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View Full Version : [grantland]Robert Horry Says Hakeem Was the Best Center in History


tinman
01-17-2013, 03:22 PM
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cjtaylorpt
01-17-2013, 03:23 PM
Duh!!

Mr2Hos
01-17-2013, 03:25 PM
i think Horry prob meant Hakeem is the best center in his (hrry's) history.
Stats alone say Wilt was superior, Bill Russel was also up there
However neither play against Hakeem and vice versa so we might never know about head to head comparison.

But those are my top 3 centers, Jabbar be damned

BallDontLie
01-17-2013, 03:26 PM
Robert is the man he can do whatever the hell he wants

tinman
01-17-2013, 03:28 PM
i think Horry prob meant Hakeem is the best center in his (hrry's) history.
Stats alone say Wilt was superior, Bill Russel was also up there
However neither play against Hakeem and vice versa so we might never know about head to head comparison.

But those are my top 3 centers, Jabbar be damned

Horry mentioned :

Hakeem

1. best shot blocker
2. could hit free throws
3. COULD GUARD GUARDS

tmoney1101
01-17-2013, 03:30 PM
amen, brother. ask anyone who played against him.

munco
01-17-2013, 03:36 PM
Correct.

Mr2Hos
01-17-2013, 03:36 PM
Horry mentioned :

Hakeem

1. best shot blocker
2. could hit free throws
3. COULD GUARD GUARDS

I understand Tinman.
Wilt was a better shot blocker, it just wasn't a stat in his days. Its been said sometimes he had ver 20 blocks a game. I know a lot of his stats are exagerrated today because there are no video evidence.
Hakeem was also a pf masquerading as C, it is a testament to his versatility that he could go up against bigger guys like Robinson, Shaq, Ewing etc and make them look like fools.
While Wilt admittedly playing against lesser competition (scouting was horrible in those days + the color line) put up ridiculous numbers.

I dont know, would be fun to see them play against each other on a video game, but Wilt was no David Robinson

tmoney1101
01-17-2013, 03:43 PM
I understand Tinman.
Wilt was a better shot blocker, it just wasn't a stat in his days. Its been said sometimes he had ver 20 blocks a game. I know a lot of his stats are exagerrated today because there are no video evidence.
Hakeem was also a pf masquerading as C, it is a testament to his versatility that he could go up against bigger guys like Robinson, Shaq, Ewing etc and make them look like fools.
While Wilt admittedly playing against lesser competition (scouting was horrible in those days + the color line) put up ridiculous numbers.

I dont know, would be fun to see them play against each other on a video game, but Wilt was no David Robinson

hakeem played in the greatest era of nba centers, wilt played against a bunch of 6'7 - 6'9 white dudes.

tinman
01-17-2013, 03:46 PM
I understand Tinman.
Wilt was a better shot blocker, it just wasn't a stat in his days. Its been said sometimes he had ver 20 blocks a game. I know a lot of his stats are exagerrated today because there are no video evidence.
Hakeem was also a pf masquerading as C, it is a testament to his versatility that he could go up against bigger guys like Robinson, Shaq, Ewing etc and make them look like fools.
While Wilt admittedly playing against lesser competition (scouting was horrible in those days + the color line) put up ridiculous numbers.

I dont know, would be fun to see them play against each other on a video game, but Wilt was no David Robinson

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1986/0526_mid.jpg

Mr2Hos
01-17-2013, 03:57 PM
http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1986/0526_mid.jpg

im no fan of jabbar, he is bitter.
its a toss up though, but you can't really fault wilt for playing against lesser competition, it was not his fault

Wizardsonlyfan
01-17-2013, 04:02 PM
yea and the sky is blue and water is wet. what else is new?

JayZ750
01-17-2013, 04:12 PM
im no fan of jabbar, he is bitter.
its a toss up though, but you can't really fault wilt for playing against lesser competition, it was not his fault

How does Jabbar being bitter impact his skill level as an NBA player? Jordan was jackass, too, doesn't make him any worse of a player.

And you absolutely can "fault" Wilt for who he played against. Competition should be noted. I personally believe both Wilt and Russel would have had their stats meaningfully marginalized against better competition. Not that they still wouldn't be at or near all-time greats, but it absolutely has to be taken into consideration.

