Why is the US so much more religous as a country than majority of developed countries

[pirc1]

The polls show the moral (religous) values was the number one reson why Bush got relected. I am just wondering why is the US so much more religous compared to countries like France, Germany, Sweden, England, or even Italy.

Mark

[JayZ750]

Because America rules and Europe sucks....j/k

I've followed this tidbit a bit and it seems to be that America is not more religious, or at least not that much more religious, but is ENORMOUSLY more open about it, especially in politics.

[RocketMan Tex]

It's because we are more sexually repressed than the rest of the world........

[robbie380]

by developed countries do you just mean europe?

[Uprising]

I don't think the US is more reliegious.

We are more open about it (like said above), and are on a side....."conservative".

I have been to many other more religious countries that I would call a developed Nation. (Saudi.....)

[giddyup]

It's an essential part of our foundation-- like it or not.

[FranchiseBlade]

A lot of people are saying that America isn't that much more religious, but I heard about a study that showed 50-60%(approximately) of Americans attend religious services, while only 10-20%(approximately) attend in France. I'm not sure of the exact figures because it was on about a week ago.

As far as an answer, I'm not sure. It is interesting to think about.

And by developed countries it doesn't just mean Europe. We are also talking about Canada, Japan, etc.

[ima_drummer2k]

Originally posted by RocketMan Tex
It's because we are more sexually repressed than the rest of the world........
Speak for yourself!

I'm only conservative when it comes to politics...

:D

[DaDakota]

It has nothing to do with religion, people voted because they fear terrorism and think that GW will be more dilligent about it.

DD

[Rocket River]

QUESTION: Why does being less religious seem to take an air of 'More enlightened'?

Rocket River

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by Rocket River
QUESTION: Why does being less religious seem to take an air of 'More enlightened'?

Rocket River

I agree with the premise of what you are talking about. I think the question is worded horribly, as is the whole premise. It should be about the legislation of religion or how much religion plays a part in politics. Many devout followers don't want legislated religion, or their religion to have anything to do with government.

[Saint Louis]

Is it religion or sports that is opium for the masses?

[moestavern19]

Originally posted by giddyup
It's an essential part of our foundation-- like it or not.


Bingo... The roots of this country were founded in it.

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by moestavern19
Bingo... The roots of this country were founded in it.

I disagree. Most largely the roots of our country were founded on the ideas from Ancient Rome, with Ancient Greece being a close second.

[Ender120]

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade
I disagree. Most largely the roots of our country were founded on the ideas from Ancient Rome, with Ancient Greece being a close second.

There's your answer right there.

The Bible is filled with references to the inferiority of women, the advocation of slavery, and the heathen nature of anyone who does not practice Christianity...

Oh. Maybe we are hopelessly religious.

Looking past that, here's a very interesting article, and a very good read:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_2_28/ai_114090210

[MR. MEOWGI]

I don't find America to be that "religious" at all. It's all fluff to mask the greed and desire. They are all too sure...


"The worst of it is that even apparently holy conceptions are consumed along with the rest. It is a terrible breaking and burning of idols, a purification of the sanctuary, so that no graven thing may occupy the place that God has commanded to be left empty: the center, the existential altar which simply "is." In the end the contemplative suffers the anguish of realizing that he no longer knows what God is."
~ Thomas Merton

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by Ender120
There's your answer right there.

The Bible is filled with references to the inferiority of women, the advocation of slavery, and the heathen nature of anyone who does not practice Christianity...

Oh. Maybe we are hopelessly religious.

Looking past that, here's a very interesting article, and a very good read:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_2_28/ai_114090210

Thanks for the article. That sounds like what I was talking about in a precious post. Is that the one you meant to quote?

Otherwise I'm not sure how the article relates to our nation being founded primarily on ideas about a Republic and Democracy from ancient Rome and Greece.

[Rocket River]

America's God is Money

Rocket River

[ima_drummer2k]

Originally posted by Rocket River
QUESTION: Why does being less religious seem to take an air of 'More enlightened'?
Good question. I've always wondered this too.

I once dated a girl that didn't believe in God. She used to accuse those who did believe in God of being 'close-minded'. I never understood this. If you believe in something, you're close-minded but if you don't believe in something, you're open-minded? :confused:

Seems like the opposite would be true.

[Ender120]

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade
Thanks for the article. That sounds like what I was talking about in a precious post. Is that the one you meant to quote?

Otherwise I'm not sure how the article relates to our nation being founded primarily on ideas about a Republic and Democracy from ancient Rome and Greece.

Sounds like you have a pretty high opinion of your posting skills. ;)

And no, I meant to quote the post I did, mostly to throw in my two cents concerning the basis of American ideals.

Then, to get back on track, I posted the article. And you did say all that stuff earlier, I was just providing an article.

[ZRB]

Probably because of the education system.

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by Ender120
Sounds like you have a pretty high opinion of your posting skills. ;)

And no, I meant to quote the post I did, mostly to throw in my two cents concerning the basis of American ideals.

Then, to get back on track, I posted the article. And you did say all that stuff earlier, I was just providing an article.

I see. I do agree with you that the American publics ideals do come from that religious background. But our form of government comes from Ancient Rome, and Ancient Greece. I was seperating church and state.

As far as my posting skills... Believe me nobody is more in touch with the mediocrity of their posting skills than I am. I just enjoy it a lot, and if it's an interesting thread I sometimes post several times fairly frequently.

