Our Defense sucks too !

[DaDakota]

Our offense has been inconsistent to say the least, our pitching suspect, but our defense is horrible.

Biggio in left is a far below average outfielder
Beltran - above average
Berkman - average
Ensberg - below average
Everett - Above average
Kent - Below average
Bags - Below average
Ausmus - average

The team has no speed, and lousy arms.

Time for some new blood, after watching Biggio butcher left field, I would put Lane in there.

DD

[Mr. Clutch]

Biggio needs to move back to 2nd if we pick up his option. He's a better hitter than Kent this year anyways.

[studogg]

so tell me what you really think dada

[rockets-#1]

I don't think it's that much of a concern considering the other things we're worried about. As long as the pitchers can consistently keep a team around 3-5 runs, and the batters could score 4, 5, maybe even 6 (for the first time since the first week of the season) then the 'Stros should be alright. Basically what I'm saying is, we can get around the subpar defense if the guys just start hitting.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by Mr. Clutch
Biggio needs to move back to 2nd if we pick up his option. He's a better hitter than Kent this year anyways.

Nope! He has limited range there also. DO NOT PICK UP HIS OPTION! Trade Kent if you can.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by rockets-#1
I don't think it's that much of a concern considering the other things we're worried about. As long as the pitchers can consistently keep a team around 3-5 runs, and the batters could score 4, 5, maybe even 6 (for the first time since the first week of the season) then the 'Stros should be alright. Basically what I'm saying is, we can get around the subpar defense if the guys just start hitting.

I could not disagree more! Teams that win are very good on defense!

Pitchers are only as good as their defense!

[gunn]

Originally posted by Mr. Clutch
Biggio needs to move back to 2nd if we pick up his option.

Dear God NO!

[rudager]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Pitchers are only as good as their defense!

Actually, that doesn't seem to be the case: the only reliable stats that correlate to a pitcher's success are the things he can control--home runs, walks, and strikeouts. Ratios of hits to balls put in play vary unpredictably over the long term.

Defense is overrated, as is speed (teams that run a lot are often less successful in run-scoring). Pitchers that keep the ball in the park and have high K:BB ratios are far more important than a fast outfield.

On offense, OPS is everything.

[Hammer755]

Originally posted by rudager
Actually, that doesn't seem to be the case: the only reliable stats that correlate to a pitcher's success are the things he can control--home runs, walks, and strikeouts. Ratios of hits to balls put in play vary unpredictably over the long term.

Defense is overrated, as is speed (teams that run a lot are often less successful in run-scoring). Pitchers that keep the ball in the park and have high K:BB ratios are far more important than a fast outfield.

On offense, OPS is everything.

Wow, a fellow DIPS proponent. I thought I was alone over here. :D

I actually think you're putting too little emphasis on defense however. I think defense is pretty important up the middle, particularly if you have a primarily ground ball pitching staff.

[Mr. Clutch]

Originally posted by gunn
Dear God NO!

Why not? Poor defense? How much worse than Kent would he be?

[gunn]

Originally posted by Mr. Clutch
Why not? Poor defense? How much worse than Kent would he be?

I don't know if you watched Biggio butcher second two years ago but it was down right disturbing. I don't even want to envision him going back there after aging two more years and not having played anything near the infield in that time.

[rudager]

Originally posted by Hammer755
Wow, a fellow DIPS proponent. I thought I was alone over here. :D

I actually think you're putting too little emphasis on defense however. I think defense is pretty important up the middle, particularly if you have a primarily ground ball pitching staff.

Well, I was responding to the comment that pitchers are only as good as their defense, which is a totally false statement. Defense is obviously something to pay attention to, but a manager should always take a good offensive/bad defensive player over a good defensive/bad offensive player. Fielding percentage is practically a useless statistic when you consider how little an error every now and then means to a team's season compared to a guy who walks a lot, hits doubles and wears pitchers down.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by rudager
Actually, that doesn't seem to be the case: the only reliable stats that correlate to a pitcher's success are the things he can control--home runs, walks, and strikeouts. Ratios of hits to balls put in play vary unpredictably over the long term.

Defense is overrated, as is speed (teams that run a lot are often less successful in run-scoring). Pitchers that keep the ball in the park and have high K:BB ratios are far more important than a fast outfield.

On offense, OPS is everything.

Wow! You've been watching Baseball Tonight. Or better yet, you read Billy's book. It's all about stats I guess. I guess you're one of those that believe you can replace scouts with computers. Guess what, you can't! The truth is, you need to look no further than teams such as the Giants, Dodgers,... and Marlins. The teams that get to the balls that would otherwise leave the infield. When you have arms in the outfield, many doubles turn into long singles. See, pitchers challenge hitters when they know that their position players can get to balls that seem to look like hits right off of the bat. See, you can look at last years fielding %s and think that the Astros were solid on defense. But, I look at that stat and think that numbers do not paint the entire picture. The Biggios, Kents, Lambs, Bagwells, ... of the world complete plays when they get to them. However, they DO NOT GET to the plays that average players get to (nevermind the above average defensive players). See if our position players had better range, better arms, and better instincts, our pitchers would look better. I guarantee their ERAs and WHIPs would be noticeably better. I'll give you an example to prove my point. Beltran robbed M Young of a homerun in the first inning of a game against the Rangers. Can you guess what could of happened if Carlos didn't rob Young? Do you think Oswalt would of pitched through the 8th inning? Do you think one run would of been enough for us to win by? NO and NO!

IT'S TIME TO CLEAN HOUSE!

[Xenon]

It's so disturbing the amount of glaring weaknesses this team has. I'm not as big of the proponent as OPS>alll crowd, but I still think it's a very useful stat. Looking at you can see that the Astros as a group are very very average. This is inexcusable given some of the names out there. Biggio for one is an average left fielder, but his defense is just killing us. I would like us to explore the option of putting him back behind the plate. Sure it will be open season on the basepaths, but the opportunity to replace a lousy hitter like Ausmus with Biggio, improving our outfield defense (hopefully), and putting another potential rbi guy out there everyday (Lane) is something this teams needs. The offense is in dire need of a shot in the arm and the team should make every effort to get their best hitters out there at all times.

[rudager]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
I guess you're one of those that believe you can replace scouts with computers. Guess what, you can't! The truth is, you need to look no further than teams such as the Giants, Dodgers,... and Marlins.

Look no further than the A's, a team built on OPS, DIPS and little else. Replacing scouts with computers has made them--with the third lowest payroll in baseball--among the most successful teams in baseball over the last few years, and they've begun to change the way other teams approach scouting.

Originally posted by bigboymumu
I'll give you an example to prove my point. Beltran robbed M Young of a homerun in the first inning of a game against the Rangers. Can you guess what could of happened if Carlos didn't rob Young? Do you think Oswalt would of pitched through the 8th inning? Do you think one run would of been enough for us to win by? NO and NO!


Can you guess what would happen if the Astros OPS were better than eighth in the NL? Well, here are the teams in baseball with better OPS's than the Astros:

Red Sox
Rangers
Yankees
White Sox
Rockies
Tigers
Indians
Cardinals
Phillies
Giants
A's
Cubs
Angels
Braves
Orioles
Reds

Only three of these teams have worse records: the Tigers (who are just a couple of games worse), the Rockies (who benefit from a perenially inflated slugging) and the Orioles (whom I can't explain). The one thing the rest of the teams have in common? They're good.