I rank Jabbar #1. He was statistically dominant. His game spanned multiple eras. he had incredible longevitiy. A 39 year old Kareem was better than 90%+ of the big men in today's NBA. And like Hakeem, he was dominant defensively, too. he's got the awards (rookie of the year, 2 finals mvp's, 6 regular season mvp's), he won 6 championships, etc.

Basically, at everyone's peak, I would argue Kareem would perform on par or better than every other center in consideration. And he did it longer and won the championships.

If you want to rank Hakeem second after that, no argument here.

Mr2Hos
01-17-2013, 04:19 PM
How does Jabbar being bitter impact his skill level as an NBA player? Jordan was jackass, too, doesn't make him any worse of a player.

And you absolutely can "fault" Wilt for who he played against. Competition should be noted. I personally believe both Wilt and Russel would have had their stats meaningfully marginalized against better competition. Not that they still wouldn't be at or near all-time greats, but it absolutely has to be taken into consideration.

I rank Jabbar #1. He was statistically dominant. His game spanned multiple eras. he had incredible longevitiy. A 39 year old Kareem was better than 90%+ of the big men in today's NBA. And like Hakeem, he was dominant defensively, too. he's got the awards (rookie of the year, 2 finals mvp's, 6 regular season mvp's), he won 6 championships, etc.

Basically, at everyone's peak, I would argue Kareem would perform on par or better than every other center in consideration. And he did it longer and won the championships.

If you want to rank Hakeem second after that, no argument here.

i said i was not a fan of jabbar because he is a bitter person, i didnt say he wasnt a great player. Every time he is interviewed, he is either talking down Hakeem or Wilt, that shows serius self esteem issues.

Jabbar can not carry the jockstrap of the person carrying olajuwn's jockstrap on defense. On offense, the dream shake offsets the sky hook, plus like Shaq said Olajuwon had multiple counter moves for every move he had.

I would honestly rank wilt below shaq.
He won most of those championships playing with showtime Lakers and a very unselfish Magic, plus his Bucks championship was with the Big O.
Did he ever win in the NBA by himself, while yu can make the arguement that Olajuwon pretty much carried both championship teams on his shoulders- especially the first one

jocar
01-17-2013, 04:20 PM
+ most skilled
+ most agile
+ best footwork
+ best low post moves
+ unbeatable

BEAT LA
01-17-2013, 04:25 PM
And Shaq is far from first.

JayZ750
01-17-2013, 04:32 PM
Jabbar can not carry the jockstrap of the person carrying olajuwn's jockstrap on defense.

I disagree. Did you watch Jabbar play? He was a dominant defensive player. He would be the all-time block leader if they recorded blocks early in his career (though admittedly in more games). But Kareem still could protect the paint, block shots, was a monster on the glass, etc. If you were ranking purely on defense would I put Hakeem ahead? Sure, I think he's the greatest defensive center ever, bar none, which makes him one of if not the greatest defensive player ever. Pound for pound, not doubt. But that doesn't mean Kareem was a slouch or that far behind.

On offense, the dream shake offsets the sky hook, plus like Shaq said Olajuwon had multiple counter moves for every move he had.

Number of moves is somewhat irrelevant, though. Kareem may be the most efficient prolific scorer in history. He's 25th in all-time career true shooting %, but of course the all time points leader, and had a great PPG average. If all Kareem ever did was shoot sky hooks and he had absolutely no other offense, but he did it as effectively as he did, well the ball still goes in the hoop.

Look, I'd rather watch Hakeem play, but I can't rank him ahead of Kareem

As for his bitterness, I'd agree that Kareem is generally a bitter personality. But it doesn't help that on top of it he's kind of a forgotten all-time great. I mean people clearly remember him and rank him highly. But if you were to ask about all-time Laker great, he'd likely rank below Kobe, Magic and West at a minimum. And i believe he was somewhat blackballed from a coaching perspective when he tried to get into coaching. but yes, he shouldn't be as bitter as he seems at times.

sks123
01-17-2013, 04:36 PM
He played with Shaq so that is a bold statement. I loved this video clip I posted it on all my Laker friends' facebook walls.

cyclorider
01-17-2013, 04:37 PM
I miss that era of dominant centers.

