Old timer's Astros perspective

[bobrek]

Pardon my reminiscing:

Of late there have been a number of comments complaing about McLane and the Astros lack of playoff success. I suspect that most of the complainers are well under 30. Those of you who have been following the Astros since the mid-80's are truly spoiled. In the past decade the Astros have one of the best records in the major leagues, which, unfortunately, hasn't equated itself to playoff victories. Granted, we all want the championship, but there can only be one team. While the Astros have never opened up the checkbook as much as other teams, their payroll continues to be in the middle of the pack. Let's put things in perspective.

I have been following the Astros since their inception as the Colt .45's. One of my fondest memories as a six year old was going to Colt Stadium and sitting in an enclosed area and getting to eat all of the fried chickena and drink all of the red soda water I could handle. Truly a special moment (although my sister could care less).

The Astros did not have a winning season until the 70s. Their first .500 season was 1969 when they finished 81-81. That year they started out 4-20 with their 20th loss being a no-hitter by Jim Maloney. The next night, the late Don Wilson threw a no-hitter and a magical season began. The Astros were actually in a pennant race in September. They faded down the stretch, but it was a glorious season. If you have never read the book, Ball Four, by Jim Bouton, I highly recommend it. You will gain a unique perspective on Astros baseball.

The Astros had some success in the 70s but never won a title. Their first division championship was in 1980. It was a great playoff series with the Phillies, but Nolan Ryan and the bullpen could not hold a lead late in game 7. 1981 brought about another playoff apprearance due to the strike shortened season. The Astros and Dodgers played a best of 5 sereis to see who would represent the Western division. The Astros took a 2-0 series lead, but lost the final three games. Then came 1986. Another magical season. Due to an out of town commitment, I had to give up my 2 tickets to Mike Scott's pennant clinching no-hitter. Fortunantely we gave them to my mother-in-law and my wife's grandmother - Gahm. Gahm said that it was one of the most thrilling experiences of her life. We lost her not too long after that, so I always feel blessed that I was able to give up those tickets. Again, another depressing playoff loss occurred.

That was pretty much it until the early 90's. Actually, the turning point, in my opinion, came in 1992. The Astros (not yet a good team) had to go on a long road trip due to the Republican National Convention taking up the Dome. Their trip was highly successful and seemed to be the start of their success the past 10 years.

They have now made the playoffs 4 of the past 5 years, again, the lack of playoff success is heartbreaking but the overall triumphs far outweigh the losses.

I just find it hard to empathize with the whiners and complainers. I followed this team for 18 years before they even got into the playoffs. I'd go to bed at night with my transistor radio under my pillow so I could listen to the game.

To all of you whiners, if you want an owner who has unlimited money, follow the Yankees. If you want to follow a team that for the past TEN years, year in and year out has given the city of Houston some excitement and does it with generally a good group of guys that don't cause embarassment to the city, follow the Astros.

If you read this long, beware, I may start my Oilers reminiscing next (Oh, that AFL championship game in 1962 against the Dallas Texans)....

[DAROckets]

Nice post..Thanks for sharing.

I don't go back that far.My first memories are of going to the dome as a young kid and CRUUUUUUUUUUUZ across the old scoreboard...that was also magical to me ...I've been hooked on the Stros ever since..win or lose I wouldn't trade my team for any other.

[Raven Lunatic]

Those are some great memories, bobrek. I myself am not at all an old timer. I don't have a full appreciation for what the Astros have done the past 10 years, but I am thankful for it. I can't remember the exact year, but I do remember that the first baseball game I ever attended was the Astros vs. the Reds. I did not have a very good working knowledge of the players at that time, so I can't even tell you who pitched for the Astros that day, but I do remember that Glen Wilson, in the bottom of the 9th with 2 outs and the Astros down 1, hit a 3 run walk off homer that had all the fans in the Astrodome on their feet screaming their heads off. That was a great moment, and one that probably started my love affair with Astros baseball.

[giddyup]

I remember the Colt 45s. I remember the hubub when they changed the team name to Astros.

I seem to remember going to an Astros-Reds game when Pete Rose was a rookie. I remember once he got a walked and "hustled" down to first base. A murmur arose in the stands around me about what a hot-dog the kid was...

[MadMax]

Great post!!

I agree entirely. I'm 27 years old...baseball was my favorite sport growing up...so I remember many Astro disappointments. This is clearly the greatest era in Astro history...that's why I'm not a McLane complainer!

[haven]

Great post, bobrek. Always good to hear of memories. There's something incredibly special about baseball history, that isn't rivaled by any other sport in the US...

[Buck Turgidson]

Great post bobrek. I'm only 27, so most of my Astros memories have been good ones. I don't remember much from '80 & '81 playoffs, otherr than crying after the 'Stros lost. I was there in '83 when Ryan broke Walter Johnson's strikeout mark (still have the souvenier ball they gave out), & in '84 when Dickie Thon, one of my favorite players, got beaned (I'll never forget watching him get carried off on a stretcher, & waving to the applauding crowd as he left the field), but '86 was the year I became a baseball fan for life. I got to see the All-Star game in the Dome & Scotty's no-hitter, which was definitely as exciting as your relatives said. Then there was Game 6, without a doubt the best baseball game I've ever seen, live or on TV. We were sitting in the Loge behind home plate, with an almost direct view down the 3rd base line, & the hush that came over the crowd for 1-2 seconds before Hatcher's blast hit the fair pole, & the ensuing jubilation, were amazing to witness in person.

[bobrek]

I was actually in about the 4th row of the field boxes when Thon was hit. It was a horrible sound. As an aside, a female comic once said that "Dickie Thon" sounded like a fund raiser for horny women.

We were at the Astros-Mets playoff series as well. There was a book written about game 6 called something like "The greatest game ever played".

During game one 1 of the series, someone tried to steal my wife's firebird from the dome parking lot. The crack Astrodome security squad prevented the theft (although the steering column was busted). We wandered through the lot for about 30 minutes and could not find the car. To prevent a further theft attempt, the security folks had towed it up onto the grass.

