View Full Version : RB Davis agrees to play close to home in Carolina
nWo34Life
03-13-2003, 07:31 AM
I guess the Texans didn't pursue him as much as Carolina....
http://espn.go.com/nfl/columns/clayton_john/1522388.html
The Panthers reached an agreement in principle Wednesday night with former Redskins halfback Stephen Davis.
Following a day of negotiations in the Panthers office with his agent, David Canter, Davis accepted a five-year, $15.5 million deal that will pay him more than $4 million in the first year of the contract. To reward him for performance, Davis can receive as much as $3.6 million a year in incentives that could ultimately push the deal to a $36 million over five years.
For Davis, a native of Spartanburg, S.C., signing with the Panthers gives him a chance to play near home. Talks with the Panthers picked up over the past two days when the team took a more aggressive posture than the Houston Texans in trying to sign Davis.
Carolina and Houston were Davis' only visits. What complicated negotiations was that the Texans only talked in vague terms and didn't make a firm offer. The Panthers were strong in their commitment from the start.
"Stephen wanted to be in Carolina because this was his hometown team,'' Canter said. "It's a great situation for him there. He wants to prove that he is one of the best backs in the NFL''
The 29-year-old halfback has consistently been among the best runners in the NFL. From 1999 to 2001, Davis gained 4,155 yards. Injuries and a new offense limited his chances in 2002, when Davis rushed for 820 yards on 207 carries, maintaining a 4-yard average. He had seven rushing touchdowns this past season.
After being released by the Redskins, Davis learned just how tough it is to make big money in free agency. Only seven teams shwoed interest in a running back at all, and most of those teams didn't fit for Davis.
The Tampa Bay Buccaneers, for example, only have the cap room to offer a running back deal close to the NFL minimum. The Lions may be looking to eventually replace James Stewart, but replacing a 31-year-old Stewart with a 29-year-old Davis wouldn't be a priority.
And while the Cowboys may be looking for the replacement for Emmitt Smith, it would hard for that replacement be Davis, who played for the rival Redskins. The Bears want to upgrade their backfield, but they will wait until the draft to do that.
That left Carolina and Houston.
Philosophically, the Panthers like to load their deals with incentives, and the concept appealed to Davis. He'll receive a $2.5 million signing bonus along with an additional $500,000 roster bonus. Including his base salary and workout bonuses, Davis will make $4.1 million in 2003.
PhiSlammaJamma
03-13-2003, 09:08 AM
Oh man. That reall hurts. Show me the money!
VesceySux
03-13-2003, 09:17 AM
Woo-hoo! Stacey Mack time, baby! :rolleyes:
$3 million per year (plus a $2.5 million signing bonus) for a premier running back, and the Texans couldn't match that offer? Huh? Are you freaking kidding me? How much is Wiegert making? We have like $18 million in cap space. How about opening the wallet a little bit, Casserly? C'mon, man. You can't build exclusively through the draft...
rezdawg
03-13-2003, 09:32 AM
Drayton is poisoning the Texans now with his "dont spend money" attitude.
Refman, its only a joke. ;)
Have the Texans gotten any of their targets? Are they waiting for bargains after June 1?
Summer Song Giver
03-13-2003, 10:41 AM
Free Agency is a way IMO to add a missing piece to an already contending team. Carolina and Jville built quickly and were forced to rebuild shortly thereafter, something Carolina is having a hard time recovering from. If I were the Texans brass I would try and use this signing to our advantage and see if the Panthers would be willing to part with Deshaun Foster for one of our third round picks. He was highly touted last year and injuries never allowed him to get going and prove what he could do. I guarantee this signing will not make Carolina that much better nor would it have made the Texans much better. Patience is the key with this team, Rome wasn't built overnight. It startles me to see some haters already voicing their opinions when less than a year ago Mcnair and Casserly were the perfect combo, I still think they are.
BobFinn*
03-13-2003, 10:55 AM
Foster has a history of injuries (UCLA). I would stay clear of him. I hope the Texans have a backup plan, because Davis would have drastically improved our offense.
Groogrux
03-13-2003, 10:56 AM
They're not sure that Foster will ever play again, so I'm pretty sure that they won't be giving up any picks for him.
This does suck, but it's not like we were going to go to the playoffs next year anyway. I'll be happy with Mack.
DieHard Rocket
03-13-2003, 11:05 AM
Great analysis, SSG.
Davis would've been nice, but he wouldn't have improved our team <i>that</i> much (not without an improved O-line anyway), and it would've dented into our cap space.
If we can improve the O-line, the running game will improve no matter who we have back there. Here's to hoping that if we sign Mack he will have a Priest Holmes-like breakout season.
eric.81
03-13-2003, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Summer Song Giver
Free Agency is a way IMO to add a missing piece to an already contending team. Carolina and Jville built quickly and were forced to rebuild shortly thereafter, something Carolina is having a hard time recovering from. If I were the Texans brass I would try and use this signing to our advantage and see if the Panthers would be willing to part with Deshaun Foster for one of our third round picks. He was highly touted last year and injuries never allowed him to get going and prove what he could do. I guarantee this signing will not make Carolina that much better nor would it have made the Texans much better. Patience is the key with this team, Rome wasn't built overnight. It startles me to see some haters already voicing their opinions when less than a year ago Mcnair and Casserly were the perfect combo, I still think they are.
