Carter Writes To Zell Miller

[gifford1967]

From- www.talkingpointsmemo.com


The text of a letter former President Carter sent to Zell Miller over the weekend ...

You seem to have forgotten that loyal Democrats elected you as mayor and as state senator. Loyal Democrats, including members of my family and me, elected you as lieutenant governor and as governor. It was a loyal Democrat, Lester Maddox, who assigned you to high positions in the state government when you were out of office. It was a loyal Democrat, Roy Barnes, who appointed you as U.S. Senator when you were out of office. By your historically unprecedented disloyalty, you have betrayed our trust.
Great Georgia Democrats who served in the past, including Walter George, Richard Russell, Herman Talmadge, and Sam Nunn disagreed strongly with the policies of Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman, John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, and me, but they remained loyal to the party in which they gained their public office. Other Democrats, because of philosophical differences or the race issue, like Bo Callaway and Strom Thurmond, at least had the decency to become Republicans.

Everyone knows that you were chosen to speak at the Republican Convention because of your being a “Democrat,” and it’s quite possible that your rabid and mean-spirited speech damaged our party and paid the Republicans some transient dividends.

Perhaps more troublesome of all is seeing you adopt an established and very effective Republican campaign technique of destroying the character of opponents by wild and false allegations. The Bush campaign’s personal attacks on the character of John McCain in South Carolina in 2000 was a vivid example. The claim that war hero Max Cleland was a disloyal American and an ally of Osama bin Laden should have given you pause, but you have joined in this ploy by your bizarre claims that another war hero, John Kerry, would not defend the security of our nation except with spitballs. (This is the same man whom you described previously as “one of this nation's authentic heroes, one of this party's best-known and greatest leaders -- and a good friend.")

I, myself, never claimed to have been a war hero, but I served in the navy from 1942 to 1953, and, as president, greatly strengthened our military forces and protected our nation and its interests in every way. I don’t believe this warrants your referring to me as a pacificist.

Zell, I have known you for forty-two years and have, in the past, respected you as a trustworthy political leader and a personal friend. But now, there are many of us loyal Democrats who feel uncomfortable in seeing that you have chosen the rich over the poor, unilateral preemptive war over a strong nation united with others for peace, lies and obfuscation over the truth, and the political technique of personal character assassination as a way to win elections or to garner a few moments of applause. These are not the characteristics of great Democrats whose legacy you and I have inherited.

I contacted President Carter's office for comment and his press spokesperson Deanna Congileo told me that the letter was a private communication and that President Carter would not be issuing further comment.

-- Josh Marshall

[RocketMan Tex]

Countdown until bamaslammer chimes in with a myopic diatribe against Jimmy Carter.......

[Rockets2K]

Originally posted by RocketMan Tex
Countdown until bamaslammer chimes in with a myopic diatribe against Jimmy Carter.......

funnny!

I was just thinking the same thing. :D

cheers Tex

[MadMax]

I really like Jimmy Carter. But I suppose I have a problem with the use of the phrase, "loyal democrat" like 50 times in that letter. This goes back to the team sports concept behind politics that I dislike more and more. We're never allowed to think for ourselves...to support the other side, even if we believe they're right, because we have a capital D or R by our name. I think that's a problem. I'm not defending Zell's stance here, because I don't think I agree with him...but I am defending the right of any politician to say, "you know what...i think my party got this one wrong...i agree with the other guys." I think if more people did that, I'd have a lot more respect for politicians, in general. Certainly we all laud McCain for it.

[Cohen]

I've got a little more respect for Carter after reading that letter.

[bamaslammer]

Originally posted by RocketMan Tex
Countdown until bamaslammer chimes in with a myopic diatribe against Jimmy Carter.......
How is pointing out the record of the second worst president in recent times myopic? It's just a recititation of facts. I've got to agree with MadMax that why should being a "loyal" member of any party mean you have to goosestep alongside them when you disagree with them? I thought independence in politicians, most notably McCain, was loved by the left! Oh, that's right, I forgot. Republican who fights against his brethern, that is courageous. Democrat who fights against his brethern, he's a turncoat and he's "angry" and seething with rage.
Sure.....right. :rolleyes:
myopic adjective

1 unwilling or unable to think about the future results of your actions: the government's myopic refusal to take environmental issues seriously

2 technical unable to see things clearly that are faraway; shortsighted (1)
— myopically adverb

[Cohen]

Originally posted by MadMax
I really like Jimmy Carter. But I suppose I have a problem with the use of the phrase, "loyal democrat" like 50 times in that letter. This goes back to the team sports concept behind politics that I dislike more and more. We're never allowed to think for ourselves...to support the other side, even if we believe they're right, because we have a capital D or R by our name. I think that's a problem. I'm not defending Zell's stance here, because I don't think I agree with him...but I am defending the right of any politician to say, "you know what...i think my party got this one wrong...i agree with the other guys." I think if more people did that, I'd have a lot more respect for politicians, in general. Certainly we all laud McCain for it.


