Bags and Biggio

[Rocket River]

If they could. . .should the be traded?

They are not that great and
how many managers have they run
and
really .. they have never been able to close the deal

I heard old boy on 610
get pissed talking about RESPECT
my question was: Where was the respect for HAKEEM?
and they are NO WHERE near the ICON Hakeem is

Rocket River

[Lil Pun]

Shouldn't this go in the correct forum?

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Rocket River
If they could. . .should the be traded?

They are not that great and
how many managers have they run
and
really .. they have never been able to close the deal

I heard old boy on 610
get pissed talking about RESPECT
my question was: Where was the respect for HAKEEM?
and they are NO WHERE near the ICON Hakeem is

Rocket River

hakeem was not under contract.

hakeem's performance with toronto backed that up.

again..i understand the problems you have with bagwell this season. i don't understand the problems you have with biggio this season.

[Mr. Clutch]

I'm not sure what the heck it has to do with Hakeem. Why even bring him into this issue?

Bags and Biggio won't be traded. Nobody will take Bags and Biggio is performing very well.

They deserve respect anyways.

[Severe Rockets Fan]

Originally posted by MadMax
i don't understand the problems you have with biggio this season.
I guess it would take another post season for you to remember...

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Severe Rockets Fan
I guess it would take another post season for you to remember...

this season, biggio has been our most consistent offensive force. you have to get to the postseason first.

should the giants have traded bonds because he didn't perform in the playoffs before 2002?

should the red sox have traded ted williams?

you keep players who help you get to the playoffs. you can only assume they will perform in the playoffs the way they did in the regular season. it's on them if they don't.

but right now, you're paying biggio around $4 million and you have arguably the best leadoff hitter. that's value.

[Uprising]

Exactly MadMax. Biggio has been great for us this season.

[Oski2005]

Bagwell signed his contract when he was still good. Dream's contract ended when he was already half the man he used to be.

[KingCheetah]

Originally posted by Lil Pun
Shouldn't this go in the correct forum?

:rolleyes:

[dylan]

Originally posted by MadMax
i don't understand the problems you have with biggio this season.

You forget of course that he's white.

[AntiSonic]

Originally posted by Mr. Clutch
I'm not sure what the heck it has to do with Hakeem. Why even bring him into this issue?


Personally, I was always shocked and disgusted at how much more support the Astr0s and Bagwell and Biggio got compared to Hakeem and co.

Hakeem gets over the hill and just about everyone is chomping at the bit to get rid of him. Bagwell and Biggio have CONSISTENTLY proven that they cannot take this time past even the first round of the playoffs, yet they are untouchable. :rolleyes:

[JPM0016]

Originally posted by AntiSonic
Hakeem gets over the hill and just about everyone is chomping at the bit to get rid of him. Bagwell and Biggio have CONSISTENTLY proven that they cannot take this time past even the first round of the playoffs, yet they are untouchable. :rolleyes:

last time i checked Bagwell and Biggio have had no trade clauses for years. At the same time Biggio continues to perform at a high level at 38.

[Rocket River]

Originally posted by dylan
You forget of course that he's white.

what does this have to do with anything
[another shameless attempt to derail a thread]

:rolleyes:

Rocket River

[Rocket River]

Originally posted by AntiSonic
Personally, I was always shocked and disgusted at how much more support the Astr0s and Bagwell and Biggio got compared to Hakeem and co.