Fielding percentage is much less a predictor:

Dodgers (based on record, a good team)
Cubs (good)
Expos (bad)
Mariners (bad)
Marlins (average)
A's (good)
Reds (good)
Cardinals (very good)
Phillies (good)
Astros (average)

That's the top ten. 60% good/very good, 40% bad/average. Pretty scattered. For the top ten OPS teams (discounting the always freakishly skewed Rockies for obvious reasons), you have all good/very good teams, save the Tigers, who are average and, not surprisingly, suffer from a bad team ERA.

Anyway, blaming the defense for the Astros woes is overlooking the real issue they're a middle-of-the-pack OPS team with, naturally, a middle-of-the-pack record.

[rudager]

Originally posted by rudager
Orioles (whom I can't explain).

Wait...I can explain their record in spite of their OPS: they have the third worst team ERA in baseball.

EXPOSED



Oh, and I meant to note that my little post above was only quasi-scientific, but I think the point is still valid and apparent.

[bigboymumu]

Rudager,

Our defense is terrible!
We have one above average reliever!
We don't have enough left-handed sticks in our everyday line-up!
Our offense is terrible!
We are too slow!

The funny thing is.... most of you guys think Hunsicker is doing a good job! By the way, I figured you were a Billy fan. Can you guess I am not?! I believe you win with PITCHING, DEFENSE, SPEED, and a BALANCED OFFENSE... You don not sacrifice those four things. (Herzog type teams)

By the way, when was the last time the A's won anything? Also, did you read my post? I am not a proponent of fielding %. I actually believe OPS is a worthy stat. Just don't underestimate defense!

[MadMax]

the over-reliance on OPS is funny to me. like a new discovery revolutionizing a game that is well over 100 years old. i'm not buying it.

it's an important stat...no doubt about it. but it takes more than that to win championships...to win ballgames.

for all the talk about the A's...is that really an approach you'd take universally with a bigger payroll???? and how many playoff series and championships has their approach won for them??

i think we have an overhyped, intensive focus on OPS because a guy wrote an interesting book about beane that reads as much like a management/business book as it does a baseball book. i'm not about to throw out the role of scouting and replace it with a bunch of rotesserie geeks staring at charts.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by rudager
but I think the point is still valid and apparent.

If you think so!

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Rudager,

Our defense is terrible!
We have one above average reliever!
We don't have enough left-handed sticks in our everyday line-up!
Our offense is terrible!
We are too slow!

The funny thing is.... most of you guys think Hunsicker is doing a good job! By the way, I figured you were a Billy fan. Can you guess I am not?! I believe you win with PITCHING, DEFENSE, SPEED, and a BALANCED OFFENSE... You don not sacrifice those four things. (Herzog type teams)

By the way, when was the last time the A's won anything? Also, did you read my post? I am not a proponent of fielding %. I actually believe OPS is a worthy stat. Just don't underestimate defense!

bigboy...please tell me you're not blaming the astros woes on hunsicker. they've put together a team that had the best april in franchise history...this team is capable of far more than they're playing to right now. that's not gerry's fault. it's not drayton's fault. and it won't be garner's or jimy's fault...the blame rests solely with the players...it rests with berkman who batted around .200 in june...it rests with bagwell, who is a shadow of his former self, albeit by injury...it rests with oswalt, who is looking less and less like an ace. but make no mistake...the team assembled, playing anywhere close to their potential, is a good team...a playoff caliber team. i can't fault management or ownership for not doing enough. not this season.

surprisingly, i'm with you on the moneyball thoughts.

[bigboymumu]

Ask any pitcher whether he would prefer an above average defense behind him or an above average offensive line-up? The majority would say an above average defense!

[rudager]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Our defense is terrible!
We have one above average reliever!
We don't have enough left-handed sticks in our everyday line-up!
Our offense is terrible!
We are too slow!

I know!

Originally posted by bigboymumu
By the way, when was the last time the A's won anything?

Uh, they won 96 games last year, 103 in 2002 and 102 in 2001. So, to answer your question, quite recently.

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Also, did you read my post? I am not a proponent of fielding %. I actually believe OPS is a worthy stat. Just don't underestimate defense!

I don't. I'm just saying the number one issue is OPS. Until the Astros get on base, they will continue to lose, regardless of their defense.

[bigboymumu]

Madmax,

I don't agree. The players are to blame; but, I think Hunsicker makes too many mistakes! This team has too many deficiencies. It's not just the offense, it's not just the defense, it's not just the coaches (Jimy, Harry..), it's not just relievers, it's not just starters...

I truly believe the you point the finger at those that make the decisions. I blame the snake oil salesman and Gerry!

[rudager]

Originally posted by MadMax
the over-reliance on OPS is funny to me. like a new discovery revolutionizing a game that is well over 100 years old. i'm not buying it.

I don't know why you wouldn't--a team with no money to waste becomes very successful after refocusing their scouting toward OPS. Several years in a row, despite giving up huge free agents they couldn't afford.

Originally posted by MadMax
and how many playoff series and championships has their approach won for them??

Baseball playoffs are unpredictable. A lucky break here, an error here, an uncharacteristically bad outing by a pitcher--these can alter the course of a short series. Over the length of a season, though, the statistics don't lie. The amount of luck involved in winning a championship relative to the clear science of winning a lot of regular season games is disturbing.

Originally posted by MadMax
i think we have an overhyped, intensive focus on OPS because a guy wrote an interesting book about beane that reads as much like a management/business book as it does a baseball book. i'm not about to throw out the role of scouting and replace it with a bunch of rotesserie geeks staring at charts.

I don't know why you wouldn't:
geeks with little money = many wins
scouts with lots of money = sometimes wins, sometimes losses

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Madmax,

I don't agree. The players are to blame; but, I think Hunsicker makes too many mistakes! This team has too many deficiencies. It's not just the offense, it's not just the defense, it's not just the coaches (Jimy, Harry..), it's not just relievers, it's not just starters...

I truly believe the you point the finger at those that make the decisions. I blame the snake oil salesman and Gerry!

you're being ridiculous...there wasn't a baseball guy around who was predicting the team the astros were trotting out in april wasn't capable of competing with the big boys. no one was predicting a last place finish..or next to last place finish...for this team. don't tell me you were, either.

again...this group of players has already shown what they're capable of during the first month of the season. they haven't lived up to expectations....but that isn't the GM's fault.

[rudager]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Ask any pitcher whether he would prefer an above average defense behind him or an above average offensive line-up? The majority would say an above average defense!

I doubt that, but even if it were true, so what?

