At what point do the Stros consider trading Beltran?

[SamCassell]

8 games out now, the team's still in freefall. Obviously this is a team built to win now, and it's looking like that might not happen. Beltran, and for that matter Kent, might return some badly needed prospects to the Stros if they're traded. And who knows, maybe Clemens would prefer to play for a contender if we're out of the running? I'd hold off on any drastic moves, but it has to be at least a consideration at this point.

[codell]

As long as we are within sniffing distance of the wild card by the trading deadline, I would be shocked to see this happen.

Two months and 50-60 games. Thats plent to make up a moderate defecit.

[Austin70]

The Astros are close, too close to quit.

[Groogrux]

Ditto what codell and Austin said. We're only three games or so out of the wild card. We're not going to play like this for the next 75 games.

[Trader_Jorge]

Trade him. McClane definitely won't spend the money to resign him.

[Behad]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
Trade him. McClane definitely won't spend the money to resign him.

http://images.chron.com/content/chronicle/comics/archive/2004/6/11/Dilbert.930.g.gif

[Trader_Jorge]

Congratulations Behad, you finally got to post that little nugget. My only question is how long have you been waiting -- finger at mouse point -- to gleefully pull the trigger on that post? Can you say obsession?

[Behad]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
Congratulations Behad, you finally got to post that little nugget. My only question is how long have you been waiting -- finger at mouse point -- to gleefully pull the trigger on that post? Can you say obsession?


Yes. Yes I can.

[nWo34Life]

Originally posted by Austin70
The Astros are close, too close to quit.

They are close to being last in the division if the Pirates keep up on this tear they're on.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by nWo34Life
They are close to being last in the division if the Pirates keep up on this tear they're on.

Doesn't change the fact that they're only 4 games out of the wild card with 80 games left.

It's too early to give up.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Doesn't change the fact that they're only 4 games out of the wild card with 80 games left.

It's too early to give up.

agreed..particularly on a team that probably has its last chance with veterans.

[codell]

as Astros fans, we are gluttons for punishment

yall know that don't you?? :)

[Behad]

Originally posted by codell
as Astros fans, we are gluttons for punishment

yall know that don't you?? :)

Could be worse...the Oilers could still be in town...

Check this out:


Frank Reich


Did that send a shiver down your back?

[Austin70]

Originally posted by nWo34Life
They are close to being last in the division if the Pirates keep up on this tear they're on.

I would want to quit it they were in last place and 15 games out, but the division is a close race.

[whag00]

Trade Beltran and Kent if they fall 7 or more games behind in the wild card chase before July 31...The reality is that the Cubs are a better team and as soon a Wood gets healthy it over.

And the Astros can't even dream about winning the division because the Cards are for real.

[mrpaige]

Of course, if the Astros start the big give up and start trading players away, we'd probably see the rest of the division even out and Astros fans will go on and on about how McLane traded away the division championship because he's a cheapskate who doesn't know baseball.

I say stay the course. Yeah, they haven't been playing all that well, but there's enough there to not give up at the half-way point. Being four games out of the Wild Card (even with several divisional rivals in front of that at present) is not give-up time.

In the last four years at least, the Astros have been a better second-half team than first-half team. Making up four games (or even eight games) isn't all that unlikely.

[codell]

Originally posted by Behad
Could be worse...the Oilers could still be in town...

Check this out:


Frank Reich


Did that send a shiver down your back?

I have no memory of that. What position did he play?

The last memory I have is of Bubba McDowell returning an interception for a TD in Buffalo.

[rockets-#1]

This shouldn't even have ever been a thought. I love 'em, but the Astros are the biggest bunch of underachievers right now. This team should definitely not be broken up unless it's the deadline and they're still doing as bad as they are now. I think they'll be fine, though.

[Fegwu]

Originally posted by Austin70
The Astros are close, too close to quit.


Close to what?

Pitsburg or The Cards?

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by Fegwu
Close to what?

Pitsburg or The Cards?

They are four games out of the wild card with 80 left to play. Way too soon to give up.

[SamCassell]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
They are four games out of the wild card with 80 left to play. Way too soon to give up.

If they're 6 back with 70 to play, is that too soon? What if they're 8 back with 60 to play? There's a point at which the season's buried, the question is when. I agree it's not time, not quite yet.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by SamCassell
If they're 6 back with 70 to play, is that too soon? What if they're 8 back with 60 to play? There's a point at which the season's buried, the question is when. I agree it's not time, not quite yet.

