John Kerry's Former Commanding Officer Retracts Criticism

[RocketMan Tex]

Well now. Seems like the closer we get to November 2nd, the more the truth is beginning to come out. The truth is that the administration of George W. Bush is beginning to look more and more like the last days of the Nixon Administration every single day. How can these people live with their lying sack of sh*t selves?

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/08/06/veteran_retracts_criticism_of_kerry

Veteran retracts criticism of Kerry
By Michael Kranish, Globe Staff | August 6, 2004

WASHINGTON -- A week after Senator John F. Kerry heralded his wartime experience by surrounding himself at the Democratic convention with his Vietnam ''Band of Brothers," a separate group of veterans has launched a television ad campaign and a book that questions the basis for some of Kerry's combat medals.


But yesterday, a key figure in the anti-Kerry campaign, Kerry's former commanding officer, backed off one of the key contentions. Lieutenant Commander George Elliott said in an interview that he had made a ''terrible mistake" in signing an affidavit that suggests Kerry did not deserve the Silver Star -- one of the main allegations in the book. The affidavit was given to The Boston Globe by the anti-Kerry group to justify assertions in their ad and book.

Elliott is quoted as saying that Kerry ''lied about what occurred in Vietnam . . . for example, in connection with his Silver Star, I was never informed that he had simply shot a wounded, fleeing Viet Cong in the back."

The statement refers to an episode in which Kerry killed a Viet Cong soldier who had been carrying a rocket launcher, part of a chain of events that formed the basis of his Silver Star. Over time, some Kerry critics have questioned whether the soldier posed a danger to Kerry's crew. Crew members have said Kerry's actions saved their lives.

Yesterday, reached at his home, Elliott said he regretted signing the affidavit and said he still thinks Kerry deserved the Silver Star.

''I still don't think he shot the guy in the back," Elliott said. ''It was a terrible mistake probably for me to sign the affidavit with those words. I'm the one in trouble here."

Elliott said he was no under personal or political pressure to sign the statement, but he did feel ''time pressure" from those involved in the book. ''That's no excuse," Elliott said. ''I knew it was wrong . . . In a hurry I signed it and faxed it back. That was a mistake."

The affidavit also contradicted earlier statements by Elliott, who came to Boston during Kerry's 1996 Senate campaign to defend Kerry on similar charges, saying that Kerry acted properly and deserved the Silver Star.

The book, ''Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry," is to be published next week. Yesterday it reached number one on the bestseller list on Amazon.com, based on advance orders, in part because of publicity about it on the Drudge Report.

The book seeks to undermine one of the central claims of Kerry's campaign -- that his Vietnam War heroism would make him a good commander in chief.

While the Regnery Publishing yesterday declined to release an advance copy of the book, Drudge's website quotes it as saying, ''Elliott indicates that a Silver Star recommendation would not have been made by him had he been aware of the actual facts."

Meanwhile, a television advertising campaign began yesterday featuring many of the anti-Kerry veterans who are quoted in the book, including Elliott. In the ad, Elliott says, ''John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam."


Asked to supply evidence to support that statement, the anti-Kerry group provided a copy of Elliott's affidavit. Elliott said the same affidavit had been used in the production of the book.

It is unclear whether the work contains further justification for the assertion, beyond Elliott's statement.

Kerry won the Silver Star for his action on Feb. 28, 1969, in which he shot a Viet Cong soldier who had been carrying a rocket launcher and running toward a hut. All of Kerry's crewmates who participated and are still living said in interviews last year that the action was necessary and appropriate, and it was Elliott who recommended Kerry for the Silver Star.

In an interview for a seven-part biographical series that appeared in the Globe last year, Kerry said: ''I don't have a second's question" about killing the Viet Cong. ''He was running away with a live B-40, and, I thought, poised to turn around and fire it."

Asked whether that meant that he had shot the guerrilla in the back, Kerry said, ''No, absolutely not," adding that the enemy had been running to a hut for cover, where he could have destroyed Kerry's boat and killed the crew.

The forthcoming book is coauthored by Jerome R. Corsi and John O'Neill, a former Vietnam naval officer who in 1971 debated Kerry on the Dick Cavett show, challenging Kerry's assertion that US atrocities had been widespread in Vietnam. O'Neill met with then-President Richard M. Nixon for an hour before debating Kerry, and his efforts were encouraged by Nixon's aides.

O'Neill could not be reached for comment yesterday. President Bush's campaign denied working with O'Neill on the book or with the producers of the television advertisement.

Meanwhile, Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, urged Bush yesterday to disassociate himself from what he called a ''dishonest and dishonorable" attack. In response, the White House spokesman, Scott McClellan, said, ''We have not and we will not question Senator Kerry's service in Vietnam."

The Associated Press reported yesterday that Houston home-builder Bob J. Perry, a major Republican donor, gave at least $100,000 to the organization sponsoring the ad, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

The Kerry campaign spokesman, Michael Meehan, said none of those in the ad had served on a boat with Kerry. ''Some of these men defended John Kerry's honor on his military record in 1996 and so they were either lying then or lying now," Meehan said. ''Either way, it is gutter politics."

The book also raises questions about the action of March 13, 1969, for which Kerry was awarded a Bronze Star and his third Purple Heart, according to an advance chapter of the book.

The anti-Kerry group provided three affidavits from veterans on nearby boats questioning aspects of the award.


On that day, Kerry rescued James Rassmann, who went overboard as a result of an explosion. Rassmann appeared by Kerry's side during the Iowa caucus campaign and at last week's Democratic National Convention, telling the story of how Kerry pulled him out of the water while his boat was under fire.

As in the case of the Silver Star, it was Elliott who recommended Kerry for the Bronze Star. According to the recommendation signed by Elliott, a mine exploded under a boat accompanying Kerry's craft.

''Almost simultaneously, another mine detonated close aboard [Kerry's] PCF-94, knocking First Lieutenant Rassman [sic] into the water and wounding Lt. JG Kerry in the right arm."

Elliott then described how Kerry ''managed to pull Lt. Rassman aboard despite the painful wound in his right arm." Elliott concluded that Kerry had been ''calm, professional, and highly courageous in the face of enemy fire."

Elliott, in the interview yesterday, said that based on the affidavits of the veterans on other boats, he now thinks his assessment about the Bronze Star and third Purple Heart may have been based on poor information.

In one affidavit, for example, Van O'Dell, who said he had been in a boat near Kerry on that day, declared that Kerry had ''lied" about what happened on that day and said that Rassmann was not under enemy fire when Kerry pulled him aboard.

Elliott, asked about the contradiction between his recommendation and his new questioning of Kerry's third Purple Heart, responded, ''It makes me look kind of silly, to be perfectly honest."

But he said: ''I simply have no reason for these guys to be lying, and if they are lying in concert, it is one hell of a conspiracy. So, on the basis of all of the information that has come out, I have chosen to believe the other men. I absolutely do not know first hand."

Naval documents said that Kerry ''received shrapnel wounds in left buttocks and contusions on right forearm when a mine detonated close to PCF 94 while engaged in operations on river. Condition and prognosis excellent. Result of hostile action."

Rassmann, reached by telephone yesterday, said he has never had any question that Kerry deserved the Purple Heart. He said there were two separate events: One was earlier in the day, when he and Kerry blew up a rice cache, and the explosion caused some of the rice to hit Kerry, and perhaps some weapon fragments as well. The second involved a mine explosion as Kerry and Rassmann were on patrol. The explosion, Rassmann said, knocked him overboard and threw Kerry against the pilot house, injuring his arm.

Rassmann said that he has always believed that Kerry got the third Purple Heart solely for the injury to his arm as a result of the explosion in the water.

''If he got fragments in the buttocks due to the mine, that is new information to me," Rassmann said.

''I would say there is confusion. Maybe they did lump it together. It was my understanding he got it for the wound being thrown across the pilot house."

Either way, Rassmann said, Kerry deserved the third Purple Heart because such awards are given for injuries incurred in combat, and Kerry's arm injury qualified. He also stood by his recollection that he was under fire when rescued by Kerry.

Those questioning Kerry's medals, Rassmann said, are ''angry about John speaking out against the [Vietnam] war."

[MadMax]

A wise man I know once said this:

"Fuggit. We're all infidels in one way or another. Have another drink!"

:D

[RocketMan Tex]

Originally posted by MadMax
A wise man I know once said this:

"Fuggit. We're all infidels in one way or another. Have another drink!"

:D

Do I know him? Sounds like a helluva guy!

:D:D:D

I think, I think, I think, I think, I think I'll have another drink!

[ROXRAN]

He got threatened with ketchup!...Still, the drum beats multiplicity against Kerry's shady, unethical, repugnant military behavior...What gets me is that Democrats call for the administration for disassociation when they can't do the same thing as they pair Fat boy Moore, with far-left ineffective ex-President Carter at the DNC...Of course the hedonistic neo-demos, can't stand the equity of living in a glass house...

[Chump]

Originally posted by ROXRAN
He got threatened with ketchup!...Still, the drum beats multiplicity against Kerry's shady, unethical, repugnant military behavior...What gets me is that Democrats call for the administration for disassociation when they can't do the same thing as they pair Fat boy Moore, with far-left ineffective ex-President Carter at the DNC...Of course the hedonistic neo-demos, can't stand the equity of living in a glass house...


please document ANY "shady, unethical" or "repugnant" behavior Kerry displayed while in the military

oh wait, you can't, this is just GOP talking point b s that you will hope stick in someone's mind

[ROXRAN]

Originally posted by Chump
please document ANY "shady, unethical" or "repugnant" behavior Kerry displayed while in the military

oh wait, you can't, this is just GOP talking point b s that you will hope stick in someone's mind

The documentation in it's entirety will be available August 15th, 2004...reserve your copy now!

[RocketMan Tex]

Originally posted by ROXRAN
The documentation in it's entirety will be available August 15th, 2004...reserve your copy now!

http://bbs2.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82017

I'll reserve my copy for the next time I run out of toilet paper.

:D

[ROXRAN]

Originally posted by RocketMan Tex
http://bbs2.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82017

I'll reserve my copy for the next time I run out of toilet paper.

:D

Distribute the truth any way you can...
:D

[RocketMan Tex]

Originally posted by ROXRAN
Distribute the truth any way you can...
:D

BRILLIANT!!!

:D:D:D

[Rocketman95]

ROXRAN likes his heroes coked up and out of their commander's hair in the deep South. Hey, if he wants his kids to grow up in a U.S.A. with more attacks like 9/11, let him. I for one will be voting for a hero who volunteered to go to Vietnam. I want my future kids to grow up in a safe U.S.A., not one where we have to scare the citizens everytime our opponents are getting too much news coverage.

Jeez, it's easy to post this crap! No wonder ROXRAN does it so much!

