ClutchFans - Breaking News: Henson to Cowboys

ChrisP

03-12-2004, 06:55 PM

The Houston Texans have traded the rights to quarterback Drew Henson to the Dallas Cowboys for a third-round draft choice in the 2005 NFL draft, ESPN.com has learned.

Henson and the Cowboys have agreed on an eight-year contract that will void to four years with minimum playing time. The former New York Yankees third baseman will make $238,000 during the 2004 season, and is guaranteed $3.5 million over the next four years.

The Texans drafted Henson, a former standout at the University of Michigan, in the sixth round of the 2003 draft.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1758167

Not 3.4M per, but 3.5M guaranteed over 4 years. I agree that you can't really scoff at a 6th round pick turned into a 3rd rounder. The gamble payed off.

Plus, I remember hearing that the Texans were asking for either or 2nd rounder, or a 3rd rounder with a stipulation that Drew's performance could bump it to a 1st rounder. We'll see if that 1st round performance clause is a reality.

CriscoKidd

03-12-2004, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by PhiSlammaJamma
I think our hand was forced on this one, so I guess we take what we can get.

Kinda agree with this somewhat. But the Texans knew going into this offseason that they were going to have to give in to what Henson wanted as well for this to work.

That 3rd rounder may end up being higher than Dallas's spot this year, as I don't see them as a lock for the playoffs, but next years draft may not be as deep as this years.

Q will definitely be the starter next year. the boys may still bring in a vet backup qb sometime in case Q falters or gets injured. Maybe Vinny when he gets cut.

Well I'm happy about this news. :D

Remix

03-12-2004, 07:08 PM

what happened to getting a 1st round pick or a 2nd in this or next years draft?

RC Cola

03-12-2004, 07:15 PM

I'm ok with this as a Cowboys fan, probably more than ok, but to be honest, I know very little about Henson except the little I've heard about him lately. I didn't have a problem with keeping QC at QB this year as long as the other positions were addressed (RB,DE, etc) but the QB job would have to be addressed eventually.

I didn't quite expect to get him for a 3rd rounder, especially me only reading the expections from here. I didn't quite want to give up a 1st rd pick for him :D.

While it is important to have the other positions addressed, having a QB who could rifle it into a small target would be nice. And it seems like the Texans did get something good out of the gamble, yet it wasn't too much to hurt the Cowboys too bad, so maybe we can both be happy.

Uprising

03-12-2004, 07:21 PM

I just saw it on ABC News at 5. I hope a contract gets set so that we get that 3rd round pick....

If no contract, then Henson will be in the draft.

EDIT: as posted above, ESPN is reporting the contract has been signed. Sweet!

Man that is awesome, a 6th rounder turned into a 3rd rounder! Way to go C!!!!

RocketFan007

03-12-2004, 07:25 PM

I can't believe some of you are complaining that we "only" got a third round pick. We got a third for a sixth, that's a great trade.

moestavern19

03-12-2004, 07:27 PM

3rd Round pick in 2005, that doesn't seem anything like the 1st rounder everyone was so sure the texans would be getting. Oh well, turning a 6th into a 3rd is still a good move.

tierre_brown

03-12-2004, 07:38 PM

I thought prior reports had the pick going as high as a second rounder or first rounder based on Henson's performance? This Dallas trade says that it's a 3rd rounder, regardless of performance? Think we could have at least negotiated that?

4chuckie

03-12-2004, 07:56 PM

As a Cowboy fan this move makes little sense unless Parcells can talk Testaverde into playing next year. Henson won't be ready to play and Carter will know his days a re numbered.

So if the Cowboys can get Vinny to play then I think it's a good move, but if they plan on Keeping Quincy next year as the starter then I don't understand the move.

Baqui99

03-12-2004, 08:46 PM

This doesn't make up for the Tony Hollings fiasco.

RocketFan007

03-12-2004, 09:52 PM

originslly posted by Baqui99
This doesn't make up for the Tony Hollings fiasco.

How can you say the guy is a fiasco when you've hardly seen him play? Hollings was coming off of a torn ACL, at least give him time to recover and actually play before you bash him.

leroy420

03-12-2004, 10:01 PM

It's nice it's over and all, but did we have to help the Cowgirls? What happened to that whole conditional pick? The gamble worked (by merely turning a 6th into a 3rd).

Roc Paint

03-12-2004, 10:08 PM

Getting a third round pick for Henson is fantastic news for the Texans.

SamCassell

03-12-2004, 10:15 PM

Done deal, according to ESPN. Contract signed.

HOUSTON -- Quarterback Drew Henson will get his chance to play in the NFL with the Dallas Cowboys.

Dallas acquired Henson from the Houston Texans on Friday for a third-round pick in the 2005 draft. Henson then agreed to an eight-year deal with the Cowboys, his agent, Tom Condon said.

Henson was selected in the sixth round by the Texans in last year's draft. Houston, which already has David Carr at quarterback, planned all along to deal the former Michigan starter who spent three full-time seasons playing baseball in the New York Yankees' organization.

Three other teams expressed serious interest in Henson: Cleveland, St. Louis and Buffalo. Henson, 24, worked out for 20 teams in Houston earlier this offseason.

On Thursday, Cowboys owner Jerry Jones said he was intrigued by Henson, who worked out for Dallas on March 1. And on Friday, Jones worked out an eight-year deal, with the final four years voidable.

Henson will get a guaranteed $3.5 million, the most ever for a sixth-round pick. He'll earn the minimum rookie salary of $228,000 this season, but with attainable incentives he can easily increase his earnings over the length of the deal.

Neither team would comment on the deal Friday. Paperwork on the contract was expected to be complete some time next week.

"We are not in a position to confirm anything at this time," Cowboys spokesman Rich Dalrymple said. "We would only make an announcement if something was official or final, but at this time we have no comment or confirmation."

