I'd like to thank Drayton and Gerry...

[fatman510]

Thanks Drayton and Gerry for building a team that should win the WS!!! You are a great front office.


Too bad the players FREAKING SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In now way should this team be where its at right now, but it is...the season is over for all intensive purposes because our rich, selfish, lazy ass players couldnt actually TRY TO PLAY A ****ING GAME. Instead they lollygagged and dreamwalked like the horrible players they are and ruined their entire season.

Great job HOUSTON ASTROS PLAYERS...you are a class act. :rolleyes:

[Nick]

To their credit, this was not a bunch of ballplayers in their primes.... everybody was just hoping that the starting pitching would be able to mask the lineup's old age, defensive holes, and the departure of Wagner in the bullpen.

Unfortunately, consistent starting pitching is the HARDEST thing to get in this game, the lineup got MUCH OLDER, much faster, than anybody ever expected (Kent and Bagwell deserve all the blam here)... so old, in fact, that we had to trade one of our only two decent bullpen pitchers to get Beltran.

But, I would also like to thank Drayton and Gerry for putting together, thus far, their best pre-season attempt to winning a championship. In the past, it was always "if we're good, we might add on," approach... this time, they knew this club didn't have much life left after last year, and they went for it.

The rebuilding process could have easilly started after last season's debacle to the Brewers. They had already traded Wagner, they could have also packaged Kent and Hidalgo for some prospects, and they could have found a way to buy out Biggio's contract.

But, they thought these guys deserved one last shot, and I commend them for that... too bad they turned out to be too old and too snakebit to come thru.

[NJRocket]

I agree...there can't (or at least there shouldn't) be an Astro fan on this board who can be upset with the effort of the front office. I was SO looking forward to moving here and going to pennant race games in Spetember and playoff games in October.

Nick does have a point...we have a lot of guys way past their prime and unfortunately (or fortunately ...whichever way you look at it), Rocket is the only one playing like he is still 28.

I am very bummed out about this season. It's sad that T Mac coming to Houston is the silver lining of a bad baseball season. Oh well.

One more thing...I hope, if it hasn't happened already, that Drayton has called Roger into his office and given him the option of whether or not he wants to go to a contender....even if that contender is St Louis at this point. I think we, as fans, and Drayton owe Roger that.

[Behad]

Originally posted by fatman510
...the season is over for all intensive purposes

intensive purposes??? Why does the purpose have to be intense?





(Pssst...it's "intents and purposes")

[deepellumrocket]

Originally posted by Behad
intensive purposes??? Why does the purpose have to be intense?





(Pssst...it's "intents and purposes")

Thanks for pointing that out. It grates on me when I see that, but I was keeping my mouth shut because I always seem to be the one who's a jerk about grammar and stuff.

[rrj_gamz]

I have to agree, Drayton and Gerry put together a great team on paper, but the players have absolutely come up freakin' short...

There is no excuse and like Gerry said, they get paid to perform, and right now, there not...Heck, even Carlos Beltran isn't doing crap...

[Another Brother]

They did everything that they could. Who would have predicted this?

[gunn]

Originally posted by Another Brother
They did everything that they could. Who would have predicted this?

No they didn't. They knew that they needed a reliever after they acquired Beltran, and they have yet to make a move.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by gunn
No they didn't. They knew that they needed a reliever after they acquired Beltran, and they have yet to make a move.

but would you at this point?? you're right, they need to fill a hole there with a setup man. but the key was to get the offense going. it hasn't worked.

this team had the makings of, at the very least, a contender for a division crown. they haven't performed.

[gunn]

Originally posted by MadMax
but would you at this point??

At this point, ofcourse not, we are beyond the breaker now.

[Surfguy]

This may go down in the MLB record books as the team that was supposed to contend for the World Series but ended up actually placing last in the division and/or having a losing record.

This has to be some kind of record or something. All those baseball analysts who predicted we would win the division or compete for a World Series must be taken back by this lousy team.

I guess every player on this team is just way overrated and nobody could see it. Everyone overrated the quality of our bullpen which has been absolutely disgusting.

In fact, the only two people who have performed at a high level is Biggio(on offense only; defense sucks) and Clemens. I can't believe how many people we have on our team who excel in being average or, worse, choke artists.

I think this is another case of where everyone puts expectations on the ballclub in advance. The ballclub kind of takes it at face value that they will be in the playoffs but there is this pressure lurking over their shoulders knowing these high expectations. They then go out...start losing some games while remaining optimistic that..."oh...we are so good that we will definitely bounce back"...and then they get caught up in losing all these games/series....the pressure intensifies to Mount Everest levels...and then they can't get out of the chokie chicken routine if their lives depended on it. So, this is no different than any other season when the Astros choke when it counts other than they imploded so early. End of story. LOL.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Surfguy
This may go down in the MLB record books as the team that was supposed to contend for the World Series but ended up actually placing last in the division and/or having a losing record.

This has to be some kind of record or something. All those baseball analysts who predicted we would win the division or compete for a World Series must be taken back by this lousy team.


honestly, the cubs aren't that far ahead of this...and i think most national pundits expected them to do better than the 'stros.

[Rocket Fan]

njrocket.. with roger owning part of our minor league team and having what a 10 year astros personal service contract? is that even an option.. might be kind of strange to trade someone and then in two months they are back with the team..

[Rocket Fan]

I too would like to thank drayton and gerry... i've been critical at times in past years of money spent etc.. but this year they spent the money.. and even added the top mid season guy to trade for...

[bigboymumu]

I couldn't disagree more! We went into the season knowing we had a very good starting staff. We also went into the season thinking that we had a team that could hit homeruns.

But, we all knew that the trade of Wagner left us vulnerable. We did not and still do not have an everyday left-handed stick. We do have two switch hitters but when we face lefties, they bat right. I believe pitchers get in "the zone" easier when they face teams that don't give them a diferent look. That is why we have problems with the Glavines of the world. Pitchers like Glavine dominate teams like ours because they can focus on the outside portion of the plate without ever having to change. They just hit their spots and we end up reaching. Left-handed sticks sprinkled throughout the lineup would force pitchers out of their comfort zone.