I totally agree. Whereas signing Davis would've been great, we all have to think in terms of about three or four years. That is the time frame Casserly and his staff are using. By that account, we have two to three more years of building.
Scenario: What if Davis rushed for 1,200 yards in each of the next 2 years but due to Carr's growing pains, the young line, the defense, etc. we only win 5 - 6 games in each of those years. Then, as it looks like the rest of our team is in place after these two building years, a much older Davis tears his ACL in training camp and goes Jamal Anderson on us, never being the same again.
Yeah, with Davis, we'd be a lot better, but I'd only be more upset if we were closer to being a contender now and THEN we let him get away.,
Possum
03-13-2003, 11:36 AM
I'm glad to see some common sense take over this thread towards the end. :o
It takes three things to lure quality FAs to a team -- the possibility of winning, money, and, oh yeah money.
The Texans need to be perceived as improving, getting ready to contend AND have cap bucks available or they will forever be needy.
CriscoKidd
03-13-2003, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by xiki
It takes three things to lure quality FAs to a team -- the possibility of winning, money, and, oh yeah money.
dont forget playing time. and money.
I dont think getting SD would have made that much of a difference longterm, but it sure would have made the games a whole lot more interesting to watch this year.
VesceySux
03-13-2003, 12:10 PM
No question about it: Davis would've helped Carr grow as a QB.
Defenses will not respect nor fear our running game with either Mack (yet to be signed, I may add) or Wells as the feature back. With a weak RB, you'll see a lot of 3rd and long situations this year (in which the defense will just drop back into coverage and wait for the predictable passing situation). I don't want Carr to think he has to "do it all by himself," especially as a young QB. That's a lot of pressure to bear. I also don't want Carr to become discouraged and lose confidence if he throws more interceptions this year (which will happen if defenses don't respect our running game). Now, if we pick up an Onterrio Smith/Justin Fargas/Larry Johnson in the draft, then, all right, perhaps we'll be okay going into the season. However, as it stands now, our running game flat-out sucks, and defenses will KNOW that we're going to passpasspasspasspass. Plus, as Crisco mentioned, Davis would've made the games more enjoyable.
As far as free agency goes, I just want to show other free agents out there that the Texans do mean business and are willing to be players in this market (to some extent, mind you). To date, we've lost out on Davis, Rosevelt Colvin, Keith Newman, Jeff Posey, Mike Peterson, Takeo Spikes, and we'll probably lose out on the Orlando Pace and Kyle Turley sweepstakes. Who knows? We might even lose out on Mack and Haggans (restricted FA from Pittsburgh), and they're not exactly hot commodities, either. What gets my goat is that there were FAs out there who we were clearly interested in, and we just couldn't seal the deal (besides Wiegert). I understand the point about "going to a contender," but, c'mon, is Carolina honestly a contender?
Keep in mind, too, that when I wrote the above post, I didn't know about the incentives in Davis' contract. All I saw was "$3 million a year, plus a $2.5 mill signing bonus," and I became enraged. That deal in itself is a bargain for him. Add in the incentives, and well, it's not such a great deal. However, I still feel that if Houston really wanted Davis, they could've signed him before Carolina got their hooks into him (and threw more money at him). Remember, Houston was Davis' first destination on his (short) visit list, and his agent came down to negotiate. So, pray tell, what happened? :mad:
Originally posted by VesceySux
We have like $18 million in cap space. How about opening the wallet a little bit, Casserly? C'mon, man.
you're a good guy, but flat wrong, here. they currently have $12M, not $18M, and they still have to sign 14 draft picks next month, at least five restricted free agents i'm sure they'd like to extend beyond the one-year tender (black, dawson, dennis, miller, stanley) and at least five of their own free agents they'd like to bring back (bell, brown, deloach, schau, simmons).
Originally posted by VesceySux
You can't build exclusively through the draft...
vescey, what two things do jamal lewis, ray lewis, jamie sharper, peter boulware, chris mcallister and duane starks all have in common? (drum roll, please) they were all raven draft picks and they were all core members of their 2000 SB championship. you most certainly can build through the draft, and with 28 picks in your first two years, why wouldn't you?
free agents become viable when your core's intact and you need to add pieces. the texans need more than pieces.
Originally posted by VesceySux
Defenses will not respect nor fear our running game with either Mack (yet to be signed, I may add) or Wells as the feature back... Now, if we pick up an Onterrio Smith/Justin Fargas/Larry Johnson in the draft, then, all right, perhaps we'll be okay going into the season... Plus, as Crisco mentioned, Davis would've made the games more enjoyable.
vescey, defenses will not respect a running game with either sanders or campbell in their prime if the OL doesn't improve. and to that end, casserly upgraded it; not significantly, but it's better right now, on paper, than at any time last year. and that goes for adding a rookie back, too.
this isn't a fantasy team where you can insert a player and automatically project a level of performance. i equate stephen davis to jermaine lewis. when we drafted lewis, everyone thought we'd have a formidable return game. i never bought it. it takes 11 guys to make something work in the NFL... if the OL struggles again this year, davis would've had the same impact lewis had (well, that's not an entirely fair comparison, 'cause davis would touch the ball far more often, but you get my point...)
as for making games more enjoyable, blah. if things work out, we'll have plenty of entertaining games from 2004 and beyond.