I'd say it's not over until they enter September 6+ games back.

I'll go out on a limb and say that won't happen.

[Smokey]

The only thing given right now is the Astros will not win a postseason series this year. If they make the playoffs, they will barely squeak in then get violated in the Division Series.

[Fegwu]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
They are four games out of the wild card with 80 left to play. Way too soon to give up.


I have not given up....I am just sad.

I love this team sooo much that seeing them go through this just demoralizes me.

I will hold out a scant hope......(like I did when I turned off my TV when we were 6-1 down to the rangers last Saturday only to find out later that we won 10-8).

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by Smokey
The only thing given right now is the Astros will not win a postseason series this year. If they make the playoffs, they will barely squeak in then get violated in the Division Series.

Thank you Nostradamus.

Mind telling me which stocks to buy?

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
They are four games out of the wild card with 80 left to play. Way too soon to give up.

4 games back, 80 left! But, 4 games behind the CUBS. I wouldn't subtract anyone yet but there are too many holes on this team. I don't think we will make the playoffs. (I would prefer to be wrong about not making the playoffs!)


On a side note: Did anybody watch the game on Sunday? Did anybody question Jimy's move when he ordered the intentional walk to Soriano. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what Showalter was going to do considering the bases were loaded and he had Blalock (and Redding pitching) on the bench. I mean, isn't that a little shortsighted?

[Refman]

When do we trade Beltran for prospects? Hmmm...

Assuming Bags retires and we don't bring back Bidge and Kent, we would have the money to re-sign Beltran.

So it becomes a question of when we trade a young, proven five tool player for a couple of young, unproven minor leaguers.

This makes no sense to me.

[tierre_brown]

Rather trade Kent before Beltran, assuming we had a TMac-esque agreement in place beforehand...

[SWTsig]

if the astros fail to make the playoffs this year, it will easily go down as one of the most disappointing seasons for any team in any sport.

and i'll be furious.

[DieHard Rocket]

Originally posted by Refman

Assuming Bags retires and we don't bring back Bidge and Kent, we would have the money to re-sign Beltran.


Bags retiring? Doesn't he make a boat-load of money the next 2 years? I'd definitely sacrifice a couple more years of Bidge and Kent for Beltran though. Perhaps Bidge would sign for cheap even.

Anyhow, I think the majority of Stros fans have hit the panic button too early. We've had Beltran, what, 2 weeks now...and we're only 4 games out of the Wild Card. Obviously the current hitting is not going to get it done, but this teams gotta make a run at some time and 4 games back is not enough to give up on. There are plenty of teams in the league that would be trading to add more pieces if they were only 4 games back (think Pirates, Royals, Brewers, Expos).

[Furious Jam]

Originally posted by SWTsig
if the astros fail to make the playoffs this year, it will easily go down as one of the most disappointing seasons for any team in any sport.

and i'll be furious.

No, I'm furious. You're SWTsig.

And we're all mad.

[wrath_of_khan]

There's a Rob Neyer column up on ESPN Insider about the Stros possibly cutting their losses and dealing Beltran.

Can anyone post it?

[AggieRocket]

Originally posted by codell
I have no memory of that. What position did he play?

The last memory I have is of Bubba McDowell returning an interception for a TD in Buffalo.

Frank Reich was Buffalo's backup QB that led the Bills to victory overcoming a 32 point deficit in what was perhaps the Oilers' monumental meltdown.

[codell]

Originally posted by AggieRocket
Frank Reich was Buffalo's backup QB that led the Bills to victory overcoming a 32 point deficit in what was perhaps the Oilers' monumental meltdown.

Was that the same game as McDowells INT-TD???

[The Real Shady]

Originally posted by wrath_of_khan
There's a Rob Neyer column up on ESPN Insider about the Stros possibly cutting their losses and dealing Beltran.

Can anyone post it?

Can't copy and paste from ESPN insider but I will sum it up for you. It basically says the Astros are out of trying to win the NL Central division, but still have a chance at the wild card. The next three weeks are going to be critical on if the astros are going to throw in the towel for the season. If they continue to lose ground to the cubs for the wild card they could look to move Beltran before the trade deadline with the Padres being an ideal landing spot.

For my personal opinion, this team is freakin done. We need to look to trade Beltran and Kent to a contender for some prospects. Let the rebuilding begin. :(

[bobrek]

Originally posted by codell
Was that the same game as McDowells INT-TD???

