For argument sake: Would you trade francis for kidd?

[dragon167]

http://www.nj.com/columns/ledger/dalessandro/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/104633101311200.xml

D'Alessandro: Here's the rub for Scott: Friction with Kidd is trouble

Thursday, February 27, 2003

BY DAVE D'ALESSANDRO
Star-Ledger Staff

We don't profess to know what has been ailing the Nets lately, but we know where to go to get some opinions. And here is the grim reality, as characterized by some people who are the most worried about the current circumstances:

The problems around here are worse than you think. They may even be worse than Byron Scott thinks, and worse than Jason Kidd is willing to admit.

For the first time since last season's joy ride to the NBA Finals, there are concerns that the coach and the star aren't getting along like they used to. You can see the signs from afar, for those alert to nuance. It didn't begin with those remarks Scott made about Kidd a week ago after the Miami game ("I didn't think the game was very interesting to him") and it probably won't end with the 105-76 drubbing over the Knicks last night.

It wasn't addressed specifically in subsequent remarks from Kidd ("Guys enjoy structure") and it won't be addressed by them in public at all, because both are too professional to share their disagreements with the media.

But this much is readily apparent, at least to those who know both men well, and know how hard it is to maintain the chemistry they've had around here since Kidd's arrival 17 months ago: Their relationship is being tested now, with the Nets struggling more than ever before on Kidd's watch, and nobody can be certain about how this is going to play out.

Maybe you've spotted the signs yourself. We've lost count of the number of times Kidd has glanced over to the bench in crunch time this month to see whether Scott wanted a specific play, only to have his coach turn his back on him. It is symptomatic of what one Nets insider says is a problem that has been brewing for a while.

"Let's put it this way," he said. "Jay just wishes that Byron would do more coaching than the other stuff he gets involved in. And that's a problem."

How serious is this? Well, for those alarmists among us, another person in the organization says, "I used to think it's 80-20 that Jay would re-sign here. Now I think it's no better than 50-50."

We don't share this with the intentions of distributing the periodic dish of NBA demagoguery, but you should know this: These aren't the only ones in the organization who believe this relationship is worth watching.

Indeed, this is probably the kind of conflict that arises every month on every team -- winning teams, losing teams. What makes this different is that the Good Ship Nets has never had such a problem before, because of the chemistry fostered between head coach and star player. Now that chemistry is being threatened, or at least tested.

And you can easily understand why it is happening. The star is playing his butt off, and more often than not, with very little help. He is waiting for the coach to do something -- anything -- to give the team some binding purpose to hold on to against the tide.

That's his challenge, and now we find out whether he's up to it. It doesn't help, of course, that he often gets sidetracked by the most idiotic of circumstances. The Sprewell rubbish was significant: Scott's foot-in-mouth routine is harmful enough to his credibility, but when you take on one of the most popular athletes in the market -- even if some of what you say is accurate -- you are asking for negative headlines.

That's how Lou Lamoriello saw it, anyway. We're told that hockey man went Defcon 3 when he heard about the anti-Spree remarks, and called his coach in to remind him -- not so gently -- that he had ordered him to shut his trap when it came to criticizing another team's personnel. Sounds like one of those NHL protocols, but for once, hockey man is right.

Apparently, Scott got the message: "I'm going to be me," he announced to a breathless world last night. "But obviously I'm going to watch what I say around you guys from now on."

See? Coaching is a matter of adjustments. That's probably his best one lately.

Sorry, cheap shot. But whether Scott knows it or not, there are cheap shots emanating from every corner of the organization lately. Even some of his players wonder why he shows up at 6 p.m., wonder why he needs a nap every afternoon. Odd, but they never questioned his work habits when the team was the class of the East, and they probably shouldn't start now.

No one has any idea of how much time Scott puts into the job, really. But we're talking about perception here, and perhaps he has some work to do in that regard, or at least give his players a better idea of what they can do to get out of their present situation.

We've criticized him before, but in the end, you must admit that Scott has handled his affairs quite well. He has assembled an exquisitely balanced staff. He got his team a conference title in his second year. He's doing a lot of things right.

Others might say that success has always been the greatest of liars, that we really cannot judge how good a coach he is until he is forced to adjust to circumstances that threaten his credibility. The best ones do this, and survive it. It's Scott's turn now. He's not off to a good start, judging by his remarks after Tuesday's Cleveland debacle -- their fifth loss against a sub-.500 team this month.

That night, the coach admitted, "I am searching a little bit."

Better find it. And soon.

Dave D'Alessandro appears



For argument sake: Would you trade francis for kidd?

[carayip]

That's NO chance of that happening. Why bother discussing it? :o

[vcchlw]

Well, possibility rite?But who knows?

I would pick Kidd of course. Kidd can make every player in his team play better.

[OverRRated]

Hell yes.
Yes.
Hell yes.

[Yetti]

No we need to keep Steve Franchise and get us a couple of Point Guards.

[MFW2310]

No. Kidd is at his prime and can only go downhill from here. Francis still has a chance to get better (one can only hope). But if Kidd is couple years younger, definitely.

[GATER]

Originally posted by MFW2310
No. Kidd is at his prime and can only go downhill from here. Francis still has a chance to get better (one can only hope). But if Kidd is couple years younger, definitely.

