Billy Wagner: What an a-hole

[codell]

Im really starting to dislike Wanger. He just needs to let it go.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/2434307

"I'm not a big fan of Drayton's, but I'm happy for Roger and Andy. It's every kid's dream to play at home. I'm also happy Baggy and those guys have some pitching. Maybe if they'd gone out and gotten us a pitcher last season, things would have ended differently."

:rolleyes:


"After the trade, he called me and said, `I'm going to miss your pitching for us, but what I'm really going to miss is watching you and your little boy there in the clubhouse.' I know Jimy well enough to know that's exactly how he feels. If I had a chance to pitch for him again sometime down the road, I'd do it. I'd take a pay cut to pitch for him."

Really Billy??? Didn't hear you offering to cut your salary so we could bring in extra starting pitching last year.

"I've always said I'd like to pitch in St. Louis. It's a great baseball town. I don't know Philly. My feelings could change. Pitching in St. Louis would be a good way to come back and stick it to the Astros."

Ok, this does it for me. Wags is just an asshole.

[SwoLy-D]

DITTO, codell.

The guys in SportsRadio 610 would call his comments a "francis". They say this is a new verb in the dictionary:
francis: (v.) to say something before you think about how silly or stupid it may sound, esp. in the sports industry.

BTW, i am back after a long hiatus! GO ROX!

[Buck Turgidson]

You're just now figuring this out?

Million dollar arm, $.05 head.

[SwoLy-D]

Originally posted by Buck Turgidson
You're just now figuring this out?

Million dollar arm, $.05 head. LOL
Of course not, but we only get to hear "great" :rolleyes: comments like these when his trap opens.

[codell]

The article is right, in that BIlly was no doubt, a fan favorite.

Yet, Billy is starting to assure himself of a good booing every time he starts back up on Drayton and the Astros.

He says hes happy for Bags and everyone else, yet he says he wants to go to St. Louis so he can stick it to us. Gee, how would that make his former teamates feel???

[MadMax]

billy wagner was one of my favorite astros...but he stuck his foot in his mouth so many times last season, that diminished really quickly. this guy just flat out comes off like an idiot.

[JayZ750]

regardless of how dominant he was, he folded in the playoffs, when it really counted.

In a jam in a really important game...pitching staff got your bases all loaded up, try Billy Wagner, good for a grand slam on pitch number one.

[FLAGRANT1]

I'm a big Astros fan .............but everything he said was true and he is entitled to be a little bit bitter. How many of you were wondering 'Why aren't we adding an arm ?' last season all the way up to the trading deadline?

I wish the man well.

[MadMax]

yeah...he's entitled to be bitter against an owner who coddled him and made him a millionaire more than a few times over...

whom he has trashed in the media...

and to an owner who has responded with nothing but kind words for billy after the fact...

ridiculous. people get traded all the freaking time. players move on to new teams all the freaking time. he wrote his ticket out of town when he complained left and right and then walked into the locker room on the last day of the season saying "goodbyes." he's a relief pitcher getting paid $8 million/season when we have a reasonable substitute who gets paid a lot less. without his loss the astros likely don't sign pettite or clemens.

if wagner had offered a pay cut to get in a new starter, i'd understand his opinions...but his words remain empty. tell him to complain in philly...he'll have lots of company there.

[SamCassell]

To be fair, Wagner could not have offered to tear up his existing contract and take a pay cut. The MLB Player's Association would never allow that. I don't understand why he's taking this so personal, but then again this was the first time he's been traded so I guess he's just being reactionary. He makes elite closer money, and as such shouldn't be surprised when he gets traded when we've got a much cheaper alternative in Dotel who's almost as good. The man needs to move on already.

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally posted by FLAGRANT1
...everything he said was true and he is entitled to be a little bit bitter. How many of you were wondering 'Why aren't we adding an arm ?' last season all the way up to the trading deadline?
Who???

Would you have given up Chris Burke for 2 mo. of Jeff Suppan? The BoSox got him for Freddy Sanchez (their top high-level mid infield prospect).
What 2 young starting pitchers would you have traded for 2 mo. of Sid Ponson? The Giants gave up Damian Moss & Kurt Ainsworth.

Kris Benson & Ismael Valdes, 2 pitchers thought to be available, went on the DL 2-3 days before the trading deadline. Who else was out on the market?

These things don't occur in a vacuum, you have to look at context.

