Gammons: McLane gives go-ahead to add to payroll

[desihooper]

Wow, I hope Peter Gammons isn't just throwing this out there hoping it sticks!! (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gammons/story?id=1580116)


Shock? Astros owner Drayton McLane on Saturday told Gerry Hunsicker that he will free up some money to trade for a starter. Now Hunsicker has to find someone in the thin market.

[rocketfan83]

I'll believe it when it happens

[Raven Lunatic]

The way we are playing right now, I don't know if we need to change anything. I think this team will be fine once we get our starters healthy.

[BobFinn*]

Cory Lidle, Ted Lilly or Kris Benson seem to be available. Some other starters should also become available after the All-Star break. Look for the Stros to land a decent starter. The Hun is fine GM when it comes to trades.

[PhiSlammaJamma]

And the Rockets promised us a great logo. But you know how it goes :)

[desihooper]

The crowds have picked up over the past homestand. We have one homestand left before the end of the month, it's a weekend series against the Cubs, that should draw well also. In August we play 18 of our 28 games at home including a 12-game homestand to conclude the month (3 game sets with the Cubs, Reds, Dodgers, Padres) Picking up another piece to stick into our rotation might entice more people to come out and watch the team as it finishes up. The team that makes the deal to improve themselves the most out of the Astros, Cardinals, and Cubs may distance themselves from the rest in this division. Putting a winning team on the field is a proven way to get AIS in Houston, remember, we're in first place. If McLane steps up and commits to "Being a Champion" he could reap a double benefit, more money at the gates and another banner to hang (affix?) in Minute Maid.

I tend to think that we'll be hearing the following line, "we added an MVP-type player and a Cy-Young caliber pitcher to our roster in Kent and Oswalt. We're hoping Miller can return to form and the three of these guys can carry us to the finish."

Maybe they'll add another arm in the bully to bridge the gap to Lidge, Dotel, and Wagner. That way, you make it a 5 inning game and go with your four hammers after that. It's a little unconventional, but it may make economic sense for the mid-market Astros.

Biggio
Ensberg/Blum
Bagwell
Berkman
Kent
Hidalgo
Ausmus
Everett

Oswalt
Miller
(insert new pitcher here: Benson, Ponson, Lidle, etc.)
Robertson
Vallone

6th-9th innings
Redding
Lidge
Dotel
Wagner

might just be the recipe for second half success for the Astros

[BALLhog 247 365]

the astros also need a right handed hitter coming off the bench...our bench is full of left/switch hitting batters. seeing brian hunter be our only option against a left hander last night doesnt make me happy...

[BALLhog 247 365]

kris benson is consistently inconsistent, so i dont think he would be what the astros need. i think ponson is the astros best option...

[Lil Francis]

Colon would be a nice addition to the team but I know McClane wouldn't want to take on his contract.

[Behad]

No way we drop Redding from the rotation. Villone proved to be invaluable two years ago with his versitility out of the pen or starting. He would be the candidate to get moved should we acquire another SP.

[Drewdog]

Originally posted by Behad
No way we drop Redding from the rotation. Villone proved to be invaluable two years ago with his versitility out of the pen or starting. He would be the candidate to get moved should we acquire another SP.

As evidenced by todays performance (6 1/3 IP 0 Runs) I agree in that Redding is best used as a starter.

Villone will prove to be more ammo for the bullpen.

[NIKEstrad]

Behad- Redding had a very good start today, but I wouldn't say no way. Frankly, the guy just scares me when it comes to him starting games in September or perhaps October. There are very few pitchers in the majors that get as rattled as he does if he runs into trouble. He no doubt has great stuff, and I wouldn't mind seeing him make a move to the pen a la Dotel, but I'd agree Villone goes to the pen before he does.

The names out there are Ponson, Benson, Lilly, and Lidle. Depending on the $$, perhaps we'd take a peek at Weaver. Odalis Perez is apparently out there, but the Dodgers are looking for a big bat, and we can't afford to move Hidalgo at this point, so a 3 way would be necessary to bring Perez to Houston.

I'd pass on Lilly, because he seems like a lefty version of Redding-prone to mental blowups. Benson, Ponson, and Lidle are pretty much a pick 'em IMO, though I think Benson has the most talent (and most recent arm troubles). If the CWS decide to trade any of their pitchers, I'd prefer Buerhle because young, stud lefties are the hardest to get. Another guy that might become available is Javier Vazquez, who would be the #1 guy to get IMO.

