Williams Fired - News conference 1PM

[Rocketball]

Williams fired today and replaced by Phil GARNER, news conference at 1PM announced by 610.


Excuse me for the name spelling error-----gee whiz!!!

:rolleyes:

It is a good thing I didn't kill anyone.........

[Trader_Jorge]

No surprise.

Still nothing on Astros website however.

[codell]

Well, Jimy did his best IMO and it didn't work out. Tough to see him leave when there was lil he was capable of doing.

Sometimes change is good. I hope this holds true in this case.

[Nick]

GARNER.... I guarantee you that his name is going to be mispelled a great deal. Of course, it took us all some time to get used to typing Jimy.

[codell]

Originally posted by Nick
GARNER.... I guarantee you that his name is going to be mispelled a great deal. Of course, it took us all some time to get used to typing Jimy.

Garner seems pretty easyt to spell. lol

Any Astros fan shoud know that.

Lets just call him "scrap iron".

[DanHiggsBeard]

just confirmed on 610.

[MadMax]

what do you think, codell?? what do you think of garner??

i want you...buck...behad...and rm95 to give me opinions immediately. i need them in memo form. thanks in advance.

[Master Baiter]

Originally posted by MadMax
what do you think, codell?? what do you think of garner??

i want you...buck...behad...and rm95 to give me opinions immediately. i need them in memo form. thanks in advance.
http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~rliebsch/memo.jpg

[codell]

I think Garner is a risky choice. Hes had mediocre results with mediocre teams. Bad results with bad teams. We have yet to see what he can do with a team full of talent. Hell bring alot of fire. The best we could hope hell do is motivate the players to give him better results than they gave Jimy.

In reality, I want to see if they are going to replace Spillman. I think a change in the hitting coach could make the biggest difference for this team. We have good hitters, they are just wildly inconsistent and have no chemistry as one lineup. Maybe a new approach can help these guys avoid so many costly slumps.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Master Baiter
http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~rliebsch/memo.jpg


mmmmm...yeah...i'm gonna need you to stay late to finish this up, ok? super.

[RocketManJosh]

This team just needed a change ... that's the only reason this move was made ... I think we need a new hitting coach as well to get a different opinion out to our hitters who might just a need a new approach

Good luck to Jimy and I hope you land somewhere else soon

[DanHiggsBeard]

Originally posted by codell
I think Garner is a risky choice. Hes had mediocre results with mediocre teams. Bad results with bad teams. We have yet to see what he can do with a team full of talent. Hell bring alot of fire. The best we could hope hell do is motivate the players to give him better results than they gave Jimy.

In reality, I want to see if they are going to replace Spillman. I think a change in the hitting coach could make the biggest difference for this team. We have good hitters, they are just wildly inconsistent and have no chemistry as one lineup. Maybe a new approach can help these guys avoid so many costly slumps.

I don't think it matters very much since managers are incredibly overrated. I'm more interested in a new hitting coach.

[ron413]

Originally posted by codell
In reality, I want to see if they are going to replace Spillman. I think a change in the hitting coach could make the biggest difference for this team. We have good hitters, they are just wildly inconsistent and have no chemistry as one lineup. Maybe a new approach can help these guys avoid so many costly slumps.

"The station also reported Astros hitting coach Harry Spilman and pitching coach Burt Hooton were expected to be relieved of their duties Wednesday and replaced by Gary Gaetti and Jim Hickey, respectively. "

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/hou/news/hou_news.jsp?ymd=20040714&content_id=800048&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp

07/14/2004 11:23 AM ET
Williams reportedly dismissed
Garner expected to be named Astros manager
By Jim Molony / MLB.com

HOUSTON -- Houston Astros manager Jimy Williams has been fired, a Houston television station reported Wednesday morning.
KRIV-TV, citing unnamed sources, reported Williams has been dismissed and replaced on an interim basis by Phil Garner, former manager of the Milwaukee Brewers and Detroit Tigers and a former Astros player.

The station also reported Astros hitting coach Harry Spilman and pitching coach Burt Hooton were expected to be relieved of their duties Wednesday and replaced by Gary Gaetti and Jim Hickey, respectively.

Astros owner Drayton McLane Jr. and general manager Gerry Hunsicker were not immediately available for comment Wednesday morning. Attempts to reach Williams were unsuccessful.

Williams was in his third year with the Astros after succeeding Larry Dierker as Houston manager before the 2002 season. He piloted the team to two consecutive second-place finishes but after signing free agents Roger Clemens and Andy Pettitte last offseason, the Astros were picked by many to win the National League Central Division this year only to enter the All-Star break at 44-44.

Williams was 215-197 (.522) with Houston.

Jim Molony is a reporter for MLB.com.

[Jebus]

Originally posted by ron413
"The station also reported Astros hitting coach Harry Spilman and pitching coach Burt Hooton were expected to be relieved of their duties Wednesday and replaced by Gary Gaetti and Jim Hickey, respectively. "

this is the part I'm most excited about.

[coma]

This will only be good if he plays the best players, regardless of reputation.

[rrj_gamz]

I'm sorry to see Williams go, as I thought he was a great coach, however, is his exit the answer to our woes...I doubt it...

I'm not jumping up and down on the Phil Garner bandwagon...I would have preferred Baylor...

Not sure if this will help...

[codell]

Originally posted by DanHiggsBeard
I don't think it matters very much since managers are incredibly overrated. I'm more interested in a new hitting coach.

Out of all the major sports, I think managers in baseball have the least contro over their team's performance. Still though, sometimes change is good, just for the sake of change.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by codell
Out of all the major sports, I think managers in baseball have the least contro over their team's performance. Still though, sometimes change is good, just for the sake of change.

I tend to think it is the head football coach simply because so much of the general decision making and game planning is left to the offensive and defensive coordinators. Actually, once a game is going, the soccer coach doesn't have a lot to do since there are limited substitutions and the players (at least on the national level) know what set plays to run,

I actually think the baseball manager has more of an impact (at least during the actual playing of the game) simply because baseball is not a "flow" game. There are lots of starts and stops. Steal, hit and run, pitchouts, pinch hitters, relievers, etc. A manager has a lot of decisions to make during the actual game most of the time.