Hakeem
Shaq
Robinson
Ewing

Plus the international battles in the 80's with a young Sabonis who was the highest IQ center I've ever seen.

Mr2Hos
01-17-2013, 04:40 PM
I disagree. Did you watch Jabbar play? He was a dominant defensive player. He would be the all-time block leader if they recorded blocks early in his career (though admittedly in more games) If blocks were recorded from the very beginning, Wilt will be the blocks leader, so that angle does not fly



Number of moves is somewhat irrelevant, though. Kareem may be the most efficient prolific scorer in history. He's 25th in all-time career true shooting %, but of course the all time points leader, and had a great PPG average. If all Kareem ever did was shoot sky hooks and he had absolutely no other offense, but he did it as effectively as he did, well the ball still goes in the hoop.. Maybe playing next to two great passing pgs in Big O and Magic Johnson helped. I mean look at Malone, does his scoring numbers indicate he is a better player than Duncan, no, he just had an unselfish pg who always looked for him first on offense.


As for his bitterness, I'd agree that Kareem is generally a bitter personality. But it doesn't help that on top of it he's kind of a forgotten all-time great. I mean people clearly remember him and rank him highly. But if you were to ask about all-time Laker great, he'd likely rank below Kobe, Magic and West at a minimum. And i believe he was somewhat blackballed from a coaching perspective when he tried to get into coaching. but yes, he shouldn't be as bitter as he seems at times.

This i fully agree with. The Lakers screwed up big time by making D'Antoni the coach. They picked a coach for Nash who was going to be there for only 2 years instead of Dwight who is their future. They could have killed 2 birds with one, rewarding one of their own who felt slighted and getting a bigman coach for Dwight.

DarkHorse
01-17-2013, 04:49 PM
I would honestly rank wilt below shaq.
He won most of those championships playing with showtime Lakers and a very unselfish Magic, plus his Bucks championship was with the Big O.
Did he ever win in the NBA by himself, while yu can make the arguement that Olajuwon pretty much carried both championship teams on his shoulders- especially the first one

You said Wilt but you mean Kareem.

That or you are very confused.

PinkTacos
01-17-2013, 04:50 PM
Horry mentioned :

Hakeem

1. best shot blocker
2. could hit free throws
3. COULD GUARD GUARDS

Probably the one fact that is usually forgotten is his steals. He is number 8 all time in steals :eek::eek:...that to me is a ridiculous stat!!! A center number 8 in steals :eek::eek:...clyde is number 7 :p

Mr2Hos
01-17-2013, 04:52 PM
You said Wilt but you mean Kareem.

That or you are very confused.

lol you are right, i meant kareem, butyou got the gist. thanks for point it out

Mr2Hos
01-17-2013, 04:53 PM
lol you are right, i meant kareem, butyou got the gist. thanks for point it out

^^^pointing
i need an edit button

JayZ750
01-17-2013, 04:58 PM
^^^pointing
i need an edit button

You can edit if you contribute to the tip jar.

As for Kareem's championships, its not like the other guys won championships without him.

Mr2Hos
01-17-2013, 05:00 PM
You can edit if you contribute to the tip jar.

As for Kareem's championships, its not like the other guys won championships without him.

the last cuple, magic pretty much carried an old kareem. he still put up great numbers even while old, but they were ll easy buckets set up by magic. They were talking about this yesterday during the haltime of the rockets game-magic, jalen, simmons and wilbon

Midrangej
01-17-2013, 05:07 PM
Horry is great man, his stories are always so interesting....

intergalactic
01-17-2013, 05:10 PM
In terms of absolute skill level, Hakeem was far away and the best. Compared to Russell, Wilt, Shaq, and Kareem, Hakeem was the best dribbler, had the best footwork, had the best post moves, was the most versatile, and was the fastest and most athletic.

It's difficult to compare to Russell and Wilt, considering that they physically dominated their era, and never had any need to learn the kinds of footwork, dribbling, and jumpshooting that Hakeem did.