Also, I can't BELIEVE Gerry was stupid enough to think that our team was good enough to win it all with the defense that we put out there everyday. (He should lose his job just for being STUPID enough to believe that!) Sure he addressed some of our defensive issues when he acquired Carlos, but he robbed Peter to pay Paul (I think that is how the saying goes). He weakened our relievers further by trading Dotel when he should of had another move planned! I know some of you guys are going to defend him by saying he was going to address our relievers but I think the dumbarse didn't plan for the worst case scenario. He thought we were going to go on a winning streak and when we did that, he could go out and get another reliever. Well guess what? Our pen has been terrible. OK, the players have to perform... But, we have the worst core of relievers in the league! Hidalgo for Weathers? Miceli our setup man? Weathers, Miceli, and Lidge is absolutely ridiculous!!!! C'mon how stupid can a GM be when he knows that he has a manager that is the quickest in the league when it comes to yanking the starters??? NO excuse fot that.

..... there are so many other problems with this team but I do not have the time to discuss them right now. I just want to say that I can't stand that snake oil salesman again. I could go on and on about Drayton but it does no good. I can't wait for him to cash out. WE WONT HAVE A CHAMPION HERE UNTIL WE HAVE A NEW OWNER!!!




Here comes the clique!!! :)

[MadMax]

i don't understand that bigboy...everyone and their dog thought the astros were legit contenders. they are clearly not playing up to their potential. when players don't live up to potential, it's on them.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by MadMax
i don't understand that bigboy...everyone and their dog thought the astros were legit contenders. they are clearly not playing up to their potential. when players don't live up to potential, it's on them.

I understand what you have been saying. I like the Pettitte and Clemens moves. But, we make moves for PR purposes. They look good on paper. I think our record shows that the moves didn't work!

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
I understand what you have been saying. I like the Pettitte and Clemens moves. But, we make moves for PR purposes. They look good on paper. I think our record shows that the moves didn't work!

but they're good moves, bigboy are you seriously saying that adding pettitte and clemens and beltran were only PR moves?? those are 3 damn good baseball players. and kent was too, from the year before..hardly a PR move as it displaced one of the city's favorite all time baseball players.

again...what did you know at the beginning of the season that no one else knew? when all the sports writers were saying, "damn, this is going to be a pretty good team," were you actually saying, "no...they're gonna fight with pittsburgh for last place."

the team put out on the field SHOULD BE winning. they're not playing up to their own level...the level they've created an expectation of through past performance. and at this point, that even includes beltran. i don't see how you can put that on the owner who spent the money to bring guys like that in?

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by MadMax
the team put out on the field SHOULD BE winning. they're not playing up to their own level...the level they've created an expectation of through past performance. and at this point, that even includes beltran. i don't see how you can put that on the owner who spent the money to bring guys like that in?

I already said the Pettitte and Clemens moves were good moves!!! You want to talk numbers, we can!!! I can justify every move with bottom line numbers. I just don't have the time right now. EVERY MOVE DRAYTON MAKES, IS CALCULATED USING A MODEL! When the numbers work.... the trades are consummated. Anything else that comes out of Drayton's mouth is BS!!!

[Rocket Fan]

They were good moves..

did they probably help drayton as well? Probably so.. but he does have the right to make a profit..

losing wagner contract about cancels out adding andy...

rogers contract probably pays for itself with all the extra attendance etc...

not sure how much they actualy took off the books by getting rid of hidalgo since they did pay the mets some money... plus they then added beltran...

I don't think drayton lost money by adding these players this year.. probably made more than in years past...

but they are still good baseball moves.. would we have spent 11 mil or whatever we spent on andy if he wasn't a local guy who would sell tickets? I dont know..

I don't think we added that much salary this year since much of it is backloaded and we did get rid of wagner.. but they did get the job done and whether he made money or not.. this team should be a contender..

[Rocket Fan]

I should further this by saying.. if they got rid of wagners money and then didnt' add anyone I'd have been mad...

but they added all the money they spent on wagner and a little more for this years payroll .. so there isn't much to complain about..

we are never going to be a huge spending team like the yankees etc... do I wish we were? yes .. I wish we had an owner that would lost big bucks to spend 200 mil on us every year.. but that's not going to happen...

this is one year I can't blame drayton

[Uprising]

Well, time to rebuild. Time to cut ties with loyalty. Thanks for making the begining of the season exciting, and doing all you could to try to wake this team up Drayton and Gerry.

[jiggadi]

So who here knows exactly how much Drayton profits from all endorsements, concessions etc. exactly each year after payroll? Until we know that number you can't accurately say that this guy is screwing Houston. I think he is but that is my opinion. I see it like this Houston is a big ass city. We have huge corporations all over the place. Oil and Gas companies etc. Why the hell do we always here this talk about payroll? I mean we know that smaller markets do spend more than the Astros. Look at the old Cleveland rosters. I know we are bigger than Cleveland. What I'm saying is I think we don't spend enough nor do we plan for the future. And I don't want to hear the stuff about the Marlins championship teams etc. We signed big contracts to Hidalgo and Wagner and we always do the contracts where they get bigger later which doesn't amount to crap because the only players they are actually paying that they did this with is Biggio and Bagwell. You sign the contracts like that so then you decide you don’t want to pay these players anymore. Yet you didn't plan for the future and now you decide increasing payroll to make up for those mistakes is not an option. It’s Hunsicker and Drayton’s fault. We had issues from last year that were not addressed. The bullpen is what carried us last year and they get rid of the best 1-2 punch in the league in Dotel and Wagner. Hidalgo was not up to where he should have been but was robbed of a golden glove. Yet they stop wanting to pay him and have the fans thinking it was to shake things up. Yeah right. . The Astros made how much when they named it Minute Maid? How much does EV1 pay them for those ads on the foul polls? Like I said it’s only my opinion. I too thought that this team would do way better than this. I’m really wondering what the hell is going to happen next year.

