Don't blame Mack Brown

[The Cat]

Just got back from Dallas, so my thoughts on the game:

Don't tell me Mack Brown lost this game, or that he can't win the big games. Chris Simms lost this game, plain and simple. And yes, Mack Brown did decide to start Simms, but, can you really blame him? Simms had two very strong games against A&M and Oregon at the end of last year, both pretty big games for Texas. Outside of the OU game, he was almost brilliant this season. (I think 16 TDs and 2 INT's after the OU loss)

On the game:

Chris Simms totally sucked in this game, in the biggest game in a long time for Texas. Everything that shanna and other critics said about him was true, and all the progress I had seen him make totally went away. Is it the fault of playing a good team? I don't know. Didn't Colorado have about the same defense in October, when Simms passed for about 250 yards and 3 TDs? Didn't A&M and Oregon have pretty good defenses last season? I'm not sure if the problem is with him playing good teams as much as it is just terrible inconsistency.

Last night, he resembled a baseball pitcher who just "didn't have his stuff". After that 2nd pick, I could just tell he was mentally rattled, and after the fumble I was chanting "Major, Major, Major" along with the rest of the crowd. I still have a lot of hope for Chris, and I think he'll be a good QB, but for whatever reason he absolutely had the worst game of his life last night. If Major Applewhite started that game, we would've probably won by over 20 points. This team came out with a ton of adrenaline, as did the crowd after watching the Tennessee loss. We had CU on the ropes, but when Simms threw that first interception, it totally killed any momentum.

To make a long story short, Chris Simms totally sucked, and as for the bowl game I am undecided on what to do. On one hand, Simms is likely the quarterback next year, and he has had for the most part a great year this year. How he would react physhologically to being benched I don't know about. However, I am also worried about how he will respond the next time he has a pressure situation. After the first couple of INTs, you could really tell he was rattled, and thinking about it. After a month of hearing about it from the media and other sources, do you think he can put it behind him? I don't know. What I would do is start him, but have him on a very short leash. He is your quarterback for next season, he's been your quarterback all season, and imho he deserves a chance for Mack Brown to see if Simms is recovered. If not, send Major in there asap.

P.S. There really should be some rule changes in football. The personal foul call at the end of the game, which gave CU the win on the field goal, was simply ridiculous. If someone just takes out the punter, fine. Call it a personal foul. But if a player gets right through the line and misses the block, he can't help but hit the punter. Referees should have some discretion on plays such as that, and a player just missing a block shouldn't cost his team a personal foul. If it should, then I don't even see why a team would even consider going near a punter... too much of a risk.

[Smokey]

The ref really pissed me off. I think a running into the kicker penalty is 5 yards (still not enough to give CU a first down). The ref gave us the maximum roughing the kicker 15 yard personal foul.

Poor Geiggar. I hope he understands that its not his fault.

We need to have our best QB on the field. If we lose to Washington, we won't be in the top ten.

[chievous minniefield]

I agree that this loss is not on Brown but on Simms.

to me, people who need for both Brown and Simms to be "bad guys" are just UT haters who will feel the same way no matter who the qb or the coach is.

The Cat, what section were you in?

[SamCassell]

You're right about going after the block. It is a stupid rule. It also is the rule that teams play under. So it was too much of a risk to try for the punt block, late in the game, down by 6, when our offense had been consistantly moving the ball. Mack knew the rule, and made a bad decision (not as stupid as Barnett's fake punt, but still).

And no way Simms "deserves" to start the bowl game. He hasn't earned it. Is it a coincidence that Simms didn't do much in the OU game, didn't do much versus A&M, and self-destructed in the Big 12 title game? Yes he looked good last season versus A&M and versus Oregon, but he's done zero this season in big games to prove that he deserves the start.

[The Cat]

Originally posted by chievous minniefield
I agree that this loss is not on Brown but on Simms.

to me, people who need for both Brown and Simms to be "bad guys" are just UT haters who will feel the same way no matter who the qb or the coach is.

The Cat, what section were you in?

115... upper level, about the corner. Directly across from the CU section.

[kidrock8]

I've never really understood the logic that Simms played a "great" game against Oregon.

Yes, the WR's didn't help him out much. But Simms made as many mistakes in that game as any other.

Saying Simms played great in that game, is similar to the excuse some people make that Simms is still a "young" QB, who is close to having exhausted 3 of his 4 years of eligibility.

The excuses that have been made for Simms is beyond asinine.

Simms is as big of a bust as any recruit I can think of. David Warren comes to mind.

[chievous minniefield]

that's cool. I was in section 37 [texas' side, 15 yard line down by the colorado end zone].

not counting the Cotton Bowl I went to when I was little, last night was my first UT football game to attend in person. seeing it in Texas Stadium was even better.

for a game that I'd put up in my top 3 or 4 most disappointing sports losses, the carnival atmosphere last night was impossible not to enjoy.

I've never seen a scene like the one before the game where the crowd was in a frenzy before the game even started.

college sports are simply the best.

[The Cat]

Originally posted by SamCassell
You're right about going after the block. It is a stupid rule. It also is the rule that teams play under. So it was too much of a risk to try for the punt block, late in the game, down by 6, when our offense had been consistantly moving the ball. Mack knew the rule, and made a bad decision (not as stupid as Barnett's fake punt, but still).

And no way Simms "deserves" to start the bowl game. He hasn't earned it. Is it a coincidence that Simms didn't do much in the OU game, didn't do much versus A&M, and self-destructed in the Big 12 title game? Yes he looked good last season versus A&M and versus Oregon, but he's done zero this season in big games to prove that he deserves the start.

Well, CU the first time was a big game too, imho, and he looked great there. Also, remember, you're basing your evaluation that Major should start based on his performances from last season and previous seasons. Yes, he played great last night, but that's one game. Simms had a good game too this season. While Simms overall hasn't been a big game performer this year, he did pretty well last year, and I doubt if you can actually regress from one year to the next in ability to perform in big games.

In my heart, I want Major to start. I really do. It felt great seeing him on the field last night, and I actually felt pretty damn confident when he was leading the offense. However, we aren't going to win a national championship this year. Next year we might. Do you really think someone like Chance Mock, with no experience, can lead us to wins at Nebraska, K-State, etc.? I doubt it. Next year, Simms is probably the best QB on our roster. While I'd like to see Major start the bowl game, I'm afraid of the damage it might do to Simms' phyche. If we won the game, criticism and scrutiny of Simms would increase even more. Can he handle that? Previously, I thought he could, but after last night, I don't know. He looked pretty damn rattled after the first couple of picks. I know that sounds like a very poor reason to start a QB, but I'm thinking about winning a national title, and it may give us the best chance for next season.

[Timing]

When did UT have Colorado on the ropes? LOL Talk about being in denial. Whoa! :eek:

[gr8-1]

I really hope Vincent YOung is our qb next year. What a stud he is.

I really feel for Chris. A good guy, but he just doesn't have the feel for playing quarterback. Some guys have it, and some guys don't. I'm rooting for him though.

Check out Grossman and Eli Manning. Both are about the same age as Chris, but they just have a better feel for the game. Manning would have come to UT if Chris didn't commit first.

[gr8-1]

Originally posted by Timing
When did UT have Colorado on the ropes? LOL Talk about being in denial. Whoa! :eek:

First quarter. Up 7-0, driving with ease. Simms hits the CU lb in the chest. That was the game there. UT was moving the ball well the whole game actually. CU won the field position battle thanks to Simms.

[The Cat]

Simms is as big of a bust as any recruit I can think of.

What? Dude, that's one of the most insane statements I've ever heard. Is Simms a star right now? No. Is he a Heisman candidate? No. But he had a very good season this year, and has been good ever since getting the start against A&M last year. There are dozens of "star" recruits every year who end up doing virtually nothing. Simms was an extremely successful QB this season, and led us to a 10-2 record. Was he a great QB? Nope. Could Major Applewhite have done as well or better in some games? Absolutely. Just because the guy is Phil Simms son everyone expects him to be some kind of superstar. He's not right now. But it's the end of his junior season, and he's a good quarterback. How that makes him one of the greatest busts ever baffles me.

By the way, in the Oregon game, Simms made maybe 1 or 2 mistakes. Other than that, he did a great job scanning the field, finding the open receivers, and the UT offense moved the ball consistently the whole game. It is in no way comparable to the CU game, or even the OU game.

Chevious,

Were you downstairs at the TV's when Tennessee got the win over Florida? That was so awesome... everyone was so pumped up, talking about going to Pasadena... then we had to play our game. :(

[The Cat]

Originally posted by Timing
When did UT have Colorado on the ropes? LOL Talk about being in denial. Whoa! :eek:

Did you even watch the game? First possession, Texas moves it right down the field and scores. Second possession, Vasher is one step away from a touchdown on a kick return. Texas immediately moves it to the 35, before stalling out. Third possession, Texas moves it right down the field again, and is on the verge of going up 14-0 before Simms threw that horrid pass. Texas was totally dominating that game until the first Simms pick. I don't even think a CU fan will argue with that point...

[Bigman]

Some of the blame has to be placed on M. Brown for this one. Why didn't he call a max protect punt return? Making sure nobody foolishly or accidently runs into the punter. All the horns needed was the ball back. They didn't need to even attempt a blocked punt. Why take a chance? Chalk that mishap up to Mack
Brown for not COACHING his team to use caution on that play.

