ClutchFans - Are Christians in the U.S. in trouble?

FranchiseBlade

01-06-2005, 10:37 AM

This is something I've been thinking a lot about lately. The article posted by Gifford in another thread inspired me to elaborate on this.

Originally posted by gifford1967
What Became of Conservatives?
by Paul Craig Roberts

Many Christians think that war in the Middle East signals "end times" and that they are about to be wafted up to heaven.

Even Christians have fallen into idolatry. There appears to be a large number of Americans who are prepared to kill anyone for George Bush.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts81.html

Talking about Christians and George W Bush has really been on my mind a lot lately.

I think that Bush is one of the 5 worst things that has threatened the Christian community in the twentieth century... at least in the United States.

George W. Bush ran in 2000 claiming that his role model was Jesus Christ. I heard a Muslim professor speaking about this. He said that most practicing muslims don't want a seperation of Church of state, at least when it goes in their favor. The American Muslim population voted overwhelmingly for Bush in 2000. A large part of the reason for this was because Bush spoke about Jesus Christ as his role model, and to them that was a really good thing to have in leadership.

However, most people didn't beleive that Jesus Christ would adopt a fist strike pre-emptive invasion policy against a nation that wasn't a threat to the U.S. to begin with.

Bush's actions have been anything but in line with his proclaimed role model. He has also appointed an Attorney General, who wrote legal briefs defending the use of torture. That certainly isn't very Christ like.

Yet all along Bush has worn his 'faith' on his sleeve, and speaks of it frequently. His words speak of a strong faith, but his actions go against it.

Meanwhile he trumpets putting an amendment in our constitution to forbid gay marriage, and speaks openly against abortion. As a result many Christians who will never face either of those issues see this as moral leadership, and at least according to exit polls vote for Bush on these issues.

CBS, and NBC refuse to show an add that welcomes gay people to church, claiming that it is too political. Bush frequently used divisive 'us and our values' aren't like them and their values' type speeches to further wedge these issues between us. Sadly things are turning increasingly dark for Christians in the U.S. The image of Christians is being horribly tarnished. More than that the message is being tarnished. The most visible spokesperson in our nation is claiming that Christ is his role model while following few of Christ's teachings.

MadMax

01-06-2005, 10:51 AM

What concerns me most is the blending of patriotism with the cross. The idea that the US is necessarily some chosen nation. The idea that we're a Christian nation, when you study our history.

I think that seriously demeans what Christ means to Christians. The flag is nowhere close to the cross when it comes to my own values...my own life. No where even close.

And I hear you...there is a lot of "deconversion" in explaining Christianity to people, simply because of the negative crap it gets associated with.

Hippieloser

01-06-2005, 11:43 AM

Couldn't agree more, Blade. I guess I never read the Apocryphal book of the Bible wherein Jesus sought to accumulate wealth and power, let the poor and sick fend for themselves as best they could, and led his nation into a war. It's funny, but I was raised to believe Jesus spurned such things. I guess not everyone has the same answers to the question "What would Jesus do?" "Turn the other cheek" sounds nice, but a bit impractical, no?

We want our leaders to give Christ plenty of lipservice, but no REAL service. Choosing passive resistance and striving to care for the poor and lame would be too "weak." We want a STRONG AMERICA!! So we keep Jesus nice and safe, tucked away into token prayers and iconography, where his teachings won't stand in such stark contrast to our actions.

I'm not thrilled to have George Bush, Jr. as the public face of America. I would abhor him to become the public face of Christianity, as well. Christianity is about humility, of which rich politicians and powerful men have little. That is why I would strongly prefer for them to have zero association with religion.

Why any "conservative" would want the government sticking their grubby, decadent paws into issues of faith is beyond me.

FranchiseBlade

01-10-2005, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by MadMax
What concerns me most is the blending of patriotism with the cross. The idea that the US is necessarily some chosen nation. The idea that we're a Christian nation, when you study our history.

I think that seriously demeans what Christ means to Christians. The flag is nowhere close to the cross when it comes to my own values...my own life. No where even close.

And I hear you...there is a lot of "deconversion" in explaining Christianity to people, simply because of the negative crap it gets associated with.

Yes that is a problem also. I would still be against Bush's policies even if he hadn't claimed Christ as role model, or trumpeted his religion for personal gain, but it would have done less damage to Christianity.

I think Bush probably feels sincere about his faith, but that hasn't stopped him from behaving the way he has. I wish I could ask him questions about it.

