No Standing O for Bush

[rimrocker]

This guy's going to commit us to war and he doesn't have the guts to go talk to people who disagree with him unless they pretend they do agree?
________________

BUSH: CLAP ME OR NO EU SPEECH

Mar 8 2003

By Paul Gilfeather

GEORGE Bush pulled out of a speech to the European Parliament when MEPs wouldn't guarantee a standing ovation.

Senior White House officials said the President would only go to Strasbourg to talk about Iraq if he had a stage-managed welcome.

A source close to negotiations said last night: "President Bush agreed to a speech but insisted he get a standing ovation like at the State of the Union address.

"His people also insisted there were no protests, or heckling.

"I believe it would be a crucial speech for Mr Bush to make in light of the opposition here to war. But unless he only gets adulation and praise, then it will never happen."

Mr Bush's every appearance in the US is stage-managed, with audiences full of supporters.

It was hoped he would speak after he welcomed Warsaw pact nations to Nato in Prague last November. But his refusal to speak to EU leaders face-to-face is seen as a key factor in the split between the US-UK coalition and Europe.

The source added: "Relations between the EU and the US are worsening fast - this won't help."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12713155&method=full&siteid=50143

[ZRB]

I can't wait for the republicans on the board to explain this...

[Roc Paint]

It really doesn't matter wether or not you the people think this region is a threat or not, because we are going to stomp a mud hole in their *** anyway.

USA

[robbie380]

ok this just seems odd and quite frankly doesn't make much sense. also the mirror is a tabloid...give a reliable source.

[The Real Shady]

A tabloid from the uk..............:rolleyes:

[4chuckie]

Originally posted by robbie380
ok this just seems odd and quite frankly doesn't make much sense. also the mirror is a tabloid...give a reliable source.

Exactly, thank you robbie.

Maybe somone can find an Enquirer article that says Saddam does have WMD so we can goto war!

[Cohen]

Originally posted by ZRB
I can't wait for the republicans on the board to explain this...

I'll take you up on that, whether I'm a Republican or not... :rolleyes: ...

Mirror Page 1 News: 'Not in Our Name - Daily Mirror
Click here to register your oppoistion To war on Iraq without UN backing'

...(oh yeah, and don't worry,we're unbiased in our reporting) :rolleyes:

You can believe it if you'd like ZRB. I'll wait until someone else reports the story.

[Bailey]

You can hardly blame a newspaper for representing the views of 85% of the population...

[Cohen]

Originally posted by Bailey
You can hardly blame a newspaper for representing the views of 85% of the population...

We can't?

Journalism: The style of writing characteristic of material in newspapers and magazines, consisting of direct presentation of facts or occurrences with little attempt at analysis or interpretation.

[Chance]

Originally posted by ZRB
I can't wait for the republicans on the board to explain this...

Gladly.

Paul Gilfeather...Now he's a well respected, well rounded journalist, right? Hmm... I wonder if this is the dame Paul Gilfeather than won the prestigious Bigot of the Year 2000 (http://www.mind.org.uk/press-room/press_page.asp?ID=34) Award? Judging by content I would a say yes! It is the same guy! I wonder if this is the same tree hugging whack job that reported this startling piece of news! (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12469675&method=full&siteid=50143) I think so! Now I hate to challenge another man's character with quotes from an obscure website so I won't . Oh wait, rimrocket did so I guess it's o.k. (http://www.wordcarpentry.com/polrel/2002_02.html) Quick Excerpt The author of The Mirror story is Paul Gilfeather. The same journalist who in 2000 was voted Bigot of the Year by MIND, the mental health charity. The citation reads: "Paul Gilfeather's article was inaccurate and used twisted facts. He made the briefest attempt to get a balance, but this was a token. The worst part of the piece was the use of emotive language that confirmed old and ill-placed prejudices." Probably not the best source to rely on for accuracy, then. (do a page search for Gilf and it'll go right to it.) You should be more careful with your hat hanging selections. This guys is nobody. To his credit, I found three articles out there about him. No Bio's, but 3 articles. And I found a couple hundred articles where he was quoted. Mostly by leftist websites (Greenpeace for one) All of the quotes were drawn from the same couple of articles.

So I challenge the authenticity of the quote.I think it's a bunch of sh!t.

Actually, there is a much stronger reason why I think it's horsesh!t. This article came out yesterday. If it were true, a real reporter would have found it. That same real reporter would have run with it. And the rest of the real press would be all over it this morning. And as I watch CNN, I see no reference to it. So it's crap.

[4chuckie]

Originally posted by Bailey
You can hardly blame a newspaper for representing the views of 85% of the population...

Which population? US citizens or World population?

If it's US then you're totally wrong, most polls I have saws is about 50-50% (or into thirds if the answer is goto war w/o UN approval, goto war w/ UN approval, not goto war)

As for the world I also don't think it's 85%. Maybe it's 85% of the Iraq population or 85% of the terrorists don't want their safe harbor blown up. You see alot of people out protesting and that's their right. But there are many more people sitting at home waiting for Saddam to be ousted.

[DuncanIdaho]

Originally posted by Chance
Gladly.

Paul Gilfeather...Now he's a well respected, well rounded journalist, right? Hmm... I wonder if this is the dame Paul Gilfeather than won the prestigious Bigot of the Year 2000 (http://www.mind.org.uk/press-room/press_page.asp?ID=34) Award? Judging by content I would a say yes! It is the same guy! I wonder if this is the same tree hugging whack job that reported this startling piece of news! (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=12469675&method=full&siteid=50143) I think so! Now I hate to challenge another man's character with quotes from an obscure website so I won't . Oh wait, rimrocket did so I guess it's o.k. (http://www.wordcarpentry.com/polrel/2002_02.html) Quick Excerpt (do a page search for Gilf and it'll go right to it.) You should be more careful with your hat hanging selections. This guys is nobody. To his credit, I found three articles out there about him. No Bio's, but 3 articles. And I found a couple hundred articles where he was quoted. Mostly by leftist websites (Greenpeace for one) All of the quotes were drawn from the same couple of articles.

So I challenge the authenticity of the quote.I think it's a bunch of sh!t.

Actually, there is a much stronger reason why I think it's horsesh!t. This article came out yesterday. If it were true, a real reporter would have found it. That same real reporter would have run with it. And the rest of the real press would be all over it this morning. And as I watch CNN, I see no reference to it. So it's crap.

Wow! That was a thourough victory. Smacks a little of the Bashar Miles Teg himself.

[Bailey]

Originally posted by 4chuckie
Which population? US citizens or World population?

If it's US then you're totally wrong, most polls I have saws is about 50-50% (or into thirds if the answer is goto war w/o UN approval, goto war w/ UN approval, not goto war)

As for the world I also don't think it's 85%. Maybe it's 85% of the Iraq population or 85% of the terrorists don't want their safe harbor blown up. You see alot of people out protesting and that's their right. But there are many more people sitting at home waiting for Saddam to be ousted.

The UK population, which is where the Mirror is published. The latest survey I saw (published on Sunday) said that the approval rating for war without a further UN resolution was 15%.

Cohen:

Newspapers have long since had to provide interpretation and analysis of events. If they don't, they will fail, as they cannot compete with the timeliness of TV/radio news.

And they have to sell copies, and 85% of the UK population agree with their campaign.

[Refman]

Originally posted by Bailey
Newspapers have long since had to provide interpretation and analysis of events. If they don't, they will fail, as they cannot compete with the timeliness of TV/radio news.

And they have to sell copies, and 85% of the UK population agree with their campaign.
Ah...but journalistic analysis and a "campaign" are two very different things. The latter obliterates a chance for anything meaningful coming of the former.

[jello77]

Originally posted by 4chuckie

If it's US then you're totally wrong, most polls I have saws is about 50-50% (or into thirds if the answer is goto war w/o UN approval, goto war w/ UN approval, not goto war)

As for the world I also don't think it's 85%. Maybe it's 85% of the Iraq population or 85% of the terrorists don't want their safe harbor blown up. You see alot of people out protesting and that's their right. But there are many more people sitting at home waiting for Saddam to be ousted.

im sorry, but you are a little off.

first of all, dont look at the 50-50 government polls. most of chicago, where i live, is totally anti-war. we had a poll at my high school and it was 80-20 in favor of NOT going to war. as for the rest of the world, if anything it is higher then 85%. in england they call tony blair 'bush's bitch'. i really dont know tht many people that are for the war. saddam hussein is a bull**** excuse. we (usa) support alot of countries that have dictators.

the other thing i would like to say is that if you are pro-war, then YOU can go to war. you can go ahead and fight...if they ever re-open the draft, i will be the prime age to get drafted. i think if you are for this war, be my guest. go ahead.

[treeman]

jello77

Hey dumbass, I am in the military and there is a significant (though dwindling as time moves on) chance that I could be sent over there. You know what? I would go without a peep because I - like 98% of the rest of the military - understand why we are going to war and believe that it is a good cause.

I also do not personally know anyone who is against the war (in either state, Texas or Colorado). Maybe it's just the company I keep, or maybe a significant number of people actually *do* support action? I dunno. I don't hang out with any brain-dead, pot-smoking high schoolers, though, so maybe that has something to do with it?

I do know this: as someone in the military who might actually go, and who has friends over there right now who will soon be engaged in combat, I can say that fu*king idiotic comments like yours are not at all welcome. They merely disgrace our military and make you look like a moron, that is all. Not welcome at all...

free speech is a wonderful thing, isn't it?

[Jeff]

Originally posted by treeman
jello77

Hey dumbass,

He didn't insult you personally so back off. You know better.

On the topic at hand, c'mon rimrocker. Don't post tabloid heresay. True or not, this sounds pretty farfetched.

Chance actually showed how flawed things like this can be just by showing the source. Hey, Chance, I'll give you a dollar if you do the same thing with the next conservative propoganda post. :D

[CometsCrazy]

Geez...It's nice to see that we have such mature and well rounded citizens in our US military. Hey treeman...freedom of speech goes both ways.

