Kerry Raps Bush on Initial 9/11 Inaction

[IROC it]

link to the story (http://my.ev1.net/english/news/newsarticle.asp?articleID=31348033&subject=political)

Kerry Raps Bush on Initial 9/11 Inaction

John Kerry said Thursday he would have jumped into action more quickly than President Bush did on Sept. 11, 2001, raising the stakes in the political fight over terrorism as Bush warned that the United States can't afford to "grow timid and weary and afraid" in Iraq or elsewhere.

The Democratic challenger said he'd never waver
"I can fight a more effective, smarter and better war on terror that actually makes America safer," Kerry told Missouri voters.

Disputing that vow was a group of Vietnam veterans who unveiled a television ad challenging Kerry's medal-winning service in the war. Another veteran, Republican Sen. John McCain, put the president on the spot by urging the White House to condemn the "dishonest and dishonorable" commercial.

Bush's spokesman declined to do so.

Again, war and terrorism dominated a campaign day, with Bush trying to rekindle the rally-around-the-president passions that pushed his popularity to record heights after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Kerry, tied or slightly ahead of Bush in most polls, hopes to erase the president's advantages on issues of terrorism and national security after making gains during last week's Democratic National Convention.

Before leaving the White House for Ohio and Michigan, Bush signed a $417.5 billion wartime defense bill providing an additional $25 billion for Iraq and Afghanistan, body armor for troops and reinforced Humvee vehicles. Kerry, a four-term Massachusetts senator, missed the votes on the bill.

Thrusting the administration's terrorism-fighting efforts into the spotlight, the Justice Department announced that two leaders of a mosque in Albany, N.Y., were arrested in an alleged plot involving a scheme to buy a shoulder-fired missile. Some Democratic critics have accused the administration of orchestrating the release of terrorism alerts and arrests to maximize their political benefits, a charge denied by the White House.

Addressing minority journalists in the nation's capital, Kerry was asked what he would have done as president the moment he received word of the attacks on the World Trade Center. Bush spent seven minutes listening to "The Pet Goat" being read at a Florida elementary school after his chief of staff, Andrew Card, whispered, "America is under attack," as televisions cameras recorded the anxious scene.

"I would have told those kids very politely and nicely that the president of the United States had something that he needed to attend to,"[b/] Kerry said before flying to Missouri to resume his cross-country campaign trip.[b] "And I would have attended to it."

Former New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani came to Bush's defense, accusing Kerry of taking cues from moviemaker Michael Moore, whose documentary "Fahrenheit 9/11" questions the president's immediate reaction to the attacks.

"John Kerry is an indecisive candidate who has demonstrated an inconsistent position on the war on terror, who voted against funding for our troops at war and who cannot give a clear answer on his position concerning the decision to remove Saddam Hussein," the Republican said.

Kerry suggested that Bush wasn't up to the task. "Americans want to know that the person they choose as president has all of the skills and the ability, all of the mental toughness, all of the gut instinct necessary to be a strong commander in chief," he said, adding that there is a "clear choice" between Bush and himself.

"I come to the job of commander in chief with the rare, gratefully, but important experience of having fought in a war," Kerry said. "And I believe we need a commander in chief who understands the test before you send young people to war."

Bush served stateside in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War.

Kerry often suggests that a wartime president needs war experience, but the remark carried extra weight Thursday as a group of fellow veterans questioned his combat credentials.

"When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry," says Larry Thurlow, one of several veterans who criticizes Kerry in a new 60-second ad.

Thurlow didn't serve on Kerry's swiftboat, but says he witnessed the events that led to Kerry winning a Bronze Star and the last of his three Purple Hearts. Kerry's crewmates support the candidate and call him a hero.

"I deplore this kind of politics," McCain told The Associated Press. McCain, chairman of Bush's Arizona campaign, compared the ad to tactics used by Bush supporters against him during the bitterly contested 2000 GOP presidential primaries.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan did not denounce the ad
only the form of financing behind it. "The president thought he got rid of this unregulated soft money when he signed the bipartisan campaign finance reform into law," McClellan said. A chief sponsor of that bill, which Bush initially opposed, was McCain.

Bush made his second visit to Ohio in less than a week and fifth visit to Michigan in the last four weeks
a measure of how important the two states and their combined 37 electoral votes are to both candidates. They need 270 votes to win.

"People of Iraq are watching carefully right now," Bush said in Ohio. "Are we going to be a country of our word when we say people should be free
that we're willing to stand by our word? Or are we going to grow timid and weary and afraid of the barbaric behavior of a few?"

---
Way to think for yourself there, Kerry. So much for "distancing yourself" from the dirty politics and the Hollywood spin cycle.

Somebody didn't listen to his wifey now did he? (Like she really meant it anyway.)