Originally posted by VesceySux
As far as free agency goes, I just want to show other free agents out there that the Texans do mean business and are willing to be players in this market (to some extent, mind you). To date, we've lost out on Davis, Rosevelt Colvin, Keith Newman, Jeff Posey, Mike Peterson, Takeo Spikes, and we'll probably lose out on the Orlando Pace and Kyle Turley sweepstakes. Who knows? We might even lose out on Mack and Haggans (restricted FA from Pittsburgh), and they're not exactly hot commodities, either. What gets my goat is that there were FAs out there who we were clearly interested in, and we just couldn't seal the deal (besides Wiegert). I understand the point about "going to a contender," but, c'mon, is Carolina honestly a contender?
no, but carolina is where davis lives in the offseason.
let's look at who we've lost out on and see if i can't offer some perspective:
davis -- CAR offered better (let's say easier) incentives and a chance to play near home.
colvin -- never had any interest in playing with HOU; that he came is a credit to what's happening here.
newman -- signed to play for the coach who oversaw his best seasons on a team that's an up-and-comer
posey -- he was an after-thought signing last year who thrived in a favorable system -- big loss?
we never met with spikes or peterson. (remember, peterson was a member of fangio's D in IND, the one that plummetted to last in the league because they couldn't/wouldn't learn the system).
Originally posted by VesceySux
So, pray tell, what happened?
they played hardball. if this team's being built for 2005 (and from day one, casserly has said that it is), how does davis get us closer to the playoffs in two years? is he a 1200-yard back in 2005? he's 29 and coming off nagging injuries. had the price been right (read: cap-friendly), i would have jumped all over him. but the texans set a ceiling and stuck to it.
they still have to build their core and find young, cheap players to fill in their depth -- these guys have a plan; have patience.
MadMax
03-13-2003, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by Ric
you're a good guy, but flat wrong, here. they currently have $12M, not $18M, and they still have to sign 14 draft picks next month, at least five restricted free agents i'm sure they'd like to extend beyond the one-year tender (black, dawson, dennis, miller, stanley) and at least five of their own free agents they'd like to bring back (bell, brown, deloach, schau, simmons).
vescey, what two things do jamal lewis, ray lewis, jamie sharper, peter boulware, chris mcallister and duane starks all have in common? (drum roll, please) they were all raven draft picks and they were all core members of their 2000 SB championship. you most certainly can build through the draft, and with 28 picks in your first two years, why wouldn't you?
free agents become viable when your core's intact and you need to add pieces. the texans need more than pieces.
vescey, defenses will not respect a running game with either sanders or campbell in their prime if the OL doesn't improve. and to that end, casserly upgraded it; not significantly, but it's better right now, on paper, than at any time last year. and that goes for adding a rookie back, too.
this isn't a fantasy team where you can insert a player a project such a level of performance. i equate stephen davis to jermaine lewis. when we drafted lewis, everyone thought we'd have a formidable return game. i never bought it. it takes 11 guys to make something work in the NFL... if the OL struggles again this year, davis would've had the same impact lewis had (well, that's not an entirely fair comparison, 'cause davis would touch the ball far more often, but you get my point...)
as for making games more enjoyable, blah. if things work out, we'll have plenty of entertaining games from 2004 and beyond.
no, but carolina is where davis lives in the offseason.
let's look at who we've lost out on and see if i can't offer some perspective:
davis -- CAR offered better (let's say easier) incentives and a chance to play near home.
colvin -- never had any interest in playing with HOU; that he came is a credit to what's happening here.
newman -- signed to play for the coach who oversaw his best seasons on a team that's an up-and-comer
posey -- he was an after-thought signing last year who thrived in a favorable system -- big loss?
we never met with spikes or peterson. (remember, peterson was a member of fangio's D in IND, the one that plummetted to last in the league because they couldn't/wouldn't learn the system).
they played hardball. if this team's being built for 2005 (and from day one, casserly has said that it is), how does davis get us closer to the playoffs in two years? is he a 1200-yard back in 2005? he's 29 and coming off nagging injuries. had the price been right (read: cap-friendly), i would have jumped all over him. but the texans set a ceiling and stuck to it.
they still have to build their core and find young, cheap players to fill in their depth -- these guys have a plan; have a patience.
you're smart....
Originally posted by MadMax
you're smart....
(in my best han solo) i know....
Oh well, the Texans will move on.
Good luck to Davis.
VesceySux
03-13-2003, 04:33 PM
Ric, don't take my tone the wrong way below. I've got nothing but love for you, man. I just like to argue. :)
Originally posted by Ric
you're a good guy, but flat wrong, here. they currently have $12M, not $18M, and they still have to sign 14 draft picks next month, at least five restricted free agents i'm sure they'd like to extend beyond the one-year tender (black, dawson, dennis, miller, stanley) and at least five of their own free agents they'd like to bring back (bell, brown, deloach, schau, simmons).