This article sounds exactly like what the news story I heard was based on. I'm glad I got it in print, right in front of me this time.

Thanks.

[nyquil82]

I think the religion goes along with the fortune that we have. Alot of the religious in the country believe that they were pre-determined to be better than others, which explains why they are American. Being great and being religious go hand in hand, they justify each other. Why else do people thank God when they win an emmy or when they do well in athletic competitions?

[MR. MEOWGI]

Originally posted by ima_drummer2k
Good question. I've always wondered this too.

I once dated a girl that didn't believe in God. She used to accuse those who did believe in God of being 'close-minded'. I never understood this. If you believe in something, you're close-minded but if you don't believe in something, you're open-minded? :confused:

Seems like the opposite would be true.

I think one is close minded when they do not question their beliefs. People often don't truly understand their own "beliefs" that they cling to as truth. That is close-mindedness.

"When we cling so tightly to what we take to be true, we are not open to truth. Guarding knowledge is not a good way to find understanding. Understanding means a willingness to throw away our knowledge. You must be willing to let go of your views and your knowledge in order to transcend them and reach understanding."
~ Thich Nhat Hanh

"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason."
~ Buddha

[ima_drummer2k]

Originally posted by MR. MEOWGI
I think one is close minded when they do not question their beliefs. People often don't truly understand their own "beliefs" that they cling to as truth. That is close-mindedness.
So if someone believes without question that there is no God, is that being open minded or close minded?

Look, I don't mean to imply that those who don't believe in God are close-minded. I don't begrudge anyone their right to have their own belief system. All I'm saying is that calling someone close-minded because they believe in something is.....well, close minded IMO.

[Ender120]

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade
As far as my posting skills... Believe me nobody is more in touch with the mediocrity of their posting skills than I am. I just enjoy it a lot, and if it's an interesting thread I sometimes post several times fairly frequently.

I wasn't criticizing your posts or anything.

I was just having some fun with you for using the word "precious" to describe your post (I'm assuming you meant 'previous').

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade
Thanks for the article. That sounds like what I was talking about in a precious post. Is that the one you meant to quote?

[GreenVegan76]

People here live in fear.

[Ender120]

Originally posted by ima_drummer2k
So if someone believes without question that there is no God, is that being open minded or close minded?

Look, I don't mean to imply that those who don't believe in God are close-minded. I don't begrudge anyone their right to have their own belief system. All I'm saying is that calling someone close-minded because they believe in something is.....well, close minded IMO.

I don't think it's an issue of "You're close-minded because you believe in God", but instead an issue of "You're close-minded because your belief in God causes you to not be as tolerant or open as some."

[Isabel]

Perhaps it has to do with the fact that we were founded as a place where people could come and worship as they chose. Back then, many countries didn't give you the option of following religions (or even Christian denominations) other than their chosen one. Some countries still don't. Now, if religion isn't that important to you, or if you don't care which one you've got, you'll just go along with it. Those who were passionate about their beliefs came here in order to practice them, and the tradition has been handed down.

(there... I did it... objective answer, at least above) Whatever the case, though, I'm glad we take that stand in this country. Too many people these days exclude the possibility that there might be a God or that this God just might care what we do.

[MR. MEOWGI]

Originally posted by Isabel
Too many people these days exclude the possibility that there might be a God or that this God just might care what we do.

I think too many people think they know what "god" wants and feel the need to enforce those beliefs thought violent, forcefull methods.

There are many very religious people who don't believe in the Judeo / Christian god btw...

[arno_ed]

Originally posted by ima_drummer2k
So if someone believes without question that there is no God, is that being open minded or close minded?

Look, I don't mean to imply that those who don't believe in God are close-minded. I don't begrudge anyone their right to have their own belief system. All I'm saying is that calling someone close-minded because they believe in something is.....well, close minded IMO.
i think if you believe or not has nothing to do with being close or open minded. If you respect the other religion, watever that religion is, or his lack of religion you are openminded. Alot of people i know do not respect that other people believe different things than they do.

I respect EVERY religion. and i hope every person is happy with his religion, and life. I'm not religious, i expect from others to respect that, aswel as i respect them.

So basically i do not think that it depends on your religion, or lack of it, if you are open minded. Just how you deal with people with other religions

[4chuckie]

Morals/values does not always equate to a religion

[RocketMan Tex]

Originally posted by ima_drummer2k
Speak for yourself!

I'm only conservative when it comes to politics...

:D

I was waiting for somebody to take my bait!

http://www.tahoesbest.com/Fishing/images/blue_ribbon/gene2fish-top.jpg

Fish On!

[nyquil82]

This has been the monthly line for the church that I pass by on the way to school.
"Faith is what you believe in, not in what you see."

And that pretty much summed it up for me.

[Lil Pun]

I am against religion but I am not against those who want to be religious. If you want to be religious that's fine but don't and I repeat don't tell me that I am wrong because you just push me further away from religion and make me dislike it even more than I already do.


It's like I said religion is one of the great evils of mankind. It works on fear and anytime you can instill fear in people you can control them. That's pretty much what religion does and it can affect the way people act, think, etc. It's responsible for some of history's greatest travesties and is even responsible for the war going on right now in Iraq.

[Rocket River]

Originally posted by Lil Pun
I am against religion but I am not against those who want to be religious. If you want to be religious that's fine but don't and I repeat don't tell me that I am wrong because you just push me further away from religion and make me dislike it even more than I already do.