Yes.

[wrath_of_khan]

Originally posted by The Real Shady
Can't copy and paste from ESPN insider but I will sum it up for you. It basically says the Astros are out of trying to win the NL Central division, but still have a chance at the wild card. The next three weeks are going to be critical on if the astros are going to throw in the towel for the season. If they continue to lose ground to the cubs for the wild card they could look to move Beltran before the trade deadline with the Padres being an ideal landing spot.

Was it just speculation, or did they claim to have sources?

[ron413]

Originally posted by The Real Shady
Can't copy and paste from ESPN insider but I will sum it up for you.

Tuesday, July 6, 2004

Astros racing against time

By Rob Neyer
ESPN Insider


Eight. If you're trying to buy dinner in Manhattan, eight (dollars) isn't a big number. But if you're trying to win a division title in the Bronx, eight (games) in early July is a big number indeed. The Yankees are eight games ahead of the Red Sox, and have essentially been awarded the American League East title by all but the most pessimistic Yankees fans (and delusional Red Sox fans).


http://espn.starwave.com/media/mlb/2004/0628/photo/r_beltran_i.jpg

Carlos Beltran back on the trade market? It might be the Astros' only option.

And rightly so. You simply don't make up eight games in three months, and that goes double when the team you're trying to catch was generally favored to win the World Series.

But if the Red Sox are out of the running, then what about the Astros? They, too, are eight games out of first place ... and, making things worse, they don't trail one team (as the Red Sox do); they trail four. Even if you want to argue that the Astros need not concern themselves with the Reds and Brewers -- after all, both teams have been outscored -- the same certainly can't be said of the first-place Cardinals and the second-place Cubs. All things considered, both the Cards and Cubs have outplayed the Astros by roughly five games this season, and five games is a considerable number. Not as considerable as eight. But considerable nonetheless.

The Astros just aren't going to win the Central. They're too far behind too many good teams.

Since trading for Carlos Beltran, the Astros are just 4-6, and in the standings they've lost two games to the Cubs and three to the Cardinals. Of course, the nice thing about grabbing Beltran early -- as opposed to waiting until the trade "deadline" in late July -- is that you've still got plenty of time to send him to a real contender. The Astros gave up Octavio Dotel and John Buck to get Beltran, and it's not unreasonable to think they could get nearly as much back if they trade him to a contender.

Two weeks ago, oddsmakers considered the Padres the favorites in the Beltran sweepstakes, and I still think they're the best fit. Last week I suggested that the Padres don't have any serious weakness, but that's not really true. The Padres have gotten poor production from both their left fielders (mostly Ryan Klesko and Terrence Long) and their center fielders (Jay Payton). They probably have to simply hope that Klesko finds himself -- aside from somehow hitting just one home run in 172 at-bats, he's actually been himself -- but there's little reason to think that Long or Payton will suddenly transmogrify into good hitters.

I believe the Padres are the best team in the National League West, but by just the thinnest of margins. At this moment, the most likely outcome is that the Padres will not win the West, because there are two other contenders, and there's a better chance that one of them will win. Acquiring Carlos Beltran isn't going to change that, but acquiring Beltran would certainly improve the odds some, and the Padres have plenty of prospects to dangle in a trade offer.

So is Gerry Hunsicker on the phone with Kevin Towers at this very moment? I doubt it, because the Astros do still have one hope, and it's the same hope the Red Sox have: the wild card. The Astros are eight games out of first place, but "only" four games behind the Cubs in the wild-card race (likewise, the Red Sox are three-and-a-half games behind the Rangers or A's in the junior circuit). It's been fashionable in some quarters to suggest that mortgaging the future for a shot at the wild card doesn't make sense because wild-card teams don't have much chance of winning the World Series ... but we know that's not true, don't we? If you're the Astros or the Red Sox, you have to think if you can just get there, you've got as good a chance of winning as anybody.

Four, after all, isn't a big number. The Astros have three weeks to make that number smaller; if they make up some ground against the Cubs, they have to like their chances for a berth in the World Series derby. But if they don't gain ground, or especially if they lose ground, they've got to sell Carlos Beltran to the highest bidder. The Astros' rebuilding process is going to start soon, but how soon depends on what happens over the next few weeks.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/mlb/news/premium?id=1835183

[Hammer755]

Another thing to consider is that while the Astros are only 4 games out of the wild-card, there are 7 or 8 teams between them and the Cubs. It will be a tough road to pass all of those teams.