In football, it tends to be, "Why did Chris Plamer call that draw play?" as opposed to "Why did Dom Capers do it".

[wrath_of_khan]

OK, so now can we get another arm for the bullpen?

Every single one of our relievers makes me nervous except Lidge ...

[killtaker]

Originally posted by Jebus
this is the part I'm most excited about.

Excited about Gary Gaetti? But he was a career .255 hitter in 20 seasons. He struck out almost three times more than he walked and his OBP was .308. Maybe he's a good motivator/encourager?

[moligity]

July 14, 2004, 11:18AM
Astros to fire Williams; Garner to be named manager
By JOSE DE JESUS ORTIZ

Astros manager Jimy Williams and his coaching staff will learn their fates at 1 p.m. today with former Milwaukee Brewers and Detroit Tigers manager Phil Garner set to become the franchise's 14th manager.

The Astros have scheduled a news conference at 1 p.m. today to make it official.

"I just got fired," hitting coach Harry Spilman said this morning.

Citing commissioner Bud Selig's orders to not take attention away from the 75th All-Star Game, which was held Tuesday night at Minute Maid Park, McLane would not say Tuesday night whether Williams will be fired.

After the American League beat the National League 9-4 before a sellout crowd of 41,886, Williams remained holed up in the home clubhouse's coaches room until he was assured all the media had cleared out. Through a team spokesman, he declined comment.

"Remember what the commissioner has said," said McLane, who didn't deny he would fire Williams. "There will be no comment to take away focus from the All-Star Game. The entire focus for us has been the All-Star Game. We'll wait until after the All-Star Game to discuss it."

Class AA Round Rock manager Jackie Moore was another potential candidate to replace Williams on an interim basis.

Garner, a former Astros infielder, also cited Selig's edict on Tuesday. Asked specifically if the club had contacted him, the 55-year-old Garner was a bit vague while admitting to having had conversations with team officials.

"Well, I talk to the Astros off and on on all kinds of things," he said. "I wouldn't say it's any different than anything else."

Williams, who served as a coach for the NL All-Stars, was greeted by a chorus of boos when he was introduced to his home crowd. San Francisco Giants slugger Barry Bonds was the only other player or coach booed in the Midsummer Classic on Tuesday night, but Williams received the loudest jeers.

As reported by the Chronicle last week, McLane reiterated he will decide Williams' fate in a meeting today.

"After we get in the office, we'll all talk," McLane said. "But I have two (meetings) before that."

After McLane signed premier pitchers Andy Pettitte and Roger Clemens this winter, the Astros entered the season with more excitement than anybody involved with the club could remember. The starting lineup also returned intact, but the Astros are fifth in the National League Central, 10 1/2 games behind the division-leading St. Louis Cardinals.


215-197 with club
The Astros headed into the All-Star break with a 44-44 record, even after acquiring All-Star center fielder Carlos Beltran on June 24. In all, the Astros had four All-Stars on the NL squad.


Williams acknowledged that worrying about his future didn't make much sense anymore.

"I guess that's for you folks to write about," he said before Tuesday's game. "I can't worry about that. The only thing we can get ready for now is that practice that we've got on Thursday to get ready for Friday's game."

The Astros hired Williams on Nov. 1, 2001. He replaced former Astros pitcher and broadcaster Larry Dierker, who managed the Astros to four NL Central titles in five years before he resigned.

Under Williams' guidance, the Astros are 215-197 with no postseason appearances. Garner, known as Scrap Iron during his playing career from 1973 to 1988, has a 708-802 record as a manager.

Garner had his best season as a manager in his 1992 rookie campaign with the Brewers, who finished second in the American League East that year with a 92-70 record. The Brewers fired him after 112 games in 1999.

The Tigers hired Garner in 2000 and fired him after they lost the first six games of the 2002 season.

"I have just not wanted to be part of any speculation or anything else," Garner said. "I have a great deal of respect for Jimy. I know when times get tough, a lot of things get asked about, get questioned. I think it's easier for managers to just focus on what has to be done instead of answering all of these questions."


Avoided the game
The Pittsburgh Pirates traded Garner to the Astros on Aug. 31, 1981. He played in Houston until he was traded to the Los Angeles Dodgers on June 19, 1987, but he kept his family in the Houston area. He coached for the Astros from 1989-91.


Asked if the contact with the Astros addressed a managerial opportunity, Garner was adamant he didn't want to take attention away from the All-Star Game. For that reason, he decided against attending even though he had tickets.

[Baqui99]

Good hire. Anything to get that chump Jimy out of Houston.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by Baqui99
Good hire. Anything to get that chump Jimy out of Houston.

Yeah, great hire! Let's bring in a guy with one winning season! Woohoo, I'm pumped.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Yeah, great hire! Let's bring in a guy with one winning season! Woohoo, I'm pumped.

I just can't imagine that Baylor was ever an option for this season since the Astros will be (hopefully) competing with the Mets for the wild card. Can you imagine the outcry from New York if the Astros beat the Mets out by a couple of games had the Mets allowed Baylor to walk?

It will be interesting to hear the terms of the contract, but I bet it is more than the rest of this year.

I am sure they wanted someone with experience and Garner was a convenient solution. Is he the best for the long haul? Probably not. Is he the best for the rest of this season, among those that were truly available? Probably so.

[codell]

Originally posted by bobrek
I tend to think it is the head football coach simply because so much of the general decision making and game planning is left to the offensive and defensive coordinators. Actually, once a game is going, the soccer coach doesn't have a lot to do since there are limited substitutions and the players (at least on the national level) know what set plays to run,

I actually think the baseball manager has more of an impact (at least during the actual playing of the game) simply because baseball is not a "flow" game. There are lots of starts and stops. Steal, hit and run, pitchouts, pinch hitters, relievers, etc. A manager has a lot of decisions to make during the actual game most of the time.

In football, it tends to be, "Why did Chris Plamer call that draw play?" as opposed to "Why did Dom Capers do it".

