Stros are dead.

[DaDakota]

They had a good comeback, but it was not enough.

Maybe if Miller, and Roy O, and Carlos were healthy all year they could have made a run.

6 1/2 games is WAY to much to make up, and they can only blame themselves as their poor record against lesser teams is the main catalyst as to why they are going to finish 2nd.

Oh, well, next year looks bright, as long as Jason Lane is starting and not Richard Hi(waste)O.

DaDakota

[Major]

Pretty much at this point the only way is to go 6-1 or 7-0 vs. the Cards, which is not all that likely. :(

Oh well, football season is here. :)

[rezdawg]

5 1/2 behind the wild card leaders. Our last 3 games are against the Giants too. Its pretty much over, but there is a teeny tiny whiny little window still open.

[The Cat]

Originally posted by DaDakota
They had a good comeback, but it was not enough.

Maybe if Miller, and Roy O, and Carlos were healthy all year they could have made a run.

6 1/2 games is WAY to much to make up, and they can only blame themselves as their poor record against lesser teams is the main catalyst as to why they are going to finish 2nd.

Oh, well, next year looks bright, as long as Jason Lane is starting and not Richard Hi(waste)O.

DaDakota

STL was down 5.5 games with less than two weeks to go last year, and had a 1 game lead going into the final day. Remember how they made up the ground? It was all the head to head matchups with the Astros. The pressure is on the Astros to play great against the Cardinals, but they are not dead yet.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally posted by rezdawg
5 1/2 behind the wild card leaders. Our last 3 games are against the Giants too. Its pretty much over, but there is a teeny tiny whiny little window still open.

I like the positive thinking but the LA would have to also fold. It will be extremely difficult to make up the ground on two team.

[Refman]

Originally posted by The Cat
STL was down 5.5 games with less than two weeks to go last year, and had a 1 game lead going into the final day. Remember how they made up the ground? It was all the head to head matchups with the Astros. The pressure is on the Astros to play great against the Cardinals, but they are not dead yet.
I hate to say it, but they're dead. They do not have those kinds of heroics in them at this point. I'm usually the LAST guy to say they're dead. There have been times I have waited for them to be mathematically eliminated before admitting it...and they were 4 or 5 games out then.

So now we get to pull out the Astros mantra...wait til next year. :(

[Major]

STL was down 5.5 games with less than two weeks to go last year, and had a 1 game lead going into the final day. Remember how they made up the ground? It was all the head to head matchups with the Astros. The pressure is on the Astros to play great against the Cardinals, but they are not dead yet.

The Cards did it through a ridiculous collapse (one of the worst in MLB history) on the part of the Astros. We actually went 3-3 with the Cardinals post 9/11, so they made up no ground there. However we went on a 6 game losing streak during the last two weeks against Chicago and San Fran - it would have been one of the largest collapses in history had we not pulled it out winning 2 of 3 to close the season against STL.

Is it possible for the Astros? Absolutely, but it's going to take a huge collapse down the stretch by the Cards.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/schedule?team=hou&date=20010711

That's how we closed the season last year.

[Holden]

http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40948

holden you are like freaking nostradomas or something.

thanks holden. i know.

no problem.

:(

[franchise?..NOT]

All over boys and girls!

Astros finish up 17 and 0 (fat chance)
Cards finish 8 and 9 - Astros 1/2 games out!
Giants finish 11 and 6 - Astros 1/2 games out!

Time to trade the the two B's and let's get an exciting young team on the field like the B's were ten years ago and build a team to go with the young pitching that we have. Trade Biggio and Bags and Hidalgo and get some young talent which suddenly our minors no longer seem to have and move on.

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally posted by franchise?..NOT
Trade Biggio and Bags
Come back from fantasy land, my man, reality is calling you.

[Refman]

Originally posted by franchise?..NOT
All over boys and girls!

Astros finish up 17 and 0 (fat chance)
Cards finish 8 and 9 - Astros 1/2 games out!
Giants finish 11 and 6 - Astros 1/2 games out!

Time to trade the the two B's and let's get an exciting young team on the field like the B's were ten years ago and build a team to go with the young pitching that we have. Trade Biggio and Bags and Hidalgo and get some young talent which suddenly our minors no longer seem to have and move on.
Hi, I'm reality...have we met?

[gr8-1]

Biggio and Bags are untradeable. I think they need to shore up the left side of the infield. Is Blum gonna be the everyday guy? I don't think so. Are they gonna give Everett another chance at SS? I could live with Lugo. This may be a bit out of the blue, but why not keep Loretta? I like him.