[pgabriel]

Originally posted by SamCassell
To be fair, Wagner could not have offered to tear up his existing contract and take a pay cut.

Doesn't Wagner have a new contract?

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally posted by pgabriel
Doesn't Wagner have a new contract?
He's a FA after this year, I believe.

[rrj_gamz]

That is sad as I really liked BW...His comments are just him acting like a little baby...

[MoBalls]

Damnit Billy! Get over it :mad:

[A-Train]

Hopefully, the stadium PA guy will still play "Enter Sandman"...

[deepellumrocket]

Originally posted by A-Train
Hopefully, the stadium PA guy will still play "Enter Sandman"...

...and then fade it into "The Hokey-Pokey" or something like that.

[whag00]

I wonder how philly fans will react to wagner knowing he would rather play for the cards and "stick it to the astros" instead of playing for a championship contender...

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally posted by whag00
I wonder how philly fans will react...
They'll wait until after his first game winning bomb...will probably be against the Braves. He'll say, "I just got beat with my best" after throwing Larry Wayne Jones 5 straight fastballs & shaking of Lieberthal's slider call before every pitch.

Duracell or Energizer? C or D cell? These are the only questions. Billy gonna luv Philly.

[mrdave543]

i dont mind what he said personally....its hard being with a team for 8 years to get traded and not get a phone call from the owner personally saying why...he prob shouldnt have said what he said in public but i bet 99% people would have thought the same thing...good luck billy

[bobrek]

Originally posted by mrdave543
i dont mind what he said personally....its hard being with a team for 8 years to get traded and not get a phone call from the owner personally saying why...he prob shouldnt have said what he said in public but i bet 99% people would have thought the same thing...good luck billy

It's probably also hard for the owner to pay millions to a player and then have that player publicly gripe about the owner.

[Lil Francis]

I don't have a problem with anyting he said. I just hope he is not serious about pitching in St Louis because that would be a nightmare from an Astros standpoint. They already have to deal with Rollen,Jimmy,and Albert then throw in Billy to close it out would be sick.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Lil Francis
I don't have a problem with anyting he said. I just hope he is not serious about pitching in St Louis because that would be a nightmare from an Astros standpoint. They already have to deal with Rollen,Jimmy,and Albert then throw in Billy to close it out would be sick.
but we'd be scoring 9 runs on their weak starting rotation, so i'm not sure he'd be getting many save appearances against the 'stros. :)

[Lil Francis]

Originally posted by MadMax
but we'd be scoring 9 runs on their weak starting rotation, so i'm not sure he'd be getting many save appearances against the 'stros. :) 9 runs may not be enough with that St Louis offense. They might have the best middle lineup in baseball. Last year it was Atlanta hands down with (Jones,Jones,Shef, and Javy).

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Lil Francis
9 runs may not be enough with that St Louis offense. They might have the best middle lineup in baseball. Last year it was Atlanta hands down with (Jones,Jones,Shef, and Javy).


the cardinals had the same lineup last season and finished 3rd...meanwhile the cubs and 'stros have made improvements from last year, and the cards have stood pat.

[Roc Paint]

You guys think Billy sounds like an idiot now, wait untill he stinks it up this year on the feild. His new nickname is going to be Billy "The Skid" mark Wagner.

[jiggadi]

Originally posted by Roc Paint
You guys think Billy sounds like an idiot now, wait untill he stinks it up this year on the feild. His new nickname is going to be Billy "The Skid" mark Wagner.

:D

[rikesh316]

Billy is just jealous and he is overpaid. This foo thinks he is the best

[Lil Francis]

Originally posted by MadMax
the cardinals had the same lineup last season and finished 3rd...meanwhile the cubs and 'stros have made improvements from last year, and the cards have stood pat. I agree that the pitching is much better than St Louis but I think the Cards offense is much better than Chicago and can go neck and neck with the Astros.

[stubbyc]

Originally posted by Buck Turgidson
He's a FA after this year, I believe.

He has an option for the 2005 season, worth 9 million or a 3 million dollar buyout.

[redgoose]

Originally posted by Lil Francis
I don't have a problem with anyting he said. I just hope he is not serious about pitching in St Louis because that would be a nightmare from an Astros standpoint. They already have to deal with Rollen,Jimmy,and Albert then throw in Billy to close it out would be sick.

