Unanswered Sept. 11 questions

[GreenVegan76]

Phily Daily News (http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/6742902.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp)

(listed below are some of the highlights; the entire article is above)

WHY DON'T WE HAVE ANSWERS TO THESE 9/11 QUESTIONS?

By WILLIAM BUNCH
bunchw@phillynews.com

What did National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice tell President Bush about al Qaeda threats against the United States in a still-secret briefing on Aug. 6, 2001?

Rice has suggested in vague terms that the president's brief - prepared daily by the CIA - included information that morning about Osama bin Laden's methods of operation - including hijacking. But when the congressional committee probing Sept. 11 asked to see the report, Bush claimed executive privilege and refused to release it.

Why did Attorney General John Ashcroft and some Pentagon officials cancel commercial-airline trips before Sept. 11?

On July 26, 2001 - 47 days before the Sept. 11 attacks - CBS News reported that Ashcroft was flying expensive charters rather than commercial flights because of a "threat assessment" by the FBI. CBS said, "Ashcroft has been advised to travel only by private jet for the remainder of his term." Newsweek later reported that on Sept. 10, 2001, "a group of top Pentagon officials suddenly canceled travel plans for the next morning, apparently because of security concerns."

Did either Ashcroft or the Pentagon have advance information about a 9/11-style attack and, if so, why wasn't this shared with the American public?

Who made a small fortune "shorting" airline and insurance stocks before Sept. 11?

On Sept. 10, 2001, the trading ratio on United Airlines was 25 times greater than normal at the Pacific Exchange, where traders could buy "puts," high-risk bets that the price of a company's stock will fall sharply. The next day, two hijacked United jetliners crashed, causing the company's shares to plummet and ultimately leading the airline into bankruptcy. CBS News later reported that at intelligence agencies, "alarm bells were sounding over unusual trading in the U.S. stock options market" on the day before the attacks.

The unusual stock trading suggests that someone with a sophisticated knowledge of finance also had advance information about the impending attack. But two years later, no one has been charged in this matter, and officials have not indicated even if the probe is still open.

Why did President Bush continue reading a story to Florida grade-schoolers for nearly a half-hour during the worst attack on America in its history?

In arguably the greatest understatement in U.S. history, Bush told a questioner at a California town-hall meeting in January 2002 that 9/11 "was an interesting day." Interesting, indeed. In the two years since the attacks, questions have only grown about the president's bizarre behavior that morning, when he was informed in a Sarasota classroom that America was under attack.

"I couldn't stop watching the president sitting there, listening to second-graders, while my husband was burning in a building," World Trade Center widow Lorie van Auken, a leader of relatives of Sept. 11 victims who have raised questions about the attacks, told Gail Sheehy in the New York Observer.

Why did Bush read a children's story about a pet goat and stay in the classroom for more than a half-hour after the first plane struck the World Trade Center and roughly 15 minutes after Chief of Staff Andrew Card told him that it had been a deliberate attack? Why didn't he take more decisive action, and why wasn't he hustled to a secure area while the attacks were clearly still under way?

Where are the planes' "black boxes"?

Nothing is more critical to learning about air disasters than the so-called "black boxes." They are the 30-minute audio recordings of cockpit chatter and the fight-data inputs which show the speed, direction and operational condition of the plane, and which are encased in material designed to withstand a high-speed crash. Yet the government has continued to keep a lid of secrecy on the black boxes from Flight 77, which crashed into the Pentagon, and from Flight 93.

FBI Director Robert Mueller has said Flight 77's data recorder provided altitude, speed, headings and other information, but the voice recorder contained nothing useful. Why not? Why not release the information to the public? Why has a docile mainstream media not demanded this information?

And how come none of the four "indestructible" black boxes was recovered from the World Trade Center, even as investigators said that a passport belonging to one of the hijackers had been found in the rubble, undamaged, a week after the towers's collapse?

Why were Donald Rumsfeld and other U.S. officials so quick to link Saddam Hussein to the attacks?

CBS News reported that the defense secretary was making notes about invading Iraq even before the fires from Flight 77 had been extinguished on the other side of the Pentagon. Rumsfeld wrote that he wanted "best info fast. Judge whether good enough [to] hit S.H." - Saddam Hussein - "at the same time. Not only UBL" - Osama bin Laden. He added: "Go massive. Sweep it all up. Things related and not."

Rumsfeld and a number of other Bush administration officials have ties to a once-obscure policy group called the Project for a New American Century. In a 2000 white paper, PNAC - which had long urged an American invasion of Iraq - said that for the United States to assert itself properly as the world's lone superpower, "some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor" - would be required.

That new Pearl Harbor came - two years ago today.

What is in the 28 blacked-out pages of the congressional Sept. 11 report?

It's not a total mystery. Everyone has acknowledged that the pages contain highly embarrassing information about links between the Sept. 11 hijackers and the government of Saudi Arabia, America's supposed ally in the Middle East and home to the world's largest oil reserves. One of those officials is said to be Saudi ambassador Prince Bandar, whose wife, Princess Haifa, indirectly funded at least two of the Sept. 11 terrorists during their time in San Diego. The prince is so close to the Bush family that he's known, incredibly, as "Bandar Bush." This week, Time reports that just after the Sept. 11 attacks, when U.S. commercial airspace was still closed to our citizens, Bush allowed a jet to stop at 10 U.S. cities to pick up and fly home 140 prominent Saudis, including relatives of bin Laden.

A new must-read book by investigative reporter Posner - "Why America Slept" - takes the conspiracy to the highest of levels of the Saudi government. He says a top bin Laden lieutenant, Abu Zubaydah, who was captured in March 2002, stunned investigators when - allegedly given the "truth serum" sodium pentothal - fingered three top Saudis. They were Prince Ahmed bin Salman bin Abdul Aziz, the Westernized owner of 2002 Kentucky Derby winner War Emblem; Prince Turki al-Faisal bin Abdul Aziz, the kingdom's longtime intelligence chief, and Prince Fahd bin Turki bin Saud al-Kabir.

The most incredible part of the story is what happened next. In an eight-day period in late July 2002, Prince Ahmed died at age 43 from a heart attack, Prince Turki died in a car crash and Prince Fahd "died of thirst." Coincidence? What do you think?

Where is Osama bin Laden?

Remember how President Bush vowed on Sept. 17, 2001, that he was determined to catch bin Laden "dead or alive"? Well, the good news is that if he wants bin Laden "alive," there's still a chance that could happen. Intelligence experts now agree that bin Laden successfully escaped his Tora Bora hideout in Afghanistan back in December 2001 - when the U.S. failed to commit ample manpower to the chase - and that the al Qaeda leader is alive and well, and plotting new attacks.