[Chump]

Originally posted by ROXRAN
The documentation in it's entirety will be available August 15th, 2004...reserve your copy now!

seriously, how ignorant can you be? how utterly blinded by your biases?

you just have proven that you have zero interest in the truth, that book is absolutely nothing but "dishonest and dishonorable", but yet you still cling to it

John Kerry has plently to be critized about without the need to lie

[ROXRAN]

Originally posted by Chump
seriously, how ignorant can you be? how utterly blinded by your biases?

you just have proven that you have zero interest in the truth, that book is absolutely nothing but "dishonest and dishonorable", but yet you still cling to it

John Kerry has plently to be critized about without the need to lie



Is the book politically slanted? Probably, but if direct evidence is pronounced from persons associated with Kerry, and listed as such, it then is an issue worthy of examination in light of the truth...Especially when the information via persons related to Kerry's military venture are from multiple sources and in agreement with what I ascertain as definite acts of being shady, unethical, and downright repugnant!....It seems to be cited that two of John Kerry's three Purple Heart decorations resulted from self-inflicted wounds, not suffered under enemy fire....Is this not shady? repugnant?, unethical?...

It is cited that all three of Kerry's Purple Hearts were for minor injuries, not requiring a single hour of hospitalization...This clearly taints the merits of earning these purple hearts...Why not give them out to all the veterans who get blisters in harm's way?...

What about the culmination of Kerry's reckless behavior which convinced his colleagues that he had to go -- becoming the only Swift Boat veteran to serve only four months...This is alarming in view of his unusual mannerisms as cited thus far...The thing is there is more...A lot more, that comes from multiple sources which summize the point of Kerry being unfit for command...I am in dire need of the truth, so I suggest everyone to stop the ignorant snippets...Get the information August 15th...Learn the facts of how we cannot allow this person with so much lacking into the Presidential office...

[RocketMan Tex]

Originally posted by ROXRAN
Learn the facts of how we cannot allow this person with so much lacking into the Presidential office...

We already did, in December of 2000. W has proven it time and time again, internationally and domestically, ad nauseum. That is why a change is necessary, for the best interests of this great country.

[rimrocker]

Hmmmm. According to Brinkley, the guy who is saying Kerry's Bronze Star was not earned actually earned a Bronze Star himself for the same mission. I don't recall any stories of Thurlow giving back his medals...

Here's a transcript from yesterday, followed by the Brinkley article.
________________
WOODRUFF: We've been reporting on the debate between Vietnam veterans for and against John Kerry. With me now, two central figures in this debate. Larry Thurlow, he's with me here in Washington. Like John Kerry, he commanded a swift boat in Vietnam. He appears in that anti-Kerry television ad that we showed you a little earlier.

In Eugene, Oregon, is Jim Rassmann. He served under John Kerry's command and he credits Kerry with saving his life. Rassmann, you may remember, spoke at last week's Democratic convention.

Larry Thurlow, I want to -- I want to begin with you. You essentially, as I understand it, you, too, won a Bronze Star, like John Kerry did. The incident in which John Kerry pulled Jim Rassmann out of -- out of the river...

LARRY THURLOW, APPEARS IN ANTI-KERRY AD: Yes? WOODRUFF: ... in Vietnam, Kerry says that this happened under enemy fire, that Rassmann had been knocked in the water, he went back and was the first to get to Rassmann and pulled him out of the water. You essentially said that's not what happened. What are you saying?

THURLOW: My recollection of that day is still pretty vivid after all these years. And what I remember, Judy, is that the incident involving Mr. Rassmann, five boats had come out of the river after running an operation up in the canal earlier that day. Three boats were going through a fishing weir on the left side of the river that had put in place between the time we entered and when we were leaving.

I'm the third boat in that column left. In the column right, there are two boats. The lead boat is John Kerry's.

He's going through a rather small opening on the right bank that (ph) had been left in his boat. The boat leading our column, as it goes through that small opening almost simultaneously, is blasted completely out of the water by a command detonated mine.

WOODRUFF: This is another boat?

THURLOW: This is a 3-boat (ph) -- this is on the opposite side of the river of John Kerry's boat. At this point, John Kerry speeds out of the area, I assume to clear the kill zone. The rest of the boats, however, went to the aid of the 3-boat (ph), which was completely disabled. Two members of that crew are in the water, the rest are badly wounded and basically incapacitated on board that boat.

WOODRUFF: You're basically saying he fled when there was...

(CROSSTALK)

THURLOW: I am saying he fled the area on the explosion under the 3-boat (ph).

WOODRUFF: All right. Well, before -- and let me ask Jim Rassmann about that part of the story before we ask what happened to him.

Jim Rassmann, what -- what do you say happened that day in March, 1969?

JIM RASSMANN, KERRY SUPPORTER: Well, first, I was not part of John Kerry's command. I was a Special Forces officer who happened to be on his boat at that time.

Mr. Thurlow's recollection of what occurred is not accurate. We had the boat hit the mine to our left. And John immediately had his driver, Del Sandusky (ph), turn to the left and head towards it.

And it was at that time that our gunner on the bow got his gun knocked out and he started screaming for another weapon. I ran another weapon up to me, and we hit something or something hit us. There was an explosion, and I was blown off the boat to the right.

WOODRUFF: And you ended up in the water how?

RASSMANN: I was blown into the water, and I had boats coming up behind me. So, I went to the bottom of the river.

WOODRUFF: Now, as I understand it, Larry Thurlow, you have a different version of how Jim Rassmann was in the water.

THURLOW: Yes, I do. My thought is that since no mine was detected on the other side of the river, no blast was seen, no noise heard, there's two things that are inconsistent with my memory.

Our boats immediately put automatic weapons fire on to the left bank just in case there was an ambush in conjunction with the mine. It soon became apparent there was no ambush.

The rescue efforts began on the 3-boat (ph). And at this time, the second boat in line, mine being the third boat on the left bank, began to do this.

Now, two members in this boat, keep in mind, are in the river at that time. They're picked up. The boat that picks them up starts toward Lieutenant Rassmann at this time, that's the 23-boat (ph). But before they get there, John does return and pick him up. But I distinctly remember we were under no fire from either bank.

WOODRUFF: Jim Rassmann, what about that? You hear Mr. Thurlow saying there was no enemy fire at that point.

RASSMANN: Mr. Thurlow is being disingenuous. I don't know what his motivation is, but I was receiving fire in the water every time I came up for air. I don't recall anybody being in the area around us until I came up maybe five or six times for air and Kerry came back to pick me up out of the water.

WOODRUFF: Disingenuous. He says you are being disingenuous in not recalling what happened.

THURLOW: Let me ask Mr. Rassmann this question: I also ended up in the water that day during the rescue efforts on the 3-boat (ph). And my boat, the 51-boat (ph), came up, picked me up, business as usual. I got back on board, went about the business at hand.

I received no fire. But the thing I would like to ask is, we have five boats now, John's returning, and four boats basically dead in the water, working on the 3-boat (ph). If we were receiving fire off the bank, how come not one single boat received one bullet hole, nobody was hit, no sign of any rounds hitting the water while I was in it?

WOODRUFF: What about that, Jim Rassmann, quickly?

RASSMANN: There were definitely rounds hitting the water around me. If Mr. Thurlow feels that what his story is purported to be was the case, he had ample opportunity 35 years ago to deal with it. He never did, nor did anyone else. John Kerry did not tell this story. I told this story when I put him in for a Silver Star for coming back to rescue me. The Navy saw fit to reduce it to a Bronze Star for valor.

That's OK with me. But If Mr. Furlow had a problem with that, he should have dealt with it long, long ago. To bring it up now, I think, is very disingenuous. I think that this is partisan motivation on his part and for the part of his whole organization.

WOODRUFF: Mr. Thurlow, why didn't you bring this up earlier?

THURLOW: For one thing, I did not know that John had been put in for a Bronze Star, a Silver Star or, for that matter, a Purple Heart on that day. I did not see the after-action report, which, in fact, was written by John. And as the years went by, John was not running for the highest office in the free world.

WOODRUFF: What about Mr. Rassmann's point that he thinks you're doing this for partisan purposes?

THURLOW: Well, this is not true because, the fact of the matter is, I have not been active in any political party since I got out of the service. In fact, I basically turned my back on politics because of my experience in the service.

WOODRUFF: But this -- you feel strongly enough about this to be out?

THURLOW: I certainly do. My point is, is that John Kerry, because of the actions he's taken, and then the fantastic stories he made up about this, when many people beside myself know this not to be true, negates him being the leader he claims to be. And I would hate to have him be the commander-in-chief over my grandchildren.

WOODRUFF: Jim Rassmann, you want to respond to that?

RASSMANN: I sure do. I have two wonderful kids. They're very bright, they're compassionate people. I'm here today not just because John Kerry pulled me out of that water. I'm here today because if those two kids of mine were in the military, I would want John Kerry to be the commander-in-chief, not George Bush.

I think that Mr. Thurlow has a very unusual recollection of the events. I think that it's important to note that even today John McCain has come out and called this ad that they have produced dishonest and dishonorable. And I think I would have to agree with him.

WOODRUFF: Well, gentlemen, we are going to have to leave it there. Mr. Jim Rassmann, we thank you for joining us from Eugene, Oregon.

Larry Thurlow, we thank you for joining us here in Washington. We know you're from Kansas. We appreciate it.

And I have a sense we're going to continue to hear more about this story in the days and the weeks to come. Gentlemen, thank you very much.

THURLOW: You're welcome.

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0408/05/ip.01.html
______________________

John Kerry's Final Mission in Vietnam
American History Magazine

By Douglas Brinkley

March 13, 1969, would prove among the worst and best days John Kerry spent in Vietnam. Three years earlier, with the main thrust of the antiwar movement yet to come, Kerry had graduated from Yale University, delivering his class oration. Although he had just signed up with the U.S. Navy, in that address he questioned U.S. involvement in Southeast Asia. After completing several assignments and being trained to command a patrol craft fast (PCF), or "Swift" boat, Lieutenant junior grade Kerry was ordered to patrol the Viet Cong–infested rivers of Vietnam's Mekong Delta as part of Operation Sealords.

By that March day he had been on Swift boat duty for only four months, but had already been wounded in action twice and was increasingly frustrated with the course of the river war. It seemed senseless to motor up a river, presenting an easy target on the open water, and then exchange fire with usually unseen enemies safely ensconced in the heavy growth on shore -- only to motor downriver and repeat those same actions the following day. Uncooperative allies and interservice rivalries only added to his frustrations. Yet Kerry, like so many others involved in the conflict, did the best he could to follow orders.

The March 13 mission, Kerry's last in Vietnam, was no exception. By the time it was over, he would have earned a Bronze Star, plus his third Purple Heart, and with it the last punch on his ticket out of Southeast Asia.

