ClutchFans - Carr or Vick?

Htownhero

09-10-2002, 07:33 PM

I am, as some of you know, a HUGE Atlanta fan. I watched both games and came away impressed with both qb's. If I has to choose one though, it would be Vick. While impressed with Carrs maturity and ability to read an NFL defense, I think Vick has shown that he can too. The difference maker is that speed and agility, something Carr will never have. Make no mistake though, Carr will be an very good qb in a few years (hell he may already be) but I don't think he'll ever be as dangerous and hard to defend than Vick.

rezdawg

09-10-2002, 07:33 PM

These discussions are much too premature. Vick has the mobility edge, but Carr has the accuracy to go with his rifle.

Htownhero

09-10-2002, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by rezdawg
These discussions are much too premature. Vick has the mobility edge, but Carr has the accuracy to go with his rifle.

Not to start anything, but Vick's arm is stronger than Carr's.

rezdawg

09-10-2002, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by Htownhero
Not to start anything, but Vick's arm is stronger than Carr's.

I hope you are talking about throwing the deep ball here. If so you are correct. But, what I am talking about is throwing a 25 yard pass on a rope. Carr has more arm strength in this department, not to mention the accuracy.

Htownhero

09-10-2002, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by rezdawg
I hope you are talking about throwing the deep ball here. If so you are correct. But, what I am talking about is throwing a 25 yard pass on a rope. Carr has more arm strength in this department, not to mention the accuracy.

I'm not sure I understand your logic here. Are you saying that the guy who can throw the ball farther, when asked to only throw it 25 yards, somehow loses some of that strength?

rezdawg

09-10-2002, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by Htownhero
I'm not sure I understand your logic here. Are you saying that the guy who can throw the ball farther, when asked to only throw it 25 yards, somehow loses some of that strength?

There is a big difference between throwing hard and throwing deep. Just like the difference between Randy Johnson's arm and Ichiro's arm.

mfclark

09-10-2002, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by Ric
how insightful, considering... what do ya know? vick's been in the league a year longer...

And played all of what, two more complete games? Not to mention that Atlanta is running what is essentially an entirely new offensive scheme this season, in addition to their switch to the 3-4 defense.

Also, let's not forget that Carr stayed in college for all 4 years. Vick? Just 2. With one year of NFL experience, all things considering, they should be on just about an equal level right now.

Given each player's physical tools, I'd rather have Vick's arm and mobility. Not just now, but down the road as well.

The Cat

09-10-2002, 09:03 PM

While Carr is certainly not close to Michael Vick in mobility, I think it's important to note that Carr's not a Peyton Manning or Drew Bledsoe that has no speed outside of the pocket. Carr's been on the run a lot in the last couple of weeks with the injured offensive line, and he actually has underrated speed when he's scrambling out of the pocket. Like I said, he's no Vick, McNabb, or Brooks, but he can move.

It's too early to tell, but right now, I'd take Carr. Vick definitely has the mobility edge, to go along with a similarly strong arm (don't know if it's stronger though, htown), but Carr has an edge in accuracy and intangibles, IMO. I'm not just going by week 1 and the preseason. Going back to the college football days of the two, Vick has never struck me as much of a leader. He gets the job done, but he seems somewhat quiet on the sidelines and on the field.

On the other hand, there's just something about Carr that makes me believe in him. As a rookie, he already has accepted a primary leadership role for the entire team. When he's on the field, you can really see how much fun he's having. His sprints down the field after the touchdown passes to congratulate his teammates and to pump up the crowd are reminiscent of a young Brett Favre.

To me, on a smaller scale, I think it's somewhat comparable to the discussions today involving Kurt Warner and Donovan McNabb. Before anyone jumps on me, I am not saying David Carr will ever be Kurt Warner, or that Vick will ever be Donovan McNabb. I am just noting the simularities. McNabb is definitely the better runner, with probably a stronger arm. But Warner is the better leader on the field with more accuracy.

In other words, it depends on the team they play for and the system they use to determine who is better. I think to choose one or the other now has to be a gut call, and right now I would choose Carr. It's way, way too soon to know for sure, but his confidence and leadership on the field remind me of some of the greatest.

rezdawg

09-10-2002, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by mfclark
And played all of what, two more complete games? Not to mention that Atlanta is running what is essentially an entirely new offensive scheme this season, in addition to their switch to the 3-4 defense.

C'Mon man...Whether he played or not is irrelevant. There is a reason he sat out most of the year. Its a learning process whether you play or not. Just in the same way McNair was benched for much of his rookie campaign. Also, does it really matter that the Falcons switched to a 3-4 defense?

Oski2005

09-10-2002, 09:11 PM

I would go with Vick, especially if you are building a team. Carr was sacked 6 times in the Dallas game. I imagine a mobile QB like Vick might have avoided half of those. Carr has a gun, but from what I've heard about Vick, his arm is just as good if not better.

Think about this, if Vick had stayed in college and been available in the draft this year, who would the Texans have taken? It seemed like they were hell bent on drafting Vick before he came out early, so I think that settles it on who is the better choice now. Of course, who becomes the better QB down the road is another question, one that won't be answered for some time.

rezdawg

09-10-2002, 09:13 PM

Originally posted by Oski2005
Carr has a gun, but from what I've heard about Vick, his arm is just as good if not better.

LOL, From what you've heard?

Htownhero

09-10-2002, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by rezdawg
LOL, From what you've heard?

Just for the record rezdawg, how many of Vick games have you seen?

Oski2005

09-10-2002, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by rezdawg
LOL, From what you've heard?

Yeah, from what I've heard on tv and read in magazines. It's not like I've been scouting the guy.

RC Cola

09-10-2002, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by Oski2005
Carr was sacked 6 times in the Dallas game.
Anyone else would have gotten sacked the same or more because the Dallas pass rush is great! :D

Ok, we got lucky. That was the only think that I liked from the Cowboys game. I know that you guys had O-line problems, (which is an understatement.) but I think the total amount of sacks last year was around 24 last year, for the Cowboys. 6/24=1/4. That's pretty good improvement. :)

(too bad the other numbers were REALLY bad.)

Its funny that I based my opinion on a game while all of you are putting seriou thought into it. I feel really inexperienced. :(

rezdawg

09-10-2002, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by Htownhero
Just for the record rezdawg, how many of Vick games have you seen?

I have seen 2 in person at VTech.

I have seen one full pro game.

And the rest on NFL Primetime.

Htownhero

09-10-2002, 09:25 PM

Oski2005, how many Vick games have you seen?

rezdawg

09-10-2002, 09:25 PM

By the way, Mr. Mobility was sacked 4 times against the Packers.

Oski2005

09-10-2002, 09:29 PM

I've seen a few of his VTech games on tv, only a few highlights from last year. That's why I don't claim to be an authority on Vick or Carr for that matter. I'm just telling what I've heard.

Htownhero

09-10-2002, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by rezdawg
By the way, Mr. Mobility was sacked 4 times against the Packers.

BY the way, "Mr.Mobility" rushed for 72 yards Sunday, 5th best in the NFC. By the way, "Mr.Mobility" has a 8.0 average, 2nd Best in the league.

rezdawg

09-10-2002, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by Htownhero
BY the way, "Mr.Mobility" rushed for 72 yards Sunday, 5th best in the NFC. By the way, "Mr.Mobility" has a 8.0 average, 2nd Best in the league.

I was only stating that in reference to Oski pointing out that Carr was sacked 6 times.

Htownhero

09-10-2002, 09:46 PM

By the way, the passing numbers aren't close either.

Vick 15-23 209 yds 1 td 0 int 108.8 rating 10th in league
Carr 10-22 145 yds 2 td 1 int 78.8 rating 23rd in league

rezdawg

09-10-2002, 09:49 PM

Originally posted by Htownhero
By the way, the passing numbers aren't close either.

Vick 15-23 209 yds 1 td 0 int 108.8 rating 10th in league
Carr 10-22 145 yds 2 td 1 int 78.8 rating 23rd in league

Wow, you are actually basing this on one game?

Why dont you bring up Vick's rookie year stats?

rezdawg

09-10-2002, 09:55 PM

If you are bringing up one weeks worth of stats, lets look at the most important.

Carr 1-0
Vick 0-1

Htownhero

09-10-2002, 09:56 PM

You want to compare Vicks rookie year, when he was firmly entrenched as a backup, took 0 snaps with the first team, coming off of 2 college years in the VaTech offense with Carr's, where he knew he was the starter since before the draft, was a four year starter in a passing offense, taking every snap with the first team? Isn't that kinda reaching?

Htownhero

09-10-2002, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by rezdawg
If you are bringing up one weeks worth of stats, lets look at the most important.

Carr 1-0
Vick 0-1

Hmmm one team played Green bay in Green bay and the other had Dallas at home. Man, you're right....Vick's a loser!:rolleyes:

rezdawg

09-10-2002, 09:58 PM

No, its not reaching. The NFL game is completely different than the pro game. I dont care if someones played 8 years of college ball or 2 years of college ball. When they get to the pro level, its a whole new ballgame. Thats why there are busts like Ryan Leaf and surprises like Tom Brady.