"We don't know where he is," Army Col. Rodney Davis, spokesman for America's forces in Afghanistan, said recently. But Newsweek seems to know where to find bin Laden: in the remote, mountainous - and lawless - Kunar province of Afghanistan. The magazine chillingly reported that just five short months ago, bin Laden convened the biggest terror summit since Sept. 11 at a mountain stronghold there. The participants reportedly included three top-ranking representatives from the Taliban, several senior al Qaeda operatives and leaders from radical Islamic groups in Chechnya and Uzbekistan. The topic was carrying out attacks against U.S. interests inside Iraq.

The most chilling aspect of the Newsweek report is that bin Laden has access to biological weapons and is determined to find a way to use them against the United States. A source from the Taliban told the magazine: "Osama's next step will be unbelievable."

But this week, ABC News reported that the hunt for bin Laden has been narrowed to a different area - a 40-square-mile section of the Waziristan region of Pakistan. The report said that local residents suspected of trying to inform Americans about bin Laden's whereabouts were executed in broad daylight.

[ima_drummer2k]

Come on, GreenV. Today?

[GreenVegan76]

Originally posted by ima_drummer2k
Come on, GreenV. Today?

Asking why an event happened on its anniversary is entirely appropriate.

Looking truthfully and objectively at what happened so that we might prevent future catastrophes is the ultimate homage to the victims and families.

[mulletman]

Saudi Royal Family + Pakistani ISI are the real axis of evil and I don't know when the neo-con wankers are going to wake up and do something about it.

Without Saudi Financial aid, terrorists everywhere will have to tighten their suicide belts lol

I'm convinced that if the US is ever nuked by the islamofascists....you will come to realise that the nuke didn't come from Iran or Russia or North Korea, but from PAKISTAN...Pakistan ISI has long been infested with radical Islamists and it's impossible for they’re not to be some collusion with Osama and other Al Qaeda morons.

Confessions of a Terrorist
Source: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101030908-480226,00.html

Posner elaborates in startling detail how U.S. interrogators used drugs—an unnamed "quick-on, quick-off" painkiller and Sodium Pentothal, the old movie truth serum—in a chemical version of reward and punishment to make Abu Zubaydah talk. When questioning stalled, according to Posner, cia men flew Zubaydah to an Afghan complex fitted out as a fake Saudi jail chamber, where "two Arab-Americans, now with Special Forces," pretending to be Saudi inquisitors, used drugs and threats to scare him into more confessions.

Yet when Zubaydah was confronted by the false Saudis, writes Posner, "his reaction was not fear, but utter relief." Happy to see them, he reeled off telephone numbers for a senior member of the royal family who would, said Zubaydah, "tell you what to do." The man at the other end would be Prince Ahmed bin Salman bin Abdul Aziz, a Westernized nephew of King Fahd's and a publisher better known as a racehorse owner. His horse War Emblem won the Kentucky Derby in 2002. To the amazement of the U.S., the numbers proved valid. When the fake inquisitors accused Zubaydah of lying, he responded with a 10-minute monologue laying out the Saudi-Pakistani-bin Laden triangle.

Zubaydah, writes Posner, said the Saudi connection ran through Prince Turki al-Faisal bin Abdul Aziz, the kingdom's longtime intelligence chief. Zubaydah said bin Laden "personally" told him of a 1991 meeting at which Turki agreed to let bin Laden leave Saudi Arabia and to provide him with secret funds as long as al-Qaeda refrained from promoting jihad in the kingdom. The Pakistani contact, high-ranking air force officer Mushaf Ali Mir, entered the equation, Zubaydah said, at a 1996 meeting in Pakistan also attended by Zubaydah. Bin Laden struck a deal with Mir, then in the military but tied closely to Islamists in Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (isi), to get protection, arms and supplies for al-Qaeda. Zubaydah told interrogators bin Laden said the arrangement was "blessed by the Saudis."

Zubaydah said he attended a third meeting in Kandahar in 1998 with Turki, senior isi agents and Taliban officials. There Turki promised, writes Posner, that "more Saudi aid would flow to the Taliban, and the Saudis would never ask for bin Laden's extradition, so long as al-Qaeda kept its long-standing promise to direct fundamentalism away from the kingdom." In Posner's stark judgment, the Saudis "effectively had (bin Laden) on their payroll since the start of the decade." Zubaydah told the interrogators that the Saudis regularly sent the funds through three royal-prince intermediaries he named.

[Timing]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GreenVegan76
This week, Time reports that just after the Sept. 11 attacks, when U.S. commercial airspace was still closed to our citizens, Bush allowed a jet to stop at 10 U.S. cities to pick up and fly home 140 prominent Saudis, including relatives of bin Laden.

A new must-read book by investigative reporter Posner - "Why America Slept" - takes the conspiracy to the highest of levels of the Saudi government. He says a top bin Laden lieutenant, Abu Zubaydah, who was captured in March 2002, stunned investigators when - allegedly given the "truth serum" sodium pentothal - fingered three top Saudis. They were Prince Ahmed bin Salman bin Abdul Aziz, the Westernized owner of 2002 Kentucky Derby winner War Emblem; Prince Turki al-Faisal bin Abdul Aziz, the kingdom's longtime intelligence chief, and Prince Fahd bin Turki bin Saud al-Kabir.

The most incredible part of the story is what happened next. In an eight-day period in late July 2002, Prince Ahmed died at age 43 from a heart attack, Prince Turki died in a car crash and Prince Fahd "died of thirst." Coincidence? What do you think?


Outrageous! There seems to be so much stuff going on behind the scenes to protect the Saudis.

[Trader_Jorge]

*Utterly inappropriate*

Today should be set aside for families to mourn their lost loved ones, not for finger pointing purely for partisan gain. Dancing on the graves of those lost on 9-11 for political gain is truly a new low.

[droxford]

Originally posted by GreenVegan76
Looking truthfully and objectively at what happened so that we might prevent future catastrophes is the ultimate homage to the victims and families.
Your post is filled with innuendos and its context reaks of anti-government conspriacy theories. I think most people would like to honor this day and its remembrance with a positive attitude rather than criticize and blame.

Pick a different day for this, and STFU.

-- droxford

[Maynard]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge


finger pointing purely for partisan gain. .

finding out the lapses in security and learning from our mistakes is NOT, I repeat NOT pointing fingers for partisan gain...

Learning from out past mistakes is for EVERY AMERICAN'S GAIN

Unless you arent really interested in preventing another attack and only protecting your partisan asses...

[GreenVegan76]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
*Utterly inappropriate*

Today should be set aside for families to mourn their lost loved ones, not for finger pointing purely for partisan gain. Dancing on the graves of those lost on 9-11 for political gain is truly a new low.

Asking why these innocent people died is partisan? Demanding what could have been done to save them is partisan?

You don't think the survivors are asking these same questions? Don't we owe it to them to demand answers?

There is no finger-pointing here. If you're too blind to your own partisanship to see that these people shouldn't have died in vain, that's your issue. But I'd much rather our government give the survivors the truth, rather than jingoistic rhetoric.

[Manny Ramirez]

GV,

I respect your opinion and the right to post this, but I think you should have done it another time.