Hakeem gets over the hill and just about everyone is chomping at the bit to get rid of him. Bagwell and Biggio have CONSISTENTLY proven that they cannot take this time past even the first round of the playoffs, yet they are untouchable. :rolleyes:

this is my point exactly
Bags and Biggio . . . L'Astros in general . .
have gotten WAY more respect and love
than any rocket. . . and the Rockets have CHAMPIONSHIPS

Rocket River

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Rocket River
this is my point exactly
Bags and Biggio . . . L'Astros in general . .
have gotten WAY more respect and love
than any rocket. . . and the Rockets have CHAMPIONSHIPS

Rocket River

seriously..do you understand contracts at all?

bags and biggio have contracts with no trade clauses.

hakeems contract had run up. he was paid a ridiculous sum of money by the Raptors to do virtually nothing.

this isn't about respect. it's about contracts. if the astros could unload bagwell's deal, they would have by now. they will definitely be throwing out the, "isn't it time to retire...let's talk about a buyout" conversation at the end of the season.

you're comparing apples and oranges...guys under long term deals with guys who have no deal.

and biggio...why is he part of your equation here, RR? i dont get it. at $4 million, biggio is a bargain this season.

[Lil Pun]

Originally posted by KingCheetah
:rolleyes:

It got moved...:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[KingCheetah]

Originally posted by Lil Pun
It got moved...:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/kchee/hero.gif


http://smiles.ru/coll/shura/king.gif

[Lil Pun]

Sorry and I don't mean to derail the thread but what is the problem? I simply posted a question asking doesn't this belong in the right forum becasue there is a forum dedicated to this material. People do the same thing all the time so what's wrong with me doing it Cheetah?

[RocketMan Tex]

Trade Bagwell to the Red Sox so he can finish his career as a DH. Boston is probably the only team he would waive his no-trade contract for.

Resign Biggio to no more than a 2 year deal for minimal $$, and have him be the first pinch-hitter/sub off the bench. He should not be starting in the outfield. His hitting has been quite good this year, but he is a defensive liability.

The problem with the Astros is not management or front office, although front office has something to do with it.

The problem with the Astros is age.

They have a roster full of great players who are way past their primes.

After this season, Clemens will be gone. They should not resign Kent. Lance Berkman needs to get out of the outfield and become this team's everyday 1B. Chris Burke needs to be brought up to be the new everyday 2B. Tommy Whiteman needs to be brought up....wonder if they can teach him to play 3rd. Carlos Hernandez needs to finally finish building up his shoulder strength and be brought up.

[Trader_Jorge]

dylan --

I too get the impression than perceived racial injustice drives many of RocketRiver's posts. Whether it is railing on Bags and Biggio and comparing them to a black superstar, Kobe vs accuser, Michael Jackson vs the children, or whether it is taking the side of the player (Boozer) in the player vs. owner debate, it is a consistent theme. As someone with a background in psychology, I can tell you that it is *obvious* what is happening here.

[JPM0016]

Originally posted by RocketMan Tex
Trade Bagwell to the Red Sox so he can finish his career as a DH. Boston is probably the only team he would waive his no-trade contract for.

Resign Biggio to no more than a 2 year deal for minimal $$, and have him be the first pinch-hitter/sub off the bench. He should not be starting in the outfield. His hitting has been quite good this year, but he is a defensive liability.


I agree with your sentiment for the most part but want to single these 2 points out. I honestly can't think of a reason why the Redsox would want to take on Bagwell's 17 million dollar salary for the next three years. He's clearly not the player he was a few years ago; in fact he's probably in the top 5 of most overpayed baseball players.

If Biggio keeps up this pace, he's going to bat over 300, hit over 20 home runs and score over 100 runs. You can't find a better leadoff hitter than that. He plays Left Field; have of which is at Minute Maid Park so as it stands i wouldn't call him a defensive liability. How many Left Fielders win Gold Gloves? If they were to stick him back in Center i'd agree with you but he is servicable in Left.

[Groogrux]

RMTex, you don't believe that Ensberg is the long-term solution at third?

I think we'll still have a very good year next year, especially if we are able to buyout Bagwell or trade him (meaning we can seriously make a run at Beltran).

LF-Biggio
CF-Beltran
RF-Lane
1B-Berkman
2B-Burke
3B-Ensberg
SS-Everett
C-Ausmus (for one more year)

(not projected order, just players, btw)

Then bring up Tavares and the catcher from RR in 2006.