Your logic confuses me. Gary Payton is 5 years older than Kidd. Stockton is 10 years older than Kidd. There is less dropoff in productive for players who use their brains as well as their athleticism.

The Rockets currently have the second youngest starting lineup in the league and PG is one of the toughest positions to learn. This may be really offensive to some posters, but Kidd has forgotten more about how to run a fast break the Francis knows. A 30 year old Jason Kidd can grab a rebound and make a basket at the other end of the court in 4.6 seconds (he did it twice on an ESPN broadcast where they placed a stopwatch in the corner of the screen).

Now if Kidds "ages" and his ability to run the fastbreak from 4.6 drops to 5.6, it's still measurably faster than the Rockets current break.

Ignoring any salary differences, I'd do it a heartbeat. IMHO, a presence like Kidd would have a hidden immediate benefit - either Griffins game would immediately be elevated or it would be proven once and for all that the trade was a mistake.

Unfortunately, like carayip pointed out, there is no chance of the ever happening.

[striker]

Sorry. Kidd is going to San Antonio. :D

[Toast]

Interesting article. I wonder if some of the problems stem from Kidd having "lame duck" syndrome. He's not gonna be in NJ next year, so should he REALLY care about the future of the team?

Oh, um, go Rockets.

[Live]

Not for arguments sake, but for the sake of clarifying some roles on the team, I would consider a Francis-Kidd trade.

If Francis can't balance "play-maker" and "1st option" roles, then he needs someone to spell it out for him.

If that means a trade, so be it.

[3-a-charm]

No Brainer. Kidd, hands down, in a heart beat, right now if not sooner. Kidd would take this team further than Francis, but, this team needs other changes for a championship.

[Easy]

Kidd is clearly the better player right now. And Kidd isn't known for relying on his athleticism. So old age will have less effect on him. Let's assume (assumption #1) he can be productive at the current level for another 6 years, and assume (assumption #2) Yao and Griffin needs another year to mature. That's 4 shots at the championship, as a contender, not necessary a favorite--two years from now. (scenario #1)

Now, Francis has more physical talent than Kidd but not as much brain. Let's assume (assumption #3) that it takes another 5 years for him to smart up, he will then be about as old as Kidd now. Francis with brain and athleticism will be better than Kidd now (awesome). By then, Yao will be in his prime too. Let's assume (assumption #4) that Francis will be awesome for 3 years and be great (losing athleticism but not brain, comparable to Kidd now) for 3 more years. That's 3 championship favorite years and 3 championship contending years--five years from now. (scenario #2)

Which scenario do you want? If all the assumptions were equally valid, I'd pick scenario #2, waiting for our time with patience. However, I have some doubt with assumption #3. If Francis never gets his brain to make him "awesome", then we will probably be inconsistent throughout the next decade until Francis loses his athleticism.

[JoeBarelyCares]

Originally posted by Easy
. . . . until Francis loses his athleticism.

Which is usually right about the time a player's brain sharpens.

[CriscoKidd]

Yes.

I would love to see the talent of this team displayed to it's full potential, and Kidd would do that imo.

[heypartner]

The future is all about Yao Ming, and Kidd could teach Yao a lot, while winning a championship in the process. And Mobley, Posey would make one helluva fastbreaking trio with Kidd. Talk about giving Kidd some finishers....maaaan.

I'd do it, and I'd ask for a draft choice, too, to offset the age difference. That said, I would not trade Francis for anything else except a proven PF.

[heypartner]

btw: the other reason to make the trade is to prevent San Antonio from getting Kidd. If they get Kidd, forget it!

[Baqui99]

I'd be just as happy with TJ Ford, a poor man's Kidd, running the point. But, yes, I'd trade Steve for Kidd in a NY minute.

[dwmyers]

I love Steve, but Kidd is the better player. He'd be gone in an instant.

Dave

[jxu777]

You guys are some cold-blooded ... uh ... homers:D

Kidd is a great point guard (ooops, everybody knows that). I watched Kidd since the 3-J days with the Mavs and that funky "revolution led by Jason Kidd" ad. But, somehow, I have a ? attached to Kidd wherever he goes.

I don't like trading people in general. I don't like this trade in particular. Steve is still coachable at his age. Kidd is not. When going gets rough deep into the playoffs, I think Steve will be more endurable and damaging than Kidd. I can't wait to see Kidd playing in the West.

Did Q1 of that NY game stimulate some? When Cat brought the ball up and pulled couple of jumpers off screens? I still hold my belief that the Rockets will be so much better if they play within a sound system. At crunch time, I take a Steve-Ming game over a Kidd-mob-Ming game.

Oops, I sound like a homer ;)

[LiTtLeY1521]

Of course I would love Jason Kidd. He is the best true point guard!!!

But of course...we would never get him...So YEAH.

[Bob]

That said, I would not trade Francis for anything else except a proven PF.

There are 7 players that would be no brainer trade right now for Francis: Pierce, Kobe, Nowitzski, Ray Allen, Wallace, Duncan. I would add KG to the list if his contract weren't ridiculous.

Then there are 10 or so others I might consider such as:Brand, Stackhouse, Odom, Carter, Jamison, Davis, Rip, J Oneal

[jxu777]

Originally posted by Bob
There are 7 players that would be no brainer trade right now for Francis: Pierce, Kobe, Nowitzski, Ray Allen, Wallace, Duncan. I would add KG to the list if his contract weren't ridiculous.