[SamCassell]

Well, CU the first time was a big game too, imho, and he looked great there. Also, remember, you're basing your evaluation that Major should start based on his performances from last season and previous seasons.

Agreed that, looking back, CU was a big game. But at the time, it wasn't considered a big deal. Colorado had already lost to Fresno State, was starting a new quarterback, and was ranked in the 20s.

Do you really think someone like Chance Mock, with no experience, can lead us to wins at Nebraska, K-State, etc.?

No, I don't. But I have no confidence if Simms' ability to do that anymore either. That said, Simms will easily be our most talented QB next year and should be the starter, then.

While I'd like to see Major start the bowl game, I'm afraid of the damage it might do to Simms' phyche.

You may be right, he might take it hard. He (and Major) both handled the idiotic QB-shuffle admirably last season, but this is a different situation. But you know what? Frankly if he doesn't have the mental toughness to handle adversity, then he's not the guy we need. I don't want to start the guy just to coddle him. It would send the wrong message to the rest of the team, and the wrong message to the fans.

[Timing]

You're in serious denial. The only way being up 7-0 with the ball is considered having a team on the ropes is if the game is 8 minutes long. Texas gave up more points in the second quarter than they'd given up in the last 3 games combined. In fact Colorado scored more points in the second quarter than Texas gave up in ten different games this year. If CU was on the ropes then it was the rope a dope. It's sad that UT fans would rather play ifs and buts than give credit where it's due.

[Major]

I don't particularly have a problem with Brown in this game in terms of gameday decisions, but others apparently disagree. Check out this article:

http://www.kcstar.com/item/pages/sports.pat,sports/3acd2da9.c01,.html

<I>IRVING, Texas -- You can blame Mack Brown for knocking the Big 12 out of the national title game this time.

Everybody except Brown did his job. Tennessee smacked No. 2 Florida, opening the door for the Longhorns to rise in the Bowl Championship Series standings. And the Colorado Buffaloes made two unforced mistakes in Saturday night's Dr Pepper Big 12 title game, making it a real disgrace that the Longhorns won't face the No. 1-ranked Miami Hurricanes in the Rose Bowl.

Mistake No. 1: The Buffaloes walloped interception-prone Texas quarterback Chris Simms so hard that Brown, Texas' coach, had an excuse to play senior Major Applewhite, Texas' all-time leading passer. Mistake No. 2: Leading by 13 midway through the fourth quarter, Colorado coach Gary Barnett provided the Longhorns with one last piece of good fortune when he foolishly called for a fake punt at midfield.

The fake never had a chance. The Longhorns diagnosed the play the moment the Buffaloes broke the huddle. Texas cornerback Roderick Babers picked off the pass and raced into the end zone, cutting Colorado's lead to six.

Colorado's gaffes weren't enough.

In the end, Brown matched Barnett's mistake with a stupid decision of his own and spoiled a perfect opportunity to win his first conference championship in 18 years as a college head coach.

Colorado 39, Texas 37.

The Colorado team that lost to Texas by 34 points 40 days ago somehow is the best team in the Big 12. Or at least the Buffaloes are the Big 12 champions.

How do you make up 34 points in 40 days? Against Texas all you have to do is add a tad bit of pressure and importance. Mack Brown and Chris Simms might go down in history as the worst big-game performers in college football history.

Simms turned over the ball four times (three interceptions and a fumble) in the first half. An injury to Simms' hand allowed Brown to turn the game over to Applewhite, who took over with the Longhorns trailing 29-10.

Riding Applewhite's rested, hot hand and Babers' huge interception, the Longhorns rallied to within 36-30.

With 4 minutes to play, the Longhorns' defense forced a Colorado punt. There was plenty of time for a storybook Applewhite TD drive. The Longhorns simply needed to set up a punt return.

Given the time and the situation Brown should have instructed his players to stay away from the punter. There was no reason to rush the punter. The Longhorns should have been plotting a decent return.

A backup Texas safety rammed into the side of Colorado's punter, giving the Buffaloes the ball back on a roughing-the-kicker call.

"We thought we could block the punt," Brown said.

Arrogant and stupid. That's the only way I can describe Brown's decision. Arrogance and stupidity are the only things that stopped Brown from acknowledging Saturday night that Applewhite was his best chance to win the national title.

By the fourth quarter of this game that was clear.

<B>By going for the block, Brown was saying there was a better chance of blocking the punt than Applewhite carrying the Longhorns down field for a touchdown. By going for the block, Brown said one last time that he didn't believe Applewhite was good enough to win a national title. </B>

The alleged reason for starting Simms ahead of Applewhite was that Simms had enough upside to win it all while Applewhite didn't. At 6 feet 5, Simms, the son of Super Bowl champ Phil Simms, certainly has a great deal of upside. Unfortunately, in big games all we ever see is the downside. He chokes. He can't handle the pressure.

Applewhite has the intangibles of a winner. He has a Joe Montana quality. Brown, the great recruiter, doesn't have the coaching instincts to realize what it takes to win on the biggest stage.
</I>

The bold part, I think, was a bit harsh, but an interesting perspective nonetheless.

[The Cat]

Originally posted by Timing
You're in serious denial. The only way being up 7-0 with the ball is considered having a team on the ropes is if the game is 8 minutes long. Texas gave up more points in the second quarter than they'd given up in the last 3 games combined. In fact Colorado scored more points in the second quarter than Texas gave up in ten different games this year. If CU was on the ropes then it was the rope a dope. It's sad that UT fans would rather play ifs and buts than give credit where it's due.

Why don't you go to the CU boards, and see what they have to say. Coincidentally, it's very similar to my statements. Are they in serious denial too? CU didn't do anything for those points in the second quarter... Chris Simms simply gave them the points. If we convert on the drive, which we would 90% of the time, we're up 14-0, the crowd is rocking, and all momentum is against Colorado. One more score, and the rout would've been on. That is having someone on the ropes. Had Simms not thrown the first interception, I don't think the meltdown would've happened. It was a snowball effect.

Frankly if he doesn't have the mental toughness to handle adversity, then he's not the guy we need. I don't want to start the guy just to coddle him. It would send the wrong message to the rest of the team, and the wrong message to the fans.

To an extent, I agree with you. If Simms can't handle adversity, he isn't ever going to be a great QB. However, after the way he got rattled last night, I'm starting to question if he can handle it. My fear is that he can't, and although it sends the wrong message, it is unfortunately the best option for next season, imho.

[The Cat]

Biggest mistake of all: grouping Chris Simms mistakes with those of Mack Brown. Mack Brown can't give Chris Simms a brain. He can't tell him to throw it away, or look across the field. I don't know of any coach who can. Yes, I know some will argue that Major should've started, but look at Simms' season this year. It was one of the best seasons in Texas history for a quarterback. Mack's reasons for starting Chris were legitimate.

As for the punt, why not take a chance on it? We just blocked a punt and took it back last week, against A&M. As good as Major is, it's hard for any offense to take it the length of the field in four minutes when the other team knows what you're going to do. We executed the play very well, and just barely missed the ball. Bad luck, and a horrible rule. Even if you think that was a bad mistake by Mack, it's nowhere near as stupid as what Gary Barnett did on the earlier fake punt. And people are talking about him for coach of the year.

[chievous minniefield]

I don't know what they need to do for next year.

there are a lot of unattractive options, though.

first off, if you play major in the bowl, you allow major to have an honorable end to his most honorable tenure at Texas. and Texas probably wins by 50.

however, the mess you're left with in simms is an ugly one. even though the bowl will not be a big game and will not be a true test like the ones simms has so miserably failed, it is his first and last opportunity of this season to try to begin to dig himself out of the hole he's dug.

I have no idea what chance mock or matt nordgren are capable of, but I believe it can't possibly be worse than what simms has shown in games against top 10 opponents.

I think the best, most realistic thing Texas fans can hope for is that vincent young comes to Texas and steals the job from simms. this would, of course, assume that young is the real deal and not simms part II.

yes, I think that is a more realistic possibility than the possibility of simms just magically learning how to read defenses and perform in big games by next year.

it will be a long, long, long offseason for simms, brown and the UT faithful.

I personally believe that brown may be willing to lose his job over chris simms. I don't think there's any way that brown will consider anyone other than simms as his qb for next year. I think brown also probably feels like he's dug too deep a hole with simms to turn back now and try to get out of it with someone else. I don't know if stubbornness plays into it, but I think brown probably just feels like it's too late to make a change now.

I'm hoping that, sheerly on the basis of class, brown will pick applewhite [the senior] for the bowl game.

but after that. . . as I said before, the mess is ugly.

everything about next season depends on 1 player's ability to fix serious problems in his game, and he won't have a legitimate opportunity to work on fixing his problem until we play oklahomo next year.

damn, we're in a tight spot.

[Kim]

Has hell frozen over?!?! Do my eyes decieve me or is The Cat admitting Simms sucked? :) But alas, he throws in "a pitcher having a bad day " and "the refs were ridiculous " and all is back to normal. The Cat, even when you're wrong, you try to twist it some way to make it sound like it was just unfortunate circumstances. :)

Our bet is still on, right? Spurs worse than last year = you give me $20 in Rocks tix.

