ClutchFans - Berkman: what should he get?

Rileydog

01-08-2005, 08:59 AM

Space cadet has done nothing but produce. great offensive skills. average outfielder. I say the bidding starts at 10 mil per year. I'd be comfortable with 12 mil per year, over 5 years.

He's better than JD drew. He has a better track record than Beltre. He's a class below puljols and guererro.

arkoe

01-08-2005, 09:19 AM

I'd say he's going to look long and hard at what Beltran gets. He obviously doesn't have the speed or defense Carlos does, but he's a better all around hitter.

Jared Novak

01-08-2005, 10:43 AM

I wouldn't be suprised to see Berkman get $72-75 million over six or seven years with a club option buyout for an eighth year.

Of course it also depends on how well Berkman does this year after his ACL tear.

IMHO, I think Berkman will be a career Astro. McLane wants to make him and Beltran the new generation Killer B's like Bagwell and Biggio were.

rezdawg

01-08-2005, 11:07 AM

9 million per.

Trader_Jorge

01-08-2005, 11:16 AM

If you are talking about OBP or OPS, Berkman is one of the top 5 players in the game. There aren't many switch-hitting players that can hit for both power and average. Lance also has one of the best eyes for the strikezone in the league. He draws a ton of walks. His defense has looked bad because he has played out of position his entire pro career. At Rice, he was one of the best defensive first basemen in the NCAA. The problem is we have a one-armed cripple manning that position currently. When Bagwell retires, I anticipate Berkman will move to 1B. I would say Berkman is worth 6 years $65mm or so.

meh

01-08-2005, 03:08 PM

Before this injury, I'd say the market value of Berkman's probably in line with top FA sluggers over the years: Thome, Vlad, Giambi, etc. The Yankees or the Red Sox could probably afford to give him something like 6 yrs/ 90-100 mil. The Astros probably have to fork over 5 yrs/70 mil.

Now, I really have no clue. It just depends on how the injury heals. I hope the Astros give him a 4-5 year contract with about $7 mil guaranteed, and another $5 mil/yr incentives. This way Berkman gets some security, while the Astros won't have a deadweight contract should Berkman not recover fully.

Aceshigh7

01-08-2005, 03:22 PM

I believe he is the best and most underrated position player on the Astros. I believe if he returns to form and has a good year after this injury we have got to give him close to what Beltran gets. He deserves it.

Gummi Clutch

01-09-2005, 12:56 PM

Berkman: what should he get?

SURGERY.

steddinotayto

01-09-2005, 01:07 PM

We all lost sight at how well Berkman played in the postseason because of Beltran's magical run.

G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB OBP SLG AVG

12 46 12 16 3 0 4 12 31 8 10 1 .436 .674 .348

not quite record setting numbers a la Beltran, but Berkman DID produce. IMO, I think if Lance comes back 100% his offseason injury, he should be given 10-12 mil per year. He's one of the best hitters in the NL.

edc

01-09-2005, 01:13 PM

5 years / $60M with a $13M option (either side) on a sixth year feels about right. Right around the low end of the Beltran bidding.

T_in_Charlotte

01-09-2005, 05:23 PM

whatever he gets, it should include a no flag football restriction in it.

Stack24

01-09-2005, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by Gummi Clutch
SURGERY.
Already had it like the next day after the injury...perks of being in professional sports and having doctors all around

isoman2kx

01-09-2005, 05:52 PM

yep

sure hope he doesn't miss more than what's predicted for after-surgery

we need the only rbi machine we'll have this year.

man.... where's the offense going to come from?

ausmus? everett? biggio? bagwell? taveras? lamb?

Hmm

01-10-2005, 02:09 AM

Originally posted by isoman2kx
yep

sure hope he doesn't miss more than what's predicted for after-surgery

we need the only rbi machine we'll have this year.

man.... where's the offense going to come from?

ausmus? everett? biggio? bagwell? taveras? lamb?

Jose Cruz Jr?

rrj_gamz

01-10-2005, 09:40 AM

If he didn't screw up his knee, I'd bet $10MM/year, but it won't be as there is uncertainty...He was slow before, but now, even slower...But he can hit...

Gummi Clutch

01-10-2005, 10:44 AM

I just heard a clip of Berkman on 610AM stating that he was aware of what the Astros offered Beltran and knows that the money is there. :rolleyes:

NJRocket

01-10-2005, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by rrj_gamz
If he didn't screw up his knee, I'd bet $10MM/year, but it won't be as there is uncertainty...He was slow before, but now, even slower...But he can hit...