The only real comparison is Kareem, whose skyhook remains the greatest move in NBA history. You can't deny the skill it takes to make 12 foot hook shots seem like layups. Not as pretty as the dream shake, but completely unguardable by anyone except Hakeem and a few others.

JayZ750
01-17-2013, 05:12 PM
the last cuple, magic pretty much carried an old kareem. he still put up great numbers even while old, but they were ll easy buckets set up by magic. They were talking about this yesterday during the haltime of the rockets game-magic, jalen, simmons and wilbon

yeah, well he was old. Kareem carried Big O in his first one. That's how it works with old and young players, even superstar ones. Still, Kareem was important to winning that championship, at wasn't just old, but ridiculously old!

I'm not a fan of longevity for longevity sake. Favre did not need to keep coming back, especially when you knew it would just end poorly - as it did ever year (with him throwing a critical pick).

While Kareem was clearly a shell of his former self, he was still very very serviceable. He played almost 30 mpg at the age of 40

tinman
01-17-2013, 05:12 PM
Horry is great man, his stories are always so interesting....

if Clyde retires from the mic, I think Horry would be great.

darksoul35
01-17-2013, 06:10 PM
hakeem played in the greatest era of nba centers, wilt played against a bunch of 6'7 - 6'9 white dudes.

Thank you. Im over here heated. No one can touch the DREAM period. Shaq would eat Wilts ass up and the DREAM owned Shaq. He still has nightmares of bangin against the DREAM and the DREAM pullin the chair and stealin the ball.

JayZ750
01-17-2013, 06:22 PM
Thank you. Im over here heated. No one can touch the DREAM period. Shaq would eat Wilts ass up and the DREAM owned Shaq. He still has nightmares of bangin against the DREAM and the DREAM pullin the chair and stealin the ball.

Hakeem did not own Shaq. their head to heads can be found here:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=olajuha01

Shaq had better stats and a better record against Hakeem in the regular season.
Hakeem had a better record in the playoffs, but Shaq had better all around stats.

Of course, stats are stats, and even then its probably better to look at games where both were still relatively in their primes. During which time they seem pretty fairly matched.

Don't get me wrong, I rank Hakeem ahead of Shaq on an overall basis, but let's not act like Hakeem owned Shaq when an unbiased observer might if anything say the opposite was closer to the truth.

All of which also ignores the fact that no one can definitely say Shaq would eat Wilt alive either. I agree that Wilt and Russell both benefit enormously from their era, though.

crash5179
01-17-2013, 06:34 PM
I disagree. Did you watch Jabbar play?




I certainly watched Jabbar play and I saw Moses Malone mop the floor with his ass when the Rockets beat the Lakers in the 1980 play-offs and then again during the finals with the 76ers in 83.

In 1986 I saw Hakeem wipe the floor with his ass in the WCF.

I'm sure there is no disagreement there. Hakeem is the best center in the history of the Rockets and Jabbar was not even as good as Moses Malone who was the only the 2nd best center in the history of the Rockets.

crash5179
01-17-2013, 06:36 PM
Hakeem did not own Shaq. their head to heads can be found here:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=olajuha01

Shaq had better stats and a better record against Hakeem in the regular season.
Hakeem had a better record in the playoffs, but Shaq had better all around stats.

Of course, stats are stats, and even then its probably better to look at games where both were still relatively in their primes. During which time they seem pretty fairly matched.

Don't get me wrong, I rank Hakeem ahead of Shaq on an overall basis, but let's not act like Hakeem owned Shaq when an unbiased observer might if anything say the opposite was closer to the truth.

All of which also ignores the fact that no one can definitely say Shaq would eat Wilt alive either. I agree that Wilt and Russell both benefit enormously from their era, though.

Hakeem was better than Shaq. A lot of their head to heads came when Hakeem was in the twighlight of his career. Hakeem kicked the SH!T out of Shaq the only time it really mattered, during the NBA Finals.

tmoney1101
01-17-2013, 06:39 PM
Hakeem did not own Shaq. their head to heads can be found here:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=olajuha01

Shaq had better stats and a better record against Hakeem in the regular season.
Hakeem had a better record in the playoffs, but Shaq had better all around stats.

