AMERICA

[DREAMer]

I get confused sometimes... What does it mean to be an "American" (citizen of the United States)?

My wife and I were eating at Marcos tonight. I was enjoying my chicken fajitas, when I overhead an older couple sitting in the booth next to ours. The wife (I assume) mentioned the demonstrations happening here in the U.S. against military action in the Middle East. The guy replied, "They should round them all up and put them in detention camps until this is all over."

Umm, if I'm not very much mistaken, we have the freedom of speech here in this country. I mean, if you want people to get rounded up for dissenting views, then move to China or Cuba or somewhere. This is the U.S., dammit!

The soldiers over there are fighting FOR those people who are protesting their very action. It may seem oxymoronic, but it's true. Of course, they're not fighting solely for the protestors, they're fighting for all of us, but that includes ALL of us.

We are the freest country in the entire world. We have certain rights and liberties. I don't like when people use nationalism or patriotism to subvert those rights.

I think most here in the BBS realize that I'm 100% for military action in the ME. I even think ground troops are a necessary part of any successful action. But, I will (hopefully) never try to say that a person does not have the right to express their opinion simply because it does not comply with my own.

Heck, most times I prefer for someone to speak up when they have an opposing opinion from my own. This way I can debate and either learn from them or they can learn from me. Also, for every 1 person that does speak out, I'd bet hundreds feel the same way but choose to keep it to themselves. They too can learn from debates between people who they agree with and people who they disagree with.

As I type this, I realize that I'm being a little to "idealistic". The truth is, most people don't learn from arguments/debates. The truth is most people just get mad, and cling to their own ideas with no chance of altering their opinion at all.

Oh well, what's an American to do?

[Jeff]

I am always surprised at our willingness to throw out the whole concept of freedom of expression when it is something that really irks us. Good post.

[RichRocket]

The man that said that at Marcos' is probably a man who lost a father, a brother, a friend, or a son in either WWII, Korea, or Viet Nam-- maybe more than one loved one gave up his/her life in the service of our country. Most of us cannot even comprehend that kind of loss.

If I were in his shoes, I think it would injure me mightily to see these kind of whiny protests given the sacrifice that I knew that was offered and the permanent loss that I inherited because of it.

Yeah, his comment was a bit out of line but I cannot help but empathize with the gut-wrenching loss that almost certainly haunts him.

It seems more important to honor the sacrifices made by American military men and women than to honor the right of free speech on some street corner holding a lousy home-made sign.

The die is cast; these kinds of protests are useless gestures that cause a thousand times more hurt and alienation than the miniscule impact they have on political decisions.

[DREAMer]

2 votes for assimilation, good to see the Borg represented on the BBS. :D

RR,

It seems more important to honor the sacrifices made by American military men and women than to honor the right of free speech on some street corner holding a lousy home-made sign.
How do you not see that those who died in combat died FOR those rights that allow us as U.S. citizens to protest just about anything our government does, including military action.

I think the protestors during the Vietnam war were philosophically right, but where they went wrong was to bash the actual soldiers who were over there protecting their rights.

Opposingly, I think today's protestors are philosophically "wrong", but that doesn't mean that I want them to stop expressing their opinions.

The die is cast; these kinds of protests are useless gestures that cause a thousand times more hurt and alienation than the miniscule impact they have on political decisions.

No, what would be useless would be the men and women going over there to fight for a freedom that does not exist. That would be useless.

[coma]

No amount of protesting will stop the US gov't and their strikes against our vile enemies. The enemy has killed thousands of OUR countrymen and women.

HELLO!?!?!?!?!?!?

THEY'VE MURDERED THOUSANDS OF YOUR FELLOW AMERICANS!!!!

So what GOOD is it to protest right now. WHAT WILL IT ACCOMPLISH!?!?!? Will Bush stop the war on terrorism because these bleeding hearts refuse to stand behind their country when she needs them the most? No. The decision has been made. We are at WAR. WAR. WAR. Are people that numb to reality to realize that WAR means everyone in the country has to sacrifice for the good of their NATION. Our way of life, our liberties, our FREEDOM is at stake here. Do you want to lose that? This is not a war over turf, or political gains. This is protecting our life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

Shut your yaps and support your nation.

U N I T E D States of AMERICA!!!

I'm all for freedom of speech. But this is a state of war. Spend your energy passing out flyers on how to look for anthrax and what to do if you think you have it. Educate people in your community on vaccinations. Be positive.

Help those that are HELPING YOU!!

