Our bullpen is overated

[DaDakota]

They can close out wins, but they can not keep us in games in which we are even.

Our 1-5 record in extra inning games is pathetic.

I blame Williams for his quick hook, he needs to let the starters play longer and keep the bullpen fresher.

They will wear out and the team will fade if this keeps up....and what the hades is wrong with our offense...pathetic.

DD

[rezdawg]

We may have a pathetic extra inning record and Williams may pull the hook too early, but to call the bullpen overrated is a bit overboard.

Our bullpen is one of the best in the league.

[DaDakota]

Rez,

Our bullpen closes games out...but they hardly ever hold the stros in the close games.

Again..tonight....2-2 bullpen gives up 5 runs.

Dotel a couple of weeks ago gave up a run 2 straight nights, and the team rallied to give him the win.

Our bullpen is great as frontrunners, but mediocre at evens.

DD

[rockets-#1]

Lidge, Dotel, and Wagner are NOT overated. The others are all average at BEST though. It is one of the best in the league so far this season, but everyone knows it wont last at this rate. I hadn't thought bout how they did when the score was even, good observation Dakota.

[Yao Wink]

Our bullpen is overworked, not overrated. We lead the league in innings pitched by our relief guys. Heck, this is the same staff that combined to pitch a no-hitter at Yankee Stadium. Saarloos has really pitched well out of the pin, with Stone and Lidge posting very nice numbers. Dotel is the best set up man in the league, and Wagner is one of the most feared and successful closers in the game. This staff in the playoffs will be hard to touch.

[Timing]

I agree with overworked and maybe just slumping a little right now. Lidge, Dotel, and Wagner are probably the best trio of relievers I can ever remember having in Houston. Wagner has really improved over the years from a thrower to a pitcher. I'd still trade him if the Red Sox come calling though.

[Uprising]

but there are many bullpens who cant even close out games. Like the Astros offense has had many come from behind wins. And in the late innings, I forgot the ratio but it was something ridiculous, the Astros are outscoring their opponents by A HELL OF A LOT!!

[Yao Wink]

Hey Timing, are you a Red Sox fan? Before the season, I was thinking the 'Stros should trade Wagner while he is still productive, but this guy seems to be getting better and better. Maybe not his stats like Ks per innings, but his command.

[MadMax]

I'm guessing there are at least 25 teams in the majors that would trade their bullpen for ours.

We've had zero consistency among our starters, and still we find ourselves in first place. Our bullpen has been NAILS.

Dakota -- you cite two examples...two. and use those to say the bullpen is overrated.

[Major]

Our bullpen closes games out...but they hardly ever hold the stros in the close games.

Again..tonight....2-2 bullpen gives up 5 runs.

Dotel a couple of weeks ago gave up a run 2 straight nights, and the team rallied to give him the win.


So basically, unless the bullpen never gives up runs, they are overrated?! Why not mention the no-hitter? Seemed that in that game the bullpen kept us close until we scored.

You realize that in a 2-2 game, we have to score some runs eventually .... When we don't do that (Chicago, 16-inning game where the bullpen was amazing), yeah, the bullpen is eventually going to get the loss.

The combo of Wagner, Dotel, Lidge, Stone and Saarloos are 17-8. That's 17 games that we've been tied or losing when they come in to pitch and we win. I think they are keeping us in plenty of games.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Major
[b]

The combo of Wagner, Dotel, Lidge, Stone and Saarloos are 17-8. That's 17 games that we've been tied or losing when they come in to pitch and we win. I think they are keeping us in plenty of games.

wow! that's amazing.

[spence99]

The reason we are 1-5 in extra inning games is because Jimy uses Lidge, Dotel, and Wagner in the 7th, 8th, and 9th innings. So one of our average relievers is usually losing it in extra innings.

BTW, how long before Jimy has a 5th and 6th inning specialist. Pretty soon, he'll get rid of starters and have a designated specialist for every single inning.
We'll never win a championship with Jimy Williams. I think he is a big reason why our starters struggle. He has no confidence in them at all. Even if they are pitching great, the second they allow a hit after the 6th inning, they are yanked.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by MadMax
wow! that's amazing.

Especially for an overrated bullpen.

[Major]

BTW, how long before Jimy has a 5th and 6th inning specialist. Pretty soon, he'll get rid of starters and have a designated specialist for every single inning.


The reason that he yanks our starters in the 5th and 6th is that the majority of them implode around then. All of our mediocre starters (Robertson, Redding, etc) have bad habits of looking awesome and then blowing up. Early in the season, we really had this problem, I think. It sucks, but they haven't proven they can perform more than twice or so through the order.