Of course, stats are stats, and even then its probably better to look at games where both were still relatively in their primes. During which time they seem pretty fairly matched.

Don't get me wrong, I rank Hakeem ahead of Shaq on an overall basis, but let's not act like Hakeem owned Shaq when an unbiased observer might if anything say the opposite was closer to the truth.

All of which also ignores the fact that no one can definitely say Shaq would eat Wilt alive either. I agree that Wilt and Russell both benefit enormously from their era, though.

shaq has stated on numerous occasions that dream ranks higher than him on the all-time list.

Sweet Lou 4 2
01-17-2013, 06:56 PM
Wilt was the most dominant PLAYER of all time.

Dream was the BEST CENTER of all time.

Wilt was just a freak of nature. No one could stop him. He just score from 3 feet out because no one was there to impede him...until Bill Russell came along.

But today, in the modern NBA. If you were to pick a rookie center to build a team around. You'd have to go with Dream - the only guy I ever saw block Jabbar's sky hook.

Anyone who thinks that's crazy can read my sig.

Midrangej
01-17-2013, 06:58 PM
if Clyde retires from the mic, I think Horry would be great.

that is an excellent suggestion!!!

Make it happen!!! Better still, just get rid of Bullard....

Midrangej
01-17-2013, 07:00 PM
Hakeem did not own Shaq. their head to heads can be found here:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=onealsh01&p2=olajuha01

Shaq had better stats and a better record against Hakeem in the regular season.
Hakeem had a better record in the playoffs, but Shaq had better all around stats.

Of course, stats are stats, and even then its probably better to look at games where both were still relatively in their primes. During which time they seem pretty fairly matched.

Don't get me wrong, I rank Hakeem ahead of Shaq on an overall basis, but let's not act like Hakeem owned Shaq when an unbiased observer might if anything say the opposite was closer to the truth.

All of which also ignores the fact that no one can definitely say Shaq would eat Wilt alive either. I agree that Wilt and Russell both benefit enormously from their era, though.

Stats may not tell the story, but Hakeem owned Shaq mentally. And that's ownage. Man, Shaq pretty much says it now in interviews, and the man is so protective of his legacy he's always bigging himself up on tnt, so for him to acknowledge Hakeem is basically the better centre, it's ownage.

VBG
01-17-2013, 07:39 PM
This is a year old and has been posted and discussed before but still cool I guess.

Karolik
01-17-2013, 07:46 PM
Meh, Horry just being a homer.

VBG
01-17-2013, 07:49 PM
Meh, Horry just being a homer.

it's not like he played with shaq or duncan...

oh wait.

CertifiedTroll
01-17-2013, 07:53 PM
I heard of this guy named Wilt Chamberlain, sounded like he was pretty good

valorita
01-17-2013, 08:02 PM
Hakeem at his peak was probably the best. But longevity and consistency counts and that is why russell, wilt, shaq, and jabbar also make good cases.

Shroopy2
01-17-2013, 09:16 PM
i think Horry prob meant Hakeem is the best center in his (hrry's) history.
Stats alone say Wilt was superior, Bill Russel was also up there
However neither play against Hakeem and vice versa so we might never know about head to head comparison.

But those are my top 3 centers, Jabbar be damned


No, he meant OVER ALL of them


http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=7611863

Horry on Hakeem Olajuwon
"It's amazing how underrated he is. He, to me -- I might be a little biased because I played with him -- is the best center of all-time. Because, one, he wasn't seven feet tall. He's 6-11. All-time shotblocker. Out of every big man that ever played the game, he could shoot free throws. He could shoot from the outside. He could guard guards. He's the best to me. If you go back and you look at the things he used to do on the court -- let's ask David Robinson, he'll tell you -- Dream was the best. No disrespect to all those other guys. I know a lot of times people are measured by wins and championships, like Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain. Dream was just flat out the best to me."

Shroopy2
01-17-2013, 09:17 PM
BTW, Horry's been saying this for A DECADE now. Nothing really new.

But something nice to refresh and go over once in a while.