[Jeff]

I think the KKK marching is one of the most dispicable and ridiculous spectacles in America but they have a right to express themselves. War protests are essential to protecting the rights of those who do not support military action. It is the existence of dissenting viewpoints that allows us to keep balance between the furthest extremes of society.

[coma]

Jeff,

Under normal circumstances, I would agree with you wholeheartedly. However, we are in a state of war. We don't even know who we are fighting. Are we fighting terrorists from
al-Queda? This war is slowly moving to our homeland. Are we fighting the McVeigh fan club out of Montana?

These are different times. Mundane logic is currently not applicable.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by coma
Shut your yaps and support your nation.

U N I T E D States of AMERICA!!!

I'm all for freedom of speech. But this is a state of war. Spend your energy passing out flyers on how to look for anthrax and what to do if you think you have it. Educate people in your community on vaccinations. Be positive.

Help those that are HELPING YOU!!

With all due respect, there are many who believe that there is nothing positive about war and who are morally opposed to it. They have a right to disagree with our government and our policies. John Quincy Adams believed slavery was immoral. There were thousands of people who told him to "shut his yap" and support a national policy he found reprehensible. Difference of opinion is the nature of humanity and the tolerence of it is the basis of democracy.

[RichRocket]

DREAMer: I don't think we disagree-- different emphasis. If you re-read what I wrote, I think what I said was not criticial of the right to protest but I was critical of the <B>choice</B> to protest.

[coma]

Originally posted by Jeff


With all due respect, there are many who believe that there is nothing positive about war and who are morally opposed to it. They have a right to disagree with our government and our policies. John Quincy Adams believed slavery was immoral. There were thousands of people who told him to "shut his yap" and support a national policy he found reprehensible. Difference of opinion is the nature of humanity and the tolerence of it is the basis of democracy.

I agree to the right people have to disagree with our government and their decisions. You also brought up a good point in case about JQA. However, I don't see many, if any, politcians protesting the war efforts. I'm not arguing that citizens of the United States should blindly follow what is set as the national precedent. What I'm saying that our actions in the Afghanistan, are required to protect us and our future generations. Whether you're opposed to war or not, yo have to realize this is necessary to ensure our way of life. This is not about what is right and wrong. That has already been settled for us. It's now a matter os survival.

For the record, I'm opposed to war. But like I said, these are different times, and I see no alternative. I love my country. I love my freedom.

[Major]

<B>So what GOOD is it to protest right now. </B>

What's the BAD in these people protesting? As you said, it's not going to change anyone's mind, so why do you care that these people are marching around with signs? As long as it's not violent, of course (which is illegal anyway).

[coma]

Originally posted by shanna
<B>So what GOOD is it to protest right now. </B>

What's the BAD in these people protesting? As you said, it's not going to change anyone's mind, so why do you care that these people are marching around with signs? As long as it's not violent, of course (which is illegal anyway).

In the context of 9-11-01, and ONLY in the context of 9-11-01:

Do I really have explain why it's BAD to oppose the actions of our leaders. Who by the way, are trying to protect our rights as a free nation?

Simply put, we need to stand together as ONE NATION.

Indivisible.

Rather than spending time and energy on a negative, why not use it on something positive? Do these protestors have a better alternative to military action? If so, let's hear it. Should we try and "talk it out?" Maybe we should But before we attempt to talk to Osama bin Laden, we should build a impenetrable electro-magnetic shield over the USA, just in case out "talks and hugging" don't do squat.

But hey, it's an alternative to war, right?

[rimbaud]

For the record, I'm opposed to war. But like I said, these are different times, and I see no alternative.

If that is true, then you are not really opposed to war. Perhaps you are just not "war first."

In regards to social protest in times of war, peace, and promiscuity: it is irrelevant. It is a right "allowed" in our country. It is always a good thing. If there was more social activity, there would be more sense of involvement and there would be more than 25% of the population voting. The power is truthfully filtered throughout the machine. Hands-off representative democracy can always become more participatory...protests such as those going on now are steps towards that.

Unlike you, coma, these people are against war and do see another way. Whether it is feasable can only be determined through listening to them. Even if they are schizophrenics in the street -- they also are exercising their right to social protest.

The immediate reaction to stop dissent in times of conflict ony works to further kill any sense of civic responsibility this country has -- it only paves the way to opening the door to future governmental transgressions against personal liberty.

In response to the man in the restaurant, it is awfully blind to immediately come to the conclusion that he lost someone. Perhaps he is simply a "love it or leave it" kind of guy. To immediately come to the former would be equalled in naïveté by assuming that the war protestors lost family to an invading army, or their brother was one of the men who took control of the planes, etc. One doesn't know, why pretend or attribute?