[chievous minniefield]

TC--

I wasn't down there for long, but it was insane while I was down there. it was literally the kind of celebration you'd usually see after a game going on before the game.

from where our seats were, we could kind of look up at the tvs in the luxury boxes. the people in those were going nuts and yelling out to the rest of us the whole time.

the whole night was just extraordinary.

[The Cat]

Originally posted by Kim
Has hell frozen over?!?! Do my eyes decieve me or is The Cat admitting Simms sucked? :) But alas, he throws in "a pitcher having a bad day " and "the refs were ridiculous " and all is back to normal. The Cat, even when you're wrong, you try to twist it some way to make it sound like it was just unfortunate circumstances. :)

Our bet is still on, right? Spurs worse than last year = you give me $20 in Rocks tix.

Yeah, the bet is still on...

I didn't say the refs were ridiculous. I didn't even say it was a bad call. I just think it's a bad rule, and most people agree. And I still am not convinced that Simms can't lead us to a national championship-- while this is very discouraging, let's not forget that he had a good season. Players throughout sports history have had monumental collapses in major moments, and some have come back. Chris Simms completely sucked last night, but it's not time to give up on his career. Not yet, anyway.

[Timing]

Originally posted by The Cat


Why don't you go to the CU boards, and see what they have to say. Coincidentally, it's very similar to my statements. Are they in serious denial too? CU didn't do anything for those points in the second quarter... Chris Simms simply gave them the points. If we convert on the drive, which we would 90% of the time, we're up 14-0, the crowd is rocking, and all momentum is against Colorado. One more score, and the rout would've been on. That is having someone on the ropes. Had Simms not thrown the first interception, I don't think the meltdown would've happened. It was a snowball effect.


You have just extrapilated a 7-0 lead into a 21-0 lead and a rout. Very nicely done. LMAO Too bad for you that Texas actually had to PLAY the game instead of calling the game after half a quarter. The UT defense got MANHANDLED when it mattered and your golden boy got outed as a fraud. I can play your ifs and buts all day too. If Major doesn't play, Texas loses by 40. If Barnett doesn't call that horrible fake punt play the game isn't even close at the end. As I mentioned before, Texas was the straw house waiting for the big bad wolf and he showed up yesterday.

[The Cat]

Originally posted by Timing



You have just extrapilated a 7-0 lead into a 21-0 lead and a rout. Very nicely done. LMAO Too bad for you that Texas actually had to PLAY the game instead of calling the game after half a quarter. The UT defense got MANHANDLED when it mattered and your golden boy got outed as a fraud. I can play your ifs and buts all day too. If Major doesn't play, Texas loses by 40. If Barnett doesn't call that horrible fake punt play the game isn't even close at the end. As I mentioned before, Texas was the straw house waiting for the big bad wolf and he showed up yesterday.

Umm, all I said is that we were about to go up 14-0. One more score after that, and the rout would've been on. Please tell me what's wrong with that statement.

The UT defense only gave up 337 yards to a team who rushed for about that many against Nebraska. Giving up 337 total yards to a top 10 team is a tremendous job in college football. Colorado's starting field position on some of those TD drives was our 12, our 22, and our 45. I don't know if the Baltimore Ravens could keep Colorado out of the end zone if the offense (Simms) gave them that kind of field position.

Also, a couple more things: Simms is a fraud after one game? And how do you know Texas wouldn't have marched right down the field even had Barnett not called the fake punt? We had momentum. Also, if you could please tell me how Texas as a team resembled a straw house, I'd love to hear it. The team played pretty damn great outside of Simms, as a whole. However, there's not much you can do when your own quarterback gives the opposing team 26 points. It doesn't matter what team you are.

[Smokey]

Fraud = false pose, impostor

Does that not describe Simms?

Since OU: 16 td's, 2 int's
Vs. Top 10: 0 td's, 11 int's

So who is the real Chris Simms?

Man I hope we get Vincent Young.

[Manny Ramirez]

Okay, I know that I have been harsh on Mack Brown in another one of these Texas threads, but I was upset last night and disappointed that Texas couldn't win this game.

After thinking about this, I still feel that Mack Brown is a big reason why Texas has not been able to take that next step. Although the article in which Major (can't get used to saying that or typing it) posted was harsh, I would agree with most of it.

It is true that players have to make plays, but it is also true, IMO, that it's the coach's job to be able to win games like this. It's not fair, sometimes, but the old saying "that when a team wins, it's because of the players, but when a team loses, it's the coach's fault," (or something like that) applies in this case.

4chuckie said it best (his post might be in this thread...I lost track) when he compared Mack Brown to John Cooper. Cooper always had a great record, but he never could win the big game. I think that Mack Brown has proven this. After all, he was in a perfect position to take his team to the national championship game...all they had to do was beat a team that they had already beaten 41-7. Maybe Texas was overconfident...I don't know, but I never would have guessed that they would give up 39 points to Colorado.

This whole thing about "it's not Mack's fault, it's Simms fault" reminds me of the Miami teams of 1985 and 1986. These 2 Miami teams went a combined 21-3 but 0 national championships. You want to know why? Vinny Testaverde...dude absolutely sucked when it came to playing in a big-time game. Yea, he beat Oklahoma twice in the regular season, but both times that he played the bowl game, he was pathetic. A part of me started to wonder if this was Jimmy Johnson's fault or was it all Testaverde or a little of both. However, in '87, Steve Walsh stepped in and led Miami to a 12-0 record and the NC. Walsh wasn't physically gifted like Testaverde (sorta reminds me of Major where Vinny reminds me of Simms), but he made great decisions and was a smart QB .

So, let's see what will happen when Simms leaves Texas. Considering how well Mack Brown recruits, the Horns should still have the talent to contend for the NC. Will Mack prove like Jimmy Johnson that it was indeed the QB or will he prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that he can't win the big game no matter who the QB is.

So, The Cat, Major, chievous, etc. I will hold off on the Mack Brown bashing until I see this scenario play out. Then depending on how it goes, then I will either continue to doubt Mack or I will admit that I was wrong. However, don't be surprised to see me not have any confidence in Texas winning a big game in the meantime - big game being one with National Championship implications and not a bowl game or rivalry game.

[kidrock8]

Cat-I apologize for not gushing over Simms' abilities against the KU's and Baylor's of the Big 12.

The next time Simms plays well in a big game, it will be his first.

He is a bust. The #1 recruit in his class, shouldn't be the guy who is the sole reason for collapses in big games.

Simms came in with hype out the wazzoo. What he does against Baylor sure as hell doesn't impress me. Nor, should it impress you.

I will say that UT had CU on the ropes, before Simms' 1st INT. I recall thinking the game is over right before hte INT. UT was going to score a TD and then Simms was up to his old tricks.

It is obvious that Simms has some mental block when the pressure is on. Both, pocket pressure, and pressure to perform in big games.

The guy absolutely wilts like a flower.

If you want to see a QB with poise, Eli Manning is your guy.

[The Cat]

Originally posted by kidrock8
Cat-I apologize for not gushing over Simms' abilities against the KU's and Baylor's of the Big 12.

The next time Simms plays well in a big game, it will be his first.

He is a bust. The #1 recruit in his class, shouldn't be the guy who is the sole reason for collapses in big games.

Simms came in with hype out the wazzoo. What he does against Baylor sure as hell doesn't impress me. Nor, should it impress you.

I will say that UT had CU on the ropes, before Simms' 1st INT. I recall thinking the game is over right before hte INT. UT was going to score a TD and then Simms was up to his old tricks.

It is obvious that Simms has some mental block when the pressure is on. Both, pocket pressure, and pressure to perform in big games.

The guy absolutely wilts like a flower.

If you want to see a QB with poise, Eli Manning is your guy.

I guess A&M and Oregon last year weren't big games, then? Anyway, what big games has Manning won? I've seen some of the greatest players do poorly in big games... it doesn't mean they can't recover from it.

[kidrock8]

A&M is not a big game, it's only a rivalry game. A&M had no chance in beating UT that year, whether you put Simms at QB, or Elmer Fudd.

As for Oregon, again, I wasn't really that impressed by Simms. It was a good game, I guess, but the fact that the Oregon game is his "best" big game, is really sad.

I think the main problem with him lies, with the fact that I don't think his teammates really thing he should be QB.

I really think the WR's "click" much better with Applewhite, because they feel he is the real QB for them.

Mack seemed to have made the decision himself, rather than asking what the team had wanted.

Obviously, I'm just speculating, but in just about all QB controversies, teams are always divided on who the man should be at QB.

If a whole team doesn't believe in a QB, you might as well jump in a lake.

[The Cat]

Originally posted by Smokey
Fraud = false pose, impostor

Does that not describe Simms?

Since OU: 16 td's, 2 int's
Vs. Top 10: 0 td's, 11 int's

So who is the real Chris Simms?

Man I hope we get Vincent Young.

He also torched Colorado for 3 TDs and 250 yards in October. Yes, they were ranked 14th at the time, but only because they hadn't gotten to play Nebraska yet. Still the same defense as he did yesterday.

And the game against Oregon saw Roy and BJ drop 3 touchdown passes. Is that his fault? The Longhorns also chose to run it around the goalline. Is that his fault? Simms also got picked off on a couple of hail mary's that he had to throw. Is that his fault?

The game against OU had two interceptions as flukes at the end of the game. One when he was hit by Roy Williams when the line didn't protect him, another on a hail mary type throw at the end of the game when Texas was down 14-3 with a minute left.