Htownhero

09-10-2002, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by rezdawg
No, its not reaching. The NFL game is completely different than the pro game. I dont care if someones played 8 years of college ball or 2 years of college ball. When they get to the pro level, its a whole new ballgame. Thats why there are busts like Ryan Leaf and surprises like Tom Brady.

Just so we're clear on this, you ARE saying that staying for 4 years does nothing to help a qb prepare for the NFL?

Nomar

09-10-2002, 10:03 PM

Wow, I like the Texans, but Vick is so much better than Carr will ever dream of being.

rezdawg

09-10-2002, 10:05 PM

In most cases, it does help to stay in college. But, the facts remain the same. There have been hundreds of busts that played all 4 years. There have also been hundreds of players who have played well despite playing less than 4 years in college. The reason: The NFL is different than NCAA football. If everything was so simple, there would never be any players taken who didnt have 4 years of college ball under their belts.

rezdawg

09-10-2002, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by Nomar
Wow, I like the Texans, but Vick is so much better than Carr will ever dream of being.

What are you basing your opinion on?

Htownhero

09-10-2002, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by rezdawg
In most cases, it does help to stay in college. But, the facts remain the same. There have been hundreds of busts that played all 4 years. There have also been hundreds of players who have played well despite playing less than 4 years in college. The reason: The NFL is different than NCAA football. If everything was so simple, there would never be any players taken who didnt have 4 years of college ball under their belts.

So in most cases it helps to stay for four years, but not when it hurts your argument? Carr would have been ready to start at the NFL level after his soph year right? C'mon man thats absurd and you know it.

rezdawg

09-10-2002, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by Htownhero
So in most cases it helps to stay for four years, but not when it hurts your argument? Carr would have been ready to start at the NFL level after his soph year right? C'mon man thats absurd and you know it.

Dude, it obviously helps to stay all 4 years. But thats not always the case. You cant just blame Vick's rookie year performance on the fact that he played 2 less years of college ball than Carr.

Htownhero

09-10-2002, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by rezdawg
Dude, it obviously helps to stay all 4 years. But thats not always the case. You cant just blame Vick's rookie year performance on the fact that he played 2 less years of college ball than Carr.

What do you blame it on? How do you explain the difference from last year to this year?

The Cat

09-10-2002, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by Htownhero
Hmmm one team played Green bay in Green bay and the other had Dallas at home. Man, you're right....Vick's a loser!:rolleyes:

I agree, but it's equally dumb to discuss Vick's stats this week as a reason for him being better. Vick is with a supporting cast with some explosive weapons and a team that was in the Super Bowl just three years ago. Carr is with an expansion team. Before you compare passing numbers, wait for Carr to at least get an offensive line. It's not an even playing field right now... not even close.

Originally posted by Oski2005
Think about this, if Vick had stayed in college and been available in the draft this year, who would the Texans have taken? It seemed like they were hell bent on drafting Vick before he came out early, so I think that settles it on who is the better choice now.

Show me one quote where the Texans said this. That was media hype. Hell, the Texans practically committed to Carr last November, but as late as February people were trying to stir up stories that Houston was leaning to taking Joey Harrington or Bryant McKinnie at number one! Most teams don't reveal their plans to the media, and if they do, most people think it's some conspiracy and look somewhere else. The fact is, guys like Vick from big name schools that competed for national championships are going to get more hype than a quarterback for Fresno St., no matter how good he is.

Originally posted by Oski2005
Carr was sacked 6 times in the Dallas game. I imagine a mobile QB like Vick might have avoided half of those.

An Olympic track star couldn't have avoided half of those sacks with the Texans offensive line.

Originally posted by rezdawg
What are you basing your opinion on?

Hype, flash, and Sportscenter. Nomar was one of the ones that thought we were fools for not taking Bryant McKinnie number one... some of the arguments we had back in those days made it very, very apparent that he didn't know Carr's game well.

rezdawg

09-10-2002, 10:24 PM

I got a question for you.

You are saying that Vick barely played last year, thus, he is basically at the same level that Carr is at. So, how do you explain Vicks growth from last year to this year? Like I said earlier, it doest matter that Vick didnt play much last year. What is more important is that Vick learned a lot on the sideline. This is the experience that Vick has that Carr doesnt have. That is why it is unfair to compare Vicks numbers with Carr's numbers right now.

mfclark

09-10-2002, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by rezdawg
C'Mon man...Whether he played or not is irrelevant. There is a reason he sat out most of the year. Its a learning process whether you play or not. Just in the same way McNair was benched for much of his rookie campaign. Also, does it really matter that the Falcons switched to a 3-4 defense?

No, the switch in defenses doesn't matter. The change in playbook on the offensive side of the ball does matter, though.

And do you think that Carr would be starting if the Texans had a capable veteran like the Falcons did last year in Chris Chandler? I don't.

Carr has the experience of 4 years in college...a couple of more than Vick did. No, it's not the NFL - but it's more than nothing.

rezdawg

09-10-2002, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by mfclark
Carr has the experience of 4 years in college...a couple of more than Vick did. No, it's not the NFL - but it's more than nothing.

Yes, and Vick has one year of NFL experience, whether he played or not.

moestavern19

09-10-2002, 10:30 PM

Michael Vick - Brian Finnerann, Willie Jackson, Shawn Jefferson

David Carr - Jabar Gaffney, Corey Bradford, Jermaine Lewis

Two of the worst WR corps in the league yet one of these guys will probably have a huge season due to the pure talent of their QB's. The fact that Carr played good against a suspect secondary doesn't impress me a whole lot, what does impress me is his confidence level at this stage in his career.

The Only Offensive edge Vick has right now is Warrick Dunn. Dunn is a very underrated back who scored twice against the Packers. Still, I think Vick will have an outstanding career. I think his career will largely follow the path of McNabb's. play a few games in the 1st year, Show some nice moves, nothing special. Season 2, Main guy, Understands Offense, Very sucessful.

Htownhero

09-10-2002, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by rezdawg
I got a question for you.

You are saying that Vick barely played last year, thus, he is basically at the same level that Carr is at. So, how do you explain Vicks growth from last year to this year? Like I said earlier, it doest matter that Vick didnt play much last year. What is more important is that Vick learned a lot on the sideline. This is the experience that Vick has that Carr doesnt have. That is why it is unfair to compare Vicks numbers with Carr's numbers right now.

Knowledge of the playbook, studying NFL defenses on film, practice with the first team and most importantly maturing. Look lets do this. Let's agree that both Houston and Atlanta are very happy with their qb situation, and wish each other mutual success. It is quite impossible for either of us to look at a rookie and second year qb and guess with any accuracy who's gonna be better. Realistically it's just a grand old pissing contest that is below all of us. Good luck Texans.

rezdawg

09-10-2002, 10:36 PM

Originally posted by Htownhero
Knowledge of the playbook, studying NFL defenses on film, practice with the first team and most importantly maturing. Look lets do this. Let's agree that both Houston and Atlanta are very happy with their qb situation, and wish each other mutual success. It is quite impossible for either of us to look at a rookie and second year qb and guess with any accuracy who's gonna be better. Realistically it's just a grand old pissing contest that is below all of us. Good luck Texans.

Go look back at my first post on this thread. I never declared one better than the other. Its just too early for these discussions.

Timing

09-10-2002, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by mfclark
Carr has the experience of 4 years in college...a couple of more than Vick did. No, it's not the NFL - but it's more than nothing.

Carr did not start his first two years at Fresno State so he only started two seasons in college just like Vick and both of them redshirted a year. I don't think two years of Carr mostly standing on the sidelines his first two years in college would equal Vick's one year of experience in a longer NFL season without time restrictions on when he could be coached.

Ric

09-10-2002, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by The Cat
Show me one quote where the Texans said this.
casserly has said, had they been picking in 2001, vick would've been their choice. of course, they weren't picking in 2001, but...

htownhero, since i started the whole "vick has more experience" thread... two nfl training camps DWARF two extra years of college. how often vick played in games is irrelevant (though he played in quite a few); all the acclimation and learning that carr's doing this year vick got to do last year. he's a year ahead of carr in terms of development.

gr8-1

09-10-2002, 11:30 PM

IF vick throws a better deep ball, then I am impressed. Carr's arm is alot stronger than what I gave him credit for. That pass to Lewis was a frozen rope of about 60 yards in a game situation. Usually, receivers wait on deep balls, but apparently not with Carr.

It's all relative though. Elway and Favre both have cannons. Whose arm is stronger? Don't know, and it doesn't matter. Both Vick's and Carr's arms are plenty strong enough.

CriscoKidd

09-10-2002, 11:35 PM

I'd take Vick, and though it's not set in stone that he'll be a better qb, I think he has a pretty good chance.