[SmeggySmeg]

Originally posted by rimrocker

GEORGE Bush pulled out of a speech to the European Parliament when MEPs wouldn't guarantee a standing ovation.



Maybe he should play some his back catalogue which are the fan favourites and not just the stuff off the new album

[jello77]

did i hurt your feelings treeman? come on. tell me how you REALLY feel.

[Chance]

Originally posted by CometsCrazy
freedom of speech goes both ways.

So do t!tty dancers. G-R-O-W-L!!

[CometsCrazy]

Nice, Chance. Very profound :)

[treeman]

I apologize for my tone, but not for the content. We (military) find it very offensive when someone who so obviously knows nothing about what is going on downtalks what we are doing. As I said, I have friends over there right now (and I still might go) who are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice in order to create a world where little punks who would spit on them don't have to live in a world where the Saddam Husseins and other terrorists could threaten them with WMD. Thanks for nothing.

[Cohen]

Originally posted by jello77
im sorry, but you are a little off.

first of all, dont look at the 50-50 government polls.

They're not all government polls, are they?

most of chicago, where i live, is totally anti-war. we had a poll at my high school and it was 80-20 in favor of NOT going to war. as for the rest of the world, if anything it is higher then 85%. in england they call tony blair 'bush's bitch'. i really dont know tht many people that are for the war.

Your high school is a barometer of the Nation's view? or of the threat to this Nation? :rolleyes:


saddam hussein is a bull**** excuse. we (usa) support alot of countries that have dictators.

Quite an argument there. It's so comprehensive, I don't know if it could evre be refuted.

the other thing i would like to say is that if you are pro-war, then YOU can go to war. you can go ahead and fight...if they ever re-open the draft, i will be the prime age to get drafted. i think if you are for this war, be my guest. go ahead.

Many of those Americans who are not anti-war already have fought wars for your freedoms. If you want to be fervently anti-war w/o fully assessing the threat to your Nation (based on the 'logic' you present here), that's your prerogative. But don't challange other Americans, child.

And FWIW, if you're still in high school, you're not 'prime age'. 20 is. Then 21, 22, 23, 24, 25. 'Eighteen and 19-year-olds would "probably not be drafted," the agency says.'

Draft Unlikely To Be Reinstated
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/31/politics/main534836.shtml

[MadMax]

Originally posted by jello77

most of chicago, where i live, is totally anti-war. we had a poll at my high school and it was 80-20 in favor of NOT going to war.

this tells me what? i mean, besides the fact that a bunch of 14-18 year olds are against the war?

i remember a poll was done at my old high school during the 2000 election...one of the kids i go to church with was telling me how Nader was going to win the election, because at school he won big time in their little "poll."

Nader didn't win.

[Chance]

Originally posted by CometsCrazy
Nice, Chance. Very profound :)

The silly T!tty dancer line or tha answer to I can't wait for the republicans on the board to explain this...?

I found them both profound;)

[SpaceCity]

Treeman,
Nothing that Jello said should have been that offensive to you. It's not just High School kids that are against going to war at this time.

Just about everyone agrees that Saddam needs to be dealt with. We all agree that he is a bad man. Not too many people disagree with this.

What many of us (and the majority of Europe) disagree with is how we go about dealing with him. Many of us are skeptical because we are not sure if our unelected President is making the right decision in alienating many of our Allies in his push for war. Face it, Bush has not done a good job of supplying factual evidence that war is necessary right now.

Many of us question why he has such a hard on for attacking Iraq when it is clear that there are other Nations that potentially pose more of a threat to us and our Allies than Iraq does. There appears to be a double-standard when dealing with Iraq. There are a great many rogue nations that have and do aid Al Queda and other terrorist groups, be it directly or indirectly. There are other Nations that posess weapons more devastating than those of Iraq.

And then there's the question of what can of worms will we open by attacking Iraq without the support of other Nations. I agree, it's a catch-22 situation. If we do nothing at this time he could potentially sell arms to those who would do damage to us. But on the other hand, if we attack then we might encourage them to attack us as a means of 'self defense'.

This is a delicate situation. Some of us do not feel comfortable with Bush's cowboy rhetoric. Some of us do feel comfortable thumbing our noses at country that are supposed to be our Allies.

That spit comment of yours was uncalled for because for one, this is not Viet Nam. And two, We are not at war yet. You and other soldiers are not being spat on by us. We all realize that the soldiers do not make the decisions. You are merely obeying the orders of your Commander in Chief.

[Chance]

Originally posted by SpaceCity
You and other soldiers are not being spat on by us. We all realize that the soldiers do not make the decisions. You are merely obeying the orders of your Commander in Chief.


Um...didn't a bunch of rotc cadets get spit on today or something?

[SpaceCity]

If so, I didn't hear about it yet.

And for the record, regardless of my stance on the potential war, I do not condone the spitting on of soldiers.

Shame on those who do.

[Baqui99]

I thought this was about Bush's "O face."

[B-Bob]

To Treeman's credit, who here has really decided to pursue a career where the end goal could be sacrificing your life for a country of people, most of whom you barely know?

I don't condone his emotional reaction, but it's got to be tough to hear. I'm not saying those of us opposing a pre-emptive war should shut our mouths. I'm just saying I can only barely begin to imagine what it's like to hear all the negativity when you've offered such an immense personal sacrifice. Really, just think about it.

Imagine hearing a bunch of people telling you that you and your friends may die in an effort that these people believe is worse than useless. It's gotta be intense.

[TheHorns]

Originally posted by Jeff
Hey, Chance, I'll give you a dollar if you do the same thing with the next conservative propoganda post. :D

You know us Republicans, all we have is money :rolleyes:... Chance, I will give you $2 to not;) :D

[RocketMan Tex]

No standing "O" for Bush?

Perhaps he should take a cue from Bill Clinton...If you want an "O", sit down in the Oval Office and call an intern!:D

This message was for all of my Clinton-hating friends on this BBS...hope you enjoyed it and don't say that I never gave you anything!!!...RMT

[rimrocker]

OK, Chance, you knocked me around pretty good and I should have checked the source, but I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet. An item appeared on the BBC site with a bit more specificity today, though I'm not pinning my hopes on Baronness Williams (thank god we don't do that royal crap here) as she may not be an unimpeachable source. I'm holding out for a few more days before total capitulation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2830585.stm

The White House asked if President Bush could address the European Parliament, Baroness Williams revealed on BBC One's This Week show on Thursday. But, she said, Euro-MPs were told there was a condition attached to him making the speech: a standing ovation should be guaranteed. The speech has never taken place.

[TheHorns]

Originally posted by SpaceCity
That spit comment of yours was uncalled for because for one, this is not Viet Nam. And two, We are not at war yet. You and other soldiers are not being spat on by us. We all realize that the soldiers do not make the decisions. You are merely obeying the orders of your Commander in Chief.

So I assume you find it appropriate the way Vietnam Vets were treated? What in the f**k are you saying? You think they were the ones who started that war, or was it an action by the Commander in Chief?

That is ignorant.

Today's Armed Forces is one of volunteers, compare that to the Armed Forces that fought in Vietnam, a large number of those who fought in Vietnam we drafted. Many of who were more against that war than were those who spat on them, threw things at them, treated them like sh*t and alienated them when they returned.

[Groogrux]

TheHorns obviously didn't read this post:

Originally posted by SpaceCity
And for the record, regardless of my stance on the potential war, I do not condone the spitting on of soldiers.

Shame on those who do.

[SpaceCity]

TheHorns,
Whoa, calm down now.

I already said that spitting on soldiers is a bad thing and gave a reason as to why it is bad.

All I meant was that VN was an entirely different situation. When spitting on soldiers was originally mentioned in this thread, VN was what came to my mind. I was unaware that it happened recently. (Even though I still haven't read or heard about it happening.) I thought he made the original comparison to VN, which is why I said that this is not VN. My bad if that is not what he was referring to.

That's what the **** I was saying.

[Chance]

Originally posted by Jeff
Hey, Chance, I'll give you a dollar if you do the same thing with the next conservative propoganda post. :D

Dude I GLADLY will! No dollar necessary. I would be humiliated if a fellow conservative posted rubbish like that. And if it has happened and I glossed over it as fact then I am ashamed.

Credibe news sources only people. That goes for us as well as the socialists lefties. :D:D:D:D

[SmeggySmeg]

my radio station is reporting France is going to vote No on the resolution and Pakistan is going to abstain

[Chance]

Originally posted by rimrocker


The White House asked if President Bush could address the European Parliament, Baroness Williams revealed on BBC One's This Week show on Thursday. But, she said, Euro-MPs were told there was a condition attached to him making the speech: a standing ovation should be guaranteed. The speech has never taken place.

Much better...not quite there yet...but better;)

See people...friendly, healthy banter. I need to re-read this thread when I am typing in a huff!

[DaDakota]

I find it very hard to get an "O" when standing. Who can blame Bush for not wanting to stand and get an "O".

;)

DD

[jello77]

treeman,

i dont know if you got my point. i have nothing against any of the soldiers going into iraq. but i do have something against our government. is bush and cheney and all the people sending young men and women into war...are they going to go to war? bush is gonna stay home. he's not gonna die, by any means. i apologize if i offended you because you are in the army, but i didnt mean to. did i say anything about spitting on soldiers? i really dont agree with what bush is doing right now, i belive it's wrong, and i belive most of the world is against it. the people going to war...any of them might die because of this, and i dont belive it is a just cause. i also wanted to say that us high schoolers are this country and this world's future.

ugh. im staying out of political discussions. no more. i'll go back to reading the 'trade steve' posts now.
:cool:

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Chance
Dude I GLADLY will! No dollar necessary. I would be humiliated if a fellow conservative posted rubbish like that. And if it has happened and I glossed over it as fact then I am ashamed.