Cesar^Geronimo

01-10-2005, 10:59 AM

I don't think Bush damaged Christianity.

People who are "anti-Christian" to begin with are the only ones using him as a reason to demean Christianity.

True Christians and true seekers know better.

FranchiseBlade

01-10-2005, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by Cesar^Geronimo
I don't think Bush damaged Christianity.

People who are "anti-Christian" to begin with are the only ones using him as a reason to demean Christianity.

True Christians and true seekers know better.

Maybe he didn't damage the religion itself, but he battered the image of that religion, and tarnished it for many outsiders looking in.

I'm a Christian and not anti-Christian, but to me he puts a bad face on the religion. By claiming Christ as a role model, and then carrying out policy the way he has, it can easily serve for people who are wondering about Christianity to ask if that is the norm for Christians.

One could say that the Crusades or Inquisition didn't harm Christianity either, but certainly those actions were carried out in the name of the religion but would seem to be against the principles of the religion as well.

Hippieloser

01-11-2005, 12:24 PM

If I were anti-Christian I'd feel the religion was harming Bush's image, not the other way 'round.

Sishir Chang

01-12-2005, 10:01 AM

The problem about religions, particularly Christianity and Islam, is that they are so broad and their histories have been enmeshed with politics that its easy to interpret them to justify almost anything. I heard a saying once about the Koran that it is like an ocean where you can get almost any fish. I think the Bible is the same way.

While Jesus' views were primarily non-violent and what should be considered politically extremely liberal much of the Old Testament isn't. I'm sure GW Bush, Ashcroft and other self-professed Christians in the Admin. wouldn't have a problem finding plenty of material from the Old Testament to justify pre-emptive war, torture and even wealth accumulation.

The other problem is that religions like Christianity and Islam that have become geared towards prosetlyzation always have a political dimension. They are almost by design meant to sway the passions of large numbers of people rather than encourage personal contemplation and questioning. This makes it easier for political leaders to wrap themselves up in it.

This isn't to say that Christianity or Islam isn't contemplative or self-reflective but that most of our recent Christian political leaders aren't Benedictines but instead follow denominations that emphasize fervor over reflection.

MadMax

01-12-2005, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by Sishir Chang

This isn't to say that Christianity or Islam isn't contemplative or self-reflective but that most of our recent Christian political leaders aren't Benedictines but instead follow denominations that emphasize fervor over reflection.

actually, in truth...they step out of line from what their denominations hold as true. isn't bush methodist?? the methodist church was against the war in iraq, for example.

FranchiseBlade

01-12-2005, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by Sishir Chang

While Jesus' views were primarily non-violent and what should be considered politically extremely liberal much of the Old Testament isn't. I'm sure GW Bush, Ashcroft and other self-professed Christians in the Admin. wouldn't have a problem finding plenty of material from the Old Testament to justify pre-emptive war, torture and even wealth accumulation.

The other problem is that religions like Christianity and Islam that have become geared towards prosetlyzation always have a political dimension. They are almost by design meant to sway the passions of large numbers of people rather than encourage personal contemplation and questioning. This makes it easier for political leaders to wrap themselves up in it.

This isn't to say that Christianity or Islam isn't contemplative or self-reflective but that most of our recent Christian political leaders aren't Benedictines but instead follow denominations that emphasize fervor over reflection.

There is plenty of violence in the old testament, but Bush didn't name any of the old testament protagonists as his role model. He did name Jesus Christ as his role model. Since then his actions have not modeled Christ's.

As far as the self reflection vs. persuasion, that might be another problem. Self reflection is also very Christlike(pull the log from your eye before worrying about the splinter in another's.) It can also be a genuine way to lead others by example, and encourage the spreading of the word in that way.

However a lot of what has been done by conservatives lately isn't even persuasion. It has been an us vs. them kind of campaign. That doesn't tend to get people interested in seeking answers and spiritual truth from the bible.

Saint Louis

01-12-2005, 12:45 PM

Bush and his administration are more like the Pharisees then like Jesus and his disciples.

No Worries

01-12-2005, 01:30 PM

Isn't JC supposed to a bad*ss mofo in the second coming?

MadMax

01-12-2005, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by No Worries
Isn't JC supposed to a bad*ss mofo in the second coming?

the Bible doesn't use those words exactly

:D

No Worries

01-12-2005, 02:44 PM

For the record, I do not think that the US Christians are in trouble.