Carr still rocks though, and has a better organization behind him to surround him with a better team imo.

Rokkit

09-10-2002, 11:52 PM

So, wait....if I think one will end up being better, that means I have to bash the other?

Damn.

The Cat

09-11-2002, 12:31 AM

Originally posted by Ric
casserly has said, had they been picking in 2001, vick would've been their choice. of course, they weren't picking in 2001, but...

Well, I know that... the Texans definitely wanted to pursue a QB with the top pick, and Vick was about the only franchise QB in 2001. Anyone who wanted a QB would be "hell-bent" on getting him in that draft. However, translating that to future drafts isn't very reasonable.

drapg

09-11-2002, 12:42 AM

holy crap!

i had no idea this thread would elicit such emotion! :eek:

Stevie Francis

09-11-2002, 01:33 AM

vick no doubt. I am so pisse dthat he declared for the draft last year. But did you see his contract 10million a year and carr makes 6.85million a year. Based on money you can tell who will be better. Vick will be one of the all time best once he gets experience and better passing accracy,(spell check)

rezdawg

09-11-2002, 03:59 AM

Originally posted by Stevie Francis
vick no doubt. I am so pisse dthat he declared for the draft last year. But did you see his contract 10million a year and carr makes 6.85million a year. Based on money you can tell who will be better. Vick will be one of the all time best once he gets experience and better passing accracy,(spell check)

Thats a great way to look at it. Whoever makes more money is better. I guess Juwan Howard is better than Steve Francis. :rolleyes:

Oh yeah, and just for the record, lets look at the contracts of the two players:

Vick: 8 years, 62 million, 15.3 mill in first 3 years.
Carr: 7 years, up to 60 million, 16 mill in first 3 years.

You do the math.

Roc Paint

09-11-2002, 04:29 AM

You can't go wrong w/ either one of them, but I would still take Carr.

Buck Turgidson

09-11-2002, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by Stevie Francis
Based on money you can tell who will be better.
BWAAHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHH

Stevie strikes again.

PhiSlammaJamma

09-11-2002, 11:19 AM

Carr dove head first for a 1st down against dallas. He can play hard too. Vick is a big boy though. I'd just say let's wait and see. Both bring very different things to the table.

One disadvantage to Vick is that he is a lefty. The WR's will not be accustomed to catching his ball. But neither will the Db's.

drapg

09-11-2002, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by Stevie Francis
Based on money you can tell who will be better.

Not to be too rude, but this has to be hands down the most ignorant post I've ever read!

Money = talent?

I hope you weren't thinking when you typed that and that isn't your true opinion.

If so, then I guess Juwan Howard is one of the top 5 playes in the NBA and Ryan Leaf with his $11.25 million signing bonus was a fantastic quarterback!

moestavern19

09-11-2002, 04:30 PM

Steve - You really need to stop posting about stuff you know nothing about. The NFL is not a game of monopoly. Just Because Aaron Brooks made 500k last season makes him worse than Ryan Leaf? Your rational is as twisted as... Sinbad's take on marriage.

The Cat

09-11-2002, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by Stevie Francis
Based on money you can tell who will be better.

Welcome to the BBS Kelvin!

tozai

09-11-2002, 10:29 PM

Who cares? They're both gonna be studs, and we're lucky to have one of them. 2 different styles, but both very exciting to watch. I'd pick Vick, because he's just a freak and I don't know how good he can get, but that's not say Carr couldn't be one of the elite as well.

rezdawg

09-11-2002, 11:46 PM

Last week, Madden said that Carr is one of the best young QB's he has EVER seen. Lets just be glad that we have him.

Refman

09-12-2002, 12:53 AM

Originally posted by mfclark
I saw both Carr and Vick in action on Sunday, and must say that Vick is further along at this point.

Both will be good QBs...but Vick's mobility gives him a definite advantage now and in the long run at the position.
Not to single you out mfclark...but all I keep hearing about is Vick's mobility. Joe Montana and John Elway weren't the most mobile of guys...but I'd take either over Vick in a second. Will Carr be like Montana and Elway? I don't know. But I say this to say that mobility does not a winning QB make.

drapg

09-12-2002, 01:15 AM

Refman

09-12-2002, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by drapg
Comparing Carr and Vick is one thing... Both are relatively young guys with limited NFL experience... Thus to differentiate, saying one is mobile is a valid distinguishing point between the two.

But to compare Elway/Montana, seasoned champion NFL vets to Vick is something totally different. That's not a fair comparison at all. Now if you're talking about Elway and Montana in their rookie seasons, back in the early 1980s, than I can understand your comparison. Unfortunately I wasn't old enough to analyze football during that time period, so I'd have no opinion.
I went out of my way to say that I wasn't comparing them. I used them to illustrate the basic premise that some of the most prolific and legendary QBs in NFL history had limited to no mobility.

rezdawg

09-12-2002, 01:57 AM

Points are being made about how Vick is so mobile compared to Carr. One thing that is being overlooked is Carr's mobility. Its not like this guy only sits in the pocket and has no ability to avoid a pass rush. This kid is a lot quicker than he is getting credit for. Ask Michael Strahan what he thinks about Carr's quickness.

giddyup

09-12-2002, 03:27 AM

Vick = ~Steve Young

Carr = ~Terry Bradshaw

How about Vicky Carr?

Timing

09-12-2002, 03:36 AM

Originally posted by giddyup
Vick = ~Steve Young

Carr = ~Terry Bradshaw

How about Vicky Carr?

From watching them play Vick reminds me of Randall Cunningham and Carr reminds me of a stronger armed Troy Aikman.

Refman

09-12-2002, 04:01 AM

Originally posted by Timing
From watching them play Vick reminds me of Randall Cunningham and Carr reminds me of a stronger armed Troy Aikman.
So are you saying that 10 years from now Carr will be winning Super Bowls and Vick will be cutting marble in Las Vegas? :D

moestavern19

09-12-2002, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by rezdawg
Last week, Madden said that Carr is one of the best young QB's he has EVER seen. Lets just be glad that we have him.

Yeah And On Monday Night, Madden said Tom Brady was Joe Montana. :rolleyes:

Too many turduckens.

Timing

09-12-2002, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by Refman
So are you saying that 10 years from now Carr will be winning Super Bowls and Vick will be cutting marble in Las Vegas? :D

That's the plan baby! :D

mfclark

09-12-2002, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by Refman
Not to single you out mfclark...but all I keep hearing about is Vick's mobility. Joe Montana and John Elway weren't the most mobile of guys...but I'd take either over Vick in a second. Will Carr be like Montana and Elway? I don't know. But I say this to say that mobility does not a winning QB make.

You are right - mobility does not make a winning QB. But, it can certainly help.

Vick has shown the ability to sit in the pocket and make some nice throws; he suffered a couple of the same dropped passes vs. Green Bay that Carr did with Jermaine Lewis vs. Dallas. Per the analysts on the GB-Atl game, most coaches and players they've spoken with are more afraid of Vick's arm than of his mobility, a scary thought. Dan Reeves himself, though, thinks Vick's arm is slightly below Elway's.

Where mobility comes in is when the defense collpases the protection and starts to come after the quarterback. The ability to get out of the pocket and either run for a gain or make a quick decision on the run to find a receiver only makes a good QB even better. That's the trend in the NFL these days, and many quarterbacks have been successful because of it - McNabb, Culpepper, Brooks, and Garcia to name a few - while the pocket passer has been deemphasized as of late.

That's not to say that Carr won't be a great QB. What it does mean, though, is that Vick has more natural tools that he can use and develop to become a more complete player, one who is great all-around as a quarterback. That's why I think he has the higher upside and is better as a franchise QB.

PhiSlammaJamma

09-12-2002, 02:52 PM

Yeah, but we have Boselli :) Carr won't be running

rezdawg

09-12-2002, 03:05 PM

I just read a statement by Merril Hoge on ESPN. Just wanted to put it out there for those saying that Vick's arm is stronger than Carr's. Hoge's statement is regarding the Texans vs. Chargers game.

The Texans were in an attack mode, and they must have the same mind-set against the Chargers. Expansion teams may have a tendency to cover up and protect a young quarterback, but Carr's gun is as good as Elway's was.

Thats a big claim, but it does show the cannon that Carr possesses.

Ric

09-12-2002, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by Timing
From watching them play Vick reminds me of Randall Cunningham and Carr reminds me of a stronger armed Troy Aikman.
ehhhh.... cunningham, maybe, but aikman? carr is much more athletic, has a much better arm and doesn't need a perfect pocket, perfect pass route, etc. in order to succeed.

not saying he's even close to his level, but if carr looks like anyone, it's favre. that's been the most common comparison going back at least two years.

Timing

09-12-2002, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by Ric
ehhhh.... cunningham, maybe, but aikman? carr is much more athletic, has a much better arm and doesn't need a perfect pocket, perfect pass route, etc. in order to succeed.

not saying he's even close to his level, but if carr looks like anyone, it's favre. that's been the most common comparison going back at least two years.

