Daryl Ward? Anyone know how he is doing now?

[Playercentral]

whats going on with D ward now that hes not an Astro anymore?

[Smokey]

I think he's now with the Dodgers.

[Creepy Crawl]

Hes in the Dodgers minor leauge system . :D

[arkoe]

Currently he's busy somewhere in the Dodger's system outeating his entire team.

[countingcrow]

Ward is currently a backup OFer with the Dodgers. He has 1 official at-bat this season and he struck out. He also has a walk.

He would be flourishing right now if he were a DH in the American league.

[Htownhero]

I still laugh to think of how high the Stros were on this guy a couple of years ago. Gotta love those "can't miss" prospects huh?

[Raven Lunatic]

Originally posted by Htownhero
I still laugh to think of how high the Stros were on this guy a couple of years ago. Gotta love those "can't miss" prospects huh?

Yeah, I guess...in as much as anyone ever called Ward a can't miss prospect. It doesn't surprise me that he hasn't turned out good yet (he very well still could), but it still pisses me off that we could have gotten so much more for him had we been willing to trade him a year or two ago.

[rezdawg]

Yeah, I agree with Lunatic. We could have gotten a lot had we traded Ward a couple years ago. Oh well, at least we got rid of Elarton in time.

[Refman]

Originally posted by Htownhero
I still laugh to think of how high the Stros were on this guy a couple of years ago. Gotta love those "can't miss" prospects huh?
Yep...back in 1999 if Ward and Elarton hadn't been declared untouchable by management, we would have shipped them to Toronto for Roger Clemens.

[xiki]

1 for 2, single and K. Tearing it up (eating it up?).

Did 'stros misestimate his upside or ruin him?

[Htownhero]

Don't misunderstand, I wasn't taking a shot at the Stros here. It just always amazes me how sure GM's and scouts are about someone before they ever get a chance to prove themselves.

[Mr. Mooch]

Originally posted by Refman
Yep...back in 1999 if Ward and Elarton hadn't been declared untouchable by management, we would have shipped them to Toronto for Roger Clemens.

Oh great, thanks for remindig me. That's the one thing about the Astros which I never reallly liked.

That and how we don't have Randy Johnson anymore, but Seattle STILL has Guillen & Garcia, and had John Thadeuz Halama (now with Oaktown) until last year.:mad:

On the other hand, remember when Mario Elie was almost traded for Damon Stoudamire? That was good GM'ing.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by Mr. Mooch
Oh great, thanks for remindig me. That's the one thing about the Astros which I never reallly liked.

That and how we don't have Randy Johnson anymore, but Seattle STILL has Guillen & Garcia, and had John Thadeuz Halama (now with Oaktown) until last year.:mad:

On the other hand, remember when Mario Elie was almost traded for Damon Stoudamire? That was good GM'ing.

Are you saying that the Astros have had bad general management over the past few years? Hunsicker has been reagarded as one of the best in the business. His acquisitions and "roster tinkering" have allowed the Astros to remain contenders year in and year out since he has been around (with the exception of the aberration of 2000). In additon the Astros have one of the best minor league systems as well as THE best baseball academy in South America. The credit for that goes to the ownership and management of the Astros.

[Mr. Mooch]

Originally posted by bobrek
Are you saying that the Astros have had bad general management over the past few years? Hunsicker has been reagarded as one of the best in the business. His acquisitions and "roster tinkering" have allowed the Astros to remain contenders year in and year out since he has been around (with the exception of the aberration of 2000). In additon the Astros have one of the best minor league systems as well as THE best baseball academy in South America. The credit for that goes to the ownership and management of the Astros.

No, I was actually pointing out a couple examples of what seemed like good GM'ing at the time, and I was actually glad to have RJ when the trade happened. But those prospects were bound to great.

I never said Hunsicker did a bad job, nor did he. I think he's one of the best. I know all about what the Astros are doing, even though I don't see what having a great South American system has much to do with Hunsicker and his job in this case.

[eric.81]

It sucks that hind-sight is always 20/20. The year we got Randy was one of the most exciting times I've ever had being an Astros fan. I mean, he IS the next Nolan (although there really could never be a next Nolan)... forget Kerry Wood, nobody has thrown that hard, that LATE in their career except Ryan and Johnson.

It would be nice to have Oswalt, Garcia, Miller at the front of our rotation though.... or even better (if we could've signed Johnson): Johnson, Oswalt, Miller.... can you say BIG three?

[bobrek]

Originally posted by Mr. Mooch
No, I was actually pointing out a couple examples of what seemed like good GM'ing at the time, and I was actually glad to have RJ when the trade happened. But those prospects were bound to great.