... So you're saying that if we just sign our own free agents, we're going to be better in the long-run? I don't buy it. You keep saying over and over that we need EVERYTHING (except a QB). If you can upgrade at a position or two, why not do it? That is, without completely breaking the bank for average players (*cough**Dre'Bly**cough*). Who says we're looking at mult-year deals for these tendered guys, anyway? Do they really think they fit into our long-term plans? I'd rather sign an impact free agent than extend the contract of some scrub wide receiver who couldn't hold his own in Cleveland. (Besides, who says we're keeping all 14 draft picks, anyway??)
vescey, what two things do jamal lewis, ray lewis, jamie sharper, peter boulware, chris mcallister and duane starks all have in common? (drum roll, please) they were all raven draft picks and they were all core members of their 2000 SB championship. you most certainly can build through the draft, and with 28 picks in your first two years, why wouldn't you?
Hey, I'm a big proponent for building through the draft. Notice the use of the word "exclusively." And I won't deny that Baltimore has drafted exceptionally well in the past years. BUT... what do the following players have in common?
Trent Dilfer
Shannon Sharpe
Sam Adams
That's right. They were all signed by Baltimore as free agents immediately PRIOR to the 2000 season. Now, what do these set of players have in common?
Rod Woodson
Tony Banks
Tony Siragusa
Qadry Ismail
Rob Burnett
Michael McCrary
Yep, they were all signed as free agents in the few years before the 2000 season championship. Pretty good set of free agent acquirees, I'd say. So good, in fact, that they arguably had more of a hand in winning the Super Bowl than the Ravens draftees did.
vescey, defenses will not respect a running game with either sanders or campbell in their prime if the OL doesn't improve. and to that end, casserly upgraded it; not significantly, but it's better right now, on paper, than at any time last year. and that goes for adding a rookie back, too.
How many times did I hear the words "Miami offensive line" and "suck" appear together in a sentence? Too many times to count. Yet, Ricky Williams, who had been a good back, but not a great back up to this point, rushed for more than 1800 yards this year behind that supposedly crappy line (the one that EVERY NFL analyst said sucked major donkey balls). Heck, Williams averaged 4.8 yds/carry, too. And, while on the subject of the O-line, you said that Barry Sanders couldn't even make defenses respect him behind our crappy line. Then...you go on to say that on paper, the line has been improved a bit. So, can Barry now run comfortably behind our line? Why not Stephen Davis? And to my credit, I did say that I'd feel a WHOLE LOT better if we got a rookie stud RB in the draft...
this isn't a fantasy team where you can insert a player and automatically project a level of performance. i equate stephen davis to jermaine lewis. when we drafted lewis, everyone thought we'd have a formidable return game. i never bought it. it takes 11 guys to make something work in the NFL... if the OL struggles again this year, davis would've had the same impact lewis had (well, that's not an entirely fair comparison, 'cause davis would touch the ball far more often, but you get my point...)
I disagree. I think Davis is enough of a playmaker (he is a Pro Bowl running back) to make his own yardage, if need be. He's averaged 4.0 yards/carry in each of the last 3 seasons. So, he seems pretty consistent, if you ask me. If he had signed here, I think he would have done very well this year. (But, now it's just a case of "shoulda, woulda, coulda...")
they played hardball. if this team's being built for 2005 (and from day one, casserly has said that it is), how does davis get us closer to the playoffs in two years? is he a 1200-yard back in 2005? he's 29 and coming off nagging injuries. had the price been right (read: cap-friendly), i would have jumped all over him. but the texans set a ceiling and stuck to it.
You can't play hardball with everyone, or you'll be left with scrubs. Are we gonna play hardball with Matt Stevens, too, when we fail to sign everyone else and have no where left to turn? :rolleyes: Davis made Houston his first trip, and it seemed like he really wanted to play here. At the very least, Davis could have been a leader and mentor to the young'uns (since we seem to be building through the draft only). For the time being, he would have been an effective stop-gap solution who could have helped Carr grow as a QB (see my above post). Besides, couldn't we use a little veteran leadership around the locker room, anyway? And as for injury-prone players, when has that ever stopped the Texans from scooping them up?
they still have to build their core and find young, cheap players to fill in their depth -- these guys have a plan; have patience.
Okay, I'll agree with you here. I can be patient, and hey, if I can trust in Rudy T, I can certainly trust in Charlie C. :) However, is one big-time free agent acquisition really too much to ask for?
Originally posted by CriscoKidd
dont forget playing time. and money.
Right, playing time. And money. Thanks.
Originally posted by VesceySux
... So you're saying that if we just sign our own free agents, we're going to be better in the long-run?
no, i'm not saying that. i simply mean you can't install the pretty french doors until you've laid the foundation.
we're $12M under the cap. i'd estimate, roughly, $5M of that is earmarked for our draft picks, however many that might be. leaves us roughly $7M, agreed?
do you really advocate using most of that, if not all of that, on one player? i'd do it if the one player put us over a hump, but there're no humps in our foreseeable future. so why blow your cap now, with nothing on the line andwhen you still have a roster that needs to be filled?
