ClutchFans - Swoopes or Cooper

PhiSlammaJamma

03-06-2003, 04:13 PM

Swoopes would proably still win MVP, but if it came to the last shot, and Cooper is still the same, I'd give it to cooper. She's much better at creating space for herself. Sheryl Swoopes shot is great too, but her shot comes mostly from her quickness to raise and elevate.

MadMax

03-06-2003, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by University Blue
...and Robinson won the MVP the year the Rockets won the title.

University (All that Glitters) Blue

apples and oranges...

because robinson was the first option on his team...and he was awfully good...i've never heard of a second option on a basketball team winning an MVP award.

outlaw

03-06-2003, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by MadMax
apples and oranges...

because robinson was the first option on his team...and he was awfully good...i've never heard of a second option on a basketball team winning an MVP award.

well Coop did win the Finals MVP award the same year Sheryl won her first regular season MVP.

3 years is a long time to not play competitive hoops tho, especially if you are 40 years old.

If Sheryl could drive to the basket like CC used to, she would be even more dominant.

Swoopes still takes too many dumb shots. NBA-distance 3 pointers are impressive but not really necessary.

Vengeance

03-06-2003, 06:29 PM

Right now, I think Sheryl is just the very best in the WNBA. However, in her prime, there was never a female player like Cynthia Cooper. She was the Michael Jordan of the WNBA. The most dominant player by far, she was a clutch player, excellent shooter, great defender and good passer. If Cynthia comes back at about 70% of her former self (like MJ), she will be the second option. Pair Sheryl and Cynthia with Tina Thompson down low and the Comets have another championship.

houstoncart

03-06-2003, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by Vengeance
Right now, I think Sheryl is just the very best in the WNBA. However, in her prime, there was never a female player like Cynthia Cooper. She was the Michael Jordan of the WNBA. The most dominant player by far, she was a clutch player, excellent shooter, great defender and good passer. If Cynthia comes back at about 70% of her former self (like MJ), she will be the second option. Pair Sheryl and Cynthia with Tina Thompson down low and the Comets have another championship. .

Im going to admit at coopers prime there is nobody better, but you said by "far", thats not true, Sheryl Swoopes Is deadly from anywhere on the floor, she has better range, and can go off at anytime in the game.

CometsCrazy

03-06-2003, 11:22 PM

I agree with PhiSlammaJamma...give it to Coop in the clutch situations (if she stills has it). But I also think that the league has gotten a lot tougher, so it will be interesting to see how all of this pans out for Coop.

Vengeance

03-06-2003, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by houstoncart
.

Im going to admit at coopers prime there is nobody better, but you said by "far", thats not true, Sheryl Swoopes Is deadly from anywhere on the floor, she has better range, and can go off at anytime in the game.

Well, I was really intending that during her time, she was by far the most dominant player, which is certainly true -- there was no one even close to her at that time.

Now, I'd say Swoops is very dominant, but not quite in the way that Cooper was. I dunno, Cynthia just seemed to be able to take over the game completely from all aspects, in ways that Sheryl just doesn't, IMO. It's like the difference between Hakeem and David Robinson. Dream was better and more dominant and could totally dominate a game, but Robionson can do the same, just not quite as well as Dream could.

houstoncart

03-07-2003, 02:49 AM

I cant agree, but we all have opinions. : )

University Blue

03-07-2003, 09:07 AM

Right now, I think Sheryl is just the very best in the WNBA.
I disagree. Yolanda Griffith and Tamika Catchings are the two most dominant players in the game, when they are healthy.

Swoopes is definitely in the top three or four, but against teams with dominant low-post players, she tends to settle for her perimeter game.

...

Re: Cooper's return at forty, I hope she does well. Even in her prime, it wasn't her athleticism, but court awareness and body control that created shot opportunities.

University (deja Coop) Blue

Timing

03-07-2003, 12:45 PM

Coop's game is more suited to being a #1 option than Sheryl's. Coop is a creator, sets people up for shots, and is a master at drawing fouls while Sheryl isn't a good passer nor a very good dribbler and is prone to taking bad shots. The question should really be does Coop still have enough to be an all-star caliber player.

houstoncart

03-08-2003, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by Timing
Coop's game is more suited to being a #1 option than Sheryl's. Coop is a creator, sets people up for shots, and is a master at drawing fouls while Sheryl isn't a good passer nor a very good dribbler and is prone to taking bad shots. The question should really be does Coop still have enough to be an all-star caliber player.
Coop is a point guard she is suppose to be the creater, Sheryl is a Small forward once Sheryl gets going there is no stopping her. Coop was known for her offense and a little more then decent defense. There arent too many players like sheryl who dominate both ends of the court equally, the past two seasons shes played shes won both MVP of the league and defensive player of the year awards. Each year sheryl plays shes in the top 5 in scoring and steals. I honestly think sheryls is a better all around player then coop.

houstoncart

03-08-2003, 01:52 AM

Originally posted by University Blue
I disagree. Yolanda Griffith and Tamika Catchings are the two most dominant players in the game, when they are healthy.