[MadMax]

Game 1 was awesome that year!! Actually every game was great that year. I remember sitting on the couch with my dad and jumping up and down when Davis hit that homer off Gooden. Scott was absolutely untouchable!

Game 6 was just unreal. I have that book, bobrek. It's a great read...covers the whole series in depth, off the field and on the field. His point is that all those factors considered, it's the greatest game in the history of all sports. Pretty interesting read, particularly as an Astros' fan. I remember nearly crying seeing Bill Doran (my boyhood idol!) in the dugout after the game. What a rollercoaster ride of a game that was!!

My father was at a game once in the Dome where a lady was hit hard by a foul ball...that was bad enough...the ushers (in their red coats!) started carrying her out...before they could get her out of the stadium, another foul ball hit her..while she was being helped out!!!

I was at the game back in 94 when Bags hit 3 homers...2 in the same inning!!!

I was at a Dodger/Astro game once with my dad that went 20 something innings...we left after 17 innings!! It was a Friday night in the middle of the summer, so no need to wake up early the next day!

I remember going on the field for a pre-game clinic with Terry Puhl and some others when I was in Cub Scouts! :)

The Astros rock!!! I love that team!!! My best Astro game ever though was last year on Opening Day...took my son to his first game ever and went with my father. Three generations enjoying Opening Day together!! Really just a great day!!!

[Buck Turgidson]

What's the name of the book & who's the author? Definitely something I'd like to read.

[bobrek]

Here you go Buck:

http://www.astrosdaily.com/files/books/

The particular book is "The Greatest Game Ever Played". There are a number of other books of interest here as well.

My advice is to start with Ball Four. A very funny book.

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally posted by bobrek
Here you go Buck:

http://www.astrosdaily.com/files/books/

The particular book is "The Greatest Game Ever Played". There are a number of other books of interest here as well.

My advice is to start with Ball Four. A very funny book.

Thanks. I've read Ball Four; I've got the latest version where he talks about his daughter's death, very heartbreaking stuff.

[BobFinn*]

Another book to check out is Leo Durocher's "Nice Guys Finish Last." Great book about Leo's life in baseball. He started in the Major Leagues as a rookie on the 1927 Yankees with Ruth and Gehrig, many experts call this the greatest team in baseball history.

His baseball career ended in 1973 as manager of the Houston Astros. He had retired in 1969 after his Cub team collapsed and watched the Mets win the World Series. He was talked out of retirement by his good friend and Astros GM Spec Richardson. The thing that really sparked Leo's interest was a young player the Astros had that many people compared to Willie Mays. His name was Cesar Cedeno.

Anyway, he talks about his time as manager of the Astros in the last 2 chapters of the book. Very good read.

[Behad]

Great posts, everyone! Slap those whiners down HARD!

1986 was a special year. I watched Game 1 while at "The Jalapeno Tree" on Nasa Rd 1, and saw every single pitch of game six from my couch. It was absolutely riveting baseball.

I love baseball!

[Saint Louis]

Ah, memories of dome baseball with the scoreboard. To be able to go back again and watch the scoreboard explode after an Astros homerun, which were rare back then. Pitching, speed, defense and those rainbow uniforms.

Four out of five years in the playoffs isn't too shabby. It only takes one magical season for a team to become "clutch". This season could still be the big one for the Astros. Lots of games to play between now and October.

1980 NLCS. So close. If J.R. Richards hadn't suffered that stroke. Oh what might have been.

[Deckard]

Great post, bobrek, and from all of you. I went to that 20-something inning game with my Dad, and we stayed to the very end. Didn't we win? My Mom almost freaked because we were out so late at a " ...baseball game??" We also went to those early Oiler games. Saw Blanda kick the first 50 yard fieldgoal in Pro history. Great memories! Colt Stadium was also famous for it's numerous and rabid mosquito's. :)

[bobrek]

Yeah, we were at the 24 inning game in 1968 with my mom's uncles from Michigan. They really wanted to see the exploding scoreboard. Unfortunately we left after 22 innings. One of the reasons they now rake the field every 5 innings is due to that game. They only raked after the 5th inning. There was a bad hop grounder to Bud Harrelson in the 24th (I think Aspromonte hit it), that led to the Astros 1-0 victory. The Mets complained about the field conditions afterwards.

[BobFinn*]

Remember the guys that used to rake the infield at the Dome? Those orange space suits with the helmets and everything?


damn I feel old :cool:

[Deckard]

The Judge was a real showman. Had all sorts of crazy ideas... some were great, like the scoreboard. The ground crew thing was nuts, and must have been uncomfortable as hell for them. But pretty funny!

I feel old as well :(

[Dreamshake]

Since I have been the greatest, and maybe only McLane Basher this last week, Ill take this a finger pointed in my whining face.

I too have fond memories. I remember the Days of Enos Cabell. I may not be as long an Astros fan, but I went to my first game in 81. All I can recall of that game was that the Good guys lost to the Pad's in a battle of ugliest uniforms ever. My mom has a great picture of me in a tee shirt from that game. Flaming baseball with Astros in the middle.

My very first sports memorabilia, came from waiting for my favorite player to come out and sign my glove. Which Jose Cruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuzzz did for me. I slept with the glove for many nights, and didnt play a little league game for years without it. It was my power.

Mike Bass was my second favorite player for a while. I remember the feeling of anger knowing Dickie Thon would never be the same. I remember laughing at Gary Carter bitch about Mike Scott's splitter in the 86 series (to me still the greatest playoff series ever.) Ive been through lots of mediocre years, a few 90 loss seasons. Working on 21 years of cheering for the Stro's. Every day I go into work explaining to my friend why the Stros will win more games than the Mets this year.

Please, dont question my loyalty, or ease of loving a winning team. To me team comes waaaaaaaaay before the owner ever will.

Ive never complained about the players in here. No Bagwell sucks in the playoffs, no Biggio is a choke artist.