It'll be interesting to see what it takes to acquire these pitchers. Since Drayton has apparently given the go ahead, it means we'd take on the salary which lessens the cost in terms of prospects. I'd guess the guys teams will be looking at are Whiteman, Buck, Lane, Rosario, and Burke. IMO, Burke is the only untouchable (and of course, Lidge and Robertson should be no ways) on that list.

Could this be the prospective owner (Tillman Fertita) that was rumored a few days ago telling Drayton that he wants the team to be good when he takes over?

[DVauthrin]

Get Kris Benson please.

The pirates are just mishandling him and he would flourish as an astro, and is young.

Avoid a rental like colon unless we have no other options. But buerhle is intriguing and I definitely like vasquez and lilly(though the a's only will trade him for a big bat in return. He's been rumored to toronto for jd drew with STL getting lidle. That would weaken St louis imho.

Ponson i'm iffy on, and Lidle, a rental, I'd avoid.

But this is great news.

[rezdawg]

Im not sure if it is worth it to go out and find another starter. Honestly, I dont see it as much of an upgrade. I would rather go and find a relief pitcher. That way, it would be a "relief" to the arms of the guys in the bullpen right now. It can keep them from being burned out when crunch time rolls around later in the season.

[arkoe]

During the time that Villone has been with the club, he's pitched way better overall than Redding has. That being said, I would still rather let Redding start to help his development than put him in the pen.

I kind of doubt the Pirates would be willing to help us out, seeing as how they're in our division and all.

[DVauthrin]

I know arkoe, I was just stating my favorite pitcher on the market.

Rezdawg,

That 3rd starter to complement miller/oswalt will be handy in the postseason.

Can you imagine oswalt-miller-vasquez or oswalt-miller-benson.

Those would be tremendously intimidating. Our relief pitching is fine as is, and benitez would only weaken it as he is overrated.

[rocks_fan]

Yeah arkoe I'd be a bit surprised if the Pie-Roots would hand over Benson. They'll probably see how they do after the All-Star break before they start thinking about trying to unload him. With them in 4th place and 7.5 out, they might go ahead and let him go if they want to save his salary (4.3 mill.) and if they can get something decent in return.

As for Benson himself, he doesn't seem to be very motivated at the moment to pitch well. McClendon is bashing him, and he doesn't seem to have much success in his career (34-37, 4.21 ERA). But, this IS the Pirates we're talking about, so it's not like he's likely to get a lot of run support. He's got the talent, it's just a matter of putting it out on the field.

[desihooper]

Pirates unloading begins (http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2003/0720/1583165.html)

So now we know the Pirates have started to clean house. If we could get one of their starters mentioned in this article, and perhaps Scott Sauerbeck to shore up the relief corps, I think we will accomplish both our goals with one trade. Someone to provide some relief for the Big Three in the pen and someone, Benson(?), who can step in behind Oswalt and Miller to give us a stud, young, top three in the rotation. Milo was talking on the radio the other day and said a change of scenery might be what Benson is looking for. Come on Gerry!!

[bobrek]

Which starter would you replace in the current rotation?

Oswalt - no
Miller - no
Robertson - has won 8 in a row
Villone - 2-0 with an ERA under 2.50
Redding - 2 good starts in a row and a number of other quality starts

The question becomes:

At this point in time, who is Benson better than in the Astros current ortation?

[haven]

bobrek:

Villone has a life-time ERA of 4.97. Benson's is 4.27. Benson is a much, much better pitcher. He's also got better stamina.

I worry about the inconsistency, too. But I have trouble believing that a pitcher that's pitched so much better over the course of his career wouldn't immediately replace a journeyman demi-starter like Villone. There is, of course, a question of whether Benson is worth that much more at the expense required to get and pay for him - but once we got him, it's an easy choice.

I've always liked Benson's stuff, and have been surprised he hasn't been more successful. His salary isn't too exorbitant, and there's a chance he could fulfill his potential w/a change of scenery. Even if not, he'd be a long-term improvement over Villone.

[NIKEstrad]

bobrek- How long do you expect Villone to keep this up? Redding goes through nervous breakdowns on the mound like Tweak.

Nonetheless, here's an interesting head scratcher from CBS Sportsline's Rumor Mill (http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/MLB_SC-RUMOR)

Mariners
Updated: 7/17/2003

The Seattle Post reported Mariners GM Pat Gillick said there had been two "serious" discussions among numerous trade contacts. One of them might have involved Houston, which two weeks ago reportedly was willing to part with lefty Ron Villone.