Originally posted by VesceySux
Hey, I'm a big proponent for building through the draft. Notice the use of the word "exclusively."
the texans aren't building through the draft exclusively; they're already starting to assemble foundation pieces: mckinney, sharper, wong, brown and stanley should all be contributors in 2005, as might bradford, possibly boselli and wiegert, billy miller, jay foreman, eric brown....
Originally posted by VesceySux
Yep, they were all signed as free agents in the few years before the 2000 season championship. Pretty good set of free agent acquirees, I'd say. So good, in fact, that they arguably had more of a hand in winning the Super Bowl than the Ravens draftees did.
first of all, the browns, aka ravens, drafted rob burnett.
but, hell, i'll include him in your list, anyway, because even with him, there is no way, no how the guys you listed had a bigger impact on that team than jamal lewis, ray lewis, jamie sharper, pete boulware, duane starks and chris mcallister. come on...
Originally posted by VesceySux
How many times did I hear the words "Miami offensive line" and "suck" appear together in a sentence?
apparently, more often than i did. i've certainly never heard the words "miami offensive line" and "one of the NFL's worst ever" in the same sentence, have you?
Originally posted by VesceySux
I disagree. I think Davis is enough of a playmaker (he is a Pro Bowl running back) to make his own yardage, if need be. He's averaged 4.0 yards/carry in each of the last 3 seasons. So, he seems pretty consistent, if you ask me. If he had signed here, I think he would have done very well this year. (But, now it's just a case of "shoulda, woulda, coulda...")
look, i'm not arguing against them signing davis; i was for it if he met their terms and not vice versa.
but having said that, to expect anything beyond a 800-yard season with a per carry average in the 3's would have been beyond unrealistic. davis, alone, doesn't make this a better team.
Originally posted by VesceySux
Davis made Houston his first trip, and it seemed like he really wanted to play here. At the very least, Davis could have been a leader and mentor to the young'uns (since we seem to be building through the draft only). For the time being, he would have been an effective stop-gap solution who could have helped Carr grow as a QB (see my above post). Besides, couldn't we use a little veteran leadership around the locker room, anyway?
vescey, what in h-e-double hockey sticks are you talking about? are you under the impression the team is made up of 53 rookies? boselli, mckinney, walker, payne, sharper, glenn, coleman, e. brown, mitchell, k. brown, bradford, wong, foreman... even matt stevens were all starters elsewhere. veteran leadership... come on!
as much as i would've welcomed the signing, stephen davis is not the missing link to anything involving the texans. he doesn't appreciably improve the team, he certainly doesn't sprinkle magic pixie dust on carr and make him better....
Originally posted by VesceySux
However, is one big-time free agent acquisition really too much to ask for?
what's the purpose? to satiate some silly fetish fans have with big names? let me ask you a question: did you consider jeff posey a big-time free agent acquisition this time last year? like a lot of us, you probably didn't even notice, and if you did notice, you probably didn't give it a second thought. now, you're upset we lost out on resigning him.
point being, you don't have to sign marquee players to improve your team.
Lil Francis
03-13-2003, 07:07 PM
This offseason is a bust. I was excitied about the free agency period and we didn't sign anybody. You can't depend on Andre Johnson to save the team in his rookie season. We need some proven impact players and we haven't landed one yet.
Originally posted by Lil Francis
This offseason is a bust. I was excitied about the free agency period and we didn't sign anybody. You can't depend on Andre Johnson to save the team in his rookie season. We need some proven impact players and we haven't landed one yet.
:rolleyes:
the offseason is two weeks old, and it's already a bust, huh? not waiting until after the draft, or even june 1 cuts... you've decided already it's a bust? let me guess, you used to be a cowboy fan?
and what's this saving the team nonsense? saving it from what?
Lil Francis
03-13-2003, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by Ric
:rolleyes:
the offseason is two weeks old, and it's already a bust, huh? not waiting until after the draft, or even june 1 cuts... you've decided already it's a bust? let me guess, you used to be a cowboy fan?
and what's this saving the team nonsense? saving it from what? :rolleyes: All the players who could have helped the team are gone HELLO. The June 1st cuts won't be as good as this period and you can't expect rookies to carry your team next year. The Texans need some proven players and they still haven't signed one yet. Instead of going after the lower class free agents we need to get some big time players.
VesceySux
03-13-2003, 09:54 PM
what's the purpose? to satiate some silly fetish fans have with big names? let me ask you a question: did you consider jeff posey a big-time free agent acquisition this time last year? like a lot of us, you probably didn't even notice, and if you did notice, you probably didn't give it a second thought. now, you're upset we lost out on resigning him.
Actually, I could care less about Posey. He was a decent linebacker made better in a 3-4 system. What I do care about is that the Texans wanted to sign him but couldn't, despite the money they had. You say we don't have much money, but we still have more than 97% of the other teams out there. I don't necessarily want to blow the cash on one player, but we've signed one free agent so far (and tendered a bunch more). Did I think we were going to get Colvin? No. But we did have the money to, and we did bring him in for a look (courtesy or not, he was in Houston). So, he signed with the Pats, and we set our sights on a second tier player: Keith Newman. But, alas, he signed with Atlanta over us. So, shall we move on to the third tier now? Who's left? Haggans? Nate Wayne (fat chance)? We KNOW the Texans want a free agent linebacker, yet they seem unable to sign anyone. That just irritates me. And what about running backs? Same situation.