At 6 a.m. Kerry's PCF-94, along with fellow Lt. j.g. Rich McCann's PCF-24, left their supporting LST (landing ship, tank) to join three other Swifts for Operation Sealords Mission XCVIII -- a raid on the Bay Hap River. The day dawned gray and sunless, which made forming up particularly difficult. The humid air hung stagnant, and the radars worked spottily, if at all, through the unusually dark morning. PCF-94 was in far from tiptop shape. "All the windows on my boat and on [Larry Thurlow's PCF-53] boat had been blown out in the ambush two days earlier, and water slopped into the main cabins as the Gulf of Thailand sloshed us back and forth," Kerry recalled. "Each boat had its quota of Chinese-Cambodian [Nung] mercenaries on board, and speed was reduced because of the extra weight."

Near the entrance to the Bay Hap River, McCann's boat developed engine trouble and had to stop. "We transferred his troops to our boats and continued into the river," Kerry reported, his PCF-94 now so weighted down with men and gear it looked like a World War II Higgins boat heading for the Normandy beaches. Also aboard were U.S. Special Forces teams of Green Berets and SEALs being transported into enemy territory.

For the first time during Kerry's many trips up the Bay Hap, the river was choked with early-morning traffic. Swarms of fishing boats of all shapes and sizes were bobbing around. The sampans and motorized junks were crowded with old men and women and the usual smattering of children. In those dawn hours on the Bay Hap, if Kerry had felt like enforcing the no-movement rule to the letter, he could have ordered his men to shoot every Vietnamese on the sampans. The dead would have been matter-of-factly written off as VC trafficking goods during the U.S.–ordained curfew time.

Instead, Kerry slowed his boat down so that its wake wouldn't swamp the locals' shallow-draft rivercraft, and the men proceeded with guns cocked just in case anything unfriendly came their way. "They looked at us and we at them -- each staring with mistrust and fear," he remembered. Finally PCF-94 arrived at the opening to the small Dong Cung canal, where it was to rendezvous with the Swifts skippered by Lieutenants Skip Barker, Don Droz and Larry Thurlow, who would join them bearing the South Vietnamese Popular Forces members (called "Ruff-Puffs") they had picked up in Cai Nuoc.

Barker arrived leading the other boats, and the Swifts got in line headed for the tiny entrance to the Dong Cung canal. At its mouth the PCFs stopped and waited anxiously while Barker cut the wire connecting the fish stakes to make a hole wide enough for the Swifts to pass through. "Only a week earlier I had personally cut that same line," Kerry recalled. "But then, we had learned not to place any particular suspicion in any quarter. Everything could turn around and kill you, and any omen was suspect. And then, an innocent fisherman could easily have replaced it."

The canal was so narrow that the first two boats roiled the waterway around the fish stakes, causing the others to roll wildly from one side to the other. Ridiculously overburdened by the additional troops they had taken aboard from the crippled PCF-24, Kerry's Swift could make only about 10 knots. Fortunately, every so often the rebounding wakes from the boats in front of them would combine into just enough of a wave to pick PCF-94 up and send it hurtling forward.

As PCF-94 twisted and turned up the river, its crew occasionally losing sight of the other Swifts around the waterway's sharp turns, the Special Forces captain in the pilothouse with Kerry glanced at him knowingly as he intently scrutinized the banks for any sign of movement. But none appeared, in part because the mangroves rose so thick about them on both sides that they could barely see through them. "Christ, they can hear us coming for miles," the captain pointed out, "and I can't remember any ****in' thing in the history of war that runs like this -- taking friendly boats smack into VC territory so that they can be shot at." Then, "with a sigh that said '****,'" as Kerry put it, the captain returned to staring out the pilothouse door.

PCF-94 slowly approached the area where it had been ambushed a few weeks before, and they began to look for the place where they were supposed to deposit the ground troops. Lieutenant Skip Barker continued upriver, seeking to drop off the South Vietnamese troops at a point some 2,000 yards past the position of the drop-off point for the Cambodian Nung mercenaries. Kerry found the spot, and the boats nosed ashore into a small clearing, where the troops began moving onto the banks. A few minutes after all the Nung were ashore, the Swift crews heard a loud but muffled explosion inland. A voice came over the radio: "Can you come back in here and pick up a body? I've got one of my boys killed by a booby trap."

Mike Medeiros jumped ashore to join PCF-53's Thurlow, taking a couple of U.S. military-issue ponchos to carry back the mercenary's remains. Kerry secured his boat and followed the others ashore. "The Nung seemed to be wandering around almost aimlessly, unaware that one of them had bought the ticket," Kerry wrote in his journal. Their leader came up to him and told him where the dead body was. "I remembered easily who he was," Kerry wrote, "the loud, boisterous, fat, impish man who was something of a ringleader among the Nung and who had endeared himself to everyone by his funny face." The Americans started down to where Bac She De, the Nung mercenary, had died. Moments earlier Kerry had asked, "Is it bad?" The Nung leader had replied "that you could put him in 'a bucket,'" Kerry wrote. "I walked more carefully, looking where each step went so that I wouldn't trigger another trap."

Kerry and Medeiros came upon the crumpled remains of the Cambodian. "I never want to see anything like that again," Kerry confided in his diary. "What was left was human, and yet it wasn't -- a person had been there only moments earlier and… now was a horrible mess of torn flesh and broken bones; bent and bloody, limbs contorted and distorted as if they could never be alive. Most of his stomach was hollowed out and there was a huge hole that went through his mouth and nose to the other side. I didn't really want to look and so I concentrated on looking right through him, avoiding contact with any personality."

As the two enlisted men bundled up Bac She De, Kerry wrote: "I looked at the small green sack that had been booby-trapped, and was awed by visions of the blast that must have ensued when it had been grabbed at. Half a hootch had been blown out by the concussion and there was a frightening hole in the ground." The situation was too dangerous for further on-site reflection, however, and the Navy men started back to their boats. "We had to extricate this body by carrying him in a poncho," Medeiros remembered. "I was carrying the front end, and somebody else was carrying the back. We had to go through a mangrove swamp, tramping through all this mud. I had a [grenade launcher] strung over my back, my radio was inoperable, and we had to deposit this poncho on the stern of the boat."

As the landing party turned back up the path, "light fire suddenly started to rake up from a field over the trees to the left," Kerry recorded. "Everyone dove instantly into the ditch by the side of our dike and I landed in water and mud up to my waist with the muzzle of my M-16 firmly planted in the crap. A whole line of mercenaries had already formed in the ditch, all shooting madly at what seemed like nothing. However, the whiz of the bullets over our heads that was visually nothing was clearly lethal." Kerry continued: "And Bac She De lay in front of us crumpled in the poncho while this holocaust went on. His feet were sticking out of one end, and I couldn't take my eyes off the boots -- one going one way and the other the opposite direction -- and the whole thing just silhouetted where he had been dropped suddenly when the shooting began. The alive shooting over the dead to remain alive.

"I was amazed at how detached I was from the whole scene," Kerry went on. "I just lay in the ditch, not firing because I wanted to save ammo and because I couldn't see what I was firing at, and I thought about what was happening in New York at that very moment, and if people really felt that I was doing something worthwhile while they went down to Schrafft's and had another ice cream sundae, or while some fat little old man who made another million in the past months off defense contracts was charging another $100 call girl to his expense account. And then, when the shooting stopped, I came back to where I was."

Suddenly all was quiet, and everyone stayed low in the ditch while a call was placed to the LST to report what had happened and to request some helicopters to support the sweep-through area. Lieutenant Commander George Elliott, aboard the LST, requested the choppers, but the word came back that none were available. At that, "I swore," Kerry declared. "We had been promised that when the shooting got heavy, we would have helos to help us out. But the headquarters just said that they were otherwise disposed and we would have to do the best we could."

Unrattled, Elliott played the whole thing down, but he proceeded to send a couple of small flanking groups out on either side to feel out the enemy. The flankers and North Vietnamese immediately met and expanded the huge volume of fire, and more enemy fire started to come Kerry's way.

By this time Kerry had called the South Vietnamese out of their insertion area and asked them to come and help. Their insertion had been a fiasco anyway.

The Navy SEAL team sent to deploy in the area earlier that morning, to wait in ambush for VC to be flushed out by South Vietnamese troops, got lost. When it stumbled upon a friendly outpost, the allies mistakenly began firing at each other, leaving one of the SEALs hurt and several of the South Vietnamese badly wounded. In the course of their sweep, the South Vietnamese troops had actually flushed out some VC, but since no one had been there to intercept them, nothing had come of their efforts.

Using a walkie-talkie after the radio went dead, Kerry contacted his second-in-command, Del Sandusky, who was running things on PCF-94 . Kerry told the petty officer to take the Swift downstream and beach it at a spot parallel to theirs. Then they sneaked up onto the dike and pulled the poncho down with them into the ditch on the other side. Thurlow and one of his crewmen dragged Bac She De's body through the knee-deep mud as the group slogged through the mangroves toward the river.

The PCFs had beached almost directly behind them, but the team's movement through the mud proved so arduous it took another 10 minutes before they could haul the mutilated corpse on board. After they had a quick rinse in the canal and a few moments of rest, the other Swifts, bearing the South Vietnamese Popular Forces troops they had collected, joined PCF-94 . Together the boats proceeded 50 yards downstream, where a bigger clearing in the mangroves allowed the Swifts to train their twin .50-caliber machine guns more accurately at the area from where the earlier firing had come. Meanwhile, Elliott had moved his troops downstream on a parallel course through the mangroves' cover. "With a few small flanking teams covering them on either side, we powwowed there to decide the next move," Kerry recorded.

The mission had called for the Nung troops to make a sweep for Viet Cong through several thousand yards of jungle before being picked up in another canal on the other side. "When the Nung were on board Swifts, the VC stayed away," Fred Short of PCF-94 recalled. "They were terrified of them." The AK-47 fire had proved the enemy's presence, and the Nung, who were paid by the kill, wanted to sweep the area and find them. The South Vietnamese Popular Forces troops, however, were far less motivated to risk their lives. "We wanted the Ruff-Puffs to join us in order to create a force that definitely outclassed what we assessed the firepower of the enemy to be," Kerry wrote in his notebook. "They unloaded from the Swifts but then froze on the bank and refused to go any farther. What followed was disgusting and disheartening. At first they refused to go in because they said they would be fighting under an American commander and that this wasn't their bag. But I thought of the other times that we had gone in here, and that had to be bull****."

Mike Miggins, the U.S. Army adviser to the local ARVN (Army of the Republic of Vietnam), told Kerry the problem was most likely that the Popular Forces didn't want to fight alongside the mercenaries. Then the Ruff-Puffs' leader got on the radio with the ARVN district chief and spent the next half-hour arguing in frenzied Vietnamese about something. An agitated Kerry and crew just stood by helplessly as the bureaucrats on hand engaged in a political debate over the present situation. Having had enough of this, the mercenaries' leader "called his perimeter men and told them to fake a firefight, hoping this might excite our Viet colleagues into battle," Kerry reported. "The next few minutes were filled with tremendous thunder, as though the whole war was being fought in front of them, but it was to no avail. Some of the South Vietnamese got up and looked around and some others cocked their single-fire rifles, but by and large they just milled around. Then they just walked back and got onto the boats and sat down."