Wow, they talk like Villone is the stud 23 year old left hander, rather than the guy we pulled off the scrap heap with a minor league free agent contract.

If you can pull off a trade for Benson or Ponson (Ponson is my preference, and is mentioned in the above link as well to be heading to an NL team), and then get some sort of decent right handed bench option plus a prospect for Villone, that's a no brainer.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by haven
bobrek:

Villone has a life-time ERA of 4.97. Benson's is 4.27. Benson is a much, much better pitcher. He's also got better stamina.

I worry about the inconsistency, too. But I have trouble believing that a pitcher that's pitched so much better over the course of his career wouldn't immediately replace a journeyman demi-starter like Villone. There is, of course, a question of whether Benson is worth that much more at the expense required to get and pay for him - but once we got him, it's an easy choice.

I've always liked Benson's stuff, and have been surprised he hasn't been more successful. His salary isn't too exorbitant, and there's a chance he could fulfill his potential w/a change of scenery. Even if not, he'd be a long-term improvement over Villone.

I totally agree, but Villone has given the Astros 6 straight quality starts and could easily be 6-0 with a little bullpen/offensive help.

My point is that in 4 days I would rather see Villone start than Benson.

I have absolutely no problems with Benson as a long term potential answer as a starter.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by NIKEstrad
If you can pull off a trade for Benson or Ponson (Ponson is my preference, and is mentioned in the above link as well to be heading to an NL team), and then get some sort of decent right handed bench option plus a prospect for Villone, that's a no brainer.

I agree 100%.

[Major]

I totally agree, but Villone has given the Astros 6 straight quality starts and could easily be 6-0 with a little bullpen/offensive help.

My point is that in 4 days I would rather see Villone start than Benson.

I have absolutely no problems with Benson as a long term potential answer as a starter.

Not only that, but Villone kicked ass in the minors for us too - this isn't just 4 or 5 starts. He's been great all year. Players change - sometimes something just "clicks" - like it did for Mlicki that one year (who some people here kept insisting was the worst pitcher in all of baseball). If we made a trade for a starter, I'd move Redding to the pen. He has serious issues going deep in ball games, and 2 starts doesn't do it for me. He's gotten worse every month until July. Plus, Redding in the bullpen seems a good fit for him - let him go out there and throw fastballs for an inning or two.

(This, of course, assumes he's not needed in the trade).

[Puedlfor]

Mlicki's ERA with the Astros was higher than his career average. Villone is pitching well, but it's a fluke - we get a new starter, he goes to the pen. It's been nice that Villone is pitching better, but it's a simple fluke. Ride it while it lasts, but don't plan on it continuing.

Under no circumstances should Redding go to the pen over Villone.

[Major]

Mlicki's ERA with the Astros was higher than his career average. Villone is pitching well, but it's a fluke - we get a new starter, he goes to the pen. It's been nice that Villone is pitching better, but it's a simple fluke. Ride it while it lasts, but don't plan on it continuing.


I disagree. I leave Villone in the rotation until *he* proves its a fluke. Besides which, Redding is more useful in the pen than Villone is.

[RIET]

when is Rosario coming back. He looked like a legitimate starter.

[Puedlfor]

Originally posted by RIET
when is Rosario coming back. He looked like a legitimate starter.

Dunno, but I can't imagine he'll be at the major league level when he does.

[RIET]

Originally posted by Puedlfor
Dunno, but I can't imagine he'll be at the major league level when he does.

I thought he was awesome when he pitched. You could tell he has a no-fear mentality.

Redding has major league stuff but is easily flustered. Id much rather have Rosario who could devlop into a more consistent pitcher and a pretty good #3 or 4.

[Puedlfor]

I agree he was awesome, but unless I'm mistaken - his call-up was an emergency move because of injuries. I think the Astros would rather have him spend the remainder of the year in AAA when he get's back from his shoulder injury.


on Redding : Just tell him to breath through his eyeballs, and he'll be ok.

[Drewdog]

Originally posted by RIET
when is Rosario coming back. He looked like a legitimate starter.

I saw him pitch in Round Rock last year. Kid has amazing stuff and will be legit in a few years.

[RIET]

Originally posted by Drewdog
I saw him pitch in Round Rock last year. Kid has amazing stuff and will be legit in a few years.

Both Rosario and Carlos Hernandez have very good arms. Theyre fragile as Brad Lidge but could be utilized out of the bullpen if necessary.

I would much prefer a Rosario than a Kirk Sarloos or Pete Munro.