You want to win a championship? Look at the payrolls of the teams that have been there since early to mid 90's (winners and losers) Tell me what the common denominator is? Times have changed. You want to be a middle of the road payroll team, and still expect playoff success, ask all the other pretenders out there if its possible.

My gripe with McLane was strickly his promise to spend the money once he got his toy-AFUS. Then as soon as it was built, turned and capped the team. In essence lying. There isnt one of you out there who wouldnt trade McLane for Georgie, or Ted Turner a few years ago. I know big payroll doesnt guarantee success in all cases (ack Rangers ack). But it doesnt hurt. Ask the future Astros orginization, the A's if its going to work, and Im sure they'll say yes. But whats happened to them the last 2 years. Baseball isnt like the other sports because it doesnt have a cap. And untill it gets one, big spenders are going to win, and thats that. I had no gripe with McLane till first year of Enron, and I read an article that claimed the Stros would be capped. To me, he lied to the people of Houston, and sucker punched the fans. Yeah, we had crappier owners in Houston, but that no excuse.

Regardless of whos the owner, Ill always believe the Stros are the best team in baseball. Because they are my favorite team. Ive never not watched a game of theirs and believed they were going to lose (if you dont count the playoffs). I have and always will be their biggest fan. As a fan, I have the right to bitch about McLane If I want too. Did you ever complain about Derek Bell love to swing at anything, or Bob Kneppers inability to win a big game, or heck if your that old school Rusty Staubs blazing speed down the first base line? If not then you have the right to call someone a whiner or complainer.

Obviously we are all Astro fans. A very rare breed if you dont live in the Houston Area. Keep labels to someone else. You cheer or jeer whoever you want. I wont call you any less an Astro fan. Especially if you decide to jeer a non player.

[bobrek]

Your second favorite player's name was Kevin Bass not Mike Bass.
By the way, I'd still like to see you address one issue which I have posted before, but none of the McLane complainers ever respond to.

The Astros organization from top to bottom has generally been recognized as one of the best in baseball. Last year they were voted the best by 4 major baseball related organizations. They are generally regarded as being ahead of eveyone in Venezuela nad have run a very successful baseball academy there that has produced a number of excellent major leaguers. All of that takes the owner's money. The Astros have chosen to take the path of developing their own players as opposed to sigining high-priced free agents. Why do none of the McLane bashers ever acknowledge the fact that he spends his money developing their farm system and scouting departments?

[Raven Lunatic]

This is something I remember Major posting in another thread debate that, ironically, none of the McClane bashers acknowledged either. The last season at the Astrodome, McClane actually DID raise payroll. I forget by how much, but I think it was down in the lower 50 mil or so. Everyone looks at what Drayton did AFTER we moved to AFUS, but the truth is that he raised the payroll BEFORE because he thought it would be good to have a competitive team going into the new field, and not after. Drayton kept his promise, he just didn't do it in a way that you might have thought he would.

Also, Dreamshake...you must not have been reading this forum much lately if you think you are the only one bashing McClane. Before you just assume that a post is a "finger pointed in your whining face" you might want to "check the record." ;)

[CAKoudelka]

I guess you can put my name in the McLane Bashers hat, I havent done it in this forum, but I dislike Drayton as much as the next basher.

I am 27, and havent been around as long as most, but you know what, that doesnt make me any less of a fan than someone who has been around since Jesus walked the Earth. My dad has been aournd since the 45's, he sat in that open air stadium, and has told me about it all. He also says year in and year out that the Astros havent ever done anything and wont ever do anything, and every year they end up laying down in the playoffs.

Every year when spring training rolls around, this cycle starts over, I get excited, and he reminds me of last year. I dont care though, I love my team, and will root for them regardless, and hope that they do eventyally win something before Biggio and Bagwell have to hang them up.

I used to watch the Rockets, and they were in the same kinda boat, they had some years of good and even great playoffs, but they never could get over the hump. Then Les Alexander rolls into town, and he allows the shackles to be taken off the team and they go out and make some moves, get some players, and what happens, we win two championships. This is why I love Les, he isnt afraid to go out and get somebody, bring in a big name, open up that wallet. Drayton is so worried about spending a dime. I believe the saying is, "you have to spend money to make money" and granted, he maybe making money hand over fist, but he could be making more if his teams could get past the first round of the playoffs

Fact is, there are fairweather fans everywhere, and if you ever wanna get those fans out to spend money, you gotta win, and not just during the regular season, hell look at the Rockets again, that place was sold out for a few years there, and its cause they went out and won, attendance is back down, and the "Be Seen" fans are gone, but you know what, I believe the Rockets and Les will turn that ship around before the Astros win a Championship, I believe that 100%. Thats where it all starts with the owner, if he is afraid to allow his general manager to go out and field a team, well then, dont plan on winning much.

I will say this, we have been very fortunate the past 5 years, we have seen winning baseball, and its been nothing but exciting, but, I just think its a shame Drayton wont go out and spend a lil money, and not just for half a season (Randy Johnson, Pedro Astacio) I would love to see this team make a run at Pudge, or go after a big pithcer, and REALLY go after them, not some made up offer they like to throw at us. Is it so much to ask to wanna be excited that way, I dont think so, but hey, I am under 30, what do I know

[bobrek]

What big name free agents have the Rockets signed under Les Alexander? I don't believe the Rockets will be subject to the luxury tax so they certainly aren't over the cap as some teams (such as Portland). For all intents and purposes, Pippen and to a lesser extent, Willis (the first time) are the only big name FAs the Rockets have recently acquired (even though Pippen was officially a sign and trade). Neither one stuck around long enough to make major impacts.

A number of folks thought the Rockets would actively pursue Webber, but it didn't happen. Back in their 2 championship seasons, there were no FAs of note except for Elie and he was a minor acquisition.

I don't have problems or issues with Rockets management, but I disagree that Alexander has 'opened that wallet'.

I still would like to know what McLane could have done differently in the 4 playoff years to affect the outcome of a series. The lack of Kile, Johnson and Hampton wasn't the problem, especially considering Mlicki loses 1-0 at home. It was the lack of hitting that had existed during the regular season.