Good offense is more strongly correlated to winning than good defense.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by rudager


I don't know why you wouldn't:
geeks with little money = many wins
scouts with lots of money = sometimes wins, sometimes losses


there's an interesting little study..what's the sample size on that one? :)

come on...one team with a deep farm system...that has traditionally had a deep farm system with heralded scouts...has been able to replace talent out with young talent in. that's been done before. it's happening in atlanta this season. let's see what happens when other teams start dropping their studs and taking the same approach on a regular basis. my guess is you'll never see that happen.

baseball is way too complex to judge everything by one statistic. to judge a player's worth by one statistic. to judge the makeup of a team by one statistic. that's silly.

brought to you by the same folks who say having a good closer is overrated....and then trade for dotel midseason.

[rudager]

Originally posted by MadMax
again...this group of players has already shown what they're capable of during the first month of the season.

Exactly. They had the same defense (save Beltran), but they were tearing up the NL with OFFENSE. The offense has disappeared, hence so have the wins.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by rudager
Exactly. They had the same defense (save Beltran), but they were tearing up the NL with OFFENSE. The offense has disappeared, hence so have the wins.

agreed...it's on the players.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by MadMax
you're being ridiculous...there wasn't a baseball guy around who was predicting the team the astros were trotting out in april wasn't capable of competing with the big boys. no one was predicting a last place finish..or next to last place finish...for this team. don't tell me you were, either.

again...this group of players has already shown what they're capable of during the first month of the season. they haven't lived up to expectations....but that isn't the GM's fault.

Are you kidding me? You are giving Gerry way too much credit. Roger and Andy wanted to come home. Gerry is not a genius for signing the two. The guy didn't address any of the issues that I pointed out in earlier posts.

They showed what they were caable of during the first month? Well, explain to me what happened with the rest of the season. It is really a moot point. I am tired of being negative. I think the solution is pretty simple. Get rid of the old, bring in the new! Keep the starters and Lidge! Make as many changes as you can to the rest of the team!

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by MadMax
brought to you by the same folks who say having a good closer is overrated....and then trade for dotel midseason.

:D

[rudager]

Originally posted by MadMax
agreed...it's on the players.

Except Jimy Williams' inexplicable love of the Adam Everett sac bunt:

Waste Not, Want Not: We'll use an example from the Astros game against St. Louis on June 4, but any Houston fan could name a half-dozen others. Craig Biggio led off the game with a double to left field, bringing up shortstop Adam Everett.

Nice start, right? On the way to a big inning, right? Wrong, if you're Jimy Williams, who's never met a pointless sacrifice bunt that didn't seem like a good strategic decision, especially with Everett at the plate. So far in 2004, Everett has 19 sacrifice bunts in 61 games, by far the most in the majors.

So, as ever, Williams asked Everett to lay down a bunt. He couldn't get the bunt down, and the Astros eventually stranded Biggio at second base.

In James Click's series on the sacrifice bunt, we learned that the threshold for a bunt in a runner on second, no out situation is .249/.305/.363--that is, if the batter's numbers are below that threshold, a bunt makes sense. Otherwise, the batter should hit away.

Everett is currently at .282/.316/.370 this year, which means that a bunt with a runner on second and no one out is a bad play with Everett at the plate (although, not as bad a play as you might think). And keep in mind, that situation is the best situation for a sacrifice bunt when you're trying to maximize the number of runs you score; any other situation early in a game is an even worse time to lay one down.

This is old news to most of you out there, but apparently Williams hasn't gotten the memo on this. In a lineup that features four players with a VORP in double digits, Williams' penchant for throwing away outs and runs early in games is especially baffling, and if Houston comes up short in the NL Central, he'll deserve a great deal of the blame.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2978

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Are you kidding me? You are giving Gerry way too much credit. Roger and Andy wanted to come home. Gerry is not a genius for signing the two. The guy didn't address any of the issues that I pointed out in earlier posts.

They showed what they were caable of during the first month? Well, explain to me what happened with the rest of the season. It is really a moot point. I am tired of being negative. I think the solution is pretty simple. Get rid of the old, bring in the new! Keep the starters and Lidge! Make as many changes as you can to the rest of the team!

I don't give Gerry much credit for Pettite and Clemens..except for the fact he got the deal done. How about McLane?? Do you give him any credit for this??

Explain to you what happened the rest of the season?? sure...they haven't performed to their capabilities. That happens all the time in pro sports...and when it does, you point fingers at the ones who are underperforming. I freaking love Lance Berkman...but batting .200 in the 3-hole for June without a homer ain't gonna cut it. His HR today was the first in 80-something AB's. They have zero production out of the heart of the order. That's their problem. That was not an issue in April when Hidalgo was doing his best Clemente impersonation and the rest of the guys, save Berkman's very early season slump, were going like gangbusters.

again...there was no reason for anyone to expect this team wouldn't perform when they were signed and put out on the field to play for the houston astros this season. did you think they'd be a contender??? or did you think they'd be in last place?? i read a lot of reports from all sorts of baseball folks...no one...not one...said, "yeah...this team has no firepower...won't produce any runs from the heart of their order, they'll probably finish in the bottom half of the NL Central." Hunsicker had good reason to believe the team they were trotting out would be sufficient.

[MadMax]

rudager --

another thing i disagree with the stat geeks on...i remember the cardinals of the 80's killing teams by getting on base with bunts. by moving runners over.

by the way...this logic isn't limited to jimy. if you were looking for changes from garner, you probably weren't too happy in the first inning today when everett bunted AFTER BIGGIO HAD ALREADY GROUNDED OUT TO OPEN THE INNING!

[rudager]

Originally posted by MadMax
come on...one team with a deep farm system...that has traditionally had a deep farm system with heralded scouts...has been able to replace talent out with young talent in.

The farm system is deep because they draft the right guys (college players who get walks).

Originally posted by MadMax
let's see what happens when other teams start dropping their studs and taking the same approach on a regular basis. my guess is you'll never see that happen.

The Jays have begun to do it, as have the Red Sox (who hired one of Beane's geeks).

Originally posted by MadMax
baseball is way too complex to judge everything by one statistic. to judge a player's worth by one statistic. to judge the makeup of a team by one statistic. that's silly.

I don't judge players or teams by one statistic. I just said this stat, which our average team is average in, is the single greatest predictor of team success. In other words, stop talking about defense and focus on offense.

[rudager]

Originally posted by MadMax
rudager --

another thing i disagree with the stat geeks on...i remember the cardinals of the 80's killing teams by getting on base with bunts. by moving runners over.

by the way...this logic isn't limited to jimy. if you were looking for changes from garner, you probably weren't too happy in the first inning today when everett bunted AFTER BIGGIO HAD ALREADY GROUNDED OUT TO OPEN THE INNING!

You have to separate sac bunts and bunts for hits. Giving up an out to move a runner is usually a bad idea because outs are so valuble, but if you can get on with a bunt...well, hell, who's going to complain?

[MadMax]

Originally posted by rudager




The Jays have begun to do it, as have the Red Sox (who hired one of Beane's geeks).

.

theo isn't holding to these formulas at all. the red sox were a team of sluggers last year and they're a team of sluggers this year, too. they live and die by the long ball.

i haven't followed the jays much. but i don't think there's much progress to point to there.

again...we'll see. i think it's far less likely that baseball will get turned on its head by overdependnce on one stat than you do.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by rudager
You have to separate sac bunts and bunts for hits. Giving up an out to move a runner is usually a bad idea because outs are so valuble, but if you can get on with a bunt...well, hell, who's going to complain?

moving a runner over is baseball. putting a runner in a better position to score is baseball. even if it means giving up an out in the first inning. this is another place where i part ways with the moneyball folks.

