Deadline Deals

[chrisjent]

For those keeping track at home. Those deals the Astros have made to propel them to the next level - or at least help down the stretch in past years.

Randy Johnson
Pedro Astacio
Mark Loretta
Tom Gordon
Mike Williams
Carlos Beltran

Number of playoff series won following the acquisitions: None
Those players resigned: None
Prospects given up to acquire this help: Guillen, Garcia, Halama, McKnight, Buck, Ginter (?), etc...need to research more, but you get the point.

Does not include Saarloos and Robertson deals since those occured earlier in the season.

Although only a handful of the prospects given up ever pan out, we can look to these deals as an explanation as to why the farm isn't quite as highly regarded as it once was. No doubt some of the deals made sense at the time, but it definitely handicaps your future (especially if you chose not to resign some of the acquisitions).

[JPM0016]

those are the risks you have to take. The only prospects mentioned that were significant losses were Carlos Gullien and Freddy Garcia. But looking back, i'd still pull the trigger to acquire Johnson, it was clearly our best shot at a world series.

Roberston, McKnight, Ginter, Halama were all given their shots with the ballclub and amounted to nothing. Buck has some offensive skills but it remains to be seen what he can do on the major league level.

Our triple A farm system has been depleted because we've called the guys up.

Morgan Ensberg
Adam Everett
Jason Lane

etc...

[MadMax]

chrisjent --

there was actually an article on ESPN.com about this a while back, that wasn't astro specific. it did this type of analysis for all the teams that had made these moves and in most instances the player traded for was never signed by the team that traded for himi....and in many instances, the prospects traded turned out to be legit major leaguers.

the problem is that management is under pressure. they're always perceived as not doing enough. we hear that all the time here. so if they don't make the beltran move, you'll have people screaming, "why didn't we get beltran" when a rival picks him up...and when we do you'll hear, "man..we gave up too many good prospects to get him." it's always a 20/20 hindsight thing.

[chrisjent]

Upshoot is there will be alot of holes to fill. These trades while not crippling the franchise did nothing to help

Gerry has shown that he is aggressive, but at the same time he has been unable to put the final pieces together.

The bullpen he cobbled through trades this season were supposed to add stability...

the result: Weathers, Harville, Backe, Duckworth...not one of those acquisitions has worked out.

the guys he let go outright, getting nothing in return include Stone, Linebrink, Brocail, and Lugo. Not a good track record from this pov.

While Gerry is no Randy Smith, he also isn't the baseball genius some folks would lead you to believe.

[JPM0016]

Originally posted by chrisjent
the guys he let go outright, getting nothing in return include Stone, Linebrink, Brocail, and Lugo. Not a good track record from this pov.


these are the guys your going to use?

Of course Gerry didn't get anything in return because these players amounted to nothing while they were here.

[chrisjent]

You failed to respond to Gerry's acquisitions of the past year. All besides the pettite/clemens/beltran no-brainers and the possible find in the Robertson trade have been disasterous.

The bully went from Lidge/Dotel/Wagner to Weathers or Harville/Miceli/Lidge. There was a reason why Miceli was on about four teams last year and why Harville couldn't crack the A's rotation for 3 years (although you'll see Saarloos has in less than 3 months). Still Gerry bit.

Off the top of my head, insofar as the other guys, I believe Stone set a rookie record for appearances and was much better than some of the current options this year. Lugo was the starting SS at the time of his release. Even Ward had trade value, yet Gerry sucked that opportunity dry by holding onto him a year too long. And why don't I throw Ron Villone in there as well. I think he performed better than any 5th starter we've thrown out there this year (granted we had a glut at SP at the beginning of the season, but Gerry took care of that in a hurry too- at least we'll have Tavaras to show for Robertson trade).

[The Real Shady]

Originally posted by chrisjent
You failed to respond to Gerry's acquisitions of the past year. All besides the pettite/clemens/beltran no-brainers and the possible find in the Robertson trade have been disasterous.

