Wags-watch. Predict which day he is Xtro.

[xiki]

I 'fearlessly predict' Billy Wags will be a Red Sox or a Yankee or something not rainbowesque in Astroland by the 7th of November. Maybe even the 1st?

Anyone care to claim otherwise? Wags, we shall miss you. You shall be playing hardball in the fall and your x-tros won't. That's the shame of it.

I just hope Jerry makes a Hun-ny of a deal.

[HAYJON02]

i pray red sox. at least we could get some good prospects.

who thinks the sox couldve taken the marlins better than the yanks

very glad with the outcome of that series :D

[MadMax]

i'm betting sometime in december...maybe a week before Christmas.

[A-Train]

Damn...no more "Enter Sandman" at Astros games. :(

Oh well...The closer shouldn't be one of the team's highest paid players, anyways...

[kevwun]

Exactly. A team with a limited payroll doesn't need to spend 7 million a year on a closer.

[Austin70]

When he does leave, Dotel will become the MAN. I wish we could get a starting pitcher out of it, we need that third one, or what could the possibility be of Pettitt coming here and being that starter?

[Nomar]

Well I'll miss seeing him at games.

For me, seeing Billy Wags come out of the pen and throw that 100 mph gas was always the highlight of my Houston Astros experience.

I guess Dotel will be fun still.

At games, nothing better than watching stud relievers at work. Much better than home runs in my opinion.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Nomar


At games, nothing better than watching stud relievers at work. Much better than home runs in my opinion.

could not agree more!!! that's my favorite part of going to baseball games now, as well.

[Buck Turgidson]

Red Sox & Phillies make the most sense, there's virtually zero chance he'll be back next year. As for when, does it really matter?

[tierre_brown]

If we trade Wags, does that mean Hidalgo is safer or more likely to be traded?

[rrj_gamz]

I hate to see him go, but I hope we get a starting pitcher out of it...I suspect we'll keep Dalgy, being his last year, but if he continues his hot streak, he may be gone before the trade deadline...

I'm not sure if Kent will be back for the team's 3rd year option after next year, although I wish he would...

[Joshfast]

Nope. Won't be traded until the winter meetings. Most teams are still evaluating and need more time before gigantic trades can go down.

But what do I know? :p

[jtotheb]

I have full confidence that Gerry Hunsicker (or Hunsinger, if you're Drayton) will make the best possible deal for Wags. I hate to see him go as well....I got to talk to him a couple of years ago at Spring Training, and he was a really nice guy.

IMO it's time to start looking at not only finding some more quality arms, but also a 1st baseman and a true centerfielder.

[deepellumrocket]

Originally posted by jtotheb
IMO it's time to start looking at not only finding some more quality arms, but also a 1st baseman and a true centerfielder.

1st baseman=Berkman

[Lil Francis]

The Astros would be out of their damn mind if they got rid of Wagner. Behind Gagne he is the best closer in the game. He and Dotel are by far the best bullpen duo in baseball.

[deepellumrocket]

Originally posted by Lil Francis
The Astros would be out of their damn mind if they got rid of Wagner. Behind Gagne he is the best closer in the game. He and Dotel are by far the best bullpen duo in baseball.

If we were trading baseball cards, you would be absolutely correct, but real-life players come with salaries attached to them, which changes things considerably.

I would also hate to see Wags go, but if you can add value to this team by trading him, I say do it.

[A-Train]

Having a dominating closer is overrated, IMO. The only difference between Wagner and any other reliever is that he pitches most of his innings when the Astros are ahead instead of behind. I'd love to have Wagner if he didn't make $8 million. That's way too much for a player that pitches one inning an appearance, or over $93,000 per inning. The Astros can get a #3 starter and a center fielder for that kind of money...

[BigM]

dotel can step in there and be very close to what wagner brought. lidge can step in and replace dotel. it is not a necessity to have a dominant 7th inning guy, though we did have that advantage this year. with oswalt back, miller fresh and hopefully wagner getting us a good starter(either through trade or freed up cash) we shouldn't have to rely on the bullpen so much.