[basso]

The Democratic challenger said he'd never waver
"I can fight a more effective, smarter and better war on terror that actually makes America safer," Kerry told Missouri voters.


Before leaving the White House for Ohio and Michigan, Bush signed a $417.5 billion wartime defense bill providing an additional $25 billion for Iraq and Afghanistan, body armor for troops and reinforced Humvee vehicles. Kerry, a four-term Massachusetts senator, missed the votes on the bill.

[underoverup]

How is Kerry playing dirty politics by reassuring the nation that he won't continue to sit and read a child’s book while the country is under attack? Moore was hardly the first person to bring up Bush's 'deer gaze into headlights' reaction to a terrorist attack, so you’re wrong on that point.

Let's consider for a moment that Moore was the first person to criticize Bush's reaction to the 9/11 attacks (he wasn’t not even close). Would this in anyway alter the fact that Bush sat reading to schoolchildren while passenger jets slammed into buildings around the country? Do you think that Moore slowed time down to make Bush appear to read the book longer?

What a decisive leader --- read to school kids or make split second decisions to save the nation. Unfortunately for Bush that’s a tough choice.

[Smokey]

The Pet Goat :D

[IROC it]

Originally posted by underoverup
How is Kerry playing dirty politics by reassuring the nation that he won't continue to sit and read a child’s book while the country is under attack?

How is Kerry going to "fight a more effective, smarter and better war on terror that actually makes America safer," by missing "the votes on the bill" that provided "an additional $25 billion for Iraq and Afghanistan, body armor for troops and reinforced Humvee vehicles?"

:confused:

No vote = a vote of "no." :mad: "Support our troops" there, John? :mad:

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by IROC it
How is Kerry going to "fight a more effective, smarter and better war on terror that actually makes America safer," by missing "the votes on the bill" that provided "an additional $25 billion for Iraq and Afghanistan, body armor for troops and reinforced Humvee vehicles?"

:confused:

No vote = a vote of "no." :mad: "Support our troops" there, John? :mad:

Kerry has already layed out his plan.

[IROC it]

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade
Kerry has already layed out his plan.

Right. Stonewall. Miss votes. Hamper the current admin, so he can be "daddy." :mad: Is "lil' Flip" at it again?

[Faos]

It's so easy now to sit back and say " I would have done this and that" after the fact.

I bet Kerry would have pulled out his trusty 8mm camera and shot film of himself telling the kids he had to leave, looking like a true hero again.

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by Faos
It's so easy now to sit back and say " I would have done this and that" after the fact.

I bet Kerry would have pulled out his trusty 8mm camera and shot film of himself telling the kids he had to leave, looking like a true hero again.

What's the matter Faos? Didn't you see my link earlier debunking the whole 8mm fiasco? Or do you just want to try and continue using misinformation in order to smear a candidate?

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by IROC it
Right. Stonewall. Miss votes. Hamper the current admin, so he can be "daddy." :mad: Is "lil' Flip" at it again?

No it's been discussed here before, and is available at his website.

[IROC it]

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade
No it's been discussed here before, and is available at his website.

I just discussed what's happening in the here and now. His website has a proposal.

We all know he constantly changes his mind. :rolleyes:

The issue should be current voting record in the senate... that is his current job. Grade at current job? D-

[Preston27]

I think Bush's immediate reaction to the attacks was appropriate, but the Iraq situation is where he went wrong. Iraq was not an imminent threat to us, but he sent troops over anyway while there were troops in Afghanistan already, burning several bridges between us and our allies in the process.

[nyrocket]

Originally posted by IROC it
No vote = a vote of "no."

Tell me - when the producers of the Sunday morning political talk shows call you begging for an appearance, how do you turn them down? Are you polite, curt, apologetic, gentle but firm?

Or do you refer all calls to your agent?

[IROC it]

Originally posted by nyrocket
Tell me - when the producers of the Sunday morning political talk shows call you begging for an appearance, how do you turn them down? Are you polite, curt, apologetic, gentle but firm?

Or do you refer all calls to your agent?

I wouldn't try and use any of your tactics. :p

[Faos]

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade
What's the matter Faos? Didn't you see my link earlier debunking the whole 8mm fiasco? Or do you just want to try and continue using misinformation in order to smear a candidate?

I guess I missed it. Did Snopes debunk that too?

I'll stand by my information.

[SamFisher]

Originally posted by IROC it


No vote = a vote of "no." :mad: "Support our troops" there, John? :mad:

Go back to civics 101, then pay closer attention when you get to the section on legislation.

Then maybe you can come back and contribute something useful; thus far you're rivaling somebody else in your lack of proficiency in such matters as politics, economics, etc...though you're about as prolific as he is.