Credibe news sources only people. That goes for us as well as the socialists lefties. :D:D:D:D

Actually, it has happened quite a bit on both sides of the virtual aisle. :)

[CometsCrazy]

Jello77, don't let that guy scare you away from expressing your views on important issues, like war, that will affect everyone from high schoolers, elderly, middle aged adults and children. War has consequences for all age groups including yourself. Keep speaking your mind, because if someone doesn't like what your saying they WILL find a way to discredit you. This time he picked your age, if you were out of high school that guy would have tried to discredit you because you weren't in the military...it's a no win situation. You saw how mature he was in his reply to you. Don't sweat it and keep saying what you feel.

[TheHorns]

Originally posted by SpaceCity
I already said that spitting on soldiers is a bad thing and gave a reason as to why it is bad.

I saw that.

Originally posted by SpaceCity
All I meant was that VN was an entirely different situation.

Which still, in my eyes, does not make actions of spitting on or anything along those lines tolerable.

Originally posted by SpaceCity
...this is not Viet Nam....We all realize that the soldiers do not make the decisions. You are merely obeying the orders of your Commander in Chief.

That makes absolutely no sense what so ever!

a) You stating "this is not Viet Nam" implies that treatment of Soldiers back then was justified or is acceptable to you.
b) Our Armed Forces do not go to war without orders of a Commander in Chief how was Vietnam different from this potential or any war?

Sure, it was a different war, but regardless, the fight is the same. The vets of that and any war are fighting on behalf of our Country. They do not make the policy, they protect the Country and carry out the orders of the President. So please help me to understand what is meant by "this is not Viet Nam." Vietnam, Gulf War, Korean War and so on, it does not have a bearing on the situation, so why the comment? I may not understand your point here.

Originally posted by SpaceCity
That's what the **** I was saying.

Please again try to tell me what you are saying b/c unless this is a misunderstanding, I find that statement to be a little odd.

[Bailey]

Originally posted by rimrocker
OK, Chance, you knocked me around pretty good and I should have checked the source, but I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet. An item appeared on the BBC site with a bit more specificity today, though I'm not pinning my hopes on Baronness Williams (thank god we don't do that royal crap here) as she may not be an unimpeachable source. I'm holding out for a few more days before total capitulation.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2830585.stm


That "royal crap" is a life peerage. Which means an honour bestowed on an individual by the nation. It can be given to anyone. Shirley Williams is left-leaning, but a well-respected political figure in this country.

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0852338.html

[Cohen]

Originally posted by Bailey
That "royal crap" is a life peerage. ...

Bailey,

Happen to have The House of Commons on right now while I work. (BTW, why does one lose their wit with a trip across the Atlantic? Our politicians are dry as chalk.)

I always have been entertained by the PMs, and Jack Straw is showing a prodigious capacity at the moment. I'm glad that the UK is such a close ally of the US...even with all the 'royal crap' ;)

[Bailey]

The House of Commons is very entertaining live too. You get a real impression of what a rabble they are. :D

As far as the "royal crap", I'm actually a republican (note the small R), but ironically life peerages are about the only part of that whole system that retain credibility. Many ex-politicians, PMs and public figures receive that honour, and can continue to have a formal forum for discussing current issues in the House of Lords (which is a lot more sedate to watch!)

[SpaceCity]

Originally posted by TheHorns
a) You stating "this is not Viet Nam" implies that treatment of Soldiers back then was justified or is acceptable to you.

That's not what I meant. I'm not sure how you assumed that when I already stated that I do not condone spitting on soldiers. I already explained that I made the assumption that Treeman was referring to VN when he mentioned spitting on soldiers. Like I said I was unaware that this was happening now. Again, my bad for making the wrong assumption. Not sure how to convince you otherwise.

b) Our Armed Forces do not go to war without orders of a Commander in Chief how was Vietnam different from this potential or any war?

I never said it was different. I clearly stated that soldiers do not make the decisions to start conflicts/wars. Again, you assumed wrong in this case.

Sure, it was a different war, but regardless, the fight is the same. The vets of that and any war are fighting on behalf of our Country. They do not make the policy, they protect the Country and carry out the orders of the President. So please help me to understand what is meant by "this is not Viet Nam." Vietnam, Gulf War, Korean War and so on, it does not have a bearing on the situation, so why the comment? I may not understand your point here.

Same missunderstanding as above.

Look, this all started with my wrong assumption that Treeman was referring to VN when he mentioned being spit on. I did not (and still haven't) heard or seen reports about current soldiers being spit on. I don't know how many times I can say that this action is wrong. I even gave my reason as to why this is wrong.

I have no idea why you are having such a hard time understanding this. You took my statement and made the wrong assumption (just as I apparently did) and you ran with it.

[rimrocker]

On the royal thing, I don't care what a Baroness is, it's still a title representative of an aristocracy. We may have the same thing here, but at least we hide it well.

On the soldier thing, not all military folks think like Treeman...

March 10, 2003

The Honorable George W. Bush
President of the United States of America
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500


Dear Mr. President:

We, the undersigned veterans who have served our country in World War II, Korea, Vietnam, the 1991 Gulf War and other military conflicts, respectfully request an opportunity to meet with you about the threat of war between the United States and Iraq.

Mr. President, we are patriotic citizens and veterans who respect the office of the President and the ethics and values binding us together as Americans.

As such, we feel duty-bound to share with you our serious concerns regarding issues of national security, the appropriate use of our military strength, and the health and welfare of our active duty soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines. Those of us who are veterans of the 1991 Gulf War can offer particular insight into the ongoing troubles in the Middle East, and the likely consequences of another war in that volatile region.

A dozen years ago, we helped liberate Kuwait from Iraqi occupation, and in the course of combat operations came face to face with brutality and the consequences of modern warfare. We learned how unpredictable the nature of war can be. And we learned that war-related losses are not simply experienced on the battlefield.

Following the 1991 Gulf War, we collectively failed to prevent Saddam Hussein’s violent repression of a popular uprising and the unprecedented refugee flight that ensued. As a result, tens of thousands of innocent civilians died. In addition to those deaths, the war and immediate post-war conditions resulted in the excess deaths of 46,900 children under the age of five, according to the New England Journal of Medicine (September 24, 1992).

Over the long term, the 1991 Gulf War has had a lasting, detrimental impact on the health of countless people in the region, and on the health of American men and women who served there. Twelve years after the conflict, over 164,000 American Gulf War veterans are now considered disabled by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs. That number increases daily.

The possibility of large-scale war between the U.S. and Iraq looms before us once again. For this urgent reason we would like to meet with you to discuss steps the United States and its allies can take to protect U.S. soldiers, allied forces, and Iraqi civilians from known and suspected hazards that would result from military operations.

We understand the risks that come with war and that there are times when such risks are necessary. However, we strongly question the need for a war at this time. Despite Secretary of State Colin Powell’s report to the Security Council and the testimony of others in the administration, we are not convinced that coercive containment has failed, or that war has become necessary.

Our own intelligence agencies have consistently noted both the absence of an imminent threat from Iraq and reliable evidence of cooperation between Iraq and Al Qaeda. Again, we question whether this is the right time and the right war.

Further, we believe the risks involved in going to war, under the unclear and shifting circumstances that confront us today, are far greater than those faced in 1991. Instead of a desert war to liberate Kuwait, combat would likely involve protracted siege warfare, chaotic street-to-street fighting in Baghdad, and Iraqi civil conflict. If that occurs, we fear our own nation and Iraq would both suffer casualties not witnessed since Vietnam. We fear the resulting carnage and humanitarian consequences would further devastate Iraqi society and inflame an already volatile Middle East, and increase terrorism against U.S. citizens.

Our concerns about the potential human and material costs of a military conflict in Iraq are well substantiated. In the event of a war, the UN warns that 1.26 million children under the age of 5 in Iraq will be at risk of death. Within the initial weeks of conflict, the World Health Organization estimates 500,000 Iraqis would need immediate medical attention. Ten million Iraqis would need immediate humanitarian assistance and over 2 million Iraqis would be made homeless.

The scale of the crisis would be so large that the international community would be unable to prevent widespread suffering. For these reasons and more, it remains in our nation’s best interest to avoid another war. The risk of excessive civilian casualties like those predicted by the UN pose a grave risk to our national security, making the U.S. more of a target of retaliatory attacks by terrorists.

Mr. President, as our Commander-in-Chief, we recognize the immense responsibility you have to protect our homeland and keep our nation secure. As veterans who honorably served our nation in its wars, we believe that our perspectives, knowledge and expertise can aid you at this crucial time, as you continue to deliberate on whether or not to commit our nation to war.

We therefore request a meeting at your earliest possible convenience. We look forward to any opportunity to come together with you to discuss the matters we have raised.