[Major]

<B>In the context of 9-11-01, and ONLY in the context of 9-11-01:

Do I really have explain why it's BAD to oppose the actions of our leaders. Who by the way, are trying to protect our rights as a free nation? </B>

Yes, you do. You need to explain to me why free speech is a bad thing. You need to explain to me why its not OK to vocally disagree with someone else. You need to explain to me why people always seem to think "I believe in free speech, except if I think its bad" is a viable or acceptable philosophy.

If you're going to ask someone to give up their freedoms of opinion and speech, you better have a damned good reason to do so. And "to be patrotic" isn't it. The ability and willingness to disagree is what makes our country effective, in good times and bad.

[coma]

rimbaud,

You had some excellent points, and they were eloquently stated.

I've always been opposed to war. However, the incidents on 9/11/01 have changed my mind. I would still like to think I'm opposed to war, but only time and cirumstance will tell.

Speaking in context of the 9/11/01 incidents, we have no choice but to put an end to this looming threat. If we don't, it WILL happen again. I'm not saying that our war on terrorism will protect us from any such incidents, but it's a step in the right direction. We've been forced to take action. If some Nazi gang from the next block came into your house, killed a family member, and set fire to your bedroom, what would you do? Obviously, you'd rather not fight. But how else are you to prevent them from going back into your house and causing more mayhem?

Sure, I see the need for the preservation of personal liberty by acting in the "now." But don't these people understand the situation we are in right now? We've never faced this kind of threat before. Don't they understand that if we stand united, we can defeat these forces with a power never before seen. Protesting is just part of what seperates us from our fellow citizens. There's hatred, jealousy, ignorance, etc..

For once, I'd just like to see America stand together as one. The potential is endless.

[coma]

Originally posted by shanna

Yes, you do. You need to explain to me why free speech is a bad thing. You need to explain to me why its not OK to vocally disagree with someone else. You need to explain to me why people always seem to think "I believe in free speech, except if I think its bad" is a viable or acceptable philosophy.

If you're going to ask someone to give up their freedoms of opinion and speech, you better have a damned good reason to do so. And "to be patrotic" isn't it. The ability and willingness to disagree is what makes our country effective, in good times and bad.

I'm not asking anyone to give up their freedoms of opinion and speech. I would NEVER dare to do anything remotely close to that. I never said nor implied that free speech is a 'bad thing.' Pretty much your entire first paragraph was an incorrect analysis of my point of view.

Why isn't "to be patriotic" good enough? Why isn't giving your nation and government full support when they need it most good enough? Free speech is part of what we are fighting for right now. It's a vicious, never-ending cycle to argue when one should be quiet and when one should exercise his freedom of speech. Why are these people who are exercising their free speech protesting our men and women fighting for that very same right? You want free speech? So do I. Let the military preserve it for you. Give them your support.

I still haven't answered your question. Why is it bad?
Believe it or not, the masses are gullible. Yes, these are the same people who buy the pet rock and Beanie babies. These are the same people who return a 16:9 formatted DVD to the store claiming there's something wrong with it because it has bars. Same people who believe some of the rhetoric in newspaper and on television. This is how some of these politicians get elected. They feed propaganda to the masses, and these people buy into it. It's ridiculous, and unfathomable, but it happens!
So you're out there with your sign, screaming against the attacks on Afghanistan, eventually, you're going to sway people towards your idea. Then, it's a domino effect. Then before you know it, half of our nation will be opposed to the war. A nation divided.

Our nation needs our support. I don't understand how anyone who can think for themselves, and obviously the masses cannot, see how we can go about without military action. That's why it's bad. Because it will take support away from our government when they need it the most.

[Jeff]

<b>What I'm saying that our actions in the Afghanistan, are required to protect us and our future generations. Whether you're opposed to war or not, yo have to realize this is necessary to ensure our way of life. This is not about what is right and wrong. That has already been settled for us. It's now a matter os survival. </b>

That is an opinion, not a fact. It is based on subjective reasoning and not on a concrete knowlege of the future. You cannot make a decision about what will or won't happen because you, like the rest of us, cannot see the future and know the consequences of action or inaction.

I do not agree that this is necessary to ensure our way of life, but, honestly, no one knows. We cannot know what will occour as a result of our actions until we have made them. For all we know, we could be wiped out by an asteroid tomorrow.

I understand how you feel but you don't know enough to make a blanket statement like that. None of us do.

[ROXRAN]

I think there are some people in america who just want to save money.