[The Cat]

A&M had no chance in beating UT that year, whether you put Simms at QB, or Elmer Fudd.

So Elmer Fudd could've made those beautiful throws in strike to Roy and BJ for touchdowns? He could've thrown for about 343 yards on 16 for 24 passing, with no interceptions? Damn, that's pretty impressive. Maybe we should recruit him. ;)

Any game against A&M is a big game, no matter what the record for Texas or A&M is.

[Timing]

Originally posted by The Cat
Umm, all I said is that we were about to go up 14-0. One more score after that, and the rout would've been on. Please tell me what's wrong with that statement.

The UT defense only gave up 337 yards to a team who rushed for about that many against Nebraska. Giving up 337 total yards to a top 10 team is a tremendous job in college football. Colorado's starting field position on some of those TD drives was our 12, our 22, and our 45. I don't know if the Baltimore Ravens could keep Colorado out of the end zone if the offense (Simms) gave them that kind of field position.

Also, a couple more things: Simms is a fraud after one game? And how do you know Texas wouldn't have marched right down the field even had Barnett not called the fake punt? We had momentum. Also, if you could please tell me how Texas as a team resembled a straw house, I'd love to hear it. The team played pretty damn great outside of Simms, as a whole. However, there's not much you can do when your own quarterback gives the opposing team 26 points. It doesn't matter what team you are.


That statement is pure conjecture and speculation, that's what's wrong with it. You can't predict touchdowns before they happen. If you can, a lucrative job awaits you in Vegas.

Prior to this game, these were the national rankings for UT's defense.

3rd vs the run - 77 yards/game
2nd in total defense - 227 yards/game
2nd in scoring defense - 11 pts/game

Here is what Colorado did to them.

223 yards rushing
334 total yards
32 offensive points

On top of that, because Colorado was able to run so well they controlled the ball almost twice as much as UT. UT had the tremendous advantage of studying what Colorado did to Nebraska last week and still couldn't stop Colorado from running the ball right at them. And Colorado didn't run for 223 yards by running in from the 22 yard line over and over again as you seem to want to imply by your field position statement.

Simms isn't a fraud because of one game but rather his failure to rise to play even average in important games. Smokey's stats tell the tale. In the three most important games this season, Simms played poorly and yesterday he committed four turnovers in a single half of the most important game of his life to date. Another amazing thing about Simms is that the other teams would rather play against him than Major. If that doesn't raise all kinds of eyebrows then I don't know what would.

Texas IS the straw house. They racked up big numbers against bad teams. Look at their opponents, specifically the defenses of their opponents. They played some of the biggest trash in the country but when they played solid defenses they didn't do very much. To contrast this, Miami put up 26 points on VTech which was 3rd in the nation in scoring defense and Tennessee put 34 points on Florida which was tied for 3rd in scoring defense. And they did it on the road in the biggest games of the year for them.

This is what Texas did this year against the good teams and the not so good teams.

3 pts Oklahoma (5th in scoring defense)
14 pts A&M (17th in scoring defense)

41 pts Colorado (35th)
44 pts North Carolina (39th)
42 pts Texas Tech (46th)
45 pts Oklahoma St (57th)
35 pts Missouri (73rd)
49 pts Baylor (92nd)
41 pts New Mexico St (96th)
59 pts Kansas (106th)
53 pts Houston (112th)

[kidrock8]

UT reminds me a lot like Jeff Bagwell.

Beat up on the sisters of the blind and then pee in your pants when a real team or pitcher faces you.

They both have the deer in the headlights look when they are challenged.

[gr8-1]

kidrockk, you are right but the team didn't play horribly this game. The offense moved the ball well. Only one player had the deer in the headlights look. I feel for the guy, really.

[The Cat]

After this game, Texas now has the #1 total defense in the country.

As for Colorado's game, did you notice they had much less passing yards than UT usually allows? The difference is Colorado runs about twice as much as a normal team. Yes, they had more total yards than Texas' averaged going in, but that's impossible not to expect. There's not a defense in the country who won't give up more than average yards and points when playing a top 10 team. That's common sense; that's why the other team is in the top 10.

On offense, the A&M game was practically impossible to move the ball in, because the wind was downright awful. You could put a pro offense out there and they would hardly score any points. The Colorado game yesterday we scored 37 in, and that was a big game. The other Colorado game we scored 41. The only legit game on your list was the OU game where we only scored 3 points, and that was a combination of a brilliant defensive performance by OU and a poor offensive job by the Horns. If you think 1 game makes a straw house, then fine, we're a straw house. I believe in using more than one game as a measuring stick, though.

[Smokey]

Here is Simms stat line vs. ranked opponents beginning from when the golden boy ascended to the throne.

vs. Texas A&M in Austin
16 for 24, 383 yards, 3 td's, 0 int's

vs. Oregon
17 for 33, 245 yards, 0 td's, 4 int's

vs. Oklahoma (2001)
24 for 42, 198 yards, 0 td's, 4 int's

vs. Colorado in Austin
17 for 28, 234 yards, 3 td's, 0 int's

vs. Colorado
9 for 17, 130 yards, 0 td's, 3 int's

---
Overall: 2-3; both wins at home against Top 25 opponents.

0-3 at neutral sites; 0 td's, 11 int's

0-2 vs. Top 10 at the time of play

0-1 vs. Top 15; Oregon was ranked # 11 by ESPN before the Holiday Bowl. Oregon finished in the Top 10.
---

Simms is great against unranked opponents, good against Top 15-25, and sucks under pressure vs. Top 1-15.

He isn't the man.

[kidrock8]

gr8-1, unfortunately it only takes 1 guy. You're right though, UT was playing well offensively.

Cat-What? UT's defense didn't really show up for the game. IMO. That was not the #1 defense I saw last night. One of the worst displays of tackling I've seen this year.

Without a doubt, Miami has the best defense in the nation, stats be damned.

[The Cat]

Originally posted by kidrock8
UT reminds me a lot like Jeff Bagwell.

Beat up on the sisters of the blind and then pee in your pants when a real team or pitcher faces you.

They both have the deer in the headlights look when they are challenged.

Bagwell hit .429 in the playoffs this year.

UT played a fine game yesterday; however, it's damn hard to beat anyone when your QB spots the other team 26 points. One player does not equal a team.

[kidrock8]

What Smokey said.

On the road, or at a neutral field, UT always gets whipped.

The last road win worth a damn for UT was the 98 Neb win. Nice, but Neb also lost 4 games that year.

Nonetheless, it was Major's coming out party, and it was the last time UT won when they weren't supposed to.

[kidrock8]

Cat-In an earlier post on this thread, you said something like, "If you think 1 game makes a straw house, then fine, we're a straw house." Doesn't ONE playoff series by Bagwell count as that? Seeing how his career avg in the playoffs is still roughly around .200. Though a case could be made, part of it's biggio's fault.

UT's run D was pretty piss-poor for the "#1" defense in the nation.

UT was the best tackling team I had seen all year, last night was a complete 180.

[The Cat]

Smokey,

Colorado was ranked 14th when we played them. 4 of those 11 interceptions, 2 against Oregon and 2 against OU, were thinks out of his control, and he shouldn't be held responsible for.

Simms had an awful game last night. But, one game isn't enough to tell that he can't be the man. He played decent in the OU game, and actually pretty damn well in the Oregon game. Statistics don't always tell the story in sports.

[gr8-1]

kidrock, I wouldn't say get whipped. The OU game this year, the cu game, the oregon game were all close games that went down to the last second.

[Smokey]

Both Simms and Applewhite played yesterday vs. the same CU defense.

Simms sucked.

Applewhite played very well under the circumstances (no running game, Simms spotted CU 26 pts).

In other words, Applewhite should start the Holiday Bowl and Simms should be forced to compete for the starting job.

Next thing you are gonna say is the WR's ran the wrong patterns or dropped catchable balls for Simms. Whatever. The WR's do that for Applewhite also. Major was playing under worse conditions than Simms yesterday and he did very well.

Any argument that Simms is better than Major was ended last night.

[The Cat]

Originally posted by kidrock8
Cat-In an earlier post on this thread, you said something like, "If you think 1 game makes a straw house, then fine, we're a straw house." Doesn't ONE playoff series by Bagwell count as that? Seeing how his career avg in the playoffs is still roughly around .200. Though a case could be made, part of it's biggio's fault.

UT's run D was pretty piss-poor for the "#1" defense in the nation.

UT was the best tackling team I had seen all year, last night was a complete 180.

You couldn't tell my intent with that statement? I completely disagree with any notion that one game can make a straw house, and I said that to try and show how ridiculous it is. One game does not make a team or player's season.

Also, on the tackling, don't you think you'd get worn down if your offense kept giving the defense the ball? The defense couldn't rest a minute before Simms would give it to CU again.

[The Cat]

Originally posted by Smokey
Both Simms and Applewhite played yesterday vs. the same CU defense.

Simms sucked.

Applewhite played very well under the circumstances (no running game, Simms spotted CU 26 pts).

In other words, Applewhite should start the Holiday Bowl and Simms should be forced to compete for the starting job.

Next thing you are gonna say is the WR's ran the wrong patterns or dropped catchable balls for Simms. Whatever. The WR's do that for Applewhite also. Major was playing under worse conditions than Simms yesterday and he did very well.