I'm with you in this issue.

Everything Billy said at the times he opened his (big) mouth were the exact same thing most of us were thinking. I even agreed with the fact when he said the fans didn't know when to cheer or not at games. Anyone who's gone to baseball or basketball games in another city would probably agree.


We did have a stingy billionare owner who just kept us competitive. We were always one starting pitcher away from the postseason.

What happened to the new stadium bringing us a championship? The only thing it brought me was 8 dollar beers! We lucked out this off season only because Andy Pettite wanted to come home and made it clear. Nobody at the time knew that meant we'd get Clemens too.

But don't be suprised if you see Wade miller let go when he becomes a free agent. Now is the best chance we've had since 1998 or 99, not sure.

[mrpaige]

Originally posted by redgoose
We did have a stingy billionare owner who just kept us competitive. We were always one starting pitcher away from the postseason

No, we have a business that requires staying within the budget that the revenues dictate.

Spend more than you make, and eventually you get into trouble, especially since spending money is no guarantee of success. The Rangers have overspent for years and appear to be hopelessly mired in last place now.

The D'Backs overextended and now have $270 million in deferred salaries for players that don't even play for them anymore. Sure, they got a World Series out it, but they're potentially looking at a decade or so of last place finishes.

McLane spends essentially every dollar that comes in on the team. He's gone years where he spent more than the team brought in, and the Astros have been very successful on the field during the regular season.

Fix the revenue imbalances, and I'll guarantee the Astros spending will be near the top of the League every time, but until the team can make more money, you can't expect any owner to go have the business go into debt year after year after year.

Of course, if the Astros had added payroll, gone into debt and that player didn't perform, there'd still be bitching about Drayton being a cheapskate.

You know, if adding a pitcher is all it would've taken, I'm sure Tom Hicks would've given up Chan Ho Park. If only Drayton was more like Tom Hicks, the Astros would be hoisting the World Series trophy every year.

[JPM0016]

Originally posted by redgoose
I'm with you in this issue.


We did have a stingy billionare owner who just kept us competitive.

If you wanna talk about a stingy owner, look no further than Carl Polhard. Drayton has gone out time after time and got us a big name player, whether it's Johnson, Alou, kent or Pettitte.

Billy Wagner voiced his displeasure over Larry Dierker a few years back and now he's bitter at McLane. I say good riddance. Enjoy your time with Larry Bowa.

[Uprising]

Rediculous statement by Wags. He claimed he would take a paycut to pitch for Jimmy?! Well why didn't he do that earlier?!

[xiki]

Sorry, but his speak was OK. Why get lathered over this?

Billy Wags was a great pitcher for Houston, and represented well. For one, I wish he were still here.

[Puedlfor]

Sorry, but his speak was OK. Why get lathered over this?

Because of several things.

1) His contract negotiations(I'm an elite closer, give me elite closer money and screw the rest)
2) His then grousing about the Astros not making more moves, when the enormously overpaid self was one of the main reasons we couldn't make a move.
3) "We weren't really expected to be a contender for the playoffs, so were not too dissapointed we didn't make it" then like two days later "We were really dissapointed we didn't make a move because we were contenders" . . . . which is it Billy?
4) He gets traded, primarily because his contract vastly outstrips his value.
5) He overreacts and then takes shots back at Houston, a team which put up with his inablility to develop a second pitch, and his grousing about a big contract, acquiesced to his contract demands and put up with his inadequacies as a closer - then when they moved him - he acts like a whiny bitch.

Why is it so wrong to call a whiny bitch a whiny bitch?

[bigboymumu]

I like Wagner. I dislike Drayton.

[meh]

Originally posted by mrpaige
No, we have a business that requires staying within the budget that the revenues dictate.

Spend more than you make, and eventually you get into trouble, especially since spending money is no guarantee of success. The Rangers have overspent for years and appear to be hopelessly mired in last place now.

The D'Backs overextended and now have $270 million in deferred salaries for players that don't even play for them anymore. Sure, they got a World Series out it, but they're potentially looking at a decade or so of last place finishes.

McLane spends essentially every dollar that comes in on the team. He's gone years where he spent more than the team brought in, and the Astros have been very successful on the field during the regular season.

Fix the revenue imbalances, and I'll guarantee the Astros spending will be near the top of the League every time, but until the team can make more money, you can't expect any owner to go have the business go into debt year after year after year.