While most of the "Cream Puffs" -- as Kerry liked to call the Popular Forces after that -- scampered back to the boats, a few of the bravest made little forays around the area in front of them, where they turned up a substantial cache of Chinese-made grenades, ammunition and one or two land mines. One group found some wire leading down into the water and pulled it up slowly and carefully. No mine was attached, but there was a string of batteries at the other end. "They were American-issue, and we realized that the VC had been planning a reception for us in this very spot should we have tried sometime in the future to make a landing," Kerry recorded. "I could just see us beaching and unloading troops into a volley of claymores and underwater mines."

When AK-47 fire started to rake them again, Miggins and several of Kerry's men finally got so angry that they leaped off the Swifts and joined the mercenaries to start a sweep of their own. The impromptu squad moved through a string of surprisingly prosperous huts and fields, and then back on small paths toward a large open field. Kerry suddenly found himself walking through tall grass with a few of the Cambodian Nung, unable to communicate. "I don't think I ever felt so alone," Kerry remembered of that moment. "I could just see VC jumping out on us, and these guys running away or all of us getting rubbed [out]. I breathed a lot easier when we joined up with [the unit leader's] number-two man, who had been on another path over to the right of me. We found a small hut on the outskirts of the field, and there we regrouped and rested until moving back toward the boats. The hut was full of chickens and rustic implements, and a small pot was cooking on a fire that was still hot. As usual, the occupants were nowhere to be seen, having probably run away as soon as they heard the boats congregating in their area earlier in the morning." The Nung blew up some huge bins of rice they had found, since it was assumed, as always, that these were the local stockpiles earmarked to feed the hungry VC moving through the delta smuggling weapons.

Once back to their boats, "we moved full-speed out of the zone, as we had been there for a dangerously long time now and the chance of something greeting us on exit was pretty good," Kerry wrote. Every man on the mission fully expected to get hit on the thin stretch of the Dong Cung canal on the way out, but somehow they all made it to the Bay Hap unscathed. The Swifts rounded the point toward the village of Cai Nuoc, anxious to get rid of their "Cream-Puff" passengers, out of the river and back to the LST. For the first time that Kerry could remember, however, there were no children there to greet them as they went into Cai Nuoc -- in fact, the pier was practically deserted. "Had we been paying attention," Kerry noted, "the obvious clue that something was up would have hit full force in the face, but, because we were all pissed off and anxious to clear out, we just unloaded and moved away."

Almost casually, the Swifts formed up and headed out from the village. The five boats had gone about half a mile when the blast came. Right where they had been hit on an earlier mission, a mine exploded directly beneath Lieutenant James Rassman's PCF-3 near Kerry's port side. Rassman's Swift lifted about two feet up out of the water, engulfed in mud and spray, then settled, rocking so hard from side to side that the boat started zigzagging from the banks to the middle of the river. Everybody on board PCF-3 was wounded. "At the same moment, we came under a hail of small-arms fire from both banks," Kerry recorded in his journal. "I turned the boat into the fire on the left with the intention of trying to get the troops ashore on the outskirts of the ambush, but Sandusky, who was driving the boat and who had his eyes glued on the crippled 3 boat, pointed out to me how badly hit they had been. We veered back toward her then and tried to provide cover from the engaged side. Suddenly another explosion went off right beside us, and the concussion threw me violently against the bulkhead on the door, and I smashed my arm. At the same instant, Jim Rassman was blown overboard, although nobody knew it. But we continued sidling up to the 3, and as we came closer I could see that her twin-.50 mount over the pilothouse had been completely blown out of its stand and had landed on the gunner. No one was moving on the stern. [PCF-3 crewman] Ken Tryner, on his first real river expedition, was kneeling dazed in the doorway with a small trickle of blood down his face, aimlessly firing his M-79."

Thurlow had maneuvered his PCF-53 over by this time, and he hopped aboard PCF-3 to offer assistance. The boat was a shambles, but they were still shooting too hard to assess the damage. "Someone on the fantail must have noticed Jim swimming in back of us, ducking against the fire that was trying to pick him off because I suddenly heard the yell of 'man overboard' and looked back to see the bullets splashing in the water beside him," Kerry reported. "We turned around with the engines screaming against each other -- one full astern, the other full forward -- and then charged the several hundred yards back into the ambush where Jim was trying to find some cover. Everyone on board must have been firing without pause to keep the sniper heads down."

Kerry, thanking God the scramble nets were over the bow, struggled to get Rassman on board. "It must have looked like a comedy," he recalled. "Jim was exhausted from swimming and my right arm hurt and I couldn't pull very hard with it. Everyone else was firing a machine gun or something, except for Sandusky, who was maneuvering the boat, trying not to run over Jim but also trying to get near him as quickly as possible. Christ knows how, but somehow we got him on board and I didn't get the bullet in the head that I expected, and we managed to clear the ambush zone and move down near the 3 boat that was still crawling [on] a snail-like zigzag through the river."

Thurlow was struggling to get PCF-3's wounded gunner out of his hole and onto the deck when the damaged Swift ran aground hard on a shoal on the right side of the river, sending Thurlow somersaulting into the water. At the same moment, the five Swifts came under fire from the right side again, and Kerry remembered thinking that was it -- they were going to get completely cut off and annihilated in a crossfire. Spontaneously, however, every boat there stood its ground and filled the entire right bank of the river with .50-caliber, M-79, M-16 and any other firepower they had, while one of the Swifts moved in and retrieved Thurlow, who had picked himself up out of the mud. PCF-94 then moved in and attached a line to the damaged boat's stern to try to tow PCF-3 out, but the tether snapped. Kerry put another line on, and this one held. "We managed to get her clear of the kill zone," he exulted. Finally, the tumult subsided. "The wounded were transferred to another of the Swifts, which set off at full speed with a cover boat to take them out to the LST to be medevaced."

Thurlow remained on the crippled PCF-3, and the other two boats slowly began a procession out of the Bay Hap River, working desperately to keep the damaged Swift afloat. The overboard discharge pipe had been blown apart inside the engine room, and the hull was quickly filling with water. It became a race against time to get PCF-3 out of the river before it sank. One of the Swifts that had gone out with the wounded was on its way back with a damage-control team from the LST, but if they didn't get back soon there would be no boat to pump. Just as they reached the mouth of the river, the crewmen aboard PCF-94 and the other healthy Swift positioned their boats on either side of their endangered cohort to hold the boat up between them. A bucket brigade of tired and bloody sailors kept bailing for all they were worth and managed to keep PCF-3 afloat despite the water pouring into it. And all this while Bac She De's corpse lay in a poncho on PCF-94 's fantail.

Finally the LST damage team arrived with the pump, and the bucket brigade plopped down, exhausted. Once they caught their breath, the men all sat around and smoked, talking about what they had just gone through. Their chatter was animated, as each man, exuberant to be alive, described how close the shells had fallen and everything else he had seen over the past few hours. One of the Nung troops still aboard, however, displayed no such elations. "Bac She De's closest buddy, who looked like a mouse and whom we called that, was crying now because it had all caught up with him," Kerry said sadly. "I have never seen eyes so wide and so full of tears, and since I couldn't say anything to him I just patted him on the arm and nodded stupidly and then went away to sit down and enjoy the peace and quiet."

After what felt like an eternity, the Swifts neared the LST. The helicopter bearing the wounded was on the landing deck waiting for them to arrive with the body. "Mouse came in with us because he didn't want to have to leave Bac She De, and it didn't occur to any of us at the moment that this would be worse," Kerry recorded. "We pulled alongside the LST, and the helo started its engine and everyone stared over the side. I was determined that they wouldn't have the satisfaction of glaring at the body of this fighter, and so when the body bag was lowered down we put Bac She De in it, poncho and all, and zipped it up. My God, the look on Mouse's face as he saw his friend zipped into a nondescript Marine-green rubber bag and hoisted away forever. The tears ran down his face. How I hated the war and everything about it at that moment -- more than any other."

Kerry and the other wounded men received medical attention aboard a Coast Guard cutter, which was the closest ship capable of treating them. Along with a third Purple Heart for the injury to his right arm, Kerry was also awarded a Bronze Star for his bravery, as was Larry Thurlow.

By any standard, John Kerry had become a bona fide war hero. When the commander of Coastal Division 11, Charles F. Horne, recommended him for the Bronze Star on March 23, 1969, he pointed out that the 25-year-old lieutenant had previously earned two Purple Hearts (on December 2, 1968, and February 20, 1969) and the Silver Star (on March 6, 1969). Kerry became, along with Larry Thurlow, one of the most decorated officers in the "brown water navy." Yet he had also become a more uncommitted soldier than ever in the wake of the combat experiences for which he had earned a chestful of shiny medals and the horrific memories that came with them.

http://www.thehistorynet.com/ah/blkerryinvietnam/index.html

[Rocketman95]

rimrocker, it's useless.

The new American hero, according to the RNC and their cronies, is a cokehead who bravely volunteers for service in the South, thousands of miles away from any real combat. President Bush, you're a real American hero.

[SamFisher]

I don't know why you guys bother with Roxran, he has been oiling his shaft and lubing up his firing mechanism, and the fumes from that combined with the thought of delivering a few steaming loads of hot lead at the range tomorrow has driven him into a frenzy where he is unable to think or reason in a rational matter.

[rimrocker]

You guys are right... it's not really about what really happened or a search for the truth. These guys (Hannity, SBVFT, and others) just don't care if they lie or not... all that is required is for whatever they say to be effective on some level and we can see from the threads over the last few days that it is effective as we have a bunch of folks who parrot the RNC/Grover's Group/Limbaugh/Hannity-type talking points.

My Mama raised me differently I guess... I don't think I could lie in order to damage someone.

On another point, I read where Kerry talked with McCain a lot during the South Carolina primary and arranged for some vets to go down there to try and counter the Bush rumors that McCain betreayed the US during his captivity. He also arranged for some vets to hang out with and support Kerrey when he was reliving some of his worst moments in Vietnam a few years ago. So, Kerry is really conniving... even though he didn't acknowledge he did such things for McCain and Kerrey, he had to know that at some point he would win the Dem nomination and it would come out as he was running for President thus making his image look better then the thieving flip-flopping liberal he really is...

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by ROXRAN
The documentation in it's entirety will be available August 15th, 2004...reserve your copy now!

Odd that you call that the truth, since the author of the book didn't serve with Kerry, one of the contributors of the book has already retracted the statement he made in the book, and the doctor who claims to have treated Kerry isn't even the physician who signed off on it.

The fact is that Kerry is a war hero. He turned the boat around, he risked his life and exposed himself to enemy fire in order to pull a green beret soldier out of the water. Nobody disputes that. That alone makes him a hero.