But I think with baseball, if you have a talented team that is individually perorming up to their capabilities, then the team kind of manages itself. Football to me...as far as offense and defense, require so much structure which is dictated by the head coach (i.e. this player has to be in this exact position and this exact time........).

Ive always thought this would be an interesting HANGOUT topic.

Out of the 4 major sports, which coach/manager has the least impact on his team's performance???

[rockets-#1]

I don't like the hire of Garner.....

but I LOVE THE FIRING OF JIMY! GOOD RIDDANCE!!!

What did that guy ever accomplish with this team? NOTHING!

At least Dierker could get the Astros to the playoffs. True, baseball managers have the least control of how their team does, but we saw what this team could do before Jimy, saw no results with him, and saw (somewhat) what they could do after (Hidalgo). I expect the Astros to finally turn it on, at least just for the sake of change.

[killtaker]

Man, I was hoping for Jesse Barfield as hitting coach. Anyone have anything to say about Jim Hickey?

You think Scrap Iron will demand respect from our older guys? Does he need to? He's more a high-energy guy and I don't doubt he'll try to light that fire in the clubhouse, but I don't know how the players will really respond.

I think the biggest change will be the 'feel' in clubhouse. There's not that big age gap between Garner and some of the players like there was between Jimy and everyone else. Usually, if the coach is younger, he tends to be a players coach.. here's to hoping that's a good thing.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by killtaker


You think Scrap Iron will demand respect from our older guys? Does he need to? He's more a high-energy guy and I don't doubt he'll try to light that fire in the clubhouse, but I don't know how the players will really respond.
.

Terry Collins

[The Real Shady]

Jimy..... ah Bye-Bye.

[Master Baiter]

Originally posted by MadMax
Terry Collins
I think Terry Tate would be a better motivator.

http://www.superbowl-ads.com/articles_2003/2003.320x240/template43.jpg
I told you not to pop up Bagwell!! Wooooooo!!!!!!!

[VesceySux]

You ARE the weakest link (for now...). GOODBYE.

[moligity]

Originally posted by Master Baiter
I think Terry Tate would be a better motivator.

http://rbk.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pG01-1133505reg.jpg

Yeah! That's great. We need a Clubhouse Linebacker.

"I told you not to ground into a double play with the bases loaded! Whoooo!"

[codell]

BTW, isn't this the first time in 20 or 30 years that the Stros have fired a manager in mid season??

[Nick]

honestly... the biggest impact a manager can have is in his handling of the pitching staff.

Jimy, in 2002 and 2003, basically made the most of nothing, with a staff that had players like an aging Shane Reynolds, Brian Moehler, a hurt Roy Oswalt, a hurt Wade Miller, a headcase Tim Redding, Pete Munro, Kirk Sarloos, Ron Villone, Jeriome Robertson, etc.

I felt he did a remarkable job with this team last year, and would have gotten some manager of the year consideration, had this team not choked away the division lead in the final weeks.

We may remember him most for yanking pitchers early, but with that bullpen... he always made a high percentage move.

This year, he managed less with that strategy (granted, not having Wagner had much to do with that), and it burned him a few times as well... with some Oswalt games lost in the 8th inning, and the fact that this team has gone winless in extra innings.

Ironically, this was the one year where he didn't really have to "manage" the pitching staff (as he'd done the previous 2 years), and he summarily gets fired... but a change was needed.

Unfortunatley, they couldn't just can Spillman much earlier in the season... that would have at least been a start (and if it didn't pan out, THEN fire Jimy).

Things I WILL attribute to Jimy as a success of his managing:
1.) The development of Brad Lidge as a lights out pitcher. Jimy was never afraid to throw him in tight situations in 2003, and its paid off big time this year.

2.) Improved defense... before he came, this club lacked severe fundamentals in the field, and the development of Adam Everett helped shore up a huge problem. Also, any team that could have won consistently with Lance Berkman and Craig Biggio playing CF must have had some good teaching.

3.)Strategy - while it would sometimes never pay-off, it was always interesting to see times when he'd employ the 5-man infield, the 4-man outfield, the righty-lefty shifts, situational leftys, situational rightys... the stros couldn't come close to sniffing out these plays with Dierker as manager. Needless to say (again, even though it didn't always result in success), I learnt a lot about how the different strategies that can be employed in this game under Jimy.

I wish him luck... too bad the players didn't perform this year, but once again... change is needed.

[Smokey]

ESPN News will carry the press conference for out of towners.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by Nick


3.)Strategy - while it would sometimes never pay-off, it was always interesting to see times when he'd employ the 5-man infield, the 4-man outfield, the righty-lefty shifts, situational leftys, situational rightys... the stros couldn't come close to sniffing out these plays with Dierker as manager. Needless to say (again, even though it didn't always result in success), I learnt a lot about how the different strategies that can be employed in this game under Jimy.


Dierker routinely used the 4 man outfield (moving Biggio - at the time, playing 2nd - to left center field) when McGwire was playing. As a matter of fact, Biggio caught one his flies on the warning track and the box score notation was F-4.

[Smokey]

I'm excited about Garner although I don't know anything about him. On an interim basis, why would we not give this guy a shot? Rudy was hired as an interim coach and turned out the be the greatest coach in franchise history.

[Blatz]

Originally posted by Smokey
ESPN News will carry the press conference for out of towners.

and if you can't watch it here is an audio link

http://www.ktrh.com/main.html

[RocketManJosh]

Originally posted by Smokey
ESPN News will carry the press conference for out of towners.

also can watch online

www.chron.com

[nWo34Life]

Here's news from the AP:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BBN_ASTROS_WILLIAMS_FIRED?SITE=TXHOU&SECTION=SPORTS&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

Astros Fire Williams, Hire Garner

HOUSTON (AP) -- The Houston Astros fired manager Jimy Williams and replaced him with Phil Garner on Wednesday, a last-ditch effort to rescue a season that started with World Series expectations.

Garner, a former player with the Astros, told The Associated Press about the move in a telephone interview. The Astros scheduled an afternoon news conference to make the announcement.