What's the contract situation on our pitchers not named Clemens and Pettitte?

[Zac D]

Originally posted by JPM0016
How many Left Fielders win Gold Gloves?

Two per year, one in each league.


:D

[Zac D]

Originally posted by Zac D
Two per year, one in each league.


:D

I'm an idiot.

Anyway, Biggio rules. :)

[codell]

This thread may end up in the D&D.

Would that be a first?? A thread being moved TWICE??

:)

[Chilly_Pete]

I really don't understand the point of this thread.

Exactly who are you accusing of not having respect for Hakeem, while having it for Bags and Bidge?

I hate the nature of these forums sometimes. This post does not do anything but try and drive a wedge between fans. Why can't you be a fan of both Hakeem and Bagwell. They both put on uniforms for this city.

It goes back to the whole Yao only fans and Steve only fans BS. Grow up.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by Uprising
Exactly MadMax. Biggio has been great for us this season.

This isn't football. Players don't just play on one-side of the ball. Have you ever heard of defense? The guy should not be playing in the outfield. They better not EXTEND is contract! I can't stand locker-room lawyers!

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
This isn't football. Players don't just play on one-side of the ball. Have you ever heard of defense? The guy should not be playing in the outfield. They better not EXTEND is contract! I can't stand locker-room lawyers!

left field. he's not a liability out in left field.

and yes...average to poor defense is forgiven when guys regularly score 100 runs and bat over .300 from the leadoff spot.

[codell]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
This isn't football. Players don't just play on one-side of the ball. Have you ever heard of defense?

How about getting Lamb more playing time?

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by codell
How about getting Lamb more playing time?

How did I know you were going to respond in that manner? :D

We definitely disagree on this issue.

[Toast]

Bagwell's an f'ing trooper. Dude's been playing in so much pain with a bum shoulder for about 2+ years now. He can barely side-arm the ball to the pitcher sometimes. But he still got 100+ RBI last season.

This season it seems it really has taken a toll on him. But he's still a competitor. He's a leader on this team, but no longer one of our greatest players. Hell, we have Berkman, Kent, Beltran. Bags & Biggs still contribute. They just aren't the players they were 4 years ago. If Bagwell's shoulder didn't crash & burn, he'd be a lock for the HOF.

I like this team & I like those players. They just need to get their @sses in gear to at least take the wildcard.

Never was very high on Jimy Williams. Is it too late to get Dierker back? ;)

[codell]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
How did I know you were going to respond in that manner? :D

We definitely disagree on this issue.

So, are you, or are you not for giving Lamb more playing time??

Simple question. :confused:

[The Real Shady]

Originally posted by AntiSonic
Personally, I was always shocked and disgusted at how much more support the Astr0s and Bagwell and Biggio got compared to Hakeem and co.

Hakeem gets over the hill and just about everyone is chomping at the bit to get rid of him. Bagwell and Biggio have CONSISTENTLY proven that they cannot take this time past even the first round of the playoffs, yet they are untouchable. :rolleyes:

Do you ever listen to 610? Bagwell and Biggio have been getting ripped for years by the fans. I personally think that Hakeem had it better then they did, or at least what Bagwell has been getting now from the fans.

[JPM0016]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
This isn't football. Players don't just play on one-side of the ball. Have you ever heard of defense? The guy should not be playing in the outfield. They better not EXTEND is contract! I can't stand locker-room lawyers!

Why can't Biggio play left field? Too much ground to cover? no, so what is it?

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by JPM0016
Why can't Biggio play left field? Too much ground to cover? no, so what is it?

1) No arm!
2) Lacks Instincts!
3) Limited range.
4) Most importantly, if this team does not make it to the playoffs, it is time to get rid of the old and bring in the new. We can't do anything about Bags, but we can do something about Kent and Big. We need to start building for the future!