I understand your point because I felt a twinge of that while reading it also. But I wonder how the article would have read if Miller's attack had not included character assassination (which, I might add, is NOT restricted to the Republican Party as Carter elludes to).

I like to see Carter finally showing some backbone though.

[SpaceCity]

Originally posted by MadMax
I really like Jimmy Carter. But I suppose I have a problem with the use of the phrase, "loyal democrat" like 50 times in that letter. This goes back to the team sports concept behind politics that I dislike more and more. We're never allowed to think for ourselves...to support the other side, even if we believe they're right, because we have a capital D or R by our name. I think that's a problem. I'm not defending Zell's stance here, because I don't think I agree with him...but I am defending the right of any politician to say, "you know what...i think my party got this one wrong...i agree with the other guys." I think if more people did that, I'd have a lot more respect for politicians, in general. Certainly we all laud McCain for it.


Oh come on Max! McCain is so loyal to his party that he glady bends over for the man who raped him in 2000. He's loyal to a fault. It's one thing to point out policies that you disagree with. It's another to betray your constituants (sp), the very people who put you in office.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by SpaceCity
Oh come on Max! McCain is so loyal to his party that he glady bends over for the man who raped him in 2000. He's loyal to a fault. It's one thing to point out policies that you disagree with. It's another to betray your constituants (sp), the very people who put you in office.

ok...forget mccain. forget i mentioned him.

i still don't think we should create a political environment that more closely resembles rabid team sports than a place for honest debate and discourse. where the label we wear means we have to shed our own mind and integrity to keep wearing it.

[SpaceCity]

Originally posted by MadMax
ok...forget mccain. forget i mentioned him.

i still don't think we should create a political environment that more closely resembles rabid team sports than a place for honest debate and discourse. where the label we wear means we have to shed our own mind and integrity to keep wearing it.

Agreed.

But that's what having a valid third party is good for. If you don't agree with your party then leave and become an Independant, or join another party.

I'd like to think that having a valid 3rd party would keep the other 2 in check.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by SpaceCity
Agreed.

But that's what having a valid third party is good for. If you don't agree with your party then leave and become an Independant, or join another party.

I'd like to think that having a valid 3rd party would keep the other 2 in check.

i disagree. what if the 3rd party isn't the side you're agreeing with on a particular issue? what if the "other" party...the "opposite party" endorses a position that you support? Do you just pretend that isn't the case?

the idea that you can't vote your vote your conscience because the "other guys" support it, too, is troublesome to me.

[Trader_Jorge]

Originally posted by MadMax
But I suppose I have a problem

I think that's a problem.

I'm not defending Zell's stance here,

because I don't think I agree with him...

I think if more people did that, I'd have a lot more respect for politicians, in general.

Take a stand on something. This is a bunch of waffling. A 'bowl of mush' for lack of a better word.

[MadMax]

edit...delete

forget it.

[MadMax]

edit...delete.

forget it.

[Oski2005]

McCain would never speak at the DNC, he doesn't vote 99% Dem on the issues. The reason Democrats like McCain is that he has honor, intergrity, and class. These are the things that we see lacking in Bush and other prominent Repubs.

[giddyup]

Originally written by Jimmy Carter
But now, there are many of us loyal Democrats who feel uncomfortable in seeing that you have chosen the rich over the poor, ....
Sure glad ahe didn't go with that Two Americas stuff.... :D

[Deckard]

Originally posted by Oski2005
McCain would never speak at the DNC, he doesn't vote 99% Dem on the issues. The reason Democrats like McCain is that he has honor, intergrity, and class. These are the things that we see lacking in Bush and other prominent Repubs.
And those are the things we see lacking in Zell Miller.

For those of you bothered by the "party" labels, remember this. John McCain is supporting Bush in large measure because he is a loyal Republican. McCain would understand perfectly well what Carter was pointing out.

And the idea that being an ardent and loyal member of a political party in this country is somehow "wrong" bothers me a great deal. There is plenty of room for differences in the Democratic Party. A lot more room than the Republican Party, which is a weakness in Democrats. Republicans, despite being smaller, percentage-wise, than the Democratic Party for decades, have, in no small part, had success in elections because of the loyalty to the party by it's members. If Democrats were half as loyal, they wouldn't be in the fix they are in today.

And another thing, for those of you who find party loyalty somehow offensive... this is a democracy. It's OK to belong to a party and it's OK to support it's principals if they mirror your own. The reason Carter is so upset is obvious. He spelled it out very well in his letter. The difference between Miller and some "average joe" on the streets is that Miller is a United States Senator. He styles himself a Democrat, but what he did at the convention was a betrayal of his party, which time and again helped his political career. If he believes what he expressed at the Republican convention, and I think he molded his speech to fit what was wanted of him by Rove and company, but if he really believes that, he should do the honorable thing and declare that he is a Republican, not go around pretending to be a Democrat for the advantage of the Republican Party. I think Carter, in this case, was "letter perfect."