[Oski2005]

I think the guy just retracted his retraction. Flip flopper.

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by ROXRAN
Is the book politically slanted? Probably, but if direct evidence is pronounced from persons associated with Kerry, and listed as such, it then is an issue worthy of examination in light of the truth...Especially when the information via persons related to Kerry's military venture are from multiple sources and in agreement with what I ascertain as definite acts of being shady, unethical, and downright repugnant!....It seems to be cited that two of John Kerry's three Purple Heart decorations resulted from self-inflicted wounds, not suffered under enemy fire....Is this not shady? repugnant?, unethical?...

It is cited that all three of Kerry's Purple Hearts were for minor injuries, not requiring a single hour of hospitalization...This clearly taints the merits of earning these purple hearts...Why not give them out to all the veterans who get blisters in harm's way?...

What about the culmination of Kerry's reckless behavior which convinced his colleagues that he had to go -- becoming the only Swift Boat veteran to serve only four months...This is alarming in view of his unusual mannerisms as cited thus far...The thing is there is more...A lot more, that comes from multiple sources which summize the point of Kerry being unfit for command...I am in dire need of the truth, so I suggest everyone to stop the ignorant snippets...Get the information August 15th...Learn the facts of how we cannot allow this person with so much lacking into the Presidential office...

Incorrect. One wound is claimed to have come from richochet of friendly fire. THat's not self inflicted. Even if the purple hearts weren't deserved(I think the were but for the sake of argument let's pretend) that still doesn't reflect Kerry's shadiness just the unworthyness of those who handed the medals out. It's another attack on the brave veterans who awarded our country's medals.

Kerry left Viet Nam because of his three purple hearts, not because his colleagues had to go.

If you are really looking for the truth, you wouldn't be so quick to jump at the word of people who gave him glowing reviews during his service, and then later changed their story.

[BrianKagy]

Oops (http://humaneventsonline.com.edgesuite.net/unfit_aff.html)

Kranish has an interesting relationship with Kerry.

[mc mark]

Originally posted by BrianKagy
Oops (http://humaneventsonline.com.edgesuite.net/unfit_aff.html)

Kranish has an interesting relationship with Kerry.

He said he regrets signing the affidavit. What's your point Brian?

[SamFisher]

Originally posted by BrianKagy
Oops (http://humaneventsonline.com.edgesuite.net/unfit_aff.html)

Kranish has an interesting relationship with Kerry.
To descend into the muck of this disgraceful sideshow for a second:

Wow, I see affidavits all day long, and that might be one of the most wishy washy, ****-tiest, sleaziest ones I have ever seen.

Now, an affidavit is where you swear, under penalty of perjury, that something is true with respect to your personal knowledge.

Here's the operative statement of this affidavit:

"For example, in connection with his Silver Star, I was never informed that he had simply shot a wounded, fleeing Viet Cong in the back."

First off, this statement doesn't exactly make Kerry look culpable -- to the contrary, it makes the people trying to discredit him look worse. If he wasn't informed of it contemporaneously, does that make it more or less likely for it to have happened? Easy.

Second, it is an inherently empty statement. I could easily swear out an affidavit under penalty of perjury that says more or less the same thing. Similarly, I could swear out a statement saying "I was never informed that Kerry worships Satan and murders baby koala bears in his spare time" under penalty of perjury and be completely, 100% comfortable with that statement.

It's a classic implication by negative inference, something that you have no personal knowledge of -- yet verbally crafted so that you can swear to it in an affidavit without fear of perjuring yourself.

Very, very slimy; In my opinion, an affidavit like this, while citable for a political huckster like O'Neill, would be inadmissible on most issues in any court of law that I've ever been in.

How am I not surprised that tricked out affidavits are being used in this disgraceful, shameful episode of the campaign.....:rolleyes:

It's really too much, have you no sense of deceny sir?

oh, and by the way, in case anybody is distracted by this...., THE ECONOMY IS SHOWING WORRISOME SIGNS OF SLOWDOWN, THE MARKETS ARE TANKING, THE FEDERAL BUDGET DEFICIT IS AT RECORD LEVELS, THE SHIITES HAVE BEGUN ANOTHER REBELLION IN IRAQ, AND AL QAEDA IS STILL ACTIVELY TRYING TO ATTACK US
...now back to your regularly scheduled diversion.

[bnb]

Sometimes i wonder why these guys would sign the affidavit in the first place. It wasn't asif it were testimony under oath that they had no choice but to give. I would have thought there would be an unspoken rule for vets that you don't criticize another vet for his time in combat. Sort of a military version of the What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. Not that they would necessarily support his campaign -- but that they would at least support his time in the military.

But i guess not.

I guess everyone loves a microphone.

[mc mark]

Originally posted by bnb

I guess everyone loves a microphone.

I hate em! I can act my ass off in front of a house of 2500 people (I've done it before) but you put a mic in my hands and I freeze like a baby koala bear!

[BrianKagy]

What's your point Brian?

LOL.
It's really too much, have you no sense of deceny sir?

No, I have no sense of deceny.

ECONOMY IS SHOWING WORRISOME SIGNS OF SLOWDOWN, THE MARKETS ARE TANKING, THE FEDERAL BUDGET DEFICIT IS AT RECORD LEVELS, THE SHIITES HAVE BEGUN ANOTHER REBELLION IN IRAQ, AND AL QAEDA IS STILL ACTIVELY TRYING TO ATTACK US


Well, I know all that, but I thought the discussion was about the supposed backtracking of one of the Kerry bashers and I thought the relationship between the person reporting the supposed backtracking and the Kerry campaign was of interest, contextually speaking.

If you would like us to begin shutting down and/or deleting topics that are irrelevant, say the word.

[SamFisher]

Originally posted by BrianKagy
LOL.


No, I have no sense of deceny.

Heh, I already knew that, and neither do I, but that's beside the point -- I was talking about the SBV's and referencing what's-his- name's famous line to Senator McCarthy back in the day...



Well, I know all that, but I thought the discussion was about the supposed backtracking of one of the Kerry bashers and I thought the relationship between the person reporting the supposed backtracking and the Kerry campaign was of interest, contextually speaking.

I agree, I was referring to the spectacle of the SBV's as a whole, rather than you or this thread specifically; The only reason why I quoted you was because you had the link to the affidavit.

If you would like us to begin shutting down and/or deleting topics that are irrelevant, say the word.
I would, but you could make me a moderator instead! I'd be fair and balanced!

[BrianKagy]

I would, but you could make me a moderator instead! I'd be fair and balanced!

We can't have moderators with political leanings. They have to be 100 percent objective, like me.

I think this country needs to make up its mind whether it thinks military service is a qualification for the office of the presidency, or not. Half the country thought it was of crucial importance in 1992 and 1996 but in 2000 and 2004 decided that not only didn't it matter, but it was probably made up if it happened anyway.

Meanwhile the other half of the country continually dismissed military service as a relic of a bygone and irrelevant era, something many young Americans were smart enough to avoid in 1968. That is, until their party nominated Vietnam veterans in 2000 and 2004. Suddenly, the erstwhile defenders of draft avoidance became hawkish prosecutors of it, attacking even half-productive overseas-service evasions such as volunteering for the National Guard.

It's been interesting to watch.

[RocketMan Tex]

Originally posted by BrianKagy

I think this country needs to make up its mind whether it thinks military service is a qualification for the office of the presidency, or not. Half the country thought it was of crucial importance in 1992 and 1996 but in 2000 and 2004 decided that not only didn't it matter, but it was probably made up if it happened anyway.

Meanwhile the other half of the country continually dismissed military service as a relic of a bygone and irrelevant era, something many young Americans were smart enough to avoid in 1968. That is, until their party nominated Vietnam veterans in 2000 and 2004. Suddenly, the erstwhile defenders of draft avoidance became hawkish prosecutors of it, attacking even half-productive overseas-service evasions such as volunteering for the National Guard.

It's been interesting to watch.

Like the young man who is playing Toyota Center this weekend says, "It's a Sign of the Times". The pendulum is forever swinging back and forth...in 2004 it is forth and in 2008 it will be back again. It's simply the nature of the whorehouse world we call politics.

[basso]

Originally posted by Chump
please document ANY "shady, unethical" or "repugnant" behavior Kerry displayed while in the military


how's this:

as his press release (http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0707a.html) makes clear, "Kerry volunteered for the United States Navy after college and served from 1966 through 1970 rising to the rank of Lieutenant, Junior Grade. Afterwards, Kerry continued his military service in the United States Naval Reserves through 1978.".

then, this, which the NYTimes wrote about (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/24/politics/campaign/24VET.html?ex=1398225600&en=3fb3db1485d5aace&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND), last april in a piece titled "Kerry's Antiwar Past Is a Delicate Issue in His Campaign":

"Two weeks later, he married Julia Thorne, and on a trip to Europe with his new bride, Mr. Kerry, the 26-year-old ex-lieutenant took a taxicab from Paris to a suburban villa. The son of a diplomat, Mr. Kerry had managed to arrange a private meeting with North Vietnamese and Vietcong emissaries to the peace talks."

so, while a lieutenant in the Naval Reserves, John Kerry conducted surreptitious talks w/ the North Vietnamese and Vietcong, with whom we were at war (the times article is incorrect about Kerry's status at the time). Seems borderline treasonous to me...

[Mulder]

Originally posted by basso
how's this:

as his press release (http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0707a.html) makes clear, "Kerry volunteered for the United States Navy after college and served from 1966 through 1970 rising to the rank of Lieutenant, Junior Grade. Afterwards, Kerry continued his military service in the United States Naval Reserves through 1978.".

then, this, which the NYTimes wrote about (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/24/politics/campaign/24VET.html?ex=1398225600&en=3fb3db1485d5aace&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND), last april in a piece titled "Kerry's Antiwar Past Is a Delicate Issue in His Campaign":

"Two weeks later, he married Julia Thorne, and on a trip to Europe with his new bride, Mr. Kerry, the 26-year-old ex-lieutenant took a taxicab from Paris to a suburban villa. The son of a diplomat, Mr. Kerry had managed to arrange a private meeting with North Vietnamese and Vietcong emissaries to the peace talks."


so, while a lieutenant in the Naval Reserves, John Kerry conducted surreptitious talks w/ the North Vietnamese and Vietcong, with whom we were at war (the times article is incorrect about Kerry's status at the time). Seems borderline treasonous to me...


Nobody got mad when bj and hawkeye did it...