[codell]

Originally posted by bobrek
Yes.

Really??

And we lost that game??

Hmmmmmm










:p

[Smokey]

Throw in the towel. Don't mortgage the future for these losers. This season is safe to say a disaster.

[Behad]

Originally posted by AggieRocket
Frank Reich was Buffalo's backup QB that led the Bills to victory overcoming a 32 point deficit in what was perhaps the Oilers' monumental meltdown.


Turn your sarcasm meter back on.

[mrpaige]

So, do the "cheapskate" calls start up again right after trading Beltran or do they wait until Spring Training?

[Refman]

Originally posted by DieHard Rocket
Bags retiring? Doesn't he make a boat-load of money the next 2 years?
I think it is one year. Keep in mind that his shoulder is causing him a lot of pain. You can see it in his face when he is at bat. There are a lot of baseball folks who think he may hang them up.

[JPM0016]

Originally posted by Refman
I think it is one year. Keep in mind that his shoulder is causing him a lot of pain. You can see it in his face when he is at bat. There are a lot of baseball folks who think he may hang them up.

He's got 3 years left on his contract. His buyout for the 3rd year is a ridiculous 7 million dollars.

I do believe if the slump continues he'll hang it up. However if he goes on a tear just has he has in previous years i think he'll keep going.

I thought his swings looked pretty good last night, hopefully its a sign of what is to come

[tierre_brown]

So f*cking sad that in the preseason everyone was talking World Series...Central Division champs was almost a given. Now we're talking about limping into the playoffs as a wild-card team or even hanging up the season as a disaster...and everyone in management thought this was the Stros' year...:(

[franchise?..NOT]

Beltran is the kind of guy you build a team around like Bagwell or Bonds. Sign him long term at all costs. Let Kent and Bidge walk. Buy out Bags. Give Burke and Lane their shot. Whoever they put a first will be a letdown but there are options there with Lamb or Hiatt or an FA . Nice to have a bags there but someone who can hit legitimate 5 or six and not trip over his feet too badly at first is OK.

1Burke
2Everett
3Beltran
4Berkman
5,6,7 Choose among
Lamb
Lane
Ensberg
Hiatt
8 Ausmus

O
Pettite
Miller
Hernandez

Lidge

That could be a fun team again and one to watch grow. Kind of like the early 90's.

[franchise?..NOT]

Looking at NO stats. There are many more options Hiatt being the least of those. Whiteman, Alfaro, Huffman, Eckleman. maybe Buchholz is ready next year or B4. Fill it in the way you like but I think it's time to bring in some new talent to blend with some of the old and see what you get. It's going to be a tough not challenging for a year or two but exciting baseball has been tough to come by the last couple of years. Time for a change.

[MadMax]

3 games out of the Wild Card. Don't give up yet.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by tierre_brown
So f*cking sad that in the preseason everyone was talking World Series...Central Division champs was almost a given. Now we're talking about limping into the playoffs as a wild-card team or even hanging up the season as a disaster...and everyone in management thought this was the Stros' year...:(

i don't care how we get to the playoffs, as long as we get past the first round.

[JPM0016]

last two world series champions have come from the wildcard. If you get into the playoffs anything can happen

[gunn]

Originally posted by JPM0016
last two world series champions have come from the wildcard. If you get into the playoffs anything can happen

The last two wildcards in the Angels and the Marlins won with homegrown talent and had nothing to lose. The Astros on the other hand have alot to lose. If they keep this team together we could lose any leverage we have in getting prospects for Beltran and Kent. This team just doesn't have the make-up of a champion. Our starting pitching outside of Oswalt and Clemens is very questionable as with the collection of relievers we have. Despite when those two pitch well alot of times the offense dosen't tend to come through. The Astros have lost 6 of the last 10 series dating back to the start of June and in that time have gone 14-18. This team is just not getting the job done and as a result they are done. Bagwell is finished, and this team in general is old and slow and the manager and clubhouse reflect that. Let the rebuilding begin.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by gunn
The last two wildcards in the Angels and the Marlins won with homegrown talent and had nothing to lose. The Astros on the other hand have alot to lose. If they keep this team together we could lose any leverage we have in getting prospects for Beltran and Kent. This team just doesn't have the make-up of a champion. Our starting pitching outside of Oswalt and Clemens is very questionable as with the collection of relievers we have. Despite when those two pitch well alot of times the offense dosen't tend to come through. The Astros have lost 6 of the last 10 series dating back to the start of June and in that time have gone 14-18. This team is just not getting the job done and as a result they are done. Bagwell is finished, and this team in general is old and slow and the manager and clubhouse reflect that. Let the rebuilding begin.

as a season ticket holder, i strongly disagree.