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by giddyup
Sure glad ahe didn't go with that Two Americas stuff.... :D

http://www.leanleft.com/images/midtax.gif

Well since the Bush tax cuts help the rich over the poor or middle class, and Zell is siding with Bush, Carter makes a good point.

[bamaslammer]

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade
http://www.leanleft.com/images/midtax.gif

Well since the Bush tax cuts help the rich over the poor or middle class, and Zell is siding with Bush, Carter makes a good point.
But is it equitable for that "evil" top 20 percent you Bolsheviks tar and feather on a regular basis to pay more than 60 percent of the tax bill?
It's immoral and confiscatory. It is voter-inspired, legal theft for the purposes of wasteful redistribution.

[Deckard]

Originally posted by bamaslammer
But is it equitable for that "evil" top 20 percent you Bolsheviks tar and feather on a regular basis to pay more than 60 percent of the tax bill?
It's immoral and confiscatory. It is voter-inspired, legal theft for the purposes of wasteful redistribution.
Bama, why should anyone pay the least attention to what you say when you call someone who disagrees with you a "Bolshevik?" Not only call him/her a Bolshevik, but lump them into a group... "you Bolsheviks", as if there is any such group here.

[ima_drummer2k]

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade
http://www.leanleft.com/images/midtax.gif

Wow, that's interesting. I didn't know the top 20% paid that much in taxes. I also didn't realize that Bush's tax cuts only reduced their burden by less than 1%. The way some people talk about it, you would think it was reduced by a lot more.

[bamaslammer]

Originally posted by Deckard
Bama, why should anyone pay the least attention to what you say when you call someone who disagrees with you a "Bolshevik?" Not only call him/her a Bolshevik, but lump them into a group... "you Bolsheviks", as if there is any such group here.
Anyone who has no problem with one segment of our society paying over 60 percent of the tax burden is either a Marxist or pretty damned close to it. I'm sorry, but it reminds me of a quote from Adam Sandler's skit "Sex or Weightlifting:"
Barry Lincoln- That man is either gay himself or....not..... straight.
I just don't understand why anyone would take glee in the fact that one group shoulders 60 percent of the bill. I just don't get it.

[Sishir Chang]

Its a free country so Jimmy Carter can criticize Miller for being disloyal but at the same time Miller should be able to break from the party line. I have no problem philosophically with Miller breaking party ranks and supporting GW Bush, frankly I thought he gave a good speech that was fitting for a political convention. What I do have a problem with is his hypocrisy about taking Kerry to task over defense cuts when he voted the same on the same bills. So you've changed your mind fine but don't go around claiming that "you didn't leave the party the party left you" when your own record shows you went along with the party over the very issues you now criticize them for.

[HAYJON02]

Where's MacBeth been at? He wasn't ever really a poo flinger, just good at making people wrong, master debater if you will. It's too bad, what with all the gold material floating around these days.

Zell Miller is insane. Cmon, he had a melt-down on TV! Did he not take his old man crazy pills? But seriously, I hate people that old and out of touch with the modern world, that they would challenge another man to a duel. Go buy a Three Musketeers and imagine yourself as the guy on the wrapper. But wait, didn't they wear blue? Yeah, that wont happen any time soon. He's red with anger at the very least. Someone with that frame of mind is not a stable person and shouldn't be contributing to our government.

I love the elderly, but when you're so set in your ways, how can you be expected to adapt to a changing world? (Although it's not changing as much as some people want us to think *coughso-were-scared-enough-to-vote-for-themcough*. As long as the United States of America exists, and it will in my lifetime bc we're just too powerful, I know it is a hundred billion to one shot that I will be affected by terrorism anyplace but the airport, where I'll have to do a striptease for the fat guardlady Dorris.)

I'd actually consider myself the conservative in today's politics. Call me crazy but I don't want to go around the world playing cultural police fueled by empty rhetoric ("the desire to free those people"), going after the wrong guys ("one less dictator? there's plenty 'bad men' in the world, some who might have actually posed a threat to us. several come to mind"), manipulating the system/facts (is dishonesty now an American trait or what?), running the deficit sky high, and pushing theocratic views that I think could be our only possible downfall. I respect the fact that you were raised a certain way because you lived in a certain region, but I don't feel like fighting a religious war when we could've just gone deeper and solved the problem more efficiently actually looking at the causes of acts like terror. And if you think that means being "weak" or cutting defense and letting them attack us... what can I say? I think you're wrong?