[rezdawg]

Im usually the first to point my finger at Drayton...but the guy has stepped up. He is the last person to blame.

The players, on the other hand, have made my life hell. Every day has become the worst day of my life. Thanks, you bastards.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
I already said the Pettitte and Clemens moves were good moves!!! You want to talk numbers, we can!!! I can justify every move with bottom line numbers. I just don't have the time right now. EVERY MOVE DRAYTON MAKES, IS CALCULATED USING A MODEL! When the numbers work.... the trades are consummated. Anything else that comes out of Drayton's mouth is BS!!!

why is any of this remotely relevant to our discussion, bigboy?

if they're good baseball moves, who cares if they're good for drayton financially? i would assume that a good baseball move can be a good financial move for the owner many times.

the point is...if goes out and makes good baseball moves...and the team still doesn't win...it's his fault? that's not even a remotely rational argument.

[twhy77]

The thing I love about Astros fans is that they always support their team. :rolleyes:

Let's see butts in the seats now that you guys are horrible. Who does that? Huh? Right! Go Cubs!!!

[MadMax]

Originally posted by twhy77
The thing I love about Astros fans is that they always support their team. :rolleyes:

Let's see butts in the seats now that you guys are horrible. Who does that? Huh? Right! Go Cubs!!!

in all fairness...there about 3-5 cities that support baseball teams win or lose.

and by the way...cubs fans aren't there for the cubs.

[twhy77]

Originally posted by MadMax
in all fairness...there about 3-5 cities that support baseball teams win or lose.

and by the way...cubs fans aren't there for the cubs.

Yeah I know they like beer, but they do also like the Cubs a little maybe...

Still its great to have fans like that....

[MadMax]

Originally posted by twhy77
Yeah I know they like beer, but they do also like the Cubs a little maybe...

Still its great to have fans like that....

i guess.

i went to wrigley in june. went there with a friend who is not a houston guy...a big colorado sports fan who tends to be critical of houston sports. we had to sit in different parts of the park because we bought out seats separately.

after the game we both met up...i asked him what he thought...he said, "unimpressed. the fans don't give a damn. i'd rather go to a game in houston...the fans are more into the game there than they are at wrigley." that was exactly what i was thinking, but i assumed my view would be too skewed by my homerism...but here's a guy who doesn't have that viewpoint.

the only park i've been to where i felt there was a dramatic difference was fenway. they treat their baseball with a college football enthusiasm. i love that place. i understand yankee stadium runs a close second. after that, you're hard pressed to find anywhere in the bigs that gets up for their team, win or lose. even teams with great history.

[pgabriel]

Well I think Hunsinker deserves a little blame. You got a team built to be a power team that doesn't have that much power. The offense of this team has been flawed for about 3 seasons, and Gerry really did nothing to address it.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by pgabriel
Well I think Hunsinker deserves a little blame. You got a team built to be a power team that doesn't have that much power. The offense of this team has been flawed for about 3 seasons, and Gerry really did nothing to address it.

carlos beltran?

jeff kent?

with prior production from berkman and bagwell...with reasonable expectations for kent...with hidalgo building off of last season....with all that, this team had a ton of power coming into this season. agreed that it hasn't played out like that. but i don't think there's anyway that any one of us would have thought that craig biggio would have more homers at the all star break than either bagwell or kent.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by MadMax
in all fairness...there about 3-5 cities that support baseball teams win or lose.

and by the way...cubs fans aren't there for the cubs.

I'm going to hold my tongue. There is no way to discuss this issue with you. We're on opposite ends of the spectrum. It seems to me that you pick and choose what you want to read in a post. Read the title of the thread. It is thanking the two idiots for what they have done. I have a different view of how things went down. Right or wrong, they are my views. I will try to explain to you what went down this summer and maybe you can stop your ...whatever you do. But, before I go any further. Tell me who is to blame. Not Biggio, not Hunsicker, not Drayton, Not Jimy, then who... The weather? Bad Luck? The heart of the lineup?

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
I'm going to hold my tongue. There is no way to discuss this issue with you. We're on opposite ends of the spectrum. It seems to me that you pick and choose what you want to read in a post. Read the title of the thread. It is thanking the two idiots for what they have done. I have a different view of how things went down. Right or wrong, they are my views. I will try to explain to you what went down this summer and maybe you can stop your ...whatever you do. But, before I go any further. Tell me who is to blame. Not Biggio, not Hunsicker, not Drayton, Not Jimy, then who... The weather? Bad Luck? The heart of the lineup?

did you mean to quote the part of my posts you quoted?? just checking.

you say i'm unreasonable...but you blame the owner without making an even remotely rational argument for it. i'm still waiting for that. you claim everything he says is a lie. and i'm biased, right? who here agrees with you, by the way? of course you're entitled to your view...but support it. i asked you to, and you didn't.

i've told you who is to blame...power hitters not hitting for power...the fact our leadoff hitter has as many homers as our opening day cleanup hitter and our opening day 3-spot hitter. we were entirely unable to drive in runs for a prolonged period of time. and losing set in, big time. how many games in a row did we go without scoring 5 runs?? i'm not blaming that on the owner.

still stuck on jimy?? now where sans jimy, and the team still sucks...still finding creative ways to lose. so is it garner's fault now, too??

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by MadMax
carlos beltran?

jeff kent?

with prior production from berkman and bagwell...with reasonable expectations for kent...with hidalgo building off of last season....with all that, this team had a ton of power coming into this season. agreed that it hasn't played out like that. but i don't think there's anyway that any one of us would have thought that craig biggio would have more homers at the all star break than either bagwell or kent.

Why not? Hidalgo has had just as many bad years as good? Kent has been in a decline ever since his wrist injury, Bagwell's shoulder has been a topic of conversation, nevermind father time... We started the season knowing that best case scenario, Brad and Adam weren't going to produce... Still we thought we had a good lineup. We went into the season knowing not one of our everyday players was above average at stealing bases.... How many left-handed sticks did we anticipate starting? He did a good job? RIGHT? These are the same issues we have had for lord knows how long? I now understand why the Mets didn't hire the idiot. We have allowed Hunsicker to get away with bad moves forever just because of the financal contraints that have been put on him. The truth is, the players are not the only ones to blame. Who hired Jimy by the way?