[SamFisher]

TJ and dr.oxford, I seriously doubt anybody who is remembering their lost loved ones is coming on to the Cc.net D&D hangout forum today in order to commemorate them.

Posner's book has caused quite a stir, and came out/is coming out just recently. To pretend that this isn't topical is just plain silly. I don't want to speak for GV, but how is questioning the motives of the Pakistani ISI and the House of Saud inappropriate?

I disagree with his contentions that Bush or anybody associated with him knew before the fact (something that is not contained in the Posner book, I don't believe). But it's his right to make the argument.

TJ, as your proud owner since yesterday, I command you to cease and desist lest I bump the social security thread again.

[ROCKSS]

Originally posted by Timing
[QUOTE]Originally posted by GreenVegan76
This week, Time reports that just after the Sept. 11 attacks, when U.S. commercial airspace was still closed to our citizens, Bush allowed a jet to stop at 10 U.S. cities to pick up and fly home 140 prominent Saudis, including relatives of bin Laden.

A new must-read book by investigative reporter Posner - "Why America Slept" - takes the conspiracy to the highest of levels of the Saudi government. He says a top bin Laden lieutenant, Abu Zubaydah, who was captured in March 2002, stunned investigators when - allegedly given the "truth serum" sodium pentothal - fingered three top Saudis. They were Prince Ahmed bin Salman bin Abdul Aziz, the Westernized owner of 2002 Kentucky Derby winner War Emblem; Prince Turki al-Faisal bin Abdul Aziz, the kingdom's longtime intelligence chief, and Prince Fahd bin Turki bin Saud al-Kabir.

The most incredible part of the story is what happened next. In an eight-day period in late July 2002, Prince Ahmed died at age 43 from a heart attack, Prince Turki died in a car crash and Prince Fahd "died of thirst." Coincidence? What do you think?



Is this news or an advertisement. I dont suspose he is sensationalizing anything to get people to buy the book is he?

[Trader_Jorge]

Wait. One. Day.

It's not that hard to do. Have some RESPECT.

[Timing]

Originally posted by GreenVegan76
Asking why these innocent people died is partisan? Demanding what could have been done to save them is partisan?


You know the drill around here GreenV. You'll be blamed for 9/11 and called anti-American any minute now. There's nothing wrong with posting that article. While we remember the victims of this atrocity we should also remember how we've failed them in finding out the truth behind these attacks.

[JuanValdez]

Thanks for the article, it was very interesting. Perhaps it is a sensitive day for people mourning the deaths of loved ones today, but for others who didn't lose anyone but were still hurt by the attacks, I think today is an excellent day to reflect on what we need to be doing as a result of all this.

Some of the article was overly conspiracy-suspicious and other parts too condemnatory, but it does remind us of some related issues that haven't been discussed the other 364 days of the year.

[GreenVegan76]

Originally posted by JuanValdez
Thanks for the article, it was very interesting. Perhaps it is a sensitive day for people mourning the deaths of loved ones today, but for others who didn't lose anyone but were still hurt by the attacks, I think today is an excellent day to reflect on what we need to be doing as a result of all this.

I agree 100-percent. Excellent points. I didn't post this article to piss people off -- I just think the survivors (and those lost) deserve answers.

As a country, we failed them -- and they deserve the full truth.

[Mr. Clutch]

Originally posted by GreenVegan76
I agree 100-percent. Excellent points. I didn't post this article to piss people off -- I just think the survivors (and those lost) deserve answers.

As a country, we failed them -- and they deserve the full truth.

I do not believe that THEY think we have failed them.

[Dubious]

Originally posted by GreenVegan76

What did National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice tell President Bush about al Qaeda threats against the United States in a still-secret briefing on Aug. 6, 2001? [/B]

That there was increased chatter as reported by top secret sources they don't want Al Qeda to know about?


[i]Why did Attorney General John Ashcroft and some Pentagon officials cancel commercial-airline trips before Sept. 11? [/B]

See the above

[i]Who made a small fortune "shorting" airline and insurance stocks before Sept. 11?[/B]

Well shorting airline stocks is not that uncommon, especially in periods of rising oil prices but the rumor I heard was Al Qeda operatives did the shorting to finance their Jihad. They wear towels on their heads but they are not unsophisticated in the world of finance.

[i][Why did President Bush continue reading a story to Florida grade-schoolers for nearly a half-hour during the worst attack on America in its history?

Well he was pretty safe there away from NY and Washington, I would guess the Secret Service needed a little time to asses what was happening and decide on an action plan. Besises would you want him to break out in a panic and scare a bunch of little kids?


[i]Where are the planes' "black boxes"?

Melted within the other 100 million tons of steel and concrete? I don't think they were tested for that condition, besides you'd probably just hear a bunch of Ali ali achbars.


Why were Donald Rumsfeld and other U.S. officials so quick to link Saddam Hussein to the attacks?

Because they thought he might be mad at us since we defeated him in a war?


That new Pearl Harbor came - two years ago today.

[What is in the 28 blacked-out pages of the congressional Sept. 11 report?

We still have to be pretty careful with the Saudi's. Like it or not they do control world oil prices.

[Where is Osama bin Laden?

Well we didn't find him yet but we ran his ass to the end of the Earth where he is going to find it pretty hard to operate.

Vegan, nothing ever runs perfectly, you can second guess anyones actions in fact it's probably a healthy exercise. But conspiricy theories are usually psycologically based rather than fact based. Like saying " there sure are a lot of blue cars" and since you've said it you tend to focus on blue cars so it does seem like there are a lot of them.

[GladiatoRowdy]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
Wait. One. Day.

It's not that hard to do. Have some RESPECT.

Haven't we waited two years?

[GreenVegan76]

Good analysis, GP. I don't know if you read the Philly Daily News story, but it parallels a few of the ideas you have.

[SamFisher]

A slightly more valid take on the same subject matter from Slate.com:


hey, wait a minute The conventional wisdom debunked.


What You Think You Know About Sept. 11 …
… but don't.
By David Plotz
Posted Wednesday, September 10, 2003, at 8:42 AM PT


The Saudi government paid off al-Qaida in exchange for immunity from terror attacks. Saudi princes knew in advance about the Sept. 11 attacks. Most of the Saudi officials who assisted al-Qaida all died mysteriously soon thereafter. The revelations in Gerald Posner's new book Why America Slept are an astonishing reminder of just how much we still don't know about Sept. 11 and its planning.


But there is also plenty that we think we know but don't. I'm not talking about shoddy conspiracy theories (that Jews were warned not to show up for work at the World Trade Center, for example) believed by the ignorant and the paranoid, but widespread misconceptions held by everyday Americans. Here are six of the most common:

1. The misconception: Zacarias Moussaoui was the "20th hijacker." In the first months after the attacks, federal officials—including Vice President Cheney—hinted that Moussaoui, who was taken into federal custody before Sept. 11, might have been the missing man on the Flight 93 hijacking team. Moussaoui's indictment in Dec. 2001 also linked him to the Sept. 11 plot, trying to show parallels between Moussaoui and the Sept. 11 terrorists—flight training, joining a gym, mysterious funding from overseas, connection to ringleader Ramzi Binalshibh, etc.