Pitching is fine, even if/when Gordon leaves.


Astros realistic chances this year were dashed when Hunter was tagged out at 3rd. Istill have no idea what he was thinking.

Cards seem less likely to collapse like we did last year.

[The Real Shady]

Face it the Astros are really not all that talented this year. They need to pull off the trade to land Hampton and Pierre from the Rockies. This would definately fix our most glaring need on offense of a speedy CF, and it wouldn't hurt to get another good veteran pitcher on the staff. Hampton can turn it around too just look at the track record of Kile (RIP) and Astacio after leaving Coors.

[Major]

Hampton can turn it around too just look at the track record of Kile (RIP) and Astacio after leaving Coors.

Can and Will are two very, very different things. If he doesn't, you just wasted $100,000,000.

[Major]

Biggio and Bags are untradeable. I think they need to shore up the left side of the infield. Is Blum gonna be the everyday guy? I don't think so. Are they gonna give Everett another chance at SS? I could live with Lugo. This may be a bit out of the blue, but why not keep Loretta? I like him.



I think Blum may have earned himself a starting job in Houston. He's not spectacular, certainly, but with the lack of good 3B's in the NL, he's fine. I think Lugo is the SS, with Loretta and Viz as your all-position backup infielders.

I think we have to move Ward, Hidalgo or both for some new, faster outfielders - preferably including one who can play centerfield. Merced backs up all those spots.

Ausmus, Biggio, and Bagwell I think are set.

[Raven Lunatic]

I agree with everything Major said. If we can find a decent hitting, speedy CFer, I would go ahead and make that trade just to see how it works. We might end up giving up on a perennial All Star (Ward or Hidalgo), but sometimes you have to take a chance.

In regards to third base, let's not forget that Morgan Ensberg is still waiting in the wings of the minors. The guy has had great numbers in the Astros farm system, so there is no reason to think he won't ever be able to come up and take that starting job. I look for him to do very well in spring training next season now that he has a bit of seasoning in the majors.

[The Real Shady]

Can and Will are two very, very different things. If he doesn't, you just wasted $100,000,000.

How about likely.

Good article I just read from ESPN:

Time and money could be running out on Astros

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Phil Rogers
Special to ESPN.com


Just a couple of lousy wins.

Hard to believe, but that's all the Houston Astros have to show for four trips into the playoffs behind Jeff Bagwell and Craig Biggio. They've had a combined winning percentage of .551 over the last six regular seasons, but figure to be only a footnote in history because of a 2-12 postseason record during that stretch.

And time is running out.

The Central Showdown
The probable pitching matchups for the four-game series between the Cardinals and Astros, which begins on Thursday in Houston:

Thursday: Chuck Finley (9-15, 4.32) vs. Carlos Hernandez (7-5, 4.50)
Friday: Jason Simontacchi (10-5, 4.15) vs. Roy Oswalt (19-6, 2.84)
Saturday: Woody Williams (8-4, 2.55) vs. Peter Munro (5-3, 2.97)
Sunday: Matt Morris (16-7, 3.25) vs. Wade Miller (13-3, 3.58)


Biggio is 36 and moving like a man suffering from overexposure to Astroturf. Bagwell is 34 and is playing in pain because of an injured shoulder that can be repaired only with the riskiest of surgeries. They know there won't be many more chances to make up for lost time. That's why the Astros will take such a feeling of desperation into this weekend's four-game series against St. Louis.

Houston is 6½ games behind the Cardinals. The Astros plays the Cardinals seven times in the next 11 days and can't afford to win any fewer than five of those games.

This is not exactly 1998 all over again. That was the year the Astros were rolling toward 102 wins and carrying a not-so-secret weapon into October. His name, of course, was Randy Johnson.

Yet San Diego's Kevin Brown beat the Big Unit 2-1 in Game 1 of the Division Series at the Astrodome, Johnson lost again in Game 4 and the Astros still haven't recovered their mojo. This isn't likely to be the year, not given the 33-43 start they suffered as the lineup adjusted to the absence of Moises Alou and 2001 savior Vinny Castilla. Gone are the years when Bagwell and Biggio could blithely count on getting 'em next time around.

In Roy Oswalt and Wade Miller (a combined 19-1 with a 2.13 ERA in 24 starts since the All-Star break), the Astros may have the best combination of young starters in the majors. Astros general manager Gerry Hunsicker, highly regarded assistant Tim Purpura and a strong scouting staff do a good job of keeping talent in the pipeline. But this franchise faces a severe economic challenge in the immediate future.