The bully went from Lidge/Dotel/Wagner to Weathers or Harville/Miceli/Lidge. There was a reason why Miceli was on about four teams last year and why Harville couldn't crack the A's rotation for 3 years (although you'll see Saarloos has in less than 3 months). Still Gerry bit.

Off the top of my head, insofar as the other guys, I believe Stone set a rookie record for appearances and was much better than some of the current options this year. Lugo was the starting SS at the time of his release. Even Ward had trade value, yet Gerry sucked that opportunity dry by holding onto him a year too long. And why don't I throw Ron Villone in there as well. I think he performed better than any 5th starter we've thrown out there this year (granted we had a glut at SP at the beginning of the season, but Gerry took care of that in a hurry too- at least we'll have Tavaras to show for Robertson trade).

You forgot to mention the Lamb find. That was a nice pickup.

[rockets-#1]

All I know is, this was supposed to be the Astros year. I really bought into the "our turn" thing. Unless they practically win out up until the deadline, this team is done. If they do, awesome, I might gain back some respect for this team. If not, then you'll get a bunch of prospects back as we tear the team apart. It's definitely gonna be a while before the Astros do anything now, unless it's NOW.

[rrj_gamz]

Just a rumor, but I think if nothing happens soon, he's gone...

Carlos Rumor (http://www.pe.com/sports/baseball/notebooks/stories/PE_Sports_Local_dodgers_notes_22.a12cb.html)

Beltran may interest LA

DODGERS notebook

12:26 AM PDT on Thursday, July 22, 2004

LOS ANGELES - The Dodgers are among the teams rumored to be interested in Houston outfielder Carlos Beltran, who could go on the trading block for the second time this year if the Astros continue their downhill slide in the National League Central Division.

Beltran will be a free agent after this season, but Dodgers general manager Paul DePodesta said Tuesday that he wouldn't shy away from pursuing a player who could test the market after the season ends.

The Astros acquired Beltran in late June from Kansas City in a three-way trade that sent closer Octavio Dotel to Oakland. Dodgers setup man Guillermo Mota seems a likely candidate to be offered to Houston if DePodesta goes after Beltran, who hit has eight home runs in 82 at-bats since being acquired by the Astros.

"We've put ourselves in a situation where I think the onus is on the teams that are behind us," Dodgers outfielder Dave Roberts. "We're not waiting for what could be added to this team. We're taking care of business by ourselves right now and whatever he (DePodesta) decides to do, that's on him."

[Lil Francis]

What about a Beltran for Bradley swap. That way we would have a solid top of the lineup hitter and centerfielder for next season. I would love to keep Beltran but if he wants to play elsewhere then unload him.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by rrj_gamz
Just a rumor, but I think if nothing happens soon, he's gone...

Carlos Rumor (http://www.pe.com/sports/baseball/notebooks/stories/PE_Sports_Local_dodgers_notes_22.a12cb.html)

Beltran may interest LA

DODGERS notebook

12:26 AM PDT on Thursday, July 22, 2004

LOS ANGELES - The Dodgers are among the teams rumored to be interested in Houston outfielder Carlos Beltran, who could go on the trading block for the second time this year if the Astros continue their downhill slide in the National League Central Division.

Beltran will be a free agent after this season, but Dodgers general manager Paul DePodesta said Tuesday that he wouldn't shy away from pursuing a player who could test the market after the season ends.

The Astros acquired Beltran in late June from Kansas City in a three-way trade that sent closer Octavio Dotel to Oakland. Dodgers setup man Guillermo Mota seems a likely candidate to be offered to Houston if DePodesta goes after Beltran, who hit has eight home runs in 82 at-bats since being acquired by the Astros.

"We've put ourselves in a situation where I think the onus is on the teams that are behind us," Dodgers outfielder Dave Roberts. "We're not waiting for what could be added to this team. We're taking care of business by ourselves right now and whatever he (DePodesta) decides to do, that's on him."

We could of had Mota + summer for Hidalgo this past summer! Hunsicker didn't pull the trigger!