[Ben Lusky]

Jimmy Williams has yanked our starters early the whole time he has been here. I think we only had 1 complete game last year which came at the end of the season. We only have one so far this year too. Look at Bartolo Colone, he has at least 4 already this season. Our bullpen is way overworked. We have 2 quality pitchers willing to go the distance, when healthy. Miller is a workhorse and can be as good as Kerry Wood. The 7,8, and 9th innings are shut outs for us cause of the pen. But the middle relief kinda blows. You know when Munroe comes in, he's good for a run or two. Saarloos has been pretty good out of the pen. But that won't last if Jimmy keeps yanking our starters, which he will. Just let them pitch if they are up.

[Groogrux]

Can people please learn how to spell our manager's name at least?

I'm normally not big on spelling, but that drives me nuts.

[Ben Lusky]

So sorry, I'll watch my grammar on the bbs from now on. Jimy, is that better? Please replace all the Jimmy's in my previous post with Jimy. Thanks

[The Fever]

I think Jimy is just hung up on 'managers decisions'. He always has to make a move or something late in the game, and it seems he does it just so he can have some kind of influence on the game. Take last night: I have no problem with him pinch hitting Ensberg late in the game (even though he should be starting by now dammit), but to substitute him in for BERKMAN? Yeah, I know that Ensberg is a better righty than Berkman hitting righty, but I don't think he should take out one of the STAR players when the game is on the line. I just think that is bad for morale. Now, if he wanted to pinch hit Ensberg for Everett and move Blum over to SS, I could understand that. But to remove Berkman is making a move just so he can say: "MANAGERS DECISION".

As for the bullpen, they are basically carrying this team to a decent record, and unless we get some starters that Jimy feels can go 7 innings, it will all implode very soon. They can't keep pitching these types of innings and expect to go 162 games, much less the playoffs.

[pgabriel]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
Especially for an overrated bullpen.

I think some of the posters are overrated.

[MadMax]

Jimy Williams is the best manager Houston has had in a LONG time.

Being in Red Sox country a few weeks back, I realized how much they loved that guy. He got an ovation every time he came out of the dugout. Every Sox fan I talked to told me how much they wish they still had Jimy.

I can't question the manager who has my team in first place right now. There are a lot more worthy objects of my complaints.

[Raven Lunatic]

Knee jerk reaction at its finest. Look at the extra inning games that we have played. One went to 16 innings, two went to 14, another to 12. I think the bullpen is doing fine keeping us in these games. If anything, the offense is to blame for the ****ty extra inning record.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by Raven Lunatic
Knee jerk reaction at its finest. Look at the extra inning games that we have played. One went to 16 innings, two went to 14, another to 12. I think the bullpen is doing fine keeping us in these games. If anything, the offense is to blame for the ****ty extra inning record.

Exactly. The bullpen pitched nearly an entire game in Chicago, it's not there fault the offense couldn't do crap.

[Timing]

Originally posted by Yao Wink
Hey Timing, are you a Red Sox fan? Before the season, I was thinking the 'Stros should trade Wagner while he is still productive, but this guy seems to be getting better and better. Maybe not his stats like Ks per innings, but his command.


Definitely not a Sox fan, just know they've had that rotating bullpen going on over there. Maybe they'd give us Hanley Ramirez and change for Wagner. Trade accepted. :)

[JPM0016]

look, the the 1 and 5 record you mentioned in extra innings isn't the fault of the bullpen rather the houston offense.

We have had a game go to the 16th, the 15th and 12 or 11th i believe. Our bullpen has given the astros the opportunity to win but time and time again our hitters are unable to deliver other than Kent. The team is built around power, either hit a home run or strike out basically.

Lidge, Dotel, Wagner - basically have 3 closers pitching the 7th, 8th and 9th. Doesn't get any better than that

[Major]

We have 2 quality pitchers willing to go the distance, when healthy. Miller is a workhorse and can be as good as Kerry Wood.

So out of 5 guys, we have 2 that can do complete games. 1 has recurring injury problems and is DLed right now - do you really want him pitching extra innings? The other is 5-7 with a 4.6 ERA - worse than Bland, Stone, Lidge, Dotel, and Wagner. Do you want him pitching complete games?

You know when Munroe comes in, he's good for a run or two.

Munro had 6 appearances in June and gave up 0 runs. He had 11 appearances in May and gave up 0 runs in 7 of those outings.