What's wrong with the story: There is no actual evidence that Moussaoui was supposed to be on Flight 93 or the other planes. Moussaoui had no contact with any of the Sept. 11 hijackers and took his flight training long after they did. According to Yosri Fouda and Nick Fielding's Masterminds of Terror, Binalshibh has said that while he contemplated Moussaoui as an understudy for 9/11, he was never part of the plot. Binalshibh said he was glad that he kept Moussaoui, who was not really trusted by al-Qaida, away from the other hijackers. (Incidentally, it is Binalshibh who was a failed hijacker: He couldn't get a U.S. visa.) This does not excuse Moussaoui, a truly bad guy who was apparently preparing for some act of airplane terrorism.

(Bonus Moussaoui misconception: that he only wanted to learn how to steer jumbo jets, not take off or land. In fact, as this Slate Explainer notes, the opposite is true: Moussaoui only wanted to learn takeoffs and landings.)

2. The misconception: We know how the hijackers seized the planes. Within days of Sept. 11, Americans believed they knew how the planes were grabbed: Terrorists had taken control by stabbing pilots, passengers, and flight attendants with box cutters and knives.

What's wrong with the story: It's incomplete and misleading. We don't really know what happened on the planes. The cockpit voice recorder survived neither New York crash and was damaged beyond salvage in the Pentagon crash. The Flight 93 voice recorder doesn't start until several minutes after the hijackers took the plane. What little we know about tactics and weapons comes from phones calls made by passengers and flight attendants. As Edward Jay Epstein has pointed out, the evidence is incredibly paltry. No one on United Flight 175, which crashed into the World Trade Center, reported anything about weapons or tactics. One flight attendant on American Flight 11, which also crashed into the World Trade Center, said she was disabled by a chemical spray, while another flight attendant said a passenger was stabbed or shot. On the Pentagon plane, American Flight 77, Barbara Olson reported hijackers carrying knives and box cutters but did not describe how they took the cockpit. And on United Flight 93, passengers reported knives but also a hijacker threatening to explode a bomb. The box cutter-knives story isn't demonstrably false, but it serves to divert attention from the other weapons and to mask the fact that we don't have any idea how the hijackings happened.

3. The misconception: Iraq was involved in the Sept. 11 attacks. According to an August Washington Post poll, nearly 70 percent of Americans believe Iraq played a role.

What's wrong with the story: For starters, the two captured planners of the 9/11 attacks, Binalshibh and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, have both reportedly denied Iraqi involvement during interrogations. Next, those who argue for Iraq's guilt rely on dubious claims. The first is an on-again, off-again Czech assertion that Mohamed Atta met with an Iraqi agent in Prague. But American intelligence agencies now believe the meeting did not occur. (This Slate dialogue debated the Atta meeting and other Iraqi links to terrorism.) Several conservative analysts—notably Laurie Mylroie and former CIA Director James Woolsey—have pushed the idea that the first World Trade Center bombing was an Iraqi intelligence operation, and thus Sept. 11 might have been too. They believe that Ramzi Yousef, the architect of the first bombing, was acting for the Iraqis, and since Yousef's uncle is Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Iraq should be suspect again. But no one has managed to show that Iraq sponsored Ramzi Yousef or the 9/11 terrorists.

Perhaps the most compelling evidence against Iraqi involvement is that the Bush administration hasn't made a case for it. The president is desperate to link Iraq to al-Qaida. But so far, his team hasn't managed to find anything tangible that connects the Hussein regime to Osama Bin Laden (much less to 9/11). The administration wants the nefarious alliance so much that if it had any evidence, it surely would have leaked it. This does not prove, however, that Iraq and al-Qaida never cooperated. The polls, in fact, may reflect a kind of commonsense logic: Saddam Hussein and al-Qaida share a pathological hatred of the United States, so it's entirely possible that they collaborated, even if we don't know how.

4. The misconception: The Sept. 11 plotters planned to use crop-dusters for a biological or chemical attack.

What's wrong with the story: On the surface, the case for crop-dusters is powerful. The federal government twice grounded crop-dusters after 9/11 because of suspicion they might be used for attacks. The original indictment of Moussaoui suggested that he and the 9/11 plotters were investigating crop-dusters. Workers at a crop-dusting company in Florida reported that Mohamed Atta and other Arab men repeatedly inquired about crop-dusters. A Department of Agriculture official named Johnelle Bryant claimed that Atta visited her in early 2000 and asked for a government loan to buy a plane that he would modify for crop-dusting.

But as Edward Jay Epstein has pointed out, the crop-dusting stories are squirrelly. A crop-dusting worker claimed Atta dropped by the weekend before 9/11, but Atta had already left Florida. Bryant pinpointed Atta's visit to late April or early-mid-May of 2000—but this was before Atta even arrived in the United States. When prosecutors revised the Moussaoui indictment in 2002, they also dropped all mention of crop-dusting. And in interviews with Al Jazeera's Yosri Fouda, Ramzi Binalshibh and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed didn't mention any interest in a crop-dusting attack. They indicated that the plan was always to fly airplanes into buildings.

Some al-Qaida operatives may have inquired about crop-dusting, and one may even have sought a loan from Johnelle Bryant. (Some terrorism analysts speculate that before al-Qaida decided to seize airliners, it planned to buy a small plane, fill it with explosives, and crash it.) The crop-dusting story can't be disproved, but no solid public evidence exists that the 9/11 plotters were interested in either crop-dusters or a biological or chemical attack.

5. The misconception: Terrorists or their supporters profited by speculating on airline stocks before 9/11.

What's wrong with the story: Terrorists may have profiteered, but the evidence is sketchy. As was widely reported after 9/11, the options market for United and American Airlines was unusually busy in the days before 9/11, with an extremely heavy volume of "put options"—bets that the airline shares would fall. By the end of September 2001, both the Chicago Board Options Exchange and the Securities and Exchange Commission had launched investigations into the unusual trading. Since then, they've been silent. Two years later, neither the exchange nor the SEC will comment on its investigation. Neither has announced any conclusion. The SEC has not filed any complaint alleging illegal activity, nor has the Justice Department announced any investigation or prosecution.

This does not mean terrorist wagering didn't occur: It might well have. The absence of any complaint suggests the SEC found nothing illegal, but that's not definite. The SEC and the Chicago board seal the records of their investigations and won't offer any explanation—even if there is an innocent one—for the strange trading. So, unless the SEC decides to file a complaint—unlikely at this late stage—we may never know what they learned about terror trading.