MR. MEOWGI

01-12-2005, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by MadMax
the Bible doesn't use those words exactly

:D

So Max, just wondering, what do you believe the second coming will be?

I was taught by a Franciscan monk, at my local Catholic High School back in 1986, that it is actually the final evolution of man. Like in the movie 2001 or something. Human nature will become enlightened to a christ-like nature (or something to that effect). But that was a long time ago and my memory is a bit fuzzy...

I really haven't ever gave much thought to it or researched it much.

twhy77

01-12-2005, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by MR. MEOWGI
So Max, just wondering, what do you believe the second coming will be?

I was taught by a Franciscan monk, at my local Catholic High School back in 1986, that it is actually the final evolution of man. Like in the movie 2001 or something. Human nature will become enlightened to a christ-like nature (or something to that effect). But that was a long time ago and my memory is a bit fuzzy...

I really haven't ever gave much thought to it or researched it much.

Glorified bodies? I think thats probably what he meant, bodies that can only come through Christ though according to Catholic doctrine...

but I don't think the Catholic teaching is about evolution of man in a normal Darwinian way...

MadMax

01-12-2005, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by MR. MEOWGI
So Max, just wondering, what do you believe the second coming will be?

like a thief in the night. i have no idea. and neither does anyone else.

twhy77

01-12-2005, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by MadMax
like a thief in the night. i have no idea. and neither does anyone else.

Well, we can look to Christ and the Glorified body he had upon raising from the dead...not saying How it will happen but an indicator into some of the effects and such...

MadMax

01-12-2005, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by twhy77
Well, we can look to Christ and the Glorified body he had upon raising from the dead...not saying How it will happen but an indicator into some of the effects and such...

he asked me when...not how.

twhy77

01-12-2005, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by MadMax
he asked me when...not how.

He asked what it will be, I think we're both wrong! :D

No Worries

01-12-2005, 03:28 PM

You know we could make like the Nicene Council, take a vote on it, and solve the questionof WHEN right now. :D

twhy77

01-12-2005, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by No Worries
You know we could make like the Nicene Council, take a vote on it, and solve the questionof WHEN right now. :D

Yeah because thats exactly what the Nicence Council did.

MadMax

01-12-2005, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by twhy77
He asked what it will be, I think we're both wrong! :D

you're right!!! i thought he asked when!! :) doh!!

halfbreed

01-12-2005, 08:54 PM

I think the ACLU has done more to damage Christianity than Bush (although he hasn't helped).

I do not mean to start a flame war or to say one religion is better than another but, to me at least, it seems like it's unacceptable to many people in America to be Christian.

Take for example the recent episode of a company selling 'Gay Jesus Dolls'. I'm not going to say that it should be illegal to sell these because it's a capitalist country and you sell what you want as long as it makes money. What I wonder is what the outcry would have been had they been selling 'Gay Muhammad Dolls'.

I don't want you guys to think I'm some fundamentalist Christian who is close minded (although for some reason to most non-Christians I think one follows the other). I also know that after 9/11 many Muslims faced a backlash. I'm just wondering if I'm the only one that feels that to objective (non-Christian and non-Muslims) bystanders, it's more acceptable to be a Muslim today than a Christian.

P.S. I hope this isn't derailing the thread. To me these topics kind of fit together.

MR. MEOWGI

01-12-2005, 09:36 PM

FranchiseBlade

01-12-2005, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by halfbreed
I think the ACLU has done more to damage Christianity than Bush (although he hasn't helped).

I do not mean to start a flame war or to say one religion is better than another but, to me at least, it seems like it's unacceptable to many people in America to be Christian.

Take for example the recent episode of a company selling 'Gay Jesus Dolls'. I'm not going to say that it should be illegal to sell these because it's a capitalist country and you sell what you want as long as it makes money. What I wonder is what the outcry would have been had they been selling 'Gay Muhammad Dolls'.

I don't want you guys to think I'm some fundamentalist Christian who is close minded (although for some reason to most non-Christians I think one follows the other). I also know that after 9/11 many Muslims faced a backlash. I'm just wondering if I'm the only one that feels that to objective (non-Christian and non-Muslims) bystanders, it's more acceptable to be a Muslim today than a Christian.

P.S. I hope this isn't derailing the thread. To me these topics kind of fit together.

I understand what you are saying. The reason why my thoughts are a little different, is that I think the more damage comes from within than without.