The Texans used the first of their two sixth-round picks last year on Henson, betting he would have another disappointing season in the Yankees' farm system and would decide to give up the $12 million remaining on his baseball deal and return to football.

General manager Charley Casserly's gambit paid off in early February when Henson did just that. The Cowboys were among 20 teams who sent representatives to Houston on Feb. 12 to watch an open workout in the Texans' practice bubble, with assistant head coach Sean Payton leading a three-man contingent.

Henson had one stellar season at Michigan in 2000 and was projected to be a top draft pick in 2002 if he had another good year with the Wolverines. Instead, he signed with the Yankees as their third baseman of the future and left school.

But his choppy fielding and free swinging never improved, The club showed its patience had worn thin when it traded for third baseman Aaron Boone last year. When Boone suffered a season-ending knee injury this winter, New York made it clear Henson would not be considered and eventually traded for Alex Rodriguez.

"Michigan, the Yankees and the Cowboys. That's a pretty talented athlete to be with those teams," Yankees general manager Brian Cashman said. "I'm happy for him. He was in a position where he had some control of his situation. He's with a good organization and good coach (Bill Parcells)."

Henson, mired in a deep slump to start the 2003 season at Triple-A Columbus, insisted he was committed to baseball when the Texans selected him. He finished the year with a .234 average and 122 strikeouts, and in a six-year minor-league career whiffed 556 times in 501 games.

The deal means Dallas has three former minor-league baseball players at the quarterback position. Starter Quincy Carter played in the Chicago Cubs' organization in 1996, '97 and '98.

Dallas signed former Stanford quarterback Chad Hutchinson before the 2002 season after he gave up on a career with the St. Louis Cardinals.

Puedlfor

03-12-2004, 10:19 PM

The Hollings fiasco isn't that the player isn't good, but the pick we spent on him.

Lil Francis

03-12-2004, 10:52 PM

John McClain was on 610 today and he siad it would be between the Rams and the Cowboys. He also said that its almost a done deal that the Texans will draft Chris Gamble since they can't trade and get Taylor. Gamble has been in Houston since the end of the college season.

Fegwu

03-12-2004, 11:23 PM

This officially make me a Cowboys fan...............also.

I am a huge Drew Henson fan and I will be rooting heavily for him to succeed. Drew is going to be great - he what the cowboys needed to make them an elite team. He is going to start for the cowboys this upcoming season. And when he finally starts, he will not relinquish ever again until he leaves the team. Cowboys fans out there count yourselves blessed.

Now I have 3 NFL teams - Broncos, Texans and Cowboys. At least on any given sunday, one of them will win.

Rocket Fan

03-13-2004, 12:21 AM

note to cowboy fans.. keeping henson was never an option..

I don't want to hear in a few years. how you stole henson from us. and you are so smart.. and the texans traded their top qb for a third rounder blah blah..

carry on..

rezdawg

03-13-2004, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by Fegwu
Now I have 3 NFL teams - Broncos, Texans and Cowboys.

Because you said this, you are not really a Texans fan.

Raven Lunatic

03-13-2004, 02:34 AM

I probably should never have gotten my hopes up for anything better than a 3rd round pick. All the talk of 2nd round and potential 1st round picks happened mostly before Henson's asshol... I mean agent really got involved with the contract negotiations. You had to know he would make it harder than it needed to be. Oh well, as others have noted, you can't complain about getting something for nothing, which is essentially what this deal amounted to. Great job, CC!

Desert Scar

03-13-2004, 02:35 AM

As a Cowboys fan I like the trade. Still I highly doubt he could beat out QC or Hutch or another vet QB for 04. Henson played what 8 games of college football??? Also JJ saves a lot of money if he plays less than 15% of the snaps this year. I see a 1-2 year plan to get him ready for the NFL, I'd be shocked if he were counted on this year, but I wouldn't mind being pleasently surprised.

Raven Lunatic

03-13-2004, 02:47 AM

Originally posted by Desert Scar
Also JJ saves a lot of money if he plays less than 15% of the snaps this year. I see a 1-2 year plan to get him ready for the NFL, I'd be shocked if he were counted on this year, but I wouldn't mind being pleasently surprised.

I don't think him playing less than 15% saves JJ any money...just saves cap room. If he plays in 15%, the 8 year deal voids to 4 years. He still gets $3.5 million in guaranteed money, but he gets it after next season if he plays in 15% of the games in 2004, as opposed to getting it spaced out over the 8 years of the contract if the 15% mark isn't reached. Certainly it seems like good enough reason for the Cowboys to try to keep Henson out of games this season. As an avid Cowboys "hata", I hope for many injuries to Quincy and whoever else they bring in. :D

mateo

03-13-2004, 06:15 AM

Considering the unusual QB glut in FA this offseason, I am glad to see this turn into something significant.

Who knows, maybe we can package this pick along with something else for the ability to draft Taylor.

4chuckie

03-13-2004, 07:25 AM

Originally posted by Lil Francis
John McClain was on 610 today and he siad it would be between the Rams and the Cowboys. He also said that its almost a done deal that the Texans will draft Chris Gamble since they can't trade and get Taylor. Gamble has been in Houston since the end of the college season.

Chris Gamble may have dropped int eh draft. Ohio State had their pro day yesterday and Gamble was expected to run a 4.45 ran just over a 4.5.
Throw on top of that he is very raw at CB (really just one full season in college at CB).
I dunno I like Gamble and he is a great athlete but I think it will take him at least a full season to be able to play CB in the NFL.

leroy420

03-13-2004, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
note to cowboy fans.. keeping henson was never an option..

I don't want to hear in a few years. how you stole henson from us. and you are so smart.. and the texans traded their top qb for a third rounder blah blah..

carry on..