6. The misconception: No one could have predicted the Sept. 11 attacks. Since 9/11, President Bush and his team have repeatedly insisted that the attacks were inconceivable. David Corn chronicles these claims in his new book The Lies of George W. Bush: Mastering the Politics of Deception. In May 2002, for example, Condoleezza Rice said, "I don't think anyone could have predicted that these people would take an airplane and slam it into the World Trade Center." Ari Fleischer echoed her, "Never did we imagine what would take place on Sept. 11 where people use those airplanes as missiles and weapons."

What's wrong with the story: In fact, there were tons of warnings of exactly this kind of attack. The recent congressional report on the 9/11 intelligence failures lists a dozen pre-9/11 indications that terrorists were plotting a suicide hijacking. For example, in 1994 Algerians hijacked an Air France airliner with the intention of crashing it into the Eiffel Tower. (They were tricked by French officials into landing in Marseilles to refuel, where they were overpowered.) In 1995, police in the Philippines uncovered an al-Qaida plot to fly a plane into CIA headquarters. (One of the plotters: Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.) A year later, al-Qaida had the idea of flying a plane from outside the United States and crashing it into the White House. Two years later, al-Qaida planned to fly a plane from outside the United States and crash it into the World Trade Center. And so on.

Intelligence officials, who are endlessly juggling all kinds of different threats, didn't take the suicide-plane schemes seriously because they believed there were other, more imminent dangers. But no one can say they weren't warned.

[Trader_Jorge]

Originally posted by andymoon
Haven't we waited two years?
I woke up this morning, turned on the television and saw small children reading their deceased father's names out at Ground Zero. This apparently has no emotional impact on the raging hoards of liberals who can not take even one day out of their calendar to stop the finger pointing and pay their respects to the murdered mothers and fathers of small children. Today is the anniversary of one of the darkest days in America's history. It is a very emotional day which is being disrespected by the incessant accusations and blame game tactics being put forth by the callous liberals on this board.

[RocketMan Tex]

Originally posted by Mr. Clutch
I do not believe that THEY think we have failed them.

I call.....BULL*****!

http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/943828.asp?0cv=kb20&cp1=1

[Friendly Fan]

GV,

thanks for posting.

Ignore the naysayers. They would have a reason to bitch yesterday or tomorrow, too. The most annoying thing about neo-cons is the way they think they own moral outrage. Oh, they get upset if YOUR view doesn't comport with theirs, this from the bunch that impeached a president over a blowjob, and kept a witch hunt investigation going 6 years.


The anniversary day is the BEST day to re-visit this.

Here's an idea, trader jorge: tell Bush to stop wiping his butt with 9/11 every time he has something he wants to do. BUSH has disrespected every person who died there with his outrageous war against Iraq and his outrageous lies to pawn 9/11 off on Saddam.

And while we're at it, why isn't anyone asking him why he went soft in Afghanistan, instead of getting the job done? Because he needed a photo op on a Carrier?


If this were not 9/11, trader jorge would be saying "how can you disrespect them on a Thursday?"


:rolleyes: same old same old

[Mr. Clutch]

Originally posted by RocketMan Tex
I call.....BULL*****!

http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/943828.asp?0cv=kb20&cp1=1

There is a big difference between them wanting more info. and them thinking America has failed them.

[RocketMan Tex]

Originally posted by Mr. Clutch
There is a big difference between them wanting more info. and them thinking America has failed them.

Spin it any way you want to, Lester. I happen to think it's a very fine line between the two.

[GladiatoRowdy]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
I woke up this morning, turned on the television and saw small children reading their deceased father's names out at Ground Zero. This apparently has no emotional impact on the raging hoards of liberals who can not take even one day out of their calendar to stop the finger pointing and pay their respects to the murdered mothers and fathers of small children. Today is the anniversary of one of the darkest days in America's history. It is a very emotional day which is being disrespected by the incessant accusations and blame game tactics being put forth by the callous liberals on this board.

I am truly sorry that you are SO far to the right that you can't recognize that I am not a liberal, but that is your handicap, not mine.

Today is the anniversary of one of the darkest days in our history, a day which has not been investigated by any government agency despite the cries of the people who lost loved ones in the attacks. 60 minutes ran a story Sunday before last in which they profiled four women who each lost a husband on 9/11 and have gotten the runaround from everyone in the government they have talked to. All they want is for a responsible agency like the Congress to investigate the attacks. They are still waiting.

It is absolutely sad that you can't seem to handle even a single question being put to this administration, even when the subject is as important as 9/11.

[Maynard]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
I woke up this morning, turned on the television and saw small children reading their deceased father's names out at Ground Zero. This apparently has no emotional impact on the raging hoards of liberals who can not take even one day out of their calendar to stop the finger pointing and pay their respects to the murdered mothers and fathers of small children. Today is the anniversary of one of the darkest days in America's history. It is a very emotional day which is being disrespected by the incessant accusations and blame game tactics being put forth by the callous liberals on this board.

Ill try again, but I know you won't understand and will spew the same BS again but I'll try anyways

finding out the lapses in security and learning from our mistakes is NOT, I repeat NOT pointing fingers for partisan gain...

Learning from out past mistakes is for EVERY AMERICAN'S GAIN

Unless you arent really interested in preventing another attack and only protecting your partisan asses...

[GreenVegan76]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
I woke up this morning, turned on the television and saw small children reading their deceased father's names out at Ground Zero. This apparently has no emotional impact on the raging hoards of liberals who can not take even one day out of their calendar to stop the finger pointing and pay their respects to the murdered mothers and fathers of small children. Today is the anniversary of one of the darkest days in America's history. It is a very emotional day which is being disrespected by the incessant accusations and blame game tactics being put forth by the callous liberals on this board.

You're obviously passionate about this, and your compassion for the survivors is certainly appropriate.

But if you think "liberals" woke up this morning and shrugged off those same images, you are deeply mistaken. Despite being so "callous," I cry every time I see those images -- of the towers falling, of the crying families, of the children reading their fathers' names -- everything. Like you, I'm touched by these horrible images. We all are.

Your implication that liberals don't care because we demand answers for the victims, survivors and ourselves -- and refuse to accept hollow jingoistic nationalism as justification for suppressed information -- is indeed a low blow. My heart goes out to the victims and survivors, and for you to suggest that I'm callous for "political gain" is truly disappointing.

Take off the blinders, friend.

[Rocketman95]

Originally posted by GreenVegan76
You're obviously passionate about this, and your compassion for the survivors is certainly appropriate.

But if you think "liberals" woke up this morning and shrugged off those same images, you are deeply mistaken. Despite being so "callous," I cry every time I see those images -- of the towers falling, of the crying families, of the children reading their fathers' names -- everything. Like you, I'm touched by these horrible images. We all are.

Your implication that liberals don't care because we demand answers for the victims, survivors and ourselves -- and refuse to accept hollow jingoistic nationalism as justification for suppressed information -- is indeed a low blow. My heart goes out to the victims and survivors, and for you to suggest that I'm callous for "political gain" is truly disappointing.

Take off the blinders, friend.

I'm sure this outstanding post is being reported to the moderators as I type.