[gunn]

Originally posted by MadMax
as a season ticket holder, i strongly disagree.

It will be tough for you. But your disappointment meter would be lowered.

[Buck Turgidson]

Yep, 3 games out of the playoffs with 79 games left. Time to tear this sucker down.

[gunn]

Originally posted by Buck Turgidson
Yep, 3 games out of the playoffs with 79 games left. Time to tear this sucker down.

Do you honestly believe this team can catch the Cardinals, who have the best record in baseball and are just running over teams, or the Cubs for that matter who are not even at full strength yet and have dominated the Astros this season? You need to come down from the clouds Buck, this team is playing like the season is done, and have been since last month.

We'll see how strong they come with a fairly easy schedule the rest of the month. My guess is they will get handled in the six games against L.A., who have been playing some good baseball. As for the games agianst San Diego, Milwaukee, Arizona, and Cincinnati, with the way we've been playing, I'd say it's up in the air. I think we'll be lucky to finish out the month .500.

[Buck Turgidson]

I believe this team, with a little bully help, can make the playoffs, yes.

[DVauthrin]

Originally posted by Buck Turgidson
Yep, 3 games out of the playoffs with 79 games left. Time to tear this sucker down.

Good one Buck. But in my opinion, you don't trade Beltran period. I firmly believe that regardless of what happens this season(and I agree with Buck about the season not being over by far) the Astros need to keep Beltran in an Astros uniform because I think they have a legitimate chance to retain his services this offseason.

From all accounts, Beltran is a private guy who doesn't want to be mobbed by the press and media day by day and hates traffic, and also wants to win(like any player).

Now examining the choices out there for him this offseason, you have a few possibilities:

Yankees
Red Sox
Cubs
Padres
Mets
Angels
Tigers
Phillies

I think it's safe to scratch the tigers and cubs from this list as the tigers aren't contenders and the cubs shouldn't be considering moving patterson out of CF. The Mets aren't really that feasible either because he would just go to the Yankees if he was to go to NY.

As far as the Pads, Phils and Angels are concerned, I think philly has tapped out their spending already; the angels don't need more offense, and the Padres have that insanely severe pitchers park known as Petco.

So we are down to the Yankees/Red Sox. The Red Sox would have to shift damon to LF or RF to make this work for them, and that won't sit well with damon, who is going to be hard to move with his contract. Plus, it doesn't fit with Beltran's desire to have privacy and less traffic.

The Yankees are a serious concern I'll admit, since they need a CF, have burning pockets and Beltran has family in the Bronx. But they also have crazy traffic and the press will hound Carlos to death.

I am not going to lose sleep over whether the Astros keep Beltran or not, but I think the possibility he stays is at least 50-50 if the astros want him to be the centerpiece of their good future upcoming. And if you trade him now, you lose any chance of bringing back a player of his caliber and tick off your fan base, which rightfully has visions of success with the talent on this team.

For all those reasons, I wouldn't consider trading Beltran unless I got wowed and it was a lost cause trying to win this season(which it isn't yet).

[MadMax]

gunn --

we know this team is capable of playing better than they have. they have already showed us that much in april.

people keep saying the cubs are going to run away and hide. they haven't shown us that yet. are they capable of it?? sure. but you don't scrap this team we have because the cubs are capable of beating them, Prime Minister Chamberlain.

they're in a race. probably the last race this crop of veterans will ever be in. they're 3 games out of the wild card. for all their bad play, they're 3 games out.

[Hammer755]

Originally posted by gunn
Do you honestly believe this team can catch the Cardinals, who have the best record in baseball and are just running over teams, or the Cubs for that matter who are not even at full strength yet and have dominated the Astros this season? You need to come down from the clouds Buck, this team is playing like the season is done, and have been since last month.

I would be far more worried about the Cubs than I would the Cards if I was an Astros fan. St. Louis's starting pitching simply cannot keep up the its first-half pace. Suppan, Carpenter, & Marquis are all having career years, and Woody Williams' age makes a collapse similar to last season's likely.