I never said Hunsicker did a bad job, nor did he. I think he's one of the best. I know all about what the Astros are doing, even though I don't see what having a great South American system has much to do with Hunsicker and his job in this case.

You're quote "that's the one thing about the Astros which I never really liked" in response to Refman's post about the Clemens "non-trade", led me to believe that you feel that the Astros make poor decisions. The quote and subsequent Randy Johns reference implies that the Astros don't place the proper value on their younger players (Elarton, Ward, Guillen, Garcia, Halama).

By the way, Guillen's lifetime average is .257 with an OBP of .327 and an OPS of .705. Those are very ordinary numbers. Lugo's same numbers are better across the board. Halama's lifetime ERA is 4.54. Those two players are far from great.

Freddy Garcia is a different story. He has put up good numbers ever since going to Seattle. You gotta give up something to get something and Garcia was it.

Since Hunsicker is the general manager, he is ultimately responsible for baseball related aspects of the Astros organization, including their minor league system and S.A. baseball academy.

[Mr. Mooch]

Originally posted by bobrek
You're quote "that's the one thing about the Astros which I never really liked" in response to Refman's post about the Clemens "non-trade", led me to believe that you feel that the Astros make poor decisions. The quote and subsequent Randy Johns reference implies that the Astros don't place the proper value on their younger players (Elarton, Ward, Guillen, Garcia, Halama).

By the way, Guillen's lifetime average is .257 with an OBP of .327 and an OPS of .705. Those are very ordinary numbers. Lugo's same numbers are better across the board. Halama's lifetime ERA is 4.54. Those two players are far from great.

Freddy Garcia is a different story. He has put up good numbers ever since going to Seattle. You gotta give up something to get something and Garcia was it.

Since Hunsicker is the general manager, he is ultimately responsible for baseball related aspects of the Astros organization, including their minor league system and S.A. baseball academy.

Jesus dude. Like YOU said, that was ONE reference.

I never said the Astros had poor roster management. In the Randy Johnson trade I felt the decision was poor, even though it, at the time, worked out in favor for the Astros in the remainder of the regular season (he sucked in the playoffs).

I used the Elie-Stoudamire non-trade in correlation with the Clemens-Elarton/Ward non-trade. It would've worked in favor of the Astros no doubt. I felt that the trade SHOULD have been done. I'm not criticizing unsicker or the Astros there because NOTHING HAPPENED. There wasn't a dtrade. I just felt it would've been better if they would have.
Look at it this way; the Astros don't have Garcia, Guillen, Halama, Elarton, or Ward, but for those 5 players they have nothing. They could of had BOTH Clemens and RJ on the same roster.

You are looking WWAAAAAYYYYYY too much into what I am saying. I never said that Halama, Garcia, or Guillen were good. I "implied" that they are still around (except for Halama) in Seattle and RJ signed where he lives, Arizona.

Oh riiiiight, I forgot to mention that we also don't have B-rate Pedro (Astacio) around anymore (not that he's doing anything in NY nowadays).

So that leaves.....

RUDDY LUGO!!!!!!!

[bobrek]

Did I misread your quote?:

"No, I was actually pointing out a couple examples of what seemed like good GM'ing at the time, and I was actually glad to have RJ when the trade happened. But those prospects were bound to great."

I read that as you saying that the prospects traded for Johnson (Halama, Garcia and Guillen) were bound to be great.

[Mr. Mooch]

Originally posted by bobrek
Did I misread your quote?:

"No, I was actually pointing out a couple examples of what seemed like good GM'ing at the time, and I was actually glad to have RJ when the trade happened. But those prospects were bound to great."

I read that as you saying that the prospects traded for Johnson (Halama, Garcia and Guillen) were bound to be great.

You don't quit, do you;).

Yes, Guillen was rated higher at the time, and obviously Garcia is a great pitcher (forget about Halama).

THEY WERE!!! AHHH!!!

[xiki]

Originally posted by Mr. Mooch


On the other hand, remember when Mario Elie was almost traded for Damon Stoudamire? That was good GM'ing.

Who was to be traded? Why did the deal die?

[Mr. Mooch]

Originally posted by xiki
Who was to be traded? Why did the deal die?

It was when Stoudamire was supposed to be the greatest guard ever while with the Raptors.

Elie was mentioned as was Maloney.

Also, Cato was supposed to be traded initially from Portland to Toronto.

Here's a site that covers it pretty well:
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/2955/trade.html

It also has a link (no longer valid) to Clutch City Online at the bottom!

[Greg M]

Look at it this way; the Astros don't have Garcia, Guillen, Halama, Elarton, or Ward, but for those 5 players they have nothing.