Hey I said a stronger armed Aikman! Favre is big on improvisation and throwing on the run and I haven't really seen that from Carr here in Houston. Maybe he celebrates like Favre on the field but Favre just seems like more of a gunslinger than Carr does even if their arms are similar. Either way it's pretty good company.

Buck Turgidson

09-12-2002, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by moestavern19
Yeah And On Monday Night, Madden said Tom Brady was Joe Montana. :rolleyes:
Actually, he made a point of saying, "I'm not saying he's as good as Montana", I think he said that twice. He just said that Brady's style reminded him of Joe.

Buck Turgidson

09-12-2002, 04:33 PM

NYKRule

09-12-2002, 04:53 PM

"One disadvantage to Vick is that he is a lefty. The WR's will not be accustomed to catching his ball"

Look at who has caught the most NFL catches in the past 6 years.

This is a pointless discussion. Its at a site with mainly Texans supporters. Most of the "decisions" will be out of plain Texans-lovin. That being said, I would take Vick in a heartbeat because of pure skills and he played at Virginia Tech.

Manny Ramirez

09-12-2002, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by Refman
I went out of my way to say that I wasn't comparing them. I used them to illustrate the basic premise that some of the most prolific and legendary QBs in NFL history had limited to no mobility.

Er, Refman, if Elway was so immobile as you say, how do you explain these stats:

Ranks Fourth among QBs for Rushing Yards:
1. R. Cunningham 4,741
2. S. Young 4,182
3. Tarkenton 3,674
4. Elway 3,407

Only Player to Pass for 3,000 Yards and Rush for 200 Yards in the Same Season for 7 Straight Seasons (1985-91)—NO OTHER PLAYER HAS MORE THAN 4 STRAIGHT

Pass for 3,000 Yards and Rush for 200 Yards in the Same Season TOTAL: 10 (1985-91; 94, 96, 97)

Ranks Third All-Time in TDs with 334:
300 Passing
33 Rushing
1 Receiving

One of Only 2 Players (Fran Tarkenton) All-Time to Rush for 3,000 Yards and Pass for 40,000 Yards in a Career

Yup, sure sounds like he couldn't move to me. :rolleyes:

Ric

09-12-2002, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by Timing
Hey I said a stronger armed Aikman! Favre is big on improvisation and throwing on the run and I haven't really seen that from Carr here in Houston. Maybe he celebrates like Favre on the field but Favre just seems like more of a gunslinger than Carr does even if their arms are similar. Either way it's pretty good company.
no offense, but aikman's just a really bad comparison, imo. aikman couldn't, even if his life depended on it, improvise. carr can, and he will. right now, though, they've got him on a pretty short leash -- they don't want him taking chances, throwing INTs and/or taking a big hit outside the comfort of his pocket. they're also messing with his mechanics, etc., etc.

i saw and read quite abit about carr last year -- favre was the name most commonly mentioned. carr is very athletic.

Originally posted by NYKRule
That being said, I would take Vick in a heartbeat because of pure skills and he played at Virginia Tech.
what's in the hell does VT have to do with anything?

Timing

09-12-2002, 05:29 PM

I didn't watch much of Carr in college so I'll look out for that Favre type stuff.

MadMax

09-12-2002, 06:18 PM

david carr is cool! :D

my wife put up a texans poster in my two year old son's room yesterday...it has david carr on it, among others...when i got home yesterday my son met me at the door screaming, "daddy..daddy...come here..come here" he grabbed me by the hand and led me to his room...he pointed up at it, smiled and said, "david.....carr." (though sometimes he calls david carr, dave matthews --- too many davids to keep up with!)

then he looked up at me puzzled and said, "where's toro??" :)

of course, when i took him to the preseason game against tampa bay he asked where the choo-choo was...i guess he thought there was a train in EVERY stadium, just like Minute Maid Park! :)

(i realize this is mildly off topic, but i have to share these things from time to time because i think my kid is so cool!) :)

Buck Turgidson

09-12-2002, 06:25 PM

That's awesome, Max.

When playing the "What sound does a cow make?" "Moo." game the other day, one of my little cousins responded to the question "What sound does a goose make?" with a resounding "AFLAC." I almost threw up I was laughing so hard.

gr8-1

09-12-2002, 06:29 PM

Elway was very mobile. Hell, didn't he lead the Broncos in rushing a couple of years? He was fun to watch and he played with some really crappy teams. Still the prototype, imo.

Expansion teams may have a tendency to cover up and protect a young quarterback, but Carr's gun is as good as Elway's was.

I'm not sure Brett Favre in his prime's arm was as strong as Elway's. He really had a cannon. He threw someone out from the warning track to 3rd base at Disch Falk.

mfclark

09-12-2002, 06:57 PM

Elways was a mobile QB; his stats were likely hampered by Reeves' unwillingness to let him run loose.

However, Vick is probably more athletic than he is and quite possibly the most athletic QB in NFL history. Reeves isn't going to make the same mistake twice, if the reworking of the playbook and last week's game are any indications.

I don't doubt that Carr's arm strength may be stronger than Vick's; I believe Refman showed a comparison to Carr being on a level with Elway in that regard, and I showed Dan Reeves' comparison to Vick being just below that same level.

But, his ability to move around and turn any loss into a positive gives the edge to Vick, at least in my book.

MadMax

09-12-2002, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by Buck Turgidson
That's awesome, Max.

When playing the "What sound does a cow make?" "Moo." game the other day, one of my little cousins responded to the question "What sound does a goose make?" with a resounding "AFLAC." I almost threw up I was laughing so hard.

hilarious!! kids are amazing!!

occasionally my son will break out with...."daddy...ready for some football??!!" he tries to sing it like they do on MNF!

NYKRule

09-12-2002, 06:59 PM

Forget one of the most athletic QBs, one of the most athletic players period.

The Real Shady

09-12-2002, 07:06 PM

I don't doubt that Carr's arm strength may be stronger than Vick's;

Carr's arm stronger than Vick's arm? Come on man didn't you see that Power Aid commercail when Vick threw the ball out of the stadium. ;)

You can't really compare the two at this stage in their career. The one thing that I like about Carr is that he has a nice head on his shoulders to go along with all that talent.

As for Vick, you can't compare him to anyone else because he is simply the most talented and athletic QB every to come out of college. The Cunningham comparasons are simmilar but I would rather call Cunnigham a poor man's Vick than Vick the next Cunningham.

ElGrandeQueso

09-14-2002, 12:40 AM

Interesting question but I'd have to go with Vick. He can throw as well or better than Carr and his legs add a new dimension to the QB position. If Vick had stayed in school, the Texans would undoubtedly have taken him over Carr. Physically, David Carr will never be Michael Vick so his only chance to win this battle is with wins.

The Cat

09-14-2002, 01:32 AM

Originally posted by ElGrandeQueso
If Vick had stayed in school, the Texans would undoubtedly have taken him over Carr. Physically, David Carr will never be Michael Vick so his only chance to win this battle is with wins.

Says who? Please don't post this crap, like you do with Yao Ming, if you don't have anything to back it up. It's not all about physical talent. One of the reasons the Texans were so high on Carr are his mental attributes. He's a very, very smart quarterback who can grasp an offense extremely well and be a verbal leader on the field.

All I've ever read or seen from Vick is his superior physical attributes. I'm not saying that his leadership or intelligence are bad, but they obviously aren't standout like they are for David Carr. I'll take the QB with a great arm, better than average mobility, and tremendous leadership and smarts over the QB with a great arm, great mobility, and average leadership and smarts.

rezdawg

09-14-2002, 04:39 AM

Originally posted by ElGrandeQueso
Interesting question but I'd have to go with Vick. He can throw as well or better than Carr

you say that with such confidence.

NYKRule

09-14-2002, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by The Cat
Says who? Please don't post this crap, like you do with Yao Ming, if you don't have anything to back it up. It's not all about physical talent. One of the reasons the Texans were so high on Carr are his mental attributes. He's a very, very smart quarterback who can grasp an offense extremely well and be a verbal leader on the field.

All I've ever read or seen from Vick is his superior physical attributes. I'm not saying that his leadership or intelligence are bad, but they obviously aren't standout like they are for David Carr. I'll take the QB with a great arm, better than average mobility, and tremendous leadership and smarts over the QB with a great arm, great mobility, and average leadership and smarts.

I have a feeling if Carr was a Falcon and Vick was a Texan it would be the opposite. IMO if you take Carr and Vick off of their respective teams, the Texans have more talent than the Falcons. Wins don't always determine if a QB is better than another one.

The Cat

09-14-2002, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by NYKRule
I have a feeling if Carr was a Falcon and Vick was a Texan it would be the opposite. IMO if you take Carr and Vick off of their respective teams, the Texans have more talent than the Falcons. Wins don't always determine if a QB is better than another one.