BFF
01-18-2013, 02:26 AM
I understand Tinman.
Wilt was a better shot blocker, it just wasn't a stat in his days. Its been said sometimes he had ver 20 blocks a game. I know a lot of his stats are exagerrated today because there are no video evidence.
Hakeem was also a pf masquerading as C, it is a testament to his versatility that he could go up against bigger guys like Robinson, Shaq, Ewing etc and make them look like fools.
While Wilt admittedly playing against lesser competition (scouting was horrible in those days + the color line) put up ridiculous numbers.

I dont know, would be fun to see them play against each other on a video game, but Wilt was no David Robinson

Hakeem was no power forward. In fact, most good power forwards bested us. (Kemp, Malone, etc.)

Jontro
01-18-2013, 02:34 AM
I hated Horry outside of the Rockets, but I gotta agree with him here.

Hakeem is the best big of all times. All times!

And top 3 in best player ever.

don grahamleone
01-18-2013, 02:59 AM
YESSSSSS!!!

Mariachi ROCKET
01-18-2013, 03:09 AM
Preeeeeeccchhhhh!!!!

Billionzz
01-18-2013, 04:46 AM
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/n_-9Z2LF4fI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
C
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Thanks for the thread, I agree 100% Dream was the best center of all time.

If you take just seasons and not the whole career I think Dream had some of the best seasons of any NBA player ever. You don't see many players totally dominate both ends of the court.

linvetb6
01-18-2013, 06:23 AM
This was great!

dharocks
01-18-2013, 06:32 AM
It's too bad Hakeem didn't truly peak as an offensive player until his 30s. He really only had one or two seasons in which he was at the top of his game both offensively and defensively. Could be one reason why he's under-appreciated by some, I guess.

IzakDavid13
01-18-2013, 06:37 AM
amen, brother. ask anyone who played against him.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m92vynBtz71renuivo1_400.gif



http://widget.uproxx.com/b/52/http://cdn.tss.uproxx.com/TSS/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/David-Robinson-MVP-Fail.jpg



http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l9vixaErEV1qa6r1fo1_500.jpg

http://andrewgothelf.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/patrick-ewing.jpg?w=500

http://thesportingsnarf.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/03.jpg

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/001/306/132/359255_display_image.jpg?1316057012

http://www.nba.com/media/1996_627_070822.jpg

bloodwings19
01-18-2013, 07:23 AM
I'm surprised he didn't say Dwight Howard is the best center ever because he now works for the Lakers broadcast like Calvin Murphy.

cml750
01-18-2013, 07:36 AM
No doubt in my mind Dream is the GOAT. Wilt was Shaq 30 years earlier when there were no other big men. Russell was good but nowhere near dream. Shaq would never have put up the numbers he did if the refs called all the offensive fouls they should. Robinson was good but not on Dreams level. Ewing was not even close. Jabbar is the closest but Hakeem was better.

I would ranks them
1) Dream
2) Kareem
3) Wilt
4) Robinson
5) Sabonis (in his prime)
6) Shaq
7) Russel
8) Mo Malone
9) Ewing

cml750
01-18-2013, 07:37 AM
I'm surprised he didn't say Dwight Howard is the best center ever because he now works for the Lakers broadcast like Calvin Murphy.

Horry has always said Dream was the GOAT.

DaGreatest
01-18-2013, 07:58 AM
I understand Tinman.
Wilt was a better shot blocker, it just wasn't a stat in his days. Its been said sometimes he had ver 20 blocks a game. I know a lot of his stats are exagerrated today because there are no video evidence.
Hakeem was also a pf masquerading as C, it is a testament to his versatility that he could go up against bigger guys like Robinson, Shaq, Ewing etc and make them look like fools.
While Wilt admittedly playing against lesser competition (scouting was horrible in those days + the color line) put up ridiculous numbers.

I dont know, would be fun to see them play against each other on a video game, but Wilt was no David Robinson

thats laughable on so many levels, look at the comp of both eras. Olajuwon dominateed the golden era of the NBA. Wilt, a bunch of undersized guys with no athleticism.

Ppl also say theres a big footm you wnt to beleive that also?

game.set.match.