[NIKEstrad]

Originally posted by MadMax
brought to you by the same folks who say having a good closer is overrated....and then trade for dotel midseason.

Where's the discrepancy? :p

(j/k, We sure could use the guy...anyone else now feel we took the Lidge-Dotel-Wagner troika for granted?)

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by MadMax
How about McLane?? Do you give him any credit for this??


HECK NO! Mr. Snake Oil Salesman had to do something after Wagner called him out! Pettitte fell in his lap. He saw how many season tickets he sold after that signing. So he went out and signed Clemens. The guys is motivated by one thing... IN GOD WE TRUST! He doesn't care if we win. Les does whatever he has to do to win. I really DO NOT like Drayton!

[rudager]

Originally posted by MadMax
theo isn't holding to these formulas at all. the red sox were a team of sluggers last year and they're a team of sluggers this year, too. they live and die by the long ball.

They have the highest OPS in baseball.

Originally posted by MadMax
again...we'll see. i think it's far less likely that baseball will get turned on its head by overdependnce on one stat than you do.

I think it already has...at least on a micro (team) level.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
HECK NO! Mr. Snake Oil Salesman had to do something after Wagner called him out! Pettitte fell in his lap. He saw how many season tickets he sold after that signing. So he went out and signed Clemens. The guys is motivated by one thing... IN GOD WE TRUST! He doesn't care if we win. Les does whatever he has to do to win. I really DO NOT like Drayton!

so he signs kent in the offseason before...signs pettitte (fell in his lap?? he still has to write the check, bigboy!) signs clemens. brings in beltran in july....and they owner and the gm haven't done enough???

right. your baseball commentary leaves something to be desired, bigboy. ;)

[MadMax]

Originally posted by rudager
They have the highest OPS in baseball.



that may be so...i don't know. but this is not a team built around moneyball concepts...not at all. if they have the highest OPS then it flies in the face of the logic of building a beane-styled team.

by the way...they have the highest OPS in baseball...and if the season ended tonight, would they even be in the playoffs? are they first in the wild card right now?

[rudager]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
HECK NO! Mr. Snake Oil Salesman had to do something after Wagner called him out! Pettitte fell in his lap. He saw how many season tickets he sold after that signing. So he went out and signed Clemens. The guys is motivated by one thing... IN GOD WE TRUST! He doesn't care if we win. Les does whatever he has to do to win. I really DO NOT like Drayton!

So you'd rather he not have signed Pettitte and Clemens?

[MadMax]

Originally posted by rudager
So you'd rather he not have signed Pettitte and Clemens?

commentary too clouded by his own bias against the guy. he says at the end he doesn't like him...doesn't matter what he does.

[rudager]

Originally posted by MadMax
that may be so...i don't know. but this is not a team built around moneyball concepts...not at all. if they have the highest OPS then it flies in the face of the logic of building a beane-styled team.

by the way...they have the highest OPS in baseball...and if the season ended tonight, would they even be in the playoffs? are they first in the wild card right now?

Well, they're not built in the Beane style because they can afford not to be.

They're tied with Oakland for the Wild Card lead.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by rudager
So you'd rather he not have signed Pettitte and Clemens?

come on, that's not fair!

[MadMax]

kent
pettitte
clemens
beltran

yeah...i blame gerry and drayton. :rolleyes: give me a break.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by MadMax
kent
pettitte
clemens
beltran

yeah...i blame gerry and drayton. :rolleyes: give me a break.

Dotel, Wagner, Hidalgo...:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[rudager]

Originally posted by MadMax
kent
pettitte
clemens
beltran

yeah...i blame gerry and drayton. :rolleyes: give me a break.

Well, you can blame them for Bagwell (assuming he continues to play like this), Everett and Ausmus. But, yeah, this isn't a .500 team on paper. (Or a two games below .500 one for that matter! :mad:)

[rudager]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Dotel, Wagner, Hidalgo...:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Look, the guy's only got so much money for the team to use. No closer is worth $8 million, and Wagner's departure opened the door for two quality starters (one would be just fine, but we got two). Dotel wasn't doing his job, and he's been even worse in Oakland. Hidalgo, well, we need more time to see if it really was just a kink in his swing, but even if it is, it's hardly Drayton's job to figure that out.

[gunn]

Originally posted by MadMax
bigboy...please tell me you're not blaming the astros woes on hunsicker. they've put together a team that had the best april in franchise history

Max I wouldn't consider going 13-9 something remarkable.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Dotel, Wagner, Hidalgo...:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

And who signed the latter to big contracts so they could spend more years here? :rolleyes:

[Buck Turgidson]

Casey Stengel didn't even have an abacus.

Dumbass.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by gunn
Max I wouldn't consider going 13-9 something remarkable.

translates to about 95 wins, gunn.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Dotel, Wagner, Hidalgo...:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

great response, bigboy.

[gunn]

Originally posted by MadMax
translates to about 95 wins, gunn.

It's one month Max. You can't look at one single month and project how the rest of the season is going to go. The Royals two years ago started the season something like 16-0, that "translates" to a record to the tune of 162-0. Did that happen? Starting the season 16-0 is remarkable, going 13-9 is not.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by gunn
It's one month Max. You can't look at one single month and project how the rest of the season is going to go. The Royals two years ago started the season something like 16-0, that "translates" to a record to the tune of 162-0. Did that happen? Starting the season 16-0 is remarkable, going 13-9 is not.

of course you can't. clearly. the point is, they had a good month. they took care of business, and there was reason for optimism....we saw what they were CAPABLE of.

i'm not saying they showed they were world series contenders...i'm saying they confirmed they could compete. which is what we all expected...

sometimes i get the impression you argue with me just for the sake of arguing.

[gunn]

Originally posted by MadMax
of course you can't. clearly. the point is, they had a good month. they took care of business, and there was reason for optimism....we saw what they were CAPABLE of.

i'm not saying they showed they were world series contenders...i'm saying they confirmed they could compete. which is what we all expected...

sometimes i get the impression you argue with me just for the sake of arguing.


That's hardly the case. I'm just keeping your, sometimes radical, statements in check.

[DaDakota]

Max has been viewing the team through rose colored glasses all year.

He lauds Biggio and his good BA, yet fails to see how a outfielder with slow foot speed, and a noodle arm is not all that big of a threat at the leadoff spot.

Put someone that gets on base and has speed and can create at the leadoff and you have something.

The Astros are underacheiving because they keep waiting for their players to break out of the slump.

DD

[Groogrux]

Name the better offensive lead off men this year, DD. I'm guessing the list will be short.

Thanks.

[JPM0016]

Originally posted by DaDakota
Put someone that gets on base and has speed and can create at the leadoff and you have something.