I have a feeling that if Vick weren't from Virginia Tech it would be the opposite. Don't bother with any emphatic denial... there's just as much proof for you as there is for me. None.

Offensively, there's no question the Falcons have a lot more talent. Just a week ago, you were telling me in chat how much Corey Bradford sucked... of course I disagree, but he and Jabar Gaffney, a rookie, are not that much better, if at all, than Willie Jackson and Shawn Jefferson.

And, Atlanta actually has a running game. Warrick Dunn is one of the more underrated players in the league... his speed, and his ability to catch the ball out of the backfield make him a very good weapon in a speed offense. TJ Duckett is a very nice rookie too... the pair of them is significantly greater than James Allen and Jonathan Wells. The Texans offensive line may be better when healthy, but Boselli and Young are still out for a while, and as long as they are ATL has the edge in that area too.

ElGrandeQueso

09-14-2002, 07:22 PM

I have nothing at all bad to say about David Carr. The guy's a great QB and I'm behind him 100%. With that said, if the Texans hadn't selected him first and billed him as they have, no one on this board would have much interest in him or have much to say about the guy. On the other hand, Michael Vick was touted from every analyst coast to coast as "The Future". Carr's a great QB but his athletic and marketing ability are less than Vick's. If Vick stayed in school then he would have been our guy, no question. Also, I'm quite sure Vick has a stronger arm than Carr. I've read that Vick can throw about 75-80 yards while Carr can throw between 70-75. And I don't know how Vick can't be considered a leader or winner when he took a previously 9-3 Virgina Tech team to the National Championship game, as a freshman!

The Cat

09-14-2002, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by ElGrandeQueso
With that said, if the Texans hadn't selected him first and billed him as they have, no one on this board would have much interest in him or have much to say about the guy. On the other hand, Michael Vick was touted from every analyst coast to coast as "The Future". Carr's a great QB but his athletic and marketing ability are less than Vick's. If Vick stayed in school then he would have been our guy, no question. Also, I'm quite sure Vick has a stronger arm than Carr. I've read that Vick can throw about 75-80 yards while Carr can throw between 70-75. And I don't know how Vick can't be considered a leader or winner when he took a previously 9-3 Virgina Tech team to the National Championship game, as a freshman!

Not everyone in the national championship game, especially those in weak conferences, is a leader. I'll be willing to bet anything that if UT is in the national championship game this year and loses, people will be all over Chris Simms for losing a big game and not giving him credit for the "leadership" to get them there. Also, of course Vick is going to be "touted" more by analysts... he played on a national championship contender. Carr played for Fresno St. What do you expect? Carr put up great numbers, but people rarely ever got to see him play.

There's a lot of question about it. You don't have one solid quote from the Texans to suggest they prefer Vick to Carr, so there are questions until you hear them say that. Who cares what his "marketing ability" is? This is football, not basketball or baseball. Fans are going to come to the games for the first three years anyway. Football teams are not thinking "who is marketable" when they draft.

Also, hopefully the Texans value maturity and intelligence at the QB position over "street baller" athletics. It seems like now that every quarterback who has mobility is regarded as some great NFL prospect, when in reality you can't go anywhere without the maturity and intellect to make decisions. See Akili Smith. It's not that Vick is anywhere near Akili Smith, but it's worth mentioning. I have not seen anything yet from Michael Vick, in either college or the pros, to distinguish him as a great decision-maker as a quarterback. It's not that he can't be, but I've seen much, much less from him than I have from Carr.

I've never read that Vick could throw 80 yards, so I'd like to see some documentation on that too.

NYKRule

09-14-2002, 08:30 PM

Not everyone in the national championship game, especially those in weak conferences, is a leader.

Damn, that vaunted WAC conference, so much talent, so many national powers. Every QB that wins in that conference must have leadership abilities. :rolleyes: I'm not saying he doesn't. Its just funny that the Big East is probably better in talent.

Offensively, there's no question the Falcons have a lot more talent. Just a week ago, you were telling me in chat how much Corey Bradford sucked... of course I disagree

Corey Bradford still isn't good or proven yet. But wins aren't always won by offense alone....

rezdawg

09-14-2002, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by ElGrandeQueso
Also, I'm quite sure Vick has a stronger arm than Carr. I've read that Vick can throw about 75-80 yards while Carr can throw between 70-75.

Arm strength isnt necessarily measured by how far you can throw the ball. How often is Vick going to throw an 80 yard bomb? When considering a QB's arm strength, the most important aspect is how hard he throws. Carr may not be able to throw as deep as Vick, but Carr can no doubt throw harder than Vick. I would take Carr's arm as a QB over Vick's any day of the week.

BigM

09-14-2002, 09:59 PM

both of them will be great but i like carr better because he's a texan and i'm biased. so there. :p

The Cat

09-15-2002, 12:13 AM

Originally posted by NYKRule
Damn, that vaunted WAC conference, so much talent, so many national powers. Every QB that wins in that conference must have leadership abilities. :rolleyes: I'm not saying he doesn't. Its just funny that the Big East is probably better in talent.

Well, I'm not judging Carr's leadership from his college days. From the opening day of camp, the coaches have raved about Carr's on-field leadership and his understanding of the offense. Perhaps the ATL coaches are saying this about Vick too, but if they are, I've missed it.

Ric

09-15-2002, 01:14 AM

Originally posted by NYKRule
Damn, that vaunted WAC conference, so much talent, so many national powers. Every QB that wins in that conference must have leadership abilities. I'm not saying he doesn't. Its just funny that the Big East is probably better in talent.
hey, you know what might be fun? well, fun for me, not you -- let's count up how many big east QBs have led their teams to the super bowl the past... let's say... 5 years.

uhm... let's see... is northern iowa in the big east? no. mcnesse state? no. southern miss? no. hmmm.. i count zero; let's see... 1,2,3, yep, zero. funny... over that same span, in addition to powerhouses like the aforementioned norther iowa, et al, it seems little ol' fresno state has a super bowl champion alum... ironic, isn't it?

so, yeah, GREAT, and i do mean G-R-E-A-T, point. big east QBs are obviously going to make better pros.

the truth is, college competition is rarely, if ever, even a small factor in a QB's pro success. if it were, heath shuler would be a star; cade mcnown would be a star; rick mirer would be a star.... it's a long and distinguished list (so's my johnson).

Htownhero

09-15-2002, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by rezdawg
Carr may not be able to throw as deep as Vick, but Carr can no doubt throw harder than Vick. I would take Carr's arm as a QB over Vick's any day of the week.

I tried to just stay out of this, but this statement is the biggest load of **** I've ever seen. Find me one link to back this up.

]Originally posted by TheCat
Well, I'm not judging Carr's leadership from his college days. From the opening day of camp, the coaches have raved about Carr's on-field leadership and his understanding of the offense. Perhaps the ATL coaches are saying this about Vick too, but if they are, I've missed it.

Yes, you have missed it. Atlanta's coaches have done nothing but praise Vick's leadership in the huddle and understanding of the playbook. He spent a ton of the off-season in the film room with Jack Burns(our qb coach) studying defensive sets and mastering the playbook.

NYKRule

09-15-2002, 11:37 AM

hey, you know what might be fun? well, fun for me, not you -- let's count up how many big east QBs have led their teams to the super bowl the past... let's say... 5 years.

uhm... let's see... is northern iowa in the big east? no. mcnesse state? no. southern miss? no. hmmm.. i count zero; let's see... 1,2,3, yep, zero. funny...

This is a revolting pile of ****. QBs can't will a team past another team that clearly has more talent. Well, Big East QB #1 almost did it last year, and Big East QB #2 almost did it against the Packers this past week. Big Ten Brady succeeded in what Big East QB #1 couldn't do. You fail to realize we are discussing QB talent, not team talent. (I brought team talent in to show a QB shouldn't be judged upon wins because it's a total different situation)

the truth is, college competition is rarely, if ever, even a small factor in a QB's pro success. if it were, heath shuler would be a star; cade mcnown would be a star; rick mirer would be a star.... it's a long and distinguished list

And the truth is, Michael Vick has much more talent than any of those players. And probably just as much as any QB you can name in the history of the NFL. Give him what "McNeese State, Southern Miss, Fresno State, and especially Northern Iowa" have...and it won't even be a contest.

mfclark

09-15-2002, 07:05 PM

After their respective performances today, is there really any question to at least who is further along at this point? Vick did more against one of the best defenses in the league, while Carr (and the entire Texan squad) struggled.

Of course, that's no indication for the future...but right now, Vick's a good distance ahead of Carr.

The Cat

09-15-2002, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by mfclark
After their respective performances today, is there really any question to at least who is further along at this point? Vick did more against one of the best defenses in the league, while Carr (and the entire Texan squad) struggled.

Of course, that's no indication for the future...but right now, Vick's a good distance ahead of Carr.