[coma]

Originally posted by Jeff

That is an opinion, not a fact. It is based on subjective reasoning and not on a concrete knowlege of the future. You cannot make a decision about what will or won't happen because you, like the rest of us, cannot see the future and know the consequences of action or inaction.

I do not agree that this is necessary to ensure our way of life, but, honestly, no one knows. We cannot know what will occour as a result of our actions until we have made them. For all we know, we could be wiped out by an asteroid tomorrow.

I understand how you feel but you don't know enough to make a blanket statement like that. None of us do.

Although clairvoyance escapes me, it doesn't hinder me from making decisions. When making a decision based on what 'might' happen, you weigh all the possible results against all the possible actions. You then decide what results you want, and that will lead you to the actions you must take. I went to college, hoping to get a good job when I graduated. I couldn't tell the future back then either, I might've gotten hit by an asteroid while going to campus. But, to get the best possible chance of getting a good job, I went to college. If everyone knew what happened in the future, there would be no future. The best possible chance of the US preventing al-Queda, terrorists, etc., from commiting horrible acts against our nation IS to use military power. How many more Americans are we willing to sacrifice while we are holding their hands trying to change their minds about Americans? These people know nothing else but hatred for Americans and redemption in their deaths enroute to serving their God. History has shown that these are not people to be reasoned with. It's unfortunate, but, it is what it is.

Osama bin Laden called us out. It is a mission we did not ask for, but we will fulfill. These terrorists want to disrupt our way of living. What other choices do we have?

Enough American red has been shed.

[DREAMer]

For once, I'd just like to see America stand together as one. The potential is endless.

Communist Russia, China, Cuba.... they "stand (or stood) together as one", go live there, and see if you like it more.

For the Record: I, like RichRocket, disagree with the protestor's choice to protest, not their right. I don't think they should be protesting, but hey, that's me, and I ain't them.

[Desert Scar]

The "War" on Terrorism
The "War" on Drugs
The Cold "War"

Those that try to squelch dissent need to go re-read the DofI and Constitution--to learn about the ideals we are founded on. Learning about J Edgar Hoover, and Joe MacCarthy, and the rights of Americans they withheld and the terror they wreaked on their own people in the name of patriotism would be helpful as well. It is far more dangerous to have blind faith in your leaders than the danger from a little civil protest here and there.

Further, if half the nation decides whoaa, what we are doing in Afganistan is a mistake because it is not helping us stop the terrorists and further helping our enemies become stronger by taking innocents (I am not saying I feel this way now, but if we start indiscriminant bombing or nukes I sure might), I sure hope our government and its military extension try something different in response.

We should fully support our troops. But public discourse and diverse opinions about how to best address terrorism is our best protection against making and sustaining long-term mistakes, and it is what America is all about.

[coma]

Originally posted by DREAMer


Communist Russia, China, Cuba.... they "stand (or stood) together as one", go live there, and see if you like it more.


Way2Go! DREAMer!

This was EXACTLY what I was talking about. The paragraphs and posts before I said, "For once, I'd just like to see America stand together as one. The potential is endless," were just a mask for my true Communist beliefs.

Stalin, Mao, Castro and myself were sitting around watching A&E's bio on Hitler when I turned and asked them, how do you get your people to stand together as one? They told me that they don't. The people HAD NO OTHER CHOICE.

[Major]

<B>So you're out there with your sign, screaming against the attacks on Afghanistan, eventually, you're going to sway people towards your idea. Then, it's a domino effect. Then before you know it, half of our nation will be opposed to the war. A nation divided. </B>

Earlier, you said:

<B>So what GOOD is it to protest right now. WHAT WILL IT ACCOMPLISH!?!?!? Will Bush stop the war on terrorism because these bleeding hearts refuse to stand behind their country when she needs them the most? No. The decision has been made. </B>

So now there are two possibilities -- I'm not sure which you believe.

If you believe that it WON'T make a difference, I again ask what's the harm of people protesting?

If you believe that it WILL make a difference, then it seems to me that the people have the right to make that decision. If one side can convince that many people that this war is bad, there is probably some logic to their argument (in this case, I don't think that would happen). And if that's the case, then maybe that viewpoint needs to be heard. I don't think you're giving people enough credit to make their own decisions. It's not like the pro-war people can't go out and try to convince people also.

[coma]

shanna,

It would make a difference to those who are opposed to war, because it will sway ppl towards their belief. Small gain in a much, much bigger picture.

I don't see the other side. Not in this situation. I can't bring myself, as hard as I try, to relate to those who oppose our military action in Afghanistan. How can you bite the hand that feeds you? Our soldiers are protecting their rights. They, and those who came before them, sacrifice their precious lives so that we can sit here in peace on a BBS and air our views.