.306 average, 14 home runs, 37 RBI's, he's just not getting it done at leadoff :rolleyes:

He's been the only consistent hitter the astros have had. Playing Left Field at Minute Maid park doesn't make him a liability. Last time i checked he had a short amount of ground to cover and at that position you rarely have to worry about throwing someone out at the plate

You can complain about Bagwell, Berkman, Kent, Ensberg, etc... but Biggio has been the one bright spot; other than Clemens

[gunn]

The funny thing is RM95, the game is not one-dimensional.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by gunn
The funny thing is RM95, the game is not one-dimensional.

Exactly! DO NOT EXTEND BIGGIO!

[MadMax]

Originally posted by DaDakota
Max has been viewing the team through rose colored glasses all year.

He lauds Biggio and his good BA, yet fails to see how a outfielder with slow foot speed, and a noodle arm is not all that big of a threat at the leadoff spot.

Put someone that gets on base and has speed and can create at the leadoff and you have something.

The Astros are underacheiving because they keep waiting for their players to break out of the slump.

DD

when have i viewed the TEAM through rose-colored glasses, DD? at the beginning of the season i was in line with everyone else who thought this team had a legit shot. not just people here, but the experts as well.

and yes...i don't understand how a noodle arm has anything to do with batting in the leadoff spot. you make zero sense.

again...you're asking for a player that doesn't exist in today's game. or if he does, there are few of them. and there are few that bat in biggio's spot in the lineup on any team that have been as offensively productive as biggio has been. you can try to refute that, but you'll fail.

agreed that the astros are waiting for players to break out of a slump..but biggio isn't one of those guys. it's guys with names like bagwell, berkman and kent who can't seem to drive in runs. there's the problem, offensively. when the meat of your order can't drive in runs, you've got a problem.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by gunn
The funny thing is RM95, the game is not one-dimensional.

yeah..cause we all know how integral exceptional LF defense is for championship teams.

[gunn]

Originally posted by MadMax
yeah..cause we all know how integral exceptional LF defense is for championship teams.

Biggio has played center for most part of the season. And yes, when you miss routine plays anywhere in the field, it becomes costly.


...and to add; it's not all about missed plays, sometimes it's about making plays, something of which Biggio is immune to.

[DaDakota]

Originally posted by JPM0016
.306 average, 14 home runs, 37 RBI's, he's just not getting it done at leadoff :rolleyes:

He's been the only consistent hitter the astros have had. Playing Left Field at Minute Maid park doesn't make him a liability. Last time i checked he had a short amount of ground to cover and at that position you rarely have to worry about throwing someone out at the plate

You can complain about Bagwell, Berkman, Kent, Ensberg, etc... but Biggio has been the one bright spot; other than Clemens

Dude,

Did you see him bungle that fly ball to the wall against the Padres, and then they score 5 runs?

The guy is a good hitter, not saying he isn't, just that with his diminished speed he would be better at an RBI producing spot rather than Leadoff.

Me, I would bat Beltran at the Leadoff spot.

DD

[MadMax]

Originally posted by gunn
Biggio has played center for most part of the season. And yes, when you miss routine plays anywhere in the field, it becomes costly.

the problem is, we've seen berkman miss those same plays.

in all fairness, gunn...we've asked the guy to switch positions two times in about 1.5 years now. and he's not a young guy. you're asking a guy who's played up the middle his entire career to go give you above-average defense at a corner spot?? i can think of a handful of guys who could pull that off, and they're mostly young guys.

again....admitted he's a liability in the field. but i don't think we are where we are because of craig biggio's defense in the outfield. and when i read people post that here, it makes me wonder if people are even watching these games. i think you're getting enough production at the plate to more than offset for his liabilities in the field. and i think he's being judged more harshly as a defensive outfielder...on a standard higher than other OF's are judged by.

[DaDakota]

Originally posted by MadMax

agreed that the astros are waiting for players to break out of a slump..but biggio isn't one of those guys. it's guys with names like bagwell, berkman and kent who can't seem to drive in runs. there's the problem, offensively. when the meat of your order can't drive in runs, you've got a problem.

Exactly,

So why not bat your most consistent hitter at a spot where he can generate RBIs?

DD

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by gunn
The funny thing is RM95, the game is not one-dimensional.

The funny thing is gunn, DaDakota was attributing Biggio's defense to Biggio not being a good leadoff hitter, which doesn't fly. No one argues that Biggio's a stellar outfielder, but when one argues that he's not one of the top leadoff HITTERS in the game this year, it reeks of crap.

No GM in his right mind wouldn't extend Biggio's contract if the season ended today. Maybe that's why you and bigboymumu are posting on an internet site instead of working at MMP.

BTW, I asked bigboymumu nearly three weeks ago to name me the teams that Biggio wouldn't be starting for. I'm still waiting.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by DaDakota
Dude,

Did you see him bungle that fly ball to the wall against the Padres, and then they score 5 runs?

The guy is a good hitter, not saying he isn't, just that with his diminished speed he would be better at an RBI producing spot rather than Leadoff.

Me, I would bat Beltran at the Leadoff spot.

DD

yeah...they scored 5 runs because he "bungled" the ball. it had nothing to do with the fact they were knocking oswalt all over the place.

you'd be wasting Beltran, then. you want to move a lesser run producer in biggio to the 3 spot?? the 5 spot?? to take away the only guy who is really driving in runs and put him at the leadoff spot?? not a good idea.

this just in...no one is running bases anymore. how often do you see stolen bases, period? i don't see the yanks running the bases..or the sox...or the cubs...or the cards...i just don't see it. the game has changed a ton, in that regard.

[DaDakota]

Biggio has had a good year offensively no doubt, but he can not stop the guy going from first to third, and he has trouble judging the balls that slice away from him in left field.

Biggio is not a big problem, it is clearly the lackadasical play of everyone else.

I would rather see some young guys like Lane getting some real playing time, to see where the team needs to go for next season.

However, the first thing I would do is bench Bagwell.....move Berkman to first and insert Lane.

DD

[Groogrux]

Beltran played a ball in one of the Padres games that was much worse than anything Biggio's done this year because Beltran didn't even try to get to the ball. Biggio's made sacrifice after sacrifice for this team and the best he gets from some of you "fans" is that he sucks and shouldn't be brought back next year.

Not to mention, ever since that Chicago series at Wrigley, Beltran's been pretty horrendous at the plate.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by MadMax
in all fairness, gunn...we've asked the guy to switch positions two times in about 1.5 years now. and he's not a young guy. you're asking a guy who's played up the middle his entire career to go give you above-average defense at a corner spot?? i can think of a handful of guys who could pull that off, and they're mostly young guys.


No more excuses. HE HASN"T PULLED ANYTHING OFF. HE IS TERRIBLE! Biggio is a liability anywhere he plays. I do not think his offense is good enough to cover up his liabilities on defense. At this point, our defense IS as bad as our offense. (maybe worse) I don't want to waste another year with this core. Either bring up the young guys or go out there and address the liabilities!

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Beltran played a ball in one of the Padres games that was much worse than anything Biggio's done this year because Beltran didn't even try to get to the ball. Biggio's made sacrifice after sacrifice for this team and the best he gets from some of you "fans" is that he sucks and shouldn't be brought back next year.

Not to mention, ever since that Chicago series at Wrigley, Beltran's been pretty horrendous at the plate.