Why can't we add an A-list player to our growing foundation? What's wrong with that? What are we saving our money for? Do we expect to use $7 million on second or third tier players only? In the end, I think this goes back to an earlier argument we had a while back when discussing draft picks: quality vs. quantity. You wanted to trade down in the draft. I wanted to trade up. I think this free agency argument is just an extension of the same old discussion.
Originally posted by VesceySux
You say we don't have much money, but we still have more than 97% of the other teams out there. I don't necessarily want to blow the cash on one player, but we've signed one free agent so far (and tendered a bunch more).
vescey, we may have more money, but we also have more needs. these other teams have had multiple drafts and multiple free agency periods, etc., etc., to fill out their rosters -- i would think this would be obvious.
it's our second year. you can't compare what we're doing with what other teams are doing. they can afford to add pieces, we still have needs all over the board. resigning guys like billy miller and jason bell and pat dennis, et al, might not register high on the excitement scale, but how excited would you be filling the roster out with 9th-tier players to accomodate one a-lister? that's making progress?
Originally posted by VesceySux
So, shall we move on to the third tier now?
did the NFL pass some mandate that the team had to sign an OLB? i'm thinking plan b, or, if you prefer, c, is terrell suggs. not a terrible consolation prize, is it?
Originally posted by VesceySux
Why can't we add an A-list player to our growing foundation?
this reads so whiney... look, man, it's not always about money. boston went to a playoff contender (and one of america's prettiest cities), colvin went to a SB contender, newman went to a SB contender (and his former coach), posey went to a playoff contender (and made a mistake, imo, but...), davis went home to carolina... having money is not the be all end all in free agency. it's not like casserly can snap his fingers and make it happen.
besides, from the "how quickly they forget" file, we added 4-6 a-list players last year -- name a team that, in one offseason, added the likes of tony boselli, ryan young, jamie sharper, aaron glenn, gary walker and seth payne, not to mention kris brown, kailee wong, steve mckinney, corey bradford...
btw, notice how none of them came in the college draft?
they're building their foundation... give 'em some time.
Originally posted by Lil Francis
:rolleyes: All the players who could have helped the team are gone HELLO. The June 1st cuts won't be as good as this period and you can't expect rookies to carry your team next year. The Texans need some proven players and they still haven't signed one yet. Instead of going after the lower class free agents we need to get some big time players.
so, let's see, not only have you labeled the texans' two-week old offseason a bust, but now you've gone ahead and dismissed the june 1st cuts a full three months before they've even taken place?
moving on, where, exactly, is this team supposed to be carried to this year? further, why must rookies do all the hoisting? is tony boselli a rookie? how about zach wiegert? chester pitts? steve mckinney? david carr? jabar gaffney? gary walker? seth payne? jamie sharper? jay foreman? kailee wong? aaron glenn? marcus coleman? kris brown? chad stanley?
you read like a petulant child not getting what they want. relax. pam anderson wasn't built in a day -- the texans have a terrific nucleus, have a chance to add more studs to it next month and there're still quality players available in free agent who can help fill out the roster, give it some depth.
Gortok
03-13-2003, 10:42 PM
relax. pam anderson wasn't built in a day
I bet Pam Anderson had magic pixie dust.
Band Geek Mobster
03-13-2003, 11:26 PM
I think this is actually good news for the Texans. I personally think Stephen Davis is overrated and simply not a "feature back" without a good line blocking for him.
This team apparently sucked last year, they'll suck again next year with or without Davis. I say build a team (OL/CB/LB/HB/QB/WR) through the draft, and then fill in the remaining holes (Safeties/DL/OL/LB) later.
The secret in the NFL is knowing when to go for it all. If you start committing to Decent/Solid players too early, you'll find yourself in a hole before you even break it into the playoffs. This team needs at least 1-2 seasons before we should be worried about filling in the minor holes through FA.
VesceySux
03-13-2003, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by Ric
did the NFL pass some mandate that the team had to sign an OLB? i'm thinking plan b, or, if you prefer, c, is terrell suggs. not a terrible consolation prize, is it?
Don't hinge your hopes on a unproven rookie. Especially one that may not be there on draft day. So, what's plan D? ... And yes, the NFL did pass a mandate about OLBs. They're kind of required to play the game of football. As it turns out, we could really use one, and the Texans have so far done jack filling that hole (that is, unless you really think Chukwurah -- who's got a Topps rookie card put out by yours truly -- is somehow the answer...)
besides, from the "how quickly they forget" file, we added 4-6 a-list players last year -- name a team that, in one offseason, added the likes of tony boselli, ryan young, jamie sharper, aaron glenn, gary walker and seth payne, not to mention kris brown, kailee wong, steve mckinney, corey bradford...