[xiki]

from MLB Insider, ESPN:

Monday, October 27, 2003


By Jerry Crasnick
ESPN Insider

Billy Wagner was speaking for a lot of Houston players in late September when he took some shots at Astros owner Drayton McLane Jr. over the team's failure to acquire a frontline pitcher for the stretch run. "This team is based on competing," Wagner told reporters, "not winning."


Uh-oh. On baseball's owner-player animosity meter, that's equivalent to plopping down across from George Steinbrenner and saying, "I know you're The Boss, but don't you think you look a little jowly in those Visa commercials? And how about Northwestern's football team? Are they lame this year, or what?"

It's clear that Wagner, one of baseball's most engaging players, talked his way onto the organizational "B" list with his candor. Before the winter is through, we'll find out if he talked his way out of town

After another disappointing finish, the Astros will spend the winter re-assessing the makeup of their roster. General Manager Gerry Hunsicker, whose flirtation with the Mets job ended when he signed a one-year contract extension with Houston, is hamstrung by long-term commitments to six players: Jeff Bagwell, Jeff Kent, Lance Berkman, Richard Hidalgo, Wagner and Craig Biggio. Combined they will earn $51 million in 2004.

With Roy Oswalt, Wade Miller and Octavio Dotel also due big raises in salary arbitration, Hunsicker might have to suit up a clubby as his No. 5 starter.

"We've tried to hold onto our star players to accommodate the fans, in an effort to create an identity for this team," Hunsicker told Baseball Insider. "This is a dangerous situation for any club. You can't have 70 percent of your payroll tied up in five guys. That creates an inflexibility and ties our hands."

Hunsicker's sentiments might resonate with you, me and lots of major-league owners who signed players to gargantuan deals at the height of the economic boom, but his comments have generated some resentment among players who aren't exactly payroll bandits.

Bagwell hit 39 homers and drove in 100 runs this year despite a summer-long regimen of cortisone shots in his shoulder. Biggio scored 102 runs while switching positions at age 37. Hidalgo rebounded from two off-years to win the Houston baseball writers' team MVP award. Kent played through tendinitis in his wrist to hit .297 with 93 RBI, and although Berkman underachieved by his standards, his .288-25-93 season was hardly a washout of, say, Pat Burrell proportions.

Billy Wagner
Relief Pitcher
Houston Astros
Profile


2003 SEASON STATISTICS
GM W L Sv K ERA
78 1 4 44 105 1.78


That leaves Wagner, who converted 44 of 47 save opportunities, struck out 105 batters in 86 innings and held opponents to a .169 batting average. His biggest sin, other than giving up two homers in a pivotal loss to the Giants in the season's final week, was signing a three-year, $27 million contract last January.

Some Astros have grown tired of Hunsicker lamenting the state of baseball's economic system on behalf of McLane, who says he's losing millions even with a new ballpark. Bagwell's $15 million salary for next year and Hidalgo's $12 million might look exorbitant now, but that was the price of doing business when they signed.

"It's the same issue faced by every club in baseball, except maybe the Yankees," said agent Barry Axelrod, who represents Bagwell and Biggio. "Everybody is crying poorhouse. But teams have to look at their budgets on an annual basis or a five-year window. The Astros were the ones who made the decision to pay these players, so they don't have the standing to complain. It's not as if they inherited these contracts."

Richard Hidalgo
Right Field
Houston Astros
Profile


2003 SEASON STATISTICS
GM HR RBI R SB AVG
141 28 88 91 9 .309


The chances of the Astros trading Bagwell, Biggio, Berkman or Kent are remote. They'd love to move Hidalgo to make room for Triple-A outfielder Jason Lane, but they'll have to pick up somebody else's contract baggage in return. Trading Wagner makes some sense, considering Dotel looks ready to assume the closer role, but the Astros' timing is sure lousy.

Keith Foulke, Eddie Guardado, Armando Benitez, Tom Gordon, Ugueth Urbina, LaTroy Hawkins and Rod Beck are among the relievers on the free-agent market this winter. The surplus of established or would-be closers will make it less essential for a team to invest $8 million in a Billy Wagner. He's the third best closer in baseball behind Eric Gagne and John Smoltz, but unless he's the missing piece to put your team over the top, he might not be $3-4 million better.