I don't think people complainging about manger scenes in public or whatever makes Christians look bad. I think it actually makes them appear more sympathetic. Those that are attacking can(not always) come of as petty, and vendictive. So in that aspect I believe that when people who wrap themselves very publically in Christianity but then don't behave accordingly they are the most damaging.

This might actually be, at least in part, my own hangup. I'm extremely liberal, but I can't stand politcal corectness, neo-hippies who care more about protesting something than the actual issues involved. The reason is that they are tarnishing something I truly do believe in. If those things weren't around to distract from the issues we could actually have substantive debate.

So I don't know for certain but it is possible that my own hang up about having a pure cause, religion or whatever is coloring my view on things.

halfbreed

01-12-2005, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by MR. MEOWGI
Every man thinks his burden is the heaviest.

Don't dobut that, which is why I wanted an outsider's view.

Sishir Chang

01-12-2005, 09:41 PM

Originally posted by halfbreed
I think the ACLU has done more to damage Christianity than Bush (although he hasn't helped).

The thing is that Christianity has gotten special treatment compared to other religions, or non-religion, for most of US history. Its only been relatively recently that groups like the ACLU have been pressing the US government to live up to the establishment clause and treat Christianity like any other religion that many Christians start feeling that Christianity is under attack.

For instance a Christian state legislator in MN a few years ago pushed for bringing back prayer in school and displaying the Ten Commandments in court houses and railed against those liberals attacking religion yet he still wanted to keep the Dalai Lama from addressing the Legislature.

IMO Christianity isn't under attack in America but it is losing its special place as THE American religion.

rimbaud

01-12-2005, 10:19 PM

Originally posted by halfbreed
I do not mean to start a flame war or to say one religion is better than another but, to me at least, it seems like it's unacceptable to many people in America to be Christian.

So it is unacceptable to be Christian in the most Christian industrialized country in the world? Where 75-80% of the country is Christian?

Sishir Chang

01-12-2005, 10:31 PM

Good point Rimbaud.

MadMax

01-13-2005, 07:20 AM

Originally posted by rimbaud
So it is unacceptable to be Christian in the most Christian industrialized country in the world? Where 75-80% of the country is Christian?

You know what's funny...the rest of the world's Christians don't see it that way at all. People come from all over the world as missionaries to the United States..particularly to minister to their own nation's people who now live in the US...because they can't imagine how one could be a Christian in this culture. Not a government thing...but a culture thing. I know two pastors...one from Brazil...another from Korea...that left their homelands and loved ones behind to do this here in Houston.

rimbaud

01-13-2005, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by MadMax

Everyone outside the US thinks that American consumer culture is evil and bad for our country (and theirs). Your two examples of Brazil and Korea are different because they are more "third world" and, thus, religious. There is going to be a serious clash within Christianity becaue the South (Latin America, Africa, Southeast Asia) are developing a really conservative and often mystical form of Christianity and are slowly migrating it back North. There is a religious leder in Africa, for example, who really wants to be the next pope. The Christianities are often so different that problems could arise.

In any event, I am referring to whenever census reports or more informal large surveys are taken, Americans respond more religiously than any other industrialized world. Go to church more, pray more, believe more, more against abortion for moral reasons, believe in crationism more, hell/the devil more, etc.. That is all I meant.

MadMax

01-13-2005, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by rimbaud
Everyone outside the US thinks that American consumer culture is evil and bad for our country (and theirs). Your two examples of Brazil and Korea are different because they are more "third world" and, thus, religious. There is going to be a serious clash within Christianity becaue the South (Latin America, Africa, Southeast Asia) are developing a really conservative and often mystical form of Christianity and are slowly migrating it back North. There is a religious leder in Africa, for example, who really wants to be the next pope. The Christianities are often so different that problems could arise.

In any event, I am referring to whenever census reports or more informal large surveys are taken, Americans respond more religiously than any other industrialized world. Go to church more, pray more, believe more, more against abortion for moral reasons, believe in crationism more, hell/the devil more, etc.. That is all I meant.

i wasn't arguing with your point...just calling attention to an interesting side note. i think what many people in america call christianity is a far cry from what Christ seems to be asking of us, as his followers. and i think that's perceived worldwide by many believers.

i had a friend from nigeria who is christian. she talked about her fear of coming to a culture that was really quite anti-christian, but was so subtle about it because the faces of christianity are everywhere. she would say, "sure...people go to church...but is it important to them here? in nigeria, no matter what...you make time for worship. you drive many miles and even if your tire blows out, you get out and walk to church and come back and fix the tire later."

i tend to agree with her assessment, particularly in the south. people go to church and identify with christianity in a cultrual way..but not in a meaningful spiritual way. please understand that i obviously don't mean EVERYONE in the south. this is why i don't freak about the outward symbols being removed from public buildings and the like...they're a false religion for so many. they symbolize "the good old days" which weren't always so good and have very little to do with their real spiritual meaning.

