ClutchFans - Bagwell has 400 HR's

BobFinn*

07-20-2003, 04:37 PM

Bagwell HRs Propel Astros Past Reds 6-3

CINCINNATI - Jeff Bagwell homered twice to become the 35th member of the 400-homer club, leading the Houston Astros to a 6-3 victory over the Cincinnati Reds on Sunday.

Bagwell drove in Houston's first four runs as the Astros beat Cincinnati for the 10th straight time. The Reds have lost seven in a row at home, matching their longest skid since dropping nine straight in Cincinnati in 2001.

Bagwell connected in the fourth and sixth innings off Danny Graves (4-10) to reach 400 homers. Bagwell moved past Dale Murphy (398) and Al Kaline on the career list. Hall-of-Famer Duke Snider is next up in 34th place with 407.

Puedlfor

07-20-2003, 04:48 PM

First Ballot Hall of Famer.

When you grow old, you'll be able to say you were there for the prime of the best National League first baseman in history.

rezdawg

07-20-2003, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by Puedlfor
First Ballot Hall of Famer.

When you grow old, you'll be able to say you were there for the prime of the best National League first baseman in history.

I will happily brag about that.

LonghornFan

07-20-2003, 06:08 PM

Anyone else hear Todd Helton speak at the All Star game? He said something to the fact that all first basemen should look up to Bagwell and appreciate the work ethic and love he brings to the game day in and day out, and that he deserved a spot on the team.

Way to go, Bags!

Ric

07-20-2003, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by LonghornFan
Anyone else hear Todd Helton speak at the All Star game? He said something to the fact that all first basemen should look up to Bagwell and appreciate the work ethic and love he brings to the game day in and day out, and that he deserved a spot on the team.
helton is, w/o a doubt, the most overrated player in baseball. it's not even close. in fact, he may very well be the most overrated player in all of sports.

his road numbers are, by any standard, pedestrian. in six years, his year road numbers (projected out to a full season) read like this: .280/27/92/.712. compare those with his coors field numbers: .378/42/142/.936.

it angers me that helton's even mentioned in the breath as bagwell.

The Real Shady

07-20-2003, 07:10 PM

Props to Bagwell. I really get sick of some fans who constantly ridicule him and go as far to say he sucks. Just because the guy has had less then stellar playoff performances shouldn't take away from what the guy has done for the Astros during the regular season. He is the best Astro of all-time and fans should give him the credit he deserves.

rockets-#1

07-20-2003, 07:23 PM

I love Bagwell and am glad he got 400, however I think with his shoulder problem and the fact he doesn't have too many more years left on his contract, I'd say he won't get 500:(

JPM0016

07-20-2003, 08:17 PM

Jeff Bagwell has 3 years left on his contract
2004, 2005, 2006

right now he would only have to average 33 home runs a year to reach it, so yes he'll hit 500. As i've said before, Jeff had his April slump in May/June. He's shown over the past week or two that he's getting back to normal.

tierre_brown

07-20-2003, 08:20 PM

Even if he doesn't hit 500, his career has been great. I'm just glad I've been here for the ride, and (though a little premature) I'm really glad he's a career Houstonian (unlike a certain other basketball icon...);)

Congrats Bags on 400 !

PS- I hate all those people that say he sucks. He's given his whole life to this organization and put 100% effort into it. Those ungrateful bastards...

NIKEstrad

07-20-2003, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by Ric
helton is, w/o a doubt, the most overrated player in baseball. it's not even close. in fact, he may very well be the most overrated player in all of sports.

his road numbers are, by any standard, pedestrian. in six years, his year road numbers (projected out to a full season) read like this: .280/27/92/.712. compare those with his coors field numbers: .378/42/142/.936.

it angers me that helton's even mentioned in the breath as bagwell.

Those numbers aren't exactly horrid- not all star caliber, but 27 HR and 92 RBIs isn't too bad. Coors isn't the notorious hitters' park anymore either. I recall something abut now keeping the balls in a humidifier so the altitude doesn't affect them. Apparently that was a big factor in them flying out of the park.

Also, it's worth mentioning that Helton is one of the best defensive 1Bs in the league.