It's like I said religion is one of the great evils of mankind. It works on fear and anytime you can instill fear in people you can control them. That's pretty much what religion does and it can affect the way people act, think, etc. It's responsible for some of history's greatest travesties and is even responsible for the war going on right now in Iraq.

Religion is USED to justify things
IMO
not to incite them

Too many Atheist confused the wants and needs on MEN
and their ability to manipulate other men through the
other men's good intentions.. . . . with Religion

This war is about Business and Capitalism
Honestly - More wrong has been done for Capitalism
than any other Religion. . . .. Capitalism is unique becuase
unlike other religions. . . it does not seek credit. . in fact it
defers to the 'traditional' religions

Rocket River

[Lil Pun]

But the root of this war can be traced back to religion. Islamic extremist attacked the U.S. because they though that is what their religion told them to do. Those attacks on the U.S. led to the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq.

[Lil Pun]

Too many Atheist confused the wants and needs on MEN
and their ability to manipulate other men through the
other men's good intentions.. . . . with Religion

I'm not sure I understand this statement please explain further.


BTW, I'm not an atheist.

[Sishir Chang]

I think it has to do with our size, insularity and history.

I haven't seen polling on this but I bet if you polled urban residents you would find our attitudes not much different than Euros but if you polled rural and suburban residents things would be differently. We are closer to our agrarian roots which tend to be more religious than Europe.

Unlike Europe we haven't had any wars over religion. If we had several civil wars between the faithful and the heretics I bet we probably wouldn't be embracing religion so much.

[Lil Pun]

Originally posted by Rocket River
Religion is USED to justify things
IMO
not to incite them



In my opinion religion is used to both justify and incite things and not one or the other.

[pirc1]

There could be a god out there, but it is very hard for me to accept that the current regligions represent him. It seems that many of the religous leaders over the history have following the doctrine "do as I say but not do as I do". If the God is truely almighty how can he let this happen?? For the Christians I have this question. If I live a good life and do not kill, steal, ect, but I do not believe in the Christian god, what happens when I die? ;)

[Trader Dan]

I know this is kind of off-topic but one thing that has been bugging me a little bit is the constant "God bless America!". Just seems a bit egoistic ...

[Isabel]

Whenever this subject comes up, a lot of people bring up the bad things that have been done in the name of religion. There are certain individuals responsible for those things; usually it has to do with using a religious argument to justify their selfish desires. But that's not everyone, and not even most religious people from my experience. What about all of us out there (Christians, Jews, Muslims, any religion) who are trying to do it right?

[ima_drummer2k]

Originally posted by Trader Dan
I know this is kind of off-topic but one thing that has been bugging me a little bit is the constant "God bless America!". Just seems a bit egoistic ...
Why?

[subtomic]

Originally posted by Isabel
Whenever this subject comes up, a lot of people bring up the bad things that have been done in the name of religion. There are certain individuals responsible for those things; usually it has to do with using a religious argument to justify their selfish desires.

Well, these certain individuals don't operate totally on their own - they usually have a large population willing to go along with their perversions of religion. And when someone tells you "God will punish you if you don't do (X)," that's a powerful motivator that is very difficult to counteract unless people have a little more skepticism toward religion. But religion rarely allows for skepticism, even when it contradicts itself.

So while humans are the ultimate source of evil, religion unfortunately is the most powerful and most used justification for evil and intolerance. Many of us are therefore wary of those who accept their religion unconditionally, because of the potential for the havoc it can create.

[MR. MEOWGI]

Originally posted by ima_drummer2k
Why?

It assumes too much.

"God" is not a commodity. The words "In God We Trust" were not consistently on all U.S. currency until 1956, during the McCarthy witch hunts.

Plus it just shows how the Christian thought dominates this Country. When you truly learn about other religions (which all people should), and maybe even become a part of them, you see all of this in a completely different light. The fusion of gods and presidents who start unnecessary wars to try and remold other parts of the world to be like theirs very frightening.

If anything, the "dominating" religion of this nation should've been the earth-based, non-dogmatic spirituality of the Native Americans. But thats a whole other discussion. :)

Buddha Bless America.

[Trader Dan]

Why?

I'm not sure what blessing is really all about but if it is anything near what I think it is I think when you ask God about blessing, why not have him bless everything or at least the people who need it the most? I guess it shows what you care about in some way. Of course it's not wrong to care about america, but to only care about america?

(I have got to learn how to do proper quotes one of these days)

[ima_drummer2k]

Originally posted by Trader Dan
I'm not sure what blessing is really all about but if it is anything near what I think it is I think when you ask God about blessing, why not have him bless everything or at least the people who need it the most? I guess it shows what you care about in some way. Of course it's not wrong to care about america, but to only care about america?
I'm not sure I understand the logic. When you tell your wife you love her, does that mean you don't love your kids too? I mean, you didn't say it. What about the rest of your family and friends? You didn't say you loved them either. Does that mean you don't?

[JayZ750]

Originally posted by MR. MEOWGI
If anything, the "dominating" religion of this nation should've been the earth-based, non-dogmatic spirituality of the Native Americans. But thats a whole other discussion. :)


Preach on brother!

Originally posted by Rocket River
QUESTION: Why does being less religious seem to take an air of 'More enlightened'?


I don't see this at all. Is it out there, of course. But America is soo soo soo much more of a "if you're not religious there is something wrong with you" feel than the opposite.

[MR. MEOWGI]

The US & Religion . . . God Bless America.

