biggio, a well-liked scrappy manager, and some highly-thought-of prospects ready to step up and contribute this coming year in Burke and Lane, and a funky, possibly-great young pitcher in Backe.. it was all looking up..

But the real sizzle, the real star upon which we had hitched our wagon, was the absolute MIRACLE WORKER in Center Field. Never before had we been able to watch such a player wear our own jersey. What *couldn't* Beltran do? No need to rehash it - we all remember vividly what he did for us in the playoffs.

It was love at first sight.

While we, probably naively, believe that Beltran can in no way attain that same level of gushing love from an entire city like he got from us, I am sure Boras convinced Beltran that he would get that same love no matter where he went. And New York love is, to some people, sweeter than any other kind of love. But I digress..

But we were THIS close last year. We were one Dan Miceli away from the World Series. It was Beltran who brought us there. He lifted everyone else on the team to higher levels, made them all more confident, gave them that swagger we had so longed to see.

The stands were packed, MMP was absolutely shaking. The energy and galvanization that occurred in this city would have had the gold pouring into Drayton's coffers like a river this coming season. With a full season together, with beltran here for the whole year, we could actually win this whole thing! At least that's what everyone was thinking, myself included. But even then, it was more than just that. Beltran was just a joy to watch playing baseball. He reminded me again why I like this game. It was going to be fun to bring my 4-year-old son to the games, having him grow up watching the guy who could very well become known as the greatest Astro ever.

And now look at us.

In one fell swoop, all that is gone. Sure, we still have about half of what was on its way to being a .500 club last year. Yay.

But to come so close, and with the promise of even more still dangling tantalizingly just outside our grasp, to have it all yanked away like this is just incredibly disappointing.

The point of all this is this: *IF* it all really was about the money for Boras/Beltran, then what does it boil down to? 105 mil over 7 years. 15 million per season. Versus 119 mil over 7 years. 17 million per season.

Ok, that's 2 million per year of a cost-increase for Drayton.

What would the results have been, versus what they are now?

Let's just assume that Drayton takes on that same 119 mil contract, and that Boras/Beltran decide that Houston's money is just as good as NY's (a big IF btw). Would the team's increased intake of money as a result of having Beltran playing here be enough to compensate for the extra 2 mil per year? Maybe I'm being naive again, but I believe it would.

Of course there could be mitigating circumstances, of course Beltran could blow out a knee in year one and totally screw our ability to sign anyone else for the next half-decade. But to negotiate with that 'prudence' in mind is not placing *winning* as the highest priority. So I don't care about what *MIGHT* happen, not when you have in your grasp possibly one of the great players of the era.

So now, compare that 2 million extra per year to the consequences of NOT signing him.

Now, the team is either going to sign some 3rd-rate players in a knee-jerk reaction to losing Beltran, and probably spend as much as the 15 million per season they were going to spend on Beltran anyway.. or else they will go into 'rebuilding mode', and not sign anyone else, leaving it all up to the kids this year, also leaving Bags and Biggio out to dry as well.. (No Rings for YOU)

So let's assume that the first route, signing some other players in place of Beltran, his costs stay *roughly* the same. And on the second route, his costs are maybe 5 million per year less.

So, will the drop in profits this year be greater than his savings?

In other words, will the total lack of enthusiasm and support for a suddenly-lucky-to-win-60-games team equate to a greater loss of profits than signing Beltran would have cost?

I don't know for sure. But I believe so. And I *HOPE* so.

Because when you have a player like Beltran within your grasp, and you are truly committed to winning, then you tell that piece of crap boras 'Whatever your best deal is, I WILL beat it.' You DO it. Heck, even at 126 mil. Just do it. Let the chips fall. No excuses. And you do it early enough so that you find out if the guy simply will not play here under any circumstances, so you can still help your team compete by signing other quality players. But again, if it really was just about the jack, then he would have come here, had Drayton been willing to do what it took.

But now Boras and Drayton are suddenly spinning like mad, each trying to come out of the mud pit smelling better, as though they suddenly give a rats rear end what the fans think.

Too late Uncle Drayton. How many people do you think are going to come out to the ballpark this year? Clemens probably won't come back. Why would he? Baggs and Biggio will only be a year older, slower, and past retirement age. A rookie, and old second-baseman, and a pine-rider playing outfield. A rookie (Burke)or a whiff machine (Soriano) playing 2b. A platoon at 3b that does not even add up to the sum of its parts. Only 2 starting pitchers, neither of which were completely healthy last year, and no assurance that they will be healthy this coming year. A nice defensive SS, and a smart Catcher who apparently has a reaction time and eyes good enough to catch fastballs, but not to hit them.

Yeah, a world-class closer in Lidge. Which means he will be traded away for prospects by mid-season.

Who is going to actually buy a ticket to watch that?

See, to Uncle Drayton, this was a lose/lose situation. If he signs Beltran, then it costs him a heck of a lot of money. If he fails to sign Beltran, it costs him a heck of a lot of money. So ultimately, he's ok either way. It really is all the same to him either way.

But the thing of it is, I want an owner here who does not look at making the fans ecstatically happy as a 'loss' situation. I want an owner who believes that the fans will support a true winner, and recoup his costs through the financial rewards which come from success and winning championships.

We don't have that. And we will never have a Championship baseball team in this city as long as Uncle Drayton owns the team.