"I'm excited. I'm a Houston boy and I'm looking forward to it," said Garner, a former manager with Detroit and Milwaukee. "We got some boys on the team that I think can do something really special. This is an opportunity that I've been waiting for."

Williams' job security had been the subject of speculation for about a month, right about the time Houston's surprising slide down the NL Central standings began.

Houston was 44-44 heading into the All-Star break, a remarkable disappointment for a team that was tops in the NL Central for the first month and a half of the season.

The season began with expectations of the club's first World Series appearance in its 42-year history after the offseason acquisition of former New York Yankees teammates Andy Pettitte and Roger Clemens.

The Astros went into the All-Star break losers of six of their final eight games, finishing the first half of the season in fifth place in the NL Central. Houston is 10 1/2 games behind division leader St. Louis - the first time they've faced a double-digit deficit in the standings at the break in 11 seasons.

During pregame introductions at the All-Star game Tuesday night, a sellout crowd at Minute Maid Park voiced its frustration by booing Williams. Williams doffed his cap, but was clearly embarrassed.

Williams, 60, has guided the Astros to two second-place finishes, losing the division race last season in the final week. The Astros made the postseason four of five seasons before his arrival from Boston in November 2001, but have failed to clinch a playoff berth since.

The Astros have been surprisingly punchless on offense, ranking only 19th in the majors in scoring. Their highly touted pitching staff has struggled as both Pettitte and Wade Miller have spent time on the disabled list. And Carlos Beltran hasn't been the quick fix they expected - the All-Star center fielder is hitting .263.

The fans' booing of Williams likely didn't escape the attention of McLane or Hunsicker either.


Hunsicker has repeatedly emphasized that the club has loaded up solely for an autumn finish - Beltran is a free agent, Clemens was coaxed out of retirement, Jeff Kent and Craig Biggio are in the final years of their contracts and Jeff Bagwell is nearing the end of his career.

Garner, a former Astros infielder from 1981-87, was hired as Milwaukee's manager in 1992, leading the Brewers to a 92-70 record and a second-place finish in the AL East. That proved to be his best season as a manager, and Garner was ultimately fired by Milwaukee after 112 games in 1999.

The Tigers hired Garner in 2000, going 145-179 over the next two seasons before firing him after they lost the first six games of the 2002 season.

Garner, 55, and his family have kept a home in the Houston area since his playing days with the Astros.

In recent days, many of the Astros were bracing for the managerial shake-up. No one was taken aback when the sellout crowd at the All-Star game booed Williams on Tuesday night.

"That doesn't surprise me. The manager always gets the blame," Beltran said after the game. "I think Jimy is doing the best he can. There's nothing else he can do."

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by Smokey
I'm excited about Garner although I don't know anything about him. On an interim basis, why would we not give this guy a shot? Rudy was hired as an interim coach and turned out the be the greatest coach in franchise history.

He's coached all or part of 11 seasons. ONE winning season, way back in 1992. Great hire.

[codell]

Hunsicker just made it clear that Garner is the interim manager and that they will conduct a full search at season's end for a permanent replacement consistent with directives set forth by the commissioner's office (i.e. we will bring minorities in for interviews).

[Blatz]

It's only for the rest of the season.

[Smokey]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
He's coached all or part of 11 seasons. ONE winning season, way back in 1992. Great hire.

He coached the Brewers and Tigers. Come on. Can you name one star on those teams?

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by Smokey
He coached the Brewers and Tigers. Come on. Can you name one star on those teams?

Who cares? Did they show any sort of improvement over time? No, they sucked his whole tenure, save that one year.

If you want to bitch about Jimy never winning anything, you have to be consistent and bitch here too.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Rocketman95


If you want to bitch about Jimy never winning anything, you have to be consistent and bitch here too.

"at least jimy won playoff series. garner can't even get to one."

sound familiar? :D

[codell]

Originally posted by Rocketman95

If you want to bitch about Jimy never winning anything, you have to be consistent and bitch here too.

This is all about change, not necessarily hiriring a more qualified manager.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by codell
This is all about change, not necessarily hiriring a more qualified manager.

i don't think RM95's post was directed at you...but at jimy-hatahs! :)

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by codell
This is all about change, not necessarily hiriring a more qualified manager.

I understand that completely and agree that a change had to be made. But just because you have to make a change doesn't mean you have to go out and get a manager who hasn't done squat in his career.

[codell]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
I understand that completely and agree that a change had to be made. But just because you have to make a change doesn't mean you have to go out and get a manager who hasn't done squat in his career.

But who was readilly available that HAS done squat??

:)

[codell]

Originally posted by MadMax
i don't think RM95's post was directed at you...but at jimy-hatahs! :)

i took it personal :cool:

[BobFinn*]

Originally posted by Smokey
He coached the Brewers and Tigers. Come on. Can you name one star on those teams?

Brewers-Robin Yount, Paul Molitor

Tigers- Lou Whitaker, Alan Trammell

[Trader_Jorge]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
I understand that completely and agree that a change had to be made. But just because you have to make a change doesn't mean you have to go out and get a manager who hasn't done squat in his career.

You're right. We should have just gone ahead and plucked Torre from the Yankees. Gosh, Hunsicker is such a fool for making this decision...
:rolleyes:

[DaDakota]

RM95,

I agree, seems a bit of a band aid, BUT, at least they are trying somthing.

This team is .500...that is a disgrace with all the talent it has.

Jimy clearly did what he thought was best, just did not work out here.

Glad he is gone, should have happened 2 weeks ago....why let the floundering happen as long as it has????

Low expectations = low results.

DD

[codell]

wow.

Garner just said he doesn't want a long term committment. That he has other business interests that keeps him busy.

This reminds of the scene from Major League:

GM: Hey Lou. How would you like to manage the Indians this year??

LOU: Oh I don't know. Lemme think about it. Ill call you back. I have a guy on the other line interested in a set of white walls.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by BobFinn*


Tigers- Lou Whitaker, Alan Trammell

you forgot ty cobb

[MadMax]

Originally posted by DaDakota


Low expectations = low results.


how in the world does this phrase apply to the 2004 Houston Astros??