Do facts even matter to people?

[Major]

This is why our starters don't go more than 5 or 6 innings...

[DaDakota]

We have a front running bullpen, if we have to use anyone other then Lidge, Dotel, or Wagner, the bullpen caves....witness tonight.

Game is close....well, not anymore.......


By the way, does anyone else wish we would have kept Gonzo...he KILLS us....simply MURDERS us.

DD

[arkoe]

Bland should never be brought in during a close game. I agree with you that he's not all that. Saarloos and Stone have been pretty good though.

[DaDakota]

I just think that our bullpen is overated.....and let me clarify that.

I don't think a bullpen is as important as good quality starters.

Williams yanks them so quickly that they have no ability to work out of jams.

I miss Dierker, I think his reasoning that the starters are his best pitchers so let them work out of trouble instilled confidence and made the bullpen more effective because it had less work.

Im my mind Lidge and Dotel are redundant....you only need one setup man.

Move Lidge to a starters spot...and let the FRICKEN starters pitch.

I think Jimy Williams is not going to win here either.

And yes, I realize our offense is WAY underperforming....

Where the hell is Kent...he can't play with a sore wrist....come on....

DD

[Groogrux]

nevermind...

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by DaDakota
Move Lidge to a starters spot...

Oh my God.

Please go back and search every time you've suggested this. You've been told time and time again why it's not a good idea to start Lidge...

[Major]

Williams yanks them so quickly that they have no ability to work out of jams.

Yeah, like today. We should have let Redding stay out there and continue to get slaughtered. :rolleyes:

We have a front running bullpen, if we have to use anyone other then Lidge, Dotel, or Wagner, the bullpen caves....witness tonight.


Yeah, sucks that we only have 3 studs in our bullpen. Name a bullpen better that ours. Name one that has an awesome #4 reliever. Never mind that Saarloos has a June ERA of 2.0 and Munro has a June ERA of 0.00. Our bullpen just sucks because they occasionally give up runs. TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE!

WTF? Do people not even think before they post now?

[DaDakota]

Major,

My point is that if you are relying on your bullpen, you are already behind.

Relying on the bullpen is like the opposing team worrying about Michael Jordan's backup.

STARTERS are the key...STARTERS.....and a closer......middle relief can be junk ball players with a change of pace.....

Jimy manages wrong....you can't win that way.....middle releif is overated.....thus....the our bullpen is overated slant.

As for Lidge....who cares if he has been hurt before.....is he a ball player or not...run him out there every 5th day to find out.

Anyone can pitch middle relief...this team needs starters.....put your best players in the most important positions...is that so hard to understand?

DD

[Major]

My point is that if you are relying on your bullpen, you are already behind.

That seems to be a problem with the offense or starters - the starters who you seem to want Jimy to keep running out there even more.

Besides which, who cares if you get behind early - if you have a lights-out bullpen, that gives you 9 innings to score and your opponent only 6. That's why we win so many games late (the big bullpen guys being 17-8). Why mess up the one thing that's working on this team?

Anyone can pitch middle relief...this team needs starters.....put your best players in the most important positions...is that so hard to understand?

Lidge being able to pitch important innings 2 or 3 times every 5 days is more important than risking him pitching once every 5 days in a role that he may not be at all effective in. He doesn't have enough pitches, he hasn't ever managed to pile up innings without injuries, and he's effective because people only see him once. We shot up Elarton's arm with the bullpen-starter switch and Lidge is an injury-nightmare waiting to happen.

Perhaps you understand little to nothing about managing people and their health - that's fine. Jimy is a bit smarter than that and recognizes that these aren't robots out there.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by DaDakota
My point is that if you are relying on your bullpen, you are already behind.

Relying on the bullpen is like the opposing team worrying about Michael Jordan's backup.

STARTERS are the key...STARTERS.....and a closer......middle relief can be junk ball players with a change of pace.....


No one would argue with this. But you said our bullpen is overrated. You didn't mention any of this until now.

As for Lidge....who cares if he has been hurt before.....is he a ball player or not...run him out there every 5th day to find out.

While injuries has something to do with it, do you realize how hard it would be to turn him into a starter at this point in the year? For one thing, you've got durability issues, not to mention the fact that he doesn't have enough pitches to succeed as a starter. Then, if he doesn't work out as a starter, you risk damaging the psyche of one of the best bullpen pitchers in the MLB. There's no need to mess with a good thing. Of course, I'm just going to copy this onto a Word document so I can paste this the next time you bring up Lidge starting.