Any argument that Simms is better than Major was ended last night.

Simms also played the same CU defense in October, and torched them. Major played a better game than Simms last night. However, to say that one game makes a season and makes one player clearly better than another is just ludicrous.

[kidrock8]

Originally posted by The Cat


Simms also played the same CU defense in October, and torched them. Major played a better game than Simms last night. However, to say that one game makes a season and makes one player clearly better than another is just ludicrous.

Cat-Do you not see a trend that Simms' best games are at home?

I think that's one of the points Smokey was making.

[kidrock8]

Regardless of the T.O.P., which is a viable reason for the D not playing up to par, UT's D just didn't make plays. Some turnovers would be nice, or some 3 and outs. Part of the reason why they were on the field so long was because they let CU convert on 3rd down.

[The Cat]

Originally posted by kidrock8


Cat-Do you not see a trend that Simms' best games are at home?

I think that's one of the points Smokey was making.

Smokey pointed out two games. It takes a hell of a lot more than two games for something to be a trend...

[kidrock8]

Cat-How are those 2 games, any less or any more than your 2 games (A&M and Oregon)?

I find it odd, how 3 years of Simms STILL isn't enough proof that he's nowhere near as good as advertised.

The "inexperience" and "wait and see" excuse has basically been shot down after 3 seasons.

[The Cat]

Originally posted by kidrock8
Cat-How are those 2 games, any less or any more than your 2 games (A&M and Oregon)?

I find it odd, how 3 years of Simms STILL isn't enough proof that he's nowhere near as good as advertised.

The "inexperience" and "wait and see" excuse has basically been shot down after 3 seasons.

Three seasons? He's been a starter for one season and two games. As I see it, he's played in 6 big games. (A&M, Oregon, OU, CU (October), A&M, CU (December). He's 3-3 in those games, and would be 4-2 if Roy or BJ would just catch the ball. The only game where he's really been below average was last night. Against OU he was average. The other games he was very good. One average and below average game isn't enough proof for anything. Of course, a couple of good games isn't either. It's still way too soon to be making any kinds of judgments about next season and his career.

[kidrock8]

Oh gosh...

I guess next year, you will say he's only been a starter for 2 years and 2 games.

:rolleyes:

Too bad he won't be at UT for 8 years instead of 4.

The "inexperience" excuse is really pathetic to pin on a QB who has used up close to 75% of his eligibility.

[francis 4 prez]

Damn, if you say Roy and BJ dropping passes is the only reason people think Simms had a bad game against Oregon I think I might pull all my hair out. Would those points have put us over the top, yes. Should Roy and BJ have caught them, yes (and it wasn't 3 TD's since they only dropped two i remember and even if it was 3, 2 happened on the same possession). Fact is, though, those would have been only points 21 or 23 by the offense, not 37. So take away the D and ST helping Simms out we don't win anyway. And oh yeah, he had 4 interceptions!!!!!!! 4. One of those was a Hail Mary at the end of the 1st half. Wanna know why we had to throw it. Because we had the ball at the 30 with time for a few plays and at least a FG but then Simms sat in the pocket for freaking ever and took a 10 yd sack on back to back plays. 50 yd line, no time left, INT. Simms fault. I'll say I thought he was throwing some good medium range balls during the game but this was not a game for the "big game" resume if you ask me.

And what is with he's only started 1 year and 2 games. He started at the beginning of last season and eventually got benched if I remember correctly. Now you'll say that was b/c he was looking over his shoulder, but so was applewhite and he seemed to handle it. And how many more big games does he get. In a college career you only get so many and he ain't doing the job.

Also, about UT's defense last night. Personally, I didn't think it did as good as it should have been but it wasn't particularly bad. Someone said we gave up 337 yards compared to a 227 avg. Well obviously. That's an average, meaning you get to factor in the weak teams with the good ones. Of course you go above average against a quality team. I did think the tackling was way off but it also seemed to be that we never were getting straight up shots at people (always angle tackling b/c bad positioning or whatever) and it could have been from fatigue at some point. The true disappointment was the constant 3rd and long conversions that killed us. I'm still so pissed about that 3rd and 16 in the 3rd when Jammer had absolutely perfect coverage and the guy just made a friggin unbelievable catch. Also, considering the turnovers and the quality offense, 337 yards and 39 points were not horrible as an end result.

Also, after all that happened, we still were only 2 points from winning. I hardly consider that a team that folds under pressure, just one guy tonight.

[chievous minniefield]

gee, do you think the team will be divided after what happened last night?

I can say one thing about this argument beteen Timing and The Cat. . . one side is using the terms Texas and Chris Simms as interchangeable. the other side is using the terms Texas and Chris Simms as independent of one another. that's where the lack of agreement is coming from.

personally, I think the terms Texas and Chris Simms are independent of one another. sure, he had the word Texas on his jersey, but you will rarely see a game in which 1 player is going so far in the opposite direction from the rest of his teammates.

Timing, you want last night's game to mean that the Texas team you apparently hate and cheer against isn't really very good after all.

sorry. it doesn't mean that.

it does mean that Texas isn't a good enough team to overcome its quarterback and HIS 4 turnovers [certainly you can't pin them on anyone else wearing white last night]. and I suppose it also proved that the Texas defense wasn't good enough to prevent the coloradoes from scoring from 12 and 20.

yes.

again, though, if that makes Texas a straw house, I don't know if there are any teams that aren't straw houses.

in fact, let's compare the longhorns and the buffs.

when the straw-house longhorns and their sham/overhyped defense turn the ball over 4 times to the buffs, the buffs win by 2 points.

when the mighty buffs turn the ball over 4 times to the straw-house longhorns, the longhorns score 6 times as many points as the coloradoes.

so if Texas is the straw-house, what does that make colorado?

well, it does make them big 12 champs, but let's call a spade a spade:

chris simms is the straw-house.

[gr8-1]

Why does Timing hate UT ?

About UT being a straw house, put it this way. Insert Grossman or Dorsey for Simms and what is UT's record?

[kidrock8]

gr8-1-Without a doubt, undefeated.

[Smokey]

I feel so sick. I have ended my boycott of the Longhorns ticket office.

Reliant Stadium Dec. 2002

We will be back. I guarantee. We will be back.

[Timing]

After this game, Texas now has the #1 total defense in the country.

That statement is hysterical after I just pointed out the trash that Texas played against this season. Here are the total offense rankings of Texas' opponents prior to Saturday.

Colorado (15th)
Texas Tech (32nd)
Oklahoma (67th)
North Carolina (69th)
New Mexico St (73rd)
Houston (77th)
Missouri (80th)
Baylor (104th)
Oklahoma State (105th)
Texas A&M (108th)
Kansas (113th)

You have to look no further than this list of inept offenses to see why Texas may have the #1 ranked total defense. There are only 115 teams, so yes with the exception of two games, Texas played offenses that were easily ranked in the bottom half of the country and four of those were ranked over 100.


As for Colorado's game, did you notice they had much less passing yards than UT usually allows?

Teams who are running successfully and have big leads usually don't try to pass too much.

On offense, the A&M game was practically impossible to move the ball in, because the wind was downright awful.

Blame it on the wind? Cedric who?

The only legit game on your list was the OU game where we only scored 3 points, and that was a combination of a brilliant defensive performance by OU and a poor offensive job by the Horns.

You just admitted what I have been saying. Texas hardly played anyone this year and when they did they played poorly.


Chievous calling me a UT hater? Do the stats make me a hater or did you just come up on that on your own? Saying Simms is independent from Texas is horrible. Texas and Simms have been steamrolling teams all year and now we're going to divy up players from the whole and judge them independently of the team? Saying Simms gave up 26 points is a cop out. The "#1 ranked total defense in the country" couldn't stop Colorado and that had nothing to do with Simms. The whole momentum thing is another cop out, the crowd was massively pro UT. If you want to cut Simms performance out of the equation because he played poorly then surely we can cut Major's performance out just as easily because he played well.

[Timing]

Originally posted by chievous minniefield

so if Texas is the straw-house, what does that make colorado?



That makes Colorado the big bad wolf that intercepted mr heisman hopeful 3 times in one quarter and scored 32 offensive points on supposedly the best defense in the country. Not only that, but the big bad Colorado Buffaloes beat #1 Nebraska and #3 Texas in consecutive weeks. It doesn't get much bigger and badder than that. And we all know if Texas had just beaten the #1 and #3 teams in consecutive weeks, The Cat would be proclaiming UT the best team in the history of football. ;)

[RocketMan Tex]

Simms deserves most of the blame since he was the one on the field. However, Mack Brown deserves blame as well. If he would have pulled Simms when he should have, rather than when he did, Texas could have pulled this one out. On top of that, did you hear Brown's post game comments? "Well, we went 10-2, we'll finish in the top 10, so it was a successful season". Uh, earth to Mack Brown: I believe UT fans and alumni are looking for something a little more than a Holiday Bowl berth. I said it before, and I'll say it again: Mack Brown is an excellent recruiter, but he has yet to prove himself to be anything more than a mediocre football coach.

[TheFreak]

Mack Brown deserves all the blame.

The people on this board knew Chris Simms wasn't clutch. Most people who follow UT knew who the better QB was. Unfortunately, Mack Brown thought otherwise. Brown in effect cost his team the season by going with clearly the wrong choice from the start of the year for the single most important position on the team. It's his fault, not Simms'. Had he yanked Simms after, say, the first 3 turnovers, UT wins. His fault again.