Of course, if the Astros had added payroll, gone into debt and that player didn't perform, there'd still be bitching about Drayton being a cheapskate.

You know, if adding a pitcher is all it would've taken, I'm sure Tom Hicks would've given up Chan Ho Park. If only Drayton was more like Tom Hicks, the Astros would be hoisting the World Series trophy every year.

Since baseball owners never open their books to show fans how much they're really making(or losing), it's hard to take their whinings without a grain of salt.

What I'm seeing is that baseball franchises' worth have risen year after year. I see people buying teams at higher and higher prices. I see many, many new stadiums being built by tax payers' money only to see the revenues generated going into these owners' pocketbooks. Let's face it, MLB is a VERY PROFITABLE business. No matter what Bud Selig says.

I'm not saying that owners aren't allowed to make profits. It's their team, after all. But just don't cry poor while raking things in. It's one thing for McLane to be fiscally tight back in the Astrodome, but DEFINITELY not now at Minute Maid Park.

[xiki]

Originally posted by Puedlfor
Because of several things.

1) His contract negotiations(I'm an elite closer, give me elite closer money and screw the rest)
2) His then grousing about the Astros not making more moves, when the enormously overpaid self was one of the main reasons we couldn't make a move.
3) "We weren't really expected to be a contender for the playoffs, so were not too dissapointed we didn't make it" then like two days later "We were really dissapointed we didn't make a move because we were contenders" . . . . which is it Billy?
4) He gets traded, primarily because his contract vastly outstrips his value.
5) He overreacts and then takes shots back at Houston, a team which put up with his inablility to develop a second pitch, and his grousing about a big contract, acquiesced to his contract demands and put up with his inadequacies as a closer - then when they moved him - he acts like a whiny bitch.

Why is it so wrong to call a whiny bitch a whiny bitch?

I guess we respectfully disagree about most of this.

Wags has been an elite closer and his comments at the end of the season were spot on, IMO.

Is he overpaid? It seems his performance was elite status so based on baseball economics he should have been compensated very well, and was.

I would take a team of 25 guys who performed at his relative level, and with his end of tenure comments.

[mrpaige]

Originally posted by meh
I'm not saying that owners aren't allowed to make profits. It's their team, after all. But just don't cry poor while raking things in. It's one thing for McLane to be fiscally tight back in the Astrodome, but DEFINITELY not now at Minute Maid Park.

But he's not being fiscally tight. Based on all the public information available about how much the team makes coupled with educated guesses made by those who know, the Astros spend what they make.

Absent official numbers, I'm willing to trust that Forbes numbers are pretty close to reality. And they estimate that the Astros routinely spend pretty close to what they make. You talk about Drayton whining, but he doesn't. He doesn't cry poverty. He sets a budget and sticks to it. The fans whine about him not spending enough money, and he may defend himself from that. But the whiners in this situation (since the new stadium at least) are the fans who pull numbers out of the air think those are the real numbers. "They've got to be making big money. I just feel it. Everyone who's in the know disputes that, but I know different."

It's always interesting to me that Forbes, who spends time and effort investigating these things to make their best guess on revenues and expenses, etc. are not trusted at all to go with the gut feeling most people have that the Astros (and other teams) make significantly more money than they claim.

As for the ever-increasing values of teams. That does have a potential end. Not to mention that to make fans happy, the Astros would potentially have to add another $15 million to $30 million in payroll per year. Franchise values usually aren't increasing that quickly. Drayton got in long enough ago that the price he paid was relatively low, and the new stadium does add value to the team. But it's still ridiculous to require an owner to take losses every year on the hope that they'll make that money back when they sell the team at some far-off future date.

Especially since there's no guarantee that the team will be any better even with an additional $15 million in payroll.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by bigboymumu
I like Wagner. I dislike Drayton.

Then go root for the Phillies.

[Rocket Fan]

I think I'd rather have 1 world series and 9 bad seasons than have 10 "competitive seasons" where we don't win anything that matters

the rockets won their last title in 94-95 and haven't done anything of note in the last 9 years, but looking back I would definitely consider the last 10 years more successful than the astros because they at least accomplished the goal once..

1 world series.. and 9 last places.. at least you accomplished the goal once...