Anyone can pitch middle relief...this team needs starters.....put your best players in the most important positions...is that so hard to understand?

So, you'd be in favor of starting both Dotel and Lidge? I mean, they're just middle relievers, they don't mean anything. :rolleyes:

[DaDakota]

RM95,

Yep, I would not mind running Dotel or Lidge out there as a starter.....


The biggest problem I have is that the Astros are a mediocre team because our owner will not pay top dollar to a pitcher..and we lose quality starter after quality starter.

Think about it, when was the last time we had a legitimate STAR number 1 pitcher? We rented Randy Johnson for half a year....and before that, who? We let Kile go...we let Hampton go, Drayton will not pay for arguably the most important player on the team.

The starting pitcher.......


Oswalt and Miller may develop into all star pitchers, but you watch....they will be traded before they get the HUGE contract.

Starting pitching is the problem.....offense comes and goes....but if you have QUALITY starting pitching.....it gives you a great chance to win..

Bullpens are like a good bench in basketball.....oh goody...but in reality it is the starters who matter the most.

DD

[arkoe]

Originally posted by Major
That's why we win so many games late (the big bullpen guys being 17-8). Why mess up the one thing that's working on this team?

I'm not siding with DaDa here, but I'm sure that it doesn't hurt the pen that we've outscored our opponents something like 120-20 in the eighth and ninth innings. The fact that our pen's only given up 20 runs late is a testament to Dotel and Wagner.

[Groogrux]

Changing your arugment again. How does your last post prove that our bullpen is overrated? No one is arguing that our starting pitching is stellar. But just because it isn't doesn't mean we should decimate the best part of our team.

[DaDakota]

RM95....I guess the title of my post should have been relying on a bullpen is overated......

I just get tired of hearing how great our bullpen is, when the bullpen is WAY down the list of importance on a quality team.

DD

[DVauthrin]

DaDakota,

You want to see how important a dominating pen is, look at why NY hasn't won it all the last 2 years.

They have let Stanton and esp Nelson, get away. And Rivera has gotten hurt frequently exposing them even more.

A great bullpen is built for the postseason, trust me.

However, of course a potent lineup and dominating rotation are more pressing issues, but having a dominant pen is a very important luxury to have and we have it, so we shouldnt give it up.

You think teams will enjoy Roy-O/Wade leaving in a close game late with the three headed monster of lidge-dotel-wags awaiting them. It becomes essentially a 6 inning game.

Saarloos has dominated out of the pen as well, and munro and stone are serviceable mop up men, but rest assured championship teams usually have a dominant bullpen, esp with starting pitching so depleted in the modern game.

Look at K-Rod/Percival in Anaheim last year, F-Rod-Nen in SF, Stanton-Nelson-Rivera in NY. The one exception was the D-Backs, but they also had 2 of the top 3 pitchers in the game at the time pitching at their peaks. They are the exception, not the rule if you ask me.

Gerry will go get us one more starter, but really I think our starters are not that bad. Wade and Roy will find themselves I believe, Redding except for these two zona starts has put it together, robertson has got it working since his 2nd recall, and Rosario had an impressive 1st outing.

Still, Roy-Wade is one of the top 3 or 4 one-two NL starter combos and redding is a solid 3. Add one more vet pitcher to protect from injury/redding losing focus and we will be fine.

Jimy gets an A plus from me so far this year. We have not even come close to our potential, and eventually we will. Watch out when we do.

[Greg M]

Originally posted by DaDakota
I just get tired of hearing how great our bullpen is, when the bullpen is WAY down the list of importance on a quality team.

Welcome to the new mellinium. There is not that much good pitching in baseball today and unfortunately the Yankees have half of them.

I can't figure out why everybody blames this on Jimy. The starters have not earned the chance to pitch late into games. They've sucked. So why stick with a struggling starter with a high ERA when you have relievers that are tough as nails and have ERAs under 2?

It's completely up to the starting pitchers to give the bullpen some relief. Robertson has pitched much better this month so he's going deeper into games. When Wade pitches well he goes at least 7. I know it's a difficult concept but the better you do the longer you last. Concerning your comparison of reliever to NBA bench players, that is absurd. Relievers come in when the game is on the line. I never saw Rudy play Collier in crunch time.

Jimy vs Dierker. Jimy gets Roy and Wade. Dierker gets Kile, Hampton, Reynolds and Lima. Jimy pulls Robertson and Saarloos early. Dierker sticks with Bergman and Holt through the 7th.

I for one prefer Jimy's approach more but I digress. This isn't a Jimy vs Larry debate. Or is it?