I know there are plenty of people who disagree with me about this, and that's fine. But even if such a financially irresponsible move, as some would call it, resulted in being a Champion, at least once, then it would still be worth it.

Ask the Marlins and Diamondbacks fans if they would trade back in their World Series Championship years for a more 'fiscally sound' strategy.

[Uprising]

Listened to it twice this morning in order to make this day start out well.

:cool:

[NJRocket]

That was quite possibly the best post I have ever read on this BBS

[halfbreed]

Originally posted by NJRocket
That was quite possibly the best post I have ever read on this BBS

If you like being irrational that is...

You don't tell Boras "I'll beat your best offer." What good is a team of one player? Wow we have Beltran for 7 YEARS!!!! But we lose Oswalt, Berkman and every other FA cz we can't afford them due to Beltran's contract. I loved the guy as much as all of you but if you want to field a winner it takes 9 guys a night out there and not just one.

Lets shore up our bullpen get Estes to be a #3 or 4 starter (depending on Clemens) and make the Soriano trade because it looks like we wont have to give up Backe. Then we'll basically have the same team we all thought was going to the World Series before the season last year.

Remember our miracle run happened in September with Beltran driving in only 9 runs. I know he was HUGE in the playoffs but give the other guys some credit.

[Groogrux]

What an ignorant post. "Uncle Drayton's" spending got us within one game of the muther****ing world series last year.

[CAKoudelka]

I dont think I could have said it any better Nero

What "spending" exactly helped us last year, OH, the 30 million we spent on Andy ? Or was it the 5 we spent on Roger ? We got lucky with Lidge, cause we knew Drayton wasnt gonna pay Billy, he tried with Ducky, and then when Ducky wasnt cutting it, we got Carlos through trade.

Its the same thing everytime, we "hire" some expiring contract, and then point the finger when we cant sign them, woe is us, we cant compete, we lose money.

Drayton played the fans, he had us all thinking we were in the running for Beltran, when in acuality, Boras told Drayton we were out weeks ago. He had us believing that he was doing all he could, raising his offer, waiting on Boras. It was smoke screen, Drayton low balled, he wanted to bully Boras.

Next thing the fans read, we arent aloud in Puerto Rico, when did you have to have an invitation to fly to Puerto Rico, last time I checked you could go when you wanted.

Drayton says that Boras wouldnt tell him what it would take to get Beltran, why didnt he just offer to match the highest bidder, no, not Drayton, instead, he offers to write a joint statement saying Carlos will be playing elsewhere ?? What was that ?

The more I look at the whole thing, the more I think Drayton never really had any intentions of bringing Carlos back. He wasnt prepared to spend the money. He didnt want to pay Carlos and have to also pay Berkman, Oswalt, and Pettitte, cause thats what it was gonna take. He isnt commited to winning, he is commited to putting fans in the seats, and the cheapest way to do that, is make a trade late in the season for an expiring contract, roll the dice, and hope for the best

[Groogrux]

Go root for another team. You ungrateful people make me sick.

[CAKoudelka]

I am a fan of the Astros, not the McLanes

Thanks

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by CAKoudelka
I am a fan of the Astros, not the McLanes

Thanks

And that McLane made the moves to get the Astros within one game of the World ****ing Series last year. Ingrates.

[JunkyardDwg]

Originally posted by CAKoudelka
McLane made several mistakes, the first was to offer 5 yrs 75 Mill when Boras is telling you flat out, its gonna take 112 to play

It doesnt get anymore clear than that, Drayton knew what it was gonna take to get Carlos. So instead of showing Beltran that we are serious, we offer 5 yrs 75 mill. Then to play games and say, lets put out a joint statement, if thats not trying to play Boras I dont know what that is.

OK, here's the problem with that. You don't go offering the farm on you first offer, ESPECIALLY to Boras. We offer him 7 and 112, then he'll say it needs to be 8 or 9 at 120 or 130. Plus, only WELL AFTER the Astros 5yr and 75mill offer did Boras actually come and say he had five teams offering around 112 and that no teams will be considered who meet that threshold. And here's my last point and its just as important. At the time the Astros offered the 75mill, they were the ONLY serious team vying CB's services. The Mets didn't come into play until about 3 weeks later, the Yankees were still a mystery and the Cubs were still a long, long, longshot at best. So why overpay at such an early stage when you're the only team in the running. I know why, cause you don't wanna be the Rangers pt. II

[CAKoudelka]

And that McLane made the moves to get the Astros within one game of the World ****ing Series last year. Ingrates

I am gonna go out on a limb here, but, I am guessing Gerry had a hand in most of the moves made, Drayton did have final say, but, after looking at his first "deal" without Gerry......


You make the call

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by CAKoudelka
I am gonna go out on a limb here, but, I am guessing Gerry had a hand in most of the moves made, Drayton did have final say, but, after looking at his first "deal" without Gerry......


You make the call

Newsflash: All teams have GMs. He's still the owner of the team and the one that approved the deals. Ingrates.

[Uprising]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
And that McLane made the moves to get the Astros within one game of the World ****ing Series last year. Ingrates.

I've got your back man. Dryaton is what makes things happen for this team. I am actually not too upset that we didn't get Beltran, thanks to Chance, but I am upset that we wasted the entire (or most of) offseason with this dream.