Then there are 10 or so others I might consider such as:Brand, Stackhouse, Odom, Carter, Jamison, Davis, Rip, J Oneal

Taiters ... uh, sorry, I mean, traders. Please let's know there is no sarcasm involved. I am bad at appreciating black humors.

Could you please elaborate a little bit on those 7 no brainers in the Rockets standpoint? I state my 2c first.

Steve vs Piece: the steal of the centry for Boston. Piece will be a third string player in all those West contenders, a.k.a., the NBA championship contenders. Way overrated.

Steve vs Kobe: oops, my bad.

Steve vs Nowitzski: trade Yao for Dirk makes more sense for the Rockets than this one.

Steve vs Allen: the robbery of the West. I don't trust jump shooters in the last two minutes of a championship game.

Steve vs Wallace: Rasheed, resounding no. Ben, intrigueing but still no.

Steve vs Duncan: um, Pop, are you drunk.

For 10 or others, except for Brand, it's an insult to Steve and the Rockets organization if they even contemplate for just a second.

[canoner2002]

Originally posted by MFW2310
No. Kidd is at his prime and can only go downhill from here. Francis still has a chance to get better (one can only hope). But if Kidd is couple years younger, definitely.

The question is whether SF can ever get to the level of Kidd now and how long is it going to take and if by any chance SF get to that level, how long is he going to stay at his prime.

I think Kidd will be interested in coming here. Net doesn't have much potential left and there is no chance he will get a ring if he stays. If he comes to houston, he can play at this level for another 3-5 years and get a good chance of getting a title ring.

For Rox, it is much better to have an experienced leader while Yao grows to be dominant. If Rox stick with SF-Yao, there is chance that both of them will fail.

[silvercatt]

Imagine a clever PG who is famous for his passing skill team-up with a smart center who can pass. WOW!

Houston better butter up Kidd now and find away to convince him to play for them before San Antonio does. The Rockets gonna have a tough tough time beating the Spurs for many years to come if Kidd decides to play for the Spurs. Two brains are better than one.

[Sane]

The question is, how much better than Francis is Kidd in the halfcourt?

We saw Yao Ming trying to run with the Mavs last time. Let's be honest, you know Yao Ming isn't going to be a "runner". We saw what Mutombo did to the Nets earlier in the season.

Is Kidd better than Francis enough in the halfcourt to offset the 4 more million he'd make, in addition to being 3 years older?

[LiTtLeY1521]

:)

[Alirules]

Maybe we should see how Steve does in the playoffs a couple of years before we trade him

[silvercatt]

Originally posted by Sane
The question is, how much better than Francis is Kidd in the halfcourt?

We saw Yao Ming trying to run with the Mavs last time. Let's be honest, you know Yao Ming isn't going to be a "runner". We saw what Mutombo did to the Nets earlier in the season.

Is Kidd better than Francis enough in the halfcourt to offset the 4 more million he'd make, in addition to being 3 years older?

Mutombo is an ancient relic, he's not as clever nor he has the offensive and passing skills even comparing to the rookie now. Yao has a good chance to be a defensive force like Mutombo or even exceed him in the next few years.

Last night, the Wizards game, I was amazed by how well yao runs, particularly, on one play late in the 4th quarter of the Rockets comeback. He grabbed a defensive rebound passed it to Steve, who has a good head start for the fast break, then some how Yao outran everybody to the other end of the court to receive an alley-oop pass from Steve. I never seen anybody that tall could push his body like that. I think Yao can run with anybody once he gets his NBA stamina.

I believe Yao would definitely work well with Kidd. He needs a smart veteran PG like Kidd to accelerate his development to a higher level.

[carayip]

Originally posted by silvercatt
I believe Yao would definitely work well with Kidd. He needs a smart veteran PG like Kidd to accelerate his development to a higher level.

Just which player in the world wouldn't benefit playing with Kidd?

But end this argument now. That's no chance of that happening.

[carayip]

Just which player in the world wouldn't benefit playing with Kidd?

Just want to add... I could imagine that even I could score a few baskets running with Kidd! :)

[silvercatt]

Originally posted by carayip
Just which player in the world wouldn't benefit playing with Kidd?

But end this argument now. That's no chance of that happening.

no argument there but if there's a chance to get Kidd why not?not all players have the chance to benefit from playing with Kidd.

[carayip]

Originally posted by silvercatt
no argument there but if there's a chance to get Kidd why not?not all players have the chance to benefit from playing with Kidd.

Why there's a chance? New Jersey wouldn't do this trade ever.

It's like talking about trading Yao for Shaq. LA wouldn't do it in a million years.

Pretty meaningless discussion.

[dragon167]

Originally posted by carayip
Why there's a chance? New Jersey wouldn't do this trade ever.

It's like talking about trading Yao for Shaq. LA wouldn't do it in a million years.

Pretty meaningless discussion.

Hi

I am no nba expert but I read that Kidd would get more money in the new contract through sign and trade rather than free agent. I think kidd wants to win championship and doesnt want to join a developing club. But if money is his major concern and he forces sign and trade, dont you think that we are as competitive as any other clubs if we offer francis? For example, what can san antonio, denver or miami offer?