I am disgusted by people like Trader_Jorge who <B>ASS</B>ume that people who disagree with how this government has handled things both pre and post-9/11 are somehow happy with any of the many horrible events that have occured. I would never say that about anyone I disagreed with politically and for this person to say it shows what kind of person he is (not that anyone is surprised).

[JuanValdez]

I don't like that Slate article. He lists these 'misconceptions' and goes to show how we don't know the thing for sure. Moussaoui only might have been the 20th hijacker; they only might have taken the planes using box cutters; Iraq probably was not involved; terrorists only might have been interested in crop-dusters; terrorists only might have profited from stock speculation; and we might have been able to predict an attack. "Misconception" is a loaded word: it means the idea is wrong. The ideas he's countering aren't necessarily wrong; they only might be wrong. Besides that, they aren't that important. I am interested in what we've done and are doing and ought to do. What the terrorists might have contemplated or done with crop dusters, stock markets, and box cutters is something for the Defense department to worry about.

[ROXTXIA]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
*Utterly inappropriate*

Today should be set aside for families to mourn their lost loved ones, not for finger pointing purely for partisan gain. Dancing on the graves of those lost on 9-11 for political gain is truly a new low.

Somehow I don't feel you'll post this a year from now at the Republican National Convention when Dubya is putting on his best sad-monkey face while standing on the site of the 3000 people his administration could have saved; but you should.

[Mr. Clutch]

Originally posted by JuanValdez
Besides that, they aren't that important. I am interested in what we've done and are doing and ought to do. What the terrorists might have contemplated or done with crop dusters, stock markets, and box cutters is something for the Defense department to worry about.

Also, to expand on this point, I am not surprised there are various details that the American public will not be completely accurate about. But we should not dwell on it. Instead we should be happy that the American people have the right response- that we should fight the terrorists, that we should help Arab countries rebuild after wars, that we should be tolerant to Muslims, and that we should not lose our civil rights.

I am disturbed that much of the media is so negative with regards to American beliefs, when in fact we are being very idealistic. I mean, I could think of alternative solutions- atomic bombs, no rebuilding, rounding up all Muslims, etc.

[SamFisher]

Originally posted by JuanValdez
I don't like that Slate article. He lists these 'misconceptions' and goes to show how we don't know the thing for sure. Moussaoui only might have been the 20th hijacker; they only might have taken the planes using box cutters; Iraq probably was not involved; terrorists only might have been interested in crop-dusters; terrorists only might have profited from stock speculation; and we might have been able to predict an attack. "Misconception" is a loaded word: it means the idea is wrong. The ideas he's countering aren't necessarily wrong; they only might be wrong. Besides that, they aren't that important. I am interested in what we've done and are doing and ought to do. What the terrorists might have contemplated or done with crop dusters, stock markets, and box cutters is something for the Defense department to worry about.

Your level of trust in the DoD currently exceeds that of many within the Bush administration.

But how do we know "what we've done and are doing, and what we ought to do.", if we don't know what THEY did in the first place?

What if the terrorists had inside men in the airports handing them weapons at the airports by planting htem in planes. Wouldn't that make increased security screenings at passenger checkpoints at best, misdirected, and at worst, capable of instilling a false sense of security?

So you guys are content just to assume what might have happened, probably did happen, despiite the lack of evidence, so that's the problem we should try to fix?

I think it's impossible to determine "what to do" if you don't know what happened, Those that don't learn from history......

[Friendly Fan]

Originally posted by ROXTXIA
Somehow I don't feel you'll post this a year from now at the Republican National Convention when Dubya is putting on his best sad-monkey face while standing on the site of the 3000 people his administration could have saved; but you should.

worth repeating

[MadMax]

Originally posted by ROXTXIA
Somehow I don't feel you'll post this a year from now at the Republican National Convention when Dubya is putting on his best sad-monkey face while standing on the site of the 3000 people his administration could have saved; but you should.

wow. "could have saved", huh?

what a pile of crap.

[Rocketman95]

Originally posted by MadMax
wow. "could have saved", huh?

what a pile of crap.

That part, yes. The rest, right on.

And yes, had the Democrats planned on the same thing, I'd be just as outraged.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
That part, yes. The rest, right on.

And yes, had the Democrats planned on the same thing, I'd be just as outraged.

i don't disagree...

[Trader_Jorge]

Originally posted by ROXTXIA
Somehow I don't feel you'll post this a year from now at the Republican National Convention when Dubya is putting on his best sad-monkey face while standing on the site of the 3000 people his administration could have saved; but you should.

The worst thing I have ever read on this BBS, hands down. On a day of mourning, no less. This even trumps RM95's assault on Refman's employment status.

[Rocketman95]

Originally posted by MadMax
i don't disagree...

I didn't think you would...

:)

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
I didn't think you would...

:)

why? because you're bigger than me and we're eating lunch together tomorrow?? :)

[Rocketman95]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
This even trumps RM95's assault on Refman's employment status.

Does it trump your mistakingly making fun of my job? How about trying to embarass me while you search for your life partner? How about you basically saying that liberals don't care about what happened on 9/11.

Oh, if only I was a three-year old tattletale like you...

Of course, I don't recall my assualt on Refman's employment status. However, I am happy that my <B>friend</B> is gainfully employed currently, even though I do miss his contributions on this board.

[GreenVegan76]

Quote:
Originally posted by GreenVegan76

You're obviously passionate about this, and your compassion for the survivors is certainly appropriate.

But if you think "liberals" woke up this morning and shrugged off those same images, you are deeply mistaken. Despite being so "callous," I cry every time I see those images -- of the towers falling, of the crying families, of the children reading their fathers' names -- everything. Like you, I'm touched by these horrible images. We all are.

Your implication that liberals don't care because we demand answers for the victims, survivors and ourselves -- and refuse to accept hollow jingoistic nationalism as justification for suppressed information -- is indeed a low blow. My heart goes out to the victims and survivors, and for you to suggest that I'm callous for "political gain" is truly disappointing.

Take off the blinders, friend.

Originally posted by Rocketman95

I'm sure this outstanding post is being reported to the moderators as I type.

I am disgusted by people like Trader_Jorge who ASSume that people who disagree with how this government has handled things both pre and post-9/11 are somehow happy with any of the many horrible events that have occured. I would never say that about anyone I disagreed with politically and for this person to say it shows what kind of person he is (not that anyone is surprised).

Open debate is what keeps this country healthy. If we don't respect (or at least acknowledge) different viewpoints, democracy fails.

[Rocketman95]

Originally posted by GreenVegan76
Open debate is what keeps this country healthy. If we don't respect (or at least acknowledge) different viewpoints, democracy fails.

I completely agree. I was just pointing out that Trader_Tattletale has a history of reporting messages to the moderators here. More than anyone else in the history of the BBS as a matter of fact.

[Mulder]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
The worst thing I have ever read on this BBS, hands down.

You must just skim a lot of this board then...