Anyhow, if Bagwell gets 10 more bombs this year, he'll need 30 a year the next 3 years. That won't be easy as he advances in age, but fairly reasonable if he stays healthy. One bad injury, and that could seriously ruin his 500 chances. The question will be, if Bagwell's up near 490 or so, would he hang around, perhaps platooning even, to get ot 500?

Puedlfor

07-20-2003, 09:04 PM

The humidifier had only a minor effect on balls hit in coors - it's still a horrendous hitter's park.

The Real Shady

07-20-2003, 09:42 PM

If Bagwell can still hit 30 homeruns in his last year of his contract he shouldn't retire. Hopefully he will want to play for another year or two and sign a contract like Biggio did.

ima_drummer2k

07-20-2003, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by The Real Shady
Props to Bagwell. I really get sick of some fans who constantly ridicule him and go as far to say he sucks. Just because the guy has had less then stellar playoff performances shouldn't take away from what the guy has done for the Astros during the regular season. He is the best Astro of all-time and fans should give him the credit he deserves.
Ditto. He could go down as the greatest Astro ever when it's all said and done and he's done it all with 100% class. He's been playing hurt all year and as usual, you'll never hear him admit it.

He's a Houston icon like Earl, Hakeem and Nolan. Someday we'll be telling our grandkids that we actually saw him play.

BTW, Bagwell usually turns it up after the All Star Break, so hopefully today was a sign of things to come.

How Sweet It Is

07-20-2003, 11:33 PM

Congrats to Jeff! Here's to the chase toward 500 plus a playoff series victory!

JayZ750

07-21-2003, 12:50 AM

400 homeruns = great
Possibilty of 500 = super
Bring a World Series Ring to Houston = Hakeem Olajuwon level.

Bagwell is freaking awesome, but until another player brings a championship to Houston, imo, it is Hakeem, and then everyone else.

arkoe

07-21-2003, 01:09 AM

Originally posted by The Real Shady
Props to Bagwell. I really get sick of some fans who constantly ridicule him and go as far to say he sucks. Just because the guy has had less then stellar playoff performances shouldn't take away from what the guy has done for the Astros during the regular season. He is the best Astro of all-time and fans should give him the credit he deserves.

If we didn't have Bagwell, I don't think we would have made the playoffs those four years.

Bagwell sure does look like he's out of his half season slump. Hope his hitting doesn't fizzle back out like it did at the beginning of the season.

rocketfan83

07-21-2003, 02:44 AM

And to think that he would have pleanty more HR's right now if he didnt spend the majority/prime of career in the AstroDome. Anyways hes still the best astro ever, and ever since Ive been going to astro games hes been there at first base its going to be really weird when hes gone.

DFW_Rockets_Fan

07-21-2003, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by Puedlfor
First Ballot Hall of Famer.

I agree.

Mike and Mike in the Morning on ESPN radio said that he deserved to be in the Hall of Fame. They also said that besides Bonds and maybe Sosa, that his numbers for the last 10 years compared to anybody and yet he has hardly been recognized for it.

Who gets in first, Biggio or Bagwell? Do they retire the same year so they can go in the hall together?

Ric

07-21-2003, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by NIKEstrad
Those numbers aren't exactly horrid- not all star caliber, but 27 HR and 92 RBIs isn't too bad.
they're average, at best. when compared to his disportionate home numbers, they're most certainly horrid. he's a coors field product.

Originally posted by NIKEstrad
The question will be, if Bagwell's up near 490 or so, would he hang around, perhaps platooning even, to get ot 500?
i think bagwell will be lucky to crack 450 at this point. we'll see. his recent slump may have been a result of his shoulder/hard play the past decade starting to take their toll.

i think 500 is tall order. doesn't matter, though, he'd still the best NL 1B in the history of baseball if he quit tomorrow.

pgabriel

07-21-2003, 11:22 AM

PhiSlammaJamma

07-21-2003, 11:24 AM

27 hr for 15 years gives you 400 HR's. I don't think that's average in my opinion. That's in the top 35 ever. Everybody knows he's a coor's field player, granted, but he's still good.

Bagwell is on pace for about 30 HR's this year. He's far from done. Especially if Kent and Lance are going to stick around. He'll get lots of protection.