Well, Carr throwing under intense pressure and only under situations where the defense expected a pass isn't exactly a fair way to judge his progress. If you give Vick the Texans offensive line, and the playcalling they've had today, I seriously doubt he does any better.

Htownhero

09-15-2002, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by The Cat
Well, Carr throwing under intense pressure and only under situations where the defense expected a pass isn't exactly a fair way to judge his progress. If you give Vick the Texans offensive line, and the playcalling they've had today, I seriously doubt he does any better.

If you think Vick has a good o-line or that Dan Reeves isn't as conservative, if not more, than Capers you are very mistaken. Fact is Vick's talents allow him to be successful in SPITE of things like having a crap offensive line, where on the other hand Carr NEEDS a good line to be successful.

The Cat

09-15-2002, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by Htownhero
If you think Vick has a good o-line or that Dan Reeves isn't as conservative, if not more, than Capers you are very mistaken. Fact is Vick's talents allow him to be successful in SPITE of things like having a crap offensive line, where on the other hand Carr NEEDS a good line to be successful.

Atlanta's offensive line, while it may not be "good", is light years ahead of Houston. Houston's line right now may be the worst in NFL history... there's not even a comparison to what Atlanta has. Vick had adequate time to throw today against one of the best defenses in the league. Also, I repeatedly saw him throwing on first and 10 situations. In this game, Carr has gotten to do that twice.

PhiSlammaJamma

09-15-2002, 07:26 PM

Isn't Houston 1-1 and Atlanta 0-2. Yeah, Vick is so much further ahead it blows me away. Please. So what if Carr had a bad day. Carr also lit up a Dallas defense considered to be one of the best. And he beat them. Vick didn't even win his game. To say Vick is better than Carr is ridiculous. He may be one day, but right now the guy is 0-2 in his second season with a veteran team.

Htownhero

09-15-2002, 07:32 PM

NYKRule

09-15-2002, 07:40 PM

moestavern19

09-15-2002, 07:45 PM

Geez, I have to agree with NYK on this, You guys are like the Spurs with Tony Parker. I know David Carr is already the best QB in nfl history in your minds, but he isn't Jesus yet.

The Cat

09-15-2002, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by moestavern19
Geez, I have to agree with NYK on this, You guys are like the Spurs with Tony Parker. I know David Carr is already the best QB in nfl history in your minds, but he isn't Jesus yet.

Geez, we think a player might be better than Michael Vick and that equates to us thinking of him as the best QB in nfl history? :rolleyes:

mfclark

09-15-2002, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by PhiSlammaJamma
Isn't Houston 1-1 and Atlanta 0-2. Yeah, Vick is so much further ahead it blows me away. Please. So what if Carr had a bad day. Carr also lit up a Dallas defense considered to be one of the best. And he beat them. Vick didn't even win his game. To say Vick is better than Carr is ridiculous. He may be one day, but right now the guy is 0-2 in his second season with a veteran team.

The Falcons, a veteran team? They've essentially just entered the latter stages of rebuilding with younger talent, letting msot of their veterans go!

And let's look at who each team played...

Texas: Dallas, San Diego
Atlanta: Green Bay, Chicago

Atlanta has faced two of the best defenses (and teams) in all of football, while Texas' schedule and defenses faced pales in comparison.

Equating your statement to another would be like saying that because his team has a lower record than the Lakers or the Celtics, Steve Francis isn't as good of a point guard/floor general as Derek Fisher or Kenny Anderson.

PhiSlammaJamma

09-15-2002, 09:16 PM

Who's talking about Rodney Peete? You must have thrown that into the equation to make yourself look good. The statement made in here were that Vick was much better than Carr. That's just not true. Carr has shown just as much of an ability to lead his team to victory as Vick has. If not more. What has Vick done that Carr has not? I've never claimed Carr was better. But Vick hasn't shown anything yet and may be lucky to throw for the 14,000 yards that Rodney Peete has.

PhiSlammaJamma

09-15-2002, 09:20 PM

Altanta's team has been together a whole lot longer than Houston's. I think by comparison, which is what we are doing here aren't we, that would make Atlanta a veteran team. Who wouldn't agree with that? you are taking everything way out of context. The comparison here is between Vick and Carr. Not the NFL.

NYKRule

09-15-2002, 09:31 PM

But Vick hasn't shown anything yet and may be lucky to throw for the 14,000 yards that Rodney Peete has.

Shut your mouth right now.

mfclark

09-15-2002, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by PhiSlammaJamma
Who's talking about Rodney Peete? You must have thrown that into the equation to make yourself look good. The statement made in here were that Vick was much better than Carr.

And all he simply did was make the same argument you did, except he changed it around to make Peete look better than Carr as you did with Carr vs. Vick.

Carr has shown just as much of an ability to lead his team to victory as Vick has. If not more.

Not in college, as Carr's Fresno State team couldn't match what Vick did with Virginia Tech, taking them all the way to the national title game. Not in the NFL, unless you want to include a win against the hapless Cowboys from last week and forget about Vick's play lsat year.

I'm guessing you haven't watched much of Vick play, and that's fine. He'll get the chance to show the entire nation next week on national TV, as the Falcons play a team at about the same level as the Cowboys are - the Bengals.

Htownhero

09-15-2002, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by PhiSlammaJamma
Who's talking about Rodney Peete? You must have thrown that into the equation to make yourself look good. The statement made in here were that Vick was much better than Carr. That's just not true. Carr has shown just as much of an ability to lead his team to victory as Vick has. If not more. What has Vick done that Carr has not? I've never claimed Carr was better. But Vick hasn't shown anything yet and may be lucky to throw for the 14,000 yards that Rodney Peete has.

Neevr claimed that Carr was better, huh? What did you mean by this statement then?

]Originally posted by PhiSlammaJamma
To say Vick is better than Carr is ridiculous. He may be one day, but right now the guy is 0-2 in his second season with a veteran team.

By the way, I didn't throw Peete in to make myself look good, I did it to make you look bad. There is a big difference.

Manny Ramirez

09-15-2002, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by Ric
hey, you know what might be fun? well, fun for me, not you -- let's count up how many big east QBs have led their teams to the super bowl the past... let's say... 5 years.

uhm... let's see... is northern iowa in the big east? no. mcnesse state? no. southern miss? no. hmmm.. i count zero; let's see... 1,2,3, yep, zero. funny... over that same span, in addition to powerhouses like the aforementioned norther iowa, et al, it seems little ol' fresno state has a super bowl champion alum... ironic, isn't it?

Who in the hell played at McNeese State that led his team to the Super Bowl?? Steve McNair??

Ummm, wrong answer. McNair played at Alcorn State.

So, who was this QB from McNeese State then?

Manny Ramirez

09-15-2002, 11:34 PM

BTW - I know you guys are homers and everything, but how about letting David Carr play a full season before proclaiming him to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, mmmmkay?

The Cat

09-15-2002, 11:43 PM

Originally posted by Manny Ramirez
BTW - I know you guys are homers and everything, but how about letting David Carr play a full season before proclaiming him to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, mmmmkay?

Well, Manny, couldn't you say the same thing about Michael Vick? This thread isn't about the type of quarterback Carr will become. It is a comparison of Carr and Vick. Vick hasn't played a full season either, unless you count carrying the clipboard and coming in for about ten snaps a game...

Manny Ramirez

09-16-2002, 12:00 AM

Originally posted by The Cat
Well, Manny, couldn't you say the same thing about Michael Vick? This thread isn't about the type of quarterback Carr will become. It is a comparison of Carr and Vick. Vick hasn't played a full season either, unless you count carrying the clipboard and coming in for about ten snaps a game...

Well, it is pointless to me, Cat, to compare these two. It is like comparing apples to oranges. I mean McNabb and Warner (the first 2 games notwithstanding) are 2 of the best QBs in the NFC, but I don't think you can compare them.

Just like with Vick and Carr, I don't think you can compare them. However, on pure athletic ability, there are not many humans, let alone QBs, that can compete with Vick.

PhiSlammaJamma

09-16-2002, 12:06 AM

By the way, you might want to consider that The PTI guys also work out of DC, and if anyone has a bias it would be them. We unfortunately get to watch VT every week.

Ric

09-16-2002, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by Manny Ramirez
So, who was this QB from McNeese State then?
mcneese state... alcorn state; alcorn state... mcnesse state.

Originally posted by NYKRule
This is a revolting pile of ****. QBs can't will a team past another team that clearly has more talent. Well, Big East QB #1 almost did it last year, and Big East QB #2 almost did it against the Packers this past week. Big Ten Brady succeeded in what Big East QB #1 couldn't do.
i honestly have no idea what this means. was the idea to maybe confuse me? who are these big east QBs you're not naming for some reason? totally and completely baffled.

Originally posted by NYKRule
You fail to realize we are discussing QB talent, not team talent. (I brought team talent in to show a QB shouldn't be judged upon wins because it's a total different situation)
whatever your point and however you want to try and spin it, you're the one who's twice brought up where they played in college as a basis for evaluating their pro prospects:

That being said, I would take Vick in a heartbeat because of pure skills and he played at Virginia Tech.