[GreenVegan76]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
I completely agree. I was just pointing out that Trader_Tattletale has a history of reporting messages to the moderators here. More than anyone else in the history of the BBS as a matter of fact.

So essentially he tattles on people he doesn't like? Am I reading that right? :confused:

I'm ignorant about that -- what does posting messages to the moderators do? Don't they read these messages anyway?

[GladiatoRowdy]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
The worst thing I have ever read on this BBS, hands down. On a day of mourning, no less. This even trumps RM95's assault on Refman's employment status.

Do you ever read your own posts???

[GladiatoRowdy]

Originally posted by GreenVegan76
So essentially he tattles on people he doesn't like? Am I reading that right? :confused:

I'm ignorant about that -- what does posting messages to the moderators do? Don't they read these messages anyway?

He reported an asterisk masked, obcenity laced post from Achebe to the moderators. He was the ONLY one who reported it.

[Friendly Fan]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
The worst thing I have ever read on this BBS, hands down. On a day of mourning, no less.

This is the most melodramatic post ever made in the history of message boards.






see, TJ, anyone can do it

[SamFisher]

Originally posted by andymoon
He reported an asterisk masked, obcenity laced post from Achebe to the moderators. He was the ONLY one who reported it.

There was some other quote from Jeff about him reporting 4 posts in 48 hours or something like that also.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by andymoon
He reported an asterisk masked, obcenity laced post from Achebe to the moderators. He was the ONLY one who reported it.

to be fair, i thought that post was way over the top, too. i like achebe, but it didn't surprise me when the hammer dropped.

[Friendly Fan]

WARNING! THE FOLLOWING POST CONTAINS HYPERBOLE WHICH MAY BE IN LETHAL DOSES TO CHILDREN. If you have the mind of the child, please don't read this.


Originally posted by GreenVegan76
So essentially he tattles on people he doesn't like? Am I reading that right? :confused:

I'm ignorant about that -- what does posting messages to the moderators do? Don't they read these messages anyway?

GV, it was reported in a thread a while back (my first if I recall) that Trader george files more complaints about other posters more than anyone else here. As I recall, he wanted my thread locked up because it offended his sensitive nature. He's a compASSionate conservative.

I would not dream of complaining about the post of another unless it clearly contained materials which I knew THE SITE found objectionable - not me. But apparently Tattle Jorge is the biggest crybaby on the board.


Remember the little booger-eating kid in grade school who was always telling tales about other kids to the teacher, hoping to get someone in trouble?

[GladiatoRowdy]

Originally posted by MadMax
to be fair, i thought that post was way over the top, too. i like achebe, but it didn't surprise me when the hammer dropped.

I agree that he went over the top, but that post did have a point and content that was separate from the vulgarity. It would have been right on if he had simply yelled the obcenities at the monitor instead of typing them.

[GladiatoRowdy]

Originally posted by Friendly Fan
GV, it was reported in a thread a while back (my first if I recall) that Trader george files more complaints about other posters more than anyone else here. As I recall, he wanted my thread locked up because it offended his sensitive nature. He's a compASSionate conservative.

I would not dream of complaining about the post of another unless it clearly contained materials which I knew THE SITE found objectionable - not me. But apparently Tattle Jorge is the biggest crybaby on the board.


Remember the little booger-eating kid in grade school who was always telling tales about other kids to the teacher, hoping to get someone in trouble?

That booger comment is sure to get you reported.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by andymoon
I agree that he went over the top, but that post did have a point and content that was separate from the vulgarity. It would have been right on if he had simply yelled the obcenities at the monitor instead of typing them.

I don't know that it's worth replaying...but the point of his post was to personally insult, with a great deal of vulgarity, those on the board who lean to the right who had not yet responded to a thread...that was it...to call them hypocrites...and worse. he called me by name..i was the only one who was called out by name. i don't see any point in that.

[Friendly Fan]

Originally posted by andymoon
That booger comment is sure to get you reported.

if he can prove he didn't, I'll retract it

[RocketMan Tex]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
The worst thing I have ever read on this BBS, hands down. On a day of mourning, no less. This even trumps RM95's assault on Refman's employment status.

Don't you think it's about time you grew up?

[Friendly Fan]

Originally posted by MadMax
I don't know that it's worth replaying...but the point of his post was to personally insult, with a great deal of vulgarity, those on the board who lean to the right who had not yet responded to a thread...that was it...to call them hypocrites...and worse. he called me by name..i was the only one who was called out by name. i don't see any point in that.

I don't remember the post referred to, but I read a few of Achebe's that were excessive in their use of profanity. I don't really care for it. If someone says "I'm such a dumb azz," that's cool. If someone says "you are a dumb azz" not cool. at least not to me.

I don't care how many asterisks are used, if someone unleashes profanity at another poster, that's not cool, even if the target is TJ. I try to pimp him no harder than he pimps others, and to do so in a semi-humorous manner.

[GreenVegan76]

A little playful trash-talking is one thing, but dropping f-bombs and lobbing mean-spirited vulgarity isn't cool.

For you savvy BBS vets: How many guys have been banned? Where's the line usually drawn?

By the way, I'm cool with whatever guidelines/rules Clutch BBS has. This is *the* best message board I've seen, and they have every right to keep things clean.

Their board, their rules.

[KingCheetah]

Thread title:

Unanswered Sept 11. questions

I believe the debate needs to end on whether or not this is an appropriate thread. It is both timely and necessary, there is no better day to have an intelligent discussion on whether or not the current administration is withholding information or there is missing information on the 9/11 attacks from other sources. Certainly if the current administration is comfortable raising the "terror level" today then I think we should feel quite comfortable with this discussion.

[GreenVegan76]

Originally posted by KingCheetah
Thread title:

Unanswered Sept 11. questions

I believe the debate needs to end on whether or not this is an appropriate thread. It is both timely and necessary, there is no better day to have an intelligent discussion on whether or not the current administration is withholding information or there is missing information on the 9/11 attacks from other sources. Certainly if the current administration is comfortable raising the "terror level" today then I think we should feel quite comfortable with this discussion.

Excellent points.

[Trader_Jorge]

Originally posted by Friendly Fan
He's a compASSionate conservative.

I would not dream of complaining about the post of another unless it clearly contained materials which I knew THE SITE found objectionable - not me. But apparently Tattle Jorge is the biggest crybaby on the board.


Remember the little booger-eating kid in grade school who was always telling tales about other kids to the teacher, hoping to get someone in trouble?

followed up with:

Originally posted by Friendly Fan
I don't remember the post referred to, but I read a few of Achebe's that were excessive in their use of profanity. I don't really care for it. If someone says "I'm such a dumb azz," that's cool. If someone says "you are a dumb azz" not cool. at least not to me.

I don't care how many asterisks are used, if someone unleashes profanity at another poster, that's not cool, even if the target is TJ.
First it is acceptable to call me a vulgar name. Then you state that it is unacceptable to "unleash profanity". Hypocrisy at its finest, ladies and gents.