Swoopes is definitely in the top three or four, but against teams with dominant low-post players, she tends to settle for her perimeter game.

University (deja Coop) Blue
Swoopes is both a better scorer and a better defender then Yolanda is. Tamika had the acl injury just like sheryl did, but tamika had more time to recover from it. Sheryl was still recovering from her injury last year, I honestly think that Sheryl would have had better stats than tamika did if she had as much time to recover. Yolanda is also a center so of course she is going to be more dominant in the low-post, sheryl is a small forward.

Timing

03-08-2003, 02:04 AM

Originally posted by houstoncart
Coop is a point guard she is suppose to be the creater, Sheryl is a Small forward once Sheryl gets going there is no stopping her. Coop was known for her offense and a little more then decent defense. There arent too many players like sheryl who dominate both ends of the court equally, the past two seasons shes played shes won both MVP of the league and defensive player of the year awards. Each year sheryl plays shes in the top 5 in scoring and steals. I honestly think sheryls is a better all around player then coop.

Well we were talking about offense and being the #1 option. Sheryl's offensive game is very Mobley'esque. Takes a lot of tough shots, not a good passer, and excels offensively with athleticism much more so than her basketball iq. Sheryl is a much much better player than Cooper right now but she still doesn't have that iron will/determination that made Cooper great.

houstoncart

03-08-2003, 02:16 AM

Originally posted by Timing
Well we were talking about offense and being the #1 option. Sheryl's offensive game is very Mobley'esque. Takes a lot of tough shots, not a good passer, and excels offensively with athleticism much more so than her basketball iq. Sheryl is a much much better player than Cooper right now but she still doesn't have that iron will/determination that made Cooper great.
Sheryl takes tough shots but she finishes them, she excels offensively with her athleticism because thats what works for her, and works "hella" good. I honestly dont think the comets can win a championship With just Sheryl and Tina because we need a point guard who can penetrate and pass, to take the double teams off of sheryl and Tina, and coop was the best at that. As far as will/determination, Sheryl has that, she Averaged 24.3ppg--4steals,7.5rebound, and 5.7 assists in last season playoffs, i think she was determined to win, but her team wasnt and you cant win anything like that.

CometsCrazy

03-08-2003, 10:04 PM

Swoopes is a world-class player, but Tamika Catchings deserved the MVP last year. I honestly can't see how she came in third in the MVP race. She has less professional experience than Lisa Leslie or Swoopes and she was beating both of them in most statistical categories. Tamika also deserved it because she did "more with less" (so to speak). She didn't have a Janeth or Tina (or a Delisha or Mwadi) on her team throughout the season. Actually, Tamika did not have one teammate that scored significantly on a consistent basis (check her teammates stats if you don't agree). I know that Swoopes is a one of a kind player, but Tamika was the 2002 WNBA MVP.

houstoncart

03-08-2003, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by CometsCrazy
Swoopes is a world-class player, but Tamika Catchings deserved the MVP last year. I honestly can't see how she came in third in the MVP race. She has less professional experience than Lisa Leslie or Swoopes and she was beating both of them in most statistical categories. Tamika also deserved it because she did "more with less" (so to speak). She didn't have a Janeth or Tina (or a Delisha or Mwadi) on her team throughout the season. Actually, Tamika did not have one teammate that scored significantly on a consistent basis (check her teammates stats if you don't agree). I know that Swoopes is a one of a kind player, but Tamika was the 2002 WNBA MVP.
Well they gave her rookie of the year when sue bird was more deserving, because this technically isnt tamikas rookie season. Tamika will have plenty of years to get hr some mvps. like i said before Tamika had more time coming back from the injury , and has younger bones so it is all going to heal faster. I think that was part of the decision making.

CometsCrazy

03-08-2003, 10:13 PM

It was mentioned that the Comets were not determined to win against the Starzz (except Swoopes). I don't think that was the case. Utah was just better and they brought their "A" game against the Comets. Another thing that hurt the Comets in that series was that the Comets completely UNDERESTIMATED the Starzz (including Swoopes). They, along with almost everyone else, were already looking ahead at the LA/Houston series. The entire team contributed to first round elimination.

houstoncart

03-08-2003, 10:17 PM

I exempted Swoopes from that because if you put up those kind of numbers which i posted earlier, that is straight determination. If the rest of the team was determined like swoopes was they would have came through.