[Chump]

Originally posted by basso
how's this:

as his press release (http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0707a.html) makes clear, "Kerry volunteered for the United States Navy after college and served from 1966 through 1970 rising to the rank of Lieutenant, Junior Grade. Afterwards, Kerry continued his military service in the United States Naval Reserves through 1978.".

then, this, which the NYTimes wrote about (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/24/politics/campaign/24VET.html?ex=1398225600&en=3fb3db1485d5aace&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND), last april in a piece titled "Kerry's Antiwar Past Is a Delicate Issue in His Campaign":

"Two weeks later, he married Julia Thorne, and on a trip to Europe with his new bride, Mr. Kerry, the 26-year-old ex-lieutenant took a taxicab from Paris to a suburban villa. The son of a diplomat, Mr. Kerry had managed to arrange a private meeting with North Vietnamese and Vietcong emissaries to the peace talks."

so, while a lieutenant in the Naval Reserves, John Kerry conducted surreptitious talks w/ the North Vietnamese and Vietcong, with whom we were at war (the times article is incorrect about Kerry's status at the time). Seems borderline treasonous to me...


ahh basso's selective editing strikes again

more about Kerry's Paris trip you selectively forgot to include:


"He says he does not remember who else was in the room except for Nguyen Thi Binh, the Vietcong spokeswoman in Paris, who was then bedeviling the Nixon administration by issuing peace proposals it considered little more than propaganda.

"It's not a big deal," he says now. "People were dropping in. It was a regular sort of deal." Senator Eugene J. McCarthy had visited Paris months earlier, and other officials often sat in with the Vietnamese and held news conferences afterward.

Mr. Kerry said he considered it a fact-finding mission. The talks had been stalemated for months. Still on the table was a year-old Vietcong initiative that included an offer to release American prisoners of war when American forces pulled out.

Mr. Kerry recalled "testing what I thought the lay of the land was" in the meeting. "Not that you take their word for their word, but because you sort of put the pieces of the puzzle together."

Asked why the Vietnamese would meet with a 26-year-old, Mr. Kerry suggested it was because he had been on television as a veteran opposed to the war. He acknowledged that they might have been trying to use him to shape American public opinion.

"I knew that, and I was trying to be careful about what was real and what wasn't real," he said. "I wanted to really probe. I wanted to look them in the eyes, and say, `Well, what happens if this happens? And what does this mean?' "

Mr. Kerry came home, and before a Senate hearing 10 months later he criticized President Nixon for not accepting Mrs. Binh's assurances that the Vietnamese would release American prisoners of war if U.S. troops simply left."

[rimrocker]

From Media Matters...
_____________

While much has been written about the identity and history of John E. O'Neill -- one of the authors of the forthcoming Regnery book Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry (whose links in the GOP go back to his days as "protégé of Nixon-era dirty trickster Charles Colson") -- little has been said about his co-author, Jerome R. Corsi, PhD.

• Corsi on Islam: "a worthless, dangerous Satanic religion"

• Corsi on Catholicism: "Boy buggering in both Islam and Catholicism is okay with the Pope as long as it isn't reported by the liberal press"

• Corsi on Muslims: "RAGHEADS are Boy-Bumpers as clearly as they are Women-Haters -- it all goes together"

• Corsi on "John F*ing Commie Kerry": "After he married TerRAHsa, didn't John Kerry begin practicing Judiasm? He also has paternal grandparents that were Jewish. What religion is John Kerry?"

• Corsi on Senator "FAT HOG" Clinton: "Anybody ask why HELLary couldn't keep BJ Bill satisfied? Not lesbo or anything, is she?"

Unfit for Command has received wide media coverage recently, in part because of hype on The Drudge Report and the website Human Events Online, which is offering a sample chapter via e-mail, and in part as a result of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth's new attack ad on Kerry's service in Vietnam. The book has skyrocketed to the top of the Amazon.com "Top Sellers" list, as of August 6.

Corsi received his PhD in political science from Harvard University in 1972; his dissertation was titled Prior Restraint, Prior Punishment, and Political Dissent; a Moral and Legal Evaluation. Previously, he co-authored a report on the 1967 riots in Cleveland, titled "Shoot-out in Cleveland: Black Militants and the Police," published in 1968 by the National Commission on the Causes and Prevention of Violence.

In addition to Unfit for Command, Corsi has written books on a variety of subjects, and is currently the vice president of development and senior editor of U.S. Financial Marketing Group. Recently, he has been contributing articles to the website wintersoldier.com on the subject of Senator John Kerry's record as an anti-war activist following his service in the Vietnam War.

In this series of articles, Corsi has accused Kerry of "violating the legal provision against negotiating with foreign powers (18 U.S.C. 953) and the constitutional prohibition against giving support to our nation's enemies during wartime (Article III, Section 3)"; asserted that Kerry's actions as an anti-war activist amounted to treason; and claimed that "Kerry and the VVAW consistently coordinated their efforts with Communists." Corsi asserted that, in 1971, Kerry's anti-war activism amounted to a proclamation by him that "Communists were right in maintaining that American values were corrupt and that the only solution was for America to capitulate so Communism could continue to spread." As Media Matters for America has noted, Kerry was quoted expressing exactly the opposite sentiment in a December 12, 1971, Boston Globe article: "I don't like Communists," Kerry said. "In fact, I hate them. I hate all totalitarians. I'm totally dedicated to representative, pluralistic, free democracy."

On August 6, Salon.com's Joe Conason documented links between Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and the conservative online forum www.FreeRepublic.com. Conason noted that the designer of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth website is Robert A. Hahn, a director of the Free Republic Network, a conservative activist organization affiliated with FreeRepublic.com. Scott Swett, who is listed as the webmaster of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth website, swiftvets.com, also appeared on FOX News Channel host Sean Hannity's August 5 radio show to discuss the group. Swett posts frequently to FreeRepublic.com, using the pseudonym "Interesting Times," and is also a director of the Free Republic Network. The wintersoldier.com website to which Swett has contributed articles is a project of the Free Republic Network.

Corsi is also a frequent participant in FreeRepublic.com's online forums, posting under the pseudonym "jrlc" since 2001. (Click here to read a full set of Corsi's posts; click here to read the post in which "jrlc" admits to being Jerome Corsi.)

On FreeRepublic.com, Corsi has, among other things, said that "ragheads" are "boy buggers"; referred to "John F*ing Kerry"; called Senator Hillary Clinton a "Fat Hog"; referred to her daughter as "Chubby Chelsie" Clinton; referred to Janet Reno as "Janet Rhino"; called Katie Couric "Little Katie Communist"; suggested Kerry was "practicing Judaism"; and expressed the wish that a small plane that had crashed into a building in Los Angeles had instead crashed into the set of NBC'S The West Wing, thereby killing actor Martin Sheen.

Following are some examples. [Spelling and punctuation are Corsi's own.]

On Catholics and the Pope

CORSI: Maybe while he's there he can tell the UN what he's going to do about the sexual crimes committed by "priests" in his "Church" during his tenure. Or, maybe that's the connection -- boy buggering in both Islam and Catholicism is okay with the Pope as long as it isn't reported by the liberal press. (03/03/2003)

CORSI: So this is what the last days of the Catholic Church are going to look like. Buggering boys undermines the moral base and the laywers rip the gold off the Vatican altars. We may get one more Pope, when this senile one dies, but that's probably about it. (12/16/2002)

On Islam and Arabs

CORSI: Let's see exactly why it isn't the case that Islam is a worthless, dangerous Satanic religion? Where's the proof to the contrary? (04/24/2004)

CORSI: Islam is like a virus -- it affects the mind -- maybe even better as an analogy -- it is a cancer that destroys the body it infects... No doctor would hesitate to eliminate cancer cells from the body. (11/26/02)

CORSI: Islam is a peaceful religion as long as the women are beaten, the boys buggered, and the infidels killed. (11/22/2002)

CORSI: How's this as an analogy -- the Koran is simply the "software" for producing deviant cancer cell political behavior and violence in human beings. (02/15/2002)

CORSI: Think the liberal press will ever let out that these 2 were lovers -- typical Islamic boy-buggering -- older man, younger man -- black Muslims? I doubt it. Not a pretty picture, but one certain to be hidden by PC media. (11/08/2002)

CORSI: Isn't the Democratic Party the official SODOMIZER PROTECTION ASSOCIATION of AMERICA -- oh, I forgot, it was just an accident that Clintoon's first act in office was to promote "gays in the military." RAGHEADS are Boy-Bumpers as clearly as they are Women-Haters -- it all goes together. (11/18/2001)

On Senator John Kerry

CORSI: First let's undermine the US in Vietnam. Then we can go for gay marriage. When you get to be Pres. JFK-lite, there will be no end to how much of America we can destroy. (05/17/2004)

CORSI: Just don't let anybody put a tablet with the Ten Commandments in front of the school where that girl wants to wear a Muslim scarf -- OH, No --- then the RATS would complain. Anti-Christian, Anti-American -- just like their Presidential Candidate -- Jean Francois Kerrie. (03/31/2004)

CORSI: After he married TerRAHsa, didn't John Kerry begin practicing Judiasm? He also has paternal gradparents that were Jewish. What religion is John Kerry? (03/04/2004)

CORSI: Kerry has a long history of Communist supporters. (03/12/2004)

CORSI: Kerry offers a clear choice. Anti-American hatred. (02/08/2004)

CORSI: John F*ing Commie Kerry and Commie Ted [Kennedy] discuss their plan to hand America over to our nation's enemies. (02/04/2004)

On former President Bill Clinton

CORSI: When is this guy going to admit he's simply an anti-American communist? Won't he and his leftist wife simply go away???? Enough already. (02/24/2002)

CORSI: Hey, Bill, didn't you steal enough when you had the chance? (02/15/2002)

CORSI: Clinton doesn't get it. Afganistan, and other Moslim countries, are not poor because they lack money. The culture itself is anti-modern. But then, maybe Slick did get it and he just wants to create another bork barrel from which he and his wife can draw slop. (02/15/2002)

CORSI: Clinton was more interested in gays in the military than going after OBL. Clinton had Janet Rhino pushing the FBI to deport a child to Castro's nondemocratic Cuba, not searching out OBL sleepers in the USA. Clinton was too busy getting BJs in the Oval Office to do more than Wag the Dog after the Cole was hit. (05/16/2002)

On Senator Hillary Clinton

CORSI: HELL-ary loves the Arabs so much (kiss, kiss Mrs. Arab*RAT) -- wonder how she would look in a Burkha? (05/21/2002)

CORSI: Mullah Ali'Gore-ah is very proud of his new Bin Laden beard and he hopes others in the Democratic Party will follow his lead. Hell-ary is disappointed she cannot grow a beard, but her press secretary reminds us she can still enroll in flight school. (01/07/02)

CORSI: Let the FAT HOG run!!! [regarding a possible presidential bid] (08/30/2003)

CORSI: Hellary should resign and go away. What ever happened to the people she ran over with her car at Westchester Airport? Can't anybody sue this b*tch? (11/17/2002)

CORSI: Anybody ask why HELLary couldn't keep BJ Bill satisfied? Not lesbo or anything, is she? (06/08/2003)