Really funny! Beltran? You are comparing a gold glove centerfielder.... Forget it! I give up!

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
No more excuses. HE HASN"T PULLED ANYTHING OFF. HE IS TERRIBLE!

credibility: LOST

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by MadMax
credibility: LOST

:D

[gunn]

Originally posted by MadMax
again....admitted he's a liability in the field. but i don't think we are where we are because of craig biggio's defense in the outfield.

I think it can go in any direction in any given game. The bottom line is that he is a liability anywhere in the field and as each day the sun sets he gets one day older and one day slower. It seems to me that you and JPM and RM95 are looking solely at his offensive production and disregard the whole picture by saying that, "his offensive numbers outweigh everything else". It's not all about numbers. Nevermind the routine plays in which he outright blows, how about his limited range that doesn't allow him to get to balls that others get to or how about his speed on the basepaths that may not allow him to stretch that double into a triple or single into a double or go from first to third on a single or second to home. In saying this I'm not saying that he is dreadful on the paths but he's not drinking from the fountain of youth, you know. How about the shadow of losing and lack of production of late that some of these characters cast on the younger players and clubhouse as a whole. There comes a time when organizations have to know when to hold'em and when to fold'em (which it seems as if this organization doesn't seem to know when to let go). It might be reasonable to consider Biggio for a one year deal, but anything other than that would be ridiculous.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by gunn
I think it can go in any direction in any given game. The bottom line is that he is a liability anywhere in the field and as each day the sun sets he gets one day older and one day slower. It seems to me that you and JPM and RM95 are looking solely at his offensive production and disregard the whole picture by saying that, "his offensive numbers outweigh everything else". It's not all about numbers. Nevermind the routine plays in which he outright blows, how about his limited range that doesn't allow him to get to balls that others get to or how about his speed on the basepaths that may not allow him to stretch that double into a triple or single into a double or go from first to third on a single or second to home. In saying this I'm not saying that he is dreadful on the paths but he's not drinking from the fountain of youth, you know. How about the shadow of losing and lack of production of late that some of these characters cast on the younger players and clubhouse as a whole. There comes a time when organizations have to know when to hold'em and when to fold'em (which it seems as if this organization doesn't seem to know when to let go). It might be reasonable to consider Biggio for a one year deal, but anything other than that would be ridiculous.

gunn --

i don't disagree with anything you just posted, except the idea i'm only looking at him offensively. i'm not saying he's an MVP. i'm acknowledging his defensive liability while also asserting that he may be the most consistent offensive component we have this season.

i'm not saying you ink biggio to a long term deal at all after this season.

but juxtapose that against some of the other comments here ....he sucks?? he shouldn't be starting on any MLB team?? those are ridiculous comments. if i'm biased for biggio...these guys have weightier biases against him, completely unwilling to consider the offensive half of his game right now.

btw...the basepaths stuff....i think it's overrated in today's game. so few players are running the basepaths, period.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Really funny! Beltran? You are comparing a gold glove centerfielder.... Forget it! I give up!

Did you see the play I'm referring to? I'm not comparing Biggio's defense at all to Beltran's, I'm just bemoaning the attention that's placed on Biggio's defense and the dimissal of his offensive numbers by some of you.

BTW, you have those teams yet?

[gunn]

Originally posted by MadMax

btw...the basepaths stuff....i think it's overrated in today's game. so few players are running the basepaths, period.

What do you mean? All players run the basepaths. Steals may be less emphasized, sadly, but that doesn't mean it's not a productive, exciting, and great way to play baseball. The league is full of parody, what works for one team may not work for others. The Marlins of last year was one of the most exciting teams i've ever seen play the game of baseball. Ever. They won by playing the game in its purist state, and in my humble opinion, the way the game is supposed to be played. What's overrated is a team comprised of one-dimensional hitters, teams like the Astros.

[DaDakota]

Yeah,

Biggio is awesome...especially the way he allowed that shoestring ball to go underneath his glove and allowing the go ahead run to score.

GREAT JOB !!!

Sure, our pitching was suspect, but you have to HELP the pitching too....

PLEASE put Lane in there...at least he can field.

Biggio had his day...it is over.

DD

[JBIIRockets]

I just saw this. That was blantantly bad. I know left fielders dont need to be the best defenders but, biggio is bad enough defensivly to affect the astros W-L totals. He's lost three games now with blunders in left field and he hasn;t even been there that long.

[gunn]

Originally posted by gunn
Biggio has played center for most part of the season. And yes, when you miss routine plays anywhere in the field, it becomes costly.


...and to add; it's not all about missed plays, sometimes it's about making plays, something of which Biggio is immune to.

I think now is a solid time to reiterate a post I made earlier today. Defense is overrated right Max, RM95, JPM?

[JBIIRockets]

Originally posted by JBIIRockets
He's lost three games now with blunders in left field and he hasn;t even been there that long.

ok maybe just 2 games........nice clutch job by Ensberg.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by gunn
I think now is a solid time to reiterate a post I made earlier today. Defense is overrated right Max, RM95, JPM?

Yeah, those three errors this year have killed us.

Here, I'll make a bet with you (one that can never be proven). You take Biggio with no errors, above average fielding, and batting .250 with 4 HRs, 20 RBI and a .300 OBP.

I'll take the current incarnation.

All things being equal, my team is better than your's.

Again, there's hardly a GM in the majors that wouldn't take Biggio this year, especially at his current salary level. You want us to take a look at the big picture? You take a look, y'all are only focusing on the defense. Look at the offense, look at the salary. Only an idiot would say he shouldn't be playing.

[Mr. Clutch]

What about Lane? Better fielding and arm than Biggio. And hitting not as good but probably would do .270 with 20 bombs or so.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Rudager,

Our defense is terrible!
We have one above average reliever!
We don't have enough left-handed sticks in our everyday line-up!
Our offense is terrible!
We are too slow!

The funny thing is.... most of you guys think Hunsicker is doing a good job! By the way, I figured you were a Billy fan. Can you guess I am not?! I believe you win with PITCHING, DEFENSE, SPEED, and a BALANCED OFFENSE... You don not sacrifice those four things. (Herzog type teams)

By the way, when was the last time the A's won anything? Also, did you read my post? I am not a proponent of fielding %. I actually believe OPS is a worthy stat. Just don't underestimate defense!

If Gunn can do it, I should be able too!:D

[gunn]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Yeah, those three errors this year have killed us.

Here, I'll make a bet with you (one that can never be proven). You take Biggio with no errors, above average fielding, and batting .250 with 4 HRs, 20 RBI and a .300 OBP.

I'll take the current incarnation.

All things being equal, my team is better than your's.

Again, there's hardly a GM in the majors that wouldn't take Biggio this year, especially at his current salary level. You want us to take a look at the big picture? You take a look, y'all are only focusing on the defense. Look at the offense, look at the salary. Only an idiot would say he shouldn't be playing.

Or...


.....you could come up with other preposterous scenarios, speak more often in hindsight, and make more blanket statements.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by gunn
Or...


.....you could come up with other preposterous scenarios, speak more often in hindsight, and make more blanket statements.

Shouldn't you be in the clubhouse right now?

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Shouldn't you be in the clubhouse right now?