Sorry guys, I'm taking a government class mixing Middle East history and US/Western policy in the region and whatnot so I feel like talking tonight after reading 200 pages of ME history and how that mess started in the first place. It's the most relevent class I've taken since sex ed in 6th grade. Usually I'm a very laid back, friendly guy but things are so wierd right now with our country, it's hard not to get passionate about it one way or the other. Seriously, I'm not a hippie, I'm not gay, and I'm not a terrorist supporter. I'm a potential Republican voter and the damn Republicans are scaring me off. Get someone respectable like McCain and I'd at the very least listen to what he has to say about our country before making a decision. This years a no brainer for me.

bama- Let me guess who the other worst president in modern times is. He didn't have heart surgery the other day did he? That's a rhetorical question. :p

[SWTsig]

miller is a lunatic..... period.

the guy wasn't speaking with passion, he was speaking with unadulterated hatred. just look at his face during his speech. IMO, he looked like Hitler at a Nazi rally..... he offered no solutions, but he did place all the blame on a single "group" of people. i have never been more disturbed with american politics than i was after zell's speech. not to mention he threatened matthews to a duel. i'm as southern and proud as the next guy, but a freaking duel???? the guy is obviously out of touch with reality.

and yet there's people praising him. sad.

[giddyup]

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade
http://www.leanleft.com/images/midtax.gif

Well since the Bush tax cuts help the rich over the poor or middle class, and Zell is siding with Bush, Carter makes a good point.
So the poor have to win every head-to-head for it to be fair?

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by giddyup
So the poor have to win every head-to-head for it to be fair?

I didn't say anything about it being fair or unfair. Just that Carter said that Miller chose the rich over the poor. And by choosing Bush's policies which favor the rich, then Miller did that. I was just showing evidence that the policies do favor the rich, and so Carter had some grounds to speak on in regards to the issue.

People can argue that it's fair for the rich to benefit, or it's good for the economy or whatever. But it doesn't mean that Carter was solely trying to divide into two Americas. It was merely a reflection of Bush economic policy.

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by SWTsig
miller is a lunatic..... period.


I think Miller is hilarious. He also may have helped the Democrats with his insane rant. Remember when the Bush folks accused Dean, and Gore of losing it, and becoming madmen?

That's hilarious considering the Keynote speaker at the GOP outdid any Gore or Dean speach. I don't think we'll be hearing that charge from the GOP anytime soon.

[Trader_Jorge]

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade
I think Miller is hilarious. He also may have helped the Democrats with his insane rant. Remember when the Bush folks accused Dean, and Gore of losing it, and becoming madmen?

That's hilarious considering the Keynote speaker at the GOP outdid any Gore or Dean speach. I don't think we'll be hearing that charge from the GOP anytime soon.

Well you would have a point if:

1) Zell Miller were running for office.

2) Zell Miller were a Republican.

It's a totally different angle when you have a Democrat attacking another Democrat. The liberals know this, which is why they have been so fervent in their character assassinations of Miller lately. Miller stuck a knife in Kerry.

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
Well you would have a point if:

1) Zell Miller were running for office.

2) Zell Miller were a Republican.

It's a totally different angle when you have a Democrat attacking another Democrat. The liberals know this, which is why they have been so fervent in their character assassinations of Miller lately. Miller stuck a knife in Kerry.

1. Gore isn't running for office and neither is Dean, now. That doesn't stop the GOP from trying to portray many who oppose BUsh as whackos.

2. Zell Miller might be a Democrat, but he was the KEYNOTE SPEAKER AT THE RNC. The Keynote speaker is the one who exemplifies the message. When someone is insane and goes on a maniacal rant, it doesn't matter what letter is in front of his name. What does matter is who he's working for, and what convention he's KEYNOTE SPEAKER at.

[Trader_Jorge]

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade
1. Gore isn't running for office and neither is Dean, now. That doesn't stop the GOP from trying to portray many who oppose BUsh as whackos.
Dean was at the time, as you well know.

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade
2. Zell Miller might be a Democrat, but he was the KEYNOTE SPEAKER AT THE RNC. The Keynote speaker is the one who exemplifies the message. When someone is insane and goes on a maniacal rant, it doesn't matter what letter is in front of his name. What does matter is who he's working for, and what convention he's KEYNOTE SPEAKER at.
Zell was the KEYNOTE SPEAKER for the DNC not too long ago, amigo. You must have forgotten.



CASE CLOSED

[RocketMan Tex]

Originally posted by bamaslammer
How is pointing out the record of the second worst president in recent times myopic? It's just a recititation of facts. I've got to agree with MadMax that why should being a "loyal" member of any party mean you have to goosestep alongside them when you disagree with them? I thought independence in politicians, most notably McCain, was loved by the left! Oh, that's right, I forgot. Republican who fights against his brethern, that is courageous. Democrat who fights against his brethern, he's a turncoat and he's "angry" and seething with rage.
Sure.....right. :rolleyes:

7 minutes. You're slipping. And, tell me, what the hell does recititation mean, possumhunter? Aren't you supposedly a "writer"? Ever heard of a dictionary? Perhaps you should sell one of your shotguns and buy one, for the next time you try to use the word recitation. Bama, you're ridiculous posts look even stupider than they already are when you type like a redneck talks!