Sincerely,

Vice Admiral Ralph Weymouth, USN, Retired
Vice Admiral Jack Shanahan, USN, Retired

Brigadier General Evelyn P. Foote, USA, Retired

Colonel David H. Hackworth, USA, Retired
Colonel Larry Williams, USMC, Retired
Colonel James E Unterseher, USA, Retired
Colonel James B. Burkholder, USA, Retired
Colonel Roger F. Strand, USAF, Retired
Colonel Virginia A. Metcalf, USA, Retired
Colonel Mary H. Yeakel, USA, Retired
Colonel Henrik O. Lunde, USA, Retired
Colonel Bruce S. Jarstfer, USA, Retired
Colonel Thomas Patrick Chisholm, USA, Retired
Colonel James Steven Chandler, USA
Colonel James J. Kent, USA, Retired
Colonel Grace E. Squires, USA, Retired
Colonel Carol Anne O’Donnell, USA, Retired

Captain Kris Kristofferson, USA, Retired
Captain Thomas C. Tindall Jr., USNR, Retired
Captain Herbert A. Blough, USN, Retired
Captain M. David Preston, USCG

Lieutenant Colonel Elizabeth K. McGillicuddy, USMC, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel Ron T. Coley, USMC, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel Walter M. Langford, USAF, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel Ben T. Granade, Jr., USAF, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel Frank L. Houde, USAF, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel Richard M. Renfro, USA, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel Gretchen T. Vanek, USA, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel Richard L. Schmitt, USAF, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel Vernon E. Whitney, USA, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel Graydon Causey, USAF, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel William R. Smith, USAF, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel David C. Dellinger, USCG, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel Anne N. Philiben, USA, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel James A. Adams, Jr., USAF, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel Rupert Eldridge Pate, USA, Retired
Lieutenant Colonel William J. Jacobs, USA, Retired

Commander Robert A. Wood, USNR, Retired
Commander John J. Kaso, USN, Retired
Commander Eugene M. Maresca, USNR, Retired
Commander William H. Busse, USNR, Retired
Commander David Bailey, USCG, Retired
Commander Philip Butler, Ph.D., USN, Retired
Commander Michael A. Kennedy, USN, Retired
Commander Theodore I. Bahn, USN, Retired
Commander Theodore Curtin, USN, Retired

Lieutenant Commander Daniel Fecko, USNR, Retired
Lieutenant Commander Jim W. Turnage, M.D., M.P.H., USN
Lieutenant Commander John Paul Brennan, USMC, Retired
Lieutenant Commander Thomas A. Egleston, USN
Lieutenant Commander Robert Swan Lawrence, USCG
Lieutenant Commander Dennis C. Hayzlett, USN
Lieutenant Commander Howard L. McFann, USN
Lieutenant Commander Lawrence George Thorne, USN
Lieutenant Commander David H. Gundy, USN

Major Kenneth E. Mayers, Ph.D., USMCR, Retired
Major Thomas J. Treadway, USA, Retired
Major William McEwan Cross, USA
Major Donald McNellis, USAF
Major Jon Bjornson, MD, USA, Retired
Major James W. Strader, USAF
Major Dean Wilson, USA, Retired
Major Willie Fuller, Jr., USAF, Retired
Major Ford A. Anderson, USAF, Retired
Chaplain Major Kenneth J. Nettles, Ph.D., USAF, Retired
Major Christopher M. Robinson, USA, Retired
Major Heidrun Mlodzik, USAF, Retired
Major William D. Cooke, USA
Major Mark W. Gieringer, USAF, Retired
Major Jon Bjornson, MD, USA
Major James E. Kinzer, USAF, Retired
Major Johan M. S. Muller, USAF, Retired

Captain William Clifford Ellerman, USA
Captain Paul A. Hellweg, USA
Captain Jerry Dowling, USA
Captain David P. Leaf, USA
Captain James C. Ryan, USA
Captain Charles P. Dillon, USA
Captain James Clayton Lockwood, USA, Retired
Captain Daryl Hobbs, USA
Captain Raymond E. Kemble, USA
Captain Herbert S Hathcock, USA, Retired
Captain Dr. Delphia M. Clarke, USA
Captain John R Phelan, USA
Captain Bert A. Bender, USA
Captain Simeon K. Heninger, Jr., USA
Captain Philip Zipser, USA, Retired
Captain Dorothy Pakula Whittaker, USA
Captain Thomas N. Stern, USA
Captain Dan W. Holbrook, USA
Captain David Berlin Eye, USA
Captain Robert Joel Master, USA
Captain Brenda Lasarzig, USA
Captain James J. Jablonski, USA
Captain Robert W. Ferrell, USA, Retired
Captain Bob Gaiek, USA
Captain John L. Long, USAF
Captain John J. Blase, USAF
Captain John Lovejoy, USAF
Captain Troy Carlyle, USAF
Captain Lawrence Hugh Boyd, USAF
Captain Theodore T Odell, USAF
Captain Gregg A. Matous, USAF
Captain Larry T Harnish, USAF
Captain Karl Schmitt, USAF
Captain Hugh F Cline, USAF, Retired
Captain Kathryn J. Hammond, USAF
Captain Neal F Bowyer, USAF
Captain Lucia Jameson, USAF
Captain Michael L. Glenn, USAF
Captain Landon Kimbrough, USAF, Retired
Captain David Louis Harris, USAF
Captain Karl W. Frederick, USAF
Captain Vincent Phelps Ward, USAF
Captain Carlo S. Ascari, USAF
Captain Robert Gregg Chilton, USAF
Captain George Georgieff, DDS, USAF
Captain Joe Stern, USAF
Captain Steven Dellaporta, USMC, Retired
Captain Wesley Scott Hannon, USMC
Captain Fred Johnson, USMC, Retired
Captain Thomas T. Carpenter, USMC

[rimrocker]

and more signatures...



Lieutenant Thomas M. Liston USN

Lieutenant John Dobson West USN

Lieutenant Jerome P. Wallingford USN

Lieutenant David Felix USN

Lieutenant Michael Jay Herbert USN

Lieutenant John Orrin Purkey USN

Lieutenant Ricki J. Estes USN

Lieutenant Walter E. Ziegenhals USN

Lieutenant Frank Lloyd Kramer, Jr. USN

Lieutenant Harvey Bennett USN

Lieutenant William R. Jones USN

Lieutenant Gilbert Marek Zemansky USN

Lieutenant Jordan R. Carpenter USN

Lieutenant Gerald A Burnett USN

Lieutenant John Edward Houx USN

Lieutenant Michael Bruce Elder USN

Lieutenant Kenneth L. Lang USN

Lieutenant Francis C. Zanger (Chaplain Corps) USN

Lieutenant Michelle Birdseye, M.D. USN

Lieutenant Robert James Bournique USN

Lieutenant Glen N. Foss USN

Lieutenant Benjamin Senauer USN

Lieutenant Chris Gleason USMC

Lieutenant Douglas Timothy McGetchin USMC

Lieutenant John Stoddard Glascock Senior USCG

Lieutenant Albert C. Germann USAF

Lieutenant Timothy L. Hanley USAF

Lieutenant John T. Urban USAF

Lieutenant William Henry Reynolds USAF

Lieutenant J.E.O'Kelly McCluskey USAF

Lieutenant Alex Wormser USAF

Lieutenant William Spencer Hall USAF

Lieutenant Roderick D Raabe USAF

Lieutenant Roger Fitch USAF

Lieutenant Dr. Charles DeFreitas USAF

Lieutenant Barry Wolfer USAF

Lieutenant Robert Lowell Hickerson USAF

Lieutenant Danny Paul Dennis USAF

Lieutenant John Milton Wallace USA

Lieutenant Steven Richard Cartwright USA

Lieutenant Robert F. Hornbeck USA

Lieutenant Richard Kenny Sink USA

Lieutenant Donald Pinkel USA

Lieutenant James F Balderson USA

Lieutenant Steven Eli Schanes USA

Lieutenant Hugh Scanlen USA

Lieutenant Barry Dixon Copp USA

Lieutenant Ellie Kennedy USA

Lieutenant Todd Stuart Kneeland USA

Lieutenant Charles DePuy USA

Lieutenant Patrick Maurice Flannery USA

Lieutenant Dennis Spector USA

Lieutenant Alta J. Minthorn Stephens USA

Lieutenant Henry W. Plohr USA

Lieutenant Michael J. Sebetich USA

Lieutenant John DuBois USA

Lieutenant Harold Glickman USA

Lieutenant James L. Sheehan USA

Lieutenant David L. Harten USA

Lieutenant Randall Joel Hain USA

Lieutenant Gary Eschman USA

Lieutenant Roger Simon USA

Lieutenant Robert Lloyd Stebbins USA

Lieutenant Reysha Silverhair, formerly Hoyt Sherman Griffith USA

Lieutenant Douglas Parker Shaw USA

Lieutenant William M. Whitby USA

Lieutenant Robert W. Buttel USA

Lieutenant Thomas W. Shepard, Jr. USA

Lieutenant William J. Simmons, Sr. USA

Lieutenant Robert M. Land, USA

Lieutenant Edmund William Hoelker, USAF

Lieutenant Junior Grade Arthur Lewis Solomon, USCG

Lieutenant Junior Grade Joe Martin Cantrell, USN

Lieutenant Junior Grade Richard Ralph Groseclose, USN

Lieutenant Junior Grade Robert A. Collins, USCG

Lieutenant Junior Grade Bruce S. Ertle, USN

Lieutenant Junior Grade Charles H Nadler, USN

Lieutenant Junior Grade Richard Fredrick Hickey, USN

Lieutenant Junior Grade Gregory H. Carter, USN

Lieutenant Junior Grade Jeff Markell, USCG

Lieutenant Junior Grade John Ise Jr, USN

Lieutenant Junior Grade DeWitt Linn Sage, USN

Lieutenant Junior Grade Craig A. Bicknell, USN

Lieutenant Junior Grade Charlton M. Lewis, USN



Command Sergeant Major Robert Grover Smith, Jr., USA, Retired



Aerographer's mate third class Alice B. Gilmore, USN

Airman Albert W. Wilson, USAF

Airman Aram Attarian II, USAF

Airman Cheryl Davis, USA

Airman David Alan Dix, USAF

Airman French Tickner, USN

Airman Irvan F. Adams, USAF

Airman James F. McGowen, USN

Airman James J. Hogan, USAF

Airman John Paul Coakley, USAF

Airman John Stephen Pielaszczyk, USAF

Airman Joseph S. Sims, USAF

Airman Joseph Wistar Huey III, USAF

Airman Lewis Kirk, USAF

Airman Mark Torrey, USAF

Airman Mazie H. Todd (Rogers), USAF

Airman Merl Moncer, USAF

Airman Michael P.Corridon, USAF

Airman Michael R. Philiben, USAF

Airman Pedro Rivera, USAF

Airman Philip G. Brown, USAF

Airman Robert J. Hoffmeister, USAF

Airman Robert T.Hogan, USAF

Airman Roger Peirce, USAF

Airman Ronald Bostick, USAF

Airman Steven T Raynis, USAF

Airman Timothy Charles Frazer, USAF

Airman William H. Davis, USAF

Airman William J Leary, USAF

[rimrocker]

... and more...