[acejeff5]

hell yea

[carayip]

Originally posted by dragon167
I think kidd wants to win championship and doesnt want to join a developing club.

You said it. But we're a developing club, not a championship club now. We won't be contending in the very near future until Yao and EG fully develop.

Kidd will either resign with NJ or go to SA.

[montelwilliams]

Kidd brings in lots of revenue and exposure to the Nets. There is no way they would trade him.

These trade threads are as stupid as the Rocket's gameplan.

[StupidMoniker]

I would say the chances of it happening are slim, because you rarely see franchise players traded, but Kidd was recently traded for Marbury, and Payton was recently traded for Ray Allen (with Des Mason as a throw in :eek: ), so anything is possible. Kidd would have to want to come here, but maybe playing with Yao and the Cat could entice him away from Duncan. I think New Jersey would certainly rather have Steve than nothing, and we might even convince them to throw in a pick. I think we would have as good a chance as New Jersey if we made such an offer. I would do the trade because I think that Steve will not play off the ball for the majority of the time and he has not shown consistancy as a decision maker. I would rather get a consistant PF like a Brand (or Duncan, but talk about not gonna happen) and a Snow quality PG, but Kidd could do wonders for our offense while turning around our PG defense.

[Nautic]

No brainer.

[bigballerj]

You're right about the Rox being a developing club. But guess what, so was NJ before Kidd arrived. Kidd will make everyone on this team better. He will even make it look like Rudy knows what the hell hes doing. Yao will become better much faster and will offset any aging Kidd has 3-5 years down the line. At this point, I would offer SF <b>and</b> EG for Kidd and sign a blue-collar 4 (Oakley, Grant type player) for the mid-class exception.

[MadGame2002]

Steve francis and other expendables with exception to Yao and Cat for Kidd? YES!
Jason Kidd is an awesome point guard.
But it will never happen. Too many negatives for that to happen. Although, I never thought Pippen would ever play for us,but he did.
But still never gonna happen.

[MFW2310]

Originally posted by canoner2002
The question is whether SF can ever get to the level of Kidd now and how long is it going to take and if by any chance SF get to that level, how long is he going to stay at his prime.

I think Kidd will be interested in coming here. Net doesn't have much potential left and there is no chance he will get a ring if he stays. If he comes to houston, he can play at this level for another 3-5 years and get a good chance of getting a title ring.

For Rox, it is much better to have an experienced leader while Yao grows to be dominant. If Rox stick with SF-Yao, there is chance that both of them will fail.

You trade for an older veteran player at the top of his peak if you think he can help you win the title NOW. With the Rox, some of the missing pieces are simply still not in place. Yao is still a rook and still will get a lot better. EG is going nowhere fast. Cat is well... Cat. Not to mention we have 2 3's one of which is a dinosaur, the other got the shootingtitis from playing on a crappy team. If we make this trade, Kidd will decline as we become the next Minnie. Sure the players can learn from him (eg. how to pass, sad to know our C is the only one on the team who can pass), but he will not help us win the championship.

[GATER]

Originally posted by MFW2310
You trade for an older veteran player at the top of his peak if you think he can help you win the title NOW. With the Rox, some of the missing pieces are simply still not in place. ...

If we make this trade, Kidd will decline as we become the next Minnie. Sure the players can learn from him (eg. how to pass, sad to know our C is the only one on the team who can pass), but he will not help us win the championship.

Your logic has a serious flaw. There is not that much difference in NBA experience.

Cat 4 yrs vs Kittles 5 yrs
Rice 13 yrs vs Lucious Harris 9 yrs
Posey 3 yrs vs Jefferson 1 yr
Taylor 4 yrs or Griffin 1 yr vs Martin 2 yrs
Cato 5 yrs vs Aaron Williams 8 yrs
Ming R vs Jason Collins 1 yr

Moochie 5 yrs vs Rodney Rogers 9 yrs (only 2 years of age difference)
TMo 1yr vs Anthony Johnson 5 yrs or Scalabrine 1 yr

If the Nets were dumb enough to make the swap, the experience level is easily diminished by getting rid of or making good use of Rice and gettting vet help via the MCE. No way in h*** Houston becomes the next Minnesota. More like the next Kings or Mavs.

And please don't try to lay Mutombo on me. He has played a grand total of 400 minutes for the Nets. Less than any Net I have listed.

[Sane]

Kidd is leaving for sure. If he doesn't want to sign as an FA for another team, and we're willing to give up Steve, than we could have him.

Basically, New Jersey would do it, but Jason Kidd wouldn't. Everyone knows he's leaving, and if they must get something for him, they can not do better than Francis.

Still, I wouldn't make the trade. Kidd is 3 years older, and his contract will run longer than Francis', and he'll make much more money.

[rockyymf]

If spur gets Kidd, let's trade somebody for Parker and move Francis to 2.

[Uprising]

for Parker?!...:eek:

[MFW2310]

Originally posted by GATER
Your logic has a serious flaw. There is not that much difference in NBA experience.