SeabrookMiglla
01-18-2013, 08:45 AM
it is difficult to say who was the GOAT, but hakeem was the most diverse center in comparison to others. his footwork man...

Sweet Lou 4 2
01-18-2013, 08:58 AM
Hakeem was no power forward. In fact, most good power forwards bested us. (Kemp, Malone, etc.)

That's right, Hakeem was not a PF in a center's body.

He was a guard in a center's body.

Matt78777
01-18-2013, 09:46 AM
That's right, Hakeem was not a PF in a center's body.

He was a guard in a center's body.

Why do people keep saying he was really a PF? He played center almost his whole career, he wasn't that much smaller than other centers, blocked and rebounded like a center, had a post game like a center...just because he was more fluid he wasn't a center? I don't get it.

DCkid
01-18-2013, 09:47 AM
Basically, at everyone's peak, I would argue Kareem would perform on par or better than every other center in consideration.
You had me until here. If we're taking entire career into consideration I have no problem with putting Kareem ahead of Hakeem. His longevity was pretty incredible.

But at their peak? What could Kareem do in his peak that Hakeem couldn't do circa 1992-1995? Hakeem was a more versatile offensive player and better defender.

MadMax
01-18-2013, 09:55 AM
And like Hakeem, he was dominant defensively, too. .

You lose me here. He was a very good post defender...but he was nowhere near as versatile defensively as Hakeem. Not nearly as quick. He was very good at defending against the guy he was matched up on....Hakeem was very good at limiting the entire opposing team.

At his prime, I've never seen a center as incredibly skilled and versatile as Hakeem Olajuwon. Kareem's strength was ongevity and how he was able to sustain a very high level of play very late into his career. That was awesome...but when you start comparing peak Kareem and peak Hakeem....yeah, i have a very difficult time imagining Kareem ever strapping the 1994 Rockets to his back and delivering a title.

solid
01-18-2013, 09:56 AM
There have been so many great ones, it is almost unfair to pick just one. No doubt Dream is one of the greatest, but Wilt, Russell, Kareem, and others should be included in the conversation. Dream may be the "all around" best because he could so many things well.

Precision340
01-18-2013, 12:03 PM
hearing Robert talk about Dream made me cry like that Ravens fan.

Oturakci
01-18-2013, 12:11 PM
Horry played with the best and against the best (centers)

choujie
01-18-2013, 12:17 PM
T Dream may be the "all around" best because he could so many things well.

Even that is debatable. Wilt led league in assists once.

OlajuwonFan81
01-18-2013, 12:17 PM
My signature says it all my friends........

FearBeard :{#
01-18-2013, 02:17 PM
Its hard to recall any games that Olajuwon was NOT the dominant big man on the court. The Utah Jazz gave them fits with the Stockton pick and roll and outside shooting of Karl Malone. The years of double and triple teams were painful to watch unless our guards were hitting the 3s. Thank god for Kenny Smith, Rodney McCray and Robert Horry. The 1986 playoff games with the Lakers were incredible including the miracle sampson shot. Anyway... DIRECTV stop the rockets BLACKOUTs. :mad:

dachuda86
01-18-2013, 03:51 PM
I want to go back and watch this series... where can I do that?????

saleem
01-18-2013, 09:05 PM
Legend! Hakeem the Dream.

JayZ750
01-18-2013, 10:30 PM
You had me until here. If we're taking entire career into consideration I have no problem with putting Kareem ahead of Hakeem. His longevity was pretty incredible.

But at their peak? What could Kareem do in his peak that Hakeem couldn't do circa 1992-1995? Hakeem was a more versatile offensive player and better defender.

I think Hakeem gets a lot of credit, deservedly, for being a more versatile player. Not just offensively, but defensively. And that's great. But is also a little overrated, IMO. It's great that Hakeem had clearly better footwork and counter moves... Kareem was still better offensively. He scored more, more efficiently, with a more unstoppable single move. He was a more than capable assist man throughout his career. He was a ls good if not a better rebounder.

Defensively Hakeem was clearly better but don't short change Kareem. He may not have been able to defend quicker smaller players like Hakeem but he was certainly capable of locking down the paint in his day.