[The Real Shady]

Does anyone know anything about Kirk Bullinger on the Astros AAA team. He's got a 1.76 ERA in 39 games with 15 saves. I'm curious as to why he hasn't been brought up yet.

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/minorleagues/team_stats.jsp?c_id=hou&minor_id=PCLNRL

[haven]

Major:

So you let him pitch until he screws up? While that might be a good idea with a rookie, Villone is a known quantity. I'm grateful that he's done better than expected so far, but it's foolish to keep sticking your finger in the oven, hoping it doesn't get burned.

He's a decent pitcher with average stuff. Why tempt fate by pretending he's more?

[Major]

So you let him pitch until he screws up?

Yeah, why not? He's your 5th starter - he's not expected to pitch quality games every time out. If he does, let him keep doing it. It's not like we're talking about starting him in a must-win playoff game or something.

It's not like Kris Benson or anyone else is pitching better than him right now, so stick to what's working.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by haven
Major:

So you let him pitch until he screws up? While that might be a good idea with a rookie, Villone is a known quantity. I'm grateful that he's done better than expected so far, but it's foolish to keep sticking your finger in the oven, hoping it doesn't get burned.

He's a decent pitcher with average stuff. Why tempt fate by pretending he's more?

So far though he has been rock solid. It's not like the Astros are having to win his starts 7-5. Villone deserves to stay in the rotation and he deserves to have more than one bad game.

In his 6 starts he has given up 0,2,3,2,2,1 runs. He has only allowed 42 baserunners in 36 innings. That ratio is better than anyone on the team except Dotel and Wagner so he has not been in a lot of trouble. Villone has been their best starter since they let him pitch.

[haven]

Bobrek, Major:

But the important question isn't "how has he been pitching" but rather "how will he pitch in the future?"

The course of a career is a better predictor than a few games, even over a relatively short span of time.

I understand your argument, though. So here's my question to both of you:

Say, we trade for Benson tomorrow. How much does Villone have to screw up to be replaced in the starting line-up by Benson? Please be relatively specific.

Just trying to guage how strongly you feel about the guy...

[haven]

Bobrek, Major:

But the important question isn't "how has he been pitching" but rather "how will he pitch in the future?"

The course of a career is a better predictor than a few games, even over a relatively short span of time. My personal opinion is that he's had such a mediocre career and has such average stuff that he deserves very little faith.

I understand your argument, though. So here's my question to both of you:

Say, we trade for Benson tomorrow. How much does Villone have to screw up to be replaced in the starting line-up by Benson? Please be relatively specific.

Just trying to guage how strongly you feel about the guy...

[The Real Shady]

On the Ch. 2 Sports show at 10:30 tonight they said that the Astros could be dangling Ensberg in trade talks.

[Major]

But the important question isn't "how has he been pitching" but rather "how will he pitch in the future?"

The course of a career is a better predictor than a few games, even over a relatively short span of time. My personal opinion is that he's had such a mediocre career and has such average stuff that he deserves very little faith.


Players have random goofy career years all the time. It's most likely a fluke, but it's worth finding out. You'll never finds the diamonds in the rough if you don't give them a chance.

Say, we trade for Benson tomorrow. How much does Villone have to screw up to be replaced in the starting line-up by Benson? Please be relatively specific.


Depends. Is he getting hit hard and giving up lots of runs? Or it just some bad luck? A few bad pitches? Judging pitching isn't just about the numbers so there's no way to say "well, if he does this or that, he should be benched".

Benson, though, has an ERA of 5.00 right now. He wouldn't really be my choice for a new starter. I'd rather have Rosario for free than trade for Benson.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by haven
But the important question isn't "how has he been pitching" but rather "how will he pitch in the future?"

I don't think that's the important question here. Villone's had a superb year up until now, Benson has not. It's not like Benson is a Randy Johnson type of pitcher, he's not. His career to date would not warrant removing a 2003 Villone from our rotation. Now, if Villone reverts to old form, maybe you replace him with Benson if the others in the starting rotation don't warrant removal either.

I doubt you could find a manager who would replace a 2003 Villone with a 2003 Benson, the past (even though that .7 run difference in ERA isn't that impressive) be damned.

[DaDakota]

Originally posted by The Real Shady
On the Ch. 2 Sports show at 10:30 tonight they said that the Astros could be dangling Ensberg in trade talks.

That would be a big mistake....Ensberg is going to be huge....if they trade him it would be like Boston trading Bagwell.

I sure hope Hunsiker is smarter then that.