Damn, that vaunted WAC conference, so much talent, so many national powers. Every QB that wins in that conference must have leadership abilities. I'm not saying he doesn't. Its just funny that the Big East is probably better in talent.

NYKRule

09-16-2002, 12:28 AM

Or thats just a crappy excuse to negate the opinions of two of the most respected (edit)guys(edit) in sports journalism.

NYKRule

09-16-2002, 12:40 AM

whatever your point and however you want to try and spin it, you're the one who's twice brought up where they played in college as a basis for evaluating their pro prospects:

Quote:
That being said, I would take Vick in a heartbeat because of pure skills and he played at Virginia Tech.

Damn, that vaunted WAC conference, so much talent, so many national powers. Every QB that wins in that conference must have leadership abilities. I'm not saying he doesn't. Its just funny that the Big East is probably better in talent.

1. The first one was just because I am a Virginia Tech fan. It has no relevance on my opinion, as its the most common choice by non-Texans fans.

2. The second comment was complete sarcasm. I hope you spin it that way in the future.

3. Donovan McNabb (Syracuse) is the other Big East QB. But it doesn't matter.

moestavern19

09-16-2002, 01:27 AM

David Carr got rocked today, admit it. I know you have 823 excuses (i.e running game, defense, passing game, special teams). 6-25 for 87 yards, Rich Gannon had that in 2 minutes, Carr isn't Dan Marino yet. He is a Rookie QB, He will make mistakes, and I know the Chargers Defense is very, very good. Carr isn't going to throw for 2 TDs every game, and neither is Vick.

DO NOT make judgements on the first 2 games of the season. This argument shouldn't even be taking place until 2007 at least. The texans are 1-1, the falcons are 0-2, Michael Vick didn't throw a pick today. David Carr was kept in check all game by the Chargers. Again, This conversation is stupid, You can argue about college careers all you want, But until Carr and Vick both have 3-4 NFL seasons under their belt, You are doing nothing but predicting.

PhiSlammaJamma

09-16-2002, 08:35 AM

Hey moe, I doubt anybody here liked Gannon from the beginning :)

Timing

09-23-2002, 01:13 AM

Well Michael Vick looked pretty damn awesome tonight even if it was against the Bungals. I don't remember him being that accurate on his passes in college. Vick just has ability that Carr will never have. Damn he's exciting to watch!

RocketFan85

09-23-2002, 08:09 AM

Vick is the better QB, always was. Vick is one of a kind, I think the best to come out of college in the last 10 years. I am not saying Carr is bad, I think once we get a OL that will protect him and some WR that catch the ball he will put up numbers close to what Favre does.

moestavern19

09-23-2002, 01:44 PM

Rich Gannon is a perfect example of what happens when someone works their way up the ladder of the NFL, and gets shunned for Elvis Grbac. Nice Move Kansas City, You threw away a 2 time Pro Bowl MVP for Elvis... whatever happened to him? oh you went with Trent Green instead.

Bottom Line - The Bengals SUCK very very badly, and anyone who loses to them should hide their heads. Vick is running around the field like it's his own backyard and htting WR's like they were 2 yards in front of him.

Carr is getting no protection whatsoever and no help from his WR's.

kidrock8

09-23-2002, 01:54 PM

Moe- What you need to bear in mind is that Gannon is a product of the West Coast Offense, which has made just about every QB look good. Gannon is vastly overrated. He throws 5 yard passes that turn into 15=20 yard gains after the WRs catch and run. Gannon is incapable of making a play when he needs to ie. 3 and long, 4th and long, etc.

Gannon is a good QB, I admit, but he's not all that. The West Coast Offense even made Steve Bono look very good 11 years ago.

Bill Walsh should be paid money by every WCO QB and all of the coaches (Holmgren, Andy Reid, Shanahan, Mariucci, Gruden, etc.) who have used his offense to land them head coaching jobs.

PhiSlammaJamma

09-24-2002, 09:20 AM

I can respect guys like Gannon and Chandler who stunk for several years until they figured it out.

moestavern19

09-24-2002, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by kidrock8
Moe- What you need to bear in mind is that Gannon is a product of the West Coast Offense, which has made just about every QB look good. Gannon is vastly overrated. He throws 5 yard passes that turn into 15=20 yard gains after the WRs catch and run. Gannon is incapable of making a play when he needs to ie. 3 and long, 4th and long, etc.

Gannon is a good QB, I admit, but he's not all that. The West Coast Offense even made Steve Bono look very good 11 years ago.

Bill Walsh should be paid money by every WCO QB and all of the coaches (Holmgren, Andy Reid, Shanahan, Mariucci, Gruden, etc.) who have used his offense to land them head coaching jobs.

What the hell are you talking about? Tim Brown and Jerry Rice can't bounce off any hits, They catch the 8 yard out and get tackled right away they can't run for 10 yards after the catch.

How can you say Rich Gannon is overrated? So he has no arm, what the hell does it matter? He is 32-18 with the Raiders right now. Don't tell me he can't make plays, While he doesn't do it as much anymore, he can run for a 1st down. You watch this year, Charlie Garner will have a pro bowl Faulk-type season this year. Whatever Callahan did, he made Charlie Garner go insane, This guy had 1 TD all last year and now he 3 TDs in 2 games. Garner will carry the Raiders offense this year. 3800 yards passing, 27 TD's and 9 INT's last year. thats a 3-1 TD-INT ratio. He is a very underrated player. Look what he does in the Pro Bowl, Throws it to Tony Gonzalez for Quarter and a Half and gets the MVP award both times.

Gannon cannot throw the longball I admit it. But Gruden/Callahan were ingenious in hiding it. Did you see the Steelers Game? 3rd and like 25 from their own 10, they do a little shovel pass to Terry Kirby for 28 yards, 1st down. They went out and got a QB who can run their offense, Look what happened when they got Jeff George, Sure Tim Brown had 100 catches and 1400 yards but they sucked. Rich Gannon runs the WCO to perfection. And finally, We have the RB who can make plays. Brown and Rice will get their catches, Jerry Porter will assume the role of Successor to Rice. The Defense is finally here. We will go all the way this year.

NYKRule

07-28-2003, 09:31 PM

http://images.usatoday.com/sports/nfl/_photos5/2002-12-01-falconsw.jpg

Here's to another season full of that.

moestavern19

07-28-2003, 09:36 PM

Originally posted by moestavern19
Rich Gannon runs the WCO to perfection. And finally, We have the RB who can make plays. Brown and Rice will get their catches, Jerry Porter will assume the role of Successor to Rice. The Defense is finally here. We will go all the way this year.

I hate myself.

Oh and Michael Vick averaged 17.3 yards per carry against the Minnesota Vikings and then went on to Destroy the Green Bay Packers at Lambeau (predicted by yours truly)

Carr's got quite a lot to accomplish this season to keep up.

Oski2005

07-28-2003, 11:59 PM

Don't you just hate when old threads are brought back up and you don't like what you posted previously:)?

pgabriel

07-29-2003, 10:28 AM

I can't even believe this was an actual argument.

bamaslammer

07-29-2003, 10:34 AM

Vick.....no contest. The guy can run a 4.2 and has a damned howitzer for an arm. He is probably the most athletic quarterback ever.

Live

07-29-2003, 10:40 AM

In just a straight comparison, I'd go with Vick. He has more natural ability, even as a passer. (Understand that a Vick-Carr comparison is like deciding between a '65 Shelby Mustang & a '67 Camaro, you're still getting a cool a$$ Carr! (Couldn't resist) :D )

The thing that scares me about Vick & the Falcons (or any other team he could have played for) is the over-reliance on Vick & his abilities. I've always thought that was the big knock against Randall Cunningham & John Elway, they were so talented that their teams were tempted to just ride them to victory. But once they were surrounded by other hard-working players, BOOM...

That said, I'm very happy that Carr is a Texan.

Live

07-29-2003, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by kidrock8
Bill Walsh should be paid money by every WCO QB and all of the coaches (Holmgren, Andy Reid, Shanahan, Mariucci, Gruden, etc.) who have used his offense to land them head coaching jobs.

And then Walsh can take at least 50% of that money & give it to the family of Paul Brown.

You see, the West Coast offense started off as the "Ohio Valley" offense. Walsh was an assistant to Brown in Cincy (or Cleveland, not quite sure) & "borrowed" a lot of his ideas from Brown.

Just a little trivia to start off the morning.

MadMax

07-29-2003, 10:55 AM

Vick right now.

Who will have the better career?? Yet to be seen...a lot of factors come into play, particularly longevity/injuries, etc.

But I freaking love David Carr. He may be my favorite professional athlete right now.

rezdawg

07-29-2003, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by MadMax
Vick right now.

Who will have the better career?? Yet to be seen...a lot of factors come into play, particularly longevity/injuries, etc.