[Groogrux]

I should've phrased that different, codell. It just seems that the last replacement was similar to this one, and we all know how that worked out. I'd have been for hiring Gaetti, Moore, Cruz, or some other rookie MLB manager.

T_J, it's a waste of time for you to respond to me. I've asked Clutch to ban me if we get into it again...I suggest you do the same. Thanks.

[BobFinn*]

Originally posted by MadMax
you forgot ty cobb

And Al Kaline...doh!:o :p

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by BobFinn*
And Al Kaline...doh!:o :p

And Roy Schieder! :D

[Smokey]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Who cares? Did they show any sort of improvement over time? No, they sucked his whole tenure, save that one year.

If you want to bitch about Jimy never winning anything, you have to be consistent and bitch here too.

Are you comparing the 2004 Astros to the also rans Garner coached? I'll bitch if Garner drives the Astros into the ground even worse than Jimy already has done.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by Smokey
Are you comparing the 2004 Astros to the also rans Garner coached? I'll bitch if Garner drives the Astros into the ground even worse than Jimy already has done.

Of course I'm not, but that doesn't change the fact that Garner has done nothing in his career to merit a third chance.

[codell]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Of course I'm not, but that doesn't change the fact that Garner has done nothing in his career to merit a third chance.

Again .......name someone who was available that has a proven track record with talented teams.

[BobFinn*]

RM, you don't want a rookie manager at the helm when you're trying to make a run at a playoff spot. I could possibly see it for a full season but not for a half of one.

I would liked to have seen Baylor get it, but Garner will do. Not much to choose from this time of year.

[Trader_Jorge]

Guys, forget about the people trying to bring us down in this thread. They are arguing simply for the sake of arguing.

A change needed to be made. Garner is a fiery competitor with a history with the Astros. The Astros management knows him and trusts him. He is a great pick to energize this team. In the middle of the season, it is very hard to pick up your ideal manager. The Astros are doing the right thing by taking on the best possible interim manager, and conducting a full search after the season is finished. Great move today by the Astros.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by codell
Again .......name someone who was available that has a proven track record with talented teams.

I said I preferred a rookie coach.

Bob*, great point. I concede and will stop bitching until we see the results. I'll be in front of the tv every game hoping he proves me wrong!

Hell, I've been doing so much defending of this team, manager, and management for the last two years that I feel I've earned the right to bitch a little. :D

[codell]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
I said I preferred a rookie coach.

Bob*, great point. I concede and will stop bitching until we see the results. I'll be in front of the tv every game hoping he proves me wrong!

Hell, I've been doing so much defending of this team, manager, and management for the last two years that I feel I've earned the right to bitch a little. :D

Didn't see your first response. Sorry.

With this team of vets......I just don't see a rookie manager getting as much out of them. Much less, their respect.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by codell
With this team of vets......I just don't see a rookie manager getting as much out of them. Much less, their respect.

You and Bob* are exactly right. That's a point I never considered and I have no problem admitting that.

All my bitching aside, I say, "GO PHIL!!". You're an Astro now and my current favorite manager!

[Nashvegas]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
Guys, forget about the people trying to bring us down in this thread. They are arguing simply for the sake of arguing.

A change needed to be made. Garner is a fiery competitor with a history with the Astros. The Astros management knows him and trusts him. He is a great pick to energize this team. In the middle of the season, it is very hard to pick up your ideal manager. The Astros are doing the right thing by taking on the best possible interim manager, and conducting a full search after the season is finished. Great move today by the Astros.

exactly....this is all we needed was a kick in the pants. hopefully Garner will light a fire under the team, and sit who he needs to sit.

[codell]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
You and Bob* are exactly right.

Im disappointed. You usually don't give up that easy.

Pansy.





:p

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by codell
Im disappointed. You usually don't give up that easy.

Pansy.





:p

It's the new, boring RM95!!! :D

[Mr. Clutch]

Probably like most other people, I'm not ecstatic about getting Garner, but I am relieved that Jimy is gone. His decisions just never made sense to me.

[Fegwu]

Originally posted by bobrek
I tend to think it is the head football coach simply because so much of the general decision making and game planning is left to the offensive and defensive coordinators. Actually, once a game is going, the soccer coach doesn't have a lot to do since there are limited substitutions and the players (at least on the national level) know what set plays to run,

I actually think the baseball manager has more of an impact (at least during the actual playing of the game) simply because baseball is not a "flow" game. There are lots of starts and stops. Steal, hit and run, pitchouts, pinch hitters, relievers, etc. A manager has a lot of decisions to make during the actual game most of the time.

In football, it tends to be, "Why did Chris Plamer call that draw play?" as opposed to "Why did Dom Capers do it".


You are worng on the soccer take.

The coaching and coaches in soccer are very important part of the game. The the lame eyes, it will appear as nothing is going go but great soccer/football teams constantly shift and maneuver their team formation, tactics and marking as the game dictates.

Only someone who is a novice of the game of soccer would think that soccer coaches do not do much during the game. I have coached at least one soccer team and have played in a few coached ones and I can testify to you that a good coach on the sideline is paramount, important and vital to the success of a team.

[codell]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
It's the new, boring RM95!!! :D

Boring is good. Or else, you might get stuck working on the project alone with Mr. Kruger.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by codell
Boring is good. Or else, you might get stuck working on the project alone with Mr. Kruger.

I'm not worried about it (as I eat my chocolate cake).

[codell]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
I'm not worried about it (as I eat my chocolate cake).

Check it out. *Codell begins to spin around in his chair*

Three times around, no feet.!!

[bobrek]

Originally posted by Fegwu
You are worng on the soccer take.

The coaching and coaches in soccer are very important part of the game. The the lame eyes, it will appear as nothing is going go but great soccer/football teams constantly shift and maneuver their team formation, tactics and marking as the game dictates.

Only someone who is a novice of the game of soccer would think that soccer coaches do not do much during the game. I have coached at least one soccer team and have played in a few coached ones and I can testify to you that a good coach on the sideline is paramount, important and vital to the success of a team.