[Rocketman95]

Originally posted by IROC it
The issue should be current voting record in the senate... that is his current job. Grade at current job? D-

That's better than the F from our brave soldier who volunteered for service in Vietnam. Oh wait, he's neither brave nor did he volunteer. He still gets the F, though. Coward.

[giddyup]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
That's better than the F from our brave soldier who volunteered for service in Vietnam. Oh wait, he's neither brave nor did he volunteer. He still gets the F, though. Coward.
You do know that such grading is entirely subjective?

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by IROC it
[b]"I would have told those kids very politely and nicely that the president of the United States had something that he needed to attend to,"[b/] Kerry said before flying to Missouri to resume his cross-country campaign trip.[b] "And I would have attended to it."

i couldn't believe my ears when i heard him say this on the news....what a moron

[Rocketman95]

Originally posted by giddyup
You do know that such grading is entirely subjective?

Wow, really? :eek:

You really can't fault Bush for this...he just wanted to hear how the story ended.

[Rocketman95]

Originally posted by NJRocket
i couldn't believe my ears when i heard him say this on the news....what a moron

Yeah, being Presidential when your nation is under attack is surely moronic. Bush could've just had someone read the rest of the book to him on the plane if he was that interested.

[underoverup]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Yeah, being Presidential when your nation is under attack is surely moronic. Bush could've just had someone read the rest of the book to him on the plane if he was that interested.

Bush decided to start the "No child left behind" program during the terror attacks.

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by Faos
I guess I missed it. Did Snopes debunk that too?

I'll stand by my information.

Here are a couple of links to the debunking.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200407300013

http://mediamatters.org/items/200407290002
On September 7, 2002, The New York Times' current executive editor and then-columnist Bill Keller took up the issue of Kerry's wartime films and debunked the reenactment charge, which he wrote that he believed at first: "[R]elying on a report in the usually dependable Boston Globe, I mocked him for pulling out a movie camera after a shootout in the Mekong Delta and re-enacting the exploit, as if preening for campaign commercials to come."

Simply not true, Keller found after sitting through 40 minutes of footage in Kerry's office. Contrary to Drudge's assertion -- which apparently quoted O'Neill's upcoming book -- that Kerry would "reenact combat scenes where he would portray the hero," Keller wrote:

The first thing to be said is that the senator's movies are not self-aggrandizing. Mr. Kerry is hardly in the film, and never strikes so much as a heroic pose. These are the souvenirs of a 25-year-old guy sent to an exotic place on an otherworldly mission, who bought an 8-millimeter camera in the PX and shot a few hours of travelogue, most of it pretty boring if you didn't live through it.

Keller also wrote that, according to the Swift Boat Sailors Association, "a group of veterans who manned" the kind of riverboat that Kerry commanded, "lots of enlisted men did the same." Former Senator Max Cleland (D-GA), a strong Kerry supporter who lost three limbs in Vietnam, told Keller that he has hours of film from his service in Vietnam, which, Keller wrote, "he has had edited into a three minute meet-the-senator video."


It was common for people to have 8mm cameras, and since Kerry didn't film or reenact any footage of him being heroic, there is nothing to the claim.

I would take John O'Neil and Drudge with a grain a salt if you are interested in finding out the whole truth.

[rimrocker]

The biggest and best argument against this is that we keep seing the same few images of Kerry in Vietnam... photos on the boat and with crew, film of him walking with gun in hand... are there anymore? Seems if he was recreating stuff so he could one day run for President we would have a lot more images.

[BrianKagy]

I would take John O'Neil and Drudge with a grain a salt if you are interested in finding out the whole truth.

But you would trust mediamatters.org without hesitation?

[halfbreed]

Kerry knocks Bush for not reacting immediately? What about this little comment from an interview with Larry King:

"...And as I came in [to a meeting in Sen. Daschle's office], Barbara Boxer and Harry Reid were standing there, and we watched the second plane come in to the building. And we shortly thereafter sat down at the table and then we just realized nobody could think, and then boom, right behind us, we saw the cloud of explosion at the Pentagon..."

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0407/08/lkl.00.html

Now if you look at the times of impact, 40 minutes passed from the time of the second WTC impact (9:03) and the Pentagon impact (9:43). So Kerry criticizes Bush for not reacting for 7 minutes. Meanwhile, he was unable to think for 40 minutes.

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by BrianKagy
But you would trust mediamatters.org without hesitation?

THe information I used from Mediamatters comes from the NY Times. I don't trust anything 100%, but I will trust the NY Times more than drudge or John O'Neil.

Since none of the footage shows John Kerry doing anything particularly heroic or striking any valiant poses, I tend to believe the times on this issue. When O'Neil or Drudge produces film that shows something to the contrary then I'll rethink my position. So far it's all talk from them.