Cat 4 yrs vs Kittles 5 yrs
Rice 13 yrs vs Lucious Harris 9 yrs
Posey 3 yrs vs Jefferson 1 yr
Taylor 4 yrs or Griffin 1 yr vs Martin 2 yrs
Cato 5 yrs vs Aaron Williams 8 yrs
Ming R vs Jason Collins 1 yr

Moochie 5 yrs vs Rodney Rogers 9 yrs (only 2 years of age difference)
TMo 1yr vs Anthony Johnson 5 yrs or Scalabrine 1 yr

If the Nets were dumb enough to make the swap, the experience level is easily diminished by getting rid of or making good use of Rice and gettting vet help via the MCE. No way in h*** Houston becomes the next Minnesota. More like the next Kings or Mavs.

And please don't try to lay Mutombo on me. He has played a grand total of 400 minutes for the Nets. Less than any Net I have listed.

Think again. The Nets also plays in the East. All the teams that have legitimate shots at the championship are in the West. You win the West you win the championship. Move the Nets to the West they'd be 6th, not to mention they play more games against easier teams.

Also, Kittles doesn't hog the ball as much. Harris and Rice is a wash. Jefferson can play O a lot better than JP. Either Taylor or EG would be lucky they're anywhere near KMart next season and the only real advantage we have is in Yao, who's getting double/triple teamed not to mention getting fouled almost as much as Shaq.

[DreamWeaver]

Let's assume that we could get Kidd for Francis. How would Kidd's presence make us a better team if Rudy still runs the same motion-less offense? We need an overhaul.

Besides, I think SF has all the tools to turn this Rox team into a championship team. I am willing to give him a few more seasons.

[Puedlfor]

Jason Kidd has never played for a contending team, or a team that even really had a chance at contending.

I don't know if Steve Francis will ever become a major part of a contending team, but I know Jason Kidd hasn't.

[MadGame2002]

In my opinion , Jason Kidd will be around for a long time. Just like Stockton ,who is almost or is 40. I think Jason Kidd wil be around for another 7 or 8 years.I think the PG position requires the following skills ; Court Vision,Good Defense, and Great passing skills. Jason Kidd has all these and more. Back in the day the pg's job was to get everyone involved,not score in bunches or make the highlight reel. I think if Steve Francis was a couple of more inches taller he would be a phenominal Shooting Guard. Heck, i think he can be a phenominal Shotting guard now. My view is that we should groom him to be of a more Allen Iverson type of a player. There's a philosophy that says "play to your strengths." Steve has awesome 1 on 1 skills. He's very adept to playing good defense (when he's not hurt with a strained back.)Mainly , its my thinking that Rudy doesnt want to concede that Steve Francis is not a PG more than anyone. Everyone knows he doesnt have the skills to run the PG position with exception to good defense. I'de love to see Steve moved to the shooting guard position. He's gotten better at hitting open shots each year,and with the allowance of Zone defenses we couldnt really be exploited with him at the Shooting Guard position.I could imagine Steve Francis at the shooting guard position requiring Kobe's all attention on D which takes his focus off offensea little bit.The same goes for the other teams with good 2's.Since i've said all this I've seen the light, I think Steve shouldnt be traded at all. Well,maybe if we get a "potential" superstar back in return and something else in return.But basically the missing pieces to this team are ; a true PG,and a shooter from the wing ala Peja from Sacramento. I dont know how Bostjan Nachbar plays but he could be someone. Toughness from our frontcourt will come after weve played some seasons.We definitely need to get a bit nastier.Thats what I like about Yao , you see glimpses of his tenacity on both sides of the court.

[StupidMoniker]

Originally posted by Puedlfor
Jason Kidd has never played for a contending team, or a team that even really had a chance at contending.

I don't know if Steve Francis will ever become a major part of a contending team, but I know Jason Kidd hasn't.

Doesn't being in the NBA finals count as contending? Where the Lakers the ONLY contending team last year? Kidd has also never had a center the Quality of Yao Ming.

[Mr. Clutch]

Originally posted by Puedlfor
Jason Kidd has never played for a contending team, or a team that even really had a chance at contending.

I don't know if Steve Francis will ever become a major part of a contending team, but I know Jason Kidd hasn't.


What!? The Nets went to the NBA Finals last year. And before that, when he was on Phoenix, they reglarly went to the playoffs. Jason Kidd almost singlehandedly can turn a team into a contendor.

[Mr. Clutch]

Originally posted by Sane
Kidd is leaving for sure. If he doesn't want to sign as an FA for another team, and we're willing to give up Steve, than we could have him.

Basically, New Jersey would do it, but Jason Kidd wouldn't. Everyone knows he's leaving, and if they must get something for him, they can not do better than Francis.

Still, I wouldn't make the trade. Kidd is 3 years older, and his contract will run longer than Francis', and he'll make much more money.


Who knows, maybe Kidd will want to do it. He'll get a chance to play with Yao Ming and a solid cast of supporting players. And he'll get a chance to play for Rudy T., who's gota couple of rings. I know he's interested in the Spurs because they have Duncan, but Yao Ming is getting better and better.

I don't see Francis ever providing all the intangibles that Kidd provides.

[LiTtLeY1521]

Hmmmmmm......THAT WOULD BE AWESOME.
If we could sign......IF we COULD......in the offseason.
Francis and Kidd...that would be EVEN BETTER than Payton and Cassell.
Francis and Kidd would be awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!! It would have some difficulties....but it would still be sweet.
Just imagine.....
along with Yao.
And 6th man Cuttino Mobley......
We could go extremely small with Kidd, Francis, and Mobley. And then have Yao and Cato!!! Balanced...