There are 2 instances that stick out in my mind which could have dramatically changed the Astros playoff fortunes.

In 1999 Eusebio blisters the ball up the middle with the bases loaded in extra innings. The Braves make a great play to cut off the run and eventually win the game.

Dierker's decision last year to use Jackson instead of Dotel to protect the lead in game one.

Who knows, a different result may have led to different outcomes.

[Dreamshake]

boberek. Your right it was Kevin Bass. I wrote that post at about 4 oclock in the morning. Im allowed to fudge a name. For a team that is ahead of everyone in Venezuela. How many are on the Astro's team? What two, soon to be one? How about giving me the links to the 4 orginizations that list the Stros as the best orginization in Baseball. That should make interesting reading since the Yankees have only one 5 of the last 7 world series, the Braves have been to more than we could wish for, The A's have developed more pitching in one year than some teams manage to develope in a decade. The Indians have a winning orginization and almost constat sell outs. What is the prerequisite for being the top orginization in baseball? Developing talent? Doesnt matter when Drayton keeps on capping, and keeps on letting talent walk away. You say that I havent addressed your points. I did several times in the last thread. No reply to my points that Salary only skyrocketed because of Bagwell, Biggio, and Reynolds deals. How about the point that I made about 3-4 years down the road. Yes we have some nice young talent now, but is McLane going to pony up for Hidalgo, Ward, Berkman, Everett, Miller, Oswalt, Hernanadez? Assuming all of those players become kick butt types, do you really believe that come contract time we will keep 70 percent of them, how about 50 percent, maybe 2 or so of them. What about Dotel too? Hes been a better pitcher than anyone on the Stros staff the last year. Hes going to want money too.

It doesnt matter if we develope the talent, have all the scouts, and baseball camps if as soon as they become great players, we wont pay them to stay Astros.

Raven....Nope, that post was directed to me. Ill get the "No it wasnt, it was for all the bashers" but I know for the most part who that was directed towards. I did in fact acknowledge McLanes so called payroll raising over the last few years in the Dome.

1. The Stro's payroll was such a dump to begin with. It couldn't do anything but look like it was skyrocketing.
2. Bagwell, Biggio, and Reynolds new contracts alone made it seem like payroll skyrocketed. What was McLane going to do? Not resign Bagwell or Biggio. Those two make almost 20 million a year. Throw in Reynolds and his 6-7 million and there is half your 50 million payroll. Make a goliath of a mistake like Signing Lima (yes even then I knew it was a mistake) to a super big contract. Whats left of that 50-60 million now?

As rocket fans we love to rag on the Clippers orginization as one that builds up the talent to let it go to other teams in order to save payroll. What Has Drayton done to show the astros are any different. He kept Bagwell, Biggio, and Billy. Not doing so would of murder any chances of him getting any attendance. Oops, looks like 80 dollar sweaters, and 4 dollar waters already are doing that. Didnt look like the big series with the Cardinals helped out the astros attendance very much.

I know some of you are just tickled to death that he managed to get you AFUS, and would pledge allegiance to him for doing so. I could care less if the Stros played in a sand lot, as long as it was trying to win the championship, not doing whatever it took just make the profit margin a little higher.

[haven]

Dreamshake:

Even by Forbes #'s, the Astros didn't make that much. The team would not be substantially better even if he did spend all of the margin.

Incidentally, what makes you think that McClane isn't spending now so that he'll be able to resign talent in a couple years? Maybe it's just cyclical. You save money when talent is young, so you can spend a little extra when it comes to fruition.

[Groogrux]

Which player that we lost, outside of Johnson (who wasn't coming back anyway), would've won us a championship?

The A's have developed more pitching in one year than some teams manage to develope in a decade.

Bang up job of keeping your best player. Bet it'll be hard for them to keep Mulder, Zito, and Hudson when the time comes.

The Indians have a winning orginization and almost constat sell outs.

Indians have won how many championships.

is McLane going to pony up for Hidalgo...

I believe we've got Doggy under contract for awhile.

Yes we have some nice young talent now...Everett...

You OK with the Everett trade now?

What about Dotel too? Hes been a better pitcher than anyone on the Stros staff the last year. Hes going to want money too.

So was the Hampton trade OK now?

Four out of the past five years, this team has been good enough to make the playoffs. Blame us not winning one on our players disappearing in the playoffs, not the owner who is paying their salaries.

[Major]

Developing talent? Doesnt matter when Drayton keeps on capping, and keeps on letting talent walk away.

Dude, what talent has he let walk away? Alou? Injured. Hampton? Sucks (home and away). Everett? Sucks. Bell? Sucks. Gutierrez? Mediocre. Kile? Mediocre. Randy Johnson is the only one that really got away, and he was never ours in the first place.

You say that I havent addressed your points. I did several times in the last thread.

No, you didn't. You haven't named a single thing that Drayton should have done, unless you really think it would have been better to have players like Everett and Derek Bell over Ward and Berkman. Or maybe you prefer Kile over Oswalt?

No reply to my points that Salary only skyrocketed because of Bagwell, Biggio, and Reynolds deals.

What's your point here? That's how ALL salaries rise, outside of signing overpriced free agents (see Hampton, Mike). The Yankees skyrocketted by re-signing Bernie Williams, Jeter, Rivera, Clemens, etc. How is this unique, exactly?

How about the point that I made about 3-4 years down the road. Yes we have some nice young talent now, but is McLane going to pony up for Hidalgo, Ward, Berkman, Everett, Miller, Oswalt, Hernanadez?

On one hand, you admin that we re-signed all of our best homegrown players (Biggio, Bagwell, Hidalgo, Reynolds, Wagner, etc). On the other, you say you know we won't in 4 years. That makes sense. You do realize what when those guys come up for long-term deals, players like Biggio and Bagwell and Reynolds will be retiring, right?

The A's have developed more pitching in one year than some teams manage to develope in a decade

You realize we've developed just as much, if not more pitching? We even traded away half of our farm system to get players like Alou and Randy Johnson... Of course, that's probably not a commitment to winning either.