[MadMax]

great point, greg...i think you're exactly right. a good manager knows his team's strengths and uses them to win ballgames. i think that's exactly what jimy has done this year.

[DaDakota]

Max,

Except it has been more about winning some and losing some....

Jimy and his .500 record will not get it done.

DD

[Raven Lunatic]

Originally posted by DaDakota
Max,

Except it has been more about winning some and losing some....

Jimy and his .500 record will not get it done.

DD

Roy has been injured twice, Wade started out poorly, Bagwell is still mired in the worst slump of his career, and most of our young starters that we were counting on have not come through for us. I don't think these things can be blamed on Jimy. The team has not been great...or even good for that matter, but I think (and many people have argued much more persuasively than you) that the reasons for that really don't include William's management style. I don't always agree with everything he does, but when is the last time anybody has agreed with everything their team's manager has done? Lots of people think Tony LaRussa and Joe Torre are geniuses, but both of them make questionable decisions all the time. Seems to me that Jimy has done quite well for us.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by DaDakota
Max,

Except it has been more about winning some and losing some....

Jimy and his .500 record will not get it done.

DD

they're over .500

jimy's career record is well over .500, i believe.

[Groogrux]

And the way this season has started off, the fact that we're over .500 is simply amazing.

[pgabriel]

Originally posted by Rocketman95
And the way this season has started off, the fact that we're over .500 is simply amazing.

If the majority thinks he's 500 then he must be. The people have spoken.;)

[NYKRule]

Originally posted by DVauthrin
You want to see how important a dominating pen is, look at why NY hasn't won it all the last 2 years.


A freak "collapse" by the best closer in baseball did the Yankees in against the D'Backs. Last year was clear though, Stanton and almost everyone else in the pen just completely collapsed. I agree with DaDakota on some points though, after the first 2 bullpen guys, bullpen should be next to filling out your bench when you are starting a team. Having two stoppers is very important. You'll never win a WS without the two stoppers.

Houston's "big 3" isn't overrated.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by pgabriel
If the majority thinks he's 500 then he must be. The people have spoken.;)

pgabriel,

That is exactly right!!! SHEESH!!

:)

RM95

[DaDakota]

Funny guys..

How about that bullpen agains that sorry Rangers tonight...brilliant.

DD

[fatman510]

Originally posted by DaDakota
Funny guys..

How about that bullpen agains that sorry Rangers tonight...brilliant.

DD
Our bullpen isnt overrated, just overused.
Lidge is really starting to burn out, Jimy should give him 5-6 days rest regardless of what happens.

[Raven Lunatic]

Originally posted by DaDakota
Funny guys..

How about that bullpen agains that sorry Rangers tonight...brilliant.

DD

Yeah, and look at the Red Sox. They must be the greatest team of all time.

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by DaDakota
Funny guys..

How about that bullpen agains that sorry Rangers tonight...brilliant.

DD

:rolleyes:

So what's your argument today? Is our bullpen back to being overrated, or is having an awesome bullpen (like we have) overrated?

[DaDakota]

RM95,

Today it is both. Glad to see your old argumentative self is back. I guess you aren't going to the sessions anymore.

:)


DD

[DVauthrin]

DaDakota,

You do realize the part of the Rangers that is really good, is the part the bullpen has to deal with, right?

It just wasn't our night, you think all of our bullpen guys would all continually fall behind on every hitter most nights?

Now, i'm not suggesting they were very good last night, but they were put in a ****ty position with rosario getting hurt.

Gerry needs to get us a starter asap, just as depth if anything else.

[DaDakota]

And our bullpen blows another one...that is 3 or 4 in the last week.

You guys were saying?


DD

[Raven Lunatic]

Originally posted by DaDakota
And our bullpen blows another one...that is 3 or 4 in the last week.

You guys were saying?


DD

Where were you with this before they started blowing games? I bet you didn't really think they were overrated then. Even the best of players can have a rough stretch. As much as our bully has been used this season, it was only a matter of time before started getting tired. But of course, you didn't have anything to say yesterday when they held that narrow lead through 3 innings.

[DaDakota]

Raven,

I am still saying that having a great bullpen is overated, and ours is overated as well.

Starting pitching wins games, middle relievers are not good enough to start, and closers are generally one trick ponies.

Starting pitching...that is our biggest need, and WAY more important then our bullpen.

DD

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by DaDakota
And our bullpen blows another one...that is 3 or 4 in the last week.

You guys were saying?


DD

Did you even watch the game today?