Owner Drayton McLane plans to keep the 2003 budget about where it was in 2002. At about $63.5 million, the Astros' payroll was the third largest in the National League Central, where nobody is likely to outspend St. Louis or the Cubs in this decade. But some close to the franchise fret that management won't be able to sustain the status quo given Houston's shattered economy and the fight for advertising dollars.

When Hunsicker had the resources to pull off the Johnson trade, the Astros owned the sports marketplace. But that has changed since the NFL returned to town. Forget the civic tumult about the Houston Texans' victory over the Cowboys on Sunday night. The most sobering day for McLane and his salesmen came a month earlier, when a Texans practice at Reliant Stadium outdrew an Astros game at the three-year-old jewel now known as Minute Maid Park.


Jeff Bagwell, left, and Craig Biggio have been teammates in Houston for 12 years.


Oh yeah. Don't forget the NBA's Houston Rockets are about to welcome Yao Ming to town. And did we mention that Biggio and Bagwell are getting older?

Like Barry Bonds, the Killer Bees deserve another chance in October. They've played the game the right way for too long to go out with a combined .150 batting average and only five RBI in 100 playoff at-bats. But with the Cardinals in the distance and both Los Angeles and San Francisco 5½ games ahead in the wild-card race, this could be the last gasp.

When this season is over, Hunsicker will go in search of a leadoff hitter (Houston leadoff hitters have a .316 on-base percentage, 13 stolen bases, 116 strikeouts and 41 walks), with his first preference being for one who plays center field. He'd also like to add a veteran starting pitcher, with the backup plan being to sign Shane Reynolds, who has been sidelined since undergoing back surgery in mid-June, to a contract with a low base salary and hope his back can hold up.

Hunsicker will have a little money to play with, as Reynolds and Dave Mlicki were earning almost $14 million between them this season. But he's obligated to pay Richard Hidalgo (.235-15-48) $22 million over the next two years. Lance Berkman is due his first big deal, as is set-up wizard Octavio Dotel. Miller and Oswalt won't be far behind them, as well.

Getting all these parts to fit will be a baseball decision for Hunsicker. It wasn't that way when the Biggio and Bagwell deals came together.

For McLane, Biggio and Bagwell have almost become family. He wasn't letting them go anywhere, even if it took a combined $118 million to keep them around.

But 2003 is the last year of the four-year, $33-million deal McLane gave Biggio before the 2000 season. It could also be his last in Houston, if not baseball.

Bagwell, who needs six more RBI for his seventh straight 100-RBI season, is signed through '06 with an option for '07. In the last two years of the deal, Bagwell will make as much as he and Biggio combined to earn this season.

Simply put, the Astros are hoping for the best, both with Bagwell's shoulder and the Houston economy.

Phil Rogers is the national baseball writer for the Chicago Tribune, which has a web site at www.chicagosports.com.

[Raven Lunatic]

Hasn't Bagwell's shoulder already been repaired? They make it sound like he has yet to have surgery on it.

[Buck Turgidson]

Rogers is a moron. "Time is running out." For what, exactly? The Biggio era in Houston? That's actually a good thing, given his performance vs. salary this year. As much as I've loved watching his entire career here, it's time for him to go. Hopefully he has a good year next year, it'd be a shame to see him go out with numbers similar to this year's.

Bagwell's health will be better next year than this one. "Only the riskiest of surgeries"? WTF is that? He may need a little arthroscopic clean-up job done on the shoulder, but he knew, and announced in spring training, that his shoulder would take an entire year & another offseason to recover from surgery (a surgery he had at least 9 months ago, good job Phil). As far as I know, he hasn't re-injured it & no other major procedures are planned.

Seriously, this may be one of the most poorly researched & fact-checked articles I've seen in awhile. Berkman's already signed an extension (3-4 years, I believe). And how exactly did losing Alou & Castilla hurt us in the first couple of months? Did he even check their numbers? He's a Cubbie beat writer, he should at least know how much time Alou missed to start the season.

[edit]

Ok, so he's a Trib columnist, not the Cubbies beat writer. He's still a moron. And I wouldn't exactly call the Houston economy "shattered". Enron hurt, but we've seen much, much, much worse within the last 2 decades.

Even the seemingly legitimate point of having to compete with the Texans and Rockets for entertainment dollars is weak. Baseball has the summer all to themselves, barely overlapping with the other 2 sports. If they stay competitive on the field, fans will be there.