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
Dean was at the time, as you well know.


Zell was the KEYNOTE SPEAKER for the DNC not too long ago, amigo. You must have forgotten.


That's right he was. That's the point. When Zell was speaking as Keynote speaker for the Dems he didn't go on an insane rant. When Zell was speaking as the KEYNOTE SPEAKER for the RNC he did.

[bamaslammer]

Originally posted by RocketMan Tex
7 minutes. You're slipping. And, tell me, what the hell does recititation mean, possumhunter? Aren't you supposedly a "writer"? Ever heard of a dictionary? Perhaps you should sell one of your shotguns and buy one, for the next time you try to use the word recitation. Bama, you're ridiculous posts look even stupider than they already are when you type like a redneck talks!
Ever heard of getting a life and admitting what a pathetic excuse for a human being you are? Ah....desperation has inflamed you RMT. You are so angry that your candidate is a total La-who-zer.....that you have to protect your rage at the Right in this country upon me. And no, you ignorant moron, we don't have damned spell check on this BBS. So put that in your pipe and smoke it, you pompous, blowhard coward. Oh Johnny, tell him what he's won........a one way trip to IGNORE. You won't be missed RMT. Buh-bye.

[bamaslammer]

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade
That's right he was. That's the point. When Zell was speaking as Keynote speaker for the Dems he didn't go on an insane rant. When Zell was speaking as the KEYNOTE SPEAKER for the RNC he did.
But FB, you're doing the same thing that you got so mad at the Right for doing. When we referred to Gore and Dean's delusional speeches as the product of insane men, you said that was some kind of GOP smear tactic. I guess you feel you must be forced to fight fire with fire.
But the sad thing about it is that Miller was not a raving lunatic shouting about looney conspiracy theories. He was bemoaning the steadily leftward tilt of the Democratic Party, which you can not deny.

[RocketMan Tex]

Originally posted by bamaslammer
Ever heard of getting a life and admitting what a pathetic excuse for a human being you are? Ah....desperation has inflamed you RMT. You are so angry that your candidate is a total La-who-zer.....that you have to protect your rage at the Right in this country upon me. And no, you ignorant moron, we don't have damned spell check on this BBS. So put that in your pipe and smoke it, you pompous, blowhard coward. Oh Johnny, tell him what he's won........a one way trip to IGNORE. You won't be missed RMT. Buh-bye.

:D

Now that's the slama we all know and love!

:D

[MadMax]

this forum is sooo doomed. after this thread...the religion thread with it's "i'm not calling you an idiot, i'm just calling anyone who thinks like you an idiot" attacks...and others...it's just ridiculously personal all the way around.

[Deckard]

Originally posted by MadMax
this forum is sooo doomed. after this thread...the religion thread with it's "i'm not calling you an idiot, i'm just calling anyone who thinks like you an idiot" attacks...and others...it's just ridiculously personal all the way around.
Not me. I'm singing, "Kumbaya!"

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Deckard
Not me. I'm singing, "Kumbaya!"

:D

[Rocket104]

Originally posted by bamaslammer
But FB, you're doing the same thing that you got so mad at the Right for doing. When we referred to Gore and Dean's delusional speeches as the product of insane men, you said that was some kind of GOP smear tactic. I guess you feel you must be forced to fight fire with fire.

Welcome to American politics in the 21st century.

Ugh.

Anyway, whoever put up the tax chart. Instead of 20% breakdowns, let's see more refined numbers... let's say... 5% increments. I think that would be interesting (I don't know what the numbers would show, I'd just be interested in seeing it.).

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by bamaslammer
But FB, you're doing the same thing that you got so mad at the Right for doing. When we referred to Gore and Dean's delusional speeches as the product of insane men, you said that was some kind of GOP smear tactic. I guess you feel you must be forced to fight fire with fire.
But the sad thing about it is that Miller was not a raving lunatic shouting about looney conspiracy theories. He was bemoaning the steadily leftward tilt of the Democratic Party, which you can not deny.

You don't think Miller lost it on national television delivering his keynote address, and I don't think Gore or Dean lost it in their speeches. Dean's was goofy, but not deranged.

What Miller did was state a false case in an overly angry tone which some could say wasn't in the closest touch with reality.

I don't really care about Miller's mean spiritedness except that it backfires on the GOP. I do care about what he was saying which I don't agree with and is misrepresentative of Kerry's statements, plans, and Senate record.

[giddyup]

Originally posted by Rocket104
Anyway, whoever put up the tax chart. Instead of 20% breakdowns, let's see more refined numbers... let's say... 5% increments. I think that would be interesting (I don't know what the numbers would show, I'd just be interested in seeing it.).
I heard Pat Buchanan say on TV that the bottom 50% of income earners in this country pay only 4% of the revenues taken in.