Nothing? How about postseason appearences, which don't grow on trees like in the NBA?

I'm not sure what you're whining about. The Astros have a strong farm system to make midseason rentals with good players while holding on to the Berkmans and the Oswalts. That is what intelligent mid-market teams do. Sure it hurts not having Garcia but I'll take RJ on my rotation into the playoffs any day and for just about any cost. It didn't work out thanks to Kevin Brown, Sterling Hitchcock and Jim freakin' Leyritz but it was a fantastic gamble.

They could of had BOTH Clemens and RJ on the same roster.

For reference, the RJ trade happened in 1998 at the trade deadline. The Clemens fiasco happened in the summer of 1999. Johnson had already signed with Arizona when the trade talks with former Toronto moron...err...GM Gordon Ash took place, so there was never a possibilty of them playing in Houston together.

Clemens was still under contract with the Blue Jays for one more year. His agents wanted a new contract for TONS before any trade could take place. In essence Hunsicker had to pay $10 million per season, a four year deal I think, for a washed up pitcher while giving up at least two top prospects. He did the smart thing and told the Hendricks brothers off in a news conference. Both moves were great. Clemens is a strikeout pitcher with a big attitude. Whoopie. He's not Ryan. As a Yankee his ERA has been around 4. Is a pitcher with an ERA around 4 worth 15% of the teams budget? Nope.

You also bash Hunsicker for not wanting to give up on Elarton and Hidaglo for Clemens. Well Elarton had a magic arm. Poor guy just blew it out. If you could have forseen that, please give me some stock advice. His arm was just as good as Wade Milller and Roy Oswalt's. When Hunsicker knew that Scott wouldn't materialize to what was projected anytime, he shipped him off to Colorado for Astacio to compete in the stetch drive.(And the B grade Astacio p[erformed better as an Astros than the A grade Clemens did)

Then Hidalgo? Common. That guy played a solid CF and boy his 2000 season was incredible proving Astro management correct in their decision. Back in 1999, did you know that he would have problems with his kness and that he'd increse his weight?

The main reason why the past 7 years the Astros have been a force is largely in thanks to Hunsicker. In general Carroll Dawson gets the big names while Huniscker gets the big production. Gerry....you da man!

[Mr. Mooch]

Originally posted by Greg M
Nothing? How about postseason appearences, which don't grow on trees like in the NBA?

I was talking merely about players. Obviously the Astros got more depth heading in to the postseason. Did it work? NOPE. I just had a mental lapse; how did they do in '98 again? And what do they have now from that trade? NOTHING.

For reference, the RJ trade happened in 1998 at the trade deadline. The Clemens fiasco happened in the summer of 1999. Johnson had already signed with Arizona when the trade talks with former Toronto moron...err...GM Gordon Ash took place, so there was never a possibilty of them playing in Houston together.

Okay I'll give you that one; I thought the Clemens trade rumors were beforehand, but my mental timeline messed up here.

You also bash Hunsicker for not wanting to give up on Elarton and Hidaglo for Clemens. .... Then Hidalgo? Common. That guy played a solid CF and boy his 2000 season was incredible proving Astro management correct in their decision.

One thing is I'm not bashing Hunsicker. I think he's a fantastic GM and I wouldn't have anyone else. I felt that, in these cases, the Astros didn't put a whole lot of thought into these decisons. I don't mean that in a bad way, though. In 98 and 99 the Astros were Playoff contendors. They needed more depth. They needed good solid veterans. They weren't looking into the future, 2 or 3 years down the road.

Elarton was allrghit; he had a good year and then got injured. Hidalgo was arguably the best minor league prospect at one point. He had one good year, then a breakout year in 2000.

I just feel that if I were GM and was offered Clemens for Elarton and Hidalgo, I would go ahead with it. It's much easier to replace a good outfielder than a good ptcher, imo.

[Mr. Mooch]

I just had a mental lapse; how did they do in '98 again?

Meaning playoffs. RJ was the best pitcher during the second half of the season, but was shut down by Brown in the postseason.

[Greg M]

Originally posted by Mr. Mooch
I was talking merely about players. Obviously the Astros got more depth heading in to the postseason. Did it work? NOPE. I just had a mental lapse; how did they do in '98 again? And what do they have now from that trade? NOTHING.

As a General Manager, you can't control the outcome of the games. You get the best talent you can together and hopefully they'll win. In 1998 the Astros scored the most runs in the NL and their ERA was second in the league. The addidition of Johson made them World Series contenders. It didn't work out due to the fluke performances of Hitchcock and Leyritz.

OK here's a scenerio:

The Astros are neck and neck with the Cardinals at the trade deadline later this year but the team's not getting much out of the bottom of the rotation. The team can score runs like crazy but a couple of starters just blow. You think man, if only the team had one more starter we'd be walking away with the division and we'd be better than ANY team in the NL.