1. The Stro's payroll was such a dump to begin with. It couldn't do anything but look like it was skyrocketing.

The Astros played in one of the oldest parks in baseball and had a salary range in the middle of the league. Hmmm.

2. Bagwell, Biggio, and Reynolds new contracts alone made it seem like payroll skyrocketed. What was McLane going to do? Not resign Bagwell or Biggio. Those two make almost 20 million a year. Throw in Reynolds and his 6-7 million and there is half your 50 million payroll. Make a goliath of a mistake like Signing Lima (yes even then I knew it was a mistake) to a super big contract. Whats left of that 50-60 million now?


And yet, you sit here and think we should resign MORE players like that in Hampton, Everett, Johnson, Kile, etc. Keep in mind that NONE of these players helped us win a playoff game. We're 2-12, and the two wins were by the one pitcher we kept (Reynolds).

I could care less if the Stros played in a sand lot, as long as it was trying to win the championship,

Yeah, that's it. They are only fielding the best teams in team history, and top 3 teams in the league. They make midseason trades to cover any weaknesses and consistently win their division. But no, they are not trying to win a championship. :rolleyes:

Come back when you actually have an idea of what you think Drayton SHOULD have done.

[Dreamshake]

<i> Which player that we lost, outside of Johnson (who wasn't coming back anyway), would've won us a championship? </i>

I dont know, but I bet a team that featured Carl Everett, Moises Alou, Daryl Kile, Mike Hampton, and possibly Randy Johnson to go along with Bagwell, Biggio, Berkman, Hidalgo, and Wagner would be a real tough team to contend with now.

<i> Bang up job of keeping your best player. Bet it'll be hard for them to keep Mulder, Zito, and Hudson when the time comes. </i>

Exactly. Any different than sending our best player (at the time) away in Everett when he wanted to stay, and he was being a good guy. Or Hampton when he was our best pitcher. (I wont fall for the he just wanted to leave skit. If he got a great offer, and didnt have to wait to watch as the Stros basically offered it to Lima and calling him their ace, he is still a Astro). Alou was getting older, but each year his numbers were getting better. We let him go on the premise of Age. Yep look at what age are doing to Barry, Clemens, and Alomar.

<i> Indians have won how many championships. </i>

Indians have won how many more playoff series, and been to how many more championships? All this while being a albatross of an orginization for the most part of two decades, and not getting started till the Mid 90's on righting that ship


<i> I believe we've got Doggy under contract for awhile. </i>

Yep sure do. A few years. Till about the time when all our other young guys are going to be wanting contracts. You cut out the gist of the statement. So Ill say again is Drayton going to shell out for all those players if things go well in their careers?

<i> You OK with the Everett trade now? </i>

No not really, but Carl Everett isnt an Astro, Adam Everett is. Im still not on his band wagon yet. Till he proves the Mendoza line isnt where hes going to hover for a career B.A. Cause if thats the case, we could of kept Russ Johnson there and kept Carl.

<i> So was the Hampton trade OK now? </i>

Again not really. Not unless you like giving up 20 game winners, and a .300 hitter, and a solid fielder, and a guy who'll go out and throw a rabid fan to the ground, for some great middle relief. But Hampy isnt an Astro anymore, and Dotel is. Who do you think Im rooting for?

Haven...Personally, I hope your right. My greatest fear is watching these young Astros, grow into being these great former Astro players. You know the sportscenter special like they did with Expos of a few years ago. "Remember when the Expos had. Larry Walker, Moises Alou, Randy Johnson...ect ect ect"

I have no problem with the team at hand. I didnt like some of the moves. But my problem isnt that they went for younger home grown product. Its that I felt like the Orginization was just trying to save the money, not put the best product on the field.

Yep, Kile sucks outside of Coors field. - Stupid.
Yep Everett Sucks-3-4 solid years, and one bad injury filled one, but he sucks- Even more stupid.
Yep Alou sucks-3 years of near 330 average, about 30 homer average, and 120-130 rbis a year. Damn he sucks
Yep Hampy sucks. Maybe its Coors field. You think....maybe. But any pitcher who can possibly (outside of coors field) win 20 games every year, bat .300, and contend for gold gloves every year must suck.

Or maybe your Drayton googles are on just a tad too tight. AFUS is really neat to look at I bet though.

[Deckard]

Wow, I was just thinking about the old days (and I'm not older than Jesus or whatever), but there's some stuff flying around now that I could go both ways on. I'm very worried if we're going to keep our great young pitchers or not... and I also thought McLane would open his wallet some more after we got the new digs. Have to wait and see. I think getting Williams was a good move. How much was his contract? If we get past the first round this year, a lot of these arguments will go away. Bags and Biggio will get that giant monkey off their backs as well.

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally posted by Dreamshake
Cause if thats the case, we could of kept Russ Johnson there and kept Carl.

That quote alone tells me all I need to know about your baseball acumen.

[Major]

I dont know, but I bet a team that featured Carl Everett, Moises Alou, Daryl Kile, Mike Hampton, and possibly Randy Johnson to go along with Bagwell, Biggio, Berkman, Hidalgo, and Wagner would be a real tough team to contend with now.

We already had that team in 1998 (minus Kile) and it got slaughters by the Padres. Nice try, but your strategy produces the same results for more money. Good job.

Cause if thats the case, we could of kept Russ Johnson there and kept Carl.

You still haven't seemed to figure out Russ Johnson was never a shortstop.

Haven...Personally, I hope your right. My greatest fear is watching these young Astros, grow into being these great former Astro players. You know the sportscenter special like they did with Expos of a few years ago. "Remember when the Expos had. Larry Walker, Moises Alou, Randy Johnson...ect ect ect"

The difference is that we replaced those players with better players. Berkman and Ward are better than Alou and Everett. Oswalt and Miller are better than Hampton and Kile. Why you prefer keeping more expensive, older, and worse players over young, good, and cheap players, I don't know. The Expos had their special because they let those players go and replaced them with a bunch of no-names.