Wagner's agent, Bean Stringfellow, still sounds optimistic about things working out in Houston. "Billy wants to remain an Astro," Stringfellow said. "He wants to play for a winner there."


They all do. Now it's up to Hunsicker to gauge the market, sort out the economics and keep McLane happy in the face of criticism, which is always a full-time job. As one Astros-watcher put it, "Drayton knows just enough baseball to be dangerous."


At least Hunsicker knows that things could be worse. He could have taken the Mets job.

[Nick]

In fact... not having Lidge as a "fail-safe" for the 7th inning may convince Williams to leave the starters in longer when they're having good games, and thus spell relief for the bullpen as well as keep the starter's confidence up.

Throughout this year, if a starter gave up a hit or a walk in the 7th inning, in a one or two run game, he was assured of getting yanked in favor of Lidge.

More often than not, this strategy worked.

It DID NOT work in that crucial game against the Giants where Villone was pulled... but by that point, the Lidge-Dotel-Wagner combo was so reliable, it would have been crazy not to bring Lidge in.

Trust me... the more options Jimy has, the more likely he is to use them.

Therefore, getting rid of Wagner (option 1), will benefit everybody... even the Jimy haters. (esp. if we can get a decent SP in return).

[xiki]

Originally posted by Nick
More often than not, this strategy worked.

It DID NOT work in that crucial game against the Giants where Villone was pulled... but by that point, the Lidge-Dotel-Wagner combo was so reliable, it would have been crazy not to bring Lidge in.

(esp. if we can get a decent SP in return).

It did not WORK because the group was overWORKed by then.

Assuming Billy Wags is dealt then assume the $s returned will be much fewer. Soriano-Johnson-Weaver/Wags? The Boss might do it, but would Dray pay? Nah. (Besides is Weaver worth those other two studs? Yeah.)

[Lil Francis]

Originally posted by xiki
It did not WORK because the group was overWORKed by then.

Assuming Billy Wags is dealt then assume the $s returned will be much fewer. Soriano-Johnson-Weaver/Wags? The Boss might do it, but would Dray pay? Nah. (Besides is Weaver worth those other two studs? Yeah.) Soriano would dominate in Minute Maid Park but I would rather deal Hidalgo to try to get him than Wagner. That way we can release Biggio, put Lane in right and have Soriano in center. Peter Gammons claims Soriano was a very good outfielder in the minors so I would love to try it.

[Nick]

Originally posted by xiki
It did not WORK because the group was overWORKed by then.


I tend to disagree with that statment, esp. since they had been lights out in just the prior games before that one, and they continued to be solid afterwards.

Hell... Wagner had more of a work-load than the other two, and he probably had his BEST save two days after this when he struck out Bonds on 101 mph heat.

The bullpen never wore out... it just so happened that they ALL had a bad game that very day. Other than that game, there had not been an occasion where more than one of the big 3 struggled in any given outing.

[Jebus]

Originally posted by Nomar

At games, nothing better than watching stud relievers at work. Much better than home runs in my opinion.

True.. I just moved to New York, and as much as I hate the Yankees, I went to 3 games, and Mariano pitched in all 3. Man, he's awesome.

A lowlight of one of those games was the group of meatheads behind me, one telling the others "ok, guys, Rivera is about to come out of the pen. When he comes out, they play 'Enter Sandman' it's so great". Anybody know whether Wagner got that before Rivera? I honestly don't know.

Sadly, I went to the Astros game the day before the no hitter.

Story of my life.

[Jebus]

Originally posted by Lil Francis
Soriano would dominate in Minute Maid Park but I would rather deal Hidalgo to try to get him than Wagner. That way we can release Biggio, put Lane in right and have Soriano in center. Peter Gammons claims Soriano was a very good outfielder in the minors so I would love to try it.

I actually wouldn't bet the farm against this..