JPM0016

07-21-2003, 11:26 AM

Bagwell will hit 30 to 35 home runs this year, and in his final season, most likely 2006 he'll be very close to 500 home runs. I think he'll barely get it, it all depends on the shoulder. But right now its obvious he's busted out of his slump.

Groogrux

07-21-2003, 11:37 AM

While Helton's numbers are inflated by Coors, no one else is putting up those types of numbers there. He's still an above-average 1B.

xiki

07-21-2003, 11:52 AM

Puedlfor

07-21-2003, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by Rocketman95
While Helton's numbers are inflated by Coors, no one else is putting up those types of numbers there. He's still an above-average 1B.

Who else is there? An aging Larry Walker? Preston Wilson?

The Rockies lineup isn't good, it's why they aren't very good.

ROXRAN

07-21-2003, 03:09 PM

400 homers is great, and even greater is his leadership for others to be influenced by. albeit the "quiet" type of leadership...

Ric

07-21-2003, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by PhiSlammaJamma
27 hr for 15 years gives you 400 HR's. I don't think that's average in my opinion.
also not average: playing at a peak level for 15 years.

BobFinn*

07-21-2003, 05:07 PM

Not to belittle Bagwell's accomplishment in any way, but...

Hank Aaron had 400 SOLO HR's in his career. How awesome is that?

xiki

07-21-2003, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by BobFinn*
Not to belittle Bagwell's accomplishment in any way, but...

Hank Aaron had 400 SOLO HR's in his career. How awesome is that?

not clutch?

Hank Aaron was excellent. Long term quality, top notch. But, never great. Willie was. The Mick, too. And Roberto.

DVauthrin

07-21-2003, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by pgabriel
If Bagwell doesn't get to 500, he is in no way a first ballot hall of famer.

I beg to differ. Bagwell is as others mentioned, one of the top 5 1B ever. He also in his prime was one of the best defensive 1b ever.

Who can forget the fear he installed in the opposition on the bunt play? I sure can't.

Plus, if jeff had not played in the cavernous dome for 10 years, he would probably be at 500 already. He and biggio carried the astros offense for years, it wasn't until the mid 90's we got guys like berkman, hidalgo, alou, etc to help them score runs.

Jeff Bagwell is the best 1b of this era(last 10-20 years) and will be a first ballot hall of famer. Biggio is a bit more iffy, but he was the best second baseman in baseball for a long time, and one of the top 5 leadoff hitters ever, so he should be first ballot as well.

Just my opinion.

BobFinn*

07-21-2003, 05:28 PM

Bags was on the Dan Patrick (ESPN) show this afternoon. As soon as the have the interview online I will post a link. He sounded really down.

Fore! Hundred
The Dan Patrick Show with Dan and Rob Dibble
July 21st, 2003

Jeff Bagwell, Astros slugger The newest member of the 400-homer club wasn't too charged up..."I don't sound excited? The way I'm playing...you don't get fired up to go out and go 1-for-5...ahhhh, let's talk golf." Jeff collects No.5 jerseys and is looking for a game-used DiMaggio..."it's like 100-thousand...I'm still looking."

pgabriel

07-21-2003, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by DVauthrin
I beg to differ. Bagwell is as others mentioned, one of the top 5 1B ever. He also in his prime was one of the best defensive 1b ever.

Who can forget the fear he installed in the opposition on the bunt play? I sure can't.

Plus, if jeff had not played in the cavernous dome for 10 years, he would probably be at 500 already. He and biggio carried the astros offense for years, it wasn't until the mid 90's we got guys like berkman, hidalgo, alou, etc to help them score runs.

Jeff Bagwell is the best 1b of this era(last 10-20 years) and will be a first ballot hall of famer. Biggio is a bit more iffy, but he was the best second baseman in baseball for a long time, and one of the top 5 leadoff hitters ever, so he should be first ballot as well.

Just my opinion.

First Ballot,

if his career ended today, he isn't even a definite hall of famer. I know he gets hurt from playing in the dome, but his homeruns aren't spectacular in today's age. His career avg. is down to .301.
He needs a little more than 400 hits to reach 2500. He has really good stats, but he needs to reach some of those magic totals to be a first ballot hall of famer. Not that I don't think he won't, I'm fairly sure he will.

Puedlfor

07-21-2003, 06:16 PM

if his career ended today, he isn't even a definite hall of famer.

yeah, he is.