Saying "don't blame Brown" is a convenient way to say you weren't wrong, Cat -- pretty cute. But you were wrong, as was Mack Brown.

[kidrock8]

I've come to the conclusion that Cat=Mack Brown.

[The Cat]

Originally posted by TheFreak
Mack Brown deserves all the blame.

The people on this board knew Chris Simms wasn't clutch. Most people who follow UT knew who the better QB was. Unfortunately, Mack Brown thought otherwise. Brown in effect cost his team the season by going with clearly the wrong choice from the start of the year for the single most important position on the team. It's his fault, not Simms'. Had he yanked Simms after, say, the first 3 turnovers, UT wins. His fault again.

Saying "don't blame Brown" is a convenient way to say you weren't wrong, Cat -- pretty cute. But you were wrong, as was Mack Brown.

Why don't you go to a UT site, such as hornfans.com, and take a look back in the archives. I'll guarantee you that at the start of this season, over 90% of Longhorn fans thought Simms should be the starter. And, contrary to your belief, most of them follow UT football very closely. Chris Simms had probably the best individual season at quarterback on Texas history. In big games, he had been inconsistent, but as a whole he had done extremely well. And considering he's about a half a foot taller, stronger, and has a better arm than Major, I seriously doubt one coach in the entire country would've started Major Applewhite given the situation. Chris Simms had a bad game Saturday. Or a bad half, I should say. One poor half of football shouldn't erase a season long good performance, and there's no way in hell one half can tell you that Simms was the wrong choice.

[Smokey]

We are questioning why Mack Brown started Simms in the first place without giving Applewhite a fair shake.

Yeah, Simms had a great year against weak competition and ranked opponents at home - but he should have never been in there in the first place.

[kidrock8]

Cat-You're right 90% of UT fans at Hornfans.com "wanted" Simms to be the starter. What's funny though is that all my UT friends at the time, said that Applewhite should be the man.

Take comments from HF.com with a grain of salt. If anyone supported Major at HF from Aug-Oct, they would have gotten flamed to no end, so all the Major supporters were hesitant to speak out. I believe there were a lot more Major supporters as you think. Proof is in the reaction of the crowd when Major comes in the game.

There really are some two-faced UT fans. They support Simms' starting because A) they have too much trust in Mack Brown, or B)they were afraid to be chastised for wanting Major in there.

Major vs. Simms is a very touchy subject for UT fans, and it's evident that some UT fans don't want to speak out because they think they'd be adding fuel to the fire.

If Mack played Applewhite from Day 1 this year, there wouldn't be much of a controversy, or at least as big of one.

[kidrock8]

90% of people who post at HF.com post good and great stuff about Simms.

In the game Sat, 80% of the fans were booing Simms and wanted him out.

Shows how "honest" some fans can be...

Not until now, are fans finally speaking out against Simms.

[The Cat]

Originally posted by kidrock8
Cat-You're right 90% of UT fans at Hornfans.com "wanted" Simms to be the starter. What's funny though is that all my UT friends at the time, said that Applewhite should be the man.

Take comments from HF.com with a grain of salt. If anyone supported Major at HF from Aug-Oct, they would have gotten flamed to no end, so all the Major supporters were hesitant to speak out. I believe there were a lot more Major supporters as you think. Proof is in the reaction of the crowd when Major comes in the game.

There really are some two-faced UT fans. They support Simms' starting because A) they have too much trust in Mack Brown, or B)they were afraid to be chastised for wanting Major in there.

Major vs. Simms is a very touchy subject for UT fans, and it's evident that some UT fans don't want to speak out because they think they'd be adding fuel to the fire.

If Mack played Applewhite from Day 1 this year, there wouldn't be much of a controversy, or at least as big of one.

Reaction from the crowd? I was screaming for Major as loud as anyone, but it doesn't mean I think he should've started from Day 1. It was just obvious Simms was playing a terrible game Saturday, and Major did a better job. One game doesnt equal 12. Just because Major was better in this situation doesn't mean he should've been the starter every game.

[chievous minniefield]

Chievous calling me a UT hater? Do the stats make me a hater or did you come up on that on your own?

your comments seem to bely a pre-existing agenda: that of proving empirically that Texas is overrated. that's why I call you a hater. if you're here to discuss rationally what happened on saturday night or this season, then great. but I don't think that's what you're doing. it seems to me that you have an agenda. if we agreed that Chris Simms = Texas, then I'd agree with you that "Texas" was overrated. but I don't agree with you that Chris Simms = Texas, and consequently I don't agree with you that "Texas" is overrated.

Saying Simms is independent from Texas is horrible. Texas and Simms have been steamrolling teams all year and now we're going to divy up players from the whole and judge them independently of the team?

sure. why not?

Saying Simms gave up 26 points is a cop out.

no, it's not. it's a fact. did or did not 26 of colorado's points come directly off of simms' turnovers? it probably only seems like a cop-out if it stands in the way of your badly desired conclusion that the entire Texas team was a straw-house sham this year. go talk to ANY knowledgable football anywhere, and see if you don't get laughed out of the room when you suggest that the Texas defense was ANYTHING other than one of the 5 best defenses in college football this year. go ahead.

The "#1 ranked total defense in the country" couldn't stop Colorado and that had nothing to do with Simms.

define "couldn't stop", please. was the UT defense required to shut them out to qualify as a non-overrated defense? please. the UT defense gave up 13 points on saturday night, and the colorado buffs earned every last one of those 13. chris simms took care of the rest. you seem like a pretty intelligent guy. . . how can you possibly even consider that Simms had nothing to do with the job the UT defense was required to perform on saturday? the UT defense forced the buffs to punt plenty of times. they may even have forced them to punt more often than not [I don't have the stats]. they just didn't do it enough to overcome simms' turnover-mania.

If you want to cut Simms performance out of the equation because he played poorly then surely we can cut Major's performance out just as easily because he played well.

please tell me what color the sky is in the world where this logic makes sense. what is at issue here? are we talking about simms, or are we talking about major, or are we talking about whether the entire Texas roster is overrated? why won't you just simply pay attention to all of what happened the other night? I don't even know what to argue here because your comment makes no sense. it's just a rhetorical misdirect.

That makes Colorado the big bad wolf that intercepted mr heisman hopeful 3 times in one quarter and scored 32 offensive points on supposedly the best defense in the country.

that's funny. ooh. . . the big, bad wolf. fact: yes, the colorado defense forced 4 turnovers from simms. they should be given all the credit in the world for that. you think they scored 32 offensive points on Texas. I think they scored 13 offensive points on Texas players not named simms. we disagree. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

if I'm wrong about you having a need to prove that Texas [the entire team] is overrated, then what are you trying to prove?

are you trying to prove that simms shouldn't have been mentioned as a heisman candidate? agreed.

are you trying to prove that colorado isn't getting enough credit for their win saturday? okay, I can agree with that.

are you trying to prove that some people have eternal UT penis envy and can't be satisfied with UT fans pinning the game on one guy instead of heeping ashes on our heads and tearing our sackcloth as we admit that every UT player is overrated? also agreed.

[Smokey]

Originally posted by kidrock8
Cat-You're right 90% of UT fans at Hornfans.com "wanted" Simms to be the starter. What's funny though is that all my UT friends at the time, said that Applewhite should be the man.

Take comments from HF.com with a grain of salt. If anyone supported Major at HF from Aug-Oct, they would have gotten flamed to no end, so all the Major supporters were hesitant to speak out. I believe there were a lot more Major supporters as you think. Proof is in the reaction of the crowd when Major comes in the game.

There really are some two-faced UT fans. They support Simms' starting because A) they have too much trust in Mack Brown, or B)they were afraid to be chastised for wanting Major in there.

Major vs. Simms is a very touchy subject for UT fans, and it's evident that some UT fans don't want to speak out because they think they'd be adding fuel to the fire.

If Mack played Applewhite from Day 1 this year, there wouldn't be much of a controversy, or at least as big of one.

Exactly! :)

After the home game vs. CU, I thought Chris had turned the corner. We were playing so well there was no need to bring in Major. Then reality struck on Saturday, a change had to be made. Too bad Major is only going to be around for one more game.

[kidrock8]

Cat-You might have really wanted Simms to start from Day 1, I don't doubt that. But I guarantee you that the majority wanted Major to start. Yet, the only majority that voiced their opinion without being bashed into pieces were the pro-Simms fans.

What exactly is Mack's reasoning for starting Simms?

Yes, Applewhite's record wasn't great as a QB. But bear in mind that the 98 and 99 UT squads were NOWHERE near as good as the 2001 team. Also, Major played Neb and KSU a few times, whereas Simms hasn't faced either school yet.

Put Simms in at QB in 99 (at his current skill level as a Jr.) and UT probably does not fare as well as it did with Major. Hell, UT might not have beaten Neb that year either.

[Smokey]

I can't wait to see how Chris plays in Lincoln next year. The Huskers are too good to allow the UT defense to carry Simms to victory.

Spring ball should be a lot of fun.