But way too much money. Dreaming.

[Drexlerfan22]

My ideal for this team's future is for Ming to turn into a point-center, ala Olajuwon/Sabonis/Divac, so I want a more offensive-minded player at point. Kidd wouldn't work as well off the pick-and-roll or the kickout for the three, plus he's older than Steve. I would definitely keep Steve.

[canoner2002]

The answer is YES YES YES, in only we can make the trade. Kidd is much better than SF now, and this won't change in the next few years. Kidd is smarter, more physical, and more experienced. 99% of non-rox fan would agree Kidd is a better player and will lead Rox further.

[GATER]

Originally posted by MFW2310
Think again. The Nets also plays in the East. All the teams that have legitimate shots at the championship are in the West. You win the West you win the championship. Move the Nets to the West they'd be 6th, not to mention they play more games against easier teams.

Also, Kittles doesn't hog the ball as much. Harris and Rice is a wash. Jefferson can play O a lot better than JP. Either Taylor or EG would be lucky they're anywhere near KMart next season and the only real advantage we have is in Yao, who's getting double/triple teamed not to mention getting fouled almost as much as Shaq.

First, your original point was that since Kidd was older than Francis he would be too old by the time the other Rockets "matured". My chart of NBA experience levels total refutes your lack of experience theory. There's little to no difference. Surely nothing that can't easily be fixed by using the MCE for a vet.

Secondly, "move the Nets to the West and they'd be 6th"...and this is because of what? That Jason Kidd is only marginally better than Francis and the rest of the Nets are a lot better than their Houston counterparts? Not IMO.

* "Kittles doesn't hog the ball" - I'm assuming you mean like Cuttino. Tell you what...start a thread advocating an even swap with the Nets and see what response you get. FYI, the ball hogging Cuttino averages a whole 1.1 fewer assists per 48 minutes played than Kittles.

* "Jefferson can play O a lot better than JP" - Yes and No. Jefferson is the 3rd leading scorer on the Nets at 14.9 but I wonder how much of that is due to finishing a Kidd led fastbreak as opposed to a half court set. Without question, Posey would be a devasting finisher on a Kidd led break.

This comparison is fundamentally an apples and oranges one as Posey is not asked nor required to be the Rox 3rd option. In fact, he probably 5th. FYI, Jefferson shoots a whole 1.4% from the arc compared to Posey.

And as you have graciously pointed out - Jefferson is getting his numbers in the EC.

* "Either Taylor or EG would be lucky they're anywhere near KMart next season" - Problem here. Neither Taylor nor Griffin have to be better than Martin. Since it's a team game, all that would be required is that they collectively equal Martin and his backup. I don't have the inclination (but I will if you force me) to get a per minute productivity comparison but I'd by willing to make a small wager that EG+MoT ~= KMart vs. common opponents.

There is a reason why on a Rockets board that trading a popular Rockets PG Franchise Player for another PG is running 90% in favor of doing it. What is obscured to you is that fact that Kidd makes the other 4 players around him better and that the verdict is still out whether Steve Francis will be able to do that. And that ability IMHO is a requirement before the Rockets can compete in the WC Finals.

[Puedlfor]

Was New Jersey in the Finals? I guess someone forgot to tell them, because they didn't seem to show up. Y'all seem to be under the impression that I think the Eastern Conference is worth a damn, I don't. It's the NIT to the NCAA that is the Western Conference.

And before that, when he was on Phoenix, they reglarly went to the playoffs.

And they regularly got trounced in the playoffs by teams that actually played decent half-court defense. Which is what happened when the Nets finally played the Lakers in the Finals last year.

Jason Kidd is a damn fine player, and I can see him entering the Hall of Fame on day - but he's never been on a contending team, because once he gets to the playoffs, and runs into a team that can shut down the transition game, and turn things into a half court contest, Kidd's inability to shoot dooms his team to playoff failure.

[GATER]

Originally posted by Puedlfor
...once he gets to the playoffs, and runs into a team that can shut down the transition game, and turn things into a half court contest, Kidd's inability to shoot dooms his team to playoff failure.

Your theory is in grave danger if the Finals are between NJ and SAC or DAL. :D

It would also be in danger if Kidd had Yao Ming in the low post (or Tim Duncan).

[carayip]

Yes Kidd's Phoenix regularly got trounced in the playoffs. But it's still better than Francis's Rockets not making the playoffs.

[MFW2310]

Originally posted by GATER
First, your original point was that since Kidd was older than Francis he would be too old by the time the other Rockets "matured". My chart of NBA experience levels total refutes your lack of experience theory. There's little to no difference. Surely nothing that can't easily be fixed by using the MCE for a vet.

Secondly, "move the Nets to the West and they'd be 6th"...and this is because of what? That Jason Kidd is only marginally better than Francis and the rest of the Nets are a lot better than their Houston counterparts? Not IMO.

* "Kittles doesn't hog the ball" - I'm assuming you mean like Cuttino. Tell you what...start a thread advocating an even swap with the Nets and see what response you get. FYI, the ball hogging Cuttino averages a whole 1.1 fewer assists per 48 minutes played than Kittles.

* "Jefferson can play O a lot better than JP" - Yes and No. Jefferson is the 3rd leading scorer on the Nets at 14.9 but I wonder how much of that is due to finishing a Kidd led fastbreak as opposed to a half court set. Without question, Posey would be a devasting finisher on a Kidd led break.