The man, despite playing in one of the best pitcher's parks ever was an offensive machine - his on-base percentage relative to the rest of the league is astounding - and his slugging percentage relative to the league is comparable to the great first basemen in history.

If he retired right now - he'd be the best National League first baseman ever. That's a stone-cold lock for the Hall, that's a first ballot Hall of Famer.

Ric

07-21-2003, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by pgabriel
if his career ended today, he isn't even a definite hall of famer. I know he gets hurt from playing in the dome, but his homeruns aren't spectacular in today's age. His career avg. is down to .301.
dude, if he retired later this afternoon, you couldn't name a better 1b in NL history. not a one. no one's even close.

The Real Shady

07-21-2003, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by Puedlfor
yeah, he is.

The man, despite playing in one of the best pitcher's parks ever was an offensive machine - his on-base percentage relative to the rest of the league is astounding - and his slugging percentage relative to the league is comparable to the great first basemen in history.

If he retired right now - he'd be the best National League first baseman ever. That's a stone-cold lock for the Hall, that's a first ballot Hall of Famer.

A way to look at this objectively would be to rate a similar player from another team. If Frank Thomas ended his career today would he go to the hall? I personally don't think he would but Bagwell and Thomas have virtually the exact same numbers.

Frank Thomas
BA .312
HR 398
RBI 1337
BB 1350
SO 1030
SLG .567
OBP .430

Jeff Bagwell
BA .301
HR 400
RBI 1375
BB 1248
SO 1357
SLG .548
OBP .412

Sportscenter did a thing on Thomas's and Bagwell's similarities this morning and also brought up the fact that they are the same age and were born on the exact same day. Weird.

Puedlfor

07-21-2003, 06:39 PM

Thomas' numbers are inflated by the fact that he plays in a hitters park - and the fact that he's a DH, not a first baseman.

But he's in.

JPM0016

07-21-2003, 06:48 PM

Jeff Bagwell and Frank Thomas are practically the same but Bagwell has been an everyday 1st baseman his entire career who has been great defensively. Frank Thomas is a DH now because he's not good enough to play 1st base every day.

Ric

07-21-2003, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by The Real Shady
If Frank Thomas ended his career today would he go to the hall? I personally don't think he would but Bagwell and Thomas have virtually the exact same numbers.
as others have mentioned, defensively, there's no comparison; bagwell's also been an asset on the basepaths -- his baserunning skills are severely underrated; he may very well be among the best at his position.

thomas also has the stigma of not being very likeable. granted, bagwell's not flashy and he's had to play his entire career in houston, but i think he's well-respected by his peers and those who cover the game. thomas also plays in a league riddled with great first basemen throughout its history and he'll be compared to them and may not stack up. (example, does he get in before rafael palmiero?)

lastly, if you look at thomas' career, his numbers are a bit inflated by some staggeringly good years early. bagwell's been far more consistent.

(i still think thomas'll get in, though.)

PhiSlammaJamma

07-22-2003, 08:17 AM

They also have the same birthday. Kinda strange.

Damn. Someone beat me to it.

wrath_of_khan

07-23-2003, 03:04 PM

Well, apparently Sports Illustrated doesn't agree with us that Bagwell's a slam dunk for Cooperstown.

Just got my latest issue -- the one with Kobe on the front. Inside, there's an article called "Eight Men In" that talks about the 8 current big leaguers "who leave no doubt that their portraits will hang in the Hall." According the SI, "The best of the best bear the HOF stamp long before any votes are cast."

SI's 8?

Maddux
Clemens
A-Rod
Sosa
Bonds
Piazza
Pedro
Big Unit

OK, I can't argue with those 8, but why not make it an even 9 and include Bagwell? Pretty lame leaving Bags off the list the same week he hits his 400th ...

MadMax

07-23-2003, 03:07 PM

honestly, i would be more concerned if Bags were on that list!! damn jinx! :)

reallyBaked

07-23-2003, 03:32 PM

i dont agree with A-Rod being on that list already..