They'll do it any way. That is what makes Cow fans Cow fans. I honestly remember hearing from a Cow fan back in the 1-15 season, "We're 0-10? Still going to the playoffs!"

peleincubus

03-13-2004, 08:30 AM

why was it not a option for the texans to keep him? was it because of Carr?

and if so i guess that means that Henson is suppost to be to good to be a backup in the NFL...

Fegwu

03-13-2004, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by rezdawg
Because you said this, you are not really a Texans fan.

Why?

I fell in love with Henson's game when he was in Michigan. I have always rooted for him even when he was in the Yankees farm system. Before now I have never really liked the cowboys - but last years the acquired Bill Parcells and now one of my favorite players. So are you saying I should stop rooting for Henson because of this?

I see your point but it does not fly.

meh

03-13-2004, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by peleincubus
why was it not a option for the texans to keep him? was it because of Carr?

and if so i guess that means that Henson is suppost to be to good to be a backup in the NFL...

You're missing the point. If you were Drew Henson and thought you had a chance to be a starting QB, the LAST QB you want to play behind is someone like Carr. Carr's too young and good for Henson to have a legitimate shot at starting QB. Remember, he does have the choice of returning to the draft this year.

Henson wanted to go to a place where he'll be the "QB of the future". Not just a perenial backup.

JPM0016

03-13-2004, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by peleincubus
why was it not a option for the texans to keep him? was it because of Carr?

and if so i guess that means that Henson is suppost to be to good to be a backup in the NFL...

The Texans had 2 options

1.) Trade Drew Henson to the team he desires

2.) Do nothing and let Henson enter the NFL Draft

Drew Henson controlled his future. If the texans were unable to trade him to a team of his liking he'd simply go back in the draft, get drafted late in the 1st and make millions. He never intended to backup a 24 year old rising star. that was never an option.

Rocket Fan

03-13-2004, 11:24 AM

well the reason I brought it up was because often times you hear. so and so team is "the team that traded x player away"..

I know if he becomes good down the road ill hear this but he was not going to sign here and no one planned for him to sign here so it is a ridiculous statement to make..

staying here wasn't an option because a player doesn't give up as much money as he gave up to be a backup qb... and you dont trade the quarterback you took number 1 ...2 years ago...

unless he is a bust or something.. you'd never get number 1 value out of him in a trade

Lil Francis

03-13-2004, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by 4chuckie
Chris Gamble may have dropped int eh draft. Ohio State had their pro day yesterday and Gamble was expected to run a 4.45 ran just over a 4.5.
Throw on top of that he is very raw at CB (really just one full season in college at CB).
I dunno I like Gamble and he is a great athlete but I think it will take him at least a full season to be able to play CB in the NFL. Yeah Gamble is a great athlete but it may be a reach to take him at #10. I like DeAngelo Hall a little better because he is more of a game breaker than Gamble. Hall is like a Phillip Buchanon type who can score anywhere on the field.

DrewP

03-14-2004, 01:57 AM

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
note to cowboy fans.. keeping henson was never an option..

I don't want to hear in a few years. how you stole henson from us. and you are so smart.. and the texans traded their top qb for a third rounder blah blah..

carry on..
Ok, well, note to texans fans... drafting henson with a 6th round pick doesnt make casserly the god you think he is. It was a good move, but hes not a genius because of it. Henson told teams specifically NOT to draft him. Casserly just ignored this and took a risk on a pick ( the 6th rounder) that was worth very little. Although it was a good move, maybe you should get off your knees until we see what this third round pick produces.

Uprising

03-14-2004, 02:09 AM

:confused: okay.......

Either way, 6th Rounder turned into a 3rd rounder is SWEET! Big C has done a good job in my book. We could have gotten NOTHING for him. If no one offered him a contract he would have gone into the draft. BUT, we got a 3rd ROUND PICK! That is awesome.

nWo34Life

03-14-2004, 10:57 AM

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/031404dnspocowlede.3d6d6.html

Despite long layoff, club hopes former Michigan signal-caller worth the risk

There is not much of a body of work to judge Drew Henson as a quarterback. He started only eight games for the University of Michigan, one less than Maurice Clarett had at Ohio State.

But the Cowboys are hoping the three years away from football did not erode the skills that some NFL scouts say would have made Henson a sure-fire top-five pick in 2002.

In front of 20 teams last month at the Houston Texans' practice facility, Henson displayed the ability to make all the throws and showed good athletic ability for a 6-5, 223-pound quarterback.

The Cowboys are poised to acquire Henson, Houston's sixth-round pick last year, in a trade with the Texans for a third-round pick in 2005. They have agreed on an eight-year contract that guarantees Henson at least $3.5 million. If Henson turns out to be the quarterback the Cowboys have been searching for since Troy Aikman retired, then it was a gamble worth taking.

"The thing that intrigued everybody was his arm and the athletic ability for his size," said one general manager of a team that had interest in Henson. "For all the physical stuff, it's a positive. The biggest question is his lack of experience and does he have the quarterback savvy? You won't know that until he plays."

Henson hasn't played a game since he led Michigan to a 31-28 win over Auburn in the 2001 Citrus Bowl. He completed 15-of-20 passes for 294 yards and two touchdowns, including a 31-yarder to David Terrell, who would become a first-round pick of the Chicago Bears.

His best game arguably came in a 54-51 loss to Northwestern when he completed 23-of-35 passes for 312 yards with four touchdowns and no interceptions. Against Michigan's most-heated rival, Ohio State, he completed 14-of-25 passes for 303 yards and three touchdowns. He also ran for a score in the 38-26 Wolverines' victory.

Since giving up baseball Henson has spent the majority of his time in Bradenton, Fla., working with former NFL coach Larry Kennan. A 15-year veteran of the league, Kennan believes Henson would be able to play right away even with the layoff.