Another example of your crap! You think you are actually adding to this discussion!

[DaDakota]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Another example of your crap! You think you are actually adding to this discussion!

I just giggle when I read this.....I hear it in my head, sounds like Denis Leary.

RM95 just likes pointing fingers.....no harm.

DD

[gunn]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Shouldn't you be in the clubhouse right now?

Wow that's a great one. How long did it take you to come up with that? Sadly, I bet you've been waiting all day to display that one.

[Groogrux]

Just like y'all were probably rooting for Biggio to make an error so you could come here and gloat.

Love,
RM95,
Once again estatic that gunn and bigboymumu are nothing more than fellow yahoos on an internet message board and not the GM of my beloved Astros!

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Just like y'all were probably rooting for Biggio to make an error so you could come here and gloat.

Love,
RM95,
Once again estatic that gunn and bigboymumu are nothing more than fellow yahoos on an internet message board and not the GM of my beloved Astros!

Say what you want.

Biggio is a liability. It's time for changes.

Use the 3 million that we would pay Biggio next year on an 8th inning guy!

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Say what you want.

Biggio is a liability. It's time for changes.


Again, thanks for not being the GM of my beloved Astros. Can you please, please, pretty please, name all the team that Craig Biggio wouldn't start for. I've been asking for three weeks now.

[gunn]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Just like y'all were probably rooting for Biggio to make an error so you could come here and gloat.

"Rooting", hardly. I think what we are all hoping for the Astros to succeed, but I do find solace in the irony of your situation.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Again, thanks for not being the GM of my beloved Astros. Can you please, please, pretty please, name all the team that Craig Biggio wouldn't start for. I've been asking for three weeks now.

Cubs- Alou
Bay- Pirates
Matsui- Yankees
Dunn- Reds
Gonzalez- D'backs
Jenkins- Brewers
Crawford- D'Rays
Lee- White Sox
Guillen- Angels
Lawton- Indians
Ford- Twins
Ramirez- Red Sox
Burrell- Phillies
White- Tigers
Bonds- Giants
Jones- Braves
Floyd- Mets
Roberts- Dodgers
Ibanez- Mariners
Catalanatto-B'Jays
Stewart- Twins
....

[Groogrux]

You know good and well that the question was regarding the OFs, not just the LFs, especially since Biggio's the team player he is and willing to try and play any position.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
You know good and well that the question was regarding the OFs, not just the LFs, especially since Biggio's the team player he is and willing to try and play any position.

You're joking right? You can add every team to that list then. No way he would play any other position anywhere else. He has cost us at least two games since he moved to left.

[gunn]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
You know good and well that the question was regarding the OFs, not just the LFs, especially since Biggio's the team player he is and willing to try and play any position.

I'm sure that the compiled list of teams with your specifications would generally be the same; with only a few exceptions...

I would add St. Louis, San Diego, Oakland, and Texas to that list too.

[MadMax]

you guys are literally insane. talking baseball with gunn and bigboy is ridiculous. you'll scream bias because we defend biggio's hitting, while making no excuses for his defense. meanwhile, you completely disregard his offensive production this season and look at him solely as a liability because the team has asked him to switch positions twice in the last 1 1/2 years.

the offensive numbers speak for themselves...this team isn't losing games because of craig biggio. if you think that, you're not watching the games very closely or you don't know jack-diddly-damn about baseball.

[gunn]

Originally posted by MadMax
you guys are literally insane. talking baseball with gunn and bigboy is ridiculous. you'll scream bias because we defend biggio's hitting, while making no excuses for his defense. meanwhile, you completely disregard his offensive production this season and look at him solely as a liability because the team has asked him to switch positions twice in the last 1 1/2 years.

the offensive numbers speak for themselves...this team isn't losing games because of craig biggio. if you think that, you're not watching the games very closely or you don't know jack-diddly-damn about baseball.

That's ludacris Max. I've already explained to you that it's not just his defense, but the whole package. Maybe you have been so wrapped up in OPS statistics that you missed a few games, I don't know, but Biggio has definitely lost games for us this year with his subpar defense, and in which case I can name several of the games off hand.

Offensively Biggio is having a career year, but at his age it's definitely more of an anomaly than a regularity.

Again, we've already explained to you that it's not just defense but you would rather make that an oversight and proclaim that we are biased, when in actuality you guys are the ones coming off as biased.

[DaDakota]

Originally posted by MadMax
.this team isn't losing games because of craig biggio.

Well his defense is certainly not helping. Last night a catchable ball falls below his glove and the Dodgers get 2 runs out of it.

His offense has been great, but his defense sub par.

Actually the whole darned team is sub par.

DD

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by MadMax
this team isn't losing games because of craig biggio. if you think that, you're not watching the games very closely or you don't know jack-diddly-damn about baseball.

I watch enough to know that Biggio has cost us at least two games since the move to left field!

Since you know so much, tell us what you would do to improve this team.... Save the personal attacks!

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
I watch enough to know that Biggio has cost us at least two games since the move to left field!

Since you know so much, tell us what you would do to improve this team.... Save the personal attacks!

there's no way to improve this team at this point. they moved for beltran. that's the last step they'll take, and i don't blame management.

but i wouldn't be pointing the blame for their problems on craig freaking biggio.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by gunn


Again, we've already explained to you that it's not just defense but you would rather make that an oversight and proclaim that we are biased, when in actuality you guys are the ones coming off as biased.

ok...what else is it again?? "on the basepaths???" this guy is the only one GETTING to the basepaths on the whole freaking team.

please, gunn.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by MadMax
there's no way to improve this team at this point. they moved for beltran. that's the last step they'll take, and i don't blame management.

but i wouldn't be pointing the blame for their problems on craig freaking biggio.

If there is no way to improve this team, then it is time to prepare for next year. By now, the Astros should know if they are going to keep Beltran. Personally, I would not sign him for the 15 million per. It's time to trade Beltran. Kent is a liability on defense, it's time to trade him (if he is willing to go). Give the Burke's of the world some ABs. Let them get their feet wet.

[Mr. Clutch]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
If there is no way to improve this team, then it is time to prepare for next year. By now, the Astros should know if they are going to keep Beltran. Personally, I would not sign him for the 15 million per. It's time to trade Beltran. Kent is a liability on defense, it's time to trade him (if he is willing to go). Give the Burke's of the world some ABs. Let them get their feet wet.

Let's wait a few weeks. Without Jimy's weird lineups, who knows, maybe this team will gain some consistency on offense.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
If there is no way to improve this team, then it is time to prepare for next year. By now, the Astros should know if they are going to keep Beltran. Personally, I would not sign him for the 15 million per. It's time to trade Beltran. Kent is a liability on defense, it's time to trade him (if he is willing to go). Give the Burke's of the world some ABs. Let them get their feet wet.

Keeping Beltran isn't a one-way street. He's not going to commit to them long-term this season. He's going to want to at least test the free agent market.

I don't have a problem giving Burke some AB's. Partciularly as the season wanes on. But past that, we don't have a ton of position player prospects who wow anyone.

[gunn]

Originally posted by MadMax
ok...what else is it again?? "on the basepaths???" this guy is the only one GETTING to the basepaths on the whole freaking team.

please, gunn.