The Root of War Is Fear - by Thomas Merton

In 1961 the American Trappist monk Thomas Merton entered the struggle against war with his essay “The Root of War Is Fear.” Read in the context of today’s conflict with Iraq, the essay seems prophetic, haunting and insightful. Crossroads Publishing Company and The Thomas Merton Foundation are making available excerpts from that essay so that readers today can consider Merton’s point that the wellsprings of war lie within each person as much as with a particular political situation.

By THOMAS MERTON

The present war crisis is something we have made entirely for and by ourselves. There is in reality not the slightest logical reason for war, and yet the whole world is plunging headlong into frightful destruction, and doing so with the purpose of avoiding war and preserving peace! This is a true war-madness, an illness of the mind and the spirit that is spreading with a furious and subtle contagion all over the world. Of all the countries that are sick, America is perhaps the most grievously afflicted. This is a nation that claims to be fighting for religious truth along with freedom and other values of the spirit. Truly we have entered the “post-Christian era” with a vengeance.

What is the place of the Christian in all this? Is he simply to fold his hands and resign himself to the worst, accepting it as the inescapable will of God and preparing himself to enter heaven with a sigh of relief? Should he open up the Apocalypse and run out into the street to give everyone his idea of what is happening? Or worse still, join in the madness of the war makers, calculating how by a “first strike,” the glorious Christian West can eliminate atheistic Communism for all time and usher in the millennium?

What are we to do? The duty of the Christian in this crisis is to strive with all his power and intelligence, with his faith, hope in Christ and love for God and man, to do the one task that God has imposed upon us in the world today. That task is to work for the total abolition of war. There can be no question that unless war is abolished the world will remain constantly in a state of madness and desperation in which, because of the immense destructive power of modern weapons, the danger of catastrophe will be imminent and probably at every moment everywhere. We may never succeed in this campaign but whether we succeed or not the duty is evident. It is the great Christian task of our time. Everything else is secondary, for the survival of the human race itself depends on it. We must at least face this responsibility and do something about it. And the first job of all is to understand the psychological forces at work in ourselves and in society.

At the root of all war is fear, not so much the fear men have of one another as the fear they have of everything. It is not merely that they do not trust one another: They do not even trust themselves. … They cannot trust anything because they have ceased to believe in God.

It is not only our hatred of others that is dangerous but also and above all our hatred of ourselves: particularly that hatred of ourselves which is too deep and too powerful to be consciously faced. For it is this that makes us see our own evil in others and unable to see it in ourselves. …

As if this were not enough, we make the situation much worse by artificially intensifying our sense of evil, and by increasing our propensity to feel guilt even for things that are not in themselves wrong. In all these ways, we build up such an obsession with evil, both in ourselves and in others, that we waste all our mental energy trying to account for this evil, to punish it, to exorcise it, or to get rid of it in any way we can.

We drive ourselves mad with our preoccupation and in the end there is no outlet left but violence. We have to destroy something or someone. By that time, we have created for ourselves a suitable enemy, a scapegoat in whom we have invested all the evil in the world. He is the cause of every wrong. He is the fomenter of all conflict. If he can only be destroyed, conflict will cease, evil will be done with, there will be no more war. …

In our refusal to accept the partially good intentions of others and work with them (of course prudently and with resignation to the inevitable imperfection of the result) we are unconsciously proclaiming our own malice, our own intolerance, our own lack of realism, our own ethical and political quackery.

Perhaps in the end the first real step toward peace would be a realistic acceptance of the fact that our political deals are perhaps to a great extent illusions and fictions to which we cling, out of motives that are not always perfectly honest: that because of this we prevent ourselves from seeing any good or any practicability in the political ideas of our enemies -- which may of course be in many ways even more illusory and dishonest than our own. We will never get anywhere unless we can accept the fact that politics is an inextricable tangle of good and evil motives in which, perhaps, the evil predominate but where one must continue to hope doggedly in what little good can still be found. …

I believe the basis for valid political action can only be the recognition that the true solution to our problems is not accessible to any one isolated party or nation but that all must arrive at it by working together. …

We must try to accept ourselves whether individually or collectively, not only as perfectly good or perfectly bad, but in our mysterious, unaccountable mixture of good and evil. We have to stand by the modicum of good that is in us without exaggerating it. We have to defend our real rights, because unless we respect our own rights we will certainly not respect the rights of others. But at the same time we have to recognize that we have willfully or otherwise trespassed on the rights of others. We must be able to admit this not only as the result of self-examination, but when it is pointed out unexpectedly, and perhaps not too gently, by somebody else.

These principles that govern personal moral conduct, that make harmony possible in small social units like the family, also apply in the wider areas of the state and in the whole community of nations. It is however quite absurd, in our present situation or in any other, to expect these principles to be universally accepted as the result of moral exhortations. There is very little hope that the world will be run according to them all of a sudden, as a result of some hypothetical change of heart on the part of politicians. It is useless and even laughable to base political thought on the faint hope of a purely contingent and subjective moral illumination in the hearts of the world’s leaders. But outside of political thought and action, in the religious sphere, it is not only permissible to hope for such a mysterious consummation, but it is necessary to pray for it. We can and must believe not so much that the mysterious light of God can “convert” the ones who are mostly responsible for the world’s peace, but at least that they may, in spite of their obstinacy and their prejudices, be guarded against fatal error. …

For only love -- which means humility -- can exorcise the fear that is at the root of all war…

If men really wanted peace they would sincerely ask God for it and He would give it to them. But why should He give the world a peace it does not really desire? The peace the world pretends to desire is really no peace at all.