Aviation Ordnanceman 3/C John Howard Beam, USN

Chief Master Sergeant USAF Donald H. Kroeber, USAF, Retired

Chief Petty Officer Art Baskel, USN

Chief Petty Officer Art Rogers, USN

Chief Petty Officer Bart Coyle, USAF

Chief Petty Officer Joanna M. Clark, USN

Chief Petty Officer Kenneth R. Davis, USN, Retired

Chief Petty Officer Richard L. Weiche, USN, Retired

Chief Petty Officer William Bennett, USN

Chief Warrant Officer Frank V. Santos, USA, Retired

Chief Warrant Officer Robert O'Donnell, USN, Retired

Chief Warrant Officer Scott A. Wendt, USA, Retired

Corporal Abel Perez Ochoa, USA

Corporal Alfred Herrada, USA

Corporal Arthur T. Cannon, USA

Corporal Bernard H. Soffer, USA, Retired

Corporal Brian X Fitzgibbon, USMC

Corporal Charles Weyand Heitsch, USA

Corporal Cora Tula Watters, USMC

Corporal Daniel E. Meurin, USA

Corporal Daniel Miller, USAF

Corporal Daniel V. Herrera, USMC

Corporal David Shupp, USA

Corporal Don F. Hull, USA

Corporal Ernest Goitein, USA

Corporal Fred Pipkin, USA

Corporal George J. Bryjak, USMC

Corporal George S. Sutherland, USA, Retired

Corporal George Valle Jr., USA

Corporal Gregory Gerald Boyer, USMC

Corporal Harold G. Schneider, USA

Corporal Heather Radcliffe, USMC

Corporal Herman Milton Heyn, USA

Corporal Jack Earl Holman, USA

Corporal Jerry D. Riley, USA

Corporal John A Ragsdale, USA

Corporal John Banagan, USA

Corporal John F. Beirne, USA, Retired

Corporal John L. Schweitzer, USA

Corporal John Maxwell Gault, USA

Corporal John P. Thomson, USA, Retired

Corporal Joseph R. Attamante, USMC

Corporal Lloyd D.Beery, Junior, USA

Corporal Manus J Campbell, USMC

Corporal Marvin Kantor, USMC

Corporal Maurice Bender, Ph.D., USA

Corporal Michael Czarnecki, USA

Corporal Michael E. Stewart, USMC

Corporal Michael H. Riordan, USMC

Corporal Noel H. Bransford, USMC

Corporal Norman F. Williams Jr., USMC

Corporal Paul G. Zolbrod, USA

Corporal Philip S. Miller, USA

Corporal Ralph Wessel, USAF

Corporal Randy Belden, USMC

Corporal Richard Lyon Castner, USA

Corporal robert e richards, USMC, Retired

Corporal Robert F. Bisson, USA

Corporal Robert Kinsey, USMC

Corporal Robert Richard Barracca, USA

Corporal Stephen George Fournier, USMC, Retired

Corporal Stewart Nusbaumer, USMC, Retired

Corporal Temur Perkins, USMC

Corporal Theodore Radamaker, USA

Corporal Thomas C. Gale, USA

Corporal Thomas E. Simmons Jr., USMC

Corporal Thomas L.Vassilaros, USA

Corporal Vinnie Van Wyen, USMC

Corporal William Paul Williamson, Jr., USMC

Corporal William R. Stanton, USMC

Corporal William Roland Bailey, USA

Corporal Yoshiro Sanbonmatsu, USA

Corporal Ziskind R. Lieb, USA

E-5 Medical Specialist James Clinton Wright, USA

Ensign Kenneth Martin Stevenson, USN

Ensign Richard A. Laurick, USN

Ensign roxy hills, USA

Ensign Thomas A. Toomey, USN, Retired

Ensign William A. Swain III, USN, Retired

First Lieutenant Paul W Morgan, USA

First Lieutenant Richard E. Albert , USA

First Sergeant Dennis W. Smith, USA, Retired

First Sergeant Mary Lou Mayes, USAF

Gunners Mate 3rd Class James Starowicz, USN

Gunnery Sergeant Robert W. Carman, USMC

Gunnery Sergeant Robert W. White, USAF

Hospital Corpsman Norman T. Davis, USN, Retired

Hospital Corpsman Donald A. Blickens, USN

Hospital Corpsman Thomas Richard Imboden, USN

Hospitalman Raymond E. Chamberlain III, USN

Lance Corporal Bob M. Tanner, Jr., USMC

Lance Corporal Donald Dean Hedgepeth, USMC

Lance Corporal Gary Akito Maehara, USMC

Lance Corporal Jerome Garger, USMC

Lance Corporal Roy Edward Stanford, USMC

Lance Corporal Thomas Melchior, USA

Lance Corporal Tom Blanchard, USMC

Master Chief Petty Officer E. Victor Mereski, USN, Retired

Master Chief Petty Officer Larry Bucher, USN, Retired

Master Sergeant Adam DeLuna, USA, Retired

Master Sergeant Anthony M. D'Amato, USA, Retired

Master Sergeant Anthony M. D'Amato, USA, Retired

Master Sergeant Charlie Day, USAF, Retired

Master Sergeant Curtis R. Campbell, USAF, Retired

Master Sergeant James T. Dunn, USA, Retired

Master Sergeant Larry B. Daniels, USAF, Retired

Master Sergeant Linda Wilkins-Daniels, USAF, Retired

Master Sergeant Louis W. Bender, USA

Master Sergeant Mark D. Brooks, USAF, Retired

Master Sergeant Michael Cosenza, USAF, Retired

Master Sergeant Scott W. Kirby, USAF, Retired

Master Sergeant Wilmar F. Bernthal, USA, Retired

Operations Specialist James Steven Clement, USN

Personnelman Richard Almy Wortman Ph. D., USN

Petty Officer 2nd Class Alberto Sifuentes, USN

Petty Officer Al Heisler, USN

Petty Officer Albert L. Rankin, USN

Petty Officer Alton J. Travland, USN

Petty Officer Benjamin Isaac Taylor, USN

Petty Officer Bill Lewis, USN

Petty Officer Charles F. Nawrocki, USN

Petty Officer Charles J. Shoens, USN

Petty Officer Charles Lewis Yates, USN

Petty Officer Craig Simpson, USN

Petty Officer Dan Onerheim, USN

Petty Officer Daniel Jacobson, USN

Petty Officer Dave Edwards, USN

Petty Officer David C. Smith, USN

Petty Officer David Ralph Travis, USN

Petty Officer David W. Martin, USN

Petty Officer Donald Ball, USN, Retired

Petty Officer Donald Graves, USN

Petty Officer Dr. Roland von Huene, USN

Petty Officer Duane Douglas Crimmins, USN

Petty Officer Duane Douglas Crimmins, USN

Petty Officer First Class Alexis T Bell, USN

Petty Officer First Class Christian Francis Curry, USN

Petty Officer First Class Dennis L. Elleflot, USN, Retired

Petty Officer First Class Louise Leonard, USN

Petty Officer First Class Norman R. Brown, USN

Petty Officer First Class Richard William Zeiner, USN

Petty Officer First Class Robert C. Haines, USN

Petty Officer First Class Robert Lawrence Mead, USCG, Retired

Petty Officer First Class Ron Cleeve, USN

Petty Officer First Class Terry Wayne Wilson, USN

Petty Officer Floyd Hallberg, USN

Petty Officer Francis E. Hanisch, USN

Petty Officer Francis J. Powers, USN

Petty Officer Franklin James Cole Gwartney III, USN

Petty Officer Gene Whitney, USN

Petty Officer George E. Davis, USN

Petty Officer James Clemons Parkinson, USN, Retired

Petty Officer James E. Gregg, USN

Petty Officer James M. Lewis, USN, Retired

Petty Officer James M. McIntyre, USN

Petty Officer James Rex Baird, USN

Petty Officer James V. Long, USN

Petty Officer Janine E. Sotomayor, USN

Petty Officer Jay Earl Anderson, Jr., USMC

Petty Officer Jean L Stimmell, USN

Petty Officer Jerzy M. Brozyna, USN

Petty Officer John Dainotto, USN

Petty Officer John L. Ebel, USN