[thadeus]

Originally posted by Rocket104
Anyway, whoever put up the tax chart. Instead of 20% breakdowns, let's see more refined numbers... let's say... 5% increments. I think that would be interesting (I don't know what the numbers would show, I'd just be interested in seeing it.).

I'd actually be interested in seeing something like this too.

The devil's in the details.

Originally posted by giddyup
I heard Pat Buchanan say on TV that the bottom 50% of income earners in this country pay only 4% of the revenues taken in.

I once heard Pat Buchanan say on TV that, according to God's will, he will soon be declared Grand High Overlord of the Southern Hemisphere after a coup d'etat by a delegation of radical comb-over separatists from Georgia.

I might have heard it wrong though.

[giddyup]

Originally posted by thadeus
I once heard Pat Buchanan say on TV that, according to God's will, he will soon be declared Grand High Overlord of the Southern Hemisphere after a coup d'etat by a delegation of radical comb-over separatists from Georgia.

I might have heard it wrong though.
My guess is that Pat is pretty accurate on the tax stuff, never said the Overlord stuff, and yes indeed you are wrong... :D

I almost left Pat's name out of the citation but included it in a non-partisan spirit of truthfulness. I learned.

[RocketMan Tex]

Originally posted by giddyup
My guess is that Pat is pretty accurate on the tax stuff, never said the Overlord stuff, and yes indeed you are wrong... :D

I almost left Pat's name out of the citation but included it in a non-partisan spirit of truthfulness. I learned.

Anyone else see Pat on Meet the Press last Sunday?

He also called the War in Iraq "wrong" and stated that we need to begin a strategic withdrawal.

I never thought I would agree with anything the man had to say, but I was wrong.

[giddyup]

Originally posted by RocketMan Tex
Anyone else see Pat on Meet the Press last Sunday?

He also called the War in Iraq "wrong" and stated that we need to begin a strategic withdrawal.

I never thought I would agree with anything the man had to say, but I was wrong.
He has been on MSNBC almost constantly. Oski, I'm still waiting on the email. I'll post it as soon as it comes in. Don't worry.

[Batman Jones]

Originally posted by MadMax
this forum is sooo doomed. after this thread...the religion thread with it's "i'm not calling you an idiot, i'm just calling anyone who thinks like you an idiot" attacks...and others...it's just ridiculously personal all the way around.

God, how I wish they'd ban some people, even temporarily, rather than closing the forum. Even just ban them from this forum. I think DaDa's stuff on religion was way over the line. If he posts that stuff, warn him then kick him from this forum only. Let him keep posting in the GARM, etc. If someone else trolls here but not elsewhere, do the same. It's the same guys over and over dragging this place down. It would be a crying shame to lose the good posts and good posters here.

[GladiatoRowdy]

Originally posted by Batman Jones
God, how I wish they'd ban some people, even temporarily, rather than closing the forum. Even just ban them from this forum. I think DaDa's stuff on religion was way over the line. If he posts that stuff, warn him then kick him from this forum only. Let him keep posting in the GARM, etc. If someone else trolls here but not elsewhere, do the same. It's the same guys over and over dragging this place down. It would be a crying shame to lose the good posts and good posters here.

Agreed. There are plenty of conservative, independant, and liberal posters here who refrain from personal attacks, invective, and vituperation and this forum would be better off without those who don't.

[RocketMan Tex]

Originally posted by Batman Jones
God, how I wish they'd ban some people, even temporarily, rather than closing the forum. Even just ban them from this forum. I think DaDa's stuff on religion was way over the line. If he posts that stuff, warn him then kick him from this forum only. Let him keep posting in the GARM, etc. If someone else trolls here but not elsewhere, do the same. It's the same guys over and over dragging this place down. It would be a crying shame to lose the good posts and good posters here.

The way this forum is going these days, I'd volunteer to be banned!

[lalala902102001]

Jimmy Carter was one of the worst presidents ever, but he's also without a doubt the best ex-president that this country has seen.

[SWTsig]

Originally posted by bamaslammer
Ever heard of getting a life and admitting what a pathetic excuse for a human being you are? Ah....desperation has inflamed you RMT. You are so angry that your candidate is a total La-who-zer.....that you have to protect your rage at the Right in this country upon me. And no, you ignorant moron, we don't have damned spell check on this BBS. So put that in your pipe and smoke it, you pompous, blowhard coward. Oh Johnny, tell him what he's won........a one way trip to IGNORE. You won't be missed RMT. Buh-bye.

chill out dude....

while it's no surprise that you're retorting to name calling, that doesn't mean it's neccessary.

[giddyup]

Originally posted by lalala902102001
Jimmy Carter was one of the worst presidents ever, but he's also without a doubt the best ex-president that this country has seen.
Relatively speaking! He had lots of opportunity for improvement. Carter is certainly a good egg. At least, he means well...

Did you know he taught President Bush how to probounce nucular?