Yep Alou sucks-3 years of near 330 average, about 30 homer average, and 120-130 rbis a year. Damn he sucks

Who said he sucked? However, Berkman, Ward, or Hidalgo all give similar production and aren't as injury prone. Again, good/cheap/healthy/young vs good/expensive/injured/old -- which do you prefer?

Yep Hampy sucks. Maybe its Coors field. You think....maybe.

No I don't. Hampton had no problems at Coors field for 2-3 months last year. After that, he started sucking EVERYWHERE and hasn't stopped since. As much as you'd like to throw money at him, his 9.00 or whatever ERA this year is not worth $15,000,000.

[CAKoudelka]

bobrek:

I think the acquisitions of these players, regardless of it being through FA or Drafting certainly raised the level of talent on the team and, at the very least, got the attention of the fans, and showed that Les was able to at least make an attempt in trying to stir up some excitment, in my opinion of course:

Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Scottie Pippen, Steve Francis, Maurice Taylor and to an extent Eddie Griffin

I am not saying Les is God, but what I am saying is, I wish Les owned the Astros, I personally think it might be a better organization. In you opinion you think Les doesnt allow Rudy and Carroll free range in getting the players they feel will help the team? I think he does, but I dont think Drayton allows Gerry to go out and get who he wants.

I am not saying we have a gawd awful team, I like the team we have, and enjoy seeing people come up through the minors and make the big league team, I just think Drayton could have done some things differently. People are saying Hampton and Kile suck, but I would take either of those guys over Mlicki right now.

To me, it just seems everytime there is a chance at a player who could potetially come in and bring some excitment the way Randy Johnson did, there is always a problem and an excuse as to why we couldnt keep said player, or the minute a player gets to expensive for the team, they are gone. I dont like it, and I know its supposed to be "business" but as a fan of the team, I would like to see them go out and "do something"

I dont really know, you can call me a whiner, I just like to see a commitment to winning at any cost, Drayton doesnt display that to me. Gerry has done a wonderful job with getting us to the playoffs each year, I give him all the credit. I just think if he had a little more wiggling room, he could do something special

[bobrek]

Dreamshake

As I directly responded to you in the "Forbes" thread, here are the 4 organizations (this was for the 2001 year):

Topps, Baseball Weekly, Baseball America and SportsTicker

Here is a link to the 'Topps' article which mentions the other awards:

http://houston.astros.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/hou/news/hou_news_story.jsp?article_id=hou_20011217_topps_news&team_id=hou

Here are some current major leaguers from their baseball academy in Venezuela:

Hidalgo
Garcia
Guillen
Hernandez
Abreu

Garcia and Guillen allowed Houston to make the Johnson trade. Losing Abreu in the expansion draft was Hunsicker's biggest mistake (bad decision, not due to money). There are others in their minor league system.

It seems you complain about them losing Hampton but in so doing they acquired Dotel who in your own words has "been a better pitcher than anyone on the Stros staff the last year".

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally posted by CAKoudelka
I just like to see a commitment to winning at any cost, Drayton doesnt display that to me.

That's the problem right there. Wayne Huizenga had a "commitment to winning at any cost", and he ruined that franchise for the following 10-15 years. Baseball is a business, always has been, always will be. Why do you expect businessmen to throw all the principles of running any successful business out the window?

Here's my take on the 'Stros organization from an earlier thread (lots of other good posts in there too, give it a read if you haven't already):

http://bbs.clutchcity.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31013

What's wrong w/ a little fiscal responsibility? Did anyone really expect the Astros to spend $90 M on payroll like the Dogers, Yanks & others? Everyone likes to bitch & moan about the Yankees "buying" the WS every year, but then at the same time they bitch because the Astros don't do the same thing. Face it, Houston is a mid-market city; the Astros simply do not receive the revenue from TV & radio contracts to "pony up" the same kind of cash. Florida tried, & look what happened to that franchise. Arizona spent big bucks & it paid off short-term, but the D-Backs have SERIOUS financial problems & will be, after the current crop of veterans retire or are no longer productive, basically screwed for the forseeable future. Tom Hicks has been throwing around $$$ like a monkey flinging sh*t for the last 3 years, where's that gotten the Rangers? How about the Orioles?

The Astros are a model MLB franchise: spend resonably (& w/in their budget) on payroll; spend the $$$ necessary to have one of the top 2 or 3 front offices, minor league systems & scouting departments (& foreign academies); retain selected veterans/stars (Reynolds, Biggio, Bagwell, Wagner); sign promising young players to early extensions to save long-term $$$ (Hidalgo, Berkman); & develop young pitching (free agent pitchers are always overpaid & present the biggest probability of sunk cost & zero return-on investment due to their higher rate of injury than position players).

People always complain about the players the 'Stros lose, but I don't see the problem. Kile was made a fair offer & signed for $2 M more w/ Colorado. Everett was traded partly for financial reasons, but people forget that we had a glut of OF'ers & needed to get rid of someone (oh yeah, we got a starting SS & a solid LHP prospect for him too). The Unit wasn't going to stay in Houston, no matter how much $$$ we offered. Hampton stated flatly that he would test the FA market & so we got the best deal we could (also enabling us to get rid of D. Bell) before losing him for nothing (& look at the ridiculous contract Colorado gave him, would you be happier if he'd signed the same contract w/ Houston?). Mo Alou was a fantastic hitter, but definitely an injury risk & again, we have a fantastic young player to plug into his spot.

[bobrek]

CAKoudelka

With respect to the drafting of players, for the most part, baseball is at a disadvantage because a player doesn't get drafted and immediately stir things up, so you can't say the Rockets are getting the attention of the fans moreso than the Astros because they drafted Francis and Griffen, and incidentally, the drafting of Berkman did stir up some excitement at the time. In recent years, the Astros drafted (or signed as an undrafted free agent) Oswalt, Miller, Wagner, Hidalgo, Berkman (among others). They have resigned their big name free agents - Bagwell, Biggio and Reynolds. They have made mid season acquistions to generate excitement (Johnson and Astacio).