10 division titles and no champs.. as far as I'm concerned you didn't accomplish the one thing that matters

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Lil Francis
I agree that the pitching is much better than St Louis but I think the Cards offense is much better than Chicago and can go neck and neck with the Astros.

i disagree...teams with great offenses and limited starting pitching don't keep up with teams with rotations like the astros and the cubs.

ask the rangers...they've been trying it for years now.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
I think I'd rather have 1 world series and 9 bad seasons than have 10 "competitive seasons" where we don't win anything that matters

the rockets won their last title in 94-95 and haven't done anything of note in the last 9 years, but looking back I would definitely consider the last 10 years more successful than the astros because they at least accomplished the goal once..

1 world series.. and 9 last places.. at least you accomplished the goal once...

10 division titles and no champs.. as far as I'm concerned you didn't accomplish the one thing that matters

wow..i disagree entirely...i would LOVE LOVE LOVE for the Astros to win a World Series. i think that would be a pinnacle sports moment for me.

but i hated 2000, when the astros were never in the race...makes for a very long summer. i'd much rather have a good race down the stretch and come up short than i would win one title and not have a competitve season for another decade.

[MadMax]

man, this is the wrong offseason to be whining about drayton...knowing your audience and the context is a good thing.

[Rocket Fan]

I guess last place is a stong statement... it's just frustarting to look at houston sports and basically the only thing we've accomplished was the rockets two champs... i was talking to a guy on the plane last night from another city and the first thing he mentioned was houston having bad luck with sports..

but looking at the marlins right now for instance.. they may have had to suffer a few years after that first champ.. but they now have two champs while we have none...

and even though the rockets haven't done anything recently.. i dont know.. I just have a more positive feeling watching them because I've at least seen them win before in the last ten years..

I guess we will see if I really feel this way if the astros win this year because looking at the way they have these contracts structured.. I have no idea what they are going to do when they all come due..

[Rocket Fan]

madmax.. I'm not meaning to whine about drayton at all with that post if it seems that way..

I was just responding to mrpaiges mention of the diamondbacks because i look at them and I think.. at least they won a ring..

[JPM0016]

baseball is the hardest sport to win a championship in. The playoffs are reserved for 8 elite teams out of 29.

The astros have certainly had the roster to get it done in 98,99 but just couldn't do it. That's on the players, not the owner.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
madmax.. I'm not meaning to whine about drayton at all with that post if it seems that way..

I was just responding to mrpaiges mention of the diamondbacks because i look at them and I think.. at least they won a ring..

D-Backs have been a pretty solid franchise.

i truly don't think i would trade the Astros last 10 years for the Marlins last 10 years. even after 2 championships, they can't sell tickets and there's all sorts of rumblings that "baseball can't work" in Miami. Their season ticket base, at last count is around 9,000...know why??? because no one trusts this franchise to put even a moderately competitve franchise on the field from year to year. not even their own fan base after winning a super exciting world championship. when a team starts in last place and stays in last place all season long, they might as well not even field a team that year...it's miserable through the summer. i like to be entertained...i like to at least have something to root for come august. the astros have done that quite well, with the exception of 2000.

[Rocket Fan]

I have no problem with drayton.. I hope to run a company myself one day... the way he does things is how they have to be done..

my problem is with major league baseball the union etc..

But for me at this point I could handle a few losing seasons to at least win the title once...

with the rockets I at least have that memory and it gives me hope it will happen again.. it's hard to think of the astros as anything but an unsuccessful franchise when they have never won a playoff series of any type EVER

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan


with the rockets I at least have that memory and it gives me hope it will happen again.. it's hard to think of the astros as anything but an unsuccessful franchise when they have never won a playoff series of any type EVER


memories are great...but they're just memories...ask the folks in Boston. ask the folks in Philly.

and again...you're comparing NBA success to MLB success. a sport where more teams make the playoffs than don't to a sport where about 1/4 of the teams in the league make the playoffs...and that's just been in the past 10 years...before that you had 2 divisions in each league and only those division winners were in the playoffs. it's incomparable.

if the astros had the kind of regular season relative to the rest of their league that the rockets did in 1995, they wouldn't even have been in the playoffs...the rockets went on to win a title that year. completely incomparable.

[Rocket Fan]

madmax.. true.. I know they aren't very comparable because of the logistics, but they still won the title and that's the point im trying to make...

I tend to think.. they've done it before they can do it again...

but come down the stretch in August with the Astros I can't help but have in the back of my mind "they make make the playoffs, but they will be out in the first round as always"...