The one journalist who's watched the footage has spoken, and I believe he's the best source we have.

[bnb]

Bush's reaction for the seven minutes after the attack doesn't concern me.

His reactions a few months later, and to this day, do.

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by halfbreed
Kerry knocks Bush for not reacting immediately? What about this little comment from an interview with Larry King:

"...And as I came in [to a meeting in Sen. Daschle's office], Barbara Boxer and Harry Reid were standing there, and we watched the second plane come in to the building. And we shortly thereafter sat down at the table and then we just realized nobody could think, and then boom, right behind us, we saw the cloud of explosion at the Pentagon..."

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0407/08/lkl.00.html

Now if you look at the times of impact, 40 minutes passed from the time of the second WTC impact (9:03) and the Pentagon impact (9:43). So Kerry criticizes Bush for not reacting for 7 minutes. Meanwhile, he was unable to think for 40 minutes.

The point is that Kerry did go into the office, and did sit down to start making decisions, or analyzing the situation. That's not what Bush did.

[halfbreed]

Bush's reaction for the seven minutes after the attack doesn't concern me.

Not saying it does...the title of the thread however is "Kerry Raps Bush on Initial 9/11 Reaction" so just putting in my two cents

[The Real Shady]

Originally posted by halfbreed
Kerry knocks Bush for not reacting immediately? What about this little comment from an interview with Larry King:

"...And as I came in [to a meeting in Sen. Daschle's office], Barbara Boxer and Harry Reid were standing there, and we watched the second plane come in to the building. And we shortly thereafter sat down at the table and then we just realized nobody could think, and then boom, right behind us, we saw the cloud of explosion at the Pentagon..."

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0407/08/lkl.00.html

Now if you look at the times of impact, 40 minutes passed from the time of the second WTC impact (9:03) and the Pentagon impact (9:43). So Kerry criticizes Bush for not reacting for 7 minutes. Meanwhile, he was unable to think for 40 minutes.

Nice find. More proof that Kerry is a flip-flopper and basically just full of it.

[mc mark]

Originally posted by halfbreed
Kerry knocks Bush for not reacting immediately? What about this little comment from an interview with Larry King:

"...And as I came in [to a meeting in Sen. Daschle's office], Barbara Boxer and Harry Reid were standing there, and we watched the second plane come in to the building. And we shortly thereafter sat down at the table and then we just realized nobody could think, and then boom, right behind us, we saw the cloud of explosion at the Pentagon..."

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0407/08/lkl.00.html

Now if you look at the times of impact, 40 minutes passed from the time of the second WTC impact (9:03) and the Pentagon impact (9:43). So Kerry criticizes Bush for not reacting for 7 minutes. Meanwhile, he was unable to think for 40 minutes.

He wasn't the president. What could he have done?

[halfbreed]

Actually according to him he sat fixated for 40 minutes "unable to think." Hard to make decisions when you can't think

[halfbreed]

I'm not saying he could have done anything, but it's hard to condemn someone for not acting within 7 minutes when you yourself claim to have been beyond reasonable thought processes.

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by halfbreed
Actually according to him he sat fixated for 40 minutes "unable to think." Hard to make decisions when you can't think

That's not exactly what he said. What happened was that he and some other congressman met to get info, discuss etc...That's already more than Bush did initially.

Then they sat down to discuss the matter and couldn't think, then they saw the Pentagon one. He didn't say that he was unable to think for 43 minutes. He also doesn't have access to all the cabinet heads, military leaders etc that the president had.

[SamFisher]

A primer on presidential candidate military footage 101

Real
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040210/040210_kerryVietnam_hmed_12p.hmedium.jpg

Fake:

http://www.wright.edu/~mark.willis/images/George%20Flight%20Suit.jpg

[halfbreed]

What gets me about liberals today is the fact that they were the same ones defending Clinton the draft-dodger all through the 90's. At least Bush signed up for something

[rimrocker]

Here's the rest...
____________

KING: He and John McCain walked out -- what did you think?

Did you think...

(CROSSTALK)

KERRY: I knew instantaneously...

KING: Clinton said he though bin Laden.

KERRY: I knew instantaneously with the first. I'm a pilot, and I looked at the weather, and it's what we call in pilot lingo CAVU, ceiling and visibility unlimited. And I knew that that plane did not fly into that building accidentally, as people were speculating. It just doesn't happen, could not, under those circumstances. So I knew it was deliberate, whether it was suicide, whether it was something -- I couldn't tell. When the second plane hit, it was obvious to the world.

And as we went out of the building, my immediately feeling was, we're at war. I mean, that was the sense, that we are under attack. People are attacking the United States of America and we needed to respond.

