Anti-Kerry Vets gather for assault

[Faos]

I know it's a Drudge report, but it is an actual book that is coming out. The Kerry camp is claiming the vets are being financed by some rich Texan. My question is: what's the difference between this book and Moore's movie? I'm not sure how he financed his movie but I'm guessing it was from anti-Bush people. So what's the difference?

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0895260174.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg


ANTI-KERRY VETS GATHER FOR ASSAULT; BOOK CLAIMS KERRY WAR 'FABRICATIONS'

**Exclusive**

A veterans group seeking to deeply discredit Democrat John Kerry's military service will charge in the new bombshell book UNFIT FOR COMMAND:


Two of John Kerry's three Purple Heart decorations resulted from self-inflicted wounds, not suffered under enemy fire.


All three of Kerry's Purple Hearts were for minor injuries, not requiring a single hour of hospitalization.


A "fanny wound" was the highlight of Kerry's much touted "no man left behind" Bronze Star.


Kerry turned the tragic death of a father and small child in a Vietnamese fishing boat into an act of "heroism" by filing a false report on the incident.


Kerry entered an abandoned Vietnamese village and slaughtered the domestic animals owned by the civilians and burned down their homes with his Zippo lighter.


Kerry's reckless behavior convinced his colleagues that he had to go -- becoming the only Swift Boat veteran to serve only four months.

The Kerry campaign is planning to vigorously counter the charges and will accuse the veteran's groups of being well-financed by a top Bush donor from Texas, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

"They hired a goddamn private investigator to dig up trash!" charged a top Kerry adviser traveling with the senator late Tuesday. "This is pay for play, and the dirtiest of all dirty tricks ever played on a candidate for the presidency. How low can they go?"

Kerry supporters are comparing the effort by the veterans to the Arkansas State troopers tell-all against Bill Clinton.

UNFIT FOR COMMAND will not be released until August 15.

The names. The details. All on the record.

[mc mark]

Moore's movie was financed by Disney.

Faos really. Can't we talk about social security?

[DonnyMost]

You know, it never ceases to amaze me how people who support a draft dodger can sit there and throw stones at a veteran.

Even if every damn award and story is fabricated.. it still beats being undeservedly ushered into the TANG and then going AWOL.

[Faos]

Oh, here we go... :rolleyes:

It's his fellow vets throwing the stones.

[DonnyMost]

Originally posted by Faos
Oh, here we go... :rolleyes:

It's his fellow vets throwing the stones.

In this specific instance, yes.

But to deny this doesn't happen otherwise is beyond idiotic.

[SamFisher]

Too bad only one, if any, of these men actually served with Kerry on his boat, and their accounts, 35 years afterward don't match with their contemporaneous accounts. (flipfloppers? :confused:)

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp

This entire line of argument is a disgrace to the Republican party.

Have you no sense of decency sir? Apparently not.

[underoverup]

Originally posted by Faos
I know it's a Drudge report

:rolleyes:

[RocketMan Tex]

John O'Neill has been bashing Kerry for 30 years.

Click the link below to learn more about him.

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=John_E._O'Neill

[Chance]

Originally posted by underoverup
:rolleyes:

no more haiku.

For now.
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I will instead go with the trustworthy Iambic Pentameter found in a Shakespearean Sonnet.

Drudge tells me that Kerry got a bronze star
But Snopes tells me it was silver instead
That these two sites differ is not bizarre
What is is what Teresa Kerry said.

Silver? Bronze? Both admirable medals.
Our nation does not pass them out freely.
I will take him at his word and settle
On, “Kerry served his country ideally.”

Back to that creature that is Heinz-Kerry
She seems less human to me every day
And that “Shove it!” quote? Man that is scary!
Are sure you want her leading the way?

If we learned one thing From President Bill
Wives can be a pesk on Capitol Hill

[RocketMan Tex]

Chance, you scare easily don't you?:D

BOO!

[Cesar^Geronimo]

Knowing how split the country is down political lines you could take any group of Americans (Vietnam Vets being one of them) and find people on any side of an issue.

You can find a group of Catholics who support abortion (that doesn't mean Catholics as a whole support abortion).

The found a bunch of Vets against Kerry -- that's not surprising. There are also many Vets supporting Kerry (they went to a room full of them during the convention).

[ROXRAN]

Kerry still has 3 purple hearts and such, but I wonder about the merits if there is any conclusiveness to the self-inflicted wounds, the repugnant behavior, the minor injuries which falsely summized earning the purple hearts (Every veteran had "minor injuries" back then)...