"To me, it's not that big of a deal," said Kennan, who is the head of the NFL Coaches' Association. "Part of getting him early is that you will have him for two or three months before camp starts. How is he going to react when he sees something in a game? The same way he reacted like he's always done."

In addition to the Cowboys, Henson worked out for Cleveland and St. Louis. One team that met with Henson privately came away impressed with his football acumen. In his Valley Ranch workout, Henson threw passes to wide receivers Cedric James, Zuriel Smith and Antonio Bryant as Jerry Jones, Stephen Jones, Bill Parcells, Maurice Carthon and others, including Aikman, watched.

Henson is considered fundamentally sound, but he sometimes drops his elbow, which causes the ball to float on him.

"He has a tendency to wind up at times," the general manager said, "but you can tell he's been working on his mechanics."

Once he becomes a Cowboy, he'll get to work on his mechanics some more and pursue a sport that never really left him.

"It just basically came down to I missed football a lot more than I ever thought I would," Henson said after his workout last month. "When you play the quarterback position, you're a leader; you're involved in every play, and I missed that. It's not that I necessarily took that for granted, but it is something that I missed, and I'm interested in getting back to that."

Jebus

03-14-2004, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by Fegwu
Why?

I fell in love with Henson's game when he was in Michigan. I have always rooted for him even when he was in the Yankees farm system. Before now I have never really liked the cowboys - but last years the acquired Bill Parcells and now one of my favorite players. So are you saying I should stop rooting for Henson because of this?

I see your point but it does not fly.

There's a difference between rooting for Henson and rooting for the cowboys.

I rooted for Hakeem to do well in Toronto, but I didn't give a damn about the raptors.

Rocket Fan

03-14-2004, 12:51 PM

drewp.. true he isn't a genius.. but he's smarter than all the teams with qb needs who didn't take a chance on henson

Fegwu

03-14-2004, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by Jebus
There's a difference between rooting for Henson and rooting for the cowboys.

I rooted for Hakeem to do well in Toronto, but I didn't give a damn about the raptors.

I does not make sense to me to root just for a player because IMHO any players success is not mutual exclussive from his/her team's. Critical thinking tells me that if Henson succeeds - the cowboys will benefit from it. But I will still prefer we beat them in head-to-head match ups in the super bowl or regular season.

Hippieloser

03-14-2004, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by DrewP
Although it was a good move, maybe you should get off your knees until we see what this third round pick produces.

All is has to produce is more than nothing, which is exactly what most teams believed drafting Henson would produce. It wasn't genius, but it was a gamble that payed off. CLICKETY-CLACK! SEVEN!

leroy420

03-14-2004, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by DrewP
Ok, well, note to texans fans... drafting henson with a 6th round pick doesnt make casserly the god you think he is. It was a good move, but hes not a genius because of it. Henson told teams specifically NOT to draft him. Casserly just ignored this and took a risk on a pick ( the 6th rounder) that was worth very little. Although it was a good move, maybe you should get off your knees until we see what this third round pick produces.

Yeah, because drafting a junior QB in the 2nd round who was going to be benched his senior year for a true freshman was a good idea, too.

DrewP

03-14-2004, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by leroy420
Yeah, because drafting a junior QB in the 2nd round who was going to be benched his senior year for a true freshman was a good idea, too.
I have no interest in going tit for tat on the work of the two franchises GMs, so save it. I hate Jerry Jones, so why not try something that we dont agree on?

Raven Lunatic

03-14-2004, 08:57 PM

19-10

:)

Buck88

03-15-2004, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by Raven Lunatic
19-10

I agree!

Harrisment

03-15-2004, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by Raven Lunatic
19-10

:)

That's about all there is to say.

chievous minniefield

03-15-2004, 12:28 PM

when the biggest thing your franchise has achieved in its "history" is a win over the team whose penis it most envies, that really is all that needs to be said.

somehow I imagine that, once you've appeared in 8 super bowls and won 5, we won't be hearing so much about "19-10".

you are the Boston Red Sox.

accept it.

seriously, though, it's cute. "19-10! 19-10!"

JayZ750

03-15-2004, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by chievous minniefield
somehow I imagine that, once you've appeared in 8 super bowls and won 5, we won't be hearing so much about "19-10".

Nope, you'll still hear about it, because it was pathetic. It just as funt o remind someone else how pathetic they were as it is to remind them how great you are/were - at least that's what I've found.

mrpaige

03-15-2004, 01:31 PM

Man, the Texans are a failure if they haven't been to eight Super Bowls in their two years of existence. If only the Texans could've shown the greatness that the Cowboys showed in their first two years.

chievous minniefield

03-15-2004, 01:54 PM

19-10!
19-10!

chievous minniefield

03-15-2004, 01:55 PM

NOMAH!!!

Buck88

03-15-2004, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by mrpaige
Man, the Texans are a failure if they haven't been to eight Super Bowls in their two years of existence. If only the Texans could've shown the greatness that the Cowboys showed in their first two years.

I'm telling ya! I'm starting to come around here. The Texans should have been to at least 4 Super Bowls by now. I mean think about it, that's only half as many as the Cowboys...they should have accomplished that by now. And I don't want to hear any excuses about only being in existence for 2 years. Get with it Texans. I want 4 Super Bowls appearances by next season...GOT IT!!!!

chievous minniefield

03-15-2004, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by mrpaige
Man, the Texans are a failure if they haven't been to eight Super Bowls in their two years of existence. If only the Texans could've shown the greatness that the Cowboys showed in their first two years.

all trash talk aside, what you're basically saying, then, is that it is unfair to compare the two teams. and that's sort of the point I was making.

never before has one game meant so much to one side and so little to the other.

but hey. . . 19-10! Nomah!