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Why not? Hidalgo has had just as many bad years as good? Kent has been in a decline ever since his wrist injury, Bagwell's shoulder has been a topic of conversation, nevermind father time... We started the season knowing that best case scenario, Brad and Adam weren't going to produce... Still we thought we had a good lineup. We went into the season knowing not one of our everyday players was above average at stealing bases.... How many left-handed sticks did we anticipate starting? He did a good job? RIGHT? These are the same issues we have had for lord knows how long? I now understand why the Mets didn't hire the idiot. We have allowed Hunsicker to get away with bad moves forever just because of the financal contraints that have been put on him. The truth is, the players are not the only ones to blame. Who hired Jimy by the way?

wow...and so what did you think the astros would do before the season started?? did you say we'd suck?? be in last place??? because it sounds like an amazing case of 20/20 hindsight to me, bigboy.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by MadMax
did you mean to quote the part of my posts you quoted?? just checking.

No! I am in between transactions. Holding 12 positions right now! Sorry about that!

[pgabriel]

Originally posted by MadMax
carlos beltran?

jeff kent?



the point is he didn't try to get some speed and build a more balanced offense. If this team isn't hitting long balls its struggling.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by pgabriel
the point is he didn't try to get some speed and build a more balanced offense. If this team isn't hitting long balls its struggling.

i don't disagree with that. i'm just not sure there many options out there to address those needs.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by MadMax
wow...and so what did you think the astros would do before the season started?? did you say we'd suck?? be in last place??? because it sounds like an amazing case of 20/20 hindsight to me, bigboy.

Exactly the point. Is it obvious now? You are a contributing member. Go back and check to see if I said that before the season!

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Exactly the point. Is it obvious now? You are a contributing member. Go back and check to see if I said that before the season!

no thanks. i'll take you word for it. did you?

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by MadMax
no thanks. i'll take you word for it. did you?

I guess you are trying to call me out? So, I'll tell you what I have said in the past.. go look it up all you want. I did not think we would be this bad this year. I honestly thought we would be in the playoffs but I didn't think our offense and defense was going to be good enough to beat elite pitchers. The kind we would play in the playoffs.

As for Jimy, never liked him!
As for the our problems, it's the same as it was before the season. Go and look it up!

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
I guess you are trying to call me out? So, I'll tell you what I have said in the past.. go look it up all you want. I did not think we would be this bad this year. I honestly thought we would be in the playoffs but I didn't think our offense and defense was going to be good enough to beat elite pitchers. The kind we would play in the playoffs.

As for Jimy, never liked him!
As for the our problems, it's the same as it was before the season. Go and look it up!

i'm not calling you out at all. i said i would believe you...because it's verifiable. so without me looking it up, i'll assume you'd tell me the truth.

great. so you said we had some weaknesses...but should be in the playoffs? right? but that ultimately we wouldn't win the big one?

the reality is far worse than that, as i'm sure you know. my point is, if you didn't predict that reality, i'm not sure we can all look back in hindsight and now blame it on the owner and the gm. this isn't the NBA....if you make it to the playoffs in baseball, you've already had a damn good year. even teams that don't make it to the playoffs can say they've had a good season in baseball, sometimes.

ultimately...even you thought this team was good enough to make the playoffs. they're not playing up to the level of expectation that we all had for them. i can't fault general managers or owners for that...you put out a team that you think gives you a shot...and when they fall on their face the way this team did, it's on the players.

[The Real Shady]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Why not? Hidalgo has had just as many bad years as good? Kent has been in a decline ever since his wrist injury, Bagwell's shoulder has been a topic of conversation, nevermind father time... We started the season knowing that best case scenario, Brad and Adam weren't going to produce... Still we thought we had a good lineup. We went into the season knowing not one of our everyday players was above average at stealing bases.... How many left-handed sticks did we anticipate starting? He did a good job? RIGHT? These are the same issues we have had for lord knows how long? I now understand why the Mets didn't hire the idiot. We have allowed Hunsicker to get away with bad moves forever just because of the financal contraints that have been put on him. The truth is, the players are not the only ones to blame. Who hired Jimy by the way?

If you thought that a team that went 87-75 last season would be this bad after the additions of Clemens, Pettitte, and Beltran then you should call yourself Miss Cleo. I don't think anybody could have predicted this.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by The Real Shady
If you thought that a team that went 87-75 last season would be this bad after the additions of Clemens, Pettitte, and Beltran then you should call yourself Miss Cleo. I don't think anybody could have predicted this.

that's my point. if you called it...great...you're the smartest baseball guy i know! but if not...then it's real hard to hold anyone else to that standard, particularly when sportwriters, players and coaches alike all talked about the astros being a force to reckon with before the season started.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by The Real Shady
If you thought that a team that went 87-75 last season would be this bad after the additions of Clemens, Pettitte, and Beltran then you should call yourself Miss Cleo. I don't think anybody could have predicted this.

Check two posts before yours!

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Check two posts before yours!

where you said you didn't think they'd be THIS bad.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by MadMax
where you said you didn't think they'd be THIS bad.

OKayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy? That is what I was implying. Your pointtttttttttt?

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
OKayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy? That is what I was implying. Your pointtttttttttt?

you can read my point 5 posts back from yours.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by MadMax
you can read my point 5 posts back from yours.

Why do you go out of your way to annoy other members?

[codell]

Max is gettin upset!!

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Why do you go out of your way to annoy other members?

I was about to ask you the same question...

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Why do you go out of your way to annoy other members?

i don't think that's my reputation here.

[gunn]

Settle down in here guys. Face it, the Astros just flat out stink, and everyone shoulders that; from Gerry to the players, to the managers and coaching staff.

