View Full Version : on the triangle offense...
05-03-2000, 12:22 PM
Anybody noticed how Phil's Mystical Triangle is about all the scoring he can get out of his team. I'm talking about the triangle of O'Neil, Bryant and Rice. The rest of the Lakers squad can't seem to get very involved offensively. ...and it seems to be getting worse (heh, heh).
Besides playing an awful lot of minutes in every game, these three guys are completely dominating the Lakers' offense and it's starting to wear them out.
Look at this series:
Game 1 - 87 of 117 points scored by the big 3 for 74% of the offense and a 10 point win
Game 2 - 73 of 113 for 65% in a 24 point blowout (the rest of the team actually showed up for this one)
Game 3 - 69 of 91 for 76% in an 8 point loss
Game 4 - 74 of 88 for **84%** in a game that sacramento dominated throughout and won by 13. In this game, Bryant and O'Neil both played 46 minutes and Rice 40.
Couple of observations on these numbers: 1) team point totals have gone down in each game while scoring for the big 3 has stayed pretty steady (causing they're percentage of the total to rise) and 2) if not for the sheer magnitude of points (87) scored by the big 3 in game 1, they might already be out of the playoffs.
As this series has gone on, these guys are starting to show the fatigue of carrying the team - especially O'Neil. He practically looked like he was going to pass out at the end of last night's game. (on a side note -- the look of a lost little boy Shaq gets on his face when his team is losing just cracks me up!)
Even if they get by Sacramento in game 5, they're going to have to figure out a way to get scoring from somebody else or it's gonna be bye-bye LA-LA. Oh, what a sad day that will be. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/biggrin.gif
05-03-2000, 12:41 PM
I know they'll win Game 5, but I'm just glad that the Kings have exposed a weakness in the Lakers' armor. Maybe the Suns can learn something.
Kind of like what the Kings did last year for the Blazers against the Jazz.
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05-03-2000, 02:47 PM
They probably will win game 5 and I do hope the Suns can put this lesson in how to beat the Lakers to good use (not sure they've got the people to do it, though - i.e. CWebb and Vlade doubling Shaq). I'm just sorry Shaq doesn't have to deal with Robinson and Duncan on defense in the second round! Not to mention Elie hounding Kobe.
05-03-2000, 03:22 PM
ChrisP, IMO that is the failure of the triple post. It is so easy to clog, especially with the new strong-side zone.
You are mistaken though to assume the triple post means Kobe, Shaq and Rice. Three stars really has nothing to do with the offensive system. Triple post means there are three post entry points to base all plays off of. None of these entry points has anything to do with Rice, cause he's not a good passer or dribbler. Rice is mainly the weakside option, from what I've seen.
To help further demystify Tex's outdated offense, there is no such thing as a motion offense that doesn't flex to weak-side with fluidity and utilize all 5 players for picks and passing (this includes the triple post). What gives it a different look and thus the name "triangle" is it tends to have 3 guys on strong-side to form a triangle (although that is not a requirement), to allow all three signature entry points to be threatened on a single play. (Rice is rarely if ever part of the three triangle points; he'd be too easy to guard then.)
Also know that Tex Winter's offense never was successful at the college level cause of the zones. It is my strong opinion that this offense is yet another thing that road Jordan's coattails.
This offense can be clogged with the new zone rules. On a contrary, the motion offense that Rudy and his asst coaches devised directly for Francis is more suited for dealing with strong-side zones. Rudy staff has a more inventive and fresher approach. Just because the media can't recognize it as special, yet, doesn't mean I'm going to listen to hogwash from rudy bashers that it isn't inventive and special.
Jackson is a great coach IMO, but his offense is overrated, and his defense is underrated. Rudy is superior at teaching different offenses, because he recognize what players can and can't do and is willing to listen to them and implement schemes that are fresh. I don't care what anyone says about Rudy and old stereotypes of his limited offense; the motion offense he set up this year is very difficult to achieve in the NBA.
Hopefully, the Lakers will lose to the Kings and people will realize that the Rockets chemistry and execution is very rare and can indeed win with more defense. Our offense is fine to grow off of.
[This message has been edited by heypartner (edited May 03, 2000).]
05-03-2000, 05:42 PM
1. Wasn't it quite a help that Rudy had to drastically switch offenses the same season the new zone rules came into effect? Jackson decided to operate under the same concepts that he did in Chicago in spite of the rules change.