EXPOSED

[MadMax]

TJ -- there is nothing better than you finishing a post with "EXPOSED"...that's so freaking funny i literally laugh out loud every time, whether i agree with your post or not. :D

[Franchise2001]

This thread is ridiculous.. as a democrat I even agree with T_J by saying NOT TODAY.

You can point the finger this way and that way, but nothing is going to change what happened. If the truth comes out about this stuff, you will know. Until then, today is a day of REFLECTION AND REMEMBRANCE, not a day to worry about if people made money or whatever.

[MadMax]

since Franchise 2001's post MIGHT be a thread-ender...i wanted to follow up with this parting thought:

quagmire

halliburton

thanks. :D

[Rocketman95]

Oh, I've read it all now.

Booger eater and tattle tale and crybaby are vulgar terms.

Hilarious.

Trader_Jorge's prudeness and very thin skin have been...

EXPOSED

[Trader_Jorge]

Did you not see his highlighted letters in the word "compassionate"? Or did you choose to "not recall that", similar to how you did not recall your verbal assault on Refman's unemployment. That is what I call a very

INDECENT EXPOSURE

[Friendly Fan]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
followed up with:


First it is acceptable to call me a vulgar name. Then you state that it is unacceptable to "unleash profanity". Hypocrisy at its finest, ladies and gents.

EXPOSED

TJ, I pimp you because of your relentless arrogance and condemnation of others. CompASSionate conservative is funny, if you have a sense of humor. I've never said you were an ass, nor would I (nor need I).

As for the booger eating quality, that's clearly hyperbole, and not specifically accusing you. It merely implies that you share the same qualities, without specifically stating that you share the booger eating quality. You could always set the record straight.

TJ, like most who constantly demean others, you can dish it out, but you can't take it. You're a blubbering crybaby when it's dished back to you. I just proved that. wahhhhhhhhh!


The next time you get the urge to compare someone here to Hitler, or some other such nonsense, remember this conversation.


SPANKED!

[Franchise2001]

2 years ago people were falling out of buildings and we seemed to forget about petty arguments. Have some F'ing respect.

[Rocketman95]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
Did you not see his highlighted letters in the word "compassionate"? Or did you choose to "not recall that", similar to how you did not recall your verbal assault on Refman's unemployment. That is what I call a very

INDECENT EXPOSURE

I did not see that. Thanks for exposing it to me.

Whatever verbal assualt I gave my <B>friend</B> Refman was since rectified.

[Mr. Clutch]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Oh, I've read it all now.

Booger eater and tattle tale and crybaby are vulgar terms.

Hilarious.

Trader_Jorge's prudeness and very thin skin have been...

EXPOSED

Eating boogers is vulgar, I know that much.

[Rocketman95]

Originally posted by Mr. Clutch
Eating boogers is vulgar, I know that much.

Very true...my bad.

So is posting something with the sole intention of embarrassing someone. Of course, had the shoe been on the other foot, Trader_Tattletale would've reported the thread and the starter would've been banned.

Dammit, why didn't I think of that. Oh yeah, I'm not a tattletale.

[Friendly Fan]

Originally posted by Franchise2001
2 years ago people were falling out of buildings and we seemed to forget about petty arguments. Have some F'ing respect.

Is anyone MAKING you click on this thread, a thread clearly labelled as one for a serious discussion? You guys that always want to limit the discussions of others need to get a better understanding of this country. Talking is how we air our feelings, share our thougts, collectively reach our decisions. I realize many of you guys are new to adulthood, but this is how we do it.

Good lord, if we all tried to silence everyone who talks about things we don't think should be talked about, this would not be the country it is.

[Friendly Fan]

Originally posted by Mr. Clutch
Eating boogers is vulgar, I know that much.

I never said he eats boogers, but I can't rule it out.

Gee, you guys never seem to get tired of implying that others here are unpatriotic, insensitive, traitors, but let someone imply you might be like a booger eating kid in grade school, and suddenly you find your sensitive side.

[Franchise2001]

Originally posted by Friendly Fan
Is anyone MAKING you click on this thread, a thread clearly labelled as one for a serious discussion? You guys that always want to limit the discussions of others need to get a better understanding of this country. Talking is how we air our feelings, share our thougts, collectively reach our decisions. I realize many of you guys are new to adulthood, but this is how we do it.

Good lord, if we all tried to silence everyone who talks about things we don't think should be talked about, this would not be the country it is.

I completely understand where you are coming from.. One of the beautiful things about our gov't is that we can criticize it and ask important questions like those in the article. Just in my opinion, for today, the correct place to vent would be Almu's thread in the Hangout.

Good Day.

[Mr. Clutch]

Originally posted by Friendly Fan
I never said he eats boogers, but I can't rule it out.

Gee, you guys never seem to get tired of implying that others here are unpatriotic, insensitive, traitors, but let someone imply you might be like a booger eating kid in grade school, and suddenly you find your sensitive side.

u are just saying that cuz u eat boogers.

[Rocketman95]

Originally posted by Friendly Fan
Gee, you guys never seem to get tired of implying that others here are unpatriotic, insensitive, traitors, but let someone imply you might be like a booger eating kid in grade school, and suddenly you find your sensitive side.

Exactly. We've already been accused in this thread of not caring about what happened on 9/11.

[Friendly Fan]

Originally posted by Mr. Clutch
u are just saying that cuz u eat boogers.

Only the crunchy ones.


I have created what I would like to be known as THE TJ WARNING.


WARNING! THE FOLLOWING POST CONTAINS HYPERBOLE WHICH MAY BE IN LETHAL DOSES TO CHILDREN. If you have the mind of the child, please don't read this.

I've edited the original post accordingly.

[Mr. Clutch]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Exactly. We've already been accused in this thread of not caring about what happened on 9/11.

For the record, I think it's only Trader Jorge saying that.

[Friendly Fan]

Originally posted by Franchise2001
I completely understand where you are coming from.. One of the beautiful things about our gov't is that we can criticize it and ask important questions like those in the article. Just in my opinion, for today, the correct place to vent would be Almu's thread in the Hangout.

Good Day.

If anyone were to enter that other thread and talk about these issues, it would be inappropriate. I think we honor the dead by making sure they don't die in vain. We can't do that without addressing the causes, and the day it happened is the one day it is most on everyone's mind.

[Rocketman95]

Originally posted by Mr. Clutch
For the record, I think it's only Trader Jorge saying that.

Oh, I know.

[BlastOff]

Snitches suck.

CASE CLOSED

[Franchise2001]

Alright.. lets get this puppy rolling!

I thought Bush was put straight onto a plane right after the news.. did he really read for 30 min after?!

Sept 11 also gave Bush/Cheney the perfect scenerio to dodge the biggest bullet of them all: ENRON.

[MR. MEOWGI]

Just for the record, I am completely against puppy rolling.

[Mulder]

Anyone else catch DC 9-11 last night.