On Chelsea Clinton

CORSI: According to Talk Magazine, Chubby Chelsea had a very great adventure on 9/11 in NYC and Hell-ary had the details wrong -- oh, it was terrible. (12/07/2001)

CORSI: Did the Journalist see Chubbie Chelsea among the wives. Little Katie Communist [Katie Couric] on the NBC Today show interviewed Hillary this morning and mom is worried sick about Chelsea. She was last seen in Kandahar at a Starbucks. But now, as Little Katie Communist sighed, "Who Knows?" Even British disinformation planted reports such as this grocery crap will be useful. Anyone with information about Chubbie Chelsea's whereabouts should post it now. Mom wants to know her daughter is out of harms way. Mom also wants to be at the center of the story. (11/29/2001)

CORSI: But the real question is: WHERE IS CHUBBIE CHELSEA? Is she in Kabul in danger, looking for a Starbucks? Waldo wants to know. Please, Little Katie Communist, HELP US FIND CHELSEA. THE SITUATION MAY BE URGENT. (11/29/2001)

CORSI: HILLARY SAYS CHELSEA IS MISSING AND JANET RHINO DOESN'T KNOW WHERE SHE IS? (11/28/2001)

On former Vice President Al Gore

CORSI: Gore isn't available for television. He is growing his regulation length Bin Laden beard. Mullah Ali'Gore-ah, as he now wishes to be called, is focused on his new career as a pilot. "Want to fly like bird," he says after his stint as a professor at Columbia. "No need to learn take-off or landing, just soar like bird and look at buildings." As to Florida, Mulllah Gore-ah says, "No big buildings," dismissing the importance of the state to his future plans." (12/15/2001)

On the Media

CORSI: Time to FREEP Chris Matthews of MSNBC. MSNBC is beginning to stand for "More Sh*t, Nothing But Communism." (05/16/2002)

CORSI: I didn't realize Little Katie Communist of the NBC Today Show knew how to hack a website. Finally something impressive from the little wimp. [responding to news that USA Today's website had been hacked and that the hackers were mocking President George W. Bush's Christianity] (07/12/2002)

CORSI: COMMUNISM -- it's simple NBC = NOTHING BUT COMMUNISM. (04/19/2004)

CORSI: Susan Estrogen -- even the voice grates. But then with supporters like her and Ted Kennedy, who needs enemies. Let Susan BLAH BLAH screatch -- only Chrissy Matthews whines better. (04/13/2004)

Assorted

CORSI: Perfect Liberal -- lesbian, self-absorbed, hates America, anxious to impose her values on everybody else. [on Martina Navratilova] (06/26/2002)

CORSI: And now we get Pooh-LEFTY pushed on us by the RATS as Minority Leader in the House -- here come the SanFrancisco liberals -- hope the RATS go back to focusing the debate on gay marriages and other pro-choice topics close to Pelosi's heart. (11/18/2002)

CORSI: Too bad the plane didn't crash into the TV set of the NBC show "THE LEFT WING" -- especially when Martin Sheen was "acting." (06/07/2003)

— D.B.B.

http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200408060010

[rimrocker]

Republicans' Dishonorable Charge
Now even John McCain has condemned the Swift Boat Veterans' outrageous attack on John Kerry's Vietnam record.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Joe Conason



Aug. 6, 2004 | "Dishonest and dishonorable" is how John McCain described the attack ad now appearing on television in several swing states, courtesy of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. Dishonest because the men who appear in the ad make false claims about John Kerry's wartime conduct and decorations. Dishonorable because these men have waited three decades to publicize their slurs, with partisan motives, during a presidential campaign.

With his passionate denunciation of the swift boat commercial and its sponsors, McCain again displayed the dignity and self-respect that once elevated him above other politicians. Calling on President Bush to repudiate the ugly anti-Kerry ad, McCain took a step back from his awkward embrace of the Republican ticket last month. "I can't believe the president would pull such a cheap stunt," he told reporters, while acknowledging that he didn't know whether Bush strategists were involved.

The response of the Bush spokesmen was bland but telling. They saw no reason to disavow or endorse the swift boat ads. White House press secretary Scott McClellan said that the president has never questioned Sen. Kerry's military service (as if he is in any position to do so). Although he suggested that all the "unregulated soft money" advertising should cease, he pointedly refused to condemn the swift boat ad. "The Bush-Cheney campaign has never and will never question John Kerry's service during Vietnam," echoed campaign press secretary Steve Schmidt.

When the White House and the Bush-Cheney campaign declined to follow his lead, the Arizona senator could hardly have been surprised. Nobody who understands American politics as well as McCain has any illusions about the game that the Republicans are playing here. It is a strategy that dates back to the racially inflammatory Willie Horton ad aired by an "independent" group in 1988, and that was used against McCain himself in 2000 when another "independent" group aired ads against him during the Republican primaries.

The Republican orientation of the Swift Boat Veterans organization is transparently obvious, despite the inclination of some journalists to pretend otherwise. From stern to bow, they're strictly GOP.

As previously noted in this space, the group was organized last spring with the assistance of Merrie Spaeth, a Republican public relations executive from Houston whose late husband, Tex Lezar, ran for Texas lieutenant governor on George W. Bush's ticket in 1994.

Its guiding spirit is John E. O'Neill, a partner in Lezar's law firm and an early protégé of Nixon-era dirty trickster Charles Colson. (O'Neill's latest contribution to the cause is a book titled "Unfit for Command," selling fast thanks to promotion by the Drudge Report.) Its Web site was put up courtesy of William Franke, a St. Louis businessman with longstanding ties to Attorney General John Ashcroft and the Missouri Republican Party. Its chief financiers, according to the group's last quarterly IRS filing, are Houston builder Bob J. Perry and the Crow family, both major Republican donors from Texas.

Last November, the Dallas Morning News profiled the mysterious Perry. During the past four years, he has given more than $5 million to candidates and causes, nearly all of them Republican and extremely conservative. The article didn't say whether Perry himself ever served in the military. The Crow family, a clan of megadevelopers based in Dallas, are close Bush friends as well as generous backers. Harlan Crow is also a trustee of the George H.W. Bush Presidential Library Foundation.

In short, the financial supporters of the Swift Boat Vets are not exactly strangers to George W. Bush and Karl Rove.

Among the other leaders featured on the Swift Boat Vets' site are Alvin A. "Andy" Horne; Weymouth D. Symmes, also listed as the group's contact on its IRS filings; and Bill Lannom. Horne is a former Houston prosecutor who was once short-listed by former Sen. Phil Gramm, R-Texas, for an appointment as U.S. attorney. Symmes is a retired banker from Missoula, Mont., who along with his wife has donated more than $5,000 to Republican candidates and committees since 2000 (including $1,000 to Bush-Cheney 2004).

Lannom works for Iowa athletic-wear company owned by his staunchly Republican family. As his mother once explained to a local historian, "We've all been active, all my sons have been active in politics." She charmingly recalled that the Lannoms' antagonism toward Democrats dates all the way back to FDR.

The hired help employed by the Swift Vets committee is thoroughly partisan, too. Aside from Spaeth and Thomas Rupprath, the private detective she recommended to provide research services, the group's IRS filing names several experienced Washington political operatives. The June 30 filing shows payments to Robert A. Hahn, a right-wing Internet activist and Web designer who also runs something called the Free Republic Network (apparently an affiliate of the extremist Free Republic Web site); and to Tom Wyld, a Navy veteran and former director of public relations for the NRA Institute for Legislative Action, the lobbying arm of the National Rifle Association.

The White House has deniability, to be sure, if charged with complicity in this campaign. The question is whether its deniability is plausible -- or risible.

As for the accuracy of the Republican veterans' accusations, they can be tested against the testimony of the men who served under Kerry's command -- all of whom but one have repeatedly endorsed his courage, his decency, and his candidacy. Denigration of Kerry's record should also be measured against the sterling evaluations that he received during the actual time of his service, including by Adm. Roy Hoffman, who now chairs the Swift Boat Veterans group.

No doubt the Republicans hope that attacking Kerry will distract from important issues they would prefer not to discuss or debate. But their campaign is backfiring, as drawing fresh attention to Vietnam does not flatter the candidate who avoided service there.


- - - - - - - - - - - -

About the writer
Joe Conason writes a twice weekly column for Salon. He also writes a weekly column for the New York Observer. His new book, "Big Lies: The Right-Wing Propaganda Machine and How It Distorts the Truth," is now available. Join Joe Conason along with Ann Richards, David Talbot and others on the Salon Cruise

http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2004/08/06/mccain_on_swift_boat_veterans/print.html

[basso]

Originally posted by Mulder
Nobody got mad when bj and hawkeye did it...

i heard frank and hotlips were pissed, and trapper john was so mad he just left and got his own series.

[IROC it]

Not so fast...

link to story of misquote of detraction... (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/politics/2723352)

Aug. 7, 2004, 12:44AM
Vet: Retraction of Kerry claim was a misquote
Cox News Service


WASHINGTON - The controversy surrounding ads questioning John Kerry's war record grew Friday when a key figure in the veterans group airing the ads was quoted in the Boston Globe retracting one of his central allegations.

But later in the day, retired Lt. Cmdr. George Elliott issued a statement saying he had been misquoted.

The ad, sponsored by an anti-Kerry organization called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, features 13 Vietnam veterans accusing the Democratic presidential nominee of betraying his shipmates and telling lies to win medals in Vietnam.

Elliott, one of the 13 accusers in the ad, was one of Kerry's superiors in Vietnam when Kerry was awarded medals for heroic actions, including the Silver Star, the Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts.

"John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam," Elliott says in the ad.

In a signed affidavit he provided to the ad sponsors on July 21, 2004, Elliott suggested Kerry did not deserve his Silver Star.

At issue is an event in which Kerry killed a fleeing Viet Cong guerrilla while on patrol on the Mekong River. According to accounts provided by Kerry and his swift boat crewmates to Kerry's biographers, Kerry left his boat and pursued the guerrilla because he was armed with a Russian-made rocket launcher capable of penetrating armor.

Kerry has denied shooting the guerrilla in the back.

Republican Sen. John McCain, also a Vietnam veteran, called the attack ad dishonorable and dishonest, and urged the Bush administration to also denounce the ad. The administration distanced itself but did not condemn the ad.

link to story of misquote of detraction... (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/politics/2723352)

[FranchiseBlade]

This guy is a bigger flip flopper than Bush or kerry. The funny thing is that on MSNBC they showed this guys reports on Kerry back during Nam, and he wrote glowing reviews of what Kerry was doing, saying that they had never seen such brave actions and things like that. Even in '96 he spoke on behalf of Kerry and supported him in his election and introduced him at some speaking functions.

Now for some reason he has changed his mind, changed it back, and changed it again.

I think what it comes down to is that these guys are upset by what Kerry did after the war and their bitterness has lead them down this road of claims that not one of them can back up.