[kidrock8]

Smokey-I, being the biggest Simms basher, too thought Simms might have turned over a new leaf after the CU game. Turns out all he did was just turn the ball over. ;)

Major would have been perfect in the UT offensive system, which require quick reads. UT has been throwing short slants to WRs all year long. You don't need Simms' cannon arm to throw 10 yard slants. However, Major's awareness, is needed.

If UT had a spread offense attack which forced a QB to make long downfield throws, or a lot of sideline passes, then Simms might have been the best guy for the job.

But, UT's offense didn't seem to require the QB needing to have mobility or a cannon, Major's 2 weaknesses.

This was the PERFECT system for Major to thrive in, yet the Major bashers felt like Simms was the better fit.

[Timing]

your comments seem to bely a pre-existing agenda: that of proving empirically that Texas is overrated. that's why I call you a hater. if you're here to discuss rationally what happened on saturday night or this season, then great. but I don't think that's what you're doing. it seems to me that you have an agenda. if we agreed that Chris Simms = Texas, then I'd agree with you that "Texas" was overrated. but I don't agree with you that Chris Simms = Texas, and consequently I don't agree with you that "Texas" is overrated.

If believing that Texas was overrated before this game means I had a pre-existing agenda then I most certainly do. That doesn't make me a hater, but rather someone looking to judge Texas on the merits. I've displayed without a shadow of a doubt that Texas played well against horribly inferior teams all season long but when they played the teams closer to their talent level (but still way less talented) they magically played poorly. If that's the case and you're ranked #3 in the nation then you're way overrated.

no, it's not. it's a fact. did or did not 26 of colorado's points come directly off of simms' turnovers? it probably only seems like a cop-out if it stands in the way of your badly desired conclusion that the entire Texas team was a straw-house sham this year. go talk to ANY knowledgable football anywhere, and see if you don't get laughed out of the room when you suggest that the Texas defense was ANYTHING other than one of the 5 best defenses in college football this year. go ahead.

Points off turnovers require an offense to SCORE those points. The Colorado offense wasn't kicking field goals, they were slamming home touchdown after touchdown. The UT defense could not stop them. Any knowledgeable football fan can look at the facts and those facts show that Texas played played some of the worst offenses in the country to rack up it's defensive ratings. Not only that, because Texas played cream puffs they didn't suffer the injuries that often occur against tough physical offenses.

define "couldn't stop", please. was the UT defense required to shut them out to qualify as a non-overrated defense? please. the UT defense gave up 13 points on saturday night, and the colorado buffs earned every last one of those 13. chris simms took care of the rest. you seem like a pretty intelligent guy. . . how can you possibly even consider that Simms had nothing to do with the job the UT defense was required to perform on saturday? the UT defense forced the buffs to punt plenty of times. they may even have forced them to punt more often than not [I don't have the stats]. they just didn't do it enough to overcome simms' turnover-mania.

The UT defense, by any definition, gave up 32 points. They didn't come anywhere close to shutting them out. You can go on and on about Simms but 32 points is 32 points. Unlike what you would like to imply, Colorado didn't run it in from the 10 yard line after each interception. They moved the ball right at the defense and they did it well. Simms had 4 int's against Oklahoma but the UT defense stopped Oklahoma. Of course Oklahoma's offense isn't on par with Colorado's, these are all things that are not being mentioned while we dwell on Simms' turnovers. While we're talking about Simms' 4 turnovers, why is it no UT fan has pointed out that Colorado had 2 turnovers of it's own? Guess they only count if UT gives them up.

please tell me what color the sky is in the world where this logic makes sense. what is at issue here? are we talking about simms, or are we talking about major, or are we talking about whether the entire Texas roster is overrated? why won't you just simply pay attention to all of what happened the other night? I don't even know what to argue here because your comment makes no sense. it's just a rhetorical misdirect.

Huh? You, after rolling bad teams all year, want to remove Simms from the team and judge him separately from the offense because he played poorly? You want to have your cake and eat it too. Either Simms is a huge part of this offense or he isn't. Simms is overrated and because Simms runs the UT offense which racked up 40 point games week after week, the UT offense is overrated. That makes pretty good sense to me. The quarterback position isn't like a safety or an offensive lineman. The QB position plays a huge role in the success of the offense so I see it as pretty fair and accurate to heavily rate the offense on the play of the quarterback. The position is unique in that way which is why a huge premium is placed on quarterback play.

that's funny. ooh. . . the big, bad wolf. fact: yes, the colorado defense forced 4 turnovers from simms. they should be given all the credit in the world for that. you think they scored 32 offensive points on Texas. I think they scored 13 offensive points on Texas players not named simms. we disagree. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I don't think they scored anything, I know they scored 32 points. The Buffalo offense was on the field, not Chris Simms.

if I'm wrong about you having a need to prove that Texas [the entire team] is overrated, then what are you trying to prove?

I don't really have a need to prove anything. I always suspected that Texas was not as good as people tried to have us believe and they simply confirmed that for me last night. I believed that since the UH game where Texas was actually losing late in the 2nd quarter to a team that eventually finished the season winless. What I've attempted to show here is how UT has racked up numbers against some of the worst teams in the nation and played poorly against teams more on par with themselves. I don't think that is something that anyone can dispute. So yes, Texas was overrated, it's defense was overrated, it's offense was overrated, and Simms was overrated. I kind of wish Simms would have stayed in the game so we could see what he was really made of or maybe we already saw and that's why he didn't go back in.

[chievous minniefield]

If believing that Texas was overrated before this game means I had a pre-existing agenda then I most certainly do.

and you are taking your pre-existing agenda and trying to fit the events of saturday night to your presupposition. don't worry, it's a common thing to do. it just doesn't make you right.

I've displayed without a shadow of a doubt that Texas played well against horribly inferior teams all season long but when they played the teams closer to their talent level (but still way less talented) they magically played poorly.

well, yeah, if you have selective memory. first off, no one's arguing that the entire Texas team played a weak schedule. and by that rationale alone, anyone who plays a weak schedule will I guess be overrated by definition. so on that, I suppose we agree.

but how, specifically, did the Texas defense fail to perform against Oklahoma, Colorado and even North Carolina [who hung 41 on f.s.u.]? you can't have it both ways. if colorado is a good team, as you suggest [and I agree they are], then you can't say the UT defense "magically" failed to show up the first time they played. and neither did they "magically" fail to perform when they played o.u.

Points off turnovers require an offense to SCORE those points. The Colorado offense wasn't kicking field goals, they were slamming home touchdown after touchdown. The UT defense could not stop them.

explain colorado's 5 punts [it would have been 6 if not for barnett's call]. and then, when you're done explaining that and how soft the UT defense is, explain how it is that Texas punted 2 fewer times than colorado. if a defense's job is to stop the other team's drives, then you must be able to admit that the UT defense was the better unit on the field saturday night.

dammit, Timing, you've made me resort to facts.

The UT defense, by any definition, gave up 32 points. They didn't come anywhere close to shutting them out. You can go on and on about Simms but 32 points is 32 points.

no, it's really not. but you want SO BADLY for it to. 32 points is a lot of points to give up if your special teams are pinning the other team back in their own territory, and they just keep marching it down on you. 32 points is really a whole lot more like 18 points when you stop thinking so simplistically.

did the colorado offense move the ball better than any other team this year on Texas? yes. does that make Texas a straw-house defense? no.

You, after rolling bad teams all year, want to remove Simms from the team and judge him separately from the offense because he played poorly? You want to have your cake and eat it too. Either Simms is a huge part of this offense or he isn't. Simms is overrated and because Simms runs the UT offense which racked up 40 point games week after week, the UT offense is overrated.

I can kind of follow you here. yeah, Simms is/was/and shall forever be overrated, and since he is the quarterback of the offense, it follows that the offense could be considered overrated, though I think that unfairly reflects on studs like the legend, mike williams, benson, etc. but I'll give you that. the only problem is that you're talking about the offense, and I'm talking about the defense. the defense is NOT overrated.

by the way, who in their right mind would want to have cake but then not eat it, too?

[Timing]

and you are taking your pre-existing agenda and trying to fit the events of saturday night to your presupposition. don't worry, it's a common thing to do. it just doesn't make you right.

If I believe that a team is overrated after easily beating bad teams and it loses to a clearly inferior team in terms of talent ( though a better team than previous opponents) how could that not make me right?

but how, specifically, did the Texas defense fail to perform against Oklahoma, Colorado and even North Carolina [who hung 41 on f.s.u.]? you can't have it both ways. if colorado is a good team, as you suggest [and I agree they are], then you can't say the UT defense "magically" failed to show up the first time they played. and neither did they "magically" fail to perform when they played o.u.

I never said the UT defense failed to perform against OU in fact I said the opposite, however, OU has the 67th best offense in the country. Holding the 67th rated offense in the country to 7 points doesn't prove anything does it? North Carolina had the 69th rated offense so again, what does that prove? Colorado had the best offense of any team Texas has played and they scored 32 points. I said that Texas failed to perform against the best teams. If you want to break that down to defense and offense, I think that still holds true. It's just that the UT offense faced tougher defenses against (OU 5th/A&M 17th) than the UT defense faced tougher offenses (Colorado 15th).

explain colorado's 5 punts [it would have been 6 if not for barnett's call]. and then, when you're done explaining that and how soft the UT defense is, explain how it is that Texas punted 2 fewer times than colorado. if a defense's job is to stop the other team's drives, then you must be able to admit that the UT defense was the better unit on the field saturday night.