Petty Officer Jon Norstog, USCG

Petty Officer Jose L. Romero, USN

Petty Officer Joseph A. Bedell, USN

Petty Officer Kenneth B. Bever Jr., USN

Petty Officer Kevin J. Lenaghan, USN

Petty Officer Larry L. Williams, USN

Petty Officer LEO F. SCHWEITZER JR, USN

Petty Officer Leo R. Sandy, Ed.D., NCSP, USN

Petty Officer Louis Schwartz, USN, Retired

Petty Officer Louis Martin Sinniger, USN

Petty Officer Louis Schwartz, USN, Retired

Petty Officer Lynn Burriss Webler, USN

Petty Officer Max Elliot, USN

Petty Officer Michael Craig, USN

Petty Officer Michael M. Chevalier, USN

Petty Officer Pat Chefalo, USN

Petty Officer Patrick Arthur Ouellette, USN

Petty Officer Philip Perry, USN

Petty Officer Richard J Thomas, USN

Petty Officer Richard J. Shorthouse, USN

Petty Officer Richard Ora Moore, USN, Retired

Petty Officer Robert Rostedt, USN

Petty Officer Robert Topmiller, USN

Petty Officer Robert Vernon Hill, USN

Petty Officer Roberta Rose Bailey, USN

Petty Officer Roger Dale Phillips II, USN

Petty Officer Ronald Edward Dyer, USN

Petty Officer Ronald Mills Gerughty, USN

Petty Officer Ronald Salvo, USN

Petty Officer Russell J. Buckardt, USN

Petty Officer Samuel Devereaux Hathaway, USN, Retired

Petty Officer Second Class Bruce S Cotton, USN

Petty Officer Second Class Darrell G. Miller, USN

Petty Officer Second Class Gary K. Grice, Jr., USN

Petty Officer Second Class George Chandler, USN

Petty Officer Second Class George Edward Hammerbeck, USN

Petty Officer Second Class Joseph Thomas Miller, USN

Petty Officer Sidney M. Peck , USN, Retired

Petty Officer Stephen M. Osborn, USN

Petty Officer Stuart Naismith, USN

Petty Officer Third Class Dale Wayne Allen, USN

Petty Officer Third Class Robert Keilbach, USN

Petty Officer Thomas Michael Kumpf, USN

Petty Officer Tod Chester TIbbetts, USN

Petty Officer Todd Philip Feiler, USN, Retired

Petty Officer Violet Dawn Colley, USN

Petty Officer William O. Jenkins, USCG

Petty Officer Wolfgang H. Rosenberg, USN

Pharmacists Mate 1st class Paul Charles Obler, USN

Private Christopher H. Barben, USN

Private David M. Smith, USA

Private Deborah L Schneider, USA

Private First Class Alfred G Hale, USA

Private First Class Allan H. Laite, USA

Private First Class Armand DeLaurell, USA

Private First Class Bill A Whitney, USA

Private First Class Brian W Jones, USA

Private First Class Charles Scarlott, USA

Private First Class Cheryl Marland, USA

Private First Class Chester C. Kraszewski, USA

Private First Class Constance Brockmeyer Heiman, USCG

Private First Class Dale E. Mix, USA

Private First Class David A. Lurie, USA

Private First Class David Fugere, USA

Private First Class David Robert Klein, USA

Private First Class David W. Otto, USA

Private First Class Dennis John Lynds, USA, Retired

Private First Class Dennis Lee Barnum, USA, Retired

Private First Class Donald David Bachman, USA

Private First Class Douglas Allen Thompson, USA

Private First Class Edwaqrd Beechert, USA

Private First Class Edward C Oehlers, USA

Private First Class Eugene M. Powell, USA

Private First Class Eugene Wilhelmi, USA

Private First Class Gary Lee Scriver, USA, Retired

Private First Class Gene Glazer, USA

Private First Class Gene Glazer, USA, Retired

Private First Class Gerald J Kresge, USA

Private First Class Gilbert Tibbetts Ireland, USA

Private First Class Herman Duane Johnson, USA

Private First Class James M. Jeffrey, USA

Private First Class James McDonald , USMC

Private First Class James W. Hunt, USMC

Private First Class Jeffrey P. Rowlett, USA

Private First Class John C. Schmertz, USA, Retired

Private First Class John Clinton Fowler, USA

Private First Class John Dale Warner, USA

Private First Class John Hockman, USA

Private First Class John Joseph Martin, USA

Private First Class Kathleen Quelland, USA

Private First Class Kenneth David Sharp, USA

Private First Class Kord E. Roosen-Runge, USA

Private First Class Laverne (Verne) C. Huser, USA

Private First Class Michael B. Gehl, USA

Private First Class Michael LaRue, USA

Private First Class Montague S. Berman, USA, Retired

Private First Class Monte G. McKenzie, USA

Private First Class Paul F Collins, USA

Private First Class Peter West Youell, USA

Private First Class Philip J. Felix, USA

Private First Class Philip S Philiben, USA

Private First Class Ray L Huffman, USA

Private First Class Raymond A. Coulombe, USA

Private First Class Richard D. Nethercut, USA

Private First Class Richard E.Becker, USA

Private First Class Richard L. Simpson, USA

Private First Class Rick Martin Duiker, USA

Private First Class Robert B. Raisor, USA

Private First Class Robert R. Gronko, USMC

Private First Class Robert S. Tate, USA

Private First Class Rodger Carroll, USA

Private First Class Rodman Earl Miller, USA, Retired

Private First Class Roger R. Armstrong, USA

Private First Class Ronald W. Ziwisky, USA

Private First Class Ruth Brown O'Neil, USA

Private First Class Stephen McCourt, USA

Private First Class Terence J. Murphy, USA

Private First Class Thomas Orr, USA

Private First Class Thomas R. Eckenrode, USA

Private First Class Vernon Joseph White, USA

Private First Class William A. Bailey, USA

Private First Class William Everett Hammond, USA

Private First Class William Jeffery Martin, USA, Retired

Private James Lewis LaGarde, USMC

Private Jerry M. Withers, USA

Private Lloyd Johnson, USA

Private Louis A. Valla, USA

Private Mari Erin Roth, USA

Private Peter J. Haughwout, USA

Private Robert S. Houston, USA

Private Roy W. Pneuman, USMC

Private Steven E. Saelzler, USA

Seaman 1st Class (radioman) Louis Wilker, USN

Seaman 1st Class Richard A. Williams, USN

Seaman Dennis Ledden, USN

Seaman Edmund Keeley, USN

Seaman Edward R Daley, USCG

Seaman First Class Robert C. Holloway, USN

Seaman George Veronis, USN

Seaman Gerald P. Lenaghan, USN

Seaman gordon duggan, USN

Seaman Harold Howard Horn, USN

Seaman Hector Sosa, USN

Seaman Henry Douglas Johnson, USA

Seaman James F. Dargon, USN

Seaman Jim S. Cassell, USN, Retired

Seaman Nathaniel Paul Davis, USN

Seaman Richard I. Trenholm, USN

Seaman Richard Sidney Salmon, USN

Seaman Robert Edward Miller II, USN

Seaman Todd Boyle, USN

Seaman Vaughn N. Pol, USN

Seaman Warren L. Lewellyn, USN

Seaman William L. Crozier, USN

Seaman William Roberts Voorhies, USN

[rimrocker]

and still more... notice how many of the lower ranks are still active?