I'm assuming by this post that you didn't. The bullpen did not blow this game today. 3 runs were scored because Biggio tripped on a flyball. 2 runs scored after a blown double play (true, it was Stone's fault).

[Raven Lunatic]

Originally posted by DaDakota
Raven,

I am still saying that having a great bullpen is overated, and ours is overated as well.

Starting pitching wins games, middle relievers are not good enough to start, and closers are generally one trick ponies.

Starting pitching...that is our biggest need, and WAY more important then our bullpen.

DD

So you are saying we should trade our good bullpen pitchers for starting pitching? Or you are just making a general assessment of a portion of the team that is playing poorly right now and gloating every time they do poorly and make you think they have proven you right? I'm not sure what it accomplishes to bring it up every time the pen has a rough game.

[DaDakota]

Raven,

No, I am basically trying to point out that the team will not go very far with a decent bullpen and crappy starting pitching.

It drives me nuts that the team puts more empasis on middle relievers rather then getting another quality starting pitcher.

Oswalt,Redding and Miller are the only 3 we have, and 2 of them have had crappy years......what happened to Carlos Hernandez anyway?

DD

[Groogrux]

Who do you propose we get? We tried to get Finley, but he won't come out of retirement. They've informed teams that they're willing to add a little payroll and are looking at starting pitching only (as far as I've heard).

You act like we went out and traded starting pitching prospects for middle relief. We haven't. We're just fortunate enough to have a kickass bullpen-one that shut down the Rangers on Saturday after Robertson left in the 7th. They're a huge part of why we're still heavily in contention despite our horrible starting pitching and clutch hitting.

[spence99]

I agree with DaDakota. We won't go anywhere if we don't get any starting pitching. Even if Lidge, Dotel, and Wagner each pitch an inning, that's only 1/3 of the game. You need a starter to pitch well the first 6.
Plus, our bullpen is showing signs of wearing down the last week, and we're not even to the all-star break. Jimy Williams needs to start limiting Lidge, Dotel, and Wagner a little more so that they can make it through the whole season without wearing down. If we want to win the division, he is going to have to have to rely on some of the other relievers to pitch key innings.

[Groogrux]

I think everyone agrees with that.

[Raven Lunatic]

Originally posted by DaDakota
Raven,

No, I am basically trying to point out that the team will not go very far with a decent bullpen and crappy starting pitching.

It drives me nuts that the team puts more empasis on middle relievers rather then getting another quality starting pitcher.

Oswalt,Redding and Miller are the only 3 we have, and 2 of them have had crappy years......what happened to Carlos Hernandez anyway?

DD

Have you paid any attention to Jeriome Robertson lately? His last 8 starts or so have been very solid...certainly good enough for a #4 or #5 starter on a playoff team. A core of Oswalt, Miller, Redding and Robertson should be good enough. Our problem is not overall crappy starting pitching, but rather injuries to that starting pitching. If we had everyone healthy, it would be a different story.

And you never answered my question. Last night our bullpen lost the game while our starting pitching (Villone) did quite well. So how exactly does citing this game do anything to prove or even give credence to your argument in this thread?

[DaDakota]

Ehem...Wags looked great last night.

cough cough.

;)

DD

[Groogrux]

:rolleyes:

How about Stone and Lidge?

How about our bullpen on Saturday?

[Major]

How about Stone and Lidge?

How about our bullpen on Saturday?

Don't you understand? If a pitcher ever gives up a run, he sucks. All the other days are irrelevent.

We should only send out pitchers there who have ERAs of 0.00.

And of course, it's all Jimy's fault too.

[Raven Lunatic]

Originally posted by DaDakota
Ehem...Wags looked great last night.

cough cough.

;)

DD

Once again, if your contention is that our starting pitching needs bolstering, and that the bullpen is not as important, then why do you cite games where the starting pitching does well and the relief does poorly as evidence to support your stance? If we had a worse bullpen last night they would have somehow done better? It makes no sense.

[DaDakota]

Dude,

I am saying that our starting pitching is horrible, and our bullpen is overated.

However, that pails in comparison to our lack of clutch hitting.

Outside of Kent and Ensberg this years hitters are creampuffs.

DD

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by DaDakota
Outside of Kent and Ensberg this years hitters are creampuffs.


Yeah, Hidalgo's been horrible.

[DaDakota]

Hidalgo has hit fairly well for average, but not in the clutch. Thus his low RBI totals.

Thus the CLUTCH HITTING part of my post.

Don't you have an appointment with the shrink pony boy?