I love the astros organization it's the whole money thing that bothers me and that's major league baseballs fault and the unions..


I think we have one of the best organizations in baseball and there is no doubt in my mind that if Hunsicker had even 2/3's the money the top teams have we would win the title going away.. I know money doesn't gurantee championships, but as good as Hunsicker is I think he'd win them easily.. heck I think he could put together a lot better team than the yanks have with their payroll...

I'm just frustrated.. honestly I probably wouldn't rather have the losing seasons and one title but I was talking about how many good seasons we've had the other day and a yankee fan asked me.. but how many titles do you have? that is what got me on this all :)

[Rocket Fan]

getting back on the wagner topic.. he does need to just be quiet...

one of his complaints also was that he thought they were getting rid of him to cut salary but obviously now they weren't since they got andy and roger..

andy and roger are making less than wagner this year I believe plus we added a huge amount of revenue do to extra ticket sales... it still is cheaper for us to have andy and roger this year than it would have been for us to have wagner this year.. so I'm not sure how his point is valid at all

[bigboymumu]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
getting back on the wagner topic.. he does need to just be quiet...

one of his complaints also was that he thought they were getting rid of him to cut salary but obviously now they weren't since they got andy and roger..

andy and roger are making less than wagner this year I believe plus we added a huge amount of revenue do to extra ticket sales... it still is cheaper for us to have andy and roger this year than it would have been for us to have wagner this year.. so I'm not sure how his point is valid at all

Whatever!!! The two hometown boys landed in the scrooges lap. Wagner was right!

Drayton acquired both at a discount. If it wasn't for the backlash from the fans and writers, he wouldn't of done anything but brought in an injury prone veteran to fill the fifth starter spot.!

[sums41]

Billy Wagner has all this feelings towards the Astros owner because he actually cares, he wanted to be and Astro and when he got traded it got to him, I was mad as hell when they traded Billy, because he was too one of my favorite astros players, now that he is gone he is lashing out at him and i don't blame him.

[JPM0016]

Originally posted by sums41
Billy Wagner has all this feelings towards the Astros owner because he actually cares, he wanted to be and Astro and when he got traded it got to him, I was mad as hell when they traded Billy, because he was too one of my favorite astros players, now that he is gone he is lashing out at him and i don't blame him.

Billy was making 9 million bucks a year to get 3 outs 40 some odd times over the course of the year. Had he wanted to really remain an astro he would have taken a paycut that would have deferred his money as Kent and many other astros have done.

[Rocket Fan]

bigboy.. maybe you misunderstood what I was saying.. I was saying wagner now thinks that they added payroll etc and doesn't know why they got rid of him... what I was saying is it actually cost them less to have roger and andy this season.. so I don't see why wagner is changing his view on why they got rid of him now...


you are right about them landing in his lap.. only in texas could that happen. i had someone telilng me you cant consider yourself a smaller market now that you are able to get kent, roger, and andy.. to which I have to think.. we only got them because they all wanted to be in texas.. this isn't something we can expect to happen.. the fact that we are a smaller market will always be a problem.. and changes still have to be made in regards to a cap..


I do think that they got rid of wagner for the reason of getting andy though.. but they did offer him less so we got VERY lucky that we ended up with roger and andy.. in normal circumstances we would have ended up with no wagner... no roger, or no andy.

[mrpaige]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
I was just responding to mrpaiges mention of the diamondbacks because i look at them and I think.. at least they won a ring..

Of course, it wasn't guaranteed that they'd win the ring, and now they've hamstrung themselves for more than the next decade. The Marlin were able to get rid of their albatross contracts and take less than a decade to rebuild relatively quickly (and even then, they've relied on some lucky circumstances and didn't have a very high payroll when they won last year, i.e. they didn't blow it out and be reckless financially). The D'Backs are looking at several years of still paying off those contracts to guys who are gone. And then they get to rebuild. It could be fifteen years. Could be longer.

The thing is that you don't get to know ahead of time whether the shot of extreme financing will pay off in a World Series ring. It's actually more likely that you could spend, spend, spend and still come up short. I mean, the Yankees are the highest payroll team in baseball, and while they're still making it to the World Series pretty consistently, they aren't winning every one of them.