To some men peace merely means the liberty to exploit other people without fear of retaliation or interference. To others peace means the freedom to rob brothers without interruption. To still others it means the leisure to devour the goods of the earth without being compelled to interrupt their pleasures to feed those whom their greed is starving. And to practically everybody, peace simply means the absence of any physical violence that might cast a shadow over lives devoted to the satisfaction of their animal appetites for comfort and pleasure.

Many men like these have asked God for what they thought was “peace” and wondered why their prayer was not answered. They could not understand that it actually was answered. God left them with what they desired, for their idea of peace was only another form of war. …

So instead of loving what you think is peace, love other men and love God above all. And instead of hating the people you think are warmongers, hate the appetites and the disorder in your own soul, which are the causes of war. If you love peace, then hate injustice, hate tyranny, hate greed -- but hate these things in yourself not in another.

[SpaceCity]

Originally posted by DaDakota
It has nothing to do with religion, people voted because they fear terrorism and think that GW will be more dilligent about it.

DD

I would have to whole-heartedly disagree with you on this.

It was the religious right that motivated and showed up in record numbers while only 1 out of every 10 18-24 year old showed up.

This election had very little to do with politics and everything to do woth morals.

[Deckard]

Originally posted by arno_ed
i think if you believe or not has nothing to do with being close or open minded. If you respect the other religion, watever that religion is, or his lack of religion you are openminded. Alot of people i know do not respect that other people believe different things than they do.

I respect EVERY religion. and i hope every person is happy with his religion, and life. I'm not religious, i expect from others to respect that, aswel as i respect them.

So basically i do not think that it depends on your religion, or lack of it, if you are open minded. Just how you deal with people with other religions
arno_ed, if I didn't know better, I would suspect that you're Dutch!



;)



Keep D&D Civil!!

[Mulder]

Originally posted by GreenVegan76
People here live in fear.

Absolutely, and mostly about stuff they shouldn't be worried about.

[Chump]

"You can't reason a man out of something he wasn't reasoned into" -- Jonathan Swift

[robbie380]

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade
And by developed countries it doesn't just mean Europe. We are also talking about Canada, Japan, etc.

well japan is a pretty religious place

[Sishir Chang]

The problem with religion is that by its very nature it is irrational. The Democrats ran a campaign based primarily on rational issues ie. the war on Iraq was based on a WMD threat from Saddam and since none were found the war was a mistake. While the Republicans ran on faith, for instance even though no WMD were found we believe that Saddam would become a threat and we have to trust that the President is doing the right thing.

On the same line as the rational party, as opposed to the faith party, I'm surprised that the Democrats haven't tried to use the Bible to their own advantage. I was talking to a Dem. candidate running for State Rep in a rural district who also was a Lutheran minister. He gave the typical Dem. line regarding education, health care, rural poverty and so on. What he didn't talk about was his faith and religion even though he said his district was overwhelmingly Christian conservative. I advised him that as a minister he should've been taking the lead on using the Bible to make his case. He should've pointed out that Jesus preached against inequality of wealth, tended to the poor and sick and urged peace. Jesus both in Roman times and even now is a radical leftist and if Dems want to win in the rural conservative areas they need to emphasize that.

[rubytuesday]

first of all, i'm surprised that 5 % of america doesn't not believe in god or some universal being. am i really in the mere 5% minority? or going back to that other thread abt never being polled, does that come in? b/c no one's ever asked me where my stand was.

as for the elections, i don't understand how people can vote for a president that was deceitful and lied to the american citizens about his motive for going into war. he even admitted that he used 9/11 as a motive to start a war with Iraq. we wouldn't be in this mess if he didn't declare this war against the wishes of all other countries (cept GB) in this world.

isn't it ironic that while clinton was in the midst of his scandals, talks of his impeachment came up? did he do anything to harm the citizens? he lied to his family.

as for bush, he admitted lying to us and never once did impeachment come up. over 1000 innocent soldiers have died due to his lie and people had the audacity to trust him and elect him again? i'm apalled. do you want 1000 more to die?

sorry if i got off tangent, but i've got more. this'll due for now.

[nyquil82]

nothing implied here, just found it very entertaining.



Man Survives Jump Into Lion's Den
46-Year-Old Reportedly Trying To Convert Lions To Christianity

POSTED: 3:27 pm EST November 3, 2004
UPDATED: 4:59 pm EST November 3, 2004
A man was attacked and injured after jumping into a lion's den at the Taipei Zoo and trying to convert the lions to Christianity.

# The 46-year-old man leaped into the den of African lions and shouted "Jesus will save you," according to the report. He also said, "Come bite me" before one of the male lions attacked and bit the man.
Video showed the lion ripping a jacket off the man at the zoo in Taiwan's capital, clawing him and then biting the man in the leg.

Zoo workers were able to drive off the lion with water hoses and tranquilizer guns.

The lions were fed earlier in the day otherwise the man might have been more seriously injured or killed.

Watch Local 6 News for more on this story.

Copyright 2004 by Internet Broadcasting Systems and Local6.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

mr. link http://www.local6.com/news/3887764/detail.html#sillyman

[Supermac34]

This country took the stand the government would not get in the way of your religion or endorse any one religion. That lead to more religious people populating this nation for the freedom to practice it.

It is the freedom to practice your religion safely that has led to a more religious nation. Our country was founded with this in mind and we've never had our government tell us to worship here, or be this kind of Christian, or stop building churches...or whatever, so religion has flourished.