[MadMax]

i think the concerns of biggio in the outfield are way overrated..way overplayed. i don't think we're losing games because he's out there in left field.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by codell
So, are you, or are you not for giving Lamb more playing time??

Simple question. :confused:

No, Lamb should not be given more PT.

The issue is not Biggio occupying left field. The issue is... Biggio occupying left field next year! NO PLAYOFFS, NO BIGGIO EXTENSION!

[JPM0016]

Originally posted by MadMax
i think the concerns of biggio in the outfield are way overrated..way overplayed. i don't think we're losing games because he's out there in left field.

i agree. On the list of problems plaguing the Astros that has to rank at the bottom.

[codell]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
No, Lamb should not be given more PT.

The issue is not Biggio occupying left field. The issue is... Biggio occupying left field next year! NO PLAYOFFS, NO BIGGIO EXTENSION!

So if we don't make the playoffs this year, its Biggio's fault and therefore, we must let him go??

BTW ...your statement about players not playing on just one side of the ball in baseball is pure BS and you know it. :)

[MadMax]

Originally posted by JPM0016
i agree. On the list of problems plaguing the Astros that has to rank at the bottom.

exactly..and frankly, i think biggio is a big net gain for the 'stros. the guy is going to score 100 runs again, this season. he's batting over .300. i think he's been more integral in wins than he has been the reason for losses.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by codell
So if we don't make the playoffs this year, its Biggio's fault and therefore, we must let him go??

BTW ...your statement about players not playing on just one side of the ball in baseball is pure BS and you know it. :)

Dude,
Are you related to the guy. let me use my caps to spell it out. IF WE DO NOT MAKE THE PLAYOFSS, WE NEED TO MAKE CHANGES. THAT MEANS KENT SHOULD GO, THAT MEANS BIGGIO SHOULD GO, AUSMUS SHOULD GO IF ANYONE TAKES HIM.. THAT MEANS WE NEED TO ADD SPEED ON THE BASE PADS, RANGE ON DEFENSE, LEFT-HANDED STICKS IN THE REGULAR LINE-UP, ARMS IN THE OUTFIELD....

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Dude,
Are you related to the guy. let me use my caps to spell it out. IF WE DO NOT MAKE THE PLAYOFSS, WE NEED TO MAKE CHANGES. THAT MEANS KENT SHOULD GO, THAT MEANS BIGGIO SHOULD GO, AUSMUS SHOULD GO IF ANYONE TAKES HIM.. THAT MEANS WE NEED TO ADD SPEED ON THE BASE PADS, RANGE ON DEFENSE, LEFT-HANDED STICKS IN THE REGULAR LINE-UP, ARMS IN THE OUTFIELD....

One more thing, the 3 million we would use on Biggio next year could be used on a proven reliever!

[codell]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Dude,
Are you related to the guy. let me use my caps to spell it out. IF WE DO NOT MAKE THE PLAYOFSS, WE NEED TO MAKE CHANGES. THAT MEANS KENT SHOULD GO, THAT MEANS BIGGIO SHOULD GO, AUSMUS SHOULD GO IF ANYONE TAKES HIM.. THAT MEANS WE NEED TO ADD SPEED ON THE BASE PADS, RANGE ON DEFENSE, LEFT-HANDED STICKS IN THE REGULAR LINE-UP, ARMS IN THE OUTFIELD....

Im not related to anybody, just trying to understand your logic and what criteria you base it on.

Sounds to me you have some sort of grudge on Biggio and that no matter what he does, or how well he does, that you don't want him back.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
One more thing, the 3 million we would use on Biggio next year could be used on a proven reliever!

That, or we keep a very productive player for 3 million and use some of the Kent money on a proven reliever.

Glad you're not the GM!

[codell]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
One more thing, the 3 million we would use on Biggio next year could be used on a proven reliever!

Your kidding me right??

You think having some middle/set up relief is more important than a having one of the better leadoff hitters in MLB on your team??