My point, when stating that "it won't make a difference," was related to our government's decision to attack. Therefore, while they are making a difference by potentially swaying ppl towards their ideas, why not use that energy to help your nation. The nation that gives you the right to free speech. The nation that is in limbo as to who or what is attacking us, and when or where it will strike. Right now, we need our fellow American to be strong, to aid us in the time of trouble, to give us strength, and most importantly, the faith that our rights are being protected.

Fine, protest your little liberal asses off. They have all the right to, that's not what's being argued. But don't they find it a bit ironic that by protesting THIS war, they are in essence, saying, "We don't want you to protect our way of life!"

[Major]

<B>I don't see the other side. Not in this situation. I can't bring myself, as hard as I try, to relate to those who oppose our military action in Afghanistan. </B>

I don't either. But you have to understand that other people think differently and a small minority -- including some here -- do see another side. Just because we can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that it doesn't have merits. The problem is that if the ideas are not voiced, then even if it did have merits, we'd never hear it.

Even if you disagree with the ideas, their expression is important because it helps the decision-making process and can open up some possible new avenues.

<B>Therefore, while they are making a difference by potentially swaying ppl towards their ideas, why not use that energy to help your nation.</B>

Most of the protesters <I>do</I> believe they are helping the nation, by trying to steer the country away from a path they believe is not ideal.

<B>But don't they find it a bit ironic that by protesting THIS war, they are in essence, saying, "We don't want you to protect our way of life!"</B>

No, they really aren't. They are saying "This isn't the right way to protect our way of life."

[Rokkit]

I have a hard time just giving over my "full support" to government, even in such a world-changing time such as this. I've seen too much back-and-forth playground arguing, to much backstabbing, too much rhetoric, too much 'looking out for MY interests' and too much 'slap a label on what we disagree with so we can dismiss it' that exists in our gov't over my brief years to just think that suddenly everything is right with our leadership.

By all means there needs to be a reaction to the events of 9-11. We have no choice but to respond. As of right now, I have no problem with the strikes in Afghanistan in an effort to combat the terrorist forces there. (Though my initial concerns about just how widespread a battle this would be are starting to resurface with the anthrax scares). But I want to be sure we are making the right response - which means if I will stay informed of what we're doing as much as I can, and won't just blindly support anything we do just because it's time 'to be patriotic'.

[Jeff]

Look, coma, I don't support war either. It isn't an easy position to take because it is incredibly unpopular, so it isn't like I don't think about my decisions.

That is my belief. You don't have to agree or like it, but I would hope you could agree that I'm not just some idiot who doesn't think about the consequences of my actions. I would like to think that I have demonstrated that I think about my decisions and take them very seriously.

By the way, it isn't just the liberals who feel this way. Pope John Paul has said he believes that peace is the only answer and encouraged the US not to make war in the Middle East.

I'm not out protesting, I recognize the arguments coming from the other side and I see their validity. I also support your right to say and think what you want. I just don't agree. That is the right of every American.

[coma]

Jeff, shanna, rimbaud, Rokkit, Desert Scar:

I see your point. And I can see that you that you guys see mine.
I realize that I have an issue with seeing the other side in this situation. I always try to, and usually I do sympathize with differing views than mine. This situation has me in a emotional cluster*****.

I still disagree with those who are protesting, but they have every right to. Just like I have a right to protest against them. But, yea, after a putting myself in their shoes, I do see their side. I also see how they feel they are helping the nation. As usual, the best way to combat someone's idea in America that you disagree with, is not to beat them down, but to argue your idea while accepting theirs.

It was VERY cool of all of you to calmly air your views without resorting to name calling and whining. It's sad, but everyone I know, pretty much has my same views. I find people here and there who disagree, but they start whining and using names. So this was a refreshing experience.

Well guys, until our next disagreement. :)

PS. Jeff, I never for one second, grouped you or anyone from this thread with the mindless masses. I think I have something to learn from each and every one of you.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by coma
Well guys, until our next disagreement. :)

I totally disagree! :D

Good post.

[Desert Scar]

Coma, I appreciate the way you approached this dialogue as well. For the record, for now I am in support of our federal and military actions. I am more concerned about us citizens giving up freedom at home and splintering within than threats from the outside however. I am also concerned of our "war" effort becoming more indiscriminant than it currenty is, polarizing more mainstream ME factions against us. So while I do current support the scope of military action, I think skepticism and constant re-evaluation of our federal and foreign policy actions is a healthy thing for our freedom loving democracy.