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Batman Jones
God, how I wish they'd ban some people, even temporarily, rather than closing the forum. Even just ban them from this forum. I think DaDa's stuff on religion was way over the line. If he posts that stuff, warn him then kick him from this forum only. Let him keep posting in the GARM, etc. If someone else trolls here but not elsewhere, do the same. It's the same guys over and over dragging this place down. It would be a crying shame to lose the good posts and good posters here.

I think RM95 got banned the other day.

[giddyup]

Originally posted by MadMax
I think RM95 got banned the other day.
No! What happened? I missed that and I will miss him here...

[MadMax]

Originally posted by giddyup
No! What happened? I missed that and I will miss him here...

i don't know...i just haven't seen him in D&D at all.

[Faos]

Originally posted by Batman Jones
God, how I wish they'd ban some people, even temporarily, rather than closing the forum. Even just ban them from this forum. I think DaDa's stuff on religion was way over the line. If he posts that stuff, warn him then kick him from this forum only. Let him keep posting in the GARM, etc. If someone else trolls here but not elsewhere, do the same. It's the same guys over and over dragging this place down. It would be a crying shame to lose the good posts and good posters here.

But how can you say one person deserves to be banned over another? Who's the supreme being that can judge the good posts from the bad? Are there people on your side you also think should be banned? Or do they just happen to be Bush supporters or a view differing from yours?

I think this is the whole pupose of having a "debate and discussion" forum. So some guys aren't as tactful as others, big deal. Aside from personal insults and name calling I think anything goes.

[SWTsig]

Originally posted by Faos
But how can you say one person deserves to be banned over another? Who's the supreme being that can judge the good posts from the bad? Are there people on your side you also think should be banned? Or do they just happen to be Bush supporters or a view differing from yours?

I think this is the whole pupose of having a "debate and discussion" forum. So some guys aren't as tactful as others, big deal. Aside from personal insults and name calling I think anything goes.

example:

Ever heard of getting a life and admitting what a pathetic excuse for a human being you are? Ah....desperation has inflamed you RMT. You are so angry that your candidate is a total La-who-zer.....that you have to protect your rage at the Right in this country upon me. And no, you ignorant moron, we don't have damned spell check on this BBS. So put that in your pipe and smoke it, you pompous, blowhard coward. Oh Johnny, tell him what he's won........a one way trip to IGNORE. You won't be missed RMT. Buh-bye.

there are very few posters IMO that even deserve a temporary ban, but that right there is typical bama stuff. he resorts to name calling more often than anyone i know on this board and it gets pretty old if you ask me.

it's hard to hold a real healthy debate with peolpe like that.

sorry for the derailment.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Faos
But how can you say one person deserves to be banned over another? Who's the supreme being that can judge the good posts from the bad? Are there people on your side you also think should be banned? Or do they just happen to be Bush supporters or a view differing from yours?

I think this is the whole pupose of having a "debate and discussion" forum. So some guys aren't as tactful as others, big deal. Aside from personal insults and name calling I think anything goes.

this isn't a free speech zone, Faos. it exists solely at the pleasure of the guy running the site. it's private property.

[bnb]

Originally posted by MadMax
this isn't a free speech zone, Faos. it exists solely at the pleasure of the guy running the site. it's private property.

Very true.

I think Jeff said something to the effect that Clutch is busy counting Bill Gates money.

We're lucky he's not reading this forum - because if he saw the mess we've made of it, we'd all get the boot!

[Faos]

Originally posted by MadMax
this isn't a free speech zone, Faos. it exists solely at the pleasure of the guy running the site. it's private property.

Oh, so now Clutch is against free speech? :)

I understand what you mean, but I stand by my statement above. Most of the complaints stem from differing views. How often do you guys call out one of your own even if they've crossed the line? Never.

here are very few posters IMO that even deserve a temporary ban, but that right there is typical bama stuff. he resorts to name calling more often than anyone i know on this board and it gets pretty old if you ask me.

There's been enough name calling from BOTH sides. Trust me, I've been the target of many although it has dropped significantly since the "Thanks A Lot!" thread.

[Deckard]

Originally posted by Faos
Oh, so now Clutch is against free speech? :)

I understand what you mean, but I stand by my statement above. Most of the complaints stem from differing views. How often do you guys call out one of your own even if they've crossed the line? Never.



There's been enough name calling from BOTH sides. Trust me, I've been the target of many although it has dropped significantly since the "Thanks A Lot!" thread.
Thanks A Lot! ;)

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Faos
Oh, so now Clutch is against free speech? :)

I understand what you mean, but I stand by my statement above. Most of the complaints stem from differing views. How often do you guys call out one of your own even if they've crossed the line? Never.


so he'll drop the entire forum, faos.

[Batman Jones]

Originally posted by Faos
Oh, so now Clutch is against free speech? :)

I understand what you mean, but I stand by my statement above. Most of the complaints stem from differing views. How often do you guys call out one of your own even if they've crossed the line? Never.

There's been enough name calling from BOTH sides. Trust me, I've been the target of many although it has dropped significantly since the "Thanks A Lot!" thread.