:confused:

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by codell
Your kidding me right??

You think having some middle/set up relief is more important than a having one of the better leadoff hitters in MLB on your team??



:confused:

Yes, I do believe that. I would prefer to have Dotel than Biggio! This year, next year, any year after that!

[The Real Shady]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Yes, I do believe that. I would prefer to have Dotel than Biggio! This year, next year, any year after that!

Dotel is going to get more than 3 mill per year.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by The Real Shady
Dotel is going to get more than 3 mill per year.

Ok, I'll take Mota, Rodriguez, Rincon, Hawkins, Farnsworth.....

[Preston27]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Ok, I'll take Mota, Rodriguez, Rincon, Hawkins, Farnsworth.....

And how are we supposed to get them?

[HillBoy]

They have reached the point in time when Garner must place the good of the team above that of Bagwell, Ausmus, Everett, Berkman, Kent, Pettite and the rest of these guys. Actually, at 12 games out, they are well past that point which is why Jimy is sitting in Florida as I write this. It's time to set aside what happened in the past because this is the here and now. There should be one and ONLY one criteria for playing from here on: PRODUCTION. Guys who can't produce on the field should sit and watch from the dugout. They really have no other alternative left to them at this point.

Not that it will do them much good. I see a team that can't pitch or hit - a team that's getting beat by the opponent's 4th and 5th starters - a team that appears to be done. All that's left is the funeral services for the 2004 Astros season.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Farnsworth.....

wait a second...you'd take farnsworth's season over biggio's right now??

please tell me you're joking.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by MadMax
wait a second...you'd take farnsworth's season over biggio's right now??

please tell me you're joking.


OK! Let me make it simple.... I would rather spend that 3 million that would go to Biggio on an 8th inning guy! You guys can pick the one you want. OK?:)

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
OK! Let me make it simple.... I would rather spend that 3 million that would go to Biggio on an 8th inning guy! You guys can pick the one you want. OK?:)

ok...to be clear here. a guy who pitches one inning every other game or so is more valuable than a leadoff hitter batting over .300 and scoring over 100 runs?? at the same dollar value, you'd rather have the occasional 8th inning guy than the guy getting 4-5 AB's every game and hitting over .300?

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by MadMax
ok...to be clear here. a guy who pitches one inning every other game or so is more valuable than a leadoff hitter batting over .300 and scoring over 100 runs?? at the same dollar value, you'd rather have the occasional 8th inning guy than the guy getting 4-5 AB's every game and hitting over .300?

Dude, quit spinning things! Biggio has lost as many games this year (because of his defense) as he has won (because of his offense). The guy is too old. It's time to make changes. Starting with Biggio.


You always defend Drayton, Hunsicker, and Biggio. Interesting that those guys along with Bags are the foundation of the Astros! If you want to blame anybody, you blame those 4!

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
Dude, quit spinning things! Biggio has lost as many games this year (because of his defense) as he has won (because of his offense). The guy is too old. It's time to make changes. Starting with Biggio.


You always defend Drayton, Hunsicker, and Biggio. Interesting that those guys along with Bags are the foundation of the Astros! If you want to blame anybody, you blame those 4!

post some evidence to back up your conclusion that biggio has cost more games than he's helped win.

the guy has been asked to change positions not once, but twice in less than 1.5 seasons. he's playing off an entirely different angle than he ever has before at a corner position. agreed that he's average to below average as a LF. but as a leadoff hitter, few are better right now...and on a team that desparately needs to hit better, he's the only one playing with any consistency.

you always blame drayton, hunsicker, biggio and bagwell. i'm with you on bagwell this season, though it's injury-induced. but you're a freaking moron if you're laying the blame for THIS SEASON on drayton, hunsicker and biggio.