;)

DD

[Groogrux]

Lemme make a DD-esque post:

What about last night...SHEESH.

Hidalgo's got more HRs than Kent and only 11 less RBI despite playing in less games and hitting in the 6th spot for most of the year. He's not a creampuff.

Looking at the stats, I'd say Berkman hasn't been much of a creampuff either.

Unfortunately, this year (as it's been in the Astros' past), we can't seem to put it all together at one time. For the vast majority of the year, we've had the best bullpen in the league. At times, we've had decent starting pitching and decent clutch hitting...just never at the same time.

Yet, we're still in first place.

[Red Chocolate]

Anyone who reads DD's posts in this thread should be able to tell that this guy knows almost zero about baseball. Why even bother?

[DaDakota]

Since the no hitter.....our bullpen is 2-9 with 3 blown saves.

Yep...they are great.....really great....and they lost again today.

Great I tell ya...just great.

Of course our offense sucks wind too...this team is frustrating...

DD

[Drewdog]

Originally posted by DaDakota
Hidalgo has hit fairly well for average, but not in the clutch. Thus his low RBI totals.

Jumping in a little late here....

Dude Doggie is having a kick-a$$ season!!! .... Are you watching last years games or something?? After Kent, Hidalgo has been our most consistent and productive hitters bar none.

And as far as our bullpen being overrated..... :confused: WTF???

Tell me any other team that has a DEEPER bullpen than the 'stros?

[DaDakota]

2-10 now since the no hitter, yep, they are great, for sure.

DD

[DVauthrin]

DaDakota,

Go follow another team if you want to be this stupid.

You are just being a whiny brat, pulling the lamest of tactics to prove your stupid point in this thread. I have to ask, is this your kid posting for you in this thread, because this is one great tantrum you are throwing.

Where were you earlier in the year when this bullpen was on fire?

Where will you be when they get out of the slump and get back on track after they get their 2nd wind?

Baseball is a 162 game long season, and 12 game bad stretches happen to everyone. Especially to an overworked bullpen who needs some time to catch its 2nd wind.

And you are just as wrong on Hidalgo. The reason his RBI totals suck is he spent a month on the DL with that illness, remember.

It's amazing how you really spin things you only see what you want to see.

Finally, I admit the bullpen has struggled of late, but it doesn't change the fact they aren't overrated and that they are one of the top 5 in baseball, sorry to dissapoint you.

[Groogrux]

Badass post DVauthrin. No one could expect our awesome bullpen to keep up that pace for the entire year. The fact that they made it until June before hitting a bad spell is simply amazing due to our lack of quality pitching thus far.

However, I doubt DaDakota will even acknowledge that. Nor will he post tonight if our bullpen holds a lead. What tickles me is his argument.

So, he's back to the bullpen is overrated card.

First, they're overrated.

Then, when everyone points out how wrong he is, he jumps to the argument that the bullpen isn't overrated, just having a good bullpen when the rest of your team sucks is overrated.

Then he jumps in here when they blow a save.

Probably the most annoying poster here. I've always thought that the ignore list was for pussies, but DaDakota's performance in this forum is really testing that theory.

[Drewdog]

When it rains, it pours......

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/1980902

THE 'PEN IS MIGHTIER
Addition of Lidge has Astros among NL's best

By JOSE DE JESUS ORTIZ
Copyright 2003 Houston Chronicle

Billy Wagner and Octavio Dotel expected the Astros' bullpen to be good, especially with Pete Munro and Ricky Stone returning after strong seasons last year. They only wondered about righthander Brad Lidge, who had impressed at every stop during his injury-plagued career.

Could he stay healthy? Could he transfer the success he had in the minors to the majors? After only 222 2/3 innings over five minor-league seasons?

With a wicked slider, a mid-90s fastball and a mound presence to match his 6-5, 210 frame, the 26-year-old Lidge has answered the call with authority. The Astros' top pick in the 1998 draft has made a good bullpen great, settling in nicely behind Wagner and Dotel to form one of the most menacing bullpens in all of baseball.

"I knew we obviously had two of the best relievers in baseball and a couple of guys that could do the job," Lidge said. "I guess I was thinking we'd have a good bullpen, not a great bullpen. Obviously at the beginning of the season, I was a question mark.

"I hadn't proved anything at this level. I had confidence I could do the job, but you have to show them and prove yourself. Obviously, we all knew Ricky Stone and Pete Munro can do the job."