JayZ750
01-18-2013, 10:43 PM
You lose me here. He was a very good post defender...but he was nowhere near as versatile defensively as Hakeem. Not nearly as quick. He was very good at defending against the guy he was matched up on....Hakeem was very good at limiting the entire opposing team.

At his prime, I've never seen a center as incredibly skilled and versatile as Hakeem Olajuwon. Kareem's strength was ongevity and how he was able to sustain a very high level of play very late into his career. That was awesome...but when you start comparing peak Kareem and peak Hakeem....yeah, i have a very difficult time imagining Kareem ever strapping the 1994 Rockets to his back and delivering a title.

Again it's tough when comparing generally different eras. But Kareem's numbers at his peak definitely eclipse Hakeem's. of course numbers aren't everything. Their careers did of course overlap a bit. And generally Hakeem got the better of Kareem stats wise. But consider Kareem's age at that point. In the 86 playoffs for example, Kareem was already 38 years old. But he still scored 22+ per game, grabbi g nearly 7 boards and 2 blocks. Hakeem of course did better - meaningfully - but consider Hakeem at 38. Of course the longevity is part of Kareem's greatness... But I'd also argue that putting up those stats at 38 against the new age 80's centers speaks well to how well he would have done if be came up in the same era. In other words, while Kareem might not have still out up 35 points, 16 boards, 3.5 blocks and 4.5 assists per game as he did in his best years, I don't suspect it would be that far off.

There's no telling what Kareem would have done at a comparable age on that 94 Rockets. I do know he immediately changed the fate of the Bucks. I do think he gets a rap for being more of a gentle giant which equates to can be lead a team like Hakeem did... Great teammates or not, Kareem is one of the greatest winners in the history of basketball.

I love the rockets and Hakeem, but I can't rate him above Kareem all time. Sorry.

dharocks
01-18-2013, 11:09 PM
Does KAJ's longevity hurt or help his overall legacy when people evaluate him? It seems like when a lot of fans think of Kareem they remember when he was in his late 30s, stopped rebounding, and had deferred to Magic.

IMO Kareem's age 23-33 seasons were superior to Hakeem's over the same ages (and I don't think I have to look at their respective age 34-39 season to see who comes out on top there).

As for his defense, I used to believe that in today's game Kareem would have been at least as good as Mutombo in that regard. But looking at their rebounding and blocked shot % during their respective prime years, and considering how his counting stats in those categories were inflated by the pace of the game at the time, that's probably too generous.

A much more mobile Yao might be a better comparison.

JBIIRockets
01-18-2013, 11:37 PM
Hakeem won a championship in the modern day NBA, with no "Robin" in 1994. Who else has done that?

Even Jordan didn't do that. Kareem didnt do that.

Maybe Dirk with the Mavs in 2011? Bill Walton's 77 Blazers?

How dominate was Hakeem in the mid 80s. He was incredible then too. Not as polished, but still a major star.

Hakeem is the best center in the history of the NBA.

PhiSlammaJamma
01-19-2013, 01:46 AM
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/tOCMH_6NMBI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

tinman
01-20-2013, 12:26 AM
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/jQej9wLRlog" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

tinman
01-20-2013, 12:27 AM
Meh, Horry just being a homer.

he played more seasons with the Lakers and Spurs than he did with the Rockets

wolvdog316
01-20-2013, 05:59 AM
When the greatest players of all time...come out to endorse a certain player...that says something. Jordan, would take Hakeem. Clutch Bob, would take Hakeem. Shaq, would take Hakeem. Me, you, your friends we have our opinions. We like to think ours is right, but in hindsight we never played the game professionally, never went up against the best on a nightly basis. Those men did, and they would take Hakeem before anybody else. I want to say Kobe said the same thing in 98, could be wrong.

He's top ten all time in steals..for god sakes. That's mind boggling. Mind blowing rather. A center in top ten in steals. What Hakeem did to David Robinson, has never been done before, and might not be done again in our lifetime. I've never seen two dominant, HOF players, in the playoffs...and one just make the other look like he was a rookie straight out of the Dleague.

And I was blessed, we were blessed, to witness the greatest center of all time play for us and bring us home 2 World Championships. I have no complaints