The Cubs, however, have stayed near the top of the division despite losing Prior, Wood, and Sosa for large chunks of the first half.

I still think the Astros have a slim chance of winning the division - the Reds & Brewers will almost certainly fade - and at least a 50/50 shot at the wild card.

The real question is which Astros team will show up after the All-Star Break - the one that tore out of the gates to begin the season or the one that closed out the first half whimpering.

[gunn]

Originally posted by Buck Turgidson
I believe this team, with a little bully help, can make the playoffs, yes.

Like I said, I think they are done, and their play is backing up my stance on the subject, but we'll have to see how they finish out the month. If they keep up the under .500 ball like they have the past month for the rest of July, then the rebuilding process will be swift.

[VesceySux]

Originally posted by Refman
Assuming Bags retires and we don't bring back Bidge and Kent, we would have the money to re-sign Beltran.

So it becomes a question of when we trade a young, proven five tool player for a couple of young, unproven minor leaguers.

This makes no sense to me.

I don't want to burst your bubble, but based on what I've heard, Beltran is strictly a rental. He wasn't traded to the Astros with some sort of handshake deal to re-sign with the team. He was brought in to help win a championship this year and nothing more.

I'm merely repeating what I was told.

(Now, could management try to resign him after the season ends? Possibly. I honestly don't know. I guess it depends on how he does with us. However, AFAIK, Beltran is not in management's long-term plans this minute.)

[gunn]

Originally posted by DVauthrin
For all those reasons, I wouldn't consider trading Beltran unless I got wowed...


It would be an absolute dream of mine if we were able to convince Beltran to stay in an Astros uniform, but the reality of that is bleak. And don't forget that his agent is Scott Boras, so unless the Astros make an offer that blows the others out of the water or unless there is a small miracle that Carlos wants to play in Houston, I just do not see it happening.

[DVauthrin]

Originally posted by gunn
It would be an absolute dream of mine if we were able to convince Beltran to stay in an Astros uniform, but the reality of that is bleak. And don't forget that his agent is Scott Boras, so unless the Astros make an offer that blows the others out of the water or unless there is a small miracle that Carlos wants to play in Houston, I just do not see it happening.

I know who his agent is, and like I said I won't lose sleep over it, but in my opinion if the Astros want him back and they aren't completely out of it by July 31st and he tells you he won't stay, you keep him, see how he likes Houston, and then offer him 15 for 5. This is not A 30 something Randy Johnson who was expected to be towards the end of his career. This a 27 year old five tool superstar looking to be the centerpiece of a winning team and organization, which Houston can easily provide.

The bottom line is regardless what happens this season, I think the Astros need to reload starting next season and with Biggio, Kent, Hidalgo, and Clemens, and possibly Bagwell off the books, they can afford him if they so desire. I'm not saying it's likely, but I think there is a better chance than most think.

[gunn]

Originally posted by DVauthrin
I know who his agent is, and like I said I won't lose sleep over it, but in my opinion if the Astros want him back and they aren't completely out of it by July 31st and he tells you he won't stay, you keep him, see how he likes Houston, and then offer him 15 for 5. This is not A 30 something Randy Johnson who was expected to be towards the end of his career. This a 27 year old five tool superstar looking to be the centerpiece of a winning team and organization, which Houston can easily provide.

The bottom line is regardless what happens this season, I think the Astros need to reload starting next season and with Biggio, Kent, Hidalgo, and Clemens, and possibly Bagwell off the books, they can afford him if they so desire. I'm not saying it's likely, but I think there is a better chance than most think.


Believe me, I mentioned the thought a number of times in other threads, and I do seriously believe that if the Astros can come up with an incredibly large contract, they've got a shot at keeping Carlos, but I won't be holding my breath in anticipation.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by DVauthrin
The bottom line is regardless what happens this season, I think the Astros need to reload starting next season and with Biggio, Kent, Hidalgo, and Clemens, and possibly Bagwell off the books, they can afford him if they so desire. I'm not saying it's likely, but I think there is a better chance than most think.

If Biggio continues to hit as he has this year, the Astros ought to pick up his option. At 3 million, a leadoff hitter who hits .300 with 20 HRs is a bargain. His LF defense is very suspect at this time, but he will certainly put in the effort to improve over the offseason.