CometsCrazy

03-08-2003, 10:20 PM

Swoopes is defintely a clutch player, no doubt. But how many shots was she throwing up a night to get those kinds of points? It's great if she's scoring 25 ppg, but if she's throwing up 30 shots a night she's bound to have a high scoring average.

houstoncart

03-08-2003, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by CometsCrazy
Swoopes is defintely a clutch player, no doubt. But how many shots was she throwing up a night to get those kinds of points? It's great if she's scoring 25 ppg, but if she's throwing up 30 shots a night she's bound to have a high scoring average.
Im not just talking about points, 4 steals per game, 7.5 rebounds, 5.7 assists.

CometsCrazy

03-08-2003, 10:25 PM

Well I've got to give you your props. That's true. Her numbers were impressive.

houstoncart

03-08-2003, 10:25 PM

She was 11-22 the second game 9-22 the last game and i dont know about the 1st game.

houstoncart

03-08-2003, 10:27 PM

I honestly think if Chamiq. holdsclaw didnt get injured she would have on MVP hands down.

CometsCrazy

03-08-2003, 10:32 PM

Miq was playing awesome last season. Moving her from the 3 to the 4 made a trememdous difference.

houstoncart

03-08-2003, 10:38 PM

Im looking forward to this season, I really hope C. Coop comes back. Im looking forward to the preseason game against the chinese National basketball team.

CometsCrazy

03-08-2003, 10:40 PM

I heard that Yao's girlfriend plays on the team. Do you know what position she plays? Is she a big one too?

houstoncart

03-08-2003, 10:44 PM

Yea i heard that too, I think she is also a center.

CometsCrazy

03-08-2003, 10:50 PM

Yeah that should be an interesting game. I have to admit that I'm pretty ticked off that more Comets games won't be televised. Only 2 of the 4 games against the Sparks will be on national TV. What were they thinking? If any rivalry should be on TV in its entirety it should be the Comets vs. Sparks.

houstoncart

03-08-2003, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by CometsCrazy
Yeah that should be an interesting game. I have to admit that I'm pretty ticked off that more Comets games won't be televised. Only 2 of the 4 games against the Sparks will be on national TV. What were they thinking? If any rivalry should be on TV in its entirety it should be the Comets vs. Sparks.
Yea that pretty crazy, i guess they dont care about ratings.

houstoncart

03-08-2003, 11:29 PM

I was thinking about this for a minute, as you know Cythia Cooper was a head coach in Pheonix, Im thinking that if Coop does come back her and Sheryl Will bump heads alot because now sheryl is use to being the team leader, and cynthia will be trying to get on to sheryl. I dont think sheryl will be having that. I just hope they can have that same team chemistry the all had 3 years ago, and cynthia knows what her role is on the team and not try to do vans job.

outlaw

03-09-2003, 04:27 AM

Chemistry will be a problem. That's why I think Coop should be traded to a team that can compete for a title but requires her leadership to get over the hump.

How about Coop to the Sting for Sheila Lambert? She only played 16 minutes total last year due to injury but she is a promising young point guard who was an All-American at Baylor and was the 7th overall pick last April.

Charlotte is an older team and needs to win now. Coop could be their 6th man or they could move Stinson to SF and Feaster to PF.

houstoncart

03-09-2003, 04:29 AM

feasters not big enough to be Pf, imagine her guarding tina thompson.

outlaw

03-09-2003, 04:45 AM

yeah AF is undersized but she played center at Harvard and she is a decent rebounder and pretty strong physically. Defense might be a problem but on offense she could pull opposing PF's away from the basket the way Tina does with her long range shooting. Anyway, there's not too many quality PF's in the league.

I'm not saying they should play it for 40 mins a game but a line up of Cooper, Staley, Stinson, Feaster and Sutton-Brown looks good to me.

CometsCrazy

03-09-2003, 06:51 PM

I agree with you Outlaw...let's get Sheila Lambert to Houston. I'm from the Waco area and I watched her play at Baylor for 2 years, and believe me, she's got mad skills. The Comets definitely need some youth on the team if they are going to compete with other teams like Seattle, Minnesota and even Detroit, 5 to 10 years from now. Those 3 teams may have sucked last year (with the exception of Seattle) but they are going to get good draft picks for the next couple of years and those draft picks will lead those teams in the long run. The Comets, on the other hand, 5-10 years from now are going to be a mediocre team because no matter how good Sheryl and Tina are NOW, they will not be able to carry the team forever.

Van needs to figure out a way to get some promising young players without trading the key players, Sheryl and Tina (I know he would never trade Swoopes).

Actually maybe the solution to this issue is to relinquish Van's duties as the GM and get somebody else in there that can influence and make some trades to help the future of the Comets. My suggestion? Get Penny Toler from LA.