I don't think if he never played another game that he would automatically get in...

he has done some amazing things so far...but HOF without a doubt already?

robbie380

07-23-2003, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by JPM0016
Jeff Bagwell and Frank Thomas are practically the same but Bagwell has been an everyday 1st baseman his entire career who has been great defensively. Frank Thomas is a DH now because he's not good enough to play 1st base every day.

just a side note....big hurt's offensive numbers playing 1b compared to dh are flat out insane. i know he isn't amazing in the field but take a look. http://bigleaguers.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/4527/situational?year=career&type=Batting

robbie380

07-23-2003, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by reallyBaked
i dont agree with A-Rod being on that list already..

I don't think if he never played another game that he would automatically get in...

he has done some amazing things so far...but HOF without a doubt already?

a-rod has pretty much put up numbers better than any other shortstop in the relatively short period of time he has played. plus he is a great fielder to boot. so yeah...right now he is a 1st ballot HOF.

MadMax

07-24-2003, 02:52 PM

http://msn.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/bp/1584958.html

1990
August 30: Boston traded Jeff Bagwell to Houston for Larry Andersen.

The mother of all moronic deadline deals. Bagwell was a third baseman in the minors who had demonstrated the ability to hit for a very high average, was young, and actually looked something like a young Wade Boggs. Andersen was a 37-year-old right-handed middle reliever, albeit a low-risk one.

Andersen pitched a total of 22 innings over 15 games for Boston, and is best known for being quotable and disliking Rickey Henderson. Bagwell's the best player ever to wear an Astros uniform, recently hit his 400th home run, and will roll into Cooperstown on the first ballot. Red Sox GM Lou Gorman's mammoth blunder was the wakeup call for many people to more carefully examine minor league performances. In fairness to Gorman, Bagwell has demonstrated greater power in the majors than in the minors, but this was still an inexcusable deal.

Advantage: Houston is an understatement.

pgabriel

07-24-2003, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by wrath_of_khan
Well, apparently Sports Illustrated doesn't agree with us that Bagwell's a slam dunk for Cooperstown.

Just got my latest issue -- the one with Kobe on the front. Inside, there's an article called "Eight Men In" that talks about the 8 current big leaguers "who leave no doubt that their portraits will hang in the Hall." According the SI, "The best of the best bear the HOF stamp long before any votes are cast."

SI's 8?

Maddux
Clemens
A-Rod
Sosa
Bonds
Piazza
Pedro
Big Unit

OK, I can't argue with those 8, but why not make it an even 9 and include Bagwell? Pretty lame leaving Bags off the list the same week he hits his 400th ...

Thank you for posting that, I can't believe Houston fans think the guy is a first ballot hall of famer. Saying he is the best 1st baseman in NL history is like saying someone's the best left fielder in NL history, that's true, but it comes down to offensive production in this era, especially when you play one of the easiest positions in the field. Not saying its all about home runs either, but if he was finished today, he wouldn't be first ballot.

MadMax

07-24-2003, 03:10 PM

pgabriel -- if he finishes with around 450-500 HR's..given a career average near .300...he's a lock for first ballot...he's a HOF lock, anyway...but if he does those things, he'll lock in first ballot. he's very close. particularly as a strong defensive 1B.

pgabriel

07-24-2003, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by MadMax
pgabriel -- if he finishes with around 450-500 HR's..given a career average near .300...he's a lock for first ballot...he's a HOF lock, anyway...but if he does those things, he'll lock in first ballot. he's very close. particularly as a strong defensive 1B.

I think he will finish with 450 to 500, I'm just saying he isn't a lock today.

Buck Turgidson

07-24-2003, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by MadMax
1990
August 30: Boston traded Jeff Bagwell to Houston for Larry Andersen.
Revisionist bs. Of course, looking back on it now, it *was* a terrible deal. At the time, however, it made a ton of sense:
1) Sox were in a tight pennant chase & needed bully help;
2) Andersen was very, very good, and pitched well for Boston;
3) The Sox had Scott Cooper and most everybody in MLB viewed him as a great prospect;
4) Bagwell had ZERO power in the minors - nobody, *nobody* thought that he would turn into the player he did.

Trades involving minor leaguers are always iffy propositions, every single club in MLB has traded away a great player, most more than one, but to blast Gorman in hindsight 13 years later is ridiculous.