In much of Europe, the history has had violence or depression of religion of one religion over another, or one type over another in its history. We haven't had that in this country.

[mr_gootan]

Originally posted by pirc1
There could be a god out there, but it is very hard for me to accept that the current regligions represent him. It seems that many of the religous leaders over the history have following the doctrine "do as I say but not do as I do". If the God is truely almighty how can he let this happen?? For the Christians I have this question. If I live a good life and do not kill, steal, ect, but I do not believe in the Christian god, what happens when I die? ;)

Your flawed premise is that you think you can define morality. You may live a "good" life by your standards but have failed to live a good life by the christian God's standards. The bible says that once you die, your self-defined "good" actions will be judged by the standards of the God of the bible, whether you believe in Him or not. Good luck with that.

[pirc1]

So I am guessing all the people in countries that are not practicing Christianity are doomed to Hell, thanks for clearing that up for me.

:rolleyes:

[ArtV]

Originally posted by pirc1
So I am guessing all the people in countries that are not practicing Christianity are doomed to Hell, thanks for clearing that up for me.

:rolleyes:

No - Just those people trying to get to heaven by their own means or ways.

[thadeus]

I fully expect to suffer the post-mortem plunge into some subterranean Hieronymous Bosch theme park where I will then spend the remainder of eternity sizzling on a massive George Foreman Grill®.


....but I have no fear, for I will be lean and DELICIOUS.



FUNDYMENTALISM SANDWICH.

[MR. MEOWGI]

Originally posted by ArtV
No - Just those people trying to get to heaven by their own means or ways.

People should stop trying to "get" to heaven. Instead we should practice to make ourselves ready for the kingdom so that it can manifest in the here and the now. You don't need to die in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. In fact, you have to be truly alive. There is nothing supernatural about it. :)

[pirc1]

I never said I was trying to get to heaven by my own method. Just because I am not a Christian does not mean I have no moral values, many of which have been around for as long as there are humans. But from what you are saying, only Christians have the right moral values from the bible, is that correct? So if I never read the bible I am pretty much doomed?

Mark

[MR. MEOWGI]

Originally posted by pirc1
I never said I was trying to get to heaven by my own method. Just because I am not a Christian does not mean I have no moral values, many of which have been around for as long as there are humans. But from what you are saying, only Christians have the right moral values from the bible, is that correct? So if I never read the bible I am pretty much doomed?

Mark

Just stop believing in an eternal soul, live for true happiness for you and all, and you will be fine. :D

http://www.buddhanet.net/nutshell07.htm

[ArtV]

Originally posted by pirc1
I never said I was trying to get to heaven by my own method. Just because I am not a Christian does not mean I have no moral values, many of which have been around for as long as there are humans. But from what you are saying, only Christians have the right moral values from the bible, is that correct? So if I never read the bible I am pretty much doomed?

Mark

Morals have nothing to do with getting to heaven. Morals are like works - you need a law to tell you what is right and what is wrong. Youd don't need to read the bible to know right from wrong, though He did put a very though collection of laws in there. But the law is like a test for cancer - it will tell you if you have a problem but it will never cure you. If you've ever failed the test, and we all have, you have a deadly disease. No matter how many apples you've eaten (good works), no matter how good you feel, the disease is still there. There is only 1 cure and it cost God his only Son to cure us - a free gift - only you have to accept the gift and believe. If you've ever seen The Passion, ask yourself, if that is God's Son, why would he allow that? Only if there was no other way. If He was only a prophet, why did he claim to be equal to God? If He was a lunatic, how could he heal so many people and do things only God could do?

The question is - Is Jesus Lord, Liar or Lunatic?

These aren't my rules, they're His and if there could have been another way, Jesus would have never had to been put through that. My salvation lies in Him and Him alone.

[GreenVegan76]

People have a hard time letting go of their suffering. Out of a fear of the unknown, they prefer suffering that is familiar.

--Thich Nhat Hanh

[MR. MEOWGI]

Originally posted by ArtV
My salvation lies in Him and Him alone.

Good for you. Just take note that others lie on different paths.

Sorry pal, but your religion does not have a monopoly on salvation or heaven. :p

The question is - Is Jesus Lord, Liar or Lunatic?

He talked in metaphors. Your question is irrelevant.

[GreenVegan76]

I didn't realize God was so vain and that His love was conditional.

[pirc1]

My point exactly. If god only cares for people who believes in him, from what I read Jesus is not like that by the way, I don't think is a truely a benevolent god.

Mark

[Rashmon]

"Just remember there's a big difference between kneeling down and bending over."

Frank Zappa

Dumb All Over (http://www.lyricsfreak.com/f/frank-zappa/57039.html)

[arno_ed]

Originally posted by Deckard
arno_ed, if I didn't know better, I would suspect that you're Dutch!
[/B]
:D is it that obvious?:D:D:p

My point exactly. If god only cares for people who believes in him, from what I read Jesus is not like that by the way, I don't think is a truely a benevolent god.
i think that you do not have to have a religion to be a good human. I think that if there is a god he cares for all people(al religion) other wise he isn't the perfect good.
But i'm not religious so what do i know:p

[IROC it]

Originally posted by GreenVegan76
I didn't realize God was so vain and that His love was conditional.

It's called sovereignty... and the fact He sent a way out of sin when we didn't deserve it is the definition of "unconditional."

Salvation is the way in... then He changes us one moment at a time if we make Him our Lord - that is when it gets conditional.