The Astros are in a position to compete while they rebuild/reload (if rebuilding becomes necessary). It would also be reasonable to try and sign Clemens to another 5 million contract. Regardless of personnel, a staff headed up by Oswalt, Clemens and Pettitte will keep a team competitive.

The Astros have been playing well below expectations but their attendance has been stellar and from watching the games on TV, the crowd has not yet "turned" on them. McLane is smart enough to recognize the sellouts and do all that he can to keep the team competitive and marketable.

As I have posted before, I believe that Bagwell is the key to having Beltran resign with the team. He either needs to start hitting like the Bagwell of old and spur them into the playoffs (thus making it more likely Beltran would stay with a winning team), or he needs to consider a retirement buyout and not subject himself to the pain and skills degradation over the next 2-3 years. Of course, the optimum solution would be to trade him to an AL team for a few prospects.

[baytownson]

I'm in agreement with most that Beltran is just a rental, however, it is interesting to note that the CF of the future Willy Tavares has been seen playing LF this past week in Round Rock.

[Austin70]

Originally posted by baytownson
I'm in agreement with most that Beltran is just a rental, however, it is interesting to note that the CF of the future Willy Tavares has been seen playing LF this past week in Round Rock.


He is recovering from a hip injury.

[DVauthrin]

Originally posted by bobrek
If Biggio continues to hit as he has this year, the Astros ought to pick up his option. At 3 million, a leadoff hitter who hits .300 with 20 HRs is a bargain. His LF defense is very suspect at this time, but he will certainly put in the effort to improve over the offseason.

The Astros are in a position to compete while they rebuild/reload (if rebuilding becomes necessary). It would also be reasonable to try and sign Clemens to another 5 million contract. Regardless of personnel, a staff headed up by Oswalt, Clemens and Pettitte will keep a team competitive.

The Astros have been playing well below expectations but their attendance has been stellar and from watching the games on TV, the crowd has not yet "turned" on them. McLane is smart enough to recognize the sellouts and do all that he can to keep the team competitive and marketable.

As I have posted before, I believe that Bagwell is the key to having Beltran resign with the team. He either needs to start hitting like the Bagwell of old and spur them into the playoffs (thus making it more likely Beltran would stay with a winning team), or he needs to consider a retirement buyout and not subject himself to the pain and skills degradation over the next 2-3 years. Of course, the optimum solution would be to trade him to an AL team for a few prospects.

I wasn't suggesting to get rid of Biggio or Clemens, I just would rather keep Beltran if I was forced to choose between them for the future. I think they could still afford it if Bags takes one for the team and they let Kent walk. My point is I think the Astros should do everything in their power to try and retain Beltran's services unless he clearly states I don't want to be back.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by DVauthrin
I wasn't suggesting to get rid of Biggio or Clemens, I just would rather keep Beltran if I was forced to choose between them for the future. I think they could still afford it if Bags takes one for the team and they let Kent walk. My point is I think the Astros should do everything in their power to try and retain Beltran's services unless he clearly states I don't want to be back.

I agree. I just hope they aren't put into the position to decide between Biggio/Clemens and Beltran. Considering they don't have to pay Dotel and that Miller's 2005 salary is going down with every day he spends on the DL, they have some avenues of cash to spend.

[HillBoy]

Originally posted by nWo34Life
They are close to being last in the division if the Pirates keep up on this tear they're on.
Hear Hear!

This is why the Astros are the "Lastros". Beltran is better than any of the stiffs they are paying good money to leave men on base, score no runs and have closed door meetings on why they suck after losses. THOSE guys will stay on while he's the one who'll be traded. The guy they NEED to let go is Bagwell and that bloated contract (which would allow them to sign Beltran) but they don't have the guts to pull that trigger so next year they'll still be overpaying their no. 6 hitter again and again and again...

[SamCassell]

Hillboy, I'm not sure you understand the concept of a guaranteed contract.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by SamCassell
Hillboy, I'm not sure you understand the concept of a guaranteed contract.

or the difficulty of moving a high-dollar contract of a player you, yourself, claim to be worthless.

[franchise?..NOT]

Again, there is no way you trade a player like Beltran. Even if we are out of it come the TD. Trade Bags, (fat chance), Biggio could help a team the way he is hitting. Kent likewise, trade him. Viscaino, gone. Even Ausmus. But not Beltran. Re-build next year or after July if we're out of it.