2. Doesn't it also make it easier to clog the triple post up if one of the primary scorers is relatively stationary in the low post area? Chicago was not known for having one of the primary scorers work in the paint area.
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05-03-2000, 08:32 PM
Let me reiterate...I think Jackson is an outstanding coach. I just think the triple post is an antiquated, very questionable NBA offensive system; and a proven failure in college. So, what do you want me to say to your remarks? Do you want me to say why I think Jackson is a good coach? or why I think the triple post is overrated?
For #2, read what you wrote again. You're just agreeing with me...yes, the triple post is easy to clog when a big center is the main feature. Strong-side zone or no strong-side zone.
As for your #1, Rudy and his coaches were quoted in the press the week of the Francis trade that they were so excited to implement a new system around Francis, that they were up all night each night designing new plays. I am not a subscriber of the philosophy that Rudy was FORCED to change. I think that is HOGWASH. But that is another thread. And we've been through that many times. I'll explain this in more detail through flash.
anyhow...Mango...let's not make this a Rudy versus Phil thread. I guess I kinda started that. Let's stick to topic title.
05-03-2000, 10:28 PM
I know we have beaten Rudy vs Phil vs Pat to death.
All I wanted to point out is that timing is everything and the timing was right in regards to Rudy switching to a different offensive system.
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05-04-2000, 12:03 AM
Yes, I agree that the timing of the rules changes made it easier to implement a motion offense that features guards. But I disagree that the strong-side zone made it easier. The hand checking above the extended foul line makes it easier.
Let's keep this simple: The strong-side zone rule does not make ANY offenses easier!!
We can agree on that, right?! That's why what Rudy did to counter the February zones on Francis was even more impressive. Rudy evolved this offense to beat what the defenses were learning to do.
What we did at the end was amazing. That's why I am the champion of not trading anyone unless a big Popeye trade presents itself.
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CATO, CATO, CATO.
05-04-2000, 12:10 AM
The point that I am making is that with Rudy & Co. having to start anew with playsets, they didn't carry any baggage from the past as Phil & Co. have done with the triple post.
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05-04-2000, 12:58 AM
GIVE MORE BLOOD
05-04-2000, 06:09 PM
Guys - my whole point in starting this thread was to get some discussion going on how the Laker team is beginning to rely almost entirely on their three stars. A chance to disect this supposedly unstoppable team and expose the chink in their armor. OK, a little Laker bashing, if you will. That's always good for the soul.
BTW, heypartner, my suggestion that the triangle referred to the three stars was really just an attempt (perhaps not a very good attempt) to jab at the Lakers team - as if that's what they seem to think it's all about. Maybe I should have titled it, "on the 'triangle' offense...". I have a fair idea of what the triple post is about but thanks for enlightening me on some of the finer points just the same. You obviously know a good bit about this offensive scheme.
05-04-2000, 09:57 PM
didn't mean to sidetrack the thread. It's been slim pickings around here lately until Popeye tossed out a bomb. You thread really lit up my enthusiam for disecting offensive systems, particulary why college systems don't work at the NBA level, and how that makes NBA coaches' jobs much harder than college coaches.
Thx. wish your schweetie would let you play for the Lakers game. You'd be a perfect game companion after starting this thread. oh well. Maybe we can do a live game next season.
05-04-2000, 11:18 PM
I think that The Kings have exposed a bit of
the Lakers and I think that the New Format
[3 days off between games] is what will lift
The lakers above them in game 5.
the Kings are playing well and are
a very scary team [a lot like us]
but NBA + Ref + Lakers at home .. .
too much to over come
[See Bucks Vs. Pacers :-)]
05-05-2000, 11:42 AM
heypartner - you're on. The last time I was at a Rockets game, I watched Barkley beat up Rocky (the Nuggets mascot) at every break in the action. That was at McNickols Arena in Denver about 3 years ago. That ongoing bout turned out to be more entertaining than the game since the Nuggies sucked so bad. Anyway, I'd love to go scream obsceneties at the Lakers in person next year - just kidding, I like to yell my head off at games but I don't get ugly. That's for the televised games. Hell, we still might get another chance to yell at the TV this post-season if they win tomorrow.
Rocket River - I think you've identified a new Triangle Offense: NBA + Refs + Lakers. http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/smile.gif I hope the Kings can overcome this unfair advantage in game 5 but it probably will prove to be too much. Still, if the Lakers rely entirely on their stars to get it done again, the refs won't be able to save them. Neither will Phil's Zen mantras.
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dance like no one's watching
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