If we dont give him at least 10 / year, you can look forward to 19 different threads on how Drayton screwed this up too.

Phillyrocket

01-10-2005, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by Gummi Clutch
I just heard a clip of Berkman on 610AM stating that he was aware of what the Astros offered Beltran and knows that the money is there. :rolleyes:

If Berkman thinks he's worth Beltran money he's nuts. He's a great player but not in the Pujols/Vlad/Beltran league. If his agent is Boras I'm going to puke.

Summer Song Giver

01-10-2005, 11:06 AM

I would offer Berkman 5/60 today but I would probably feel safer getting it done somewhere midseason when I'm sure his leg won't fall off..

ROCKSS

01-10-2005, 11:08 AM

9 million - 6 years

SamCassell

01-10-2005, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by Phillyrocket
If Berkman thinks he's worth Beltran money he's nuts. He's a great player but not in the Pujols/Vlad/Beltran league. If his agent is Boras I'm going to puke.

Are you serious? Berkman IS in the Pujols/Vlad/Beltran league. Pujols is probably the best hitter of the bunch, but Berkman is a close 2nd. He's a monster every year in terms of OPS/HR/Slg/walks/OBP/RBI. He's no Beltran in the OF, and he doesn't have the arm of Vlad, but for a natural 1B he does a heck of a job out there.

NJRocket

01-10-2005, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by Phillyrocket
If his agent is Boras I'm going to puke.

its not

MadMax

01-10-2005, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by SamCassell
Are you serious? Berkman IS in the Pujols/Vlad/Beltran league. Pujols is probably the best hitter of the bunch, but Berkman is a close 2nd. He's a monster every year in terms of OPS/HR/Slg/walks/OBP/RBI. He's no Beltran in the OF, and he doesn't have the arm of Vlad, but for a natural 1B he does a heck of a job out there.

whoa!!! you think so??? i certainly don't. you're talking about multi-tooled guys and arguably the best hitter in baseball with Pujols. i can't put lance in that category. he's a notch down from that.

Groogrux

01-10-2005, 11:34 AM

steddinotayto

01-10-2005, 11:36 AM

I think Lance means that he knows that the Astros have the money to give him an extension and not necessarily him wanting Beltran money. I doubt he'll ask for a 7/105 contract when 1. he messed up his knee playing flag football 2. which, in turn, might make him less effective as before.

MadMax

01-10-2005, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by Rocketman95
He's actually loses more than a tool for being such a horrible baserunner. :)

he has no speed...is a decent, but not spectacular defensive playe...who hits for a lesser average and for less power numbers than guys like Vlad or Pujuols. i just don't see it.

JPM0016

01-10-2005, 11:37 AM

I'd give Berkman a 5 to 7 year contract worth 12 million a year. Tejada got 12 million and Scott Rolen got 11.25 million under the new CBA. I certainly think Berkman deserves at least that.

MadMax

01-10-2005, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by JPM0016
I'd give Berkman a 5 to 7 year contract worth 12 million a year. Tejada got 12 million and Scott Rolen got 11.25 million under the new CBA. I certainly think Berkman deserves at least that.

yeah..that neighborhood is about right. i'm thinking 6 years, $72 million should get it done.

SamCassell

01-10-2005, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by MadMax
whoa!!! you think so??? i certainly don't. you're talking about multi-tooled guys and arguably the best hitter in baseball with Pujols. i can't put lance in that category. he's a notch down from that.
Pujols is in his own category. He's younger than the other guys, and is the best hitter in baseball not named Bonds. He's just in a class by himself.

Beltran vs. Berkman is apples to oranges - Beltran is never going to be the hitter Berk is. He doesn't hit for the same average, doesn't walk as much, doesn't hit for power as consistantly. Beltran's a "tools" guy, the kind who does everything well and is a heck of a fielder at a crucial position. Berkman is a "roto" guy, who doesn't do everything well but hits like a mofo.

I think Berkman compares very well to Vlad, and that's who he should be judged against. Same position, same type of player. Vlad is not a good defender. Hell of an arm, but he's erratic and makes dumb decisions in the field and on the bases at times, and his range isn't anything spectacular. Berkman is a better hitter than Vlad, imo, because Berkman has an eye for the ball and works the count. Vlad comes out swinging at anything and everything. Consequently, while they're virtually identical in terms of power, Lance is going to get on base more every year, and drive up the pitch count. And don't forget, Berkman was a monster in the postseason as well.

swilkins

01-11-2005, 11:56 AM

If he stays healthy and productive, 12mil per over max 6 seasons.