[bigboymumu]

Larry Dierker (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/2692691)


For those that have ever been in the real world, you know what Larry is saying in this article. The players should get the blame, after all they are the ones that are playing. But the truth is, they didn't hire Jimy, they didn't put together this bullpen, they didn't put together this defense, they didn't put together this lineup, they didn't trade away Wagner, they didn't acquire Weathers, they didn't move Biggio to the outfield, they didn't put Berkman in right, they didn't trade so many players to Detroit and San Diego when Tal's son was there, they didn't give away Linebrink, they weren't the ones that didn't get enough for C Everett, Hampton... they weren't the ones that allowed the Santana's of the world to get away without getting anything in return.

See MadMax, you can say we went out and snatched up Kent last off-season, but we now know that was a mistake. We all knew that Kent wanted to play close to his home, we also knew that he was coming over and giving that snake oil salesman a hometown discount. We all know that Kent had limited range at second, was a locker room cancer, and was injury prone. But guess what? We signed him anyways...

See MadMax, you can say that we went out and picked up Pettitte and Clemens this past summer. But, I will say it was after we traded Wagner because he spoke the truth. Again we get a hometown discount and the move was made because the houston media and fans started to call Drayton out. See even your hero, GERRY called Drayton out towards the end of last season.

The underlying theme: Hunsicker goes out there and finds out who is interested in the Astros. Negotiations start, Drayton gets his finance guys to build a model that takes into account positive press, and deals are consummated. Those players come in at a DISCOUNT but at a COST! It cost us the best bullpen this year....

See MadMax, the Biggios are on this team not because of their skills now, but because Drayton doesn't want to make a Nolan Ryan type mistake. But the problem is, the Biggio's of this team are the biggest problems. See Biggio is a locker room lawyer that manipulated our GM into firing the best and most productive manager we ever had. See Larry Dierker was fired because the team didn't hit in the playoffs... Guess what? Our team still can't hit but it is during the regular season now. See Mad Max, you say Biggio is having a great season offensively but I say Biggio gets fat on bad pitchers. See you look at his numbers this season but I look at the last two seasons. See you think he is doing something special, I say it is time to bring up someone that can do more than just get on base against the the below average/average pitchers. He (Bagwell, Ausmuss, Everett, Ensberg, Hidalgo..) could never hit the good pitchers. You know if a pitcher has a good slider, the guys can't compete. That is what we would see in the playoffs and that is why I didn't think we would win it all this year. The root of the offensive woes lies in the fact that this team tries to pull every pitch. Yet, we don't do anything about it. See, none of the managers really have any control because all of the control is shared by 5 people in this organization. Drayton, Tal Smith (via the trades with his son), Hunsicker (via the firings of two managers without taking any of the blame), Biggio, and Bagwell (my favorite player).

Championship teams have character, championship teams get along with their teammates (at least most do), championship teams have excellent leaders that come through in the clutch, championship teams address their liabilities, championship teams get better when their backs are against the wall, championship teams are built to win not to compete. I would love to have the Marlins ownership instead of Drayton. They bring in champions and make the tough choices (whether the press or fans agree with them or not). The decisions aren't based on PR. I am not expecting to spend like the Yankees. I do expect championships. Anything short of A championship falls on the decision makers. That is the five that I called out. That is the five that should be blamed!

Wins will pack Minute Maid Park not band aids! The snake oil salesman has gotten away with it for a long time. I feel bad for the fans that voted for the new stadium. I was hoping we could build a tradition here but Drayton destroyed that dream. It's going to look like the Astrodome when we start over. But Drayton will blame the fans instead of himself.



The time has come when reporters who work for the Astros have to bite their tongues. When times get tense, anything but complete loyalty sounds like treason.

As a broadcaster, I always refer to the Astros as we, not they. Why would anyone want to be neutral, much less critical of the person who signs his paycheck? The adage "don't bite the hand that feeds you" is especially meaningful in times like these when sensitivities, like jock rash, cannot be ignored.

Reporters are trained to report the facts. Columnists are a different breed of reporter. They, too, must keep the facts in mind, but they also are required to give an opinion. In broadcasting, the play-by-play announcers are more like reporters and the color men add texture to the game by offering opinions.

In times like these, when the hand that feeds is jittery, it is difficult to report the facts and almost impossible to offer a critical opinion without rubbing that hand the wrong way.

If you ignore the facts and continue to say the team has been unlucky, that everyone, including the umpires, is helping the other team, that losing with such a good team is an aberration, and that the team is bound to go on a long winning streak soon, you will lose your credibility.

Most announcers who work for the team favor their paychecks over their credibility.


Treading the company line
Those who work for newspapers, radio and TV stations feel no compunction about attacking the team when they think it is warranted. Some even start cutting and slashing when it isn't warranted because they will get more attention, thereby making their employers happy.

Still, most announcers prefer to work for the team because it is usually a more stable means of employment. But once they start cashing the checks, they know they are expected to speak the company line. Normally, it is not that difficult to fade the heat and do a good job without ruffling any feathers. But when a team, like the '04 Astros, performs well below expectations, things get a little dicey.

I have been lucky because I was never in the position of promoting a team, like this year's Astros, that has failed so miserably. I did the job on a daily basis when the Astros had a record much worse than the current team. But in those seasons, no one expected to go to the World Series.

This year, from the moment Roger Clemens inked his contract, a trip to the World Series has been the only acceptable outcome.

I certainly expected more from them, and I am generally cautious about rosy predictions. Sure, I saw the signs of age, but I thought the older guys could still play well enough to win a championship. So did Gerry Hunsicker, who is usually more worried about the team than I am.

The marketing department did great job of promoting this journey toward final redemption before the season even started. That is what they are paid to do. In a sense, it was like preaching to the choir. The fans who called the talk shows were already more buoyant about the team than I was, and, for this reason, they are even more disappointed and are jumping off the bandwagon. I can almost hear their feet hitting the ground.