GladiatoRowdy

01-13-2005, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by MadMax
this is why i don't freak about the outward symbols being removed from public buildings and the like...they're a false religion for so many. they symbolize "the good old days" which weren't always so good and have very little to do with their real spiritual meaning.

Very nice insight and analysis. I love having rational, thinking conservatives on the board. It makes me feel like I'm not just trapped in a dittohead world and that there are true conservatives out there.

Anyone who wants to can worship all they want either in church (synagogue, temple, mosque, whatever) or in private. There is no good reason to try to get religious idols placed on public property.

MadMax

01-13-2005, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by andymoon
Very nice insight and analysis. I love having rational, thinking conservatives on the board. It makes me feel like I'm not just trapped in a dittohead world and that there are true conservatives out there.

Anyone who wants to can worship all they want either in church (synagogue, temple, mosque, whatever) or in private. There is no good reason to try to get religious idols placed on public property.

it's really not a political issue to me...but a spiritual one. one about the faith i share with many others. i think we as christians have far more we should be up in arms about...things happening or not happening in our own homes/churches/the rest of the world to not freak out about idols. we tend to make idols of these things, i think.

Sishir Chang

01-13-2005, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by MadMax
You know what's funny...the rest of the world's Christians don't see it that way at all. People come from all over the world as missionaries to the United States..particularly to minister to their own nation's people who now live in the US...because they can't imagine how one could be a Christian in this culture. Not a government thing...but a culture thing. I know two pastors...one from Brazil...another from Korea...that left their homelands and loved ones behind to do this here in Houston.

Do you think one of the factors is that they want to minister to immigrants in their own language and also what follows their own traditions?

I can't say for Christian foreign missionaries but Buddhist monks will come to minister to Buddhist communities, like Vietnamese monks for Vietnamese Americans, than have those immigrants go to another Buddhist temple. For instance almost no immigrants from predominantly Buddhist Asian cultures will go to the local Zen Center which is primarily white Americans.

twhy77

01-13-2005, 09:37 AM

Originally posted by MadMax

i tend to agree with her assessment, particularly in the south. people go to church and identify with christianity in a cultrual way..but not in a meaningful spiritual way. please understand that i obviously don't mean EVERYONE in the south. this is why i don't freak about the outward symbols being removed from public buildings and the like...they're a false religion for so many. they symbolize "the good old days" which weren't always so good and have very little to do with their real spiritual meaning.

Yeah it seriously doesn't bum me out either. I just hope secularism doesn't become the new religion that we all must bow down to. That's why we need to build prettier churches.

FranchiseBlade

01-13-2005, 10:33 AM

They're 5 miles high as the crow flies
Leavin' vapour trails against a blood red sky
Movin' in from the east toward the west
With balaclava helmets over their heads, yes!

But if you think that jesus christ is coming
Honey you've got another thing coming
If he ever finds out who's hi-jacked his name
He'll cut out his heart and turn in his grave

Islam is rising
The christians mobilising
The world is on its elbows and knees
It's forgotten the message and worships the creeds

It's war, she cried, it's war, she cried, this is war
Drop your possessions, all you simple folk
You will fight them on the beaches in your underclothes
You will thank the good lord for raising the union jack
You'll watch the ships out of harbour
And the bodies come floating back

If the real jesus christ were to stand up today
He'd be gunned down by the c.i.a.
Oh, the lights that now burn brightest behind stained glass
Will cast the darkest shadows upon the human heart
But god didn't build himself that throne
God doesn't live in israel or rome
God doesn't belong to the yankee dollar
God doesn't plant the bombs for hezbollah
God doesn't even go to church
And god won't send us down to allah to burn
No, god will remind us what we already know
That the human race is about to reap what it's sown

The world is on its elbows and knees
It's forgotten the message and worships the creeds
Armageddon days are here again
-The The

thegary

01-13-2005, 10:59 AM

One life I'm gonna live it up
I'm takin' flight I said i'll never get enough
Stand tall I'm young and kinda proud
I'm on top as long as the music's loud