I'm pretty generous with Drayton's money.:D

Miguel

01-11-2005, 12:07 PM

8-9 million per year/ 6 years.

3-4 million in incentives. 35HRs, .300 avg, more than one stolen base :p, etc etc.

anywhere from a possible 11-13 million once all the incentives were to kick in. Fair? maybe, maybe no. The injury probably cut out 1-2 million off his deal per year.

NJRocket

01-11-2005, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by Miguel
The injury probably cut out 1-2 million off his deal per year.

I'm more concerned with the 1-2 steps he lost per game

Miguel

01-11-2005, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by NJRocket
I'm more concerned with the 1-2 steps he lost per game

He lost a step or 2? Wouldn't that put him in the red? :p

Beenz

01-11-2005, 12:27 PM

saying that berkman becomes the face of the franchise...will he move to first once Bagwell's contract is up and eventually retires.

mubeen

rezdawg

01-11-2005, 03:51 PM

I think 9 million per season is good for a base salary.

I agree with Miguel, that you have to throw in some incentives.

Allow him to earn up to 12 million per year.

Jester

01-15-2005, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by Jared Novak
I wouldn't be suprised to see Berkman get $72-75 million over six or seven years with a club option buyout for an eighth year.

Of course it also depends on how well Berkman does this year after his ACL tear.

IMHO, I think Berkman will be a career Astro. McLane wants to make him and Beltran the new generation Killer B's like Bagwell and Biggio were.
I totally agree with the amount you mentioned. Berkman is one of the top hitters in the game and still has a long career ahead of him. Drayton can allocate a portion of the money that was targeted for Beltran. Lance is the most consistant player on the Astros, hands down.

Stack24

01-15-2005, 04:53 PM

I don't know how many of you caught the little audio with Berkman after the Beltran stuff.

He was saying that he is aware that the money is there becuase he saw what Beltran was offered and he said that if you look at then numbers between him and Beltran that they are comprable if not better.

The only thing that Beltran had over Berkman would be his speed. I don't think that he would get anywhere near 17 Million but i am sure he wants Drayton to pay up for the work he has done up till now. The injury he sustained is going to play a part in the final amount but when you look at the stats they are pretty close.

Last Year -

Berkman : .316 AVG 30 HR 106 RBI
Beltran: .260 AVG 38 HR 104 RBI

Career -

Berkman (6 Seasons): .303 AVG 156 HR 535 RBI
Beltran ( 8 Seasons): .284 AVG 146 HR 569 RBI

Pretty easy to see that Berkman has played better than Beltran over his career. He is only a year younger. Beltran does bring speed and defense to the plate.

But when you look at the numbers, Berkman does deserve some good money for how he has played and the numbers he has put up.

bigboymumu

01-15-2005, 05:02 PM

He should be in between Vlad and JD. 5/60 to 6/75.

Stack24

01-15-2005, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by bigboymumu
He should be in between Vlad and JD. 5/60 to 6/75.

I would put him around 6/78 or close to 80's with signing bonuses and stuff....13-14 Million a year.

Vlad is a good hitter and JD is never healthy but out of the Three Berkman is just that much better of a hitter and has power. More Valuable then either one in my opinion.

Fegwu

01-15-2005, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by edc
5 years / $60M with a $13M option (either side) on a sixth year feels about right. Right around the low end of the Beltran bidding.

Sounds fair to all concerned.

Berkman should not have any problem signing for that offer.

stubbyc

01-17-2005, 12:27 AM

I want someone to explain to me why Berkman should get less money than what Beltran should get. Don't bring up the 5 tool thing because according to the definition Beltran isn't really a 5 tool player and Berkman seems to have a major advantage in that whole hitting aspect of the game.

stubbyc

01-17-2005, 12:29 AM

stubbyc

01-17-2005, 12:30 AM

Originally posted by Rocketman95
He's actually loses more than a tool for being such a horrible baserunner. :)

Does Beltrans baserunning make up for 58 points in batting average? Or nearly 100 points in on base %? How does .258 qualify as the tool of "hitting for average"?

MadMax

01-17-2005, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by bigboymumu
He should be in between Vlad and JD. 5/60 to 6/75.

my goodness...we agree on something! about $12 million/year sounds about right.

bigboymumu

01-17-2005, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by MadMax
my goodness...we agree on something! about $12 million/year sounds about right.

WOW! Couldn't be right.