This comparison is fundamentally an apples and oranges one as Posey is not asked nor required to be the Rox 3rd option. In fact, he probably 5th. FYI, Jefferson shoots a whole 1.4% from the arc compared to Posey.

And as you have graciously pointed out - Jefferson is getting his numbers in the EC.

* "Either Taylor or EG would be lucky they're anywhere near KMart next season" - Problem here. Neither Taylor nor Griffin have to be better than Martin. Since it's a team game, all that would be required is that they collectively equal Martin and his backup. I don't have the inclination (but I will if you force me) to get a per minute productivity comparison but I'd by willing to make a small wager that EG+MoT ~= KMart vs. common opponents.

There is a reason why on a Rockets board that trading a popular Rockets PG Franchise Player for another PG is running 90% in favor of doing it. What is obscured to you is that fact that Kidd makes the other 4 players around him better and that the verdict is still out whether Steve Francis will be able to do that. And that ability IMHO is a requirement before the Rockets can compete in the WC Finals.

Now look here, here's the difference between the Rox and the Nets, how to play together. You realized I did not mention the word experience in my original post because I don't think experience is the problem, that's why I said "the missing pieces are not in place." It's a mixture of chemistry, in which the Rox simply don't know how to play together, or it can be attributed to smarts, you gotta admit, some of our players have questionable intelligence/learning curve. Like it or not, the Net simply play better together than we do.

I'll let go the fact that Kidd is a much better playmaker than Steve, but are the Nets - Kidd a lot better than the Rox - SF? Skill wise, maybe not, but chemistry wise, yes, miles ahead. The Nets' record is 38-21, the Rox are 30-28. Take away 3 wins from the Nets and add 3 losses due to being in the East, they still have a much better record than the Rox. The Nets score 96.3PPG, while giving up 89.6. They are in difference conference so I can't compare conference records, but the Nets win about 57% of their games against WC teams and about 68% against EC teams. The Rox are 55% against EC and 50% against WC. So you tell me which supporting cast is better. Bottom line, the Nets are ready to play with Kidd but the Rox might not be.

JP is not our third option, but in the last couple of games he seems to think he is. Taking all those shots and missing.

Basketball is a team game, no argument, but you forget we will never have EG and Mo on the floor at the same time (and thank god for that too).

90% of people on here wants to get Kidd because they are fed up with our losing (gee I wonder why if the Nets are not better) and are not thinking long term. Kidd does make the other 4 players better, he will help you win NOW, but he will not help you win the championship. If Kidd can't help the Nets win the championship even if the Nets are only marginally better than the Rox, what makes you think he can help the Rox win it NOW.

[rvpals]

If we want a championship in 2 years or less, we will take JKidd.

If we want a championship in 4 years or more, we stay with Franchise if Franchise becomes a better player.

[James23]

of course, you would want to trade francis for kidd because kidd is one of the best PG in the game. he's very good at running the offense and defending other guards. if we were to trade francis, we might as well trade mobley because he's not a consistent shooter to complement kidd. when Kidd creates shoots for his teammates, they have to knock them down. otherwise, he starts to shoot. as all of you know, jkidd has a horrific outside shoot.

[MFW2310]

Originally posted by rvpals
If we want a championship in 2 years or less, we will take JKidd.

If we want a championship in 4 years or more, we stay with Franchise if Franchise becomes a better player.

We won't win a championship in 2 yrs or less. Kidd has shown that even he can't take the Nets (an overalll better team) to win a championship, in fact not even close. They got whipped pretty good by the Lakers, why do you think he can take the Rox there? Like I said, if the Nets are in the WC they'd be 6th and there is no way they'd make it out of the second round, assuming they even survive the first round. Kidd also happens to be in his prime so that by the time Yao and EG are developed (if EG ever gets better), Kidd will be long going downhill, so we're without a PG again. We'd be much better sticking with SF because in a couple of years, Shaq will retire and we have the best rook in Yao. It will be much better to have a Steve in his prime and Yao's got more game than now but still getting better than Yao not all the way there yet and Kidd ready to retire.

[ACL1]

No!
But I will trade for Cat in a heartbeat, and move steve to 2. :D

[hrocket]

Originally posted by vcchlw
Well, possibility rite?But who knows?

I would pick Kidd of course. Kidd can make every player in his team play better.

enough said. i'll take kidd over francis in a blink.

[LiTtLeY1521]

YES.

But it won't help. Jason Kidd won't have anymore Luscious Harris or Richard Jefferson or Rodney Rodgers or Kerry Kittles. :( They would go to ruins....Stephon Marbury returns.

IT WOULD HELP A LITTLE. But not much...not with James Posey and Eddie Griffin. But Jason Kidd and James Posey would be pretty good on fast breaks.... :(

[hamachi]

Originally posted by DreamWeaver
Let's assume that we could get Kidd for Francis. How would Kidd's presence make us a better team if Rudy still runs the same motion-less offense? We need an overhaul.

Besides, I think SF has all the tools to turn this Rox team into a championship team. I am willing to give him a few more seasons.

Well, Kidd's presence would make us a better team. On a team with a better offensive system, with a coach who is more of a teacher and a disciplinarian, Francis probably would have much more success -- both compared to how he's doing with the Rockets now, and compared to how Kidd is doing with the Nets.

