Astros 3rd baseman for next year

[Buck Turgidson]

Reports out of St. Louis say the Cards & Rolen have agreed to a 8-year $90M contract, the richest contract in Cards history. This certainly escalates the market value of Kent & Alfonzo, whom the Stros should be interested in. Heard Daryl Hamilton on 610 this morning discussing a conversation he recently had with Kent, who was a teammate for several seasons with the Mets & Giants. A couple of very interesting points:
1. Kent lives on his ranch outside of Austin in the offseason, and would love to play close to home;
2. Kent is kind of sick of the whole "Barry Bonds Show" media onslaught over the last 2 seasons;
3. He's still a little bitter at Brian Sabean over comments the SF GM made after Kent's dubious injury in spring training;
4. Kent would have no problems with a position change to 3rd.

He'll turn 35 in March, think he'd sign for 4-yr $40M? 3-4-5-6 of Bagwell-Berkman-Kent-Lane would look pretty sweet next year.

[MadMax]

jeff kent is a very good ballplayer

i don't like jeff kent very much

[Raven Lunatic]

Yeah, I would have serious concerns as to what his attitude might do to our clubhouse atmosphere. But if didn't cause any problems, that would be a great pickup.

[ArtV]

I think Barry (who I like as a ballplayer) had a lot to do with Kent's attitude. While maybe Kent could have remained silent like the other players, the Astros don't have a Barry-type player on the team. IMO, I don't think he'd be a disruption on this team. Will DM open up his wallet for him - I doubt it.

[gr8-1]

I like Kent, but can he play 3rd? Why was Hamilton on 610?

[MadMax]

Originally posted by gr8-1
I like Kent, but can he play 3rd? Why was Hamilton on 610?


Hamilton has a regular segment on the morning show

[Trader_Jorge]

Jeff Kent comes with a lot of character baggage as well. Outside of the ongoing dispute with Barry Bonds, there were a lot of rumurs that Kent was 'less-than-forthright' about his offseason injury. He has a clause in his contracts that says he can't ride motorcycles and many were speculating that his injury was the result of a motorcycle crash...

Kent has significantly benefitted from the protection that Barry Bonds has provided him in the lineup, as well as the RBI opportunities that Bonds provided (high OBP) when he batted ahead of Kent. You could argue that his numbers are artificially inflated. You could also argue (quite convincingly) that it doesn't make sense to invest $40mm in a player that is 35 years old.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
You could also argue (quite convincingly) that it doesn't make sense to invest $40mm in a player that is 35 years old.


and i WOULD argue that! i agree...I think it's more likely that Jeff has seen his best days than it is that he'll ever actually prove worthy of the money he's asking for.

[rezdawg]

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
Kent has significantly benefitted from the protection that Barry Bonds has provided him in the lineup, as well as the RBI opportunities that Bonds provided (high OBP) when he batted ahead of Kent. You could argue that his numbers are artificially inflated. You could also argue (quite convincingly) that it doesn't make sense to invest $40mm in a player that is 35 years old.

Kent bats ahead of Bonds right now.

Berkman provides great protection, so Kent can take advantage of that too.

Kent may be 35, but he has had one of the best years of his career this year. To add to it, he has played in less games.

[kidrock8]

Kent=overrated

Kent also shows his true colors, if he's jealous or whatever of the attention given to Bonds. Will this mean that he'll hate Oswalt or Berkman?

Kent is a grade-A jerk, and is even more selfish than Steve Francis.

:eek:

[DVauthrin]

Jeff Kent overrated????

Do you even watch baseball, Kidrock?

I'm sorry, but a 2nd baseman who has an OPS of almost 1000 and consistently hits 30 hrs and drives in 100 rbis while batting .300, in the best pitchers park in the league is not overrated.

Pitchers have two guys to avoid on the Giants: Kent and Bonds, so the argument that they pitch to him simply because of Barry(who I love as a player) may have been true a few years back, but it isn't now.


Also, I don't think his attitude is as bad as some in this thread believe. Barry Bonds has even come out recently and said he would be very pissed off if SF lost Kent, so that feud is way overblown.