I forgot about the Taylor FA signing. Hopefully, that won't be a bust. Perhaps Les should have ponied up for Hakeem?

It doesn't seem the Rockets had the green light to pursue Webber since they seemingly didn't make an offer. Also, I'll reiterate, why aren't the Rockets subject to the luxury tax if Les is such a big spender like Portland and New York (to name a couple)? Again, I am not complainging about Alexander, I just don't see where he has done that much more than McLane.

For the most part, I think Hunsicker enjoys about as much freedom as Dawson. He was allowed to make the Johnson deal. He was allowed to make the Astacio deal knowing at a minimum they'd have to buy out his contract for one million dollars. Perhaps if he wasn't hurt, they would have pursued resigning him. When I see a player such as Webber signed as an unrestricted free agent, I'll give Alexander more credit.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by CAKoudelka
bobrek:

I think the acquisitions of these players, regardless of it being through FA or Drafting certainly raised the level of talent on the team and, at the very least, got the attention of the fans, and showed that Les was able to at least make an attempt in trying to stir up some excitment, in my opinion of course:

Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Scottie Pippen, Steve Francis, Maurice Taylor and to an extent Eddie Griffin

I am not saying Les is God, but what I am saying is, I wish Les owned the Astros, I personally think it might be a better organization. In you opinion you think Les doesnt allow Rudy and Carroll free range in getting the players they feel will help the team? I think he does, but I dont think Drayton allows Gerry to go out and get who he wants.



you're applying the financial realities and workings of the NBA to Drayton running a major league baseball organization. they're not the same. the nba has more significant revenue sharing...the nba has a salary cap...these realities make a comparison between what Les does and what Drayton does nearly useless.

[CAKoudelka]

To MadMAx:

Thats my entire argument, NBA has a salary cap and baseball doesnt, in that Drayton has no restrictions about going out and signing someone, but he wont do that, he imposses his own cap, and thats what I dont understand, when other owners such as Colangelo (sp) and Steinbrenher (sp) go out and get who they want, obviously I dont think Drayton has that kinda money to throw around, but keeping Hampton and Kile didnt seem that far out of reach for him, but he balked, I dont like it, and never will, business or not

And to the winning at any cost, yeah, it isnt full proof, but Yankees and Diamond backs dont seem to be folding, and they spend way more that Marlins did, I believe

Bobrek:

I agree with you on most counts, we didnt run after Webber, and I wasnt thrilled about it wither, but they did bring in another kid in Griffin that raises my eyes, to me, it just seems the Rockets will take a chance on a guy, like Clyde late in his career or Barkley, the Astros wouldnt break the bank for Johnson and Clemens, and that kinda irks me. I dont know if its more of the deal isnt right, or the money is too much, which to me, in both of those situations, the money shouldnt have been an issue, with two top notch pitchers, Cy Young caliber pitchers that we turn away.

It just seems, that in years past, we have lost some players, and it always seems to be a money issue, in a capless league, it will always bother me

[bobrek]

CAKoudelka

You said it all. The Rockets didn't go after Webber and they brought in Griffin. The Astros weren't able to keep Johnson or Kile and they brought up Miller, Oswalt and Hernandez. When the Astros haven't been able to keep players or have traded them prior to losing them, they had others waiting in the wings.

Incidentally, look at all the money the Rangers and Rockies (a couple of mid-market teams) have spent on free agency. Where has it gotten them? In the Rangers case, we need to see where they land this year after they spent a lot of money upgrading their pitching staff.

[SamCassell]

The Astros have an excellent nucleus right now, and a great farm system. So why do people kvetch? It's a lack of any movement in free agency, and a worry about the future down the line.

Since signing Drabek and Swindell a decade ago, the Stros have gone out and gotten zero free agents of any price. None. In fact, they haven't signed a single free agent of their own, either. Either they take care of someone ahead of time via an extension, or they lose him.

Nor have the Stros gone out and traded for a high-dollar, multi-year player and taken on salary in the process. Or even traded for a one-year guy and kept him longer (like the Cubs with McGriff). Their mid-season trades are always for rentals.

It hasn't resulted in a bad club, because the farm system has really picked up recently. And that's spectacular: you're going to win more often and more consistantly by developing young studs than you will by buying a bunch of vets. But it makes for tedious offseasons, since you know that we're automatically out of the running for any stars out there.

And, what's more significant, it presents some ominous clouds on the horizon. As the Yankees have shown (another team with an excellent farm), developed talent is cheap for several seasons, but eventually you've got to offer big contracts to your home-grown stars. A few years down the line, when it comes time to pay Berkman and Oswalt and Miller and Dotel and Ward and Hernandez, we will see if Drayton is willing to open up the pursestrings.

[Raven Lunatic]

The Drabek and Swindell signings are good examples of why the Astros don't sign many free agents anymore. If I recall correctly, those two got long term deals, and really didn't do much afterwards. It prompted the Astros to actually set a club policy of never offering a pitcher more than a 3 year contract. It is a policy. This is part of the reason why Johnson was let to walk so quickly. He wanted at least a 4 year deal, the Astros wouldn't offer more than 3, so there wasn't much negotiation to be made.

Now, I don't know if I disagree with that policy or not. Certainly it will prevent the team from getting hung out to dry with too many albatrosses for years and years to come, but it might also mean that we lose out on good players. Hopefully, since Oswalt, Miller, Hernandez, etc were brought up in this system, they will understand the reasoning behind this policy when their contract comes up, and they will accept a 3 year deal. Or maybe for those guys, exceptions will be made, since they will be young and hopefully injury free. I don't blame them for not giving Randy Johnson a 4 year deal. Who could have possibly known that guy would still be so dominant at this late of an age?