Timing

07-24-2003, 04:14 PM

I think Bagwell would be first ballot if he gets to 500, that's such a guideline for so many people. Otherwise I don't think either of them will quite get in on that first ballot. Not having any post season success will hurt them with many and they've never been high publicity guys. It's too bad Bagwell and Biggio had to play in the Astrodome though, if they'd played in a decent offensive park you could probably add 10% to all of their stats.

JPM0016

07-24-2003, 04:23 PM

Baseball Prospectus said this

1990
August 30: Boston traded Jeff Bagwell to Houston for Larry Andersen.

The mother of all moronic deadline deals. Bagwell was a third baseman in the minors who had demonstrated the ability to hit for a very high average, was young, and actually looked something like a young Wade Boggs. Andersen was a 37-year-old right-handed middle reliever, albeit a low-risk one.

Andersen pitched a total of 22 innings over 15 games for Boston, and is best known for being quotable and disliking Rickey Henderson. Bagwell's the best player ever to wear an Astros uniform, recently hit his 400th home run, and will roll into Cooperstown on the first ballot. Red Sox GM Lou Gorman's mammoth blunder was the wakeup call for many people to more carefully examine minor league performances. In fairness to Gorman, Bagwell has demonstrated greater power in the majors than in the minors, but this was still an inexcusable deal.

PhiSlammaJamma

07-24-2003, 04:30 PM

One thing completely forgotten here is that the Hall of Fame is about substance as much as it is about your stats. Bagwell's peers respect him more than almost any other player. You can't say that about Thomas. There's a reson for that. And it's not because Bagwell is a nice guy. It's everything. It's clutch hits, it's leadership, it's respect. That is what carries into the Hall of Fame. I think heds be first ballot easy if he retired today.

Biggio is going to get a lot of play from the baseball writers. He's also got the respect factor. Although not nearly as big as Bagwell's. So Biggio is on the edge. No doubt. He may need to hit some milestones to be considered. When it comes down to the voting, I think people will waiver on voting for him, but ultimately, he's the kind of guy you lean towards rather than away from.

Puedlfor

07-24-2003, 09:32 PM

Jeff Bagwell is a First Ballot hall-of-famer.
RIGHT NOW. If he retired after this year, he'd be in Cooperstown in five years.

There is no debate about this, he's a stone cold lock. If you think otherwise, you are incorrect.

bamaslammer

07-25-2003, 02:57 AM

Bagwell is definitely one of the top ten best all-around first basemen of all time. I know that averages and HR totals are way up from the bygone days, but 400 dingers is nothing to sniff at. Bags is a rare player who can hit for power plus who has one of the best gloves ever at first. He is a definite first ballot H of Famer even if his career ended today.

BigM

07-25-2003, 04:49 AM

if bagwell started his career today, in minute maid park, in the "juiced ball era" his career homers would surpass 600.

but look where this man spent his prime playing days- the friggin astrodome, and yet his accomplishments remain amazing.

right this minute he is absolutely guaranteed a spot in the hall. no doubt about it.

MadMax

07-25-2003, 09:46 AM

i was reading through the paper today...bagwell has a couple of impressive "only person in mlb history" records

only player EVER to record 6 straight seasons of 30 homers...100 rbis...and 100 walks. that's really quite ridiculous.

only first baseman to EVER have a 30/30 season.

that's pretty damn impressive.

deepellumrocket

07-25-2003, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by MadMax

only first baseman to EVER have a 30/30 season.

that's pretty damn impressive.

Oh, I loved it early in his career when he was stealing bases. A lot times he would steal and the catcher wouldn't even throw down because he would get such an incredible jump. Not because he was that fast, but because he read the pitchers so well.

pgabriel

07-25-2003, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by Puedlfor
Jeff Bagwell is a First Ballot hall-of-famer.
RIGHT NOW. If he retired after this year, he'd be in Cooperstown in five years.

There is no debate about this, he's a stone cold lock. If you think otherwise, you are incorrect.

I guess that's why Sports Illustrated didn't list him, because there is no debate. I guess they are just incorrect.

bobrek

07-25-2003, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by pgabriel
I guess that's why Sports Illustrated didn't list him, because there is no debate. I guess they are just incorrect.

It's not like they haven't been wrong before.

Incidentally, for those wondering why they chose 8, it is because they could title their article "8 Men In" as opposed to the movie named "8 Men Out".