DrewP

03-15-2004, 02:07 PM

It seems everytime a Texan fan gets into this they say things like "Don't live in the past." Ok, lets not go back to the 90's, lets go back to the most recent example we can take

Last year:

Cowboys: Playoffs

Texans: Not even close to playoffs.

19-10 !
Remember the Alamo!

Yao Wink

03-15-2004, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by chievous minniefield

never before has one game meant so much to one side and so little to the other.

How could opening night on National TV for the Cowboys facing the new state rival not mean a lot to the Cowboys? While the 'Boys were facing an expansion team, I am sure there was extra motivation for Dallas to hand Houston its first regular season loss and for Dallas to begin the season with a 'W' in a game that the Cowboys should have won.

Yeah it meant a lot for the Texans, but to say that the opening game meant little to a professional football team would put into question the goals of the team.

chievous minniefield

03-15-2004, 02:19 PM

I was really talking more about the fans.

I wasn't trying to suggest that the Cowboys weren't trying to win the game.

MadMax

03-15-2004, 02:20 PM

Drew --

come on...it was the Texans first game in franchise history. people were saying they would only win 1-2 games all season long, and it CERTAINLY wouldn't be their first real game together, ever. it was a celebration of the return of the NFL to Houston...I was at the game, and lost my voice after the first offensive series. from a Houston fan's perspective, it was one of the greatest sports moments of my life. and a big part of that was because it was against the cowboys. that's how it goes. you will ALWAYS hear about 19-10...and the good news is that the outcome helps to build the rivalry.

Master Baiter

03-15-2004, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by chievous minniefield
I was really talking more about the fans.

I wasn't trying to suggest that the Cowboys weren't trying to win the game.
So even when they try they still suck?

chievous minniefield

03-15-2004, 02:23 PM

right. exactly. good point. is your middle name "de"?

there are battles Houston sports fans should try to fight, and the professional football battle with the Dallas Cowboys isn't one of them.

I'm sure that, at some point, the Clippers have probably gotten a game from the Lakers, too.

honestly, as someone who grew up mostly in Houston, the incessant 19-10'ing just makes the town and its fans look kind of pathetic.

when 19-10 is what you have to hang your hat on, you don't have much to hang your hat on.

give it time, nephew.

mrpaige

03-15-2004, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by DrewP
Cowboys: Playoffs

Texans: Not even close to playoffs.

19-10 !
Remember the Alamo!

Of course, it took more than two seasons to build up this playoff team. They were 5-11 in the 2002 season (and 2001, and 2000). Seems to me that if the Texans make the playoffs for the 2005 season, their recent history would pretty well match that of the Cowboys.

mrpaige

03-15-2004, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by chievous minniefield
all trash talk aside, what you're basically saying, then, is that it is unfair to compare the two teams. and that's sort of the point I was making.

I do think it's impossible to compare two teams that don't have similar starting points, which is actually what made the 19-10 game so meaningful. The Texans couldn't compare to the Cowboys. They shouldn't have been able to compare to the Cowboys even on that day, but they did.

I've heard stories about people who watched the Cowboys in 1960. That team didn't win a single game. The closest they came was a tie, but that tie game vs. the Giants in the next to the last game of the season meant a lot to the fans of the young team.

If the Cowboys had held on to beat the Steelers in that first game in 1960, it likely would've sustained a lot of the fans for years. And had the Internet existed at the time, you can bet that Cowboys fans would've been all over Steelers fans about it.

Personally, I'm hoping the Texans don't match the early record of the Cowboys. I would consider it a failure if it took the Texans six seasons to post a winning record. I'm hoping it isn't even as long as it took the Cowboys to get back to a winning record the last time around (they went 8-8, 5-11, 5-11, 5-11 following their last playoff appearance prior to the 2003 season, and that last winning record prior to 2003 was immediately after a 6-10 season).

VesceySux

03-15-2004, 02:35 PM

So, what, the Texans-Cowboys game is not relevant now? Fine, I'll hang my hat on this:

Dallas Cowboys' first 2 years of existence:

1960: 0-11-1
1961: 4-9-1

14.3% win average

Houston Texans' first 2 years of existence:

2002: 4-12
2003: 5-11

35.2% win average

19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10!

:)

mrpaige

03-15-2004, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by chievous minniefield
never before has one game meant so much to one side and so little to the other.

It obviously means something to you or it wouldn't bother you so much to hear it mentioned so often. You'd just ignore it instead of trying so hard to convince everyone that you don't care anything about it and trying to defend the Cowboys. If it's obvious that that game is so unimportant, then it would go without saying.

chievous minniefield

03-15-2004, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by mrpaige
I do think it's impossible to compare two teams that don't have similar starting points, which is actually what made the 19-10 game so meaningful. The Texans couldn't compare to the Cowboys. They shouldn't have been able to compare to the Cowboys even on that day, but they did.

I've heard stories about people who watched the Cowboys in 1960. That team didn't win a single game. The closest they came was a tie, but that tie game vs. the Giants in the next to the last game of the season meant a lot to the fans of the young team.

If the Cowboys had held on to beat the Steelers in that first game in 1960, it likely would've sustained a lot of the fans for years. And had the Internet existed at the time, you can bet that Cowboys fans would've been all over Steelers fans about it.

Personally, I'm hoping the Texans don't match the early record of the Cowboys. I would consider it a failure if it took the Texans six seasons to post a winning record. I'm hoping it isn't even as long as it took the Cowboys to get back to a winning record the last time around (they went 8-8, 5-11, 5-11, 5-11 following their last playoff appearance prior to the 2003 season, and that last winning record prior to 2003 was immediately after a 6-10 season).

fair enough. I hope rooting for the Texans gives you as much joy as rooting for the Cowboys has given me.

and in fairness, it took those Cowboys that long because it wasn't the free agency, and they were competing against a much smaller talent pool. but that's a whole other discussion.

chievous minniefield

03-15-2004, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by VesceySux
So, what, the Texans-Cowboys game is not relevant now? Fine, I'll hang my hat on this:

Dallas Cowboys' first 2 years of existence:

1960: 0-11-1
1961: 4-9-1

14.3% win average

Houston Texans' first 2 years of existence:

2002: 4-12
2003: 5-11

35.2% win average

19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10! 19-10!