So, the question is, would you live with last place finishes for the next ten years for a $185 million payroll this year (just as an example)? No guarantees of any better of a showing in the standings, just increased payroll this season, and you can assume that Hunsicker spends it as well as he normally spends.

I'm sure some people will say yes to that, but I think we'd all be surprised how quickly MMP would empty once those last place finishes started even if the theoretical $185 million in payroll resulted in a World Series this year (and especially if it didn't).

People aren't exactly lining up to go to Arlington this summer even though it hasn't been ten years since the Rangers were a competitive team. I don't think a World Series victory in 2000 would get people any more excited to go out there for this season, and with each successive year, the desire would be less and less.

In the end, there's no loyalty to Tom Hicks for taking the losses on the Rangers and putting a more expensive team out on the field than the revenues dictated. People aren't sitting here in Dallas and saying "Well, Tom overspent for years, so now that he's cutting back, I understand, and I'm buying season tickets to support him."

A World Series victory does nothing but make the fans want another World Series victory. If the Astros went from $185 million payroll and WS victory to $40 million payroll going in to the next season, would Astros fans really be happy with that? (Marlin fans sure weren't when a similar thing happened. Why didn't they sit back and say "At least we got a World Series victory" and let that carry them the next several years?)

[sums41]

Originally posted by JPM0016
Billy was making 9 million bucks a year to get 3 outs 40 some odd times over the course of the year. Had he wanted to really remain an astro he would have taken a paycut that would have deferred his money as Kent and many other astros have done.

I agree that he should have taken a pay cut, but if you look at it from billys point of view, why should it be him who takes a pay cut, maybe because he had the best season he has ever had in career? or maybe because he was the most consistent astros pitcher? see if anyone should have taken a paycut so that billy could stay, it would have been Bagwell or Biggio, I wish biggio was gone so we could make room for Jason Lane.

[Rocket Fan]

mrpagie.. I agree 100% with you and I'm not condoning spending a lot and then dumping payroll..

I was looking at it from a standpoint of already knowing you won the world series.. which you really can never know...


looking back at the last 10 years.. hindsight I think I'd trade a few division titles to have a ring.

And I'd absolutely have dreaded each of those 10 years that we lost but when it was all over I'd look more fondly on the team than I do now because they won something...

I'm only 20 so I don't have the memories of some of the great series we had in the 80s.. so the only playoffs I've seen were our non competitive showings.. sports is about memories for me and I haven't had any great memories in the playoffs and thats what's frustrating...

I think my best astros memory by far is being at the last game in the dome the day we clinched the divison...


do you think we've put ourselves in the diamondbacks situation though? I have no idea how on earth we are going to handle all these delayed salaries..

[Rocket Fan]

It's easy for me to say I'd trade them but in reality it would probably just raised my expecations and make it frustrating to lose in the future.. there is something about not expecting to win that makes it less dissapointing.. this year if we don't win will be the most dissapointing because the other years besides when we got randy.. I didn't think we'd win much..

by the way.. this is the most excited i've been for a championship and I like our chances..

[mrpaige]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
do you think we've put ourselves in the diamondbacks situation though? I have no idea how on earth we are going to handle all these delayed salaries..

The deferred salaries are nothing like what the D'Backs did. They really overdid it.

I don't know what Drayton's plans are. It could well be that he expects to make some of the money up when players like Bagwell and Biggio, etc. retire and go off the books. And then have a couple of years of lower payroll while younger, cheaper players make up more of the roster.

Or he may well be planning on selling the team before then and figure it to be someone else's problem.

It's hard to tell, but it's nowhere near as dire as what the Diamondbacks have done.

[Rocket Fan]

mrpaige.. I admittedly haven't looked at the diamondbacks salaries very closely.. didnt realize they were in as bad of shape as they are

[edwardc]

Originally posted by sums41
I agree that he should have taken a pay cut, but if you look at it from billys point of view, why should it be him who takes a pay cut, maybe because he had the best season he has ever had in career? or maybe because he was the most consistent astros pitcher? see if anyone should have taken a paycut so that billy could stay, it would have been Bagwell or Biggio, I wish biggio was gone so we could make room for Jason Lane.

Thank you for saying that because it is true .

[Major]

looking back at the last 10 years.. hindsight I think I'd trade a few division titles to have a ring.

And I'd absolutely have dreaded each of those 10 years that we lost but when it was all over I'd look more fondly on the team than I do now because they won something...