Why would God set the rules for those who already believe, then expect the non-believer to follow them? Believers can only prove their belief by acting on it which = faith. Without faith it is impoosible to please God... in other words, once you've accepted Him, then live by His conditions as best you can... knowing that, should you stumble, He is faithful and just to forgive us of sin.

Any believer that tells you they live a faultless life, has just lied...

Remember, Christianity is to strive to be "Christ-like." It means to always try to better oneself by applying the Bible to your own life...

It's not a monopoly on salvation or heaven, we don't view it as such... it's just that we feel strongly that we've found the only way to reach either.

btw-Science is proving creationist views, and Biblical history all the time... so belief in God can only serve to increase intellect by enlightening a person by it's writings about things yet to be proven, discovered and yet to come to fruition.

Also, "God Bless America" is a humble prayer request, not an ignorant expectancy. Anyone who dares try and tell God what to do has forgotten my first point.

He's sovereign.:eek: Creation & creature should be in AWE of the Creator. And to claim that God "has to love all unconditionally" is true... but He also, while loving the souls of all mankind, has hatred for sin- introduced at the rise of Lucifer's pride=original sin.

If we'd admit it, it's really pride that makes us say "I don't need a savior, I can do it my way."

Self is MUCH more dangerous than Satan.

To answer the thread title: It is (was:( ) one of the country's main reasons for existence... the freedom to practice Christianity without the Anglican church setting all the rules/making church out to be vain kingdom worship.

It's just part of America's fiber.

[giddyup]

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade
I disagree. Most largely the roots of our country were founded on the ideas from Ancient Rome, with Ancient Greece being a close second.
Freedom to worship was the motivation. Ancient republics were the model.

The writings of our founding fathers are riddled with Biblical, Judeo-Christian tenets. Our public buildings are adorned with images from The Bible-- not Caligula's Court!

[Chump]

more of the ridicious claims that creationism is science and the fable that we're a Xian-based nation...no wonder Bush won, people will believe what they want to in face of overwelming evidence to the contrary

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by giddyup
Freedom to worship was the motivation. Ancient republics were the model.

The writings of our founding fathers are riddled with Biblical, Judeo-Christian tenets. Our public buildings are adorned with images from The Bible-- not Caligula's Court!

The motivation was taxation from the British, Quartering British soldiers in Colonists homes, living under the tyrranical rule of the Brits, and not having any say in how they were goverened.

Like most people of the time, including Monarchs that our country was rebelling against, the founding fathers did have religious references in their writings.

[MR. MEOWGI]

Originally posted by IROC it
It's called sovereignty... and the fact He sent a way out of sin when we didn't deserve it is the definition of "unconditional."

Salvation is the way in... then He changes us one moment at a time if we make Him our Lord - that is when it gets conditional.

Why would God set the rules for those who already believe, then expect the non-believer to follow them? Believers can only prove their belief by acting on it which = faith. Without faith it is impoosible to please God... in other words, once you've accepted Him, then live by His conditions as best you can... knowing that, should you stumble, He is faithful and just to forgive us of sin.

Any believer that tells you they live a faultless life, has just lied...

Remember, Christianity is to strive to be "Christ-like." It means to always try to better oneself by applying the Bible to your own life...

It's not a monopoly on salvation or heaven, we don't view it as such... it's just that we feel strongly that we've found the only way to reach either.

Self is MUCH more dangerous than Satan.

Sorry, but you don't know the first thing about self.

This is exactly why people call Christians close minded.

Heaven is here and now. Don't look into the distance. The kingdom of God is really available in the here and now. If we truly understood that we're living in the kingdom of God right now, we would act like it. The problem is we don't.

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by MR. MEOWGI
Sorry, but you don't know the first thing about self.

This is exactly why people call Christians close minded.

Heaven is here and now. Don't look into the distance. The kingdom of God is really available in the here and now. If we truly understood that we're living in the kingdom of God right now, we would act like it. The problem is we don't.

That is almost exactly what Jesus said. He said that the Kingdom of God is within us.

[Sishir Chang]

Originally posted by giddyup
Our public buildings are adorned with images from The Bible-- not Caligula's Court!

I wouldn't call The Goddess of Justice a Biblical image. Anyway most of our major institutions are housed in neo-classical buildings that are based on ancient Rome with imagery directly from their and Greece. Many of them have statuary and sculpture of founding fathers that are done in ancient Roman style.

[Cesar^Geronimo]

actually Jesus didn't say the kingdom of Heaven was here.

He said my kingdom is not of this world

he told the disciples as he was leaving that he was going to prepare a place for them

The Bible clearly says we are foriegners on earth and our true home is elsewhere.

If like Mr. Meowgi you don't believe the Bible then fine but it does clearly say that Heaven is elsewhere

[MR. MEOWGI]

Originally posted by Cesar^Geronimo
actually Jesus didn't say the kingdom of Heaven was here.

He said my kingdom is not of this world

he told the disciples as he was leaving that he was going to prepare a place for them

The Bible clearly says we are foriegners on earth and our true home is elsewhere.

If like Mr. Meowgi you don't believe the Bible then fine but it does clearly say that Heaven is elsewhere

Jesus taught that the Kingdom will never come upon the earth in the manner that men predicted (like a city or country), not that it doesn't exist here and now. It is a kingdom within those born of God: "Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:20-21).

How can the Kingdom of God lie within you, and not be present in this very moment, other than one just not witnessing it? Good News indeed.