KING: Were you scared?

KERRY: No, I wasn't scared, I was angry. I was very angry.

[halfbreed]

Well you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who wasn't angry with what happened that day. While I admit, many thought the first plane hitting was an accident, most people I've talked to knew it wasn't an accident. Small planes "accidentally" fly into huge skyscrapers, not the huge commercial jets.

[underoverup]

Originally posted by halfbreed
I'm not saying he could have done anything, but it's hard to condemn someone for not acting within 7 minutes when you yourself claim to have been beyond reasonable thought processes.

To be honest i'm just happy those school kids got to hear the ending of "My Pet Goat". Who really cares if a split second decision by the president could have saved thousands of lives --- it's a photo op with children that really matters. :rolleyes:

[ima_drummer2k]

Originally posted by bnb
Bush's reaction for the seven minutes after the attack doesn't concern me.
Or most other rational thinking people.

Seriously, I can't believe this continues to be an "issue". What could he have done in 7 minutes to save the WTC and Pentagon? Should he have acted like George Costanza yelling fire at a childrens birthday party?

Why didn't anyone bring this up before they saw it in Michael Moore's silly little movie? No one on the 9/11 Commission seemed to think it was a big deal.

Of all the things to bash Bush about, many of them valid, this just seems petty.

[outlaw]

Originally posted by ima_drummer2k

Why didn't anyone bring this up before they saw it in Michael Moore's silly little movie? No one on the 9/11 Commission seemed to think it was a big deal.


did you at least find the passage in the report that mentions this?
I know you had problems doing so previously.

[SamFisher]

Originally posted by ima_drummer2k
Or most other rational thinking people.

Seriously, I can't believe this continues to be an "issue". What could he have done in 7 minutes to save the WTC and Pentagon? Should he have acted like George Costanza yelling fire at a childrens birthday party?

Why didn't anyone bring this up before they saw it in Michael Moore's silly little movie? No one on the 9/11 Commission seemed to think it was a big deal.

Of all the things to bash Bush about, many of them valid, this just seems petty.

This criticism/angle has been around for quite some time, and probably dates back to 02 or 01.

[underoverup]

Originally posted by ima_drummer2k
Or most other rational thinking people.

Seriously, I can't believe this continues to be an "issue". What could he have done in 7 minutes to save the WTC and Pentagon?

Just thinking out loud----

"The nation is under attack we need to get the President's authorization to shoot down these passenger jets they appear to be headed for populated areas. Seeing as other commercial jets have slammed into major landmarks with thousands of people in them we need to act FAST!"

Answer ---- "Please allow the president to finish reading "My Pet Goat" he's reading it slowly, but it shouldn't be more than 7 minutes."

Is that rational?

---------------------

---- "FDR Pearl Harbor is under attack we need you immediately."

"Just hold on for about 7 minutes while I read this book to school kids, photo ops are important as well."

Rational?

[giddyup]

Originally posted by underoverup
Just thinking out loud----

"The nation is under attack we need to get the President's authorization to shoot down these passenger jets they appear to be headed for populated areas. Seeing as other commercial jets have slammed into major landmarks with thousands of people in them we need to act FAST!"

Answer ---- "Please allow the president to finish reading "My Pet Goat" he's reading it slowly, but it shouldn't be more than 7 minutes."

Is that rational?
Are you implying that that is what Card told him on that morning-- in the exact same detail?

[Mulder]

White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card was with President Bush during a children's reading event at a Sarasota, Fla., public school when word came that planes had hit the World Trade Center. Card had to decide how to tell Bush without creating a national panic...

I usually ask myself this: If I were president, would I want to know? And the test was yes, I would want to know. So then I decided that I would tell the president. And I went over to the door, and I actually did give some thought as to what I would say to the president because it's not an easy thing to interrupt a president during an event.

First of all, you're watching, the cameras are on, and the audience is paying particular attention. And when it's a student audience, it's even a greater challenge.

So I was very uncomfortable about interrupting the president during one of his events ... so I wanted to think, how can I convey to the president the situation? And I made a conscious decision to state the facts and to offer editorial comment. And the facts, as I knew them, were -- since he knew about the first plane, I said, "a second plane hit the second tower." Those were the facts. And the editorial comment was, "America is under attack."

I said those things into the president's right ear, and I stepped back, because I did not want to invite a discussion from the classroom. But I tried to be succinct in what I told him so that he understood the enormity of the problem. He looked up -- it was only a matter of seconds, but it seemed like minutes -- and I thought that he was outstanding in his ability not to scare either the American people that were paying attention to the cameras or, more importantly, the students that were in the classroom.