[haven]

Thats my entire argument, NBA has a salary cap and baseball doesnt, in that Drayton has no restrictions about going out and signing someone, but he wont do that, he imposses his own cap, and thats what I dont understand, when other owners such as Colangelo (sp) and Steinbrenher (sp) go out and get who they want, obviously I dont think Drayton has that kinda money to throw around, but keeping Hampton and Kile didnt seem that far out of reach for him, but he balked, I dont like it, and never will, business or not

Hampton currently has a ****ty road ERA. He sucks away from Coors as well as at Coors. Why would you want to pay 100+ million to a pitcher who, at best ,is a bit above average.

Kile is also a bit above average. But the contract he signed with Colorado was absurd.

And to the winning at any cost, yeah, it isnt full proof, but Yankees and Diamond backs dont seem to be folding, and they spend way more that Marlins did, I believe

Ignorance is bliss, eh? The Yankees have the largest revenue streams in existence. The D'backs have no future. They're heavily in deb and have a terrible farm system.

It just seems, that in years past, we have lost some players, and it always seems to be a money issue, in a capless league, it will always bother me

Then petition MLB for greater revenue sharing.

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally posted by SamCassell


Since signing Drabek and Swindell a decade ago, the Stros have gone out and gotten zero free agents of any price. None. In fact, they haven't signed a single free agent of their own, either. Either they take care of someone ahead of time via an extension, or they lose him.

Nor have the Stros gone out and traded for a high-dollar, multi-year player and taken on salary in the process. Or even traded for a one-year guy and kept him longer (like the Cubs with McGriff). Their mid-season trades are always for rentals.

No offense, & I don't intend to be mean-spirited, but this is total bullsh*t.

[SamCassell]

Nice language, dude. You want to make a point and use some examples, or do you prefer innanely spewing profanity around when someone disagrees with you? :rolleyes:

I might have missed a free agent signing, but I couldn't think of one when I posted, and still can't now. Caminiti comes closest, and he was a fairly cheap signing (took below-market value to come home, and the Stros were basically remedying a mistake they made in the first place by trading him away).

[MadMax]

Originally posted by CAKoudelka
To MadMAx:

Thats my entire argument, NBA has a salary cap and baseball doesnt, in that Drayton has no restrictions about going out and signing someone, but he wont do that, he imposses his own cap, and thats what I dont understand, when other owners such as Colangelo (sp) and Steinbrenher (sp) go out and get who they want, obviously I dont think Drayton has that kinda money to throw around, but keeping Hampton and Kile didnt seem that far out of reach for him, but he balked, I dont like it, and never will, business or not




My point was that other teams are restricted from spending so much...with a salary cap, the Yankees and D-Backs wouldn't be able to field teams like they have. the point is there are no rules...no restrictions. in the NBA, players have to play somewhere...but all owners are limited from spending over a certain level. You're asking Drayton to spend as much as Steinbrenner who owns the freaking cable company on which his team plays!! The D-Backs are in heavy debt now...they won't be this good forever, trust me.

As for Hampton and Kile...what people conveniently forget is that these guys didn't want to stay!! Both wanted to play elsewhere. The Hampton trade turned out great in my opinion! We traded Hampton (who now sucks!) and got Roger Cedeno (who played a year with us before he was part of a trade that brought in Ausmus) and Octavio Dotel (who was arguably the best setup man in baseball last year). Plus...that deal allowed us to unload Derek Bell's big salary.
b

[haven]

sammy:

Don't you remember? We got in on the Great Marlins Firesale.

That's how we nabbed Alou! Took on his salary... then we got the prime years of his career... and we're sending him on his way now that he's old and in decline.

Sounds good to me!

[SamCassell]

Oh yeah! I forgot Alou. I was thinking there was a guy I had left out. I was actually a little worried about that trade at the time because we were giving up some good prospects - but they never panned out. I agree with you about getting Alou's best seasons (when he was healthy). I still think he's better than Ward, if healthy, but he's not worth what the Cubs are paying him.

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally posted by SamCassell
Nice language, dude. You want to make a point and use some examples, or do you prefer innanely spewing profanity around when someone disagrees with you? :rolleyes:

I might have missed a free agent signing, but I couldn't think of one when I posted, and still can't now. Caminiti comes closest, and he was a fairly cheap signing (took below-market value to come home, and the Stros were basically remedying a mistake they made in the first place by trading him away).

Sorry 'bout the vulgarity, but it's Friday & I'm tired of being at the office.

Have the 'Stros signed any big $ FA's recently? No, but to say that they've signed no FA's at all is a pretty silly statement. Also, why make the distinction b/t signing a player to an extension before he becomes a FA vs. after? It's better from a fiscal standpoint to do it before they hit the open market.

[Puedlfor]

A few things :

Johnson : Wasn't going to resign - he was going to Arizona, I believe he even told the Mariners so.

Kile : Took less money to go to Colorado.

Hampton : Wouldn't talk contract.

Everett : Insane.

Alou : Old, injury-prone(hasn't played a game for the Cubs yet), wanted way too much money.

Astacio : Poor mechanics hurt his arm.

[Behad]

Originally posted by Puedlfor


Astacio : Poor mechanics hurt his arm.

Astacio hadn't missed a start in 5 1/2 years before he went down. Poor mechanics would have shown up a lot sooner.

[Puedlfor]

Originally posted by Behad


Astacio hadn't missed a start in 5 1/2 years before he went down. Poor mechanics would have shown up a lot sooner.

Not necesarily, if he changed his delivery prior to the year, that could result in the injury.

[Behad]

Originally posted by Puedlfor


Not necesarily, if he changed his delivery prior to the year, that could result in the injury.

True, but he seems like one of those "innings eaters" announcers always talk about. I can't see him changing his delivery from one year to the next.

[Puedlfor]

Originally posted by Behad


True, but he seems like one of those "innings eaters" announcers always talk about. I can't see him changing his delivery from one year to the next.

That is true, but playing in Coors could do funny things to a pitcher - its possible that he tried to compensate for the thin air by trying to force the ball down, thus screwing up his delivery.

I've not seen him enough to know, but there were reports that he was changing his delivery back to what it had been, suggesting that last year he had tampered with it.