Meanwhile on the east coast, the Yankees are on their way to the division title while the Red Sox have completely collapsed making Pedro Martinez available for the right price. Playoff teams are salivating at the chance of having Pedro throw bee-bees in October. You think about a playoff rotation of Pedro, Oswalt and Miller with the likes of Bagwell, Berkman and Kent pounding in the runs. Add in the stellar bullpen and you can start to see the promised land. Your 2003 World Series Champion Houston Astros!!!!

The catch is that Boston wants three top prospects and the team has NO money to re-sign Pedro in the offseason so this will be one one year rental. Would you make the deal for a chance to win the whole thing?

Me, I wouldn't bat an eye. Hector Gimenez is the only untouchable prospect in my eye.

One thing is I'm not bashing Hunsicker. I think he's a fantastic GM and I wouldn't have anyone else. I felt that, in these cases, the Astros didn't put a whole lot of thought into these decisons. I don't mean that in a bad way, though. In 98 and 99 the Astros were Playoff contendors. They needed more depth. They needed good solid veterans. They weren't looking into the future, 2 or 3 years down the road.

Huh?

Needed good solid veterans? How about Ausmus, Bagwell, Biggio, Spiers, Alou, Everett, Reynolds, Johnson(Randy not Russ) and Wagner?

Weren't looking to the future 2 to 3 years down the road? Then how did the win the division 3 years later in 2001? And now this season they look prime again.

Elarton was allrghit; he had a good year and then got injured. Hidalgo was arguably the best minor league prospect at one point. He had one good year, then a breakout year in 2000.

Elarton destroyed the minor leagues. And he was well on his way to becoming an elite pitcher in the major after 1998 and 1999. The guy had better stuff than Freddy Garcia. Again there was no foresight that he would have arm problems.

I just feel that if I were GM and was offered Clemens for Elarton and Hidalgo, I would go ahead with it. It's much easier to replace a good outfielder than a good ptcher, imo.

Clemens isn't really a good pitcher. So he's from Katy. Big freakin' deal. He's slightly above average and costs a ton. He's half the pitcher Randy Johnson is. At the time, Elarton was just as good as Clemens and Hidalgo was on the verge of bustin out. Without using hindsight, why would you trade a pitcher who's just about as good as the other guy while adding an up and coming outfielder and taking on about $8 million in additional salary?

I really don't get the fascination with Clemens.

[peleincubus]

great Great GREAT post Greg M:D

[jtotheb]

Greg, I think you posed a very interesting scenario there:

I'd also make that trade for Pedro....in a freaking heartbeat. That would definitely give the Astros a great shot at the post season and beyond.

Speaking of beyond: does anyone elso find it REAL depressing when you think about all the contracts that are up for renewal after this season, and the fact that Drayton is not very likely to spend a lot to renew those contracts.....meaning we could very well lose Dotel, Oswalt, Miller, Ausmus, etc. etc. etc.?

[Preston27]

I don't believe Oswalt has been in the majors long enough to be a FA, I could be wrong. I'm thinking arbitration in that case. Losing Ausmus won't be a huge blow, as John Buck is just about ready for the bigs, and Hector Giminez(sp?) is well on his way. I hope I am right about these things, and the Astros can resign some of our free agents.

[Greg M]

Oswalt and Miller will be in their second years of arbitration while Dotel will have his last year under club control next season. This is when the big paydays start to come in. Keep in mind that after 2004, Berkman will be a FA. Pray for these 4 guys to stay in Blood 'n Mud.

[Buck Turgidson]

I'm not worried about Berkman leaving Houston, he's said several times that he'd like to emulate Bagwell & Biggio & play out his career here.

WaMi & Roy are a different story, it'll be interesting to see how Drayton & Gerry handle this over the next few years. I can see Wagner getting traded this offseason and having a Lidge/Dotel combo to handle the 8th/9th innnings.

[Baqui99]

Nobody here mentions the ass-raping dealt to the Mets when we got Dotel and Cedeno (bust) for that lunatic, Carl Everett.

[bobrek]

Originally posted by Baqui99
Nobody here mentions the ass-raping dealt to the Mets when we got Dotel and Cedeno (bust) for that lunatic, Carl Everett.

The Astros traded Hampton for Dotel and Cedeno.

They traded Carl Everett for Adam Everett and Greg Miller.

[bobrek]

Also, Derek Bell was included with Hampton in the Mets deal.

[Greg M]

And don't forget Kyle Kessel! He's was the icing on the cake in the Hampton trade. What a prospect! :p