And he just excused himself very politely to the teacher and to the students, and he left. link (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/09/11/MN911voice03.DTL)


"'A second plane hit the second tower. America is under attack.' And then I pulled away from the president, and not that many seconds later the president excused himself from the classroom and we gathered in the holding room and talked about the situation."
link2 (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/2002/msnbc090902.html)

OMG, it seemed like minutes because it WAS!!!

[ima_drummer2k]

Originally posted by outlaw
did you at least find the passage in the report that mentions this?
I know you had problems doing so previously.
Well, of course they mentioned it. I'm not arguing that it didn't happen.

Can you cite the passage that states that the President's actions in those 7 whole minutes are in any way to blame for the events of that day?

[Mulder]

BTW this website is a very interesting read... 9/11 timeline (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/essayaninterestingday.html)

[underoverup]

Originally posted by ima_drummer2k
Well, of course they mentioned it. I'm not arguing that it didn't happen.

Can you cite the passage that states that the President's actions in those 7 whole minutes are in any way to blame for the events of that day?

Hindsight is 20/20 --- Something even more horrible could have happened during that time span and the POTUS would not have been available.

There is no defense for this inaction --- I didn't continue reading the morning paper when I heard what was happening on 9/11.

George W. Bush froze when we needed him the most.

[gifford1967]

If nothing else wouldn't you want to leave the classroom immediately to get the full details about what was going on. Bush (or anyone else) couldn't know in that moment whether his quick reaction would have an effect on the ultimate outcome of this attack. But you have to assume as a leader that there is something you can do.

For instance, what if there were more highjackers on other planes and an order was given to ground all domestic flights immediately after the second plane hit the tower, thus preventing one of those planes from taking off. A difference of 3 minutes could prevent hundreds or thousands of deaths. The point is no one knew the scope of the attack at the time, but the president needs to start getting a handle on the situation IMMEDIATELY after being told we are under attack.

[IROC it]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
That's better than the F from our brave soldier who volunteered for service in Vietnam. Oh wait, he's neither brave nor did he volunteer. He still gets the F, though. Coward.

You do know that I'm showing grace by giving him a passing grade?

What's his "participation in votes" percentage again? :eek:

On a 100% scale, he's an utter failure.

[underoverup]

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/images/903.jpg

Both images taken at 9:03 a.m.: Bush takes part in a meaningless photo-op, knowing full well the US is already under attack.

[ROXRAN]

Originally posted by IROC it
You do know that I'm showing grace by giving him a passing grade?

What's his "participation in votes" percentage again? :eek:

On a 100% scale, he's an utter failure.

This is a point in fact!

[IROC it]

Originally posted by halfbreed
Kerry knocks Bush for not reacting immediately? What about this little comment from an interview with Larry King:

"...And as I came in [to a meeting in Sen. Daschle's office], Barbara Boxer and Harry Reid were standing there, and we watched the second plane come in to the building. And we shortly thereafter sat down at the table and then we just realized nobody could think, and then boom, right behind us, we saw the cloud of explosion at the Pentagon..."

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0407/08/lkl.00.html

Now if you look at the times of impact, 40 minutes passed from the time of the second WTC impact (9:03) and the Pentagon impact (9:43). So Kerry criticizes Bush for not reacting for 7 minutes. Meanwhile, he was unable to think for 40 minutes.

Ooops.. HAVE-IT-2-WAYS ALERT!!



Originally posted by bnb
Bush's reaction for the seven minutes after the attack doesn't concern me.

His reactions a few months later, and to this day, do.

Yep, this confirms the ALERT.

HAVE-IT-2-WAYS

HAVE-IT-2-WAYS

[ima_drummer2k]

Originally posted by underoverup
Both images taken at 9:03 a.m.: Bush takes part in a meaningless photo-op, knowing full well the US is already under attack.
That picture shows the second plane hitting the WTC. How would the President know we were under attack before the second plane hit?

[mc mark]

Originally posted by ima_drummer2k
That picture shows the second plane hitting the WTC. How would the President know we were under attack before the second plane hit?

Because he had been told before he went into the classroom that the first building had been hit.

You'd think he could put 2 & 2 together.

[giddyup]

Originally posted by mc mark
Because he had been told before he went into the classroom that the first building had been hit.

You'd think he could put 2 & 2 together.
No one had any idea who was responsible... or that it was even intentional. This is so patently desperate.

[bnb]

He really didn't need to do the math.

He was told "america is under attack"

;)

Even so...i find the debate about the seven minutes as relevant as the debate on the severity of Kerry's wounds.

I give him a pass on that.