[bottlerocket]

This season sux azz. We are almost in last place in the division and we are getting spoiled Beltran's talent unfortunately Drayton McFrugal won't resign him...but had been white he might.

The Rocket should retire after the All Star break.

[Joshfast]

Originally posted by bottlerocket
This season sux azz. We are almost in last place in the division and we are getting spoiled Beltran's talent unfortunately Drayton McFrugal won't resign him...but had been white he might.

The Rocket should retire after the All Star break.

Probably the worst post ever. Sorry if you are being WAY sarcastic, but it's pretty late.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by bottlerocket
This season sux azz. We are almost in last place in the division and we are getting spoiled Beltran's talent unfortunately Drayton McFrugal won't resign him...but had been white he might.

The Rocket should retire after the All Star break.

mcfrugal?? seriously???

anyone who puts the burden of this season on the owner hasn't watched much baseball.

[JPM0016]

Originally posted by bottlerocket
This season sux azz. We are almost in last place in the division and we are getting spoiled Beltran's talent unfortunately Drayton McFrugal won't resign him...but had been white he might.

The Rocket should retire after the All Star break.

when the team is losing this forum becomes just as bad as the GARM. What an idiotic post

[dskillz]

Originally posted by MadMax
mcfrugal?? seriously???

anyone who puts the burden of this season on the owner hasn't watched much baseball.

Seriously. Drayton and Hunzicker cannot be blamed this season. They have done everything they can to get a winning team on the field. The players and manager have completely failed this season and they should be ashamed.

[bottlerocket]

Originally posted by codell
Was that the same game as McDowells INT-TD???

I still have yet to get over that. That is the most weirdest thing I have ever seen. Freaking Prevent Defense don't work for awhole 2quarters of football.

[franchise?..NOT]

You consider trading Beltran in about 10 years when his hall of fame career is winding down. Just like they need to do with Bags right now.

[fya]

What's even worse is Doggy's performance with the Mutts. He looks like his 2001 self again.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by fya
What's even worse is Doggy's performance with the Mutts. He looks like his 2001 self again.

With Hidalgo, you have to evaluate his performance over the long haul. he has been incredibly streaky this year. In April, he looked like his 2000 (that was his 44 HR season, not 2001) self. In May and June he looked like his 2001, 2002 self.

[fya]

Ok, nevertheless, Doggy is looking like stud right now. The hitting coach should also be fired when they fire Jimy.

[Raven]

Package Beltran with Bagwell, in a salary dump.
Trade Clemens (with his ok) for prospects.

It's time to tear this sucker down and rebuild.

New lineup
New coach
New owner (ok, I can dream, can't I)

[The Real Shady]

Originally posted by Raven
Package Beltran with Bagwell, in a salary dump.
Trade Clemens (with his ok) for prospects.

It's time to tear this sucker down and rebuild.

New lineup
New coach
New owner (ok, I can dream, can't I)

I'm sure if we packaged Bagwell along with Beltran we could trade them to a contender. I don't think we would get anything back though.

[HillBoy]

Originally posted by MadMax
or the difficulty of moving a high-dollar contract of a player you, yourself, claim to be worthless.
Worthless? Possibly. Done? Definitely. Should retire? Absolutely!

As usual you completely missed my point. My POINT here is that the Astros should be about the business of trying to keep a 5 tool 27 year old player instead of "renting" him for the remainder of this season while keeping Bagwell who's not the answer for the future. Sure his contract is big but there are always ways around that. Instead, what will happen is that they will trade Beltran and keep Bagwell and next year will be a continuation of the past 2 years of watching Bagwell play less and less OK and not be a factor in helping this team's succeed all the while offering the usual legion of excuses why he is really not as bad as he looks.

I truly hate to admit this but they need to take a lesson from the Texas Rangers and go with younger CHEAPER players who can ACTUALLY run, field, catch and most important of all HIT.

[HillBoy]

Originally posted by MadMax
mcfrugal?? seriously???

anyone who puts the burden of this season on the owner hasn't watched much baseball.
Agreed. Can't blame this trainwreck on Drayton. Now Hunsiker, Williams and the coaching staff is a different story altogether...

[codell]

Originally posted by HillBoy
Agreed. Can't blame this trainwreck on Drayton. Now Hunsiker, Williams and the coaching staff is a different story altogether...

Wha???

How is Hunsicker to blame???

Dude is one of the best GMs in baseball.

[SamCassell]

Sometimes foresight is 20/20.