:)

I vote Vescey's smack better than the 19-10 smack.

Go Yankees!

chievous minniefield

03-15-2004, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by mrpaige
It obviously means something to you or it wouldn't bother you so much to hear it mentioned so often. You'd just ignore it instead of trying so hard to convince everyone that you don't care anything about it and trying to defend the Cowboys. If it's obvious that that game is so unimportant, then it would go without saying.

that it means enough to me to talk about it doesn't exactly extend to the rest of the entire Cowboys nation.

it bugs me because I'm essentially from Houston [though I was born in Dallas]. it's like having an embarrassingly loud uncle.

but I realize that there's nothing else Texans fans can say [aside from what Vescey].

as of this very moment, I'm content with the entire thing. :)

mrpaige

03-15-2004, 02:46 PM

I really think it's hard to compare any of the past with today. Even the early 1990s were different in terms of how teams were built and what they could and couldn't do in terms of attaining and retaining players.

Or, even trying to compare the Cowboys rebuilding from that Super Bowl run vs. the Texans trying to build from scratch is difficult. There are many advantages to having an ongoing team that an expansion team does not have. And there are probably a couple of advantages that an expansion team has that an ongoing team doesn't (the Texans would not have had some of the salary cap issues that the Cowboys have had in recent years. Though the Cowboys seem to be past that now. The Texans started out with the 1st overall pick, the Cowboys have not been bad enough in recent years to pick that high, etc.)

Now, one could probably compare the Oilers history with that of the Cowboys. The Oilers came into existence at the same time as the Cowboys, and even though they were in different leagues originally, it didn't stay that way for long. Certainly the Cowboys far outperformed the Oilers.

mrpaige

03-15-2004, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by chievous minniefield
it bugs me because I'm essentially from Houston [though I was born in Dallas]. it's like having an embarrassingly loud uncle.

I live in Dallas, and there's almost nothing worse than the smug Cowboy fan around here, so anything that can be used to take them down a peg is worth it. :)

It's just always weird to have people try to prove the worth of the current team based on things that happened thirty or more years ago. To me, I don't particularly care whether the Cowboys won the Super Bowl after the 1971 season. I was six months old at that point. Just like those two AFL Championships the Oilers won never meant anything to me, not because they were just AFL championships, but because they happened years before I was born.

The fun of championships to me is the games that I watched and memories I make while watching them. I can look back on those games and remember the good time it was (or the heartbreak at times my teams didn't quite make it).

It has died down in recent years, but there was always this air of superiority spewing from Cowboys fans. I'll never forget listening to the radio in 1997, during a 6-10 Cowboys campaign and hearing the callers talk about how the Cowboys were still going to make the playoffs (seriously, even at 6-9, there would be callers talking about how the math could work to allow the Cowboys to make the playoffs) and that other teams didn't have a chance against them (including the Oilers). And invariably, whenever someone would talk about the weaknesses in that 1997 team, the Cowboy fan would bark about the five Lombardi Trophies and eight Super Bowl appearances as if it made any difference to that team competing that week.

I don't have a problem with Cowboys fans enjoying current success, and I don't have a problem with them enjoying their memories of their past success. But that past really is irrelevant to today (as is 19-10, though we can obviously enjoy that success. I don't think people really consider 19-10 to be relevant to what's happening with the Texans today).

Rileydog

03-15-2004, 03:48 PM

back to the original topic: CC made a good move, but let's not call it brilliant.

the 6th rounder last year is worth a 5th rounder this year and a 4th rounder in 2005. So basically he moved up a spot, which is commendable, but hardly the deal of the century.

CC has been a good GM. No doubt. But let's not lost perspective. And the Hollings thing is yet to be determined. The only move that I have questions about is the 3rd round pick of Ragone.

MadMax

03-15-2004, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Rileydog

the 6th rounder last year is worth a 5th rounder this year and a 4th rounder in 2005. So basically he moved up a spot, which is commendable, but hardly the deal of the century.

what??? you're gonna have to explain this one to me, because i dont get it.

codell

03-15-2004, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by MadMax
what??? you're gonna have to explain this one to me, because i dont get it.

Fuzzy Math

Master Baiter

03-15-2004, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by codell
Fuzzy Math
We need to put that guy in a lockbox.

mrpaige

03-15-2004, 04:01 PM

I knew there was a time value of money, but I didn't realize there was a time value of draft picks.

All in all, the Henson trade's success will depend on who the Texans get with that pick vs. who they could've gotten with the 6th rounder two years ago if they hadn't picked Henson.

VesceySux

03-15-2004, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by chievous minniefield
I vote Vescey's smack better than the 19-10 smack.

Go Yankees!

LOL.

Off topic! That reminds me: I actually bought seasons 1 & 2 of Sifl & Olly from ebay a while back (14 CDs of goodness). Email me if you're interested...

chievous minniefield

03-15-2004, 05:11 PM

dude. . .

BUY MY CIVIL WAR CORPSES!!

you bet your sweet bippy I'm still interested. I can't believe you remembered.

I will definitely e-mail you.

it takes 14 cds to store seasons 1 & 2 of sifl & olly? that doesn't seem right. . .

SUCKER!!!

MadMax

03-15-2004, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by VesceySux
LOL.

Off topic! That reminds me: I actually bought seasons 1 & 2 of Sifl & Olly from ebay a while back (14 CDs of goodness). Email me if you're interested...
oh my gosh, are you freaking kidding me??? sifl & olly was one of the greatest television programs in the history of the television programs!! i didn't know you could buy seasons!!!!