[Major]

Rogers is a moron. "Time is running out." For what, exactly? The Biggio era in Houston? That's actually a good thing, given his performance vs. salary this year. As much as I've loved watching his entire career here, it's time for him to go. Hopefully he has a good year next year, it'd be a shame to see him go out with numbers similar to this year's.

I think he was referring to our chances to win during the "Bagwell & Biggio era". Kinda like how time was running out for Barkley towards the end there. In the late 90's, you knew we'd have several more opportunities, but not so anymore. I don't think he's saying time is running out for the Astros, but for those two players.

Bagwell's health will be better next year than this one. "Only the riskiest of surgeries"? WTF is that? He may need a little arthroscopic clean-up job done on the shoulder, but he knew, and announced in spring training, that his shoulder would take an entire year & another offseason to recover from surgery (a surgery he had at least 9 months ago, good job Phil). As far as I know, he hasn't re-injured it & no other major procedures are planned.

Bagwell's commented a couple of times that it hasn't healed as hoped and expected. I'm not sure about additional surgeries, but the expectation was that he would be close to 100% by about 2 months into the season.

Even the seemingly legitimate point of having to compete with the Texans and Rockets for entertainment dollars is weak. Baseball has the summer all to themselves, barely overlapping with the other 2 sports. If they stay competitive on the field, fans will be there.

I thought this was odd too, but there was mention of something similar in the Chronicle, I think. The Astros were expecting attendance for these down-the-stretch games to be a lot higher than they have been. I dunno if it's cuz of the Texans or not, though.

[Major]

How about likely.

Good article I just read from ESPN:

Where do you get <I>likely</I> out of the fact that we're running out of time <I>and money</I>? If Drayton is committed to holding payroll constant, where do you propose we get the extra $20 million a year from for Hampton?

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally posted by Major
Bagwell's commented a couple of times that it hasn't healed as hoped and expected. I'm not sure about additional surgeries, but the expectation was that he would be close to 100% by about 2 months into the season.
I remember hearing him say in spring training that it would be a problem all year; I could be wrong, though.

There's a possibility he could have it scoped during the offseason, but from what I've heard/read they'll opt for the rehab/therapy route.

[The Real Shady]

Where do you get likely out of the fact that we're running out of time and money? If Drayton is committed to holding payroll constant, where do you propose we get the extra $20 million a year from for Hampton?

Sorry, I didn't explain this very well. I meant likely that Hampton would be able to turn it around and become a good pitcher again.

Here is how we will get money for Hampton. We are getting some 14 million by getting rid of Reynolds and Miliki's contracts next year. Then if we throw Hidalgo's 6 mill per year into the trade with Hampton then thats 20 million off the payrole right there.

[Major]

I remember hearing him say in spring training that it would be a problem all year; I could be wrong, though.

I may be wrong too. I thought I had heard that he was very frustrated with the way it was healing. Maybe he thought there'd be pain but he'd still be able to throw, or something like that. I dunno.

There's a possibility he could have it scoped during the offseason, but from what I've heard/read they'll opt for the rehab/therapy route.

Yeah, I really hope he doesn't have more surgery and several months off can rehab it.

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally posted by The Real Shady
Sorry, I didn't explain this very well. I meant likely that Hampton would be able to turn it around and become a good pitcher again.

Here is how we will get money for Hampton. We are getting some 14 million by getting rid of Reynolds and Miliki's contracts next year. Then if we throw Hidalgo's 6 mill per year into the trade with Hampton then thats 20 million off the payrole right there.

The numbers work, but I think we could do more to improve the team with that $14M than adding Hampton/Pierre.

[The Cat]

1 down, 3 to go.

It's not over till it's over...

[Behad]

Originally posted by The Cat
1 down, 3 to go.

It's not over till it's over...

1 down, 6 to go. It can happen.

[Sonny]

Astros 79-68 5.5 behind in NL Central. 5 behind in the wild card.

6 - St. Louis Houston is 4-9 versus St. Louis this year (including tonight's win).
6 - Milwaukee
3 - San Fran

St. Louis 84-62 Last 10 @ home.
6 - Houston
3 - Colorado
3 - Arizona
3 - Milwaukee

San Fran 83-62

6 - San Diego
4 - Los Angeles
3 - Milwaukee
3 - Houston

*For some reason San Fran only has 16 scheduled games remaining, although they should have 17, must have a makeup game?