Of course, since baseball has a great deal of luck involved, what happens if something goes wrong that 1 year? Now you have no rings, 1 decent season and 9 sucky seasons. I'd rather take my chances with 10 good seasons and hope one of them becomes great.

In case people have already forgotten, we had that "team with everything" in 1998. We gave up several prospects to get it. We still lost in the first round.

[MadMax]

major -- what an excellent point. even when you have that great team put together, in baseball there are no guarantees. much more is put to chance in baseball than the other big sports. the 98 astros are a freaking testament to that.

oh..and by the way...i keep hearing the astros are some team that can't expect to sign good players without a hometown discount. that's just patently false...just off the top of my head, this team added Moises Alou and Randy Johnson through trade, and picked up Jeff Kent as a free agent. The Astros are fortunate to play in a town where discounts by players seem to be more common than in many other markets (remember, Biggio took less to stay here his first go-around with free agency in the early-90's...Caminiti came back at a serious discount, etc.) the astros would be foolish not to utilize that factor...but they didn't get much of a discount on Pettite, if any, frankly.

[Rocket Fan]

major.. absolutely.. no way i'd want to spend a lot and risk it all for one year.. i was going by hindsight and the fact that I'd rather have one champ and a few less division titles as I looked back on the team...


madmax.. true.. although I think the main reason kent came here is because of the "texas" thing.. and his ranch...

it's not that hard to trade for a player like randy if you have prospects. but we were unable to keep him.

[Rocket Fan]

it isn't so much the discount thing as it is the whole thing about being from texas.. discount or not we got andy and roger because they were from texas.. I dont know any other place where people would leave the team that is usually atop baseball just so they can go to it.

andy, roger, and kent would not be astros except for the fact that it's in texas..

[JBIIRockets]

Billy Wagner sure is high on himself, considering he has been a playoff choker for the most part.

good riddance.

[mrpaige]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
it's not that hard to trade for a player like Randy if you have prospects. but we were unable to keep him.

Because he was interested in going to his hometown to play.

[Rocket Fan]

mrpaige. true.. I was just making the point of I don't remember the last time we were able to sign a big name guy who wasn't coming "because he wants to go back to texas"...

the names alou and randy were thrown out but those were trades and not a matter of a guy flat out coming to sign with us..

who is the last decent guy who came here as a free agent who wasn't coming "back to texas"

[Rocket Fan]

It's not a knock against the organization, if anything its a tribute to our strong system that we don't have to get too many people through free agency...

I just think there are some teams that are attractive to players to go to, and others that arent' so much.

The astros just do not have the stories history that even teams like the cubs seem to have.. that's not draytons fault and that's not gerrys fault.. a world series ring would help that somewhat since the one criticism I always heard of roger and andy were .. "they are going to a team that has never even won a playoff series"..

a lot of people grow up dreaming to be a dodger, yankee, cub, redsox, even cardinal in some places.. I don't know that many non houstonians dream of being an astro

[franchise?..NOT]

August 23-25, BABY! Bring it on, Billy. You have layed down the challenge and Drayton has a lot more to lose/gain than you do. Let's see what Drayton and Dotel have up their sleeves for you and the Phillies, "skidmark". This is what MLB is all about. Get your tickets now. Those games will sell out even if we did not have "Clemitte" pitching for us.

[franchise?..NOT]

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
It's not a knock against the organization, if anything its a tribute to our strong system that we don't have to get too many people through free agency...

I just think there are some teams that are attractive to players to go to, and others that arent' so much.

The astros just do not have the stories history that even teams like the cubs seem to have.. that's not draytons fault and that's not gerrys fault.. a world series ring would help that somewhat since the one criticism I always heard of roger and andy were .. "they are going to a team that has never even won a playoff series"..

a lot of people grow up dreaming to be a dodger, yankee, cub, redsox, even cardinal in some places.. I don't know that many non houstonians dream of being an astro

I can see the 'Stros actually making a trade for a position player by August. Maybe Bags gets his trade to Boston for an outfielder, like Damon or to KC for Beltran. Berkman goes to first and Biggio/Lane to left. Would be a first for us to make a line-up chanje in mid season, but I don't see us needing to even think about adding pitching B4 the trade deadline. I can see alot of guys wanting make a move here now and over the next few years. There are a lot of Texas boys in the bigs who would presumably want to come home. Rangers are going nowhere soon.