MadMax

01-17-2005, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by bigboymumu
WOW! Couldn't be right.

yeah...one of us needs to change our mind.

rocketlaunch

01-18-2005, 04:05 PM

he has asked for 11mil in arbitration we have offered 10 mil

MadMax

01-18-2005, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by rocketlaunch
he has asked for 11mil in arbitration we have offered 10 mil

GREAT NEWS!!!

leroy420

01-18-2005, 04:14 PM

5 yrs, 55 million. Done.

MadMax

01-18-2005, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by leroy420
5 yrs, 55 million. Done.

DONE!! sounds great!

Jester

01-18-2005, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by stubbyc
Well, comparing Beltran to Pujols is quite nuts IMO. Comparing Berkman to Beltran isn't nuts at all.
Are you serious Beltra compared to Berkman? One post season aside, Beltran has been nowhere near Berkman's career numbers.

MadMax

01-18-2005, 04:21 PM

Originally posted by Jester
Are you serious Beltra compared to Berkman? One post season aside, Beltran has been nowhere near Berkman's career numbers.

but Beltran will be paid around $17million/year..while Berkman is asking for $11million/year.

Stack24

01-18-2005, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by MadMax
but Beltran will be paid around $17million/year..while Berkman is asking for $11million/year.

Kind of crazy when you look at the numbers between Beltran and Berkman.

Berkman has better numbers in everything and it's pretty crazy that he is not making more than 11 million.

leroy420

01-18-2005, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by Stack24
Kind of crazy when you look at the numbers between Beltran and Berkman.

Berkman has better numbers in everything and it's pretty crazy that he is not making more than 11 million.

Had he not decided to participate in the church flag football game, he'd be asking for between 13 and 15 million. In a way that none of us wanted, his injury actually helps the Astros a little.

Stack24

01-18-2005, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by leroy420
Had he not decided to participate in the church flag football game, he'd be asking for between 13 and 15 million. In a way that none of us wanted, his injury actually helps the Astros a little.

Yeah i completly see that as well..but his speed wasn't the biggest factor on the team..he never had that...I guess he might eventually move to first and doesn't need the mobility he might in the outfield.

Jester

01-19-2005, 03:57 AM

Nick

01-19-2005, 08:38 AM

I've never seen so much panic for a guy who's hurt his knee who:

a.) Has yet to miss any games because of it.

b.) Wasn't a speedy guy to begin with.

c.) Doesn't play a sport that really requires you to be able to jump or pivot sharply in order to be a superstar.

d.) Had this injury in 2004... where doctor's perform ACL repairs with one hand tied behind their back, and players come back to FOOTBALL faster than ever.

I'm mainly typing this becuase everybody I've talked to has already penciled this guy in as a big question mark for next year because of his knee... yea right.

If Craig Biggio can come back and hit 20 HR's after this type of injury (which happened 5 years ago)... a younger guy like Lance will bounce back just fine. And hell... with all the extra rehab he's doing, he'll probably be in the best shape he's ever been in at the start of the season anyways.

Also, from the chronicle this morning... on locking up Lance to a long-term contract:
"They're so close," Berkman said of the arbitration offers. "I'm sure we'll be able to work something out."

MadMax

01-19-2005, 08:54 AM

Originally posted by Stack24
Kind of crazy when you look at the numbers between Beltran and Berkman.

Berkman has better numbers in everything and it's pretty crazy that he is not making more than 11 million.

it shows something to me:

market value is real. but it doesn't mean that every contract signed matches with market value. just because one team is willing to overpay, doesn't mean that if a guy gets a contract its necessarily market value...particularly if the negotitations are handled in such a way where you don't know what numbers you're bidding against.
.

Supermac34

01-19-2005, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by stubbyc
I want someone to explain to me why Berkman should get less money than what Beltran should get. Don't bring up the 5 tool thing because according to the definition Beltran isn't really a 5 tool player and Berkman seems to have a major advantage in that whole hitting aspect of the game.

Berkman is probably a better hitter with more power for the long haul.

In fact, everybody would be talking about the awesome playoffs that Berkman had if Beltran hadn't had a historic level playoff performance.

That being said...Berkman is an average fielder with average speed. Beltran is a superb fielder with superb speed. He plays a KEY position in center field and he is one of the best at it. He not only scores runs with his speed, but he takes away runs with his speed in center. He made fielding MMP at center look easy for most of the year.

That is the main difference. There are lots of good hitters that have power in the majors. There are very few that have the hitting, power and speed to field center effectively.

Beltran gets an extra $5 million a year for defense and speed, basically. He can score runs all by himself with his speed and can take away runs with his fielding and speed.

That is the difference.