Raven Lunatic

03-16-2004, 03:21 AM

For the record, I don't believe that the 19-10 game is the be all end all of accomplishments...but in this team's young history, it is probably my favorite of accomplishments since I have always disliked the Cowboys. I posted the 19-10 because Cowboys fans get irate over it, and it amused me that DrewP was getting so irate over Texans fans being happy that Casserly made a shrewd deal in the Henson situation. Both are pretty pointless things to get upset over.

VesceySux

03-16-2004, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by MadMax
oh my gosh, are you freaking kidding me??? sifl & olly was one of the greatest television programs in the history of the television programs!! i didn't know you could buy seasons!!!!

MadMax, ebay is a strange and wonderful place. For instance, check this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4002429048&category=201) out...

By the way, you CAN buy the "lost" Season 3 DVD of S&O online (http://www.sifl-n-olly.com/merch/index.html#dvdform) (unless you have some serious ass buying online problems). However, Seasons 1 & 2 are not available.

(Sorry for hijacking this thread. I'll stop now.)

chievous minniefield

03-16-2004, 08:36 AM

hey, VS.

I sent you an e-mail. did you get it?

screw this thread, anyway. :)

DrewP

03-16-2004, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by Raven Lunatic
For the record, I don't believe that the 19-10 game is the be all end all of accomplishments...but in this team's young history, it is probably my favorite of accomplishments since I have always disliked the Cowboys. I posted the 19-10 because Cowboys fans get irate over it, and it amused me that DrewP was getting so irate over Texans fans being happy that Casserly made a shrewd deal in the Henson situation. Both are pretty pointless things to get upset over.

It's not that it upset me, it just seems so pathetic. Texans fans being all over casserly's dick for this draft pick thing and the whole 19-10 thing is like stupid cowboy fans discussing playoffs at 6-9...... Somebody needed to say something along the lines of ,"Wait, casserly is not a genius."

Nothing to go to blows over.

Rocket Fan

03-16-2004, 11:16 AM

fine can we call him a genius for getting davis where he got him :D

Groogrux

03-16-2004, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by DrewP
It's not that it upset me, it just seems so pathetic. Texans fans being all over casserly's dick for this draft pick thing and the whole 19-10 thing is like stupid cowboy fans discussing playoffs at 6-9...... Somebody needed to say something along the lines of ,"Wait, casserly is not a genius."

Nothing to go to blows over.

I know Cowboys' fans aren't the brightest in the bunch, but you do realize that the Texans' have only played two seasons, right?

Rocket Fan

03-16-2004, 11:17 AM

fine can we call him a genius for getting davis where he got him :D

I'm not saying he's a genius for drafting henson.. just a lot smarter than the gms who need qbs and didn't spend a 5th or 6th rounder on him

chievous minniefield

03-16-2004, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by Rocketman95
I know Cowboys' fans aren't the brightest in the bunch, but you do realize that the Texans' have only played two seasons, right?

fire Mack Brown!

buy my civil war corpses!

of course we all know they've only played two seasons.

that's what makes them irrelevant. :)

Groogrux

03-16-2004, 11:22 AM

My point is, when a team is that young, you have to find certain things to hang your hat on until you start winning consistently. Right now, the #1 thing for Texans' fan is 19-10. Would be for any other team in the same situation.

Rocket Fan

03-16-2004, 11:26 AM

and if the cowboys had won that game.. we'd have heard plenty of people saying.. "we own houston" and "that's the first loss of millions to come to the cowboys" etc.. there would have been cowboy fans rubbing that in.. the fact that our first loss was to them

leroy420

03-16-2004, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by mrpaige
I live in Dallas, and there's almost nothing worse than the smug Cowboy fan around here, so anything that can be used to take them down a peg is worth it...

It has died down in recent years, but there was always this air of superiority spewing from Cowboys fans. I'll never forget listening to the radio in 1997, during a 6-10 Cowboys campaign and hearing the callers talk about how the Cowboys were still going to make the playoffs (seriously, even at 6-9, there would be callers talking about how the math could work to allow the Cowboys to make the playoffs) and that other teams didn't have a chance against them (including the Oilers). And invariably, whenever someone would talk about the weaknesses in that 1997 team, the Cowboy fan would bark about the five Lombardi Trophies and eight Super Bowl appearances as if it made any difference to that team competing that week.

Every reason that I, too, can't stand Cowboy fans. I actually remember their fans talking back in 1988 (or was it 89) when they were 1-15 about how good they were.

Desert Scar

03-16-2004, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
and if the cowboys had won that game.. we'd have heard plenty of people saying.. "we own houston" ....

Not true for 99% of Cowboys fans. Most Cowboys fans I know used to route for the Oilers if they were not playing the Cowboys. Didn't always work the other way despite the Cowboys never beating the Oilers ever in a meanginful game worthy of a ture grudge.

I don't get the bragging from the game two years ago either. Didn't the Cowboys finish like 5-11 that year, two below par teams going at it, so what. Anti-Cowboys fans, non-neccessarily pro-Texan fans, were the one's making the biggest deal about it.

I am just glad the Boys are back in the playoffs and have great top leadership, I'd liek to see the Texas join them by making the playoffs.

Rocket Fan

03-16-2004, 01:05 PM

desert.. if the cowboys beat the texans in that game.. you don't think they would have been rubbing it in..? they were calling shows bragging about preseason games and acting like it was comparable to a regular season victory last year.

Rileydog

03-16-2004, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by Master Baiter
We need to put that guy in a lockbox.

Lemme out!

Seriously, as an example, teams that want a 3rd round pick this year for a draft pick next year generally have to give up a 2nd rounder. Basically, you have to give up a higher pick in a future year to get a pick this year.