Uh, most of those guys were drafted by us in the expansion draft. It's not like they had a choice to come here. But, hey, I'll take them any way I can get them, I guess. You can't include Ryan Young because he's no longer with the team. Boselli has yet to play a down for us. McKinney, Payne (who went to my alma mater), and Bradford are not A-list material. That leaves us with only Wong as the only free agent signee considered to be A-list from last year. And this year, we've so far signed zilch. (And if you say Wiegert is A-list, I think I'm gonna scream.) It's not like we haven't had plenty of opportunites to nab some good players. Great city. Fantastic facilities. Good management. Rabid fans. Decent cap room. Buuuuuuut nope. Not a one signed here. Instead, they all wanted to go to powerhouses, like Buffalo, Arizona, Carolina, Seattle, and San Diego. :rolleyes:
One thing I will say about last year, though, is that I have to give the Texans credit for taking QUALITY players in the expansion draft, rather than just taking everybody they could to fill out a team. Kudos.
CriscoKidd
03-14-2003, 12:05 AM
Just curious Vescey, how many A-list fas do you think are out there this year?
And out of those, how many do you think would have seriously thought about coming to Houston w/o being grossly overpaid?
Possum
03-14-2003, 12:29 AM
VesceySux PLEASE STOP! This is like watching a rocket scientist try to explain quantum physics to spoiled rotten 11 year old with a superiority complex. :D
VesceySux
03-14-2003, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by CriscoKidd
Just curious Vescey, how many A-list fas do you think are out there this year?
And out of those, how many do you think would have seriously thought about coming to Houston w/o being grossly overpaid?
I consider Colvin, Boston, Davis, Spikes, and Hugh Douglas to be A-list players. (Boston is from Houston, and Colvin & Davis came to visit.) Out of those guys, Davis seemed to be the only semi-cheap possibility. (Do you expect to get A-list talent for peanuts??)
Now, who would sign here, you ask? Why not any or all of them? Like I stated before, if FAs are going to Cincinnati and Carolina, why not Houston? Hey, according to Casserly's plan, we're gonna compete and win the Super Bowl in 2005 (3 season away). In theory, the guys who sign a deal with us will still be around during that run. Can't they be a part of this famous foundation, too?
If you think I'm acting like a brat, then I have a big, ole :rolleyes: for you. Do I expect top-notch free agents to sign here? Err, not really. At least not this year. Did I expect Stephen Davis (the lone interested star) to sign here? Yes! Did I expect Keith Newman to sign here? Yes! Did I expect Posey to re-up? Yes. Was it possible to get Colvin? Yes. Could we have made a pitch to Boston? Probably. (Although, whether he's worth signing is another issue.) Did I think there was a chance we'd get Cory Hall? Sure. Yet, none of them signed. It's not the Colvins and the Bostons of the free agent market I'm worried about (although they would be nice). When second and third tier players spurn us, too, I get pissed and slightly worried. So... if we're not going to be players in this FA market (and it suuuure looks that way), we better damn well draft well, and if we can't even do that (with a combination of good scouting and ample luck), then we're screwed, plain and simple. If Casserly wants to put all his eggs in one basket, fine. Apparently, the next 2 years are just practice and training, anyway...
(Okay, now you have officially made me bitter. Kudos on a job well done. :D )
Originally posted by VesceySux
When second and third tier players spurn us, too, I get pissed and slightly worried. So... if we're not going to be players in this FA market (and it suuuure looks that way), we better damn well draft well, and if we can't even do that (with a combination of good scouting and ample luck), then we're screwed, plain and simple.
so you'd rather them overpay second and third tier players....? that's your plan?! that's somehow going to make this a better team, overpaying b and c-listers? if you think that's the path to football nirvana, why don't you go root for the redskins? they've overpaid average-to-mediocre players in spades this offseason.
vescey, you have your head so filled with stars, man, you're having trouble thinking clearly. the texans have been active -- they signed wiegert, they traded for randall, they tendered a half dozen guys, and they resigned foreman and brown, two starters from last year. and the free agent period is far from over and there's still june 1 cuts as well as training camp cuts. they're also going to add two of the top 40 college players in the country to a foundation that already includes.:
a franchise QB (carr)
a dependable OL (mckinney)
a burgeoning #2 WR (gaffney)
a possible franchise LT (boselli)
an extremely promising, and now versatile, OL (pitts)
a pass-catching TE (miller)
two stud DL (walker and payne)
a stud LB (sharper)
a solid LB (wong)
two starting CBs, one a pro bowler (glenn and coleman)
two reliable kickers (brown and stanley)
of that group, boselli, walker, glenn and coleman are the only ones who might not figure into their 2005 plans, in other words, relax, man, they're well ahead of schedule. browns fans would've killed for this kind of start to their franchise....
i mean, look at it this way, bill parcells, the genius builder, brought in to ressurect the cowboys, who, i think we can agree, are not too far removed from the texans... and they've signed how many FAs this year? anderson, young, they resigned flozell and traded for terry glenn. it's not a great crop, despite what ESPN says, and looks like parcells thinks the same way casserly does -- throwingyour money at this crop to satisfy whiney fans is a terrible way to build a franchise.
VesceySux
03-14-2003, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by Ric
so you'd rather them overpay second and third tier players....? that's your plan?! that's somehow going to make this a better team, overpaying b and c-listers?