But I freaking love David Carr. He may be my favorite professional athlete right now.

My. Thoughts. Exactly.

Smallz88

07-29-2003, 03:30 PM

Wow, i cant even believe this arguement went 5 pages worth of bickering.. No way can anyone say Carr is better than Vick at this time, i dont even think Carr will be put in the same league as Vick 5 years from now, carr is still a good Qb but no contest.. sorry texans fans

MadMax

07-29-2003, 03:36 PM

i remember hearing that randall cunningham was going to be the greatest QB of all time..."the ultimate weapon." things don't always work out as they seem they will...

but mike vick is really fun to watch...and seems like a nice guy, too. i have no problem watching a guy like that win.

NYKRule

07-30-2003, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Smallz88
Wow, i cant even believe this arguement went 5 pages worth of bickering..

The entire thread took place in the first two weeks of the season.

rrj_gamz

07-30-2003, 05:35 PM

It's too early to call...

From a pure athletic standpoint, you'd have to go with Carr, however, the more and more Vick runs around, he's going to get stuck hard one time and he won't be the same...

I'll stick with Carr, although I'm a huge Texans fan...

;)

dwil8686

07-19-2004, 11:35 AM

It's about that time again. Is anyone out there still going with Carr?

Groogrux

07-19-2004, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by dwil8686
It's about that time again. Is anyone out there still going with Carr?

Yes.

PhiSlammaJamma

07-19-2004, 12:00 PM

Vick is a playmaker. He stands out for a reason. Carr may not even be better then Billy Volek, who was the reason he sat in college.

whag00

07-19-2004, 12:50 PM

I’ll still take Carr because Vick (with his scrambling style) is asking to have an injury-plagued career. But this is a big season for Carr. He needs to get his completion % over 60 and throw more touchdowns than int’s. If not expect this board as well as others and 610 to be flooded with “We should have kept Henson.”

I actually went back and read all the posts and I noticed that there is a lot more humor and sarcasm in the posts these days…

rrj_gamz

07-19-2004, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by rrj_gamz
It's too early to call...

From a pure athletic standpoint, you'd have to go with Carr, however, the more and more Vick runs around, he's going to get stuck hard one time and he won't be the same...

I'll stick with Carr, although I'm a huge Texans fan...

;)

Holy Crap!!! i was the last to post in 2003, now someone actually searched this...c'mon...

BTW, I'd still pick Carr, the injury to Vick proved it...Also, Carr better come up big this season...

Rocket Fan

07-19-2004, 02:28 PM

I was just about to start a thread on this subject.. well on carrs progress.. but I guess I'll go ahead and use this one...

what is everyones opinions on the good and bad of carr two years in..

things he's already improved on faster than you thought?

weaknesses that still need to be corrected?

I've seen as many games as I could, but being out of town haven't gotten to see all of them. I've liked what I've seen on him but wanted opinions from those who have seen all his games.

IROC it

07-19-2004, 05:11 PM

Carr

u851662

07-20-2004, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by rrj_gamz
Holy Crap!!! i was the last to post in 2003, now someone actually searched this...c'mon...

BTW, I'd still pick Carr, the injury to Vick proved it...Also, Carr better come up big this season...
What are you talking about, Carr was injured last season too. How can this not be obvious, Carr is a great talent, but its just once in every 50 years that you get a talent that of M.Vick, he makes you sit and watch the game as if he is B.Sanders or someone. I mean it would be a wonderful position to be in to pick between the two, but Vick is the obvious choice. He lead his team to the second round of the playoffs his first year as a fulltime starter. The kids was so impressive. Im my opinion Vick has already had a breakout season. Carr will have one too when this team is built with better athlete's and more depth, but we all know he cant make the miracles come true like M.Vick can. He's just a once in a generation player, like that of a B.Sanders...

UTKaluman597

07-20-2004, 10:07 AM

if you guys would seriously take Carr over Vick you seriously need to take off the homer glasses... Vick is changing the way the QB position is played. He is going to be the first qb to run for 1000+ yards and throw for 2000+ yards in a season.

MadMax

07-20-2004, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by UTKaluman597
if you guys would seriously take Carr over Vick you seriously need to take off the homer glasses... Vick is changing the way the QB position is played. He is going to be the first qb to run for 1000+ yards and throw for 2000+ yards in a season.

wait...vick is great. but let's don't annoint him yet. changing the way the position is played??? what..from the sideline watching in civilian clothes?

nWo34Life

07-20-2004, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by dwil8686
It's about that time again. Is anyone out there still going with Carr?

Yes. It's only been 2 years, and he has held his ground. The boy looks tough and is ready for this league. Now that he has some offense around him and the offensive line stronger than before, he's going to kick some serious ass.

rrj_gamz

07-20-2004, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by u851662
What are you talking about, Carr was injured last season too. How can this not be obvious, Carr is a great talent, but its just once in every 50 years that you get a talent that of M.Vick, he makes you sit and watch the game as if he is B.Sanders or someone. I mean it would be a wonderful position to be in to pick between the two, but Vick is the obvious choice. He lead his team to the second round of the playoffs his first year as a fulltime starter. The kids was so impressive. Im my opinion Vick has already had a breakout season. Carr will have one too when this team is built with better athlete's and more depth, but we all know he cant make the miracles come true like M.Vick can. He's just a once in a generation player, like that of a B.Sanders...

Hold on there hot rod...I agree in the s-t, Vick is the pick, but over the L-T, Carr is the guy...Carr was hurt, but not as bad as Vick...Also, Vick caused his own injury in the sense he runs around...it just caught up to him...

If you told me to pick the fastest, then of course, I'd pick Vick, but we're talking to build a franchise, right...

u851662

07-20-2004, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by rrj_gamz
Hold on there hot rod...I agree in the s-t, Vick is the pick, but over the L-T, Carr is the guy...Carr was hurt, but not as bad as Vick...Also, Vick caused his own injury in the sense he runs around...it just caught up to him...

If you told me to pick the fastest, then of course, I'd pick Vick, but we're talking to build a franchise, right...

I dont know man, I think the other guy is right. Vick is going to revolutionize the way the QB position is played. He can beat you with his arm or his legs. Injury's happen, I would much rather my QB get hurt by making plays (that he is by far capable of making) Than sitting in the pocket and not being able to get away. Remember Troy Aikman, Steve Young and a few others retired because they couldnt get away. S-T vs. L-T? I would still take Vick, cause in the NFL nothing is guarenteed. Lineman are running 4.6 - 4.5's now. All that sitting in the pocket is cute and all but you also have to know when to go. I can honestly say Mike Vick in every game I have seen him does not bail out of the pocket prematurely only when he needs to make the plays the rest of his team isnt. But on a side note while we debate this, I have seen D.Carr cut the corner a few times and said to myself (that boy kinda runs like a brotha) like the time he shook the dude at the Goal line and dove in for the TD. I think that was against New Orleans last season. Like ai said Carr has game, but Vick has MAD Game!

pgabriel

07-20-2004, 08:33 PM

Before the Texans started playing, from about 1999-2001, my friends would all watch NFL games at one particular friend's apartment. He had NFL League Pass and we mainly watched Titan games but occassionally flipped channels to watch other teams. When Michael Vick was drafted, we always stopped when Atlanta had the ball on offense and watched to see if Michael Vick was playing.

After his rookie season, Bill Simmons from espn.com's page 2 wrote one of his random thoughts columns. One of his random thoughts was that when ever he was watching football on League Pass he always stopped to watch to see if Michael Vick was on the field.

David Carr might well be the second best young quarterback in the NFL. But its not a close race. Michael Vick is a special athlete. I wrote this in another thread, that the only athlete of the past twenty five years that was just more exciting to watch is Michael Jordan. For those of you who say you would take Carr over Vick, you are not even being homers, you're just being stupid. This is a silly argument. Madmax wrote that everyone would have taken Randall Cunningham when he was young and his career didn't really pan out. Cunningham still won 2 league MVPs without panning out. I'll take those chances. If Vick only has 5 good years, I'll take those five good years over Carr's potential whole career.

drapg

07-20-2004, 08:35 PM

Damn, I don't even remember starting this thread!!!

2 years later and I still pick Vick in a landslide.

moligity

07-20-2004, 11:01 PM

I love Carr (I'm a Texan fan) and I think he will be a top five QB eventually, but Mike Vick is flat out a better football player.

He changes everything for opposing defenses; I bet if you poll 32 NFL defensive coordinators: "who would you rather face?" I think 32 of them would answer Carr.

The falcons were 2-10 without Vick and 3-1 with Vick; they were 8-5-1 with him in 2002 with a win in Green Bay in the playoffs. The straight up facts. Don't forget he took VT to the NC his freshman year.

I love Carr and his potential, but Vick wins whereever he's been. And it's silly to argue that the Falcons are a veteran team or somehow have a better supporting cast.

But I'de still bet that the Texans win a Super Bowl before the Falcons.