1. Steinbrenner obviously wants major changes after the WS loss.

2. Soriano has been rumored to be on the block- especially in light of his poor postseason. also, it was written that, at the end of the season, he was 'in a fog' n the field But do these things mean we don't want him?

3. Hidalgo would be a great replacement for Garcia in right. He might have thrown out Gonzalez on that play in game 6...

If you think we're going to release Biggio, however, you're on crack. Just not gonna happen.

[xiki]

Originally posted by Nick
I tend to disagree with that statment, esp. since they had been lights out in just the prior games before that one, and they continued to be solid afterwards.

Hell... Wagner had more of a work-load than the other two, and he probably had his BEST save two days after this when he struck out Bonds on 101 mph heat.

The bullpen never wore out... it just so happened that they ALL had a bad game that very day. Other than that game, there had not been an occasion where more than one of the big 3 struggled in any given outing.

I respectfully disagree. The bullpen was worn out EXCEPT for Wags.

I don't want Wags gone, but it appears to me he does want a ticket out of Drayton's playpen.

Lidge was taxed beyond what his body allowed for years. I hope, and expect, that he'll add durability to his repertoire.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by xiki
I respectfully disagree. The bullpen was worn out EXCEPT for Wags.

I don't want Wags gone, but it appears to me he does want a ticket out of Drayton's playpen.

Lidge was taxed beyond what his body allowed for years. I hope, and expect, that he'll add durability to his repertoire.

sometimes i wonder if you watch a completely different team you mistake for the astros. i'm pretty sure you have a direct feed to the brewers and because they're on every night, you assume you're watching the astros.

[Nick]

Originally posted by xiki
I respectfully disagree. The bullpen was worn out EXCEPT for Wags.

I don't want Wags gone, but it appears to me he does want a ticket out of Drayton's playpen.

Lidge was taxed beyond what his body allowed for years. I hope, and expect, that he'll add durability to his repertoire.

Lidge was taxed? I mean, sure he struggled a bit every now and then (throughout the season, not neccessarily the final weeks), but those were normally in games in non-save situations, where he was just pitching to get work (very much like Wagner, in that respect).

In normal save situations, he was usually light's out in those 7th and 8th innings.

Same with Dotel.

They both only faltered that Giants game. That was the ONLY game where more than one member of the big 3 struggled.

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally posted by xiki
The bullpen was worn out EXCEPT for Wags.
(IP, ERA, BA, K:BB)

Ricky Stone:
April: 14, 1.93, .294, 9:8
May: 19.1, 1.86, .172, 7:6
June: 11.1, 9.53, .346, 6:2
July: 16.2, 2.70, .207, 10:4
Aug: 13, 1.39, .191, 8:7
Sept: 8.2, 8.31, .306, 7:4

Brad Lidge:
April: 17.2, 1.02, .172, 18:7
May: 16, 2.25, .196, 20:9
June: 14, 5.79, .226, 15:8
July: 14.1, 1.26, .149, 18:6
Aug: 11.2, 10.03, .250, 14:4
Sept: 11.1, 3.18, .231, 12:8

Octavio Dotel:
April: 13, 2.08, .167, 14:5
May: 17.2, 1.02, .119, 23:5
June: 16.1, 3.31, .188, 18:7
July: 12.2, 4.97, .260, 15:3
Aug: 13.2, 3.95, .200, 13:3
Sept: 13.2, 0.00, .091, 14:8

[xiki]

Originally posted by MadMax
sometimes i wonder if you watch a completely different team you mistake for the astros. i'm pretty sure you have a direct feed to the brewers and because they're on every night, you assume you're watching the astros.

So, we watch the same thing see something different. So what?

Just don't make me out as a hater. I want those guys to win. I don't believe they were 'put together' well (contract imbalances, age) and I don't believe the owner is doing what it takes to be a 'champion'. Does anyone (not related to DMc) disagree?????

But -- yes, Lidge became unreliable. He also never made it thru a minor league season yet a long major league one. He will grow into the role. he's a reason for optimism.

If Hidalgo were traded I'd be fine with it (provided the return was positive). He hustles, has a great arm, and hits 3-4-5 pitchers well. 1-2 pitchers eat him up.