DD

[JPM0016]

you don't take a pitcher out of the starting rotation based on what could happen 2 months from now. If he's pitching great you keep him in the rotation. Kris Benson is overrated. He's never lived up to his potential and probably never will. To be honest i'm happy with the astros team as it is. All along i knew if we could play decent in the first half the team could take off in the 2nd half. And here we are... if we are able to get a guy like Sidney Ponson (Highly Unlikely) for a few minor leaguers i might do it but there isn't really anyone out there worth getting.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by The Real Shady
On the Ch. 2 Sports show at 10:30 tonight they said that the Astros could be dangling Ensberg in trade talks.

The only thing off the top of my head that I could think of is a Ensberg/Lane for Beltran trade. However, I can't see us benching Biggio, so I'm not sure what we'd do with him.

[RIET]

Originally posted by DaDakota
That would be a big mistake....Ensberg is going to be huge....if they trade him it would be like Boston trading Bagwell.

I sure hope Hunsiker is smarter then that.

DD

I thought Ensberg was gonna suck but he has shown he can hit.

Why the heck would they try to trade Ensberg. It just doesn't make any sense.

1. He's not 21 but he's still young.
2. He has a very low salary.
3. We don't have a 3B Superstar prospect ready to step in. Ensberg is almost the equivalent of.
4. Our SP is not that bad. Oswalt, Miller are solid 1,2. Jeroime Robertson isn't bad. Redding can become a very good pitcher. Rosario showed he has all th tools to be a legitimate starter and Caros Hernandez can still come back next year. Plus we still have a few prospects in Triple AAA.

Unless we get an everday left handed hitter with a good salary and potential superstar skills, the trade would suck.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by RIET
Our SP is not that bad. Oswalt, Miller are solid 1,2. Jeroime Robertson isn't bad. Redding can become a very good pitcher. Rosario showed he has all th tools to be a legitimate starter and Caros Hernandez can still come back next year. Plus we still have a few prospects in Triple AAA.

You left out our current best starting pitcher.

[JPM0016]

The astros aren't trading Ensberg. Someone just threw that out there because they like Kris Benson. Ensberg is making the league minimum and he's one of the best 3rd baseman in baseball. He's not going anywhere.

by the way, Peter Gammons said at the beginning of last year Morgan Ensberg had the ability to hit 30 to 35 home runs a year and he's definitely showing it.

[BigM]

i don't know what players are out there or who hunsicker might be looking at, but WTF would we trade morgan ensberg at the rate he's going. he looks legit. i know we've been playing the reds but i'm very happy with how this team looks and wouldn't be mad should they not make a move. don't make a trade just to make a trade.

[JPM0016]

some guy just threw Ensberg out there for no apparent reason. Maybe he's been reading the ESPN board a little too much.

[haven]

Trade Ensberg? More craziness :(. You only trade a player at a position where you have depth of comparable quality.

Geoff Blum does not constitute comparable quality :(.

BTW, I think I rate Benson higher than most here. IMO, we'd be getting a reasonably priced player who can be expected to post an above-average ERA. That's enough for me from a 5th starter. Villone, who is a below-average career starter and has duration problems, is not.

Oh well. I understand the idea of riding the hot hand, even if I disagree.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by haven
IMO, we'd be getting a reasonably priced player who can be expected to post an above-average ERA. That's enough for me from a 5th starter. Villone, who is a below-average career starter and has duration problems, is not.

So, a .7 difference in career ERA makes one player above-average and the other below-average?

[RIET]

BTW. What has happened to Wilfredo Rodriguez. Baseball America continually ranked him among one of the Top 10 Astros prospects.

I know he was hurt but what's the latest on him.

[Major]

BTW, I think I rate Benson higher than most here. IMO, we'd be getting a reasonably priced player who can be expected to post an above-average ERA.

I disagree. Benson hasn't been good by any stretch since his elbow surgery. He missed the 2001 season, last year posted an ERA of 4.7 and this year is at 5.0. Since the surgery, he's been nothing more than a mediocre to bad starter.

[haven]

RM95:

Hell yeah, it's a massive difference.

Let's put it 2 differnet ways. .7 runs allowed per game is the difference (approximately) between being 2nd in pitching in the NL... and 9th.

Put another way, if you had a pitching staff that allowed 4.97 runs per game, then it's going to allow 805 runs per year. If you have a pitching staff that allows 4.27, then about 692 runs per year. That's the difference between a team that's not competitive, and a team that is competitive.

That's a huge difference.

EDIT: Well, Major... that sort of is a catch. If you think he's going to recover, then you trade for him. If not, well, then you're right.