If you think I'll sit around as the world goes by
You're thinkin' like a fool cause it's a case of do or die
Out there is a fortune waitin' to be had
You think I'll let it go you're mad
You've got another thing comin'

That's right here's where the talkin' ends
Well listen this night there'll be some action spent
Drive hard I'm callin' all the shots
I got an ace card comin' down on the rocks

If you think I'll sit around while you chip away my brain
Listen I ain't foolin' and you'd better think again
Out there is a fortune waitin' to be had
You think I'll let it go you're mad
You got another thing comin

In this world we're livin' in we have our share of sorrow
Answer now is don't give in aim for a new tomorrow

Oh so hot no time to take a rest yeah
Act tough ain't room for second best
Real strong got me some security
Hey I'm a big smash I'm goin' for infinity yeah

If you think I'll sit around as the world goes by
You're thinkin' like a fool cause it's a case of do or die
Out there is a fortune waitin' to be had
You think I'll let it go you're mad
You've got another thing comin'

-judas priest

MadMax

01-13-2005, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by Sishir Chang
Do you think one of the factors is that they want to minister to immigrants in their own language and also what follows their own traditions?

that's not what the ones i know are doing.

GladiatoRowdy

01-13-2005, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by MadMax
it's really not a political issue to me...but a spiritual one. one about the faith i share with many others. i think we as christians have far more we should be up in arms about...things happening or not happening in our own homes/churches/the rest of the world to not freak out about idols. we tend to make idols of these things, i think.

Very well said.

BTW, if you get a chance, email my moniker at gmail dot com. I have something I would like to talk with you about offline.

MadMax

01-13-2005, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by andymoon
Very well said.

BTW, if you get a chance, email my moniker at gmail dot com. I have something I would like to talk with you about offline.

done

ROCKSS

01-13-2005, 01:35 PM

delete

rimbaud

01-13-2005, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by MadMax
i wasn't arguing with your point...just calling attention to an interesting side note. i think what many people in america call christianity is a far cry from what Christ seems to be asking of us, as his followers. and i think that's perceived worldwide by many believers.

Understood, and I agree with you, believe it or not. American Christianity is generally an odd mixture of fervor and superficiality. But I do get annoyed by the Christians who always cry persecution and blame it on the atheists/agnostics/humanists that make up a very small percentage of the US and, generally, have very little power.

MR. MEOWGI

01-13-2005, 10:24 PM

So what about the second coming (or should I start a new thread?) :) :) :)

MadMax

01-14-2005, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by rimbaud
Understood, and I agree with you, believe it or not. American Christianity is generally an odd mixture of fervor and superficiality. But I do get annoyed by the Christians who always cry persecution and blame it on the atheists/agnostics/humanists that make up a very small percentage of the US and, generally, have very little power.

and i agree with that, too. from the outside, i'm sure that's a joke to see...from the inside, i see it as misplaced priorities...especially when Christ calls us to consider it gain to suffer for our faith. if the model is the crucified Christ...then the church sounds like a bunch of freaking whiners!! :)

MadMax

01-14-2005, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by MR. MEOWGI
So what about the second coming (or should I start a new thread?) :) :) :)

you can if you won't....i don't know exactly what will go down, meowgi. check out Revelation, I guess. there are varying opinions across the spectrum of Christianity as to what it means...how it will go down...etc.

personally, i don't spend that much time thinking about it. having a hard enough time following Christ today without worrying about tomorrow. which leads me to my favorite verses in the Bible...Matthew 6:25-35

No Worries

01-14-2005, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by MadMax
personally, i don't spend that much time thinking about it. having a hard enough time following Christ today without worrying about tomorrow.
Not Rapture Ready(tm), eh? ;)

MadMax

01-14-2005, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by No Worries
Not Rapture Ready(tm), eh? ;)

i don't put that bumper sticker on my car...no. if it goes down that way, i hope i'm ready. but i don't think speculationg about it or worrying about it is the point. i think we pay waaayyyy too much attention to stuff out in the future that we don't know about, and don't take care of the stuff that Christ called us to be taking care of immediately/in the right now.

thegary

01-14-2005, 08:52 AM

25 “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes?_ 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet Nature feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?_ 27 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? 28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin._ 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these._ 30 If that is how Nature clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will it not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?_ 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’_ 32 For the consumers run after all these things, and Nature knows that you need them._ 33 But seek first its preservation, and all these things will be given to you as well._ 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.