[ROXRAN]

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade
This guy is a bigger flip flopper than Bush or kerry. The funny thing is that on MSNBC they showed this guys reports on Kerry back during Nam, and he wrote glowing reviews of what Kerry was doing, saying that they had never seen such brave actions and things like that. Even in '96 he spoke on behalf of Kerry and supported him in his election and introduced him at some speaking functions.

Now for some reason he has changed his mind, changed it back, and changed it again.

I think what it comes down to is that these guys are upset by what Kerry did after the war and their bitterness has lead them down this road of claims that not one of them can back up.

Flipflopper?...I see the word made famous by Kerry's actions has inspired you to use this wording to paintbrush actuality (otherwise known as the truth)...and the truth is he was misquoted...

Even if he wasn't misquoted....which he was!....You have multiple persons in a gathered Vietnam photo shoot, claiming their concern, and apprehension about Kerry's motives as it relates to how they cannot stand by and see someone so unfit for command seek the highest office...

Kerry threw some medals or ribbons he disregarded...A proud moment for him...but regardless of this, the point of these men speaking out, have to do with the truth...They knew him. They gathered with him. They spent time with him...and nearly all in that now-famous photo have severe reservations about his command...Why? Don't tell me this is about Kerry's proud moment!...If it was one or even two bitter individuals jealous or envy of Kerry's rank or ease of gathering 3 purple hearts so rediculous in merit, as it seems...I would be cautious in examining the speak...But this ill-speak towards Kerry comes from just about every hero in that now-famous black and white photo...

Too many sources...too much agreement...I will be so interested in the testimony in the book from these men...Either we have lots of Vietnam heroes who are liars...or we have the truth from multiple source which all point the finger squarely at Kerry,...clearly unfit for command...

[Preston27]

If those veterans writing the book voted truthfully in a poll, I bet 90% of them would be Republicans.

That's politics folks, and that's why politics suck.

[basso]

ahhh, the retraction that wasn't. dowdification lives!

http://humaneventsonline.com.edgesuite.net/unfit_aff.html

--
Anti-Kerry Vietnam Veterans Hold Strong

The following statement from Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is in response to an article appearing in the morning edition of the Boston Globe (“Veteran Retracts Criticism of Kerry”) which implies that one Vietnam Veteran wishes to retract an affidavit he signed regarding John Kerry’s actions during and after Kerry’s time in Vietnam. The signed affidavit can be seen below.

"Captain George Elliott describes an article appearing in today’s edition of the Boston Globe by Mike Kranish as extremely inaccurate and highly misstating his actual views. He reaffirms his statement in the current advertisement paid for by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, Captain Elliott reaffirms his affidavit in support of that advertisement, and he reaffirms his request that the ad be played. [See both affidavits below.]

“Additional documentation will follow. The article by Mr. Kranish is particularly surprising given page 102 of Mr. Kranish’s own book quoting John Kerry as acknowledging that he killed a single, wounded, fleeing Viet Cong soldier whom he was afraid would turn around.

“Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has more than 250 supporters who are revealing first hand, eyewitness accounts of numerous incidents concerning John Kerry’s military service record. The organization will continue to discuss much of what John Kerry has reported as fact concerning his four-month tour of duty in Vietnam.”

[gwayneco]

Apparently Mike Kranish, the reporter in question, is a moron.

See:

http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2004/08/kranish_is_cook.html

http://vodkapundit.com/archives/006400.php

I am also amused at how the libs are quoting mediammaters.org to question the funding of the Swift Boaters while mediamatters.org is fronted by Bush-hating billionaire George Soros.

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by ROXRAN
Flipflopper?...I see the word made famous by Kerry's actions has inspired you to use this wording to paintbrush actuality (otherwise known as the truth)...and the truth is he was misquoted...

Even if he wasn't misquoted....which he was!....You have multiple persons in a gathered Vietnam photo shoot, claiming their concern, and apprehension about Kerry's motives as it relates to how they cannot stand by and see someone so unfit for command seek the highest office...

Kerry threw some medals or ribbons he disregarded...A proud moment for him...but regardless of this, the point of these men speaking out, have to do with the truth...They knew him. They gathered with him. They spent time with him...and nearly all in that now-famous photo have severe reservations about his command...Why? Don't tell me this is about Kerry's proud moment!...If it was one or even two bitter individuals jealous or envy of Kerry's rank or ease of gathering 3 purple hearts so rediculous in merit, as it seems...I would be cautious in examining the speak...But this ill-speak towards Kerry comes from just about every hero in that now-famous black and white photo...

Too many sources...too much agreement...I will be so interested in the testimony in the book from these men...Either we have lots of Vietnam heroes who are liars...or we have the truth from multiple source which all point the finger squarely at Kerry,...clearly unfit for command...

Even without the apparent misquote he's a flip flopper. During the war he gave Kerry glowing reviews, praising his actions, leadership and valor. In 1996 he was speaking on behalf of Kerry. Now all of a sudden he's singing a different story.

Not one person from that ad served on the boats with Kerry. The people who did serve on Kerry's boats all praise him. Some of the people in the very ad, praised Kerry's service during the war. It was only after Kerry spoke out against the war after coming back that the bitterness starts to come out. These people dont' have one credible witness, or any evidence to back up their claims.

[IROC it]

HAVE-IT-2-WAYS ALERT....

I hear the Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah-bulances coming now!

And the footsteps of the attorneys cahsing them...

[gwayneco]

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade
The people who did serve on Kerry's boats all praise him.

That is factually incorrect.

[Rocketman95]

Too bad the coward in the White House doesn't have any commanding officers who served with him in Vietnam to flip-flop about his service.

[mc mark]

Franks Says Kerry Qualified for President

By WILLIAM C. MANN, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Retired Gen. Tommy Franks, producer of the early military successes in Afghanistan (news - web sites) and Iraq (news - web sites), said Sunday that criticism of John Kerry (news - web sites)'s war record is political hyperbole and Kerry is "absolutely" qualified to be commander in chief.

A year into retirement, Franks also said he has not decided whether to endorse President Bush (news - web sites) for re-election. "I don't know yet. I'm leaning in that direction," he said on ABC's "This Week."

Franks, whose hometown is Midland, Texas — where the president and first lady Laura Bush grew up — has been making television appearances in recent days to publicize his just-published memoirs, "American Soldier."

"Do you think Senator Kerry is qualified to be commander in chief?" Franks was asked.

"Absolutely!" he said.

But like the criticism of Kerry, the retired general said the Democratic nominee's recent harsh words about the war plan Franks created in Afghanistan was motivated by politics and his failure to capture al-Qaida network leader Osama bin Laden (news - web sites).

"I think a presidential election year is a marvelous thing. I think Senator Kerry is a patriot. And I think what ... what we're doing is, we're seeing an attempt to sort of draw the lines between the two parties in this country. And I wouldn't have it any other way," Franks said.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&ncid=696&e=5&u=/ap/20040808/ap_on_el_pr/franks_campaign

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by gwayneco
That is factually incorrect. ok All minus 1.

[nyrocket]

Originally posted by BrianKagy
I think this country needs to make up its mind whether it thinks military service is a qualification for the office of the presidency, or not. Half the country thought it was of crucial importance in 1992 and 1996 but in 2000 and 2004 decided that not only didn't it matter, but it was probably made up if it happened anyway.

Meanwhile the other half of the country continually dismissed military service as a relic of a bygone and irrelevant era, something many young Americans were smart enough to avoid in 1968. That is, until their party nominated Vietnam veterans in 2000 and 2004. Suddenly, the erstwhile defenders of draft avoidance became hawkish prosecutors of it, attacking even half-productive overseas-service evasions such as volunteering for the National Guard.

You can't possibly be this facile.

[gwayneco]

Looks like the Kerry slimeistas are starting their counterattack:

from: http://www.crushkerry.com/article227.html
Dems Plan Assault on Vets

UPDATE: It’s starting. We guess David Brock over at Media Matters for America received a “Brown Book.” He attempts a character hit on Jerome Corsi, one of the authors of Unfit for Command.

The Democrat National Committee has prepared a full-scale assault against the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth to draw their character and veracity into question, according to one anonymous source inside the DNC. The campaign of character assassination is scheduled to coincide with the release of the book Unfit for Command which reveals inconvenient facts for the Kerry campaign.

“We have prepared what we call ‘Brown Books’ that contain damaging military records, personal credit histories, medical histories, psychiatric histories, divorce records, you name it,” our source told us. "We've got the goods on the Veterans who oppose Kerry."

The “Brown Books” are so called because of their distinctive plain brown covers, which contain no words. Some books have already been delivered to Kerry-friendly reporters. Others are on their way, our source told us. When asked if we could have a copy, our source declined, saying there is a limited number of “Brown Books” and they have been carefully inventoried to control in whose hands the books ended up.

Ultimately the “Brown Books” will end up in the hands of pro-Kerry news agencies and reporters. According to our source, who demanded to remain anonymous for fear of retribution, The New York Times is already on the hook to run a negative series on the Vets, as is the Boston Globe, which is owned by the Times. (Editor’s Note: The Globe has already been caught attempting to attack the veracity of George Elliott, Kerry’s commanding officer in Vietnam.)

In addition, the DNC has deployed a six member team from their press shop whose sole responsibility will be to spin and counter-spin stories about the members of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth with pro-Kerry media entities, like the Times.

When asked if this was just another example of John Kerry slandering Vietnam Vets – like he did in 1971 as a member of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War – our source snapped, “No! This is warfare. The only way we’re going to get out of this is to force everyone to question their motives and credibility.”

“If they want to spread rumors and stories about John Kerry, we’ll spread rumors and stories about them. And some of the things they did in Vietnam were a lot worse than what they say John Kerry did,” our source concluded ominously.

Stay tuned. We will keep you posted as this nasty story develops.

[RocketMan Tex]

Originally posted by gwayneco
Looks like the Kerry slimeistas are starting their counterattack

Character assassination begets character assassination.

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by gwayneco
[B]Looks like the Kerry slimeistas are starting their counterattack:



Yes, I think it's good that Democrats don't take lies, inaccurate attacks, and dirty politics lying down this year. It's about time that they got a backbone and fought back. Though, I wouldn't call them slimeistas for merely responding to a smear an inaccurate smear campaign.

[rimrocker]

Originally posted by gwayneco

He attempts a character hit on Jerome Corsi, one of the authors of Unfit for Command.




I think Corsi is the one who did a character hit on Corsi.

Regarding the "Brown Books," I'll withold full judgement until more facts are in, but that piece of info, like this whole article seems to be a case of Republican transference.

[ROXRAN]

Yall neo-demos should feel ashamed!...

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by ROXRAN
Yall neo-demos should feel ashamed!...

Ashamed of what? The neo-demos or anyone other than the Swift boat vets haven't done anything shameful.

[mc mark]

I feel ashamed because I don't use the word "yall."

;)