[Groogrux]

For an entire team, I agree. I just don't necessarily believe that it means has much when you're comparing two pitchers (only an extra 25 or so runs per year). I also don't think it's that massive a difference to determine that the one with a .7 run better career ERA should be starting over the one who currently has a 2.5 run better ERA.

Also, just like Major pointed out, Benson hasn't been the same since elbow surgery.

[haven]

RM95:

But that's how teams are assembled, 1 player at a time!

I mean, you can make arguments for Blum over Ensberg by saying "Well, it's only one position... Blum's a veteran who will help us out w/his grit and determination." Then you can say similar things w/regard to Benson and Villone.

But if you think that way, then add it all up, you've got a mediocre team.

Make each selection as if you're it's the future of the entire team, and I think you'll come out well in the end.

[RIET]

Originally posted by Rocketman95

Also, just like Major pointed out, Benson hasn't been the same since elbow surgery.

He hasn't been the same since he and his wife were in a certain adult publication.

The Sports Illustrated jinx with nekid women.

[Groogrux]

That's all fine and dandy, but at this point, the only thing that Benson has a clear-cut advantage over Villone is his age. At this point, as we're attempting to make it to the playoffs this year, Villone stays in the rotation if we aquire any SP until his current level of play drops. A career .7 ERA advantage isn't a very strong argument against that, especially considering Benson's struggles after surgery.

[haven]

A .7 ERA differential is a huge argument. The fact that we're in a playoff chase has nothing to do with it. Construct the team for which the prediction of future success is best. A .7 difference in ERA is massive, and it's going to add up over the course of a season.

But I concede that the lack of success since the injury makes it dicey. TBH, I hadn't really thought too much about that. My excitement at the prospect of getting Benson was in a large part based on watching him pitch well a couple years ago.

[DVauthrin]

Originally posted by JPM0016
some guy just threw Ensberg out there for no apparent reason. Maybe he's been reading the ESPN board a little too much.

This was reported on the cincinnati FOX outlet broadcast station friday I believe and was posed as an idea by the pittsburgh media. So desi did get from a credible source as I heard the same thing.

I do like Kris Benson's makeup and I think he would be the best pitcher in this years trade class, but I wouldn't trade Ensberg for him.

IMHO, the pirates won't even get close to that much for benson.


Edit: I posted this rumor in a different thread, so JPM, sorry for overdefending my case.

[Puedlfor]

The question with Benson isn't whether he'll be 0.7 runs better than Villone every nine innings - it's whether the Astros can unleash the enormous talent in his frame that the Pirates have done their worst to absolutely destroy.

He may never live up to the Ace potential he had coming up through the minors, because lord knows his arm's been slagged enough by the Pirates to ruin it forever. But if we can get him cheap, I think that's a risk we can take - and we should move Villone from the rotation for him.

I mean, isn't that the point of having a Ron Villone-type swingman on your team? To hopefully give you a few non-crappy starts(which he has), and then move to the pen when you get someone better - but be ready to spot-start again if someone has to miss a start?

Isn't that why you sign guys like him?

[RIET]

Originally posted by Puedlfor

But if we can get him cheap, I think that's a risk we can take - and we should move Villone from the rotation for him.


That's the key. What do you define as cheap.

The most Id offer is someone like Jason Lane who is getting older by the minute with no position.

[Puedlfor]

I'd go deep into the far system, find somebody who throws hard and has guady strikeout numbers - perhaps he's a few years too old for his level, or he doesn't have a second pitch - but he looks good to the scouts and fob him off on the Pirates. At least, that would be the starting point.

I'd be willing to give up Lane for Benson, but not right away.

[DVauthrin]

Personally, I would offer lane, plus a young arm or two in the system to get Benson eventually. Obviously you start low and work your way up. I would maybe consider involving one of saarloos, rosario or redding if we got someone else good from them, but I don't think that will be necessary.

His talent is huge, the Pirates are the ones mishandling him. I badly want this guy over any other starter on the market.

[RIET]

Originally posted by Puedlfor
I'd go deep into the far system, find somebody who throws hard and has guady strikeout numbers - perhaps he's a few years too old for his level, or he doesn't have a second pitch - but he looks good to the scouts and fob him off on the Pirates. At least, that would be the starting point.

I'd be willing to give up Lane for Benson, but not right away.

Jason Lane is worthless to us.

Bagwell's set at 1B for at least another 2 or 3 years.

Lane's not a good defensive OF and he doesn't hit like Berkman.