But during the actual playing of the game on the national level (which is the level my post referred to) aren't the players well versed enough to recognize what they need to do without input from the coach? Haven't they prepared before hand that if Team X attacks this way then we need to defend like this? Assume a football game has 80 plays per team per game. A coach (generally one of the coordinators) is involved with every single play with respect to making a call. In soccer the coaches aren't that "hands on".

My contention was at that level, during the actual playing of the game, the coach has less input than that of a baseball manager, football coach or basketball coach, especially due to the fluidity of the game. and the lack of substitutions.

Of course a good coach is important to the success of any team.

[Harrisment]

Good move. Not because I dislike Jimy, but something had to be done. There's a chance we could continue on the downward spiral, but they had to try something to salvage this season.

[leroy420]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Of course I'm not, but that doesn't change the fact that Garner has done nothing in his career to merit a third chance.

92 wins with a mediocre at best Milwaukee team that had nothing in the way of a star pitcher and had an aging Robin Yount and Paul Molitor. I would say that he has done something.

By the way, what exactly had Larry Dierker done to merit a first chance? Nothing, but he turned out ok. The situation has as much to do with talent in dictating sucess. Garner had nothing in his years with the Brewers and Tigers.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by leroy420
92 wins with a mediocre at best Milwaukee team that had nothing in the way of a star pitcher and had an aging Robin Yount and Paul Molitor. I would say that he has done something.
.

92 wins??? over how many seasons???

[DaDakota]

Originally posted by MadMax
how in the world does this phrase apply to the 2004 Houston Astros??

Not sure, just sounded cool....

;)

DD

[leroy420]

Originally posted by MadMax
92 wins??? over how many seasons???

1992 Miluwaukee 92-70...lost the AL East title on the last day of the season to Toronto, the eventual World Series Champions.

[Dennis2112]

Originally posted by codell
This reminds of the scene from Major League:

GM: Hey Lou. How would you like to manage the Indians this year??

LOU: Oh I don't know. Lemme think about it. Ill call you back. I have a guy on the other line interested in a set of white walls.



I hope the result is the same for the Astros as it was for the Indians. :D

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by leroy420
92 wins with a mediocre at best Milwaukee team that had nothing in the way of a star pitcher and had an aging Robin Yount and Paul Molitor. I would say that he has done something.

One out of 11 doesn't impress me.

By the way, what exactly had Larry Dierker done to merit a first chance? Nothing, but he turned out ok.

Well, he hadn't had 10 out of 11 losing seasons, that's one thing right there. Like I said before, I'd have preferred a rookie manager until someone correctly pointed out the flaws in a mid-season replacement like that

The situation has as much to do with talent in dictating sucess. Garner had nothing in his years with the Brewers and Tigers.

Did the teams he coached show any kind of improvement over his years?

[Baqui99]

Jimy's team folded down the stretch last year, and had already hung it up at the break this year. Mediocrity should not be tolerated, as the front office has assembled a hell of a f'n team on the field. Jimy could not get this team to hit or pitch in the clutch, and their play was rapidly deteriorating on the field.

Now it's up to Garner to turn things around. This team needs a change of pace.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Baqui99
Jimy could not get this team to hit or pitch in the clutch,

please tell me how ANY coach makes this happen. i'm hoping to sell it to coaches and managers around the country who i'm sure are eagerly awaiting this genie in a bottle.

[ron413]

I thought this poll was kind of funny...

Vote: Jimy Williams Fired
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SportsNation

1) Did the Astros make the right move in firing Jimy Williams?

65.4% Yes, because something had to be done
20.9% No
13.7% Yes, because it's his fault

2) Many analysts and fans predicted big things for the Astros this year. Were these expectations too high?

66.4% No
33.6% Yes

3) What has been the primary cause of the Astros' recent slide to fifth place in the NL East?

53.1% Weak offense
20.4% Injuries
13.5% Jimy Williams
13.0% Starting pitching

4) When should the Astros start the fire sale?

48.5% Give Garner some time to turn things around first
36.0% Contenders don't hold fire sales
15.5% Now

5) When will the Astros reach their first World Series?

43.2% It's gonna be awhile
24.0% Within 5 years
13.9% Within 10 years
13.5% This year!
5.3% Next year

Total Votes: 7,356

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/polling?incomming=1&event_id=807&question5118=20967&question5119=20969&question5120=20974&question5121=20976&question5122=20977

[Baqui99]

Originally posted by MadMax
please tell me how ANY coach makes this happen. i'm hoping to sell it to coaches and managers around the country who i'm sure are eagerly awaiting this genie in a bottle.

Max, I'm going to let you in on a secret...

http://sportsmed.starwave.com/i/magazine/new/emanski_tom.jpg

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Baqui99
Max, I'm going to let you in on a secret...

http://sportsmed.starwave.com/i/magazine/new/emanski_tom.jpg

awesome!

[Smokey]

http://espn.go.com/poll/images/poll25804_0.gif

[leroy420]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Did the teams he coached show any kind of improvement over his years?

That is hard when your best players are constantly sold off to the highest bidder. I have not done a roster analysis for all 11 of his season, but I would be willing to bet that his teams changed significantly in consecutive years. It makes life a bit more difficult when you can't get any momentum going with the same group from year to year.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by leroy420
That is hard when your best players are constantly sold off to the highest bidder. I have not done a roster analysis for all 11 of his season, but I would be willing to bet that his teams changed significantly in consecutive years. It makes life a bit more difficult when you can't get any momentum going with the same group from year to year.

I've heard criticisms of the way he handled his pitchers. I dunno, maybe you're right...I certainly hope so.

[JBIIRockets]

I think Garner might be a good short term solution.

He lead Milwaukee to a 92-70 record in his first year, but that is because that team had veterans in Molitor, Yount, Seitzer, a good Jamie Navarro and Cal Eldred, and Chris Bosio. And this Astro team is full of vets.

But he has proven not to be a good rebuilding coach. The young players never develop under him. So if the Astros opt to rebuild in the near future, then Garner probably isnt the best guy for the job.

[codell]

Originally posted by JBIIRockets
So if the Astros opt to rebuild in the near future, then Garner probably isnt the best guy for the job.