This is a very damaging book for this rich liberal with sad, depressing eyes...I can't wait to buy it on August 15th!...

[Baqui99]

that's the gayest book I've ever seen.

[underoverup]

Originally posted by Chance
no more haiku.


Whether haiku or pentameter your post is quite listless,
so I will step up and be the first to diss this.
Your support of the Drudge is humorous to all,
and bringing Teresa up again shows unbelievable gall.
Silver or Bronze star something Bush never had,
same with George Sr. his tired old dad.
Now it is time to put this simple rhyme to rest,
hopefully Yao Ming will read it and be duly impressed.

underoverup 2004

:)

[rimrocker]

I think it was a Bronze Star AND a Silver Star.

[Rocketman95]

Originally posted by ROXRAN
Kerry still has 3 purple hearts and such, but I wonder about the merits if there is any conclusiveness to the self-inflicted wounds, the repugnant behavior, the minor injuries which falsely summized earning the purple hearts (Every veteran had "minor injuries" back then)...

This is a very damaging book for this rich liberal with sad, depressing eyes...I can't wait to buy it on August 15th!...

Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.

[rimrocker]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.

Agreed. (Did you hear that Clinton killed Vince Foster?)

[Rocketman95]

Originally posted by rimrocker
Agreed. (Did you hear that Clinton killed Vince Foster?)

Yup.

It's not just the outrageous allegations that get me, it's the feigned outrage when Democrats criticize the administration.

"DEMOCRATS ARE SO NEGATIVE. HEY, DID YOU HEAR CLINTON HAD A BUNCH OF PEOPLE KILLED? HE ALSO RAPED A BUNCH OF WOMEN AND THAT COWARD KERRY FAKED HIS INJURIES IN THE WAR."

"Well, at least he served"

"DEMOCRATS ARE SO NEGATIVE!!!!!"

It's infuriating.

[underoverup]

Originally posted by ROXRAN
Kerry still has 3 purple hearts and such, but I wonder about the merits if there is any conclusiveness to the self-inflicted wounds, the repugnant behavior, the minor injuries which falsely summized earning the purple hearts (Every veteran had "minor injuries" back then)...

This is a very damaging book for this rich liberal with sad, depressing eyes...I can't wait to buy it on August 15th!...

Just when you think they can't sink any lower or get any more desperate they pull out the rally posts. :(

[Rocketman95]

Originally posted by underoverup
Just when you think they can't sink any lower or get any more desperate they pull out the rally posts. :(

Let's say that even if those disgusting allegations were true, he was still over in Vietnam rather than over a tray of coke.

[Faos]

I still don't see how this book is any different from Moore's 9/11 which most of you think is the work of God.

[Rocketman95]

Originally posted by Faos
I still don't see how this book is any different from Moore's 9/11 which most of you think is the work of God.

WWWB?

BTW, I haven't seen, nor do I plan to see F9/11 or Bowling for Columbine.

[Mulder]

from Snopes article listed above:

John Kerry's service in Vietnam as an officer in command of a Swift boat and his subsequent activities as an anti-war protester have engendered a good deal of controversy, especially among those who also served in Vietnam. Many Vietnam veterans were angered by Kerry's anti-war stance after he returned to the U.S., viewing his anti-war activities — particularly his testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971 — as unfairly and undeservedly smearing the reputations of all who served in Vietnam.

That said, the piece quoted above, in which a variety of veterans offer their views of John Kerry, isn't really something that can evaluated as "true" or "false." It's true that the men named do exist, that they served in Vietnam, and that they made the statements attributed to them, but the substance of most of these quotes is an expression of opinion, not something objectively classifiable as right or wrong.

The important point to note here is that this piece presents only one side of the story:

Although the men quoted above are often identified as "John Kerry's shipmates," only one of them, Steven Gardner, actually served under Lt. Kerry's command on a Swift boat. The other men who served under Kerry's command continue to speak positively of him:

"In 1969, I was Sen. Kerry's gun mate atop of the Swift boat in Vietnam. And I just wanted to let everyone know that, contrary to all the rumors that you might hear from the other side, Sen. Kerry's blood is red, not blue. I know, I've seen it.

"If it weren't for Sen. John Kerry, on the 28th of February 1969, the day he won the Silver Star . . . you and I would not be having this conversation. My name would be on a long, black wall in Washington, D.C. I saw this man save my life."3

— Fred Short

"I can still see him now, standing in the doorway of the pilothouse, firing his M-16, shouting orders through the smoke and chaos . . . Even wounded, or confronting sights no man should ever have to see, he never lost his cool.