Yea Max, it's a combination of things. You seem to be taking a stance of "you against the world", when no one here is placing the season's woes on Biggio's shoulders. He is having an excellent offensive year (which again, is probably more an anomaly more than anything) but that in no way, shape, or form overshadows the fact that he's probably the worst outfielder currently playing and his play on the field is backing that up.

Again, like I previously stated, it's feasible to consider Biggio for next year, but the reality is that it is past due to move in a different direction.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by gunn
Yea Max, it's a combination of things. You seem to be taking a stance of "you against the world", when no one here is placing the season's woes on Biggio's shoulders. He is having an excellent offensive year (which again, is probably more an anomaly more than anything) but that in no way, shape, or form overshadows the fact that he's probably the worst outfielder currently playing and his play on the field is backing that up.

Again, like I previously stated, it's feasible to consider Biggio for next year, but the reality is that it is past due to move in a different direction.

gunn -- given our posts yesterday, i'm not sure i'm even arguing with you. you said yesterday you would even consider resigning biggio to a one year deal. i'm drawing sharp contrast between that and the "he sucks" /"he wouldn't play for any other MLB team" language. but then you switch and back up that argument providing teams you say he wouldn't play for. which is it?

what does moving in a different direction mean and how is it related to the biggio argument the rest of us here have bene having if you're willing to resign biggio to a one-year deal next season?

other than the basepaths and defense, what is the combination of things?

[gunn]

Originally posted by MadMax
gunn -- given our posts yesterday, i'm not sure i'm even arguing with you. you said yesterday you would even consider resigning biggio to a one year deal. i'm drawing sharp contrast between that and the "he sucks" /"he wouldn't play for any other MLB team" language. but then you switch and back up that argument providing teams you say he wouldn't play for. which is it?

what does moving in a different direction mean and how is it related to the biggio argument the rest of us here have bene having if you're willing to resign biggio to a one-year deal next season?

other than the basepaths and defense, what is the combination of things?

What are you not understanding? It's feasible (and I would consider it - I didn't say sign him up!) to resign him to a one-year deal, but it's past due to move in a different direction.

Max, are you having a hard time distinguishing between my posts and bigboymumu's? I didn't say that he couldn't play for any MLB team. I think there could possibly be seven teams, other than the Astros, that he could play for, maybe; but that in my opinion is based on offensive production this year, i'm not taking into account that he is the worst fielder in the league and will give away opportunities and games. Maybe there's less teams, maybe there's more, but I'm not going around acting like his offensive output will earn him a starting spot on the majority of MLB depth charts.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by gunn
What are you not understanding? It's feasible (and I would consider it - I didn't say sign him up!) to resign him to a one-year deal, but it's past due to move in a different direction.

Max, are you having a hard time distinguishing between my posts and bigboymumu's? I didn't say that he couldn't play for any MLB team. I think there could possibly be seven teams, other than the Astros, that he could play for, maybe; but that in my opinion is based on offensive production this year, i'm not taking into account that he is the worst fielder in the league and will give away opportunities and games. Maybe there's less teams, maybe there's more, but I'm not going around acting like his offensive output will earn him a starting spot on the majority of MLB depth charts.

and i disagree with you. i think if the cubs thought they could get that kind of production at the top of the order, they'd put patterson on the bench, for example.

keep in mind...that while fingers get pointed at biggio, he has more HR's this season than Jeff Kent and Jeff Bagwell. that's sad.

[gunn]

Originally posted by MadMax
and i disagree with you. i think if the cubs thought they could get that kind of production at the top of the order, they'd put patterson on the bench, for example.

keep in mind...that while fingers get pointed at biggio, he has more HR's this season than Jeff Kent and Jeff Bagwell. that's sad.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this specific case, because it's a matter of opinion. But imo, the difference between the two offensively does not make up for the huge gap their is between them defensively. On top of that your asking Biggio to play center at Wrigley with the sun and the wind, come on, you would be throwing games away. I see the angle you are taking with the Cubs and their run production, or lack thereof, but again, it's a matter of opinion. Apparently, the Cubs are content with Patterson in center, because they seem to be currently looking for offensive production in the infield.

[MadMax]

gunn -- i hear ya. i guess what frustrates me is that watching this team lose night in and night out...i don't see biggio being the key factor in that. i see a group of hitters in the 3-4-5-6 slots that freaking can't drive in runs, period. and i think that's the number one factor. agreed our defense has left something to be desired...and last night we watched the bullpen come in and find a way to lose the game. but ultimately, if the rbi guys in this lineup were hitting like rbi guys, i think you'd be able to overlook biggio's concerns in the OF. or maybe then we could address them. but it seems like we have much bigger fish to fry. and the stuff that gets posted here nearly daily tends to reference him more than others. it just seems silly to me. the only guy they can count on consistently at the plate, at all. the only guy who, at the plate, is doing the job he was asked to do.

[gunn]

Originally posted by MadMax
but it seems like we have much bigger fish to fry. and the stuff that gets posted here nearly daily tends to reference him more than others. it just seems silly to me. the only guy they can count on consistently at the plate, at all. the only guy who, at the plate, is doing the job he was asked to do.

Max, they are fans looking for a goat, and Biggio's defense is most certainly applicable for being that goat. It's a matter of opinion and the goat will vary from person to person. To some it's the bullpen, starters, the defense (specifically Biggio) and to others, its the manager, or the heart of the line-up, or the personality of the club, or Gerry, or Drayton, or whom or whatever. The fact of the matter is that nothing seems to be right with this team and that should weigh heavily on everyones shoulders. In my opinion, this team is done, and next season if not sooner, it's time to move in a different direction.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by gunn
Max, they are fans looking for a goat, and Biggio's defense is most certainly applicable for being that goat. It's a matter of opinion and the goat will vary from person to person. To some it's the bullpen, starters, the defense (specifically Biggio) and to others, its the manager, or the heart of the line-up, or the personality of the club, or Gerry, or Drayton, or whom or whatever. The fact of the matter is that nothing seems to be right with this team and that should weigh heavily on everyones shoulders. In my opinion, this team is done, and next season if not sooner, it's time to move in a different direction.

It's actually all of those for me. I am a proponent of making changes. If you believe this team isn't going anywhere then we should agree. The reason why I bring up Biggio isn't because I have some sort of vendetta against him. It's because of past decisions, we are stuck in a tight spot. IMO, it is a waste of time talking about Bagwell's production. He will be on the books one way or another for 3 more years. It's a moot point. If you want to talk about giving Bags some time to rest his shoulder than we can. But, we all know we are stuck with the guy. If Bagwell was up for a new contract, and he was having the year that Biggio is having offensively but was a defensive liability (which he is), I would be saying the same thing about him. (even though he is my favorite player of all time) Same goes for any other player.


I say play Burke, bring in a catcher that is not a liablity on offense, bring in a centerfielder that bats left handed with excellent range and a good arm, bring in an everyday third baseman and shore up the relievers. Then, I would be ok with extending Biggio. If we have to sacrifice any of those other aspects of the game to sign Biggio then it is time to move on.