Should be a moot point. I got the impression, from both Gerry, Drayton and Garner that this is for the rest of the season only. Garner didn't even sound like he was interested staying beyond this season under any conditions.

[BobFinn*]

Just imagine

Phil leads the Astros from 11 games back on July 14th to win the division, rolls through the playoffs and then sweep the Yankees in the World Series.

Then he retires.


hmmmm.....

[Groogrux]

It doesn't take long for this optimist to be convinced. Bring on the second half!!!!

:D

[codell]

After 1993 (post Molitor/Young), here are Milwaukee and Detroit's main players:

1994

C *Dave Nilsson
1B John Jaha
2B Jody Reed
3B Kevin Seitzer
SS #Jose Valentin
OF #Turner Ward
OF Greg Vaughn
OF Matt Mieske (uh yeah ...THAT Matt Mieske :))
DH Brian Harper

SP Cal Eldred
SP Ricky Bones
SP Bill Wegman
SP *Teddy Higuera
CL Mike Fetters

1995

C Joe Oliver
1B John Jaha
2B *Fernando Vina
3B Jeff Cirillo
SS #Jose Valentin
OF *David Hulse
OF *Darryl Hamilton
OF Matt Mieske
DH Greg Vaughn

SP Ricky Bones
SP Steve Sparks
SP *Brian Givens
SP *Scott Karl
SP Bob Scanlan (uh yeah ....THAT Bob Scanlan)

CL Mike Fetters

1996

C Mike Matheny
1B John Jaha
2B *Fernando Vina
3B Jeff Cirillo
SS #Jose Valentin
LF Greg Vaughn
CF #Pat Listach
RF Matt Mieske
DH Kevin Seitzer

P Ben McDonald
SP *Scott Karl
SP Ricky Bones
SP Jeff D'Amico
SP Cal Eldred
SP Steve Sparks

CL Mike Fetters

1997

C Mike Matheny
1B *Dave Nilsson
2B *Fernando Vina
3B Jeff Cirillo
SS #Jose Valentin
LF Gerald Williams
CF Darrin Jackson
RF *Jeromy Burnitz
DH Julio Franco

SP Cal Eldred
SP *Scott Karl
SP Jeff D'Amico
SP Jose Mercedes
SP Ben McDonald

CL Doug Jones

1998

C Mike Matheny
1B Mark Loretta
2B *Fernando Vina
3B Jeff Cirillo
SS #Jose Valentin
LF *Geoff Jenkins
CF Marquis Grissom
RF *Jeromy Burnitz
DH John Jaha

P *Scott Karl
SP Steve Woodard
SP Jeff Juden
SP Cal Eldred
SP *Brad Woodall
SP *Bill Pulsipher

CL Bob Wickman

1999

C *Dave Nilsson
1B Mark Loretta
2B Ron Belliard
3B Jeff Cirillo
SS #Jose Valentin
LF *Geoff Jenkins
CF Marquis Grissom
RF *Jeromy Burnitz
DH *Rich Becke

SP *Scott Karl
SP Steve Woodard
SP Hideo Nomo
SP *Bill Pulsipher
SP *Jim Abbott
SP Cal Eldred
SP Kyle Peterson

CL Bob Wickman

2000

C Brad Ausmus
1B #Tony Clark
2B Damion Easley
3B Dean Palmer
SS Deivi Cruz
LF *Bobby Higginson
CF Juan Encarnacion
RF Juan Gonzalez
DH *Luis Polonia

P Hideo Nomo
SP Jeff Weaver
SP Brian Moehler
SP Dave Mlicki
SP Steve Sparks

CL Todd Jones

2001

C Brandon Inge
1B #Tony Clark
2B Damion Easley
3B #Jose Macias
SS Deivi Cruz
LF *Bobby Higginson
CF #Roger Cedeno
RF Juan Encarnacion
DH Dean Palmer

P Steve Sparks
SP Jeff Weaver
SP Chris Holt
SP Jose Lima
SP Dave Mlicki
SP Nate Cornejo

CL Matt Anderson

[codell]

So lets see, out of all those guys:

Vaughn
Eldred
Vina
Cirillo
Valentin
Fetters
Matheny
D'Amico
Burnitz
Jenkins
Grissom
Jaha
Ausmus
Clark
Gonzalez
Nomo
Jones
Palmer

Thats the best he had to work with. Half of those guys are journeymen/mediocre ML players.

Not 1 true stud/superstar out of the bunch, except Gonzalez maybe.

[Surfguy]

Originally posted by Master Baiter
http://cogsci.ucsd.edu/~rliebsch/memo.jpg

Audio for the pic. (http://funwavs.com/wavfile.php?quote=2281&sound=195)

LOL

More "Office Space" sound files. (http://funwavs.com/movie/sounds/office-space/?page=1)

[codell]

Here is a pretty interesting article on MLB.com:

Attitude adjustment makes sense
Dismissal of Williams right move in frustrating year

HOUSTON -- Jimy Williams was hired to manage the Houston Astros not only because he was an experienced manager respected by veteran players, but because he knew how to keep his own counsel. In the end, his tight-lippedness in the face of adversity only furthered the belief that he lacked the essentials to turn around a talented but struggling Houston team.

Williams was dismissed as manager of the Astros with a year to go on his contract on Wednesday

"We tried to make some positive changes to the players' side of the equation, and as we watched this team continue to flounder last week on the West Coast, it became more and more apparent to us that it was time for a change," Houston general manager Gerry Hunsicker said. "The clincher was watching us in Los Angeles last weekend, where we just seemed to take on that defeated, desperate kind of attitude. And to me, that's the biggest thing we're looking to change -- the attitude."

It is axiomatic that you cannot motivate if you cannot communicate. Williams' shortcomings in that regard have never been more glaring than they were this season. He was given a flawed team -- one that is, still, one of the most talented in franchise history -- but Williams compounded the problem with questionable personnel moves that backfired more often than not.

Even the addition of Carlos Beltran didn't slow the team's slide. Since Beltran's arrival on June 24, the Astros have lost five games to St. Louis in the National League Central race and are in danger of falling off the radar screen altogether.