At the halfway mark, the Astros' bullpen had an impressive 22-15 record with a 3.38 ERA and 26 saves over a National League-leading 295 2/3 innings.

Lidge, despite a span in which he gave up eight earned runs in 1 2/3 innings over two outings in late June, finished the first half with a 4-1 record and 2.83 ERA while pitching in 40 of the Astros' first 81 games. Dotel, who pitched in 41 games in the first half, was 6-3 with a 2.11 ERA.

Wagner, who also appeared in 41 games in the first half, was 1-3 with a 2.18 ERA and 22 saves at the halfway point. Stone was 4-2 with a 3.83 ERA and Munro was 3-3 with a 4.99 ERA. Munro's first-half ERA and record was skewed because he struggled in two spot starts in place of Roy Oswalt. He was 3-1 with a 3.18 ERA over 29 relief outings, but he was 0-2 as a starter while giving up 10 earned runs in 5 1/3 innings.

Righthanders Kirk Saarloos and Brandon Puffer and lefthander Nate Bland also provided the bullpen some innings in the first half.

"They've all contributed (in the bullpen) to help us win games, not just pitch innings but helping us win games," manager Jimy Williams said. "Lately, our starters have gone a little deeper. I don't think our overall average for our starters is real good yet, but hopefully we can build on that. We've had a couple of injury times when guys had to come out, and that didn't help."

The starting rotation must start pitching deeper into games if the Astros hope to have a bullpen in September. The biggest question in the second half will center on the ability of the bullpen to hold up to the workload.

Williams will try to solve that problem, but there is no doubt the Astros would be in serious trouble without the bullpen's performance this season.

"We'd be a lot further down the line than we are now, that's for sure," general manager Gerry Hunsicker said. "But that was one of the designed strengths of the club. I'm not surprised at the bullpen. But, having said that, there's still some soft spots out there. The problem is getting to those guys. You can't go to the same well every night. When your starter doesn't get you to the seventh inning that consistently, it strains the bullpen.

"The other guys in the bullpen haven't pitched as well as they could, so that puts more pressure on the big three. When you're talking about the bullpen, you talk about three. The other guys have been inconsistent like a lot of the other parts of the team."

Despite the injuries to the starting rotation and the inconsistencies of the starters and the offense, the bullpen has helped the Astros remain in games that otherwise would have been routs.

"We wouldn't even be talking about contending without the bullpen," Lance Berkman said. "The bullpen has really been magnificent. I knew we'd have a good bullpen coming in, but I didn't expect them to be as good as they've been, either."

Added Jeff Bagwell: "There's no question about it that we wouldn't be where we are right now without our bullpen. We've been lucky to stay in the race. If the game is close after six innings, we can stay in the game and find a way to win a game because they don't score off those guys. We have three innings basically to try to score a run or two. That's been a tremendous benefit for us."

After so much success early on in the season, Lidge wasn't accustomed to the failure he had while giving up those eight runs over 1 2/3 innings in late June.

"Now that everybody has confidence, the toughest thing is humility," Wagner said. "Because they've been good, they're not used to struggles. But when you struggle, the guy behind you picks you up. If I have a bad game, Dotel pumps me up. If Lidge has a bad game, we pick him up. (We) stick together and tell each other we're doing a good job."

Dotel has heard talk that the Los Angeles Dodgers and Chicago Cubs may have better bullpens, but he isn't buying it. Sitting out there every day, he views the Astros' bullpen as the best in the National League.

"I didn't imagine it would be like this," Dotel said. "I did think it would be good, but I didn't know it would be this good. I had a good year last season, Billy had a good year last season, and Stone had a good year last season. But I didn't know anything about Lidge. He has been a big key for us.

"There's a rumor that the Dodgers or Cubs have a better bullpen, but I don't think so. They have great bullpens, but we have the best."

And Dotel's teammates know where they'd be without the bullpen.

"Obviously, our bullpen has been our security," Craig Biggio said. "Without them, we're in some serious trouble."

[DaDakota]

I am just pissed at the whole team right now...and the bullpen is the one that is slumping the most.....ah well....to be an astros fan is torture...just like the Oilers.

DD

[JBIIRockets]

DA, this is when you should act like me, and learn not ever to expect anything great out of this team.


Although I like to see them win, let's face it, the Astros are one of the worst professional teams in sports in terms of achieving success.

Plus they have an owner who won't pay the big bucks, so why expect anything grand from this team.

The biggest problem I have with Drayton is that he calls the Astros champions when they win their division.

Message to Drayton: there is only one champion a year, and you're a huge reason why the Astros are not one.