[outlaw]

Originally posted by ima_drummer2k
Well, of course they mentioned it. I'm not arguing that it didn't happen.


you said in another thread you couldn't find any mention of the 7 minutes in the entire 9/11 report

[outlaw]

Originally posted by giddyup
No one had any idea who was responsible... or that it was even intentional. This is so patently desperate.

after all the chatter in the intel community in august 2001 you would think a plane crash into the same building terrorists hit 8 years prior would set off some bells

[mc mark]

Originally posted by giddyup
No one had any idea who was responsible... or that it was even intentional. This is so patently desperate.

giddy he had pdbs for months

one, just a month before

What was the name of it?

[giddyup]

Originally posted by outlaw
after all the chatter in the intel community in august 2001 you would think a plane crash into the same building terrorists hit 8 years prior would set off some bells
You guys act like GWB is the only man on duty. What's he going to do rush off seven minutes ahead of schedule, confuse and/or panic the room and the wider audience, and wait on information. This is just dreadful back-stabbing.

[giddyup]

Originally posted by mc mark
giddy he had pdbs for months

one, just a month before

What was the name of it?
Card's editorial was just a guess. What difference is 7 minutes going to make. See my response to outlaw.

[rimrocker]

By the way, today is the anniversary of the day Bush couldn't understand that bin Laden wanted to attack inside America even after reading a memo entitled "Bin Laden Determined To Attack Inside America."

[mc mark]

Originally posted by rimrocker
By the way, today is the anniversary of the day Bush couldn't understand that bin Laden wanted to attack inside America even after reading a memo entitled "Bin Laden Determined To Attack Inside America."

It's also my mom's birthday!

:D

[outlaw]

Originally posted by giddyup
You guys act like GWB is the only man on duty. What's he going to do rush off seven minutes ahead of schedule, confuse and/or panic the room and the wider audience, and wait on information. This is just dreadful back-stabbing.

not the only man but he is THE man.
you can't excuse yourself from a room without causing a panic? please. he could just say "i'll be right back kids"

7 minutes is a lot of time.
he could have called the FFA and shut down airspace.
He could have called Norad.
Hell he could have called Laura and the girls
anything would have been better than sitting there

[underoverup]

Originally posted by outlaw
not the only man but he is THE man.
you can't excuse yourself from a room without causing a panic? please. he could just say "i'll be right back kids"

7 minutes is a lot of time.
he could have called the FFA and shut down airspace.
He could have called Norad.
Hell he could have called Laura and the girls
anything would have been better than sitting there

Excellent points outlaw.

Also, what if the terrorists had known his photo op schedule and were flying a plane towards the school? Those same terrorists were in Sarasota just days before Bush (only 2 miles away). Seven minutes is certainly enough time to change the world, an assassination in addition to everything else would have completely shattered our nation.

The main point of all this now is --- When the pressure is critical John Kerry ACTS --- George W Bush FREEZES.

[halfbreed]

When the pressure is critical John Kerry ACTS

ummm....how? when? where?

[giddyup]

Originally posted by underoverup
The main point of all this now is --- When the pressure is critical John Kerry ACTS --- George W Bush FREEZES.
Some post somewhere Kerry admits to sucking his thumb for about 40 minutes after this transpired...

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by giddyup
Some post somewhere Kerry admits to sucking his thumb for about 40 minutes after this transpired...

Yes there was a post that said that. It was misrepresentation of what Kerry actually said. He talked about sitting down with some other congressman, and said they weren't able to think.

[mc mark]

It's just amazing to me the smear campaign against Kerry about his military service compared to the incumbent.

It really is.

I’m out! Have a nice weekend folks!

[giddyup]

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade
... and said they weren't able to think.
Is that the man you are supporting for President?

I had no responsibility either, but I was able to think. He's a US senator and he sits around in a state of confusion for 40 minutes?

[halfbreed]

IT was not a misrepresentation. He said they sat down, not that they sat down to accomplish anything. The fact is that 9/11 caught everyone off guard, Kerry too. Now he's hammering Bush on this 7 minutes thing because he can't win based on who he is so he has to campaign based on who he isnt . When the planes hit I sat down with some friends also, does that mean i was forming a defensive strike? Don't think so.

[outlaw]

Originally posted by giddyup
Is that the man you are supporting for President?

I had no responsibility either, but I was able to think. He's a US senator and he sits around in a state of confusion for 40 minutes?

Kerry wasn't CITC.
i'm sure they discussed things in that timespan not just sat there with their thumbs up their butts.

[rimrocker]

Originally posted by halfbreed
Now he's hammering Bush on this 7 minutes thing because he can't win based on who he is so he has to campaign based on who he isnt . When the planes hit I sat down with some friends also, does that mean i was forming a defensive strike? Don't think so.

Notice the timing... I bet if the Swift boat liars hadn't come out... or even if the President's campaign or administration had publically disowned them, he wouldn't have said anything. And as far as campaigning on who he isn't, it's hard to beat Bush there.