The guy is already 26 and there's nothing else to prove at Triple A.

You should never give up on pitchers. You just never know when they'll break through.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by RIET
BTW. What has happened to Wilfredo Rodriguez. Baseball America continually ranked him among one of the Top 10 Astros prospects.

I know he was hurt but what's the latest on him.

I am fairly sure they released him last year and he was signed into the Cubs minor league system.

[PhiSlammaJamma]

We could just keep borrowing Mike Williams :)

[bobrek]

Originally posted by PhiSlammaJamma
We could just keep borrowing Mike Williams :)

He was just traded to the Phillies.

[NIKEstrad]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
That's all fine and dandy, but at this point, the only thing that Benson has a clear-cut advantage over Villone is his age.

Age and potential.

Benson has stud ability. Villone has pitched very well, but the guy is a journeyman who was released once this year, and latched on with us because of our array of SP injuries. If Carlos, Moehler, and Oswalt don't go down with injuries, and Saarloos et. al don't suck it up when starting, Villone probably wouldn't be with us.

For Benson, I'd deal Laneand a modest pitching prospect, maybe even a guy like Saarloos if they'd give us Sauerbeck or a right handed bench option as well. The Pirates are actually pretty good pitching wise, and need hitters.

From what I've read, the Orioles want a catcher, and would most likely ask for Buck+ in return for Ponson. Only way you do that is if you're planning on resigning Ponson, and you plan to keep Ausmus around longer than originally planned to wait for Hector Gimenez (sp?) to be ready.

[Major]

I mean, isn't that the point of having a Ron Villone-type swingman on your team? To hopefully give you a few non-crappy starts(which he has), and then move to the pen when you get someone better - but be ready to spot-start again if someone has to miss a start?


Sure, but how exactly is Benson better? Benson is having the worst year of a mediocre career, Villone the best (albeit a small sample here). Career numbers are nice and all, but season numbers are better indicators of the immediate future performance. What reason do we have to think that a Benson with a 5.00 ERA is suddenly going to perform better than a Villone with a 2.6 ERA? I play the guy who gives us the best chance to win, and from all indications this year, that guy is Villone.

[Baqui99]

Originally posted by Major
I mean, isn't that the point of having a Ron Villone-type swingman on your team? To hopefully give you a few non-crappy starts(which he has), and then move to the pen when you get someone better - but be ready to spot-start again if someone has to miss a start?


Sure, but how exactly is Benson better? Benson is having the worst year of a mediocre career, Villone the best (albeit a small sample here). Career numbers are nice and all, but season numbers are better indicators of the immediate future performance. What reason do we have to think that a Benson with a 5.00 ERA is suddenly going to perform better than a Villone with a 2.6 ERA? I play the guy who gives us the best chance to win, and from all indications this year, that guy is Villone.

Thank you. Don't buy into the Benson hype. He showed lots of promise a few years ago, but he isn't the same pitcher after reconstructive surgery. No need to mortgage the farm on a B-rated pitcher.

Also, I wouldn't be so quick to trade Lane. He'll be our starting CF once Biggio retires. The guy is a good power hitter. He just needs a chance in the bigs.

[reallyBaked]

Originally posted by Baqui99
The guy(J.Lane) is a good power hitter. He just needs a chance in the bigs.


weren't we saying the same thing about D.Ward?

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by reallyBaked
weren't we saying the same thing about D.Ward?

Yes we were. Not all players are the same.

[London'sBurning]

Lane's not a fatass out of shape, one dimensional batter with only a good left cut to his swing. Ward's over rated and because of his terrible shape, spends most of his time on the bench, even now for Dodgers.

[Baqui99]

Originally posted by reallyBaked
weren't we saying the same thing about D.Ward?

Ward had more than his fair share of chances with the Astros, and continued to suck. Jason Lane has yet to play even a fourth of a season in the big leagues.

[RIET]

Originally posted by Baqui99
Also, I wouldn't be so quick to trade Lane. He'll be our starting CF once Biggio retires. The guy is a good power hitter. He just needs a chance in the bigs.

A converted 1B playing CF. We already have one of the worst defensive OF's in the NL. Let's just put another former 1B out there and take our chances.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by RIET
A converted 1B playing CF. We already have one of the worst defensive OF's in the NL. Let's just put another former 1B out there and take our chances.

i'm with you..i really don't like that idea.

[JPM0016]

Isn't Jason Lane 27 or 28?? Biggio still has at least another year on his contract and an option for a third. Lane probably won't get significant playing time until he's 29 years old. I'm sure he'll replace Brian Hunter on the roster next year because it will save the club about a million dollars.