Spreading the blame
No matter what the announcers say, the fans will believe what they see with their own eyes. It has not been a pretty sight. It would be nice if the people who are further up the management ladder than the manager would accept some of the blame. The players have accepted most of it already. I don't think many fans would deny thinking this team would do better. So why would they think Drayton McLane, Tal Smith and Hunsicker should have known better?

I wasn't giddy about going straight to the World Series before opening day. But I did think the team would win at least 90 games. I don't think it is a disgrace to fail at predicting the future. And I don't think it is a crime if an announcer gets frustrated and says something that isn't entirely positive.

The only way out of this battle is to concentrate on the warriors. Keep your eyes on the battlefield.

And don't kill the messenger.

[Master Baiter]

bigboy, you started out pretty good and then it all went to hell. What in the hell does losing have to do with the stadium? The Astrodome was an old turd.

I'm too tired to comment decently on the rest. I feel you were right with quite a bit of your comments.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by MadMax
carlos beltran?

jeff kent?

but i don't think there's anyway that any one of us would have thought that craig biggio would have more homers at the all star break than either bagwell or kent.

Who would of thought that Jeff Kent would more than double the steal total of our lead off hitter?

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Who would of thought that Jeff Kent would more than double the steal total of our lead off hitter?

big boy.


i quit. you win. yes...we're losing games because biggio isn't stealing bases. fortunately we have power guys like kent, berkman and bagwell to lead this team. they've done all they could...i think both has had at least 1 homer in the last 30 days...to get this ship sailing.

oh, yeah...and it's jimy's fault too. we'd have been stealing more bases with garner in here a long time ago. thank God phil is with us now. i can already feel the difference.

oh yeah...and it's gerry's fault. because he should have known that, though they kicked ass last season, kent and berkman would bring nothing this season. he should have known that trading for beltran would be worthless. he should have held on to a position of strength and the let the weaknesses of the starting rotation stay exposed.

oh yeah...and biggio is killing us out there. it's mostly his fault.

i'm in complete agreement with you, bigboy. are we done now?

p.s. yeah...the marlins are the goal. shoot their wad twice...and the rest of their history involves the cellar of their division. keep up the great work.

[Master Baiter]

Originally posted by MadMax
p.s. yeah...the marlins are the goal. shoot their wad twice...and the rest of their history involves the cellar of their division. keep up the great work.
Hey, at least they got to shoot there wad, can you imagine going 30 something years and never getting to blow your load. Talk about blue baseballs. :D

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Master Baiter
Hey, at least they got to shoot there wad, can you imagine going 30 something years and never getting to blow your load. Talk about blue baseballs. :D

yeah...i can imagine it!!! i'm living it!!! i'm 30 years old. the astros are 42 years old.

.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by MadMax
big boy.


i quit. you win. yes...we're losing games because biggio isn't stealing bases. fortunately we have power guys like kent, berkman and bagwell to lead this team. they've done all they could...i think both has had at least 1 homer in the last 30 days...to get this ship sailing.

oh, yeah...and it's jimy's fault too. we'd have been stealing more bases with garner in here a long time ago. thank God phil is with us now. i can already feel the difference.

oh yeah...and it's gerry's fault. because he should have known that, though they kicked ass last season, kent and berkman would bring nothing this season. he should have known that trading for beltran would be worthless. he should have held on to a position of strength and the let the weaknesses of the starting rotation stay exposed.

oh yeah...and biggio is killing us out there. it's mostly his fault.

i'm in complete agreement with you, bigboy. are we done now?

p.s. yeah...the marlins are the goal. shoot their wad twice...and the rest of their history involves the cellar of their division. keep up the great work.

Marlins in last place? Astros or the Marlins? Marlins have two championships, you have the audacity compare the two. That's like comparing the Jazz to the Rockets!

I see you are on the Hidalgo thread talking about how hindsight is 20/20. (And earlier in this thread) What you call hindsight, I call past performance. When you invest in mutual funds and you get your quarterly reports and see that you have lost 10% of your net worth and that this has been happening for as long as you remember, do you call your broker and say "well, hindsight is 20/20" or do you call him and tell him he was wrong? Do you keep that mutual fund that performed so well in the late 90s but has been underperforming for the past 3 years?

[codell]

bigboy,

Pretty narrow minded analogy IMO. If the vast majority of stock brokers thought the mutual fund was still very good, then to complain about picking it 3 years after the fact, is indeed hindsight.

The odds were in our favor before the season started, and more people than not, agreed with that. To critisize the moves after the team has fallen on its face, is indeed, hindsight. In fact, if we were in first place right now, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[MadMax]

i know bigboy...despite the fact you've admitted you thought this team was a playoff team...you also impossibly knew it would suck and be in last place.

hindsight.

and yes...the marlins have been cellar dwellers for most of the years of their existence. they rose up twice...and i rooted for them like crazy both times. they had things break their way both years, and they took advantage and won. awesome. but the astros have been in the race for the last 10 years virtually every year but 2 or 3. i tend to judge a summer by how quickly my team is out of the race. having a team fall down in april is like not having a team at all that year.

[gunn]

Originally posted by bigboymumu

For those that have ever been in the real world..........
[/i] [/B]

Good post bigboy,

I'd also like to add that these players, Bagwell, Biggio, and Berkman, have a weak mentality. They've proven time, and time again that they will fold when the slightest bit of pressure is applied. When things are not going their way they get down on themselves. It seems as if they have a roll over and die attitude which usually will result in long slumps.

I know that I wasn't very specific in this post but I just didn't feel like typing it all out. But generally speaking, I think this trait is clearly visable.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by gunn
Good post bigboy,

I'd also like to add that these players, Bagwell, Biggio, and Berkman, have a weak mentality. They've proven time, and time again that they will fold when the slightest bit of pressure is applied. When things are not going their way they get down on themselves. It seems as if they have a roll over and die attitude which usually will result in long slumps.

I know that I wasn't very specific in this post but I just didn't feel like typing it all out. But generally speaking, I think this trait is clearly visable.

yeah...despite moving two positions in the same year...the year after being moved from a middle infield spot to an outfield spot he's not well suited for...biggio has shown his roll over and die attitude at the plate all season long. weak mentality.

whatever. bagwell is hurt, gunn. he's underperforming, but it's directly attributable to an injury.