He did screw up on the motorcycle thing, but who really cares? Are athletes not allowed to be human? Because I guarantee all of us here have done stupid things that we really regretted or tried to lie about.

I would be all for Signing Kent if he wouldnt mind playing 3b. But personally I can't see the Giants letting him leave unless he chooses to himself.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by DVauthrin


I'm sorry, but a 2nd baseman who has an OPS of almost 1000 and consistently hits 30 hrs and drives in 100 rbis while batting .300, in the best pitchers park in the league is not overrated.




is PacBell regarded as a pitchers' park? i didn't realize that...i'm not being sarcastic, either...

[dc sports]

What about Mark Loretta? He's been outstanding here, stated he wants to stay. Est on his salary is $5mil. He also has the advantage of being able to play any infield position, including short stop.

Granted, Loretta may not be in the same league as Kent, but he's a good, solid player, and for his est. $5 mil, would leave money for shoring up the outfield & rotation.

[Raven Lunatic]

Originally posted by dc sports
What about Mark Loretta? He's been outstanding here, stated he wants to stay. Est on his salary is $5mil. He also has the advantage of being able to play any infield position, including short stop.

Granted, Loretta may not be in the same league as Kent, but he's a good, solid player, and for his est. $5 mil, would leave money for shoring up the outfield & rotation.

I like Mark Loretta...but I have my doubts as to the kind of production he would give us long term. The man has been red hot since joining the team, but he will eventually cool off, and I don't know if a season long Mark Loretta player would be worth $5 million...

If we could get him for close to what we signed Orlando Merced and Jose Vizcaino for, I would be ectstatic.

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally posted by dc sports
What about Mark Loretta? He's been outstanding here, stated he wants to stay. Est on his salary is $5mil. He also has the advantage of being able to play any infield position, including short stop.

Granted, Loretta may not be in the same league as Kent, but he's a good, solid player, and for his est. $5 mil, would leave money for shoring up the outfield & rotation.
That can't possibly be correct. Maybe it was a $5M deal total (for say, 2-3 years) but there is not way that Loretta gets anywhere near that much per season.

[gr8-1]

Originally posted by dc sports
What about Mark Loretta? He's been outstanding here, stated he wants to stay. Est on his salary is $5mil. He also has the advantage of being able to play any infield position, including short stop.

Granted, Loretta may not be in the same league as Kent, but he's a good, solid player, and for his est. $5 mil, would leave money for shoring up the outfield & rotation.

Didn't Loretta hit .340 one year? I've always liked him and I think he may be as good as Biggio at this stage.

[Timing]

Originally posted by DVauthrin
Pitchers have two guys to avoid on the Giants: Kent and Bonds, so the argument that they pitch to him simply because of Barry(who I love as a player) may have been true a few years back, but it isn't now.

I think you have this backwards. Bonds has always been in the three hole until this season. Kent has a 1.066 OPS batting in front of Bonds and a .838 OPS batting behind him. A pretty big difference.

Also, I don't think his attitude is as bad as some in this thread believe. Barry Bonds has even come out recently and said he would be very pissed off if SF lost Kent, so that feud is way overblown.

Kent has been considered to be a difficult person even back from his days with the Mets and Blue Jays. Barry doesn't care about his teammates good or bad so I don't know what his opinion is worth when it comes to clubhouse chemistry which seems to be much more important to Biggio and Bagwell.


I dunno if the Astros should go after Kent. $10mil/year is a lot for a guy that age, especially if we're talking a 4 year contract.

[Zac D]

Originally posted by Timing
I think you have this backwards. Bonds has always been in the three hole until this season. Kent has a 1.066 OPS batting in front of Bonds and a .838 OPS batting behind him. A pretty big difference.

Both are still pretty splendiferous....

[Timing]

Actually now that I look, Blum has an .804 OPS for us this season so maybe Kent isn't quite the improvement at $10mil/year.