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by MR. MEOWGI
Jesus taught that the Kingdom will never come upon the earth in the manner that men predicted (like a city or country), not that it doesn't exist here and now. It is a kingdom within those born of God: "Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:20-21).

How can the Kingdom of God lie within you, and not be present in this very moment, other than one just not witnessing it? Good News indeed.

Meowgi made the same response I was going to. Jesus used the exact words "The Kingdom of God is within you."

If people want to see it otherwise that is up to them. But please don't belittle those that see the words and then say they are what Jesus was talking about.

[JayZ750]

Random interlude, but religious related...

On the Daily Show they were showing Mel Gibson's objection to stem cell research where he says, and I paraphrase: "If you can show me one person who wasn't at one time those stem cells, I'll give you a cigar"...very smug about it.

Then it cuts to Lewis Black who says: "Adam and Eve, Mel! I'll take two cigars!"

Sorry for the interruption, carry on.

[ArtV]

John 7:38
Then Jesus said to them, "I shall be with you a little while longer, and then I go to Him who sent Me. You will seek Me and not find Me, and where I am you cannot come."

John 13:33 - 14:6

Little children, I shall be with you a little while longer. You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, "Where I am going, you cannot come," so now I say to you. ...

Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, where are You going?"

Jesus answered him, "Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward." ...

"Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father's house are many mansions, if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know.

Thomas said to Him, "Lord we do not know where You are going and how can we know the way?"

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

[giddyup]

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade
The motivation was taxation from the British, Quartering British soldiers in Colonists homes, living under the tyrranical rule of the Brits, and not having any say in how they were goverened.

Like most people of the time, including Monarchs that our country was rebelling against, the founding fathers did have religious references in their writings.
The motivation for coming here was freedom from a state-imposed religion. All of those other factors you cited did indeed become factors after arrival here.

Is the religious content of their writing meaningless?

[giddyup]

Originally posted by Sishir Chang
I wouldn't call The Goddess of Justice a Biblical image. Anyway most of our major institutions are housed in neo-classical buildings that are based on ancient Rome with imagery directly from their and Greece. Many of them have statuary and sculpture of founding fathers that are done in ancient Roman style.
Well certainly there is a blending and a combination of artistic imagery. Christian religiious traditions are at the heart of the functioning of our government... or were until activist judges deemed that our ancestors couldn't have meant what they were practicing or saying....

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by giddyup
The motivation for coming here was freedom from a state-imposed religion. All of those other factors you cited did indeed become factors after arrival here.

Is the religious content of their writing meaningless?

I agree with you that freedom to practice religion was large part of why people first came here. But at that time, they weren't thinking on forming a new government that would become the United States of America.

When they did start to organize for that purpose, freedom of religion was one of their concerns along with all of the others I mentioned. While religion was the reason why people came here, it wasn't the driving reason of why the U.S. was formed as an independent nation.

The founding fathers mentioning God or referencing religion is not meaningless, but neither is it unusual to the founding of the U.S. European monarchs also wrote with frequent references to God and religion at that time. It was common. It would certainly be a stretch to say that like most other men the founding fathers wrote using religious references therefor our country was founded with religion being the basis.

I think it was definitely a concern of theirs, but didn't outweigh the desire to govern themselves, eliminate taxation without representation, quartering of soldiers in homes, the tyranny of a foreign monarch etc. Once it was clear they were going to attempt to found a new government the freedom of religion became an aspect that they definitely wanted included. But they didn't use the bible as a model for the new government, and it wasn't the driving force behind creating the new government.

[B-Bob]

Well, to answer the thread topic (and I'm sorry if this has been posted already): the US appears much more religous (sic) because a lot of modern evangelical doctrine has more to do with an old-testament sensibility than a new-testament sensibility.

I really do think the evidence for that is overwhelming, even in this thread and in the discussion above about the coordinates of heaven.

I'm not trying to pass a judgment about it; but the old testament cared about things like homosexuality and enemies and money, whereas Jesus had a message of tolerance, giving, and compassion. But that's just my reading of the good book -- I don't have a mulah to help me on Sundays at the moment, and I don't look to our elected Mulah in Chief for spiritual guidance either.

[Sishir Chang]

Originally posted by giddyup
Well certainly there is a blending and a combination of artistic imagery. Christian religiious traditions are at the heart of the functioning of our government... or were until activist judges deemed that our ancestors couldn't have meant what they were practicing or saying....

Not necessarily.

Modern democracy that we pioneered comes directly from the Enlightenment that rejected a Biblical world view. The idea that Man is endowed with enough rationality to choose their leaders is the opposite of the Biblical view that Man should submit themselves to higher power.

For that matter many of the Founding Fathers weren't even Christian or Christian in the way that we think of Christianity today. They acknowledged a higher power but believed free will was more important than faith.

[RocketMan Tex]

Here is the reason why the US is much more religious as a country than the majority of developed countries.....

Religion is the opiate of the masses, and we have lots more masses than the other developed countries of the world.

[giddyup]

Originally posted by Sishir Chang
They acknowledged a higher power but believed free will was more important than faith.
Faithfulness that is offered freely is still a centerpiece of (even) evangelical Christianity today.

[Cesar^Geronimo]

Wow -- talk about people starting duplicate threads.

I think there are about 4 threads intermingled in here!!!


- Why is the U.S. more religious?
- Where is heaven?
- What caused the initial settelers to come here?
- What symbols are most prevelant on national documents?