Elvis and dimsie got banned way back for crossing the line too often. Achebe too. All lefties. I wouldn't ask conservative posters to call out conservative posters, but there are constant complaints about the lack of decorum and general nastiness in this forum and there are at least two regular posters here who are constant offenders. I don't know if they've been warned, but they've never been booted. I'm for a standard application of rules for both sides. I've gotten too heated in the past, I've called names and been a jerk, but it's not my standard practice and, since people started complaining about this forum, I've made a concerted effort to be civilized. There are at least two posters here who have never made that effort and that regularly, gleefully offend the mods' stated rules for this forum. Regardless of any efforts on my part or yours or giddy's or 95's or basso's, this forum will continue to be nasty until these guys are warned or banned.

[Deckard]

Originally posted by MadMax
so he'll drop the entire forum, faos.
I "called out" DavidS for giving giddy, a staunch conservative, a hard time for using the word brazen... does that count? I think the assault on this forum, by some, is a (using my favorite word right now) brazen act. This forum can easily exist with a little effort by us, the members, and one or two judicial boots, perhaps of a temporary nature, to "clean things up" a little bit.

Heck, we're known for our poo-slinging. And those of us who have raised babies know more about poo-slinging than we really want to.

[GladiatoRowdy]

Originally posted by Deckard

Heck, we're known for our poo-slinging. And those of us who have raised babies know more about poo-slinging than we really want to.

Thankfully, I have been able to keep mine from actually FLINGING poo.

That is daddy's job.

;)

[wouldabeen23]

Whatever happened to FriendlyFan? THAT guy was a leftie who layed it down...kinda like the T_J alter, left ego...

[ima_drummer2k]

Originally posted by wouldabeen23
Whatever happened to FriendlyFan? THAT guy was a leftie who layed it down...kinda like the T_J alter, left ego...
He was banned when Clutch found out that he was actually that Pinetree whacko. Seriously.

[wouldabeen23]

Originally posted by ima_drummer2k
He was banned when Clutch found out that he was actually that Pinetree whacko. Seriously.

I'm sorry Drummer, refresh me, I vaugely remember the Pinetree reference--did they threaten some one and that was FF??

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Deckard
I "called out" DavidS for giving giddy, a staunch conservative, a hard time for using the word brazen... does that count? I think the assault on this forum, by some, is a (using my favorite word right now) brazen act. This forum can easily exist with a little effort by us, the members, and one or two judicial boots, perhaps of a temporary nature, to "clean things up" a little bit.

Heck, we're known for our poo-slinging. And those of us who have raised babies know more about poo-slinging than we really want to.

don't misunderstand me...i dig this forum. i hope it stays. but i certainly wouldn't be surprised if it were gone. it seems as if almost every thread involves at least one personal insult. how you or i feel about it is irrelevant. it's clutch's website. that's it.

[ima_drummer2k]

Originally posted by wouldabeen23
I'm sorry Drummer, refresh me, I vaugely remember the Pinetree reference--did they threaten some one and that was FF??
It was before my time, but I think he was going around threatening everyone (including the mods) with lawsuits. Then he re-registered as FF and his post count was something crazy like 40 posts per day. Clutch figured out it was the same guy and banned him.

[Deckard]

Originally posted by MadMax
don't misunderstand me...i dig this forum. i hope it stays. but i certainly wouldn't be surprised if it were gone. it seems as if almost every thread involves at least one personal insult. how you or i feel about it is irrelevant. it's clutch's website. that's it.
No disagreement with any of that... except that I would be surprised if it were closed. This is the only place on the Net where I talk politics in a forum. Hell, ClutchFans is the only BBS I participate in. (there is one other I keep meaning to get involved in, which will remain unnamed, but it doesn't have a forum remotely like this one)

Were this part of it to close, it would diminish the experience considerably, at least for those of us who are ardent Rockets fans, but get a great deal of enjoyment from the rest of the BBS, including discussing the subjects often found in here. Hangout is great, but it goes through it's doldrums as well. There are just so many "boobs" and "what's on your turntable" ;) threads that I can handle, after awhile.

If you wade through the trash that is admittedly here, it's filled with excellent posts, from a diverse group of people. I really get a kick out of it. It could use some tweaking, but I think that's all that is needed. That, and more participation by some of the members who read the forum, but don't post in it much, if at all.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Deckard


If you wade through the trash that is admittedly here, it's filled with excellent posts, from a diverse group of people. I really get a kick out of it. It could use some tweaking, but I think that's all that is needed. That, and more participation by some of the members who read the forum, but don't post in it much, if at all.

agreed. as best i can tell, there's nothing else like it on the net.

[GladiatoRowdy]

Originally posted by MadMax
agreed. as best i can tell, there's nothing else like it on the net.

No kidding. I never even really considered posting on a BBS until I found this one and wouldn't have become nearly as involved without the D&D.