[Lil Francis]

Man you know our cheap ass owner won't make a play for a Big Time Free Agent. Instead he will try to get another Mark Loretta or Orlando Merced type of player. No knock on those 2 guys because they helped out alot this year but in order to compete with The D-Backs and Cards you need some more sticks in the lineup.

[DVauthrin]

I have followed the Giants for awhile as I love watching Bonds play. Kent was hitting in the .900 plus OPS as the 4th hitter as well, and Geoff Blum is a good UTILITY player, but not a guy you want starting at a corner inflelder.

If we had the opportunity to get a player as good as him I would jump on it. Personally, I would rather persue maddux, but from all accounts I have not heard Kent being a troublemaker in Cleve, then NY, then SF(except for motorcycle gate)

[BigM]

the age thing scares me away for a contract that size. there's no way kent's overrated but by the time that contract is up i think we'll be paying for an average player. anyways i was hoping to pick up bartolo colon. talk about a 1-2-3 punch. might be out of our price range though.

[kidrock8]

Originally posted by DVauthrin
Jeff Kent overrated????

Do you even watch baseball, Kidrock?

I'm sorry, but a 2nd baseman who has an OPS of almost 1000 and consistently hits 30 hrs and drives in 100 rbis while batting .300, in the best pitchers park in the league is not overrated.

Pitchers have two guys to avoid on the Giants: Kent and Bonds, so the argument that they pitch to him simply because of Barry(who I love as a player) may have been true a few years back, but it isn't now.


Also, I don't think his attitude is as bad as some in this thread believe. Barry Bonds has even come out recently and said he would be very pissed off if SF lost Kent, so that feud is way overblown.

He did screw up on the motorcycle thing, but who really cares? Are athletes not allowed to be human? Because I guarantee all of us here have done stupid things that we really regretted or tried to lie about.

I would be all for Signing Kent if he wouldnt mind playing 3b. But personally I can't see the Giants letting him leave unless he chooses to himself.

I saw that quote too. What Bonds also said, is that if Kent left, Bonds wants the Giants to bring in a player of equal or better. Because he said that, I think Bonds would rather have Kent around, just because he knows the Giants need them.

And yes, Kent is overrated. He sucked last year. He sucked this year, until Baker (another overrated manager) finally put Kent in front of Bonds.

Anyone can hit well in front of Bonds. Ask Rich Aurillia.

[rezdawg]

Originally posted by kidrock8
And yes, Kent is overrated. He sucked last year. He sucked this year, until Baker (another overrated manager) finally put Kent in front of Bonds.


Yeah, Kent sucks. :confused:

So, to solve this problem, we should stick Kent in front of Berkman. If he could put up the same numbers (at MMP) then we've added a gem to our lineup.

[lpbman]

I'm not sure Kent has the arm to play 3rd

the last thing the Astros need is another defensive liability

[The Real Shady]

We won't get Evil Kent Evil. The top priority for next year is getting a legit speedy leadoff CF. The Astros can live with a Blum/Loretta platoon at third.

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally posted by kidrock8
And yes, Kent is overrated. He sucked last year. He sucked this year, until Baker (another overrated manager) finally put Kent in front of Bonds.

2000
batting 3rd: 19 ABs
batting 4th: 566 ABs, 39 2B, 32 HR, 120 RBI, 86 BB, 106 K, .332 Avg, .422 OPB, .595 SLG

2001
batting 3rd: 43 ABs
batting 4th: 550 ABs, 44 2B, 22 HR, 100 RBI, 56 BB, 84 K, .302 Avg, .368 OBP, .524 SLG

2002
batting 3rd: 271 ABs, 22 2B, 22HR, 55 RBI, 22 BB, 39 K, .332 Avg, .385 OBP, .664 SLG
battin 4th: 343 ABs, 19 2B, 15 HR, 53 RBI, 29 BB, 60 K, .297 Avg, .354 OBP, .484 SLG

His OPS of .838 in the 4-hole would be the 5th highest in MLB for 3rd basemen with 200+ ABs at the position.