Facts, well hell Texas had 3 punts and 4 turnovers. If a defense's job is to stop the other teams drive's then Colorado stopped UT 7 times (4 to's/3 punts) and UT stopped Colorado 7 times (2 to's/5punts) That looks even to me which is astonishing considering UT is the team with the top ranked all everything offense and defense.

no, it's really not. but you want SO BADLY for it to. 32 points is a lot of points to give up if your special teams are pinning the other team back in their own territory, and they just keep marching it down on you. 32 points is really a whole lot more like 18 points when you stop thinking so simplistically.

Do you get anymore points for driving 99 yards as opposed to 50 yards or 9 yards? No you don't. Points are points, 32 is 32.

did the colorado offense move the ball better than any other team this year on Texas? yes. does that make Texas a straw-house defense? no.

I would say that Texas overall is a straw house and if you were to pinpoint that further it's more on the offense than the defense, however, the defense was overrated and Colorado showed that.

I can kind of follow you here. yeah, Simms is/was/and shall forever be overrated, and since he is the quarterback of the offense, it follows that the offense could be considered overrated, though I think that unfairly reflects on studs like the legend, mike williams, benson, etc. but I'll give you that. the only problem is that you're talking about the offense, and I'm talking about the defense. the defense is NOT overrated.

I don't know how you can say that when Colorado just ran for 223 yards on them. I think both are overrated, just the offense more so than the defense. Good discussion though. :)

[kidrock8]

One obvious thing to me was that the "#1" defense in the nation did not show up in Dallas on Saturday.

A #1 defense does not get bitchslapped at the LOS the way that UT did.

[Desert Scar]

Timing UT's defense also held CU to 7 points, by far their lowest output of the season. Surely that counts just as much, if they hadn't won that game their wouldn't have been a Texas game last weekend. Also, the weak before the Buffs rolled up 62 points and over 500 yards against the Blackshirts, looks like our effort in our worst game against them was around 60% better than NU right?

In sum, UT has a fine defense. I won't say the best, nothing has lead me to believe that label trully doesn't belong in Norman, but probably one of the 8 or so best (I also believe the Huskiers are there too, it was just one of those days for CU offense where eveything worked and NU wasn't sharp). Tenn also gave up 32 last week (same # of offensive points we gave up in the strictest sense--disregarding 15 yard drives), but I don't think their defense is bad either.

[kidrock8]

Scar-Uh, UF's offense puts up a hell of a lot more points than CU's offense.

Nonetheless, I agree UT is somewhere in the top 8 or so in defense.

But like Simms, UT's d doesn't show in the big games, other than the OU game this year (who OSU shut down too).

[Major]

Timing,

Out of curiousity, what teams do you think are better than Texas?

Personally, I think Miami is in a class by itself, and Florida is next. I never thought much of Tennessee, but now I'd have to put them at that level as well.

With Simms starting, I don't believe either Colorado or OU were flukes, so I'd put them above us, maybe along with Nebraska. With Applewhite starting, I would put UT up in the class with Florida/Tennessee, though. I think they could give Miami a good game.

[Timing]

I think as you pointed out it really depends on the quarterback. I think with Major they're top 4 with Miami, Florida, and Tennessee. Cedric Benson and the defense are good enough to be in that top class with just solid unspectacular QB play. Plus Major has won the big game on the road in Nebraska so he's kind of been there done that. I really think with Major starting they would be undefeated right now but still might come up a little short against Miami. Miami looks like they're on a mission.

[chievous minniefield]

I don't believe what I just read.

let me get this straight, Timing. . . for multiple, loooong posts, you and I have been arguing over whether UT is overrated.

my position is that simms is overrated, not UT.

your position has been that you can't separate the two.

now, shanna--er, Major comes along and asks a polite question.

and you say that, with Major, Texas in the top 4 with miami, florida and tennessee??!!??!!

WHAT THE HELL WERE WE ARGUING ABOUT?

Cedric Benson and the defense are good enough to be in that top class with just solid unspectacular QB play.

what happened to the straw-house? the big bad wolf?

[Smokey]

I just heard Bob Stoops is on the ND list of candidates. No word on Mack Brown. That's odd.

Why would ND want Stoops over Brown? Brown is Mr. February.

Both coaches are secure in their positions, so I don't understand. Could it be that Stoops has a conference and national title?

[gr8-1]

Originally posted by Smokey
I just heard Bob Stoops is on the ND list of candidates. No word on Mack Brown. That's odd.

Why would ND want Stoops over Brown? Brown is Mr. February.

Both coaches are secure in their positions, so I don't understand. Could it be that Stoops has a conference and national title?

get a life. stoops won the mnc, but he was 7-5 before that. I dont' know why you hate mack ,but get over it. he's not the problem, simms and major is.

[gr8-1]

Ole Snake oil Mack is at it again. After getting dominated by Cu, Mack lands Aaron Harris , 5 star LB over atm, ou and Bryan Pickryl from Jenks Oklahoma. Pickryl is the top rated player in Oklahoma.

[Timing]

Originally posted by chievous minniefield
I don't believe what I just read.

let me get this straight, Timing. . . for multiple, loooong posts, you and I have been arguing over whether UT is overrated.

my position is that simms is overrated, not UT.

your position has been that you can't separate the two.

now, shanna--er, Major comes along and asks a polite question.

and you say that, with Major, Texas in the top 4 with miami, florida and tennessee??!!??!!

WHAT THE HELL WERE WE ARGUING ABOUT?



what happened to the straw-house? the big bad wolf?


What are you having trouble with? I have said Texas' offense, defense, and quarterback are overrated. I then said Simms, because of the large influence of the quarterback, causes the offense to be overrated. I said the offense is more overrated than the defense which I feel is very good but certainly not worthy of being rated #1 in the country. I said with Major as quarterback they are a better team than with Simms. None of that conflicts with anything I've said.

Even if Major were the starting quarterback that doesn't mean that Texas' opponents would be any better. Texas would still be rolling some pretty horrible teams which allows them to be top 4 with the teams I've mentioned.

The more important question is where would UT rank with either quarterback if they had a top 15 rated schedule instead of a 30th or 40th rated schedule. If you look at the top teams and their rated schedules in the BCS standings...

Colorado (2 losses) - 2nd rated schedule
Tennessee (1 loss) - 4th rated
Miami (0 losses) - 15th rated
Florida (2 losses) - 17th rated
Nebraska (1 loss) - 18th rated
Washington (3 losses) - 20th rated
Stanford (2 losses) - 21st rated
Oregon (1 loss) - 31st rated
Texas (2 losses) - 33rd rated

If you replaced Kansas on the schedule and threw in Nebraska, I don't know where that would put Texas' strength of schedule but I believe they would lose that game and that would put them at 3 losses.

I don't believe UT sucks and I've never said that they do, but I thought they were overrated which is why I called them a straw house and I believed they would lose when they played a team more on level with them. I didn't expect them to lose to Colorado though but I felt Miami, Florida, or Tennessee would put some big numbers on Texas if they ever played. BTW, if you listen to the media they're saying that Colorado "killed" Texas and things like that. From what I've seen, the thought around the country fits the opinion that UT was indeed way overrated.

[Smokey]

Originally posted by gr8-1


get a life. stoops won the mnc, but he was 7-5 before that. I dont' know why you hate mack ,but get over it. he's not the problem, simms and major is.

Touchy subject...eh? Does it anger you Stoops won the mnc in his 2nd year? Or how about Barnett, a guy Texas passed over, in his 3rd year already with a Big 12 title, with a Tennessee loss will be playing in the Rose Bowl for the mnc? Or how about facing Skippy who in his lifetime is 3-0 vs. Texas in the Holiday Bowl?

It angers me. I'll question Mack's decisions. If you don't like it, go to HornFans.

[gr8-1]

Smokey, to me, Mack's only error was playing Simms. Barnett is an ok coach, yes he has the big 12 championship, but wasn't his team under .500 last year. He loses 27 seniors this year, lets see if he's so bold to call a fake punt up 13 next year. That was a stupid play.

Sorry for my crude tone, it was late, I was drunk, lonely, and mad. ;) But, seriously Mack is not the problem.

[Desert Scar]

UT's coaches do not prepare the team for big games. We lose more than our fair share of games against relatively even opponents and some to cleary inferior ones as well (UNC, Stanford), that is my problem with Mack and his coaching staff.

As a team, I don't think UT was overrated. Except for 2 close games against quality opponents, they won their games easily, including beatinf the future Big 12 champion by more than 30. It just so happens the brain locked QB managed to lose the 2 close games they did happen to findthemselves in. Let's no forget Miami almost lost to an unranked team and was a dropped 2 point coversion away from OT versus a punchless VTech team, Florida lost to a third tier ranked Auburn, Tenn lost to Georgia and had some close calls, Nebraska got pummeled bu CU, CU managed to lose twice, OU lost to OSU, and Oregon lucked out to beat UCLA, USC and WSU. No team has a close to flawless resume.

Also, not only did Mack go with Simms to start this year (ok, perhaps understanable) he stuck with him even after he was consistently making mistakes in the pivitol games. I can understand letting him go 0 or 1 to 6 (Tds, int), but allowing that number to reach 7-8-9-10 (TOs), only a fool more concerned with not eating crow than making the best decisions for his team would do that. That latter part really bothers me.