Bagwell may not have made their list of 8 and it's hard to argue with those they included but that does not mean he is NOT a first ballot HOFer.

The real question is what abourt Rafael Palmeiro? He could conceivably end up with 600 HRs, 3000 hits and a .290 career average if he can play 3 more years (not out of the question as a DH). Regardless, he should definitely hit 550 with 2850 hits. It seems he has posted high, consistent numbers with little notice.

pgabriel

07-25-2003, 11:05 AM

First and Foremost
First-ballot Hall of Famers with year inducted, primary position, ballots cast and votes received -- listed by BBWAA voting percentage:
Player Year Pos. Ballots Votes Pct.
Tom Seaver 1992 RHP 430 425 98.84
Nolan Ryan 1999 RHP 497 491 98.79
Ty Cobb 1936 CF 226 222 98.23
George Brett 1999 3B 497 488 98.19
Hank Aaron 1982 RF 415 406 97.83
Mike Schmidt 1995 3B 460 444 96.52
Johnny Bench 1989 C 447 431 96.42
Steve Carlton 1994 LHP 455 436 95.82
Honus Wagner 1936 SS 226 215 95.13
Babe Ruth 1936 RF 226 215 95.13
Willie Mays 1979 CF 432 409 94.68
Carl Yastrzemski 1989 LF 447 423 94.63
Bob Feller 1962 RHP 160 150 93.75
Reggie Jackson 1993 RF 423 396 93.62
Ted Williams 1966 LF 302 282 93.38
Stan Musial 1969 LF 340 317 93.24
Jim Palmer 1990 RHP 441 411 92.57
Brooks Robinson 1983 3B 374 344 91.98
Ozzie Smith 2002 SS 472 433 91.74
Christy Mathewson 1936 RHP 226 205 90.71
Rod Carew 1991 2B 443 401 90.52
Frank Robinson 1982 RF 415 370 89.16
Al Kaline 1980 RF 385 340 88.31
Mickey Mantle 1974 CF 365 322 88.22
Sandy Koufax 1972 LHP 396 344 86.87
Eddie Murray 2003 1B 496 423 85.28
Dave Winfield 2001 RF 515 435 84.47
Bob Gibson 1981 RHP 401 337 84.04
Ernie Banks 1977 SS 383 321 83.81
Walter Johnson 1936 RHP 226 189 83.63
Warren Spahn 1973 LHP 380 315 82.89
Willie Stargell 1988 LF 427 352 82.44
Kirby Puckett 2001 OF 515 423 82.14
Joe Morgan 1990 2B 444 363 81.76
Willie McCovey 1986 1B 425 346 81.41
Lou Brock 1985 LF 395 315 79.75
Jackie Robinson 1962 2B 160 124 77.50
Robin Yount 1999 SS 497 385 77.46

*********************************
This is a list of all first ballot hall of famers in the history of Baseball's hall of fame. Absent from that list, although it is ridiculous that he is, Jimmie Fox, a first baseman who won the triple crown, batted over 300 for his career with over 500 home runs. There are only two first baseman on the list, both have over 500 home runs for their career.

First base is a power position, and Jeff Bagwell, even though he's hurt by the Dome plays in an era of juiced up stats. Right now he's not a first ballot Hall of Famer.

bobrek

07-25-2003, 11:22 AM

And "Right now" Alex Rodriguez is not a first ballot hall of famer. In other words, If Rodriguez's career ended today he would not make the hall of fame.

pgabriel

07-25-2003, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by bobrek
And "Right now" Alex Rodriguez is not a first ballot hall of famer. In other words, If Rodriguez's career ended today he would not make the hall of fame.

That's been my whole point all along, some people disagree with that.

Puedlfor

07-25-2003, 01:54 PM

Except that if he retired right now, he'd be the best National League firstbaseman ever - and one of the top five first baseman of all-time.

And better than both Murray and McCovey - the two first ballot Hall-of-Famers.

pgabriel

07-25-2003, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by Puedlfor
Except that if he retired right now, he'd be the best National League firstbaseman ever - and one of the top five first baseman of all-time.

And better than both Murray and McCovey - the two first ballot Hall-of-Famers.

Now you are just being silly. Better numbers than Murray, and McCovey has over 500 home runs playing in a pitcher's era.