Heavens, no. I'm not looking to overpay anyone, especially scrubs. Dre' Bly, an average-at-best player, signed a ridiculous deal. I'd totally blast the Texans if they did something that inane. But I will begrudgingly acknowledge that when you really want a player (and it seems the Texans had several in their sights), you're going to have to overbid for their services. That's just the name of the game. Name one player that got a reasonable contract so far this offseason. Chances are, everyone signed in the past 2 weeks has been overpaid. Even our friend, Zach Wiegert. I'd much rather overpay a star than a scrub. With our available cap room, I see no reason why we can't frontload a contract for this year and avoid high albatross-like salaries later on. Heck, why bother restructuring Boselli's contract if we're not gonna play with the big boys in free agency? Now, I'm not saying we should spend for the sake of spending (or go gung-ho like the freaking Redskins), but we do have plenty of holes, right? We need starters.
...in other words, relax, man, they're well ahead of schedule. browns fans would've killed for this kind of start to their franchise....
Yes, they're off to a good start. However, I have trouble depending almost solely on a draft where anything can happen, good or bad. Sure, we'll get a top player, but you take the chance that 1) you won't get the player you want, 2) you won't fill the correct positions of need (to predict you: yes, we have holes everywhere, but Terrell "Plan B" Suggs may not be there for us), and 3) that player will be a huge bust. If we pick up a Mike Mamula-type guy, will that set us back in the building process? What then? At least with free agency, you more or less know what you're getting with a player (assuming, you have an adequate scouting team). I say hedge your bets. You need a decent mix of FAs and home-grown talent. But we're not playing for anything important now, are we? This is all just practice. "Sorry, fans. No need to compete now in this mediocre league, where every team has a shot to win. Come back in 2 years when we're good and ready. We'll surely be the best then." Well, I say, "Darn it, I want to win NOW -- or at least compete." Living here in the land of "Rebuilding Be Damned" (also known as New York City) surely must have rubbed off on me. However, I know I'm not alone. There are other Texans fans who feel the same way, and they don't live in NY. Am I impatient? Actually, no I'm not. I just think it is possible to compete and build for the future at the same time. So, does thinking so make me crazy? Maybe, maybe no. I'm not telling. :D
Maybe I should change my moniker to Veruca Salt...
the texans fielded a competitive team last year, vescey; their 4 wins was the second most ever by an expansion team, and they went into the 4th quarter of 9 other games with a legitimate chance of winning. is that the sign a team that's telling its fans to wait until 2005? no, it most certainly isn't.
they're building a team that will not only win in 3 years, but be able to keep its core intact, and add to it what they need to by staying out of cap trouble. you do that by not foolishly throwing money around to satisfy impatient fans like you. every year, there's a stephen davis, or a david boston, or a rosevelt colvin available -- this wasn't a once-in-a-lifetime free agent class. when they're ready to start adding pieces, they will.
until then, they lack starters and depth at virtually every position and don't have a lot of cap. again you can't build the house until you lay the slab of concrete.
mrpaige
03-14-2003, 02:49 PM
You think Drayton McLane has come by this thread and said to himself, "Thank God for the Texans for keeping fans off my case"?
rezdawg
03-14-2003, 03:03 PM
Just to throw my opinion out there, I would have liked to get Davis. But, at the same time, it feels good to know that we have that money for later use. There is no rush. If I wanted to make the playoffs next year, I would be pissed. But, I really dont care how they do as long as they show up on the field on Sundays. Football is back in Houston and thats more than I can ask for.
And for all of you that think the free agency period is over, you may be a more than surprised when the June 1st cuts arrive. This offseason is still fresh.
Originally posted by mrpaige
You think Drayton McLane has come by this thread and said to himself, "Thank God for the Texans for keeping fans off my case"?
i was thinking the same thing... btw, whoever had 51 weeks in the "How Long Will the Texans' Honeymoon in Houston Last" office pool, please come forward and accept your prize. what a shame...
VesceySux
03-14-2003, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Ric
i was thinking the same thing... btw, whoever had 51 weeks in the "How Long Will the Texans' Honeymoon in Houston Last" office pool, please come forward and accept your prize. what a shame...
Oh, sweet, delicious irony. That person happens to be me. :)
PhiSlammaJamma
03-15-2003, 05:32 PM
Looks like Orlando Pace will be traded now. And the trade is being forced so the price should drop. Keep your fingers crossed. I think he'd be a great addition. And if Boselli ever does come come back we'd be a real force.
Originally posted by PhiSlammaJamma
Looks like Orlando Pace will be traded now. And the trade is being forced so the price should drop. Keep your fingers crossed. I think he'd be a great addition. And if Boselli ever does come come back we'd be a real force.
have you heard his asking price? 10 years, $85M with a $24M signing bonus. you have to pay him that and part with your top pick... uhm.... yeah. i'm gonna take a pass on that one...
i'd rather they pursue turley.
rezdawg
03-16-2003, 12:25 PM
With that price tag, the Texans would be better off putting me at LT.
rrj_gamz
03-17-2003, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Ric
i'd rather they pursue turley.
I agree...
It was a shame to not get Davis, however, with the proper O-Line in place, Wells and the draft pick should suffice....
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