I had to sit on my hands [after a firefight], I was shaking so hard . . . He went to every man on that boat and put his arm around them and asked them how they're doing. I've never had an officer do that before or since. That's the mettle of the man, John Kerry."3

— David Alston

"What I saw back then [in Vietnam] was a guy with genuine caring and leadership ability who was aggressive when he had to be. What I see now is a guy who's not afraid to tackle tough issues. And he knows what the consequences are of putting people's kids in harm's way."2

— James Wasser



Many of Kerry's Vietnam commanders and fellow officers also continue to speak positively of him:

Navy records, fitness reports by Kerry's commanders and scores of interviews with Swift boat officers and crewmen depict a model officer who fought aggressively in river ambushes and won the respect of many of his crewmates and commanders, even as his doubts about the war grew.

"I don't like what he said after the war," said Adrian Lonsdale, who commanded Kerry for three months in 1969. "But he was a good naval officer."2



"I don't know what conclusions you can draw about someone's ability to lead from their combat experience, but John's service was commendable," said James J. Galvin, a former Swift boat officer . . . "He played by the same rules we all did."1


How well all of these men knew John Kerry is questionable, and discrepancies between how some of them described Kerry thirty-five years ago and how they describe him today suggest that their opinions are largely based upon political differences rather than objective assessments of Kerry's military record. For example, Rear Admiral Roy Hoffman is quoted above, yet the Los Angeles Times reported:

. . . Hoffman and Kerry had few direct dealings in Vietnam. A Los Angeles Times examination of Navy archives found that Hoffman praised Kerry's performance in cabled messages after several river skirmishes.1link (http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp)

but don't let the truth get in way of your smear campaign..

[underoverup]

Originally posted by Faos
I still don't see how this book is any different from Moore's 9/11 which most of you think is the work of God.

I haven't watched MM's last two movies and I really don't have any serious plans to anytime soon.

[andymoon]

Originally posted by Faos
I still don't see how this book is any different from Moore's 9/11 which most of you think is the work of God.

I think you overestimate how much credence most of us give to Moore's work. As I have stated many times before, I take everything Moore does with a grain of salt the size of a deer lick.

[IROC it]

http://users4.ev1.net/~yarrum/lilflip.jpg

I am not a vet, but I'm gathering my own FACTS.

[underoverup]

John Kerry initially supported the war because President Bush lied to him and the rest of the nation. Now that JFK knows the truth he has correctly changed his mind --- you might want to add that to your silly little picture camaro boy. :)

[outlaw]

the word turncoat imposed on a military picture is a serious accusation

[RocketMan Tex]

Originally posted by outlaw
the word turncoat imposed on a military picture is a serious accusation

Pretty disgusting statement for someone who never served himself.

[Rocketman95]

Originally posted by RocketMan Tex
Pretty disgusting statement for someone who never served himself.

Yup.

Why haven't you volunteered for the Iraq War, IROCit?

[Rocketman95]

Originally posted by IROC it
http://users4.ev1.net/~yarrum/lilflip.jpg

I am not a vet, but I'm gathering my own FACTS.

You ****ing disgust me.

[IROC it]

Originally posted by underoverup
John Kerry initially supported the war because President Bush lied to him and the rest of the nation. Now that JFK knows the truth he has correctly changed his mind --- you might want to add that to your silly little picture camaro boy. :)

Other people voted "No." Why couldn't John? Seems it would carry more water in my book as his "conviction" and not a wishy-washy vote grabber. A man of strong convictions sticks by his beliefs.

A turncoat flip-flops, and says, "I was lied to."

Rule # 1 for anyone in leadership, or trying to be: Laying blame on others for your actions is not leadership material, step down.

John "Lil' FLIP" Kerry is the same as "Flip Wilson" here trying to say "The Devil made me do it."

Be a man. Just admit, "I changed my mind to gain votes."

DOUBLE STANDARDS don't surprise me from Kerry or his support.

You can "armchair" the presdident, yet cry "foul" and exclaim "expletives" when we try and point out truth about a "candidate."

I'm just being a "patriot" according to Michael Moore.

If I can't ask the questions, "Which is it, John? Can we trust you?" Then lock me up, self-serving, censoring, double-minded, Hypocrits.

Shove that. Your owns words.... YOUR OWN CANDIDATE'S ACTIONS... used against you.

Have a nice day wallering in the cess-pool you created. :D

[cur.ve]

I am not a vet, but I'm gathering my own FACTS.

Other famous flip floppers in history:

Galileo around 1620s:
Everything revolves around the earth. No, the earth revolves around the sun. The Church be dammed! Woops. Sorry.
Verdict: FLIP FLOPPER.