[reallyBaked]

We could get the same/more production out of Lane at 1B than we are gettin from Bags

plus Lane gets paid a WHOLE lot less than Bags..


It doesnt make *emotional* sense...but from a *baseball* viewpoint..it makes more sense...especially for a mid-market team like the Astros..

I love Bags as much as anyone...but Bags is just not the Bags of old anymore..

but i guess it is a moot point with Bags being under guarenteed contract

[bobrek]

Originally posted by reallyBaked
We could get the same/more production out of Lane at 1B than we are gettin from Bags


What crystal ball are you looking in to know this?

Bagwell is among the 3 best glovemen in the NL at 1B. When was the last time Lane even played 1B?

If the Astros were as sure as you about Jason Lane hitting 30+ HRs, 90+ RBI and 100+ Runs, they would find a place for him.

If they could get this great production out of Lane, wouldn't it make more sense for him to replace Biggio than Bagwell? He would really dwarf Biggio's numbers (according to you) and probably be just as good defensively in the OF.

[Puedlfor]

I thought Lane had an OF to 1B to CF kind of progression?

Didn't he also close for a great USC team(Zito, Munson, Engsberg, Lane) in college too? Who would've thought the highest one picked would have the worst career.

[reallyBaked]

uh, for a run producing position as 1B is..

Bagwell is way under performing...he is, "average" this year at best..

my point was just that for the money...Bagwell is HUGE disapointment this year.

it looks like he might be busting out of this season-long slump...

but if he doesn't...

we need to seriously look into gettin someone else out there...be is a Jason Lane, or that Hoffman or whatever his name is 1b we have in N.O....baseball is a numbers game...we need the numbers, whoever that may be..

[Puedlfor]

Royce Huffman? He swung a pretty light stick in Round Rock, I don't think he's the answer.

[NIKEstrad]

reallyBaked- What exactly did you expect out of Bagwell? He's on pace for 30-35 HR, and should get 100+ RBIs.

Bagwell will still be the man for another 3 years. At that point, if we have a prospect great, if not our payroll will be lightened by the absence of Bagwell, and we can go out and sign someone. We have several speedy outfielders like Jimerson and Mike Rodriguez who could progress, and even give us the option of moving Berkman to first base.

Keeping Lane, a 26 year old, around just because you project him to be able to start years from now. His positions in the majors are pretty much blocked

[reallyBaked]

ALL I was saying is that Bags is average now..and that keeping him as the #3 hitter..and insisting that he play 95% of the games at this point in his career isn't what is in the best interest of the Astros..he just isn't the RBI machine he used to be..

make the lineup

Biggio
Ensburg
kent
berkman
bagwell
doggy

him barely gettin 100 RBI ( only 98 last year) is average at best for 1B...

I aint doggin Bags or all he has done for the Astros..his dedication..his ethic..his help for the city of Houston..

I own 3 different authentic bagwell jerseys..

it just hurts me to see him struggle so badly...

hopfully he is coming out and gonna tear up the NL this 2nd half..

[JPM0016]

Bagwell struggled throughout most of last year because it he had just had his surgery that offseason. In the 2nd half he definitely picked it up.

This year he had a slump... newsflash, he has 1 every year except normally it's in April/ early may. This time it was late may/June. Jeff Bagwell is an above average player still. A top 5 1st baseman. There is a reason he bats 3rd and pitchers still pitch around him.

[DoitDickau]

reallyBaked,

why don't you post the rbi numbers for all of the starting first baseman in the league last year to see if 98 rbi's is truly average. and while you're at it why don't you compare obp and slg where bagwell was over .400 and .500 respectively.

[reallyBaked]

there are only 8 NL 1B that have had enough AB to qualify

out of those 8

Bagwell is 4th in RBI, 3rd in BA, 5th in OBP, 6th in SLG, 6th in OPS

those arent exactly "top 5 in MLB 1B" kinda numbers! certainly not near his 2000 numbers...


and no he isnt over 400 in OBP nor is he over 500 in SLG


Yes, these numbers CAN change...and hopfully they will!

yall need to RELAX about Bagwell...if ya'll can not admit it to yourselves that Bags had a very POOR 1st HALF of the season then i dunno what to say..

We need Bags to step it up, as well as Berkman to get back to form...

Doggy/morgan/kent all need to just keep on doing what they've been doing!

[DaDakota]

I would sit Biggio and play Lane in CF.

DD