Craig Biggio the 5th best 2b of all time?

[haven]

He is! At least according to Bill James, who many consider a premier baseball statistician and historian. If you've never read any of his books, I'd advise trying one. You can often find the older ones on bargain tables. He started the entire "baseball abstract" craze and now writes other books.

If you think it's going to be dry and just about stats, well... it's not. He thinks players should be primarily evaluated statistically... but he finds other parts of the game more interesting. And the man's an excellent writer.

The quote:

"Craig Biggio was a surprise," he said. The current Astros second baseman is ranked as the fifth-best 2B of all time, ahead of Hall of Famers Charlie Gehringer, Frankie Frisch and Nellie Fox. Conversely, George Sisler, who hit .400 twice, is only listed as the 24th-best first baseman. "Perhaps the most overrated player in baseball history," James writes.

And the link:

http://www.cnn.com/2001/SHOWBIZ/books/12/13/bill.james/index.html

[PhiSlammaJamma]

Finally. Some recognition.

[red]

the exert about biggio will only be sold in houston stores...the government wont allow that kind of praise to be known outside of houston...

[Raven Lunatic]

Hmm...I wonder where Alomar ranks....

Good to see Craig getting the recognition he deserves.

[Dirt]

I can't believe Juan Samuel is'nt up there..... ;)

[BobFinn*]

I hope he ranked Ryne Sandberg above Biggio.

As for him saying "Biggio is the best player in baseball today" is he judging players by how dirty their batting helmets are?

Biggio better than ARod? Jeter? Bonds? Bagwell? Maddux? to name but a few.

[haven]

BobFinn:

In this, James is much more concerned with career value.

Ryne Sandberg was terrific for a few years. But he didn't have enough staying power to merit a high ranking. Similarly, Biggio isn't the equal of some of those players, now... but in terms of playing 2b, Biggio's been among the best in the era. He doesn't get enough credit, because he's so damned well-rounded.

Incidentally, you lost all credibility by mentioning Derek Jeter. Derek Jeter's one of the most overrated players in baseball today.

Incidentally, Bagwell is considered to be a lock for the one of the top 5 1b's of all time by the time his career is finished.

[BobFinn*]

Originally posted by haven


Incidentally, you lost all credibility by mentioning Derek Jeter. Derek Jeter's one of the most overrated players in baseball today.



If you saw him play day in and day out, like I do, you would see all the things this man does to win ball games. You say Biggio is well rounded? You obviously have not seen Derek Jeter play if you call him overated.

[Puedlfor]

Originally posted by BobFinn*


If you saw him play day in and day out, like I do, you would see all the things this man does to win ball games. You say Biggio is well rounded? You obviously have not seen Derek Jeter play if you call him overated.

I hate that argument.

why?

Because anyone can say it. I could just as easily say, "I've seen Craig Biggio play day in and day out, and you have no idea what he did for us to win ballgames" Can you disprove that? is there any way to argue with that? No, its just a personal observation used to try and support a previously held position.

BTW - Jeter is terribly overrated. He's only a decent hitter, and his range is well below average for a SS. He's got a Nice arm, and that compensates somewhat for it, but he is really, really overrated.

[BobFinn*]

Originally posted by Puedlfor


I hate that argument.

why?

Because anyone can say it. I could just as easily say, "I've seen Craig Biggio play day in and day out, and you have no idea what he did for us to win ballgames" Can you disprove that? is there any way to argue with that? No, its just a personal observation used to try and support a previously held position.

I have seen Biggio perform in the playoffs. Look at his stats. That is more than a personal observation.

BTW - Jeter is terribly overrated. He's only a decent hitter, and his range is well below average for a SS. He's got a Nice arm, and that compensates somewhat for it

The same things were said about Joe DiMaggio and Larry Bird.

[JBIIRockets]

How about this distinction for Biggio.....

......the worst, least reliable playoff hitter of all time.

[Raven Lunatic]

Larry Bird was a decent hitter with a nice arm.

[haven]

But the thing is, Larry Bird put up great numbers. And few would argue that stats are as important in basketball.

Dimaggio put up excellent numbers as well.

Jeter's are... well... good, but not great. He's one of the better SS's in baseball, but trails behind A-Rod, Garciaparra, Aurilia, and maybe Miguel Tejada. Now, other emerging ones look to challenge him.

Incidentally, one of the huge problems with the Yankees in general is that there team is so freakin' deep. They won because they lacked weaknesses and had a well-rounded pitching staff for more than any other reason. If you have to single-out a single "best Yankee hitter," it would be Bernie Williams, not Derek Jeter.

Biggio was the best or second best 2nd baseman on the planet for a number of years. Most others weren't even close. You certainly don't see that many great 2B's emerging.

[Puedlfor]

Originally posted by BobFinn*

I have seen Biggio perform in the playoffs. Look at his stats. That is more than a personal observation.

uh, have you seen Jeter's stats from the ALCS and World Series? They were horrendous - but its too small a sample size to mean anything worthwhile. You can't make a true judgement on a player in like 30 at-bats. Look at the way you can twist those stats


The same things were said about Joe DiMaggio and Larry Bird.

Except that DiMaggio and Bird each had something they did on a level few others reached(even though Ted Williams was better than Joe). Derek Jeter is a good shortstop, well above average, but nothing more.

[DEANBCURTIS]

Its too bad Bill didn't get to discuss baseball's best reliever of all time, Tim Wakefield. :)