Pythagoras around 500 BC:
The earth is flat. No, the earth must be round.
Verdict: FLIP FLOPPER.

Benjamin Franklin:
1754 - England is good. The American colonies should not unite.
mid-1760s - Independence for American colonies.
Verdict: FLIP FLOPPER.
-----------------------------

In 1971 Kerry dennounced the Vietnam war because he HAD GONE and fought and THOUGHT it was the wrong for the US to act in this course of events.

IN 2004 Kerry wants to contrast his military experience with Bush's INEXPERIENCE as a direct indicator of his ability as COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF.

CONDITION: The American public was led to believe that Iraq posed an imminent threat with WMDs (treeman? where are you?), a madman out to tear apart the MiddleEast (he was merely a madman stuck in his own country) and it's ties to 9/11 and the evil terrorists.

EFFECT: The American public had a strong majority to go to war against Iraq. Here, I'll make the connection clearer. The American public was for the war against Iraq because we trusted our President and his information sources, we trusted the administration when they went in front of the UN with the powerpoint diagrams, and since we've heard our Vice President and President mention Iraq and 9-11 so many times, well, my goodness, there must be a connection there right? THINK ABOUT OUR CHILDREN!!!! Hit that bastard before he hits us, right? And of course, create a flowering democracy amongst a region with histories of thousands and thousands of years. (oh yeah, that was the part B of the case for war.)

CONDITION: The WMDs have not been found - the Administration has admitted errors in its intelligence and have said that the WMDs may never be found (were they there?), the connection between the terrorists and Iraq before the war were not proven, although now, we see more terrorists coming into Iraq (GREAT job), and well, things are pretty crappy with the war budget looming.

EFFECT: The American public is now at best ambivalent about the war with Iraq and definitly concern about the state of affairs there. There is no plan after "effective military operations", soliders are dying, civilian uprest is mounting, basic infrastructure is not there, world opinion, whatever's left of it, is dwindling, etc. The public is beginning to ask questions, hard questions, about what got us into the war and what is keeping us in Iraq.

VERDICT for the American public: FLIP FLOPPER.

As for Kerry:

Wow, the man actually took time to reflect and think about the issue at hand, and make a new decision based on new information that he has. Wow. Ya know what? That is the most despicable thing I've ever heard!! Making a decision based on information. Our President, however does NOT do that. He does NOT change direction no matter the circumstances. That guy, he's the smart one. Stand firm, I say. Stand firm.
God, I hate those flip floppers.

What if it was the other way around? I'm so pissed that America flip flopped and went to war in WWI and WWII. We should have stuck to our guns and stayed isolationist. And dang, what was with the Civil Rights movement??? We gave in and said separate but equal was bad!!! We shoulda kept those southern boys happy and stuck to our guns!

Hey, I called all you neo-cons MORONS. But now, wait, actually you guys aren't morons. You have a right to your opinions just as I do. That's right, I'm a flip flopper. God, I hate myself.

[ima_drummer2k]

Originally posted by cur.ve
Other famous flip floppers in history:
http://www.daslippa.com/cov/slippas.gif

[outlaw]

Originally posted by IROC it

Rule # 1 for anyone in leadership, or trying to be: Laying blame on others for your actions is not leadership material, step down.


Does that rule include blaming the intelligence community?

[IROC it]

Originally posted by cur.ve
Other famous flip floppers in history:

Thank you. The first person to actually "debate and discuss" in here in quite some time.

Thank you for your honesty. Maybe by November 2nd there may be a few "flip-flop" votes from this kind of constructive response.

I know I may me be like gasoline to the fire, but the other side need not reply with more matches to make me stop burning.

Seriously, cur.ve, excellent response.



Originally posted by outlaw
Does that rule include blaming the intelligence community?

Chain of command is something given to Presidents. Presidents are asked, "where did you get the information you based these decisions on?" President responds honestly.

Still the point is this. ADMIT you switched your "convictions" to unite the left side of your party, John "Lil' Flip" Kerry, and explain this... Why did you just not vote "no" if you're so anti-war in the first place?

"I voted yes because I was lied to" is about as the same as "the devil made me do it." If you have a responsibilty as a Senator to know what you're voting on, then ultimately the blame lies in the same place the President has the privilege of indicating it does...

With intel.

If the President has indicated, along with other world leaders, that the intel itself was bad, then why does Kerry say, "Bush lied?" He should just admit that he, too, was misinformed by intel, not Bush himself.

Yes it applies accross the board. I believe Bush indicated where the info came from when questioned.