As such, we had last year's 6th round pick. We probably could have traded it to another team for that team's 5th round pick this year. And so on. That's the fuzzy math. It just happens to be pretty universally accepted thinking.

MadMax

03-16-2004, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by Rileydog
Lemme out!

Seriously, as an example, teams that want a 3rd round pick this year for a draft pick next year generally have to give up a 2nd rounder. Basically, you have to give up a higher pick in a future year to get a pick this year.

As such, we had last year's 6th round pick. We probably could have traded it to another team for that team's 5th round pick this year. And so on. That's the fuzzy math. It just happens to be pretty universally accepted thinking.

i just disagree with the assertion that we could have merely traded a 6th round pick that year for a 5th round pick...in the abstract. i don't see any team doing that, given the relative worth of a 6th round pick.

bottom line is they took a pick from a round where very few players every contribute from and turned it into a pick from a round where they can actually get a regular contributor. something from virtually nothing.

Rileydog

03-16-2004, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by MadMax
i just disagree with the assertion that we could have merely traded a 6th round pick that year for a 5th round pick...in the abstract. i don't see any team doing that, given the relative worth of a 6th round pick.

bottom line is they took a pick from a round where very few players every contribute from and turned it into a pick from a round where they can actually get a regular contributor. something from virtually nothing.

As to the first point, I've never understood it myself, I just know it happens. Some GM's can't wait so they trade a first rounder next year for a 2nd rounder this year. And the GM gets criticized for doing that by some, and praised by others.

As for the bottom line, you're right, Casserly put us in a better position than we were. My only point was that this is not a blockbuster miracle trade. it was a good manuver and should be recognized as such.

MadMax

03-16-2004, 04:00 PM

riley --

i could see that with 2nd and 3rd round picks....i can't see it with 6th round picks, however. there is good relative value to a 3rd round pick...there is not good relative value for a 6th round pick. no way i'd give up next year's 5 for a freaking 6th round pick.

Supermac34

03-16-2004, 04:56 PM

OK...I always find this strange.

A TON of people I know root for both Dallas and Houston (whether it be Oilers or now, Texans).

Most people I know had a favorite if they happened to play each other, but other than that, would root for both.

My biggest dream was to have an all Texas Super Bowl.

(A dream that was close in the early 90's had the Oilers not blown it).

I probably would have rooted for Dallas in that game, but if either won...whatever.

It is the same now...I want the Cowboys and the Texans to be the best teams they can possibly be...and if they play each other, I might lean towards the Cowboys...but in all honesty, I'll probably just root for whoever has the ball.

mrpaige

03-16-2004, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by Supermac34
A TON of people I know root for both Dallas and Houston (whether it be Oilers or now, Texans).

I'm sure there are many, just like I know several people who root for both the Mavericks and the Spurs. But there are also plenty of folks who don't root for both. And there are plenty of smarmy Cowboys fans (just like there are of just about any team who's had some degree of success).

Supermac34

03-17-2004, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by mrpaige
I'm sure there are many, just like I know several people who root for both the Mavericks and the Spurs. But there are also plenty of folks who don't root for both. And there are plenty of smarmy Cowboys fans (just like there are of just about any team who's had some degree of success).

I guess you are right.

I do think that if I hated the Cowboys, or if I hated the Texans, or whatever, that I'd want them to do well if they played in a different conference. That way, if you put a good team together, you might get them in the Super Bowl.

I just want an all Texas super bowl in my lifetime.

leroy420

03-17-2004, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by Supermac34
I guess you are right.

I do think that if I hated the Cowboys, or if I hated the Texans, or whatever, that I'd want them to do well if they played in a different conference. That way, if you put a good team together, you might get them in the Super Bowl.

I just want an all Texas super bowl in my lifetime.

I wouldn't mind seeing an all Texas Super Bowl (played in Houston of course). However, I still cannot root for the Cowboys. In those years without a team in Houston, my favorite team was WHOEVER IS PLAYING THE COWBOYS. I didnt' care who it was, and still don't. It's just one of those things. I don't like the Cowboys. I never will. I was so disappointed when they won the 1 game they won to avoid going 0-16. To me, the perfect season would be a 19-0 Texans team (that includes the playoffs) AND an 0-16 Cowboys team. Yes, there are some that can root for both teams. I simply am not one of them.

MadMax

03-17-2004, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by leroy420
I wouldn't mind seeing an all Texas Super Bowl (played in Houston of course). However, I still cannot root for the Cowboys. In those years without a team in Houston, my favorite team was WHOEVER IS PLAYING THE COWBOYS. I didnt' care who it was, and still don't. It's just one of those things. I don't like the Cowboys. I never will. I was so disappointed when they won the 1 game they won to avoid going 0-16. To me, the perfect season would be a 19-0 Texans team (that includes the playoffs) AND an 0-16 Cowboys team. Yes, there are some that can root for both teams. I simply am not one of them.
you have a lot of company, leroy! :)

DrewP

03-17-2004, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by Rocketman95
I know Cowboys' fans aren't the brightest in the bunch, but you do realize that the Texans' have only played two seasons, right?
Yes, I do know that, and I dont understand what your problem is here.

Originally posted by Supermac34
A TON of people I know root for both Dallas and Houston (whether it be Oilers or now, Texans).

When I was younger I rooted for the Oilers... they were just in a way my AFC team.... I started out rooting for the Texans too. I was all into the expansion draft (even taped it) and checked the paper everyday for updates. When the Texans beat the Cowboys, I was a little upset, but I didnt really get THAT upset until the next day when I talked to people and read about it. Most Texans fans were such douchebags about it all that it turned me off from the whole group. Im not putting all texans fans into this group because that would be like putting all the dumb hick Cowboy fans and normal Cowboy fans into the same group.... the needless hatred was just ridiculous and it turned me off to the whole franchise.