Speculation about the shaky ground Williams stood on had been swirling for weeks. The team's disappointing record in the last two years, Williams' puzzling in-game decisions and the Astros' failure to reach the postseason after his predecessor had piloted the club to four division titles in five years were all factors in management's decision to finally pull the trigger.

Not to mention the bottom line: Baseball is still an entertainment business, and Williams had long ceased to entertain the Astros' ticket-buying public.

Initially, Astros fans tolerated Williams' reticence as a sharp contrast to Larry Dierker, the man he succeeded. Some even considered Williams stoic, but ultimately he only frustrated the fans, who wanted an explanation for their team's woes and his peculiar game decisions. When Williams was loudly booed during All-Star introductions on Tuesday, Astros owner Drayton McLane said it "broke my heart ... no one deserves that."

But McLane is practical, and he knows the fans come first. Tuesday's outburst only reinforced management's belief that they had made the right decision to go with Phil Garner.

"I've been in business for over 40 years, and one of the key ingredients is leadership," McLane said. "We felt that change would be best."

There was only the matter of letting the Midsummer Classic get out of town before the Houston Astros would get back to business.

"We had a sense of urgency with this baseball team," Hunsicker said. "Time is running out. We need to jump-start this club and we need it starting now."

The wonder is how Williams lasted this long. A man who does not believe in hypotheticals, one who refused to consider discussing anything beyond today's game, is an odd choice for manager, a position where thinking ahead is a prerequisite. If you can't consider the future, it is hard to plan for it, and like the saying goes, should you fail to plan you should plan to fail.

And fail Williams did. Again. Do not forget that this was the guy whose first three Toronto teams finished 10, 30 and 12 games, respectively, over .500. When his fourth Blue Jay club started 12-24, Williams was axed. Cito Gaston then piloted that same team to the American League East Division title.

In his five years in Boston, Williams' teams played .540 ball, winning 92 games in 1998 and 94 in 1999, when he was named American League Manager of the Year. But they never finished higher than second for four consecutive years. In 2002, he took control of a Houston team that had won division titles four of the five previous seasons -- including 2001 -- but fared no better than a couple of back-to-back second-place finishes.

The Astros are a slow, aging team, and they have had some injuries. But even so, there's no way a team with this much talent should be .500. To a man, the Astros agree they have underachieved.

Since Williams is a man of few words, we shouldn't have been surprised when he wasn't the type of fiery leader his critics felt this team needed. He was hard to figure, both on and off the field.

He defended his players zealously, but he wasn't averse to picking up the phone and taking an official scorer to task. He tolerated the media the way a man might submit to dental surgery -- reluctantly and only because someone convinced him it was necessary.

Baseball is art as much as sport, and many fans want to understand a manager's decision-making process. The media, even if they were merely seeking to relay that process to the fans, were too often stonewalled.

Why did you decide to go with a right-handed reliever against that lefty pinch-hitter in the eighth inning, Jimy?

The reply was so often "Manager's decision," it became a running joke. In Houston, everyone knew MD didn't mean you were talking about a doctor.

Lance Berkman bruised his shoulder running into the outfield wall. If he can't start tomorrow what are your options, Jimy?

"I'll think about that tomorrow," Williams would often reply.

Sure thing, Scarlett.

He was more hostile witness than baseball manager. You half expected him to take the fifth.

Williams did have his positive aspects. He is unquestionably a man of integrity and one of the best teachers of the game. He usually won't say much, but he'll never lie to you. An outstanding teacher, Williams deserves a lot of credit for the development of shortstops like Nomar Garciaparra and Adam Everett.

While there is some truth to the argument that most people, including the Astros, overestimated this team, there is no doubt that it has underachieved. This season is the last shot for this particular group of Astros, and that was another force pulling Williams towards the door. You can't replace the whole team in midseason, but you can replace the manager or the coaching staff. Houston management is hoping the arrival of Garner will do for the Astros what Jack McKeon's replacing of Jeff Torborg did for the Florida Marlins last year.

A desperate move? Perhaps, but the Astros are desperate to win now.

It was a management decision -- but at least this time, the fans have an explanation.

Jim Molony is a reporter for MLB.com. This story was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs.

[codell]

Here is a bit from another article on MLB.com:

Proof of Hunsicker's frustrations surfaced when he was asked how he expects the players to react to the managerial change.

"I don't really care what they think," he said. "They're getting paid to perform. We put a man in place that we feel can help turn this around."

Thats about as forward as you can get. :cool:

[JPM0016]

Originally posted by codell

"I don't really care what they think," he said.

my personal favorite part of the press conference. This team has no more excuses.

[francis 4 prez]

for some reason, hunsicker saying "flounder" and "clincher" seemed strangely out of place. usually, you just hear "we're struggling" or "in a slump", you know, coach/management speak. flounder is what you'd expect from a frustrated fan. and "clincher" doesn't fit into the whole coachspeak thing either. not that i have a problem with it, it's just that gerry has always seemed so diplomatic and those quotes weren't. then the "i don't really care what they think" comment really sounds like a fan who's pissed off. gerry doesn't sound too happy. guess i wouldn't either if i did a good job of putting together all this talent and they sucked about as bad as they collectively could for a half season plus.

[Uprising]

Bring on Garner! Jimy has had 2 years, we haven't made the playoffs in either of them. Before he came we made it 4 times in 5 years.

I hope the new coaches and manager can get it done in the second half!

I read today that Garner is only an interim coach. They will be shopping for a new one after the season is over.

Go Stros!

[M&M]

Scrappy doo!!! Scrap Iron reminds me of the old days. Hope we can get back to a playoff race. Now if they'd just bring Nolie in as the pitching coach. And whatever happened to Stretch Suba? Ah yes, and "Dome Dogs." Those were the days. Maybe we will turn it around after all. By the way the Terry Tate post was funny.

Oh one more thing. Didn't Jimy come from the Red Sox? Well there was your red flag on the resume captain obvious! Way to waste two years Drayton. The Red Sox are perennial wannabe's.

[codell]

M&M,

If im not mistaken, Stretch Suba is still the bullpen catcher.

He must be like 60 by now.