Senior Airman Charles W. Daniels, USAF

Senior Airman Edward A. Waters, USAF

Senior Airman Eugene Thomas Giovanazzi , USAF

Senior Airman Gail E. Chandler, Ph.D., USAF

Senior Airman James J. Ramage, USAF

Senior Airman John Mark Jorgensen, USAF

Senior Airman Katelyn N. Allers, USAF

Senior Airman Lisa G. Grandstaff, USAF

Senior Airman Mark D. Lusher, USAF

Senior Airman Neal C. Melton, USAF, Retired

Senior Airman Roger C. Steffens, USAF

Senior Airman Vera Millar, USAF

Senior Airman William Charles Mitchell, USAF

Senior Master Sergeant Fred W. MacArthur, Jr., USAF, Retired

Sergeant Albert E. Akers, USAF

Sergeant Alexander Mackenzie, USA

Sergeant Andre Maria Boersma, USMC

Sergeant Arthur John Fry, USA

Sergeant Arthur William Garrett, USA

Sergeant Bobby Lee Alexander, USMC

Sergeant Borhan Mohammed Khatib, USA

Sergeant Charles E. Goode, USMC

Sergeant Clifford J. Wells, USMC

Sergeant Conrad Borovski, USA, Retired

Sergeant Craig Etchison, USA

Sergeant Danny L Shaw, USA

Sergeant David Kettenhofen, USAF

Sergeant Denise Lockren (Brinkman) Gathman, USMC

Sergeant Dennis M. Conboy, USA

Sergeant Edward P. Morrissey, USA

Sergeant Edwin B. Bergeson, USA

Sergeant Elton Duane Wilkerson, USAF

Sergeant Eugene W. Edinger Jr., USAF

Sergeant Fernando Cruz-Villalba, USA

Sergeant First Class Hugh W. Somerton, USA

Sergeant First Class Jason Lenox, USA, Retired

Sergeant First Class Kenneth C. Robinson, USA, Retired

Sergeant First Class Mark J. Bielanski, USA, Retired

Sergeant First Class Robert J. Roberts, USA

Sergeant First Class Timothy M. Williams, USA, Retired

Sergeant Francis D. Polley, USA

Sergeant Francis Peter Juranic, USAF

Sergeant Frank Pizzardi, USAF

Sergeant Fredy Champagne, USA

Sergeant Gary L. Thomas, USA

Sergeant Gerald Kennedy, USA

Sergeant Gilbert Charles Gordon Jr., USA

Sergeant Gregory Storm Cunningham, USA

Sergeant Harold Schwartz, USA

Sergeant Harry P. Brown, USA

Sergeant Henry I. Bornstein, USAF

Sergeant Henry Peterson, USA

Sergeant James A. Wilson, USA

Sergeant James Gordon Nelson, USA

Sergeant James Landrith, USMC

Sergeant James Otto Daubenberger III, USA

Sergeant Jerry D. Gilley, USAF

Sergeant Jerry Genesio, USMC

Sergeant Joe A. Blocher, USA

Sergeant John A. Keggler Junior, USA

Sergeant John DiFusco, USAF

Sergeant John Houlihan, USA

Sergeant John M Hubble, USAF

Sergeant John P. Haslinger, USAF

Sergeant John W Covey, USAF

Sergeant Joseph A. Rosado, USAF

Sergeant Katherine I. Menges, USA

Sergeant Lawrence Joseph Griffin, USA, Retired

Sergeant Leona Maltz, USMC

Sergeant Lloyd Eugene Wagner, USAF

Sergeant Major Frank J. Rankins, USA, Retired

Sergeant Major Jerry (Roger) Ferragallo, USAF

Sergeant Marcus Jansen, USA, Retired

Sergeant Mark douglas Ivey, USA

Sergeant Mark Raymond Dongu , USA

Sergeant Michael Antares, USA

Sergeant Michael Antares, USAF

Sergeant Michael Gerard McIntosh, USAF

Sergeant Neil Stuart, USAF

Sergeant Oliver V. Hines, USA

Sergeant Orville O. Gilmore, USA

Sergeant Paul Cox, USMC

Sergeant Philip A. Prichard, USA

Sergeant Ralph T. Conroy, USA

Sergeant Raymond Bentman, USA

Sergeant Raymond L Strischek, USMC

Sergeant Raymond Reed Hardy, USA

Sergeant Rebecca S. McAlary, USA

Sergeant Richard Beck Peacock, USMC, Retired

Sergeant Richard Egenriether, USA

Sergeant Richard Gillock, USMC

Sergeant Richard L. Tradewell, USA

Sergeant Richard S. Fye, USA

Sergeant Rick Venturi, USAF

Sergeant Robert A. Fischer, USA

Sergeant Robert O. Shaw, USMC

Sergeant Rodney James Owen, USA, Retired

Sergeant Russell Scott Stoermer, USA

Sergeant Sean Antonio Rosas, USA

Sergeant Seth Pollack, USA

Sergeant Stephen Constantine Demos, USMC

Sergeant Steven Schauer, USAF

Sergeant Susan K Metheny, USAF

Sergeant Theodore James Schapp, USA

Sergeant Thomas Barnes, Jr., USA

Sergeant Thomas D. Voigts, USAF

Sergeant Timothy D. Lord, USAF

Sergeant Timothy R. Mc Grady, USA

Sergeant Victoria J D Lewis, USAF

Sergeant William C. Watson, USAF

Sergeant William D. Hoffman, USA

Sergeant William Joseph Appel, USAF

Sergeant William Max Hooks, USAF

Sergeant William Robert Smiddie, USA

SP-5 E-5 Garreth L. Sanders, USA

Specialist 3 Ralph Conrad Hohneke, USA, Retired

Specialist 4 Winson C. Hinkle, USA

Specialist 4th Class George P. Russell, USA

Specialist 5 Bernstein, Simon L., USA

Specialist 5th Class Thomas J. Worrell, USA

Specialist Al Knickerbocker, USA

Specialist Albert R. Kallock Jr., USA

Specialist Anthony Lawrence Aiello, Jr, USA

Specialist Arthur Lisciandro, USA

Specialist Barry Warren Riesch, USA

Specialist Bernard L. Edelman, USA

Specialist Bertus E. Nederlof, USA

Specialist Betty Read Scott, USN

Specialist Blaine C. Gaustad, USA

Specialist Brian M. Davis, USA

Specialist Bruce Day Macdonald, USA

Specialist Byron A. Metcalf, USA

Specialist Candy Sweet Lovett, USA, Retired

Specialist Carl B. Courtnier, USA

Specialist Charles Marsh, USA

Specialist Charles Naef, USA

Specialist Christian J. Arnold, USA

Specialist Christopher Michael Turner, USA

Specialist Christopher T. Lavone, USA

Specialist Clark Buffington Lohr, USA

Specialist Clyda M. Jackson, USA

Specialist Constance Mantini, USA

Specialist Dahrl H. Bartlett, USA

Specialist Dan Gomez, USA

Specialist Daniel Pourkesali, USA, Retired

Specialist David A. Kisslring, USA

Specialist David Jon Damstrom, USA

Specialist David L. Curley, USA

Specialist David Maxwell Young, USA

Specialist David O. Depker, USA

Specialist David Ray Roop, USA

Specialist Dennis A. Good, USA

Specialist Dennis Leslie Storm, USA

Specialist Desmond P. Glynn, USA

Specialist Donna Barr, USA

Specialist Douglas M. Troutman, USA

Specialist Douglas Ward, USA, Retired

Specialist Dwayne Knox, USA

Specialist Edward Mikel, USA

Specialist Edwin G. Bergmann, USA

Specialist Fifth Class Richard E Klosterman, USA

Specialist Five Patrice Titterington, USA

Specialist Floyd Striegel, USA

Specialist Frank Griglonis, USA

Specialist Frank Zinno, USA

Specialist Fred M. Donner, Ph.D., USA

Specialist Frederic Morrison, USA

Specialist Gary A. Chipman, USA

Specialist Gary Horne, USA

Specialist Gary L. Davis, USA

Specialist Gary P. Novosielski, USA

Specialist Gary Schark, USA

Specialist George F. Gladis, USA

Specialist George John Asimos, USA

Specialist George P. Seaman, USA

Specialist Gerald R Perdue, USA

Specialist Giovanni Vassallo, USA

Specialist Ivory Leondias Shortt, USN

Specialist J. Clayson Dennis, USA

Specialist James Gregory Sutherland, USA

Specialist James LaFate Griffin, USA

Specialist James Twomey, USA

Specialist James W. Amato Jr., USA

Specialist James Welms, USA

Specialist Jan E. Smith, USA

Specialist Jeffrey Herman, USA

Specialist Jeffrey Lawrence Bauman, USA

Specialist Jimmy Dwain Parks, Ph.D., USA

Specialist Joe Carlos Aguirre, USA

Specialist John Harry Shockley, USA

Specialist John J. Gee, USA

Specialist John K. Jessup Jr., USA

Specialist John Lawrence, USA

Specialist John M West, USA

Specialist John Russell Storbeck, USA

Specialist John T. Hughes Jr., USA

Specialist Jon H. Larimore, USA

Specialist Joseph C. Galbreath, USA

Specialist Joseph Cassidy, USA

Specialist Joseph J. Cieplak, USA

Specialist Karen Rytlewski, USA

Specialist Kenneth Edward Nelson, USA

Specialist Kenneth James Dawe, USA

Specialist Kenneth Martin Stevenson III, USA

Specialist Kenneth R. Smith, USA

Specialist Kenneth R. Smith, USA

Specialist Leanne Senter-Barbour, USA

Specialist Leanne Senter-Barbour, USA

Specialist Les Dabney, USA

Specialist Malcolm Brown, USA

Specialist Martin Ray Mills, USA

Specialist Matthew Charles Plummer, USA

Specialist Merri Elizabeth Keeton, USA

Specialist Michael Alan Fox, USA

Specialist Michael Baxter, USA

Specialist Michael C. Lund, USA

Specialist Michael Earl Baker, USA

Specialist Michael Edwin Crider, USA

Specialist Michael F. Zello, USA

Specialist Michael Lawrence Job, USA

Specialist Mike Budd, USA

Specialist Neil David Harrison, USA

Specialist Nikki Coyote, USA

Specialist Owen Berio, USA

Specialist Patricia A. Oliver, USA

Specialist Patrick Joseph Gilligan, USA

Specialist Paul B. Cumpian, USA, Retired

Specialist Paul Campbell Imrie, USA, Retired

Specialist Philip Edward Dynan, USA

Specialist Ralph Chandler Daniels II, USA

Specialist Ralph E. Manon, USA

Specialist Richard Adams Lyon, USA

Specialist Richard Graham Crerie Jr., USA

Specialist Richard J. Bourgeois, USA

Specialist Richard R. Wall (now Richard W. Frieden), USA

Specialist Richard Stuart, USA, Retired

Specialist Robert A. Gould, USA

Specialist Robert E Hebrank, USA

Specialist Robert Hammers Stagg, USA

Specialist Robert Layton, USA, Retired

Specialist Robert McNulty, USA

Specialist Robert Samson Bloch, USA, Retired

Specialist Robert W. Reilly, USA

Specialist Rodger A. Herbst, USA

Specialist Roger J. Nittler, USA

Specialist Ronald Edmund Ambes, USA

Specialist Russel Hickman, USA

Specialist Samuel William French, USN, Retired

Specialist Stephen Arnold Martin, USA

Specialist Stephen Christopher Jacobs, USA

Specialist Stephen D Purnell, USA

Specialist Steve Tudisco, USA

Specialist Steven Andrew Black, USA

Specialist Terence M. Lenaghan, USA

Specialist Theodore W. Ketcham, USA

Specialist Thomas Cederquist, USA

Specialist Toby Tahja-Syrett, USA

Specialist Tom Gibson, USA

Specialist Troy Thomas Heikkala, USA

Specialist Wallace Woolfenden, USA

Specialist William H Marchant, USA

Specialist William H Miller, USA

Specialist William J. McManus, USA

Specialist William Monroe Campbell, USA

Specialist William R Wofford, USA

Specialist William Rivera, USA

Specialist Zbynek Hakos, USA

Staff Sergeant Arthur O. Washburn, USAF

Staff Sergeant Arthur S. Johnson, III, USAF

Staff Sergeant Brad Walden, USA

Staff Sergeant Carroll R. Thomas, USA

Staff Sergeant Daniel W. Warvi, USA

Staff Sergeant David T. Gray, USAF

Staff Sergeant David Zapsky, USAF

Staff Sergeant Gary E Kelly, USA

Staff Sergeant Gatch N. Maxey , USAF

Staff Sergeant Harold A. Schiffman, USA

Staff Sergeant Henry Beverly, USA

Staff Sergeant Jeremy Otis, USA

Staff Sergeant Jimmie L. Wright, USAF

Staff Sergeant John C. Salzsieder, USA

Staff Sergeant John Edward Niemi, USA

Staff Sergeant John H. Redue, Jr, USAF

Staff Sergeant John Lischalk, USA

Staff Sergeant John Olaf Frakie, USAF

Staff Sergeant John V. Chambers, USAF

Staff Sergeant Joseph Clarke Van Dine, USAF

Staff Sergeant Kathleen May Alley, USAF

Staff Sergeant Kevin Bokay, USA, Retired

Staff Sergeant Marcell Norbert Benoit, USAF

Staff Sergeant Mary Ann Parker, USAF

Staff Sergeant Millard Vincent Turner, USAF

Staff Sergeant Philip Bradford Cobb, USAF

Staff Sergeant Philip D. Yarter, USAF

Staff Sergeant Randall Richard Platt, USA

Staff Sergeant Raymond LeRoy Ensley, USAF

Staff Sergeant Robert D. Pilkey, USAF

Staff Sergeant Rollin Lind, USA

Staff Sergeant Russell W. Thompson, USAF

Staff Sergeant Ruth M. Saffry, USA, Retired

Staff Sergeant Sharon Haller, USAF

Staff Sergeant Stanley J. Bass, USAF

Staff Sergeant Terry Gabrich, USA, Retired

Staff Sergeant Thomas Nuzum, USAF