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
We could of had Mota + summer for Hidalgo this past summer! Hunsicker didn't pull the trigger!

I meant to say...

We could of had Mota + a minor leaguer for Hidalgo this past summer. Hunsicker didn't pull the trigger!

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
I meant to say...

We could of had Mota + a minor leaguer for Hidalgo this past summer. Hunsicker didn't pull the trigger!

Link?

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Link?

I read it at Latimes.com... (I think)

Pancho, who is the equivalent DocRocket at Fanhome.com, mentioned it in one of his threads. It corroborated by the article in LA Times (I think). It was this past off season.


it was mentioned here also.

http://mb3.theinsiders.com/flosangelesdodgersfrm1.showMessageRange?topicID=918.topic&start=3901&stop=3920


the link to Latimes.com has expired...

www.latimes.com/sports/ba...mlb-dodger

[codell]

bigboy,

Pretty weak stuff if you ask me.

The part of the article that that BBS poster posted seems nothing more than speculation.

"Dan Evans has resumed his pursuit of a trade to boost the team's offense, with Houston outfielder Richard Hidalgo emerging as a possible candidate."

Where's the proof that they offered us Mota and a minor leaguer??

Where's the proof that Hunsicker said no to any deal??

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by codell
bigboy,

Pretty weak stuff if you ask me.

The part of the article that that BBS poster posted seems nothing more than speculation.

"Dan Evans has resumed his pursuit of a trade to boost the team's offense, with Houston outfielder Richard Hidalgo emerging as a possible candidate."

Where's the proof that they offered us Mota and a minor leaguer??

Where's the proof that Hunsicker said no to any deal??

I know it is pretty weak. I am pretty sure someone else read it. Sorry, I looked for the link it for about 30 minutes.

[bigboymumu]

However, I will tell you that Pancho knows his stuff. If you have a chance, go to the site and read some of the things he writes.

[codell]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
However, I will tell you that Pancho knows his stuff. If you have a chance, go to the site and read some of the things he writes.

Did Pancho say that Hunsicker turned down that trade or that we were offered Mota?

BTW, I doubt the Dodgers would have even given us Mota for Doggy. JMO though.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by codell
Did Pancho say that Hunsicker turned down that trade or that we were offered Mota?

BTW, I doubt the Dodgers would have even given us Mota for Doggy. JMO though.

You have to think back. People were complaining about the Wagner deal. Hidalgo was our MVP at that point, he had one more year left on his contract, he was considered our best defensive outfielder. They had Gagne, they needed a stick. Hunsicker thought we were ok with Dotel/Lidge/Miceli. It made sense back then.

It turned out to be a mistake. Hindsight/past performance... whatever you want to call it.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by codell
Did Pancho say that Hunsicker turned down that trade or that we were offered Mota?

Pancho wrote it first but then it was mentioned either at Sportsline.com or one of the LA newspapers.(Latimes.com)

[gunn]

Mota, by himself, is just simply not enough for Beltran.

[codell]

Well just have to disagree there (re: Hidalgo's value).

Even after his rebound season, he was still overpaid. $12 MIL for .300 28 HRS and 90 RBIS is a lil steep.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by gunn
Mota, by himself, is just simply not enough for Beltran.

If we're not going to resign him, he's better than nothing.

[gunn]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
If we're not going to resign him, he's better than nothing.

Getting a bag of peanuts back is better than nothing, but it doesn't justify the transaction.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by gunn
Getting a bag of peanuts back is better than nothing, but it doesn't justify the transaction.

I look at the deal as Dotel and Buck for Mota +. We lose in that deal. Dotel alone is better than Mota. IMO

[Nick]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Dotel alone is better than Mota. IMO

Not really, when you consider that Dotel could ONLY be a CLOSER for us... with as fragile that his psyche is, you honestly think he would have succeeded by being demoted to the 8th inning set-up man again?

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by Nick
Not really, when you consider that Dotel could ONLY be a CLOSER for us... with as fragile that his psyche is, you honestly think he would have succeeded by being demoted to the 8th inning set-up man again?