PhiSlammaJamma

03-09-2003, 07:18 PM

Utah beat us on the Boards more than anything, but tina should be able to rememdy that situation. I honestly believe we need someone who can hit the open shot at the point. That's all we need to get over the hump. Luckily Cooper can probably still do that.

houstoncart

03-09-2003, 11:19 PM

I think that cooper could be a good on the floor teacher for Rita Williams.

University Blue

03-10-2003, 09:11 AM

I think that cooper could be a good on the floor teacher for Rita Williams.
Isn't Williams out for the season? I think Cooper would be a better teacher for Daley.

...

Re: "someone's" repeat offense at suggesting to trade Cooper -- not just no, but HECK NO.

Before Swoopes was MIA during her pregnancy, MIA in the playoffs, and missing clutch shots; it was Cynthia Cooper that carried Houston to its four championships.

It has already been proven, of the Big Three, the one player they could not afford to lose was Cooper.

...

Re: being outrebounded by Utah in last year's playoffs -- Thompson was outplayed in that series and she will not magically play better this year. Houston desperately needs Snow to improve her game or bring in another dominant post player.

...

I agree that Chancellor needs to step down as GM. His trades and draft selections SUCK.

University (Will & Grace) Blue

CometsCrazy

03-10-2003, 06:25 PM

Tina did not have her "A" games with her during the Utah series, but she was also just returning from an injury (a bruised hip). I think she could have played better, but considering she wasn't fully recovered from the injury I think she did well. But then again, tina is my all-time favorite Comet so I'm defintely biased on this subject :) !

rrj_gamz

03-10-2003, 06:27 PM

Cooper, w/o question...

I remember the 1st year the Comets came on board...

Swoopes went down w/ an injury and out of nowhere (for me) Coop steals the show and the title...

houstoncart

03-10-2003, 09:29 PM

Swoopes was pregnant, not injured. Swoopes was back for the end of the season and the playoffs, Cooper didnt do it all by herself.

CometsCrazy

03-10-2003, 11:30 PM

Coop had Tina, Kim, Janeth, Tammie and Monica throughout the season. She had Swoopes briefly during the playoffs, but by no means was Swoopes the star of 97. Coop ruled it all...the Comets and the league in 1997.

houstoncart

03-10-2003, 11:51 PM

True, But I really dont think they could do it without swoopes this season.

outlaw

03-11-2003, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by houstoncart
Swoopes was pregnant, not injured. Swoopes was back for the end of the season and the playoffs, Cooper didnt do it all by herself.

Sheryl didn't play a single minute in the 97 Championship game. But the league has increased talentwise ten-fold since then.

Tina is not gonna go quietly back to being the #3 star. She carried this team in 01 and deserves better.

houstoncart

03-11-2003, 03:14 AM

Originally posted by outlaw
Sheryl didn't play a single minute in the 97 Championship game. But the league has increased talentwise ten-fold since then.

Tina is not gonna go quietly back to being the #3 star. She carried this team in 01 and deserves better.
She didnt what? If remember correctly Swoopes was there at the end of the Season and was there for the post season. Someone who "knows" please tell me.

PhiSlammaJamma

03-11-2003, 08:26 AM

Swoopes was there. She had a big ass too. She was very slow compared to what she is now. She did contribute tho'.

PhiSlammaJamma

03-11-2003, 08:44 AM

By the way, She averaged 7 ppg that season in 14 minutes, but in the Championship she went 0-1 with 0 points. I think sahe had 20 points against Charlotte in the previous round for her season high.

outlaw

03-11-2003, 11:39 AM

OK my mistake she did play a few minutes but all I remember is when they won she looked so disappointed and unhappy. Very diva like and not much of a team player. I remember her then-husband even complaining afterwards about her playing time. She didn't even attend that first downtown victory parade because she didn't feel she contributed enough.

PSJ, she scored that 20 vs Charlotte in the regular season, in the playoffs she went 0-4 and also had 0 points against them. Maybe if she had shot better there she would have got more PT in the final.

http://www.canoe.ca/BasketballWomen/wnba_97playoffs.html
http://www.chron.com/cgi-bin/auth/story.mpl/content/chronicle/sports/bk/bkw/98/09/04/comets.html

PhiSlammaJamma

03-11-2003, 02:55 PM

If anybody knows Sheryl Swoopes Shoe size it would be greatly appreciated. I get more questions about that on my web site than anything. But I have no clue what it is.

CometsCrazy

03-11-2003, 11:17 PM

I also think that Tina will be asked to take the backseat yet again and that's not right. She is the only player (besides Janeth) that has been consistent 6 years in a row. Tina is always overlooked and underrated, and that's too bad because she is worthy of praise. She has played a huge role and has been an integral part of the Comets success and 4 championships.

As for Sheryl not contributing much in the first year, who expected her to have a baby in June, be back in August and be the leading scorer? Having a baby takes a major, MAJOR toll on your body. The fact that she played at all shows true heart and competitiveness on her part.