He's produced in the past hitting behind Bonds, and I would surmise that his lower production in the 4-hole this year reflects more on him trying too hard to drive in runs (check the BB:K ratio, out of line compared to his prior 2 seasons) as a result of the complete absence of another run producer behind him in the lineup. During most of the time Kent hit 4th, Reggie Sanders (the 5th hitter at the time) hit a whopping .239 with 4 HRs in 184 ABs.

The more I think about it, a 4 year deal may be too much. If Houston could get him for 3-yr, $30+M with a club option for a 4th year, I'd do that deal in a heartbeat.

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally posted by The Real Shady
We won't get Evil Kent Evil. The top priority for next year is getting a legit speedy leadoff CF. The Astros can live with a Blum/Loretta platoon at third.
Evil Kent Evil, I like that.

Legit speedy leadoff CF's don't exist. Know how many players in MLB had 270+ ABs at CF & had an OBP of .370+? 3 - Berkman, Edmonds & Bernie Williams. Not exactly leadoff material. Randy Winn had a nice year (.360 OBP), but I'm skeptical of players who have a breakout year at age 28 (ala Blum). Juan Pierre had an astounding .320 OBP in the best hitters park in the history of baseball. Who exactly should we go get? If Shannon Stewart could play CF (arm strength has always been the question, that's why he's spent most of his career in LF) he would be perfect; hell, I'd play him in LF & let Lance stay in center if the Stros could get him.

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally posted by lpbman
I'm not sure Kent has the arm to play 3rd

the last thing the Astros need is another defensive liability
It's not like he's got a Biggio-esque arm at 2nd. Good hand and quick feet are more important at 3rd than a strong arm. Kent would be ok, I think.

[MadMax]

kidrock -- why do you think Dusty Baker is overrated?

[gr8-1]

Originally posted by Buck Turgidson
[B]It's not like he's got a Biggio-esque arm at 2nd.

Speaking of overrated. Just kidding, don't start flaming me. I'm kinda surprised that Kent's best year offensively surpasses Biggio's though.

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally posted by gr8-1
Speaking of overrated. Just kidding, don't start flaming me. I'm kinda surprised that Kent's best year offensively surpasses Biggio's though.
I'm not so sure Kent's bests Biggio in that regard. They were different types of offensive players, asked to do different things. Biggio could've driven in 120+ runs with no problem if he hit 3rd/4th during his prime.

I'm not gonna flame you for that. Biggio's been overrated defensively for quite some time. No range + weak arm = Gold Glove? Only when you hit like he did. I love Biggio as a player, but he was above-average defensively in his prime, nowhere near great.

[Raven Lunatic]

Originally posted by Buck Turgidson

I'm not gonna flame you for that. Biggio's been overrated defensively for quite some time. No range + weak arm = Gold Glove? Only when you hit like he did. I love Biggio as a player, but he was above-average defensively in his prime, nowhere near great.

While I agree that his arm is average, up until he started slowing down due to his recent knee problems, I always felt Biggio had great range at 2B.

[DVauthrin]

MadMax,

PacBell allowed the least number of runs in 2001 in the NL, and this year it is 2nd. It is a very severe pitchers park esp at night.

Kidrock,

You keep picking poor examples. Before Aurilia's career year last year, he had hit .280-290 with 20 plus homeruns for the past 3 or 4 years. Did Bonds help make Kent and Aurilia into great stars early on in SF, yes. But that does not mean it holds true now.

As far as Aurilia sucking this year, it has mostly to do with his elbow trouble this year which screwed up his swing. Next year, I would venture he returns to his typical .280-290 20 hr, 70 rbi self.

If the Giants get a real leadoff men(keep lofton) I would hope they put Aurilia in the 5th spot, because he should be focused on driving in runs more than scoring them as it fits his style better.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by DVauthrin
MadMax,

PacBell allowed the least number of runs in 2001 in the NL, and this year it is 2nd. It is a very severe pitchers park esp at night.



wow..thanks for the info...that's interesting...i guess i never thought of it as favoring either side...i think of detroit as being a pitchers' park...but i never really thought about SF being that way. seems to give even more credence to what barry has been able to do there the last 2 seasons.