[Master Baiter]

Originally posted by MadMax
yeah...despite moving two positions in the same year...the year after being moved from a middle infield spot to an outfield spot he's not well suited for...biggio has shown his roll over and die attitude at the plate all season long. weak mentality.

whatever. bagwell is hurt, gunn. he's underperforming, but it's directly attributable to an injury.
I understand that Bags and Biggio are team guys. I know that Biggio has sacrificed for the team in moving positions several times. I know they are getting old and Bags is hurt.

I still think he is right in saying they are weak mentally. When have they ever performed against good pitching? the playoffs? when we were tied for first last year?

They are great Astros players but you can never ever say they were clutch when it truly counted. I dont care about how they were the Comeback Kids and won 102 games. I dont care about how they got us to the playoffs and won division titles. I want a playoff win. I want a World Series berth. They have never done this because they fold when it is time to be superstars and carry a team.

[MadMax]

there's no doubt they haven't won in the playoffs. but baseball isn't like the other sports. we don't judge players' careers in baseball solely by what they did in the playoffs. you're talking about judging a career by about a grand total of 30 something AB's. that's ridiculous when you consider these guys have been playing around 14 years each. if we do the same for guys like ted williams, we don't like the math much.

my point is, looking at these guys this season and writing off their performance to "mental weakness" is ridiculous. first of all...even if you're right about them....it isn't the playoffs!!! it's the regular season. and bags has been a monster in the regular season for his entire career. except of course...like now...when he's injured.

what signs of mental weakness has biggio shown this year??? yeah, he's fielding a position he's not well suited for. but are you seeing the effects of that at the plate??

i suppose i'm more of a realist in baseball. i see a league where, until just recently, the same teams win every stinking year. and they're usually teams with payrolls that nearly double ours. regular season success actually means something in baseball...to win a division is actually a coveted accomplishment, and not an after-thought. i grew up with an astros team that was in receivership...that won the division 2 times prior in its entire history. and in the past 10 years, they've won 4 division championships. forgive me for cutting these guys some slack for putting up HOF or close to HOF type numbers and leading this franchise to the best years of its history.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by MadMax
there's no doubt they haven't won in the playoffs. but baseball isn't like the other sports. we don't judge players' careers in baseball solely by what they did in the playoffs. .

I agree to some extent...but these guys (Bags, Biggio) have been our leaders for some time now. We have surrounded them with more than ample talent on several occasions. I don't put the blame squarely on them but if you look at sports history in general, those 2 don't measure up to other guys who have been tabbed 'leaders'...especially when the games really count.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by NJRocket
I agree to some extent...but these guys (Bags, Biggio) have been our leaders for some time now. We have surrounded them with more than ample talent on several occasions. I don't put the blame squarely on them but if you look at sports history in general, those 2 don't measure up to other guys who have been tabbed 'leaders'...especially when the games really count.

i don't disagree with that. i just think you can go overboard on that....again, that means you say the same thing about a guy like Ted Williams...and you make guys like Jim Leyrtiz into HOF players. i can not discount 440 career HR's or 50 doubles/50 steals because of limited playoff AB's.

[NJRocket]

Originally posted by MadMax
i don't disagree with that. i just think you can go overboard on that....again, that means you say the same thing about a guy like Ted Williams...and you make guys like Jim Leyrtiz into HOF players. i can not discount 440 career HR's or 50 doubles/50 steals because of limited playoff AB's.

No question these guys have given us as much if not more than a lot of other guys who have played on championship teams. I'm just looking at it from a frustrated fan standpoint and saying "ok...we got you guys RJ and no one could hit the Padres (although Brown was like the second coming of mike scott that yr)...we had alou backing you up...carl everett (who had a great season) there for you...then Jeff Kent....then Roger and Andy with a Beltran kicker. Again...its not like Kent is in his prime either and Ensberg only took 3 months to hit the damn ball but its just frustrating. I think Bags and Biggio are definite HOF'ers...no question...but it would be nice to watch some games in October.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by NJRocket
No question these guys have given us as much if not more than a lot of other guys who have played on championship teams. I'm just looking at it from a frustrated fan standpoint and saying "ok...we got you guys RJ and no one could hit the Padres (although Brown was like the second coming of mike scott that yr)...we had alou backing you up...carl everett (who had a great season) there for you...then Jeff Kent....then Roger and Andy with a Beltran kicker. Again...its not like Kent is in his prime either and Ensberg only took 3 months to hit the damn ball but its just frustrating. I think Bags and Biggio are definite HOF'ers...no question...but it would be nice to watch some games in October.

i agree. but keep in mind, moises didn't hit in the playoffs, either. kent has been disappointing this season as well. carl everett didn't hit in the playoffs, either. it wasn't like the whole lineup was going gangbusters in the playoffs, and bags and bidge were the only ones falling down.

actually...bagwell had a pretty good series against the braves in 2001. batted over .300 for that series, if i remember right.

[Master Baiter]

We have had several teams that could have at least made a decent playoff run and we have had two teams built for a World Series run.

I am a homer. I love the Astros. I want nothing but the best for our guys.

That doesnt take away from the fact that Bags and Biggio (and other Astros as well) have never ever hit good pitching. Regular season or playoffs. We would kill lesser teams. We would come back against lesser pitching. When it came down to the nut cutting, they never have gotten it done. I dont have stats but I would love to see numbers on how they have faired against good pitching. I would bet money that they sucked it up.

I've watched enough Astros baseball. I've had season tickets. I've been to the playoff games. I know that these guys have blown it over and over. It made me sick to watch.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Master Baiter

That doesnt take away from the fact that Bags and Biggio (and other Astros as well) have never ever hit good pitching. Regular season or playoffs. We would kill lesser teams. We would come back against lesser pitching. When it came down to the nut cutting, they never have gotten it done. I dont have stats but I would love to see numbers on how they have faired against good pitching. I would bet money that they sucked it up.