[halfbreed]

exactly what i was thinkin rimrocker. nice post.

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by halfbreed
IT was not a misrepresentation. He said they sat down, not that they sat down to accomplish anything. The fact is that 9/11 caught everyone off guard, Kerry too. Now he's hammering Bush on this 7 minutes thing because he can't win based on who he is so he has to campaign based on who he isnt . When the planes hit I sat down with some friends also, does that mean i was forming a defensive strike? Don't think so.

I think Kerry shouldn't really hammer Bush on the issue. It's already out there and people can think about it and make their own decisions.

But do we know how long after the crashes it was before the congressmen got together? You are assuming they didn't sit down to accomplish anything. But the fact that he mentions them thinking or not being able to seems to point to the idea that they might have been meeting to discuss the event.

The truth is that neither of us know what they were doing meeting together after the planes hit. But only you mock the idea that it could have been forming a defensive strike. Since you don't know, I don't think it's fair to rule it out. Certainly because you weren't planning one, doesn't mean that a United States Senator wasn't.

Either way it doesn't matter. I agree that Kerry would be wise to not hammer Bush on the issue. It's contrary to him taking the high road like he asked for in his campaign speech.

[rimrocker]

For the record, I don't think Kerry is "Hammering" Bush on the incident. He mentioned it once and in the original article it was somewhere in the middle.

[halfbreed]

So you think it's possible that a US senator was planning his own strike against another country?

The point is that he admitted that he "couldnt think" for 40 minutes and is hammering Bush for the 7 minute thing. It's highly unlikely (although possible i suppose) that John Kerry was forming his own committee on the issue in the time immediately after. More than likely, he was as stunned as most Americans were. It's petty for either Bush or Kerry to hammer the other for reaction in the immediate minutes after the attacks and my goal isnt to say that John Kerry hurt America by not acting, just to show his two sided stance on the issue

[underoverup]

Originally posted by halfbreed
ummm....how? when? where?

http://www.vietnamwar.com/JohnKerrySilverStarlg.jpg

Courage under fire.

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by halfbreed
So you think it's possible that a US senator was planning his own strike against another country?

The point is that he admitted that he "couldnt think" for 40 minutes and is hammering Bush for the 7 minute thing. It's highly unlikely (although possible i suppose) that John Kerry was forming his own committee on the issue in the time immediately after. More than likely, he was as stunned as most Americans were. It's petty for either Bush or Kerry to hammer the other for reaction in the immediate minutes after the attacks and my goal isnt to say that John Kerry hurt America by not acting, just to show his two sided stance on the issue

That's not what he said. You were the one who attached the 40 minute timing of it based on what time the pentagon was hit. It's not that he was forming his own committee, but it wouldn't be far fetched that they wanted explore the options open to congress at this time.

Kerry himself explained what his thoughts were, and those have been posted here.

[giddyup]

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade
... but it wouldn't be far fetched that they wanted explore the options open to congress at this time.
Let me paraphrase Mr. Kerry, ~" I couldn't think..."

I wish I could find the original quote. Wasn't he watching the news with Barbara Boxer (?) and some other senator. Then they lumbered down to a conference room and sat around a table doing nothing... which is fine. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with all the attempts to skewer President Bush over his 7 minute delay due to an ongoing obligation. Kerry even knew much more about the events than President Bush did, as I'm quite sure he was watching Fox News... :D

[outlaw]

Originally posted by giddyup
I have a problem with all the attempts to skewer President Bush over his 7 minute delay due to an ongoing obligation.

and do you think the ongoing obligation should have took precedent?

[giddyup]

Originally posted by outlaw
and do you think the ongoing obligation should have took precedent?
Yes. A few minutes isn't going to matter. There's a network of people across the nation gathering intel about what happened. There is nothing he could have done until that was accomplished. Now if he was readying to tee off on the back nine, that would be another matter-- that deserves a knock upside the head.

[halfbreed]

If it had been Clinton teeing it up I have a feeling lots of people would be talking about his "Charisma" with regards to a situation like that.

[underoverup]

Originally posted by giddyup
...7 minute delay due to an ongoing obligation.

Ongoing obligation = "My Pet Goat"

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by giddyup
Let me paraphrase Mr. Kerry, ~" I couldn't think..."

I wish I could find the original quote. Wasn't he watching the news with Barbara Boxer (?) and some other senator. Then they lumbered down to a conference room and sat around a table doing nothing... which is fine. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with all the attempts to skewer President Bush over his 7 minute delay due to an ongoing obligation. Kerry even knew much more about the events than President Bush did, as I'm quite sure he was watching Fox News... :D

The original source is mentioned in this thread I believe. If not this one then in one of the other ones.

I think it was a Larry King interview or something.