Los Angeles 83-62

6 - Colorado
4 - San Fran
7 - San Diego


As far as the wild card goes, I think LA has the better chance. They have 13/17 games versus sub .500 teams remaining. LA could easily go 11-6 and finish 94-68, well ahead of the Astros.

San Fran has 9/16 versus sub .500 teams.

Houston and St. Louis have 6/15 versus sub .500 teams.

So I think the Astros don't have any shot at the wild card barring a collapse by LA/San Fran. If it comes down to the last 3 games of the year, St. Louis plays Milwaukee and we play San Fran, not promising.

If Houston goes 6-1 (4-0 home, 2-1 road)versus St. Louis, 5-1 against Milwaukee (3-0 home, 2-1 road) and goes 2-1 versus San Fran then they finish 92-70.

St. Louis goes 1-6 versus Houston, 2-1 @ Colorado, 1-2 versus Arizona, and 3-1 versus Milwaukee then they finish 92-70. Houston wins the division. :) It will be very tough, but I still believe!

[BigM]

man i hope the cardinals face both of arizona's big guns. of course it won't matter unless we take care of business, good start tonight.

[Roc Paint]

The Cards still have to take the championship away from us.

It's not over just yet....

Go Stros!! :)

[bobrek]

Originally posted by Sonny
*For some reason San Fran only has 16 scheduled games remaining, although they should have 17, must have a makeup game... [/B]

SF and Atlanta have a rainout makeup. It is scheduled for the Monday after the season ends if needed. You know that Atlanta won't do anything to mess up their playoff pitching rotation in that one.

[franchise?..NOT]

Seems to be a difference of opinion on this subject.

[franchise?..NOT]

Originally posted by Buck Turgidson
Come back from fantasy land, my man, reality is calling you.

:D Reality sucks. Don't it!!!!

[Roc Paint]

The fat lady is singing.. :(

[ESource]

deader than Saddam.....

[Roc Paint]

We can only hope.

[FranchiseBlade]

I'm not all that sad about the Astros not making the playoffs.

The reason is what happened with hiring Williams. Everyone was saying that he was a real coach, and not someone who just got the job out of team loyalty etc.

But prior to this year we won the division time and time again. I know we didn't win in the playoffs, and that sucked, but I do think one thing is true.

Just because Dierker had the job didn't mean that team loyalty was the only reason. I think hiring Williams was a case of the grass is always greener.

While we didnt' make it out of round one of the playoffs, at least we made it there to give ourselves the chance.

This year we aren't even there. I wish Dierker was still our manager.

I also hope the Rockets don't take the job Rudy T. has done for granted either.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by FranchiseBlade
I'm not all that sad about the Astros not making the playoffs.

The reason is what happened with hiring Williams. Everyone was saying that he was a real coach, and not someone who just got the job out of team loyalty etc.

But prior to this year we won the division time and time again. I know we didn't win in the playoffs, and that sucked, but I do think one thing is true.

Just because Dierker had the job didn't mean that team loyalty was the only reason. I think hiring Williams was a case of the grass is always greener.

While we didnt' make it out of round one of the playoffs, at least we made it there to give ourselves the chance.

This year we aren't even there. I wish Dierker was still our manager.

I also hope the Rockets don't take the job Rudy T. has done for granted either.

I don't think Hidalgo or Ward would have performed any better under Dierker than they did this year under Williams...

I don't think they would have discovered a real leadoff hitter on this time if Dierker were still manager...

I don't think the change in managers had anything at all to do with the Astros not making the playoffs...

[FranchiseBlade]

Originally posted by MadMax
I don't think Hidalgo or Ward would have performed any better under Dierker than they did this year under Williams...

I don't think they would have discovered a real leadoff hitter on this time if Dierker were still manager...

I don't think the change in managers had anything at all to do with the Astros not making the playoffs...

I agree with a good deal of what your saying, just not that the team wouldn't have performed better under Dierker.

But even our guys that were normally solid had off years this season. People weren't hitting as well they did under Dierker.

I'm also not trying to blame all the problems on the team on Williams, but I don't think they problem the team had to begin with was Dierker. I think the team might have done better under Dierker, because he knew the team better. He had experience working with these guys. Someone who wins the division time and time again, is doing something right.

If it's a case of two equals I say stick with loyalty. I know that hindsight is 20/20 and all that. So I don't want to sound like it's a big blame game. But

[Refman]

It is often that a team will not do well the year after a new coach/manager is hired. Sometimes you take a step back to later take 3 steps forward.

[ROXRAN]

The Stros are dead, long live the Stros!