When has Mota ever been a closer? So as eighth inning guys, Dotel is the best!

[Nick]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
When has Mota ever been a closer? So as eighth inning guys, Dotel is the best!

Maybe... but you have to realize that Dotel couldn't have been an 8th inning guy for US anymore... he's just too fragile to accept that demotion.

Thus Mota (who is STILL an 8th inning guy) compared to the Dotel of THIS year, would probably be a more effective pitcher for us THIS year and the years beyond, than Dotel would have been.

Its interesting that guys like Dotel, Felix Rodriguez, Kyle Farnsworth, and (maybe) Mota have probably the BEST arms in the whole entire world... but not one has either the mental capacity or the moxie to be THE closer for any team.

Sure, they'll get some saves here and there... but they're entirely different pitchers when the pressure is all on them.

[gunn]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
I look at the deal as Dotel and Buck for Mota +. We lose in that deal. Dotel alone is better than Mota. IMO

That's how everyone should look at that deal. If we deal Beltran to the Dodgers we better be asking for Jackson. If not Edwin, then Mota plus a top notch, MLB ready position prospect (which I'm not sure that L.A. currently has available).

[Miguel]

In the words of the great Matt Jackson....


What if the PTBNL was Jeff Bagwell?

[Nick]

Originally posted by Miguel
In the words of the great Matt Jackson....


What if the PTBNL was Jeff Bagwell?

Also, on that note (seriously)... what if Oliver was just a down-payment for somebody like Beltran?

Say Gerry told them... "If we're still in this thing by the deadline, you'll get some no-name reliever... but if we're NOT in this thing... we'll work on a deal for Beltran.
Give us a down-payment of Oliver, and you can be assured you're in the race..."

[bigboymumu]

You're giving Hunsicker too much credit.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by Nick
Maybe... but you have to realize that Dotel couldn't have been an 8th inning guy for US anymore.

I agree with that point. But, I don't think Dotel is too fragile to accept the demotion. It's just how the real world works. Players like Dotel don't really get demoted in this league, they are moved!

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by gunn
That's how everyone should look at that deal. If we deal Beltran to the Dodgers we better be asking for Jackson. If not Edwin, then Mota plus a top notch, MLB ready position prospect (which I'm not sure that L.A. currently has available).

A top notch catcher and 3rd sacker is what I would be asking for. Or we keep Beltran and Drayton can say we never gave up on this team and we can get the two 1st rounders.

Or ... If they want Beltran, they have to take a bad contract... Ausmus and I can't think of anyone else.. But Mota, a prospect, and take Ausmus... seems fair!

[loadedAballer]

It's time for major decisions.

Make Beltran the franchise player to lead the club for the next several years (along with Berkman).

Ship Bagwell and Kent out for prospects. Give Lane and Taveras a shot. Move Berkman to 1st base and pick-up Biggio's option and put him back to 2nd base.

c Ausmus/Chavez

1b Berkman
2b Biggio
3b Ernsberg

of Beltran
of Taveras
of Lane

ss Everett

This team's best chance to reach the World series was when they won 102 games. They choked against Kevin Brown. Ever since then, this team was good but not good enough and time eventually caught up with them.

[Lil Francis]

Originally posted by loadedAballer
It's time for major decisions.

Make Beltran the franchise player to lead the club for the next several years (along with Berkman).

Ship Bagwell and Kent out for prospects. Give Lane and Taveras a shot. Move Berkman to 1st base and pick-up Biggio's option and put him back to 2nd base.

c Ausmus/Chavez

1b Berkman
2b Biggio
3b Ernsberg

of Beltran
of Taveras
of Lane

ss Everett

This team's best chance to reach the World series was when they won 102 games. They choked against Kevin Brown. Ever since then, this team was good but not good enough and time eventually caught up with them. Yeah thats a pretty good plan. I never did like Berkman playing the outfield anyway because his lack of range and average arm. I would still like to upgrade the catcher's position because Aumus is terrible at the plate.