Why is this so hard to get?

Furthermore... John "Lil' Flip" Kerry fought in Vietnam, then came back before the nation and claimed we were committing "war crimes" in Vietnam, and also made claims that there was no real communist threat... He then toured around with known communist sympathizers and denounced his fellow soldiers, on up to the President, in news conferences and committee hearings.

Now he wants us to call him a "patriot" and a "war hero," yet he used to denounce these things and call himself "a war criminal" for participating in "free fire zones"...

"I changed my mind" in any of these cases indicate to me the IMMINENT POSSIBILTY that he could just "change his mind" at any time IF he were to become my president.

Something I have the right to ask, "Can I trust you, John?" on by any stretch of the imagination. I will not vote in opposition of an incumbent war-time president for a candidate I have serious doubt about that has himself denounced (at one time, then recants) his own military service, and then says, "YES" then swiftly "NO" on the war we are IN at the timeframe he MAY become the COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF.

Why is this so hard to get?

[underoverup]

Originally posted by IROC it
Other people voted "No." Why couldn't John? Seems it would carry more water in my book as his "conviction" and not a wishy-washy vote grabber. A man of strong convictions sticks by his beliefs.

A turncoat flip-flops, and says, "I was lied to."

Rule # 1 for anyone in leadership, or trying to be: Laying blame on others for your actions is not leadership material, step down.

Have a nice day wallering in the cess-pool you created. :D

JFK stuck with the president and went against his party to show unity during a national crisis --- for this he was lied to by George W. Bush. I absolutely agree with you that a true leader should step up and say "The buck stops here" --- sadly Bush has done everything BUT that. Every little scandal that has plagued his battered administration he blames on someone else.

Iraq possesses WMD's that could be used against the United States.

Bush blames bad intelligence from a variety of agencies --- Bush turncoat flip-flops.

Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa

Bush blames bad intelligence from a variety of agencies --- Bush turncoat flip-flops.

The U.S. would be welcomed as liberators by the Iraqi people.

Bush blames the state department for the quagmire --- Bush turncoat flip-flops.

The felony outing of CIA operative Valeria Plame.

Bush turns the investigation over to his political appointees, John Ashcroft and Alberto Gonzalez instead of simply forcing the criminal out --- Bush turncoat flip-flops.

Bush stands in front of a mission Mission Accomplished banner and celebrates winning the war in Iraq.

Bush blames the crew of the aircraft carrier for putting the banner up --- Bush turncoat flip-flops.

Keep passing the buck republican camaro boy. :)

[IROC it]

Originally posted by underoverup
Keep passing the buck republican camaro boy. :)

As soon as you learn what "context" means, you'll understand the difference. Do you even know the context of the IROC in my username?

Oh, that's right... democrats must ASSUME first, and check facts later. Well, take the ME out of that old equation here, underoverup.

I won't assume anything about your username either. I'll stick to the Kerry vs. Bush slam-fest.

I've never owned a Camaro. Niether do I wish to, nor have I.

But you got the basic "republican" assumption partially correct, as in this years' general election I'll probably choose that candidate.

[rimrocker]

Originally posted by IROC it
As soon as you learn what "context" means, you'll understand the difference. Do you even know the context of the IROC in my username?

Oh, that's right... democrats must ASSUME first, and check facts later. Well, take the ME out of that old equation here, underoverup.

I won't assume anything about your username either. I'll stick to the Kerry vs. Bush slam-fest.

I've never owned a Camaro. Niether do I wish to, nor have I.

But you got the basic "republican" assumption partially correct, as in this years' general election I'll probably choose that candidate.

Hey relax... he put a smiley on it... I've been called "rim-job" with no smiley. :(

[Hippieloser]

I DEMAND smilies for all!! :mad:

[underoverup]

Originally posted by IROC it
As soon as you learn what "context" means, you'll understand the difference. Do you even know the context of the IROC in my username?


Yeah what's up IROC it I thought we were having a little fun jabbing back and forth --- I meant that in a totally good-natured way. :)

By the way my username has to do with a tricky b-ball layup and gambling.

Oh and I still think Bush is a turncoat flip-flopper.

Kerry went to Nam Bush went ??? well he went someplace.

And please don't think i'm trying to win this debate context --- it's all about the sharing of new ideas. ;)

[IROC it]

Originally posted by RocketMan Tex
Pretty disgusting statement for someone who never served himself.

Btw... what's your service record?

Okay, either way... do you know what factors involved keep/kept me out?

Also, am I runnin' for pres? I'm really just raising legit questions, and stating opinion.