Staff Sergeant Thomas Richard Judd, USAF

Staff Sergeant William Cody Reynolds, Jr., USA

Staff Sergeant William Stanwood, USAF

Technical Sergeant Bill ONeil, USA

Technical Sergeant Daniel D. Scarlett, USA

Technical Sergeant Douglas Lloyd Perrin, USA

Technical Sergeant Eliot Freidson, USA

Technical Sergeant Gayle E. Woodul, USAF

Technical Sergeant George J. Feigenbaum, USAF, Retired

Technical Sergeant Harvey Wheeler, USA, Retired

Technical Sergeant Joseph C. Behm, USA

Technical Sergeant Joseph J. Needleman, USA

Technical Sergeant Joseph J. Perlongo, USA

Technical Sergeant Richard T. Nordland, USAF

Technical Sergeant Robert L. Bloch, USAF

Technical Sergeant Robert S Frederick, USA

Technical Sergeant Stephen H. Eddy, USAF

Technical Sergeant Steven Albert Beatty, USAF

Technician Fifth Class Elihu Edelson, USA

Technician Fifth Grade Paul Rogers Barstow, USA

Warrant Officer III Lavelle Amos Ormsbee, USA



Specialist Charles Sheehan-Miles, USA

Specialist Erik Gustafson, USA

Ensign Daniel Fahey, USN

Sergeant Erin Cole, USA

Lieutenant Barry Romo, USA

Private First Class John Zutz, USA

Private First Class David Cline, USA

Airman First Class Woody Powell, USAF

[Bailey]

Originally posted by rimrocker
On the royal thing, I don't care what a Baroness is, it's still a title representative of an aristocracy. We may have the same thing here, but at least we hide it well.

:confused:

I don't see what the problem is with life peerage. And I'm someone who believes that the UK should elect a president, as opposed to being "ruled" by a monarch (that isn't the majority view in this country).

BTW, I thought your letter was interesting (even if the signatories were a little overlong to post).

[Chance]

With all due respect to these soldiers...what the hell does a 2nd Louie or a Spec 4 or a Captain know about national needs? Their orders are to follow orders. Not decide when and where military action is needed. That is up to the voters who entrust their power to a President.

[Batman Jones]

Originally posted by Chance
With all due respect to these soldiers...what the hell does a 2nd Louie or a Spec 4 or a Captain know about national needs? Their orders are to follow orders. Not decide when and where military action is needed. That is up to the voters who entrust their power to a President.

With all due respect to you... What the hell does the average Iraqi citizen know about their own national needs? Their orders are to hold up placards denouncing the US and vote for the only guy on their ballot.

This country is different. Dissenting voices are supposed to be heard, if not heeded, even between elections.

The pro-Bush, pro-war crowd around here has now dismissed virtually every media source (credited or biased), the average citizen protester, military personnel of all ranks (not just the lower ones you chose to cite), ex-presidents, ex-cabinet members from Bush Sr.'s admin, various outspoken celebrities, the United Nations, current and former weapons inspectors, several of our trusted ally countries, the FBI and CIA, international opinion and even, for a while, the current Secretary of State and the current Congress. When they agree with Bush, their opinion counts. When they dissent, they are written off as irrelevant.

Exactly whose take on this most important of decisions would you guys deem relevant, considering that even active, high ranking military and all the other entities above average a roll-eyes reaction here for speaking out on this life and death issue?

[B-Bob]

Originally posted by Batman Jones
... virtually every media source (credited or biased), the average citizen protester, military personnel of all ranks (not just the lower ones you chose to cite), ex-presidents, ex-cabinet members from Bush Sr.'s admin, various outspoken celebrities, the United Nations, current and former weapons inspectors, several of our trusted ally countries, the FBI and CIA, international opinion and even, for a while, the current Secretary of State and the current Congress. ...
I towld u alredy that thay is dum as dert. Scru them peeples.

Warning: please, oh please, do not read this aloud.

[subtomic]

Originally posted by Chance
With all due respect to these soldiers...what the hell does a 2nd Louie or a Spec 4 or a Captain know about national needs? Their orders are to follow orders. Not decide when and where military action is needed. That is up to the voters who entrust their power to a President.

Soldiers are citizens and voters too. If these men questioned orders during battle or preparation for battle, then they would be negligent in their duties. Before that, however, they are just as entitled to express their disagreement with the policy of the President. And I would venture to say that many of these men are far more intelligent and wiser regarding national needs than a man who partied, boozed and never held a real job in his life until some of his dad's friends decided he had enough star wattage to run for governor for Texas (the epitome of a figurehead position).

[MacBeth]

Originally posted by B-Bob
I towld u alredy that thay is dum as dert. Scru them peeples.

I actually laughed out loud for a while, then read it to one of my roommates...She thought it was sort of funny, but I can state with certainty that it reads better than it sounds...Very funny.

[Refman]

Originally posted by Batman Jones
Exactly whose take on this most important of decisions would you guys deem relevant, considering that even active, high ranking military and all the other entities above average a roll-eyes reaction here for speaking out on this life and death issue?
Nobody. I don't need anybody to sift through the FACTS and decide what to do. I can tell you that if Hussein forks over 1.5 tons of anthrax, then he has 3.5 more to take its place. He isn't all of a sudden going to come clean. If you are OK with that, then I suggest 2 things:

(1) You're nuts,
(2) Your precious little UN and their big bad resolutions have been rendered meaningless due to your inaction in re Iraq's WMD.

[Chance]

Originally posted by Batman Jones
pro-war crowd

There is no such thing. Pro Bush and Pro War are totally different entities. You should know better.

And I would venture to say that many of these men are far more intelligent and wiser regarding national needs than a man who partied, boozed and never held a real job in his life until some of his dad's friends decided he had enough star wattage to run for governor for Texas (the epitome of a figurehead position).

And I quote 1988..Puh...lease. Your venture is a senseless journey.

You would be wrong. More intelligent...perhaps. If you define intelligence as the ability to regurgitate facts taught to you on a scantron. And even then I doubt it. Wiser? Again, I doubt it. Wisdom is gained by life experiences and by learning from your peers and those with whom you surround yourself. Bush has done this effectively.

Figurehead? I will give you this one. In the same breath that Clinton, Bush 41, Reagan, Carter, Kennedy, Lincoln, Harding, Washington, etc...were. They are the mouthpiece for an equal balance of their heart and the hearts of the Senate and the people.

[rimrocker]

Originally posted by Chance
With all due respect to these soldiers...what the hell does a 2nd Louie or a Spec 4 or a Captain know about national needs? Their orders are to follow orders. Not decide when and where military action is needed. That is up to the voters who entrust their power to a President.

They know as much as anyone else in this country... afterall, they are... An Army of One. By voters, did you mean 5 SC justices?

Originally posted by Chance
In the same breath that Clinton, Bush 41, Reagan, Carter, Kennedy, Lincoln, Harding, Washington, etc...were. They are the mouthpiece for an equal balance of their heart and the hearts of the Senate and the people.

Not quite. If I recall correctly, all those you mentioned were elected.

[TheHorns]

idoit

[Groogrux]

Originally posted by TheHorns
idoit

Classic. :rolleyes:

[RocketMan Tex]

Originally posted by TheHorns
idoit

I do it too!:D

[subtomic]

Originally posted by Chance
And I quote 1988..Puh...lease. Your venture is a senseless journey.

You would be wrong. More intelligent...perhaps. If you define intelligence as the ability to regurgitate facts taught to you on a scantron. And even then I doubt it. Wiser? Again, I doubt it. Wisdom is gained by life experiences and by learning from your peers and those with whom you surround yourself. Bush has done this effectively.

Figurehead? I will give you this one. In the same breath that Clinton, Bush 41, Reagan, Carter, Kennedy, Lincoln, Harding, Washington, etc...were. They are the mouthpiece for an equal balance of their heart and the hearts of the Senate and the people.

So these soldiers are nothing but a bunch of inexperienced graduates of a multiple choice education? I guess all the training and education they received as military officers pales in comparison to Bush's C-average book-learning he received at Yale. And any dumbass can get into the military; few men have the achievements like Bush that earn them a place at Ivy League schools.

And I guess fighting in wars is not the kind of experience our leaders should have. Maybe we should seek more men who went AWOL while serving in the Air National Guard and drove several oil companies into the ground. After all, they do say failure breeds character.

Finally, the military clearly doesn't have the same quality of persons like the ever-tolerant John Ashcroft and the diplomatically-savvy Donald Rumsfeld. That's why these military men don't get national needs.

I will agree that Bush has surrounded himself with some smart people. Maybe what these miltary yahoos need in order to understand the situation better is the 5-minute Policy for Dummies Cliff Notes that Condoleeza Rice regularly creates for Bush. Then they'll have a deeper and more three-dimensional understanding of national needs.

[Buck Turgidson]

Why is it surprising that some current and former military servicemen/women are against going to war in Iraq under the current set of circumstances? There's been a healthy debate on the issues in this country & a sizable percentage of the general population feels the same, why should we think that the military is a bunch of mindless drones? Whatever their opinions of the situation, I'm sure they would all serve when called.

The list of signatories is long, but give it a little perspective: it represents approx. .01% of all active & retired U.S. military personnel.

[B-Bob]

Originally posted by TheHorns
idoit
:mad: Hey! The Horns is using FRENCH on the BBS! Ban him!

;)

[B-Bob]

Originally posted by subtomic
And I guess fighting in wars is not the kind of experience our leaders should have.
Right. We want them to have owned a baseball team.

[subtomic]

Originally posted by B-Bob
Right. We want them to have owned a baseball team.

In particular, being a minority owner of a baseball team seems excellent experience for leading a country.