Francis and Rudy aren't a good fit for one another. Francis needs someone who is a teacher and a strong-willed coach, with a strong vision for an offensive system. And to have more success, Rudy needs someone who is more of a true playmaker. Hakeem was the exception, a completely dominant player at a time when defenses were less prepared for the basic inside-outside game, and/or didn't have tools like the zone.

The thing is, as much as Kidd could be much more suited for success on a Rudy-coached team than Francis, I don't see how he'd want to come here. He's complaining about a lack of "structure" and "coaching" from a Nets team where Scott has installed a great Princeton-style offense. Rudy doesn't seem to provide the structure and coaching he'd want. And so in the end you're right -- while I say Kidd would make us better, with our system he'd only make us marginally better, as much as I'd love to have him here.

So the sad thing is, as much as I'd personally rather see Francis get the hell out of here, while retaining Rudy (and while hoping to acquire a stud playmaker), it seems like the best thing is to lose Rudy -- regardless of whether Francis remains our point guard or not.

The only way I can see us getting better without losing Rudy is what's been said before: we get some stud assistant coach, with real X's and O's skill, and the ability to implement and teach an offensive system. If that's the case, we can probably have success even if Francis remains our point guard.

[gr8-1]

Yes, I would. And everyone knows how much I love Steve. I think Kidd would bring a "calm" to this team. However, if he's leaving anyway, would they take Cuttino instead of Steve? Kidd at pg, Steve at sg?

If it were Kidd for Steve, both teams would make the playoffs. Wonder if Thorn would want a player who is similar to Marbury though?



Hamachi, what kind of offense does Rudy run, exactly?

[vcchlw]

Originally posted by rvpals
If we want a championship in 2 years or less, we will take JKidd.

If we want a championship in 4 years or more, we stay with Franchise if Franchise becomes a better player.

If Francis continue to play like this, he can never get a championship, not even close. Face it, Francis is a kind of player that can make good stats in a game but cannot lead the team. He is kind of Dominique Wilkins guy.

For Francis, as a PG, he is not as good as Stockton, Payton and Kidd, he doesn't have the talent to pass and make plays; as a SG, he is not as good as AI, Kobe or T-Mac, using his scoring ability to lead the team.

To win a championship, at least we should have a true PG and a true SG, not the one in between.

[Ying Yang]

:) Kidd will be fantastic. just wish kidd is few years younger though.
scoring selfish point gurad does not mix well with big man game, it does not help to develope big man either.
Rocket got Sleepy Floyd in Hakeem' era, they end up trade him away and later on won 2 championships with kenny Smith, a passing point guard and a great outside shooter.
that is what Rocket needs

[Rockets-R-Us]

The number of players that I would trade Francis for is growing on an almost game by game basis and Kidd is right at the top of that list.

However, (and if someone mentioned this already then I apologize) the article in the beginning of the thread said that Kidd is frustrated because he is frequently looking over to the bench only to see that his coach has nothing to offer him.

Can you IMAGINE how Jason would feel if he had to look at Rudy holding his hands on his head and looking clueless like he does throughout many of the Rockets games???

No way would Jason come here if he has a chance to play for a real coach and a perennial MVP candidate in Duncan!!

But, I'd still trade for him if given the chance!!

[hamachi]

Originally posted by gr8-1
Hamachi, what kind of offense does Rudy run, exactly?

Everyone knows we run a 5-man offense.

Seriously though, you're asking the wrong guy. There are other people here who could answer this question better, without resorting to the obvious quip that we don't run any kind of offense at all. So what exactly is Rudy trying to implement?

gr8-1, your question and the original question of trading Francis for Kidd really make me realize that solving our problems isn't a simple matter of switching out Francis for a guy with brains, savvy, BB/PG IQ, or whatever. Francis deserves criticsm, but would we really be a contender with an archetype of a PG like Kidd, given our current system (or lack thereof)?

And assuming Francis hangs around -- the likely scenario -- would he really have success if we had a coaching staff that implemented a motion offense like the Nets', where he still had to make reads, react, and adjust properly?

It seems like Francis needs an offense with lots of set plays, one that creates other options besides drawing the double team and kicking it out, but at the same time doesn't require a lot of decision-making on his part.

These things show just how hard it is to win a championship. It takes the right combination of athletic talent, smarts, a system that emphasizes your personnel's strengths and masks their weaknesses, a coaching staff that matches up well with the players, and for all this to come together at the right time in the players' development curves -- when they've matured mentally, but before they've deteriorated too much physically.

Francis may just be one of those guys who may never win a championship, regardless of his athletic ability. And Rudy, while he's had a great run, his time may have passed. Hell, look at the once mighty Pat Riley.

But I'm sure lots of people once had the same prognosis for Hakeem before things turned around for him and the Rockets. Of course, he had the benefit of rediscovering his faith, and getting a coaching change. I wonder what's more likely -- Steve getting born again, or the Rockets getting a new coach again...

[bottlerocket]

I think the question should be "Why would they trade Kidd for Franchise?"

BottleRocket

[Mr. Clutch]

Originally posted by bottlerocket
I think the question should be "Why would they trade Kidd for Franchise?"

BottleRocket

If Kidd is going to leave anyways they might as well get something for him.