[Oski2005]

Originally posted by lpbman
I'm not sure Kent has the arm to play 3rd

the last thing the Astros need is another defensive liability

Defensive liability??? The Stros' had the best defense in the National League this year. You're probably picking on Lugo with that quote. Well he sure as hell wasn't a liability this year with a .976 fielding pct. and only 8 errors. I know he played less than 90 games this year, but that still pust him on track for about 14 to 15 errors for a whole season. Defense was not this teams problem this season, it was offense. Almost everybody on the team had a down year in important offensive categories.

[gr8-1]

oski, they may have been #1, but I take that with a grain of salt, ala the Bordick streak. We have arguably the slowest OF in the majors. They don't get to as many balls, thus I assume they would commit fewer errors.

Kent at 3rd works for me.

[Major]

Defensive liability??? The Stros' had the best defense in the National League this year. You're probably picking on Lugo with that quote. Well he sure as hell wasn't a liability this year with a .976 fielding pct. and only 8 errors. I know he played less than 90 games this year, but that still pust him on track for about 14 to 15 errors for a whole season. Defense was not this teams problem this season, it was offense. Almost everybody on the team had a down year in important offensive categories.

Not true. As gr-1 mentioned, yes, they fielded every ball they got to. The problem was that they didn't get to anything. They were one of the worst teams defensively in terms of Range Factor and Zone Rating (#10 and #13 respectively). Our left fielders were combined the worst -- by far -- in MLB. CF, RF, 2nd, and 1st were all below-average. Catcher was the only position we were really good at -- 3rb, SS were basically average.

Unfortunately, we can't really improve at 2nd or 1st, but the outfield can definitely be remedied by adding one true CFer and moving Ward or Hidalgo.

[gr8-1]

Below average at first huh? Has to be the injury. Worrell always says that Bags is an underrated defensive player, but I've always disagreed. He's on the short side, and I'm guessing guys like Helton got to more balls. I think Bags is a slightly above average 1B at best.

[Major]

Below average at first huh? Has to be the injury. Worrell always says that Bags is an underrated defensive player, but I've always disagreed. He's on the short side, and I'm guessing guys like Helton got to more balls. I think Bags is a slightly above average 1B at best.

Healthy, I agree. I'm just talking this year -- he was terrible. I remember one foul popup where he had to toss the ball to Biggio (who was standing next to him) to get it back to the infield to make sure the guy at 3rd didn't tag up. His inability to throw was a weakness and cost us some double-plays and stuff.

He does have decent range, but I think age is slowing him a bit. He's still the most aggressive 1B on things like bunts and stuff, though. Hopefully, he'll be better next year.

[Groogrux]

How many runs do you think that cost us this year though? I'm guessing less than 5, if any.

[Major]

How many runs do you think that cost us this year though? I'm guessing less than 5, if any.

How many runs did what cost us? Bagwell? or the whole defense?

Bagwell alone - not many. 1st Base defense isn't really a big deal. The outfield defense - I bet we gave up a hell of a lot more runs than we would have otherwise.

[Refman]

Originally posted by Major
Bagwell alone - not many. 1st Base defense isn't really a big deal.
First base defense is a HUGE deal. How many more runs would the Astros have given up EVERY year Bags has been here if Bags wasn't so good at digging thrown balls out of the dirt?

[Major]

First base defense is a HUGE deal. How many more runs would the Astros have given up EVERY year Bags has been here if Bags wasn't so good at digging thrown balls out of the dirt?

I was more referring to his range and throwing abilities. Yeah, he has saved a number of errors for other players over his career, although other first baseman (outside of the really bad ones) seem to do it just as much. I don't really know whether he's awesome at it or we just see him do it so much because he's our home team's 1B.

[Groogrux]

I was talking about first base...I don't think Bagwell was terrible at all this year.

[Major]

I was talking about first base...I don't think Bagwell was terrible at all this year.

I was actually referring to stats for those "below average" rankings. Our 1Bmen were 12th in both Range Factor and Zone Rating in the NL (out of 16 teams). I don't really know how to measure 1st base defense, personally. He looked fine to me except for his throwing abilities.