Puedlfor

07-25-2003, 05:57 PM

Originally posted by pgabriel
Now you are just being silly. Better numbers than Murray, and McCovey has over 500 home runs playing in a pitcher's era.

Am I?

Murray didn't get on base at nearly the clip Bagwell did.

For his career, Murray posted a respectable .359 OBP, against an opponents average of .328. This was a respectable 109% of the competition. For his career, Murray slugged .476, against an opponent's average of .399, 120% of what his opponents put forth. That's a nice career. Combined, we outperformed the league by 129%.

McCovey got on base at a .374 clip for his career, compared with .326 for the league. 115%, that's good. McCovey hammered the ball at a .515 clip, the league managed a paltry .388 at Candlestick. 133% - damn that's good. Combined, he outperformed the league by 148%.

How about Bagwell? Playing the prime of his career in the Dome, Bagwell put up an incredible .414 OBP, while opponents struggled to a .336 clip. 123% better than the league. I won't even mention that on-base percentage is a lot more valuable than slugging. But Bagwell's slugging is not to be trifled with - he has a .551 SLG%, compared to the robust league figure(even deflated by the Dome, as it were) of .417. 132% better. In total, Bagwell was 155% better than the league was.

Better than Murray and Better than McCovey.

But hey, maybe like those two he should hang around till he's 42 and barely a useful player so he can get some arbitrary milestone that people can parade around.

BigM

07-25-2003, 06:04 PM

on espn's frontpage they have neyer's 12 picks for the hall.

surprisingly he has biggio making it and bagwell missing the cut. :confused:

catchers: piazza and pudge

infielders: alomar and biggio

outfielders: bonds, griffey, henderson, sosa

pitchers: clemens, glavine, maddux, johnson

missing the cut:

bagwell, mcgriff, larkin, pedro, palmeiro, thomas.

not yet:

a-rod

DVauthrin

07-25-2003, 06:16 PM

Neyer is overrexaggerating the media's lack of notoriety for bagwell's accomplishments.

Bagwell's numbers as pued exquisitely demonstrated, are first ballot worthy.

Then when you have two years as a First Basemen like this 43 homers, 31 steals in 97 and 42 homers 30 steals in 99 he is a stone cold lock.

40-30? One of the rarest numbers ever? By a first baseman? Twice? Plus 7 other seasons of more than 10 sb's which is really good as a 1b and 3 of those over 15 which is excellent?

He is a first ballot lock, no ifs ands or buts about it.

francis 4 prez

07-25-2003, 10:56 PM

uhh did neyer get a memo about no first basemen being allowed in the hall of fame that i missed out on?

and yeah, how exactly is biggio getting in if bagwell doesn't.

since when i open the link i just get a blank window, did he give reasoning or was it just a list?

Ric

07-26-2003, 12:39 AM

Originally posted by francis 4 prez
uhh did neyer get a memo about no first basemen being allowed in the hall of fame that i missed out on?
neyer missed the boat beeg time on this one. (btw, like the magazine from which it iminates, i'm not even going to acknowledge SI's contribution).

he's in; there's no doubt about it. if it takes two tries, they oughta burn the damn place down.

Originally posted by pgabriel
First base is a power position, and Jeff Bagwell, even though he's hurt by the Dome plays in an era of juiced up stats. Right now he's not a first ballot Hall of Famer.
which is what makes bagwell such a special player -- he fits the stereotype and blows it all to hell at the same time. both his glove work and baserunning skills are nearly unparalleled among first basemen. he is the definitive complete player, exceling at every facet of the game. hell, i think he's more deserving than mcgwire.

if he can maintain the .300 average, he's gonna crack 450 HRs with ease after spending, what? 10 years in the dome? that's remarkable. god, what he would've done had the red sox kept him....

Beckman

07-26-2003, 10:54 AM

I think Bagwell is a sure hall of famer, first ballot if he continues to put up numbers for a couple of years, but his playoff numbers hurt him. No series wins, .174 batting average, 2x as many k's as hits, 4 career postseason RBI's, no extra base hits.

Winning a championship isn't as important to your hall of fame resume in baseball as it is in football, but a lot of people look at those numbers. Bonds gets ripped for bad postseason performances. His playoff numbers were terrible, until last season.