.

averages over time against good pitching are always low...no matter the player. that's why it's called good pitching. if they were killing those guys, it wouldn't be good pitching.

[Master Baiter]

Hi wall, can I talk to you for a while?? :cool:

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Master Baiter
Hi wall, can I talk to you for a while?? :cool:

sorry...i don't mean to be that way.

but was my point illegitimate? you make a conclusory statement that "these guys NEVER hit good pitching" with no stats to back it up...just on a gut. i'm saying, bagwell has over 400 homers...some of those had to come off good pitches. i'm saying biggio has over 2500 hits, right?? some of those had to come off good pitchers. but it wouldn't surprise any of us to find that every major leaguer performs better against bad pitching than against good pitching. that almost goes without saying.

by the way...i have started out my posts agreeing in part...disagreeing in other parts. if i don't agree with you entirely, am i a wall? i just disagree with you. at least in part.

[Master Baiter]

Originally posted by MadMax
sorry...i don't mean to be that way.

but was my point illegitimate? you make a conclusory statement that "these guys NEVER hit good pitching" with no stats to back it up...just on a gut. i'm saying, bagwell has over 400 homers...some of those had to come off good pitches. i'm saying biggio has over 2500 hits, right?? some of those had to come off good pitchers. but it wouldn't surprise any of us to find that every major leaguer performs better against bad pitching than against good pitching. that almost goes without saying.

by the way...i have started out my posts agreeing in part...disagreeing in other parts. if i don't agree with you entirely, am i a wall? i just disagree with you. at least in part.
I was kidding. I agree that Bags and Biggio have had some good pitching hits. I agree that Bags and Biggio have had some great clutch performances.

I dont believe that this has been consistant. I believe when it truly counts (playoff, playoff berth on the line) they have never done it. No matter how great they are in the regular season they have screwed the pooch when (I believe) it really counts. We have had World Series quality teams. I expected at least one freaking playoff round win. It hasnt happened. I love these guys as Astros. I dont think they have faltered from lack of effort of lack of desire. I have an official Bagwell jersey. My wife has an official Biggio jersey. They are the Astros to us. We love the team.

That doesnt take away from the fact that they blew it. Much to my dismay I might add.

[bigboymumu]

Mad Max,
You are really something else! Keep on spinning what you want to spin. The reality is this team has too many holes. The people you defend makes you seem like a homer not objective. You mention before that you have been an Astros fan for 30 years and blah blah blah Biggio blah blah. You can keep repeating yourself over and over again. It's simple... You blame the people that have been there the longest, the same ones that keep choking when it counts. The people that have proven over and over again that they are not getting it done. The ones that keep putting a team together that truly does not have a chance.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Mad Max,
You are really something else! Keep on spinning what you want to spin. The reality is this team has too many holes. The people you defend makes you seem like a homer not objective. You mention before that you have been an Astros fan for 30 years and blah blah blah Biggio blah blah. You can keep repeating yourself over and over again. It's simple... You blame the people that have been there the longest, the same ones that keep choking when it counts. The people that have proven over and over again that they are not getting it done. The ones that keep putting a team together that truly does not have a chance.

quick question....would you have relased barry bonds before the giants' world series run against the angels because of poor playoff performance before that? how about ted williams??

thanks in advance.

you say i'm spinning...i elect you to serve as GM. clearly you're smarter than gerry. i'm sure you've forgotten more baseball than he ever knew. i'm sure every gm in baseball would have rid themselves of the plague that is jeff bagwell and craig biggio by now. yeah. i'm sure of it.

[Master Baiter]

Originally posted by MadMax
you say i'm spinning...i elect you to serve as GM. clearly you're smarter than gerry. i'm sure you've forgotten more baseball than he ever knew. i'm sure every gm in baseball would have rid themselves of the plague that is jeff bagwell and craig biggio by now. yeah. i'm sure of it.
I'm not saying we should release Bags and Biggio or that they were not our best shot at winning a title.

I was not for resigning Biggio on this last contract. Yes he has produced so far this year but I thought we should have gone in a different direction. I still believe that. I think we could have started rebuilding and still compete.

Bagwell is another matter. I never thought that his production would fall off this bad. It is unfortunate that his injury has crippled him this bad. I thought that keeping Bags as a veteran presence was the way to go.

[gunn]

Originally posted by MadMax
yeah...despite moving two positions in the same year...the year after being moved from a middle infield spot to an outfield spot he's not well suited for...biggio has shown his roll over and die attitude at the plate all season long. weak mentality.

whatever. bagwell is hurt, gunn. he's underperforming, but it's directly attributable to an injury.


Max, you can keep making excuses for Biggio's fielding all you want, but the fact of the matter is he has no business in the field; ANYWHERE! And their weak mentality has nothing to do with moving positions, or injuries. Come on Max.

[Raven]

If Drayton was serious about a WS, he would have bumped the payroll up a few mill, and signed a closer.

It would have been just for one year, and he still wouldn't do it.

[JPM0016]

Originally posted by Raven
If Drayton was serious about a WS, he would have bumped the payroll up a few mill, and signed a closer.

It would have been just for one year, and he still wouldn't do it.

Brad Lidge is a capable closer. He's not the problem

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by JPM0016
Brad Lidge is a capable closer. He's not the problem


Lidge is a capable closer but you do not put an inexperienced guy in that role when you are in an all or none season. Hunsicker is hoping that works because no other GM would take that risk. If this is our last chance with this core then you have to go into battle with a better core of relievers.

Lidge is not the problem... No, he is not. The staff is the problem and I am sure that is what Raven is trying to say.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by gunn
Max, you can keep making excuses for Biggio's fielding all you want, but the fact of the matter is he has no business in the field; ANYWHERE! And their weak mentality has nothing to do with moving positions, or injuries. Come on Max.

wait a second...aren't you the one who said you would consider re-signing him?? which is it gunn?? would you consider re-signing...or does he have no business being out there??? ANYWHERE??

you flip flop like a politician.