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by MadMax
post some evidence to back up your conclusion that biggio has cost more games than he's helped win.

the guy has been asked to change positions not once, but twice in less than 1.5 seasons. he's playing off an entirely different angle than he ever has before at a corner position. agreed that he's average to below average as a LF. but as a leadoff hitter, few are better right now...and on a team that desparately needs to hit better, he's the only one playing with any consistency.

you always blame drayton, hunsicker, biggio and bagwell. i'm with you on bagwell this season, though it's injury-induced. but you're a freaking moron if you're laying the blame for THIS SEASON on drayton, hunsicker and biggio.

You don't need to resort to name calling. You don't have to agree. We can disagree. It's not the end of the world.

But, I'll give you a prediction. You can call me out if I am wrong. Biggio will not pull his weight next year. He is doing fine this year (offensively) but he is too old. You do not have to wait until it's too late to make changes. i.e. Bagwell!!!!

[Phillyrocket]

I love Biggio and Bagwell too but watching Bagwell this year has been a painful experience. Actually watching this team has been painful.

Honestly this has to be the most underachieving team in baseball history. Yeah we got injuries so does everyone else. I was fully planning on seeing a competitve team with Oswalt and Miller as 1-2. Then bringing in Clemens and Pettite I thought great now everyone elses 3-4 starters are going to have to face Oz and Miller.

But the whole damn team outside of Biggio, Clemens, and Lidge has underachieved. You can't pin this on any one person or injury. I was flabbergasted during the playoffs when Biggio, Bagwell, Berry, Bell, etc. couldn't get a run to save their life. But with each addition Alou, Berkman, Castilla, Hidalgo, Caminetti, I figured here's some new blood someone will drive in that run, someone will step up. Never happened.

Watching Beltran yesterday go 0-5, I just got this sickening feeling that the trend was continuing. There is something really wrong with the Astros and it starts with the original B's.

As much as I wish the Stros would go on a tear and get the wildcard, I just can't see it happening. What's worse Kent and Clemens are gone. That I can live with. I'm sure we'll resign Biggio, that's okay too. What's really frustrating is another 18mill year of watching Bagwell drag himself out there.

Beltran is going to walk boys and girls we all hoped that Randy Johnson would stay once we traded for him but we couldn't pony up the dough. Someone (probably those damn Yankees) is going to offer Beltran a ton of money. We know Boras will get all he can. Point is if we want to pay someone 18mil give it to Beltran! Convinve Bags to retire, take a front office job, be the batting coach, hell be the head coach he couldn't be any worse than Garner. If he really cares about this team he should quit hurting it and himself. Be a man and swallow your pride.

This season hurts but next year w/o Clemens, Kent, or Beltran will be even worse.

[Refman]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
1) No arm!
2) Lacks Instincts!
3) Limited range.
4) Most importantly, if this team does not make it to the playoffs, it is time to get rid of the old and bring in the new. We can't do anything about Bags, but we can do something about Kent and Big. We need to start building for the future!
Yeah, I sure am glad that we don't have any good, young talent like Everett, Berkman, Beltran and Ensberg.

Oh wait...we do.

It isn't like we took 25 guys out of the nursing home and slapped uniforms on them.

[redgoose]

Originally posted by JPM0016
I agree with your sentiment for the most part but want to single these 2 points out. I honestly can't think of a reason why the Redsox would want to take on Bagwell's 17 million dollar salary for the next three years. He's clearly not the player he was a few years ago; in fact he's probably in the top 5 of most overpayed baseball players.

If Biggio keeps up this pace, he's going to bat over 300, hit over 20 home runs and score over 100 runs. You can't find a better leadoff hitter than that. He plays Left Field; have of which is at Minute Maid Park so as it stands i wouldn't call him a defensive liability. How many Left Fielders win Gold Gloves? If they were to stick him back in Center i'd agree with you but he is servicable in Left.

Yup! I agree with everything you said. Even the